| Revision as of 14:00, 16 July 2015 editLegobot (talk | contribs)Bots1,667,388 edits Adding RFC ID.← Previous edit | Revision as of 14:47, 16 July 2015 edit undoAndyTheGrump (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers54,013 edits →Survey: opposeNext edit → | ||
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| *'''Support''' by OP. When several editors who are members of the same project suddenly show up at an article and start making changes to make the article compliant with ]s, the opposing editor(s), particularly newbies, tend to believe they are being tag-teamed or confronted by an advocacy. This addition will help them sort through their suspicions and look to self-analysis first and actual causes for the disruption rather than pointing fingers and assuming. <font style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">]</font><sup>]]</sup> 13:09, 16 July 2015 (UTC) | *'''Support''' by OP. When several editors who are members of the same project suddenly show up at an article and start making changes to make the article compliant with ]s, the opposing editor(s), particularly newbies, tend to believe they are being tag-teamed or confronted by an advocacy. This addition will help them sort through their suspicions and look to self-analysis first and actual causes for the disruption rather than pointing fingers and assuming. <font style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">]</font><sup>]]</sup> 13:09, 16 July 2015 (UTC) | ||
| *'''Oppose'''. A weasel-worded attack on Misplaced Pages projects, as is self-evident from Atsme's comment above. The proposed wording reads "may even ''appear to be'' members of a project", but Atsme states that the intended target is unequivocally project members who 'suddenly show up at an article'. If there is evidence that Misplaced Pages projects are engaging in advocacy (a claim for which this essay provides precisely zero evidence), rather than merely 'showing up' at articles within their remit (which is what Wikiprojects are ''for''), it needs to be dealt with properly, not just mentioned in passing in questionably-worded advice to newbies. As with so much else within this essay, this 'advice' invites new contributors to look for 'bias' when meeting opposition to their editing, and implies that opposition from multiple experienced contributors is ''evidence'' of 'advocacy'. Sure, it then goes on to provide mealy-mouthed calls for self-examination, but the damage has already been done - the essay promotes a suspicious and conspiracy-seeking mindset that is totally at odds with collegial editing. The proper advice to newbies when in disagreement with the sort of experienced contributors who customarily make up Wikiprojects is to ''discuss issues with them'', and then to ''engage in relevant methods of dispute resolution'' if and when such discussions fail to achieve progress. Telling new contributors who run into problems that Wikiproject members may be members of advocacy-cabals is a sure-fire way to create drama, but a piss-poor way to create and maintain an encyclopaedia. ] (]) 14:47, 16 July 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ===Threaded discussion=== | ===Threaded discussion=== | ||
Revision as of 14:47, 16 July 2015
| This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Advocacy ducks page. |
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Archives: 1, 2, 3Auto-archiving period: 30 days  |
 | Misplaced Pages essays Low‑impact  | |||||||||
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 | This page was nominated for deletion on 23 May 2015. The result of the discussion was keep. |
removing the template of a guidance
Could you help me understand the nature of your objection? I left an edit summary so "unexplained" is incorrect. The original author even thanked me for changing to the proper template, so I'm puzzled. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 18:31, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
- I am pasting Short Brigade Harvester Boris here from my userpage since it is pure article discussion. FYI: teh word "Nope" in the edit summary is no explanation. the fact that atsme thanked you for your edit is irrelevant to me.--Wuerzele (talk) 21:34, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
- If I may please interject with a few of my thoughts on the subject of essay vs guidance essay. Considering what we've been through and the distrust expressed by a few editors regarding the motivation behind this essay, I think we have done our best to demonstrate its "worth" but now we need to see how it's going to perform. In other words, it has to prove its worth. I respectfully request that we all try to focus on the big picture, not the small things that can be upgraded/modified/deleted later once the essay has earned its place. I understand both sides of this debate and appreciate both positions but I also believe in compromise especially when it comes to trivial matters. I have always welcomed collaboration, substantive criticism and suggestions for improvement, and we have done our best to accommodate both perspectives. Now it's time for the essay to prove its worth. Wuerzele, you have been a good collaborator and helped improve this essay with your contributions. Short Brigade Harvester Boris, you expressed your concerns and I have done my best to address them but it is WP's essay now. I think we all want what's good for the project which is why I have addressed the concerns expressed by Jytdog and other editors who questioned or disproved certain aspects of the essay. I now respectfully request that we please let the essay have a chance to perform and see what happens. I realize some editors will never recommend it, but let's wait and see, ok? I think it's going to surprise us....hopefully in a good way.
--Atsme 23:03, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
- thanks Atsme. I am waiting to see what boris has to say- he did the unexplained ("Nope") content removal.--Wuerzele (talk) 23:26, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
- If I may please interject with a few of my thoughts on the subject of essay vs guidance essay. Considering what we've been through and the distrust expressed by a few editors regarding the motivation behind this essay, I think we have done our best to demonstrate its "worth" but now we need to see how it's going to perform. In other words, it has to prove its worth. I respectfully request that we all try to focus on the big picture, not the small things that can be upgraded/modified/deleted later once the essay has earned its place. I understand both sides of this debate and appreciate both positions but I also believe in compromise especially when it comes to trivial matters. I have always welcomed collaboration, substantive criticism and suggestions for improvement, and we have done our best to accommodate both perspectives. Now it's time for the essay to prove its worth. Wuerzele, you have been a good collaborator and helped improve this essay with your contributions. Short Brigade Harvester Boris, you expressed your concerns and I have done my best to address them but it is WP's essay now. I think we all want what's good for the project which is why I have addressed the concerns expressed by Jytdog and other editors who questioned or disproved certain aspects of the essay. I now respectfully request that we please let the essay have a chance to perform and see what happens. I realize some editors will never recommend it, but let's wait and see, ok? I think it's going to surprise us....hopefully in a good way.
archives
thanks for fixing the archives albino. this one-click archiver is not a great tool if it moves things to the wrong place as it did here and here. Jytdog (talk) 14:07, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
- Not a problem, it was a chance to learn something. I kind of like having the archives in the header with the search function. The problem is there were no archives 2-9. archive 10 is now a redirect, Im debating having it deleted G6 because when archive 10 is needed this will probably be forgotten. We could also just leve it and when 10 is needed remove the redirect. AlbinoFerret
- yep i would advise G6ing it. Jytdog (talk) 14:14, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
- Just placed the G6 tag. AlbinoFerret 14:20, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
- AF - I'll ask T13 if there's a work-around. What appears to be happening, and I didn't even notice it when I archived, is that the One-Click defaults to whatever I had it set to for my user TP archives. I guess it doesn't automatically adjust to the relevant article TP archive and has to be manually set. Thank you for fixing it. I apologize for the inconvenience. Atsme 20:42, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
- I like to fix things Atsme, so no inconvenience. You probably copied the code from your talk page to this one and forgot to change the archive number. It was easy to fix once I figured it out. AlbinoFerret 23:15, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
- AF - I'll ask T13 if there's a work-around. What appears to be happening, and I didn't even notice it when I archived, is that the One-Click defaults to whatever I had it set to for my user TP archives. I guess it doesn't automatically adjust to the relevant article TP archive and has to be manually set. Thank you for fixing it. I apologize for the inconvenience. Atsme 20:42, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
- Just placed the G6 tag. AlbinoFerret 14:20, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
- yep i would advise G6ing it. Jytdog (talk) 14:14, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
- It's working properly, in Special:Diff/662259393 you had the counter set to 10, which is why it archived there. I just tested and confirmed it is indeed working correctly now. Happy archiving. —
{{U|Technical 13}}17:34, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
RfC: Is the following addition relevant in the Signs of advocacy section?
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Should the section Signs of advocacy contain the following additions to help editors, particularly newbies, recognize that project teams, while they may appear to be an advocacy, is not necessarily the case and to self-analyze while attempting to correctly identify the actual cause of the disruption? Additions in green text: ...and may even appear to be members of a project comprising groups of contributors who often collaborate as a team to improve Misplaced Pages. The latter makes it all the more important to correctly recognize the cause of the disruption and make sure it isn't you. You might see AVDucks in topics that deal with politics, religion, CAM, renewable energy generation, various new technologies, national and ethnic conflicts, life sciences or any other topics that have a following. Advocates almost always demonstrate WP:BIAS which is their primary catalyst for engaging in long-term tendentious editing that is fundamentally noncompliant with NPOV; their goal being to impose and maintain their POV in an article or related articles that serve to further their cause. Do not mistake GF attempts of project teams to achieve accuracy, compliance with NPOV, and/or adherence to WP:PAG as advocacy. Atsme 13:09, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
Survey
- Support by OP. When several editors who are members of the same project suddenly show up at an article and start making changes to make the article compliant with WP:PAGs, the opposing editor(s), particularly newbies, tend to believe they are being tag-teamed or confronted by an advocacy. This addition will help them sort through their suspicions and look to self-analysis first and actual causes for the disruption rather than pointing fingers and assuming. Atsme 13:09, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose. A weasel-worded attack on Misplaced Pages projects, as is self-evident from Atsme's comment above. The proposed wording reads "may even appear to be members of a project", but Atsme states that the intended target is unequivocally project members who 'suddenly show up at an article'. If there is evidence that Misplaced Pages projects are engaging in advocacy (a claim for which this essay provides precisely zero evidence), rather than merely 'showing up' at articles within their remit (which is what Wikiprojects are for), it needs to be dealt with properly, not just mentioned in passing in questionably-worded advice to newbies. As with so much else within this essay, this 'advice' invites new contributors to look for 'bias' when meeting opposition to their editing, and implies that opposition from multiple experienced contributors is evidence of 'advocacy'. Sure, it then goes on to provide mealy-mouthed calls for self-examination, but the damage has already been done - the essay promotes a suspicious and conspiracy-seeking mindset that is totally at odds with collegial editing. The proper advice to newbies when in disagreement with the sort of experienced contributors who customarily make up Wikiprojects is to discuss issues with them, and then to engage in relevant methods of dispute resolution if and when such discussions fail to achieve progress. Telling new contributors who run into problems that Wikiproject members may be members of advocacy-cabals is a sure-fire way to create drama, but a piss-poor way to create and maintain an encyclopaedia. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:47, 16 July 2015 (UTC)