Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style: Difference between revisions

Browse history interactively ← Previous edit Next edit →Content deleted Content addedVisual WikitextInline

Revision as of 11:40, 19 July 2015 editDarkfrog24 (talk \| contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users16,715 edits →MOS:GNL and the term actress ← Previous edit		Revision as of 11:53, 19 July 2015 edit undoFlyer22 Frozen (talk \| contribs)365,630 edits →Use of commas at the Cougar (slang) article: new sectionNext edit →
Line 187:		Line 187:

	{{talk-reflist}}		{{talk-reflist}}

			== Use of commas at the ] article ==

			Opinions are needed on the following matter: ]. A ] for it is . ] (]) 11:53, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

Revision as of 11:53, 19 July 2015

Skip to table of contents

Manual of Style

	This page falls within the scope of the Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style, a collaborative effort focused on enhancing clarity, consistency, and cohesiveness across the Manual of Style (MoS) guidelines by addressing inconsistencies, refining language, and integrating guidance effectively.Manual of StyleWikipedia:WikiProject Manual of StyleTemplate:WikiProject Manual of StyleManual of Style
	This page falls under the contentious topics procedure and is given additional attention, as it closely associated to the English Misplaced Pages Manual of Style, and the article titles policy. Both areas are subjects of debate. Contributors are urged to review the awareness criteria carefully and exercise caution when editing.
	For information on Misplaced Pages's approach to the establishment of new policies and guidelines, refer to WP:PROPOSAL. Additionally, guidance on how to contribute to the development and revision of Misplaced Pages policies of Misplaced Pages's policy and guideline documents is available, offering valuable insights and recommendations.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Manual of Style page.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Shortcut

WT:MOS

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141, 142, 143, 144, 145, 146, 147, 148, 149, 150, 151, 152, 153, 154, 155, 156, 157, 158, 159, 160, 161, 162, 163, 164, 165, 166, 167, 168, 169, 170, 171, 172, 173, 174, 175, 176, 177, 178, 179, 180, 181, 182, 183, 184, 185, 186, 187, 188, 189, 190, 191, 192, 193, 194, 195, 196, 197, 198, 199, 200, 201, 202, 203, 204, 205, 206, 207, 208, 209, 210, 211, 212, 213, 214, 215, 216, 217, 218, 219, 220, 221, 222, 223, 224, 225, 226, 227, 228Auto-archiving period: 7 days

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Manual of Style page.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Template:MOS/R

For a list of suggested abbreviations for referring to style guides, see this page.

WP:SHE for steam locomotives as well as ships

It's recognised that there is a long tradition of regarding ships as "she", and this is echoed (usually) at Misplaced Pages. It is not always enforced, particularly for male-named ships, but it is recognised.

This tradition is also applied to steam locomotives. Perhaps not quite so widely, as even more named locomotives have an implicit male gender. However it is still commonplace. We also have a source for this right back to the start of their history. At the 1830 opening of the Liverpool and Manchester Railway, actress and diarist Fanny Kemble gives us this well-known letter,

“

We were introduced to the little engine which was to drag us along the rails. She (for they make these curious little fire horses all mares) consisted of . She goes upon two wheels, which are her feet...

”

We should extend WP:SHE to cover locomotives, where appropriate, as well as ships. This is to clarify reversions such as this, obviously one I wouldn't support. Andy Dingley (talk) 20:00, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Can you show that this use of "she" has continued into modern times in non-specialist publications (that it is not only steam engine enthusiasts who use "she")? A Google search for "style guide"+"ship as she" produces many relevant results but "style guide"+"steam engine as she" produces none. Widening my search to "style guide"+"engine as she" (no "steam") gave only one relevant site, a hobby magazine site, which only mentions pronouns in passing and at first glance may not meet Misplaced Pages's WP:RS standards. Do you know of any style guides that say to use "she" or any formally published books that do?

For the particular diff that you cited, Redrose was actually reverting a categorical change from "it" to "she," putting the article back the way it was. Even if we extended WP:SHE to steam locomotives, that would only mean that Misplaced Pages would have two acceptable practices, so it is Redrose's version that would stand because it was there first. Darkfrog24 (talk) 21:39, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

The Rail Safety and Standards Board (RSSB) maintains their own style guide, as does the Australian Railway Historical Society. Neither mentions the gender of locomotives, suggesting that this convention isn't even widely used by specialists. Pburka (talk) 23:47, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Do a Google search on "locomotive as she". --Guy Macon (talk) 20:11, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

That seems to show that the usage fell out of favour sometime before 1915. In fact, there's an amusing (and dated) note in this journal of Railway and Locomotive Engineering noting (in 1910) that locomotives are no longer called "she." Pburka (talk) 00:19, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Given the evidence above that using "she" of trains is obsolete, I oppose expanding WP:SHE to cover trains; I support continuing to refer to them as "it". -sche (talk) 00:23, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

So we don't have coverage before 1915? If there really is evidence to indicate that this form is obsolete after 1915 (or whenever), or a regional thing, or only applied to locos with feminine nameplates, or only applied to locos with neutral names, then we can qualify the guideline accordingly. Andy Dingley (talk) 01:39, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

We don't write in period dialect, regardless of the topic. Can you imagine how bizarre it would be if we wrote about Elizabeth I in Shakespearean English? Pburka (talk) 02:14, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Verily. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ≼ 23:02, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

"She" for anything beside a female still sounds like a quirky fringe habit to this landlubber. Ships, trains, floating logs and rolling logs are "it". But yes, there's a shaky consensus for ships. I won't help build one for trains. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:24, July 1, 2015 (UTC)

There is (in Britain at least) a certain kind of man who likes to call his motorcar "she", but most people don't. Isn't this a rather similar case? -- Alarics (talk) 13:00, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Here in Canada, too. And for their motorcycles, snowmobiles or any other "real beauty" they ride. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:38, July 3, 2015 (UTC)

"There is (in Britain at least) a certain kind of man who likes to call his motorcar "she"..." Sounds like a bit of a snide, sexist comment. My mother calls her car "she"! Not because she's a woman, but because she considers it traditional to call all vehicles "she". So it's not just men being sexist. -- Necrothesp (talk) 17:47, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

I only just found out about this discussion - and it's my revert being discussed. --Redrose64 (talk) 13:59, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

It Is Not All About You. An issue you seem to have trouble with.

This is a general principle. So it's raised on a general style noticeboard, where such issues of style get discussed. Look above, a whole bunch of editors who seem to be interested in such things have managed to see it. It's of relevance to a project too, so it's raised there.

You very clearly have no problem in finding my other edits and either reverting them or changing them to your one true way. Don't expect personalised notifications too. Andy Dingley (talk) 16:45, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Are there multiple parallel discussions in progress? That's probably undesirable. Please share links. Pburka (talk) 17:08, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

@Andy Dingley: You mean Bob Essery? If you look at its history, you'll see that I have made five edits over as many years; when I edit a page, I often watch it. I "found it" today because it was already on my watchlist; and since it was edited today, it showed in my watchlist today. The fact that it was you that edited is immaterial: I'm certainly not "hounding" you (if I had been, perhaps I would have found this thread 36 hours earlier?). @Pburka: see User talk:Andy Dingley#Bob Essery. --Redrose64 (talk) 17:19, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

User talk discussions don't count as undesirable parallel discussions. And a whole ship load of the above invective needs to relocate to user talk, BTW. Heh. If you two want to accuse each other of stalking, sexism, and other interpersonal malfeasance, it's not an MOS matter. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ≼ 23:01, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Oppose as unworkable for locomotives. Whilst ships generally have neutral or feminine names, this is not the case for locomotives. Could you refer to King George V as "she"? Flying Scotswoman perhaps?! Optimist on the run (talk) 17:16, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Oppose extending the use of feminine pronouns to railroad locomotives. I support the continued use of feminine pronouns for vessels, but oppose their use for locomotives. The distinction is obvious based on the almost non-existent usage within the modern railroad industry vs continuing and still prevalent usage within the English-speaking navies, shipping industry and yachting community. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 17:52, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Oppose. This fails the WP:SSF test. We permit the practice for ships because it's in fairly common (though declining) usage still in everyday English. The fact that various other camps have adopted the practice for some other conveyances, in their specialized in-group context, isn't comparable. I know lots of Southerners who refer to their cars, rifles, and all sorts of other things as "she" and "her", but we don't go with that "convention" either (not even as an ENGVAR matter. >;-) — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ≼ 23:01, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
Oppose—referring to vehicles or machines with female pronouns is all about male ownership of women. And RGloucester, digging up etymological niceties is irrelevant: if it looks sexist to many people, it is sexist. It's about time we called a halt to language that normalises being-male. Does anyone care about the gender-gap crisis on Wikimedia projects, incidentally? Tony (talk) 11:55, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Please alter section "Gender-neutral language"

Although I myself support gender-neutral language in Misplaced Pages, I just can't control the fact that many Wikipedians don't, and the important thing I must realize is that it is just an essay. But this particular page (specifically 16.2) is talking about it as if it were policy. Please try to alter the section (not the words describing the link to the essay, but the main paragraphs in the article) to make the words it uses consistent with the fact that it's just an essay. Georgia guy (talk) 19:04, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

To clarify what was going on, I tried to alter the term "man-made" (which is gender-generic man) in the article Swimming pool and I was reverted. Although I tried to explain the meaning of my edit in 3 different Misplaced Pages pages (the talk page of Thomas W (the user who reverted my edit,) the talk page of the GNL essay, and the talk page of Swimming pool.) But the users who disagree with my edit tried even harder to say "no, we need to keep the term man-made". Any thoughts on what to do?? (Note, this time the actual thing I'm suggesting is to alter the words in section 16.2 of WP:MOS so that they match the fact that it's not a policy.) Georgia guy (talk) 19:22, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Looks like forum shopping to me. Thomas.W wasn't the first editor to revert you, an IP was. Georgia Guy didn't use BRD but went to WT:GNL and made two threads and when BRD was pointed out to him, he said "I didn't really think about taking it to the talk page of Swimming pool as a better choice than taking it here; I was informed of the statement that only people interested in swimming pools would participate in revealing their thoughts." but failed to produce a diff when asked. Then he took it to Talk:Swimming_pool#Man-made...and now here. I joined in at WT:GNL originally and went to the other talk page after his much less than neutral posting.
— Berean Hunter (talk) 20:22, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

At best, Georgia guy's post here is an overreaction, proposing changes to a site-wide guideline which also covers e.g. "generic he" because of a single dispute about the phrase "man-made". -sche (talk) 20:33, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

The key statement is that they're telling me that WP:GNL is an essay, not a guideline. They understand that "man-made" breaks WP:GNL, but note the key statement. Georgia guy (talk) 20:52, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

It's an essay. It also happens not to provide a suitable alternative for "man-made", so it's actually a useless essay in this case. IMO man-made is gender-neutral, but I took a shot at changing the page anyway. (@Thomas.W: since you were unmentioned here (lovely forumshopping, indeed).) I see no reason to change the MOS for this single dispute. --Izno (talk) 21:09, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes, it is forumshopping, and an essay that is being repeatedly waved at people as if it was a policy. "Artifical" is better than "made by people (as opposed to being natural)" as Georgia guy wanted it to read, but "man-made" is definitely better. And also gender-neutral, as we have repeatedly tried to make Georgia guy understand, to no avail. First on my talk page, started by Georgia guy (referring to WP:GNL as if it was a policy), then on Misplaced Pages talk:Gender-neutral language (started with a lie about me by Georgia guy, probably to make me look really bad there in order to get sympathy and support), then on Talk:Swimming pool and now here. Thomas.W 21:28, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Actually, "use gender-neutral language" is guideline-level. Only the details in the essay are essay-level. If we should change anything, it would be to upgrade the best-supported parts of the essay to guideline status. As to whether "man-made" in particular counts as gender-neutral, I'm all for consulting sources, but if there's an even better word, like "artificial," then why not use that? Darkfrog24 (talk) 21:45, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

I normally would, but some Wikipedians like "man-made" better. Any actual reason?? (Note: this discussion really makes me feel we need more female Wikipedians; it should rise to at least 25% sometime soon. The fact that 85% of Wikipedians are male is one part of what makes so many Wikipedians not consider GNL important.) Georgia guy (talk) 21:49, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Well "man-made" strikes me as sexist, but I think we should follow the sources. American Heritage Dictionary, says it's sufficiently gender-neutral, but NCTE and Canada Language Portal say otherwise. What that means is that if someone suggested taking "man-made" out of the GNL essay, I'd be willing to dig up sources that address the word specifically, and I'd support removal if that's what they said. But even if the sources say it's okay, that doesn't mean that we have to say "man-made," not when a truly neutral alternative is available.

It seems to me that the best thing to do at Swimming pool is ~~acknowledge that no one broke any rules by saying "man-made" and then maybe they won't be so defensive~~ line up the sources and see if "man-made" really does fall under "use gender-neutral language" or whether it's a bad example.

Where do they keep track of who's male and female? Darkfrog24 (talk) 22:41, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

This is exactly the sort of reductio ad absurdum logic which drives most Misplaced Pages editors to distraction and brings MOS and MOS regulars into disrepute. Is the time-tested phrase "man-made" gender exclusionary in some way? Can it be reasonably interpreted to exclude female swimming pool builders? Is someone actually offended by the term "man-made"? If so, may I suggest that you stop searching for offense where none was intended, no offense may be reasonably inferred, and the intended meaning is clear? To reasonable persons, the phrase "man-made" is sufficiently gender-neutral, so let's close this silly discussion and stop encouraging edit wars among ideologically motivated advocates who create little and disrupt much. If not, let's go ahead and bowdlerize Neil Armstrong's moon landing quote, too, because "mankind" may be interpreted to exclude 51% of the human population using the same sort of "logic." Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:10, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

In response to your statement that "man-made" is a gender-generic term, do you mean that this is true even to the strongest advocates of GNL?? Note that the essay lists situations GNL does not apply to. "The Ascent of Man" is the title of a work and GNL should be ignored. For some reason, I appear to be one of the few Wikipedians who really thinks GNL is important despite it saying to do so in section 16.2 of WP:MOS. Georgia guy (talk) 18:43, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

No, lots of editors feel that gender-neutral language is important, me being one of them. Very few of those editors seem to share your interpretation of what is and what isn't gender-neutral, though. Thomas.W 19:22, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

The essay agrees with me totally. You must realize it's important not to confuse gender-neutral language with "gender-neutral" meaning "referring to both genders" as a definition of a term. The word "man" referring to both genders is not gender-neutral language. "Human being" is. Georgia guy (talk) 19:44, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

EDIT CONFLICT: However many Wikipedians (including myself), and Oxford Dictionaries, NCTE, and Purdue, to name a few. Georgia Guy isn't pulling "Man-made is sexist" out of nowhere. Still, because there are other source that do not treat "man-made" as sexist, I wouldn't support a rule banning the term from Misplaced Pages. "Artificial" is available, though, so this issue is moot. "Aeroplane" doesn't need to be the worst word ever for us to replace it with "fixed-wing aircraft." Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:49, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Now, how is the word "aeroplane" related to gender-neutral language?? I don't see any way it relates to GNL. Georgia guy (talk) 19:57, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

"Aeroplane"/"fixed-wing" is an example of a word that is replaced with another word not because anyone who uses "aeroplace" is a malicious Anglophile who hates the American spelling but rather because "fixed-wing" renders the need to consider national variety moot. WP:COMMONALITY serves as a good model for words like "man-made," for which the sources are split on whether it is acceptable or not. Because "artificial" definitely isn't sexist, it is preferable to a word that, if interpreted very generously, reminds people of sexism. It sets a precedent for, "Okay, assume that I'm wrong and I'm just overreacting to 'man-made,' and everything that says it's sexist is being misguidedly PC. Humor me and say 'artificial' anyway." Darkfrog24 (talk) 02:28, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @Georgia guy:"The word "man" referring to both genders is not gender-neutral language" is exactly the kind of interpretation that very few editors here seem to share. Thomas.W 19:52, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Now, what words do you think using to refer to both genders is gender-neutral language?? Common answers to this question include human being, human, and person. Georgia guy (talk) 19:57, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Per personhood, "person" isn't distinct enough to replace "human". Per my own senses, hearing or reading "human-made" makes me think of gender neutrality, rather than whatever the sentence it's in is about. "Man-made" doesn't make me think about adult male humans in the same distracting way, because it's merely a long-established term for synthetic or artificial.

If we're replacing "man-made" with anything, I'd go for "synthetic" or "artificial". InedibleHulk (talk) 22:56, July 3, 2015 (UTC)

I would as well. But any words you have difficulty replacing with anything to follow GNL?? Georgia guy (talk) 23:43, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

I don't understand the question. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:59, July 4, 2015 (UTC)

Feminazi is neutral as far as GNL, right? After all it may be applied to either males or females or whatever someone identifies as.
— Berean Hunter (talk) 00:22, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Neither "synthetic" nor "artificial" are suitable substitutes for "man-made", as they rely on foreign roots that are complicated for the anglophone to understand. "Man-made" is clear and Germanic, and requires none of foreign confusion. RGloucester — ☎ 00:49, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Using your rule, "cow meat" is better than "beef". "Beef" is a word of Latin origin; "cow" is a native English word. Georgia guy (talk) 00:57, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Cow meat - it's what's for swæsende! Blueboar (talk) 01:15, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Now, please make sure you know what I mean correctly. This has nothing to do with how cow meat tastes. It's an analogy to RGloucester's statement that "mad-made" is a better term than "artificial"; it's merely about the terms "cow meat" and "beef". Georgia guy (talk) 01:24, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Using your logic, "cow meat" isn't gender neutral as cow refers to females of the species.

— Berean Hunter (talk) 01:46, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Can we still call this sort of thing bullshit, or does that offend the bigger half of the domestic English bovine market? InedibleHulk (talk) 02:01, July 4, 2015 (UTC)

Ha! On the off-chance that BH here is serious, I'd say no it's not sexist to say "cow" literally because "cow" is still commonly used to refer to all domestic bovines and "man" is not used to refer to all Homo sapiens, at least not anymore.

@RGloucester: "artificial" was already around in Middle English . I don't think we need to worry about confusing anyone with foreign terminology in this case. Darkfrog24 (talk) 02:42, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

That's udderly ridiculous. See the note; it is gender neutral only when the plural cows is used but cow "unambiguously means the female".☺
— Berean Hunter (talk) 03:09, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

I don't think you herd me. Hoof it on over to meaning 1.1 . Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:42, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Artificial is also about 10x more common than man-made, which suggests that anyone who is familiar with man-made will be familiar with artificial. -sche (talk) 02:49, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

That's because "artificial" has a more specific and academic meaning, not because "man-made" is more in line with the English of the Folk. RGloucester — ☎ 04:15, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Nowadays it is just about unacceptable to use gender-exclusive language. On WMF sites we have a gender-gap crisis, too, which may not be on the radar of the men who want to keep old-speak alive and kicking, but we need to move on. Sexist language should not be tolerated by the editing community. Tony (talk) 02:56, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
- So we are uncensored but should be intolerant? Are you referring to article space or everywhere in general?
  — Berean Hunter (talk)

If it weren't indented as a reply to Tony's comment, I wouldn't be able to tell whether you were suggesting that criticism of gender-neutral language was intolerant, or criticism of non-gender-neutral/sexist language was intolerant. Point being: critics of gender-neutral language have no room to accuse critics of sexist language of "intolerance". -sche (talk) 03:49, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

I don't view "man-made" as sexist, given that "man" refers to mankind. It is gender neutral etymologically: "man" in the gender neutral sense existed prior to sex-specific meaning of "male men". There are no legs to stand on for those that think "man-made" is "sexist", because the "man" in "man-made" has never referred to male men. If we were really to go down such an absurd road, we'd have to remove the "man" from "woman", would we not? Absurdity building on absurdity, that's all it is. RGloucester — ☎ 04:15, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Except that you're wrong: before the Interpretation Act 1850, the wordings "he" and "man" were interpreted a "gender-neutral" "when there was a penalty to be incurred but never when there was a privilege to be conferred"—precisely because, in everyday speech, "man" was not gender-neutral. That it was is a myth based on usage in non-English langauges. As Baranowski points out, "The rationalisation that 'man embraces woman' was virtually unknown in the fifteenth century"—and where it was known was likely limited to those who spoke French or Latin. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 11:32, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Your explanation is wrong. You are going back to the Victorian period, rather than to the appropriate time. The gender neutral definition of "man" is much older than the Victorian period. Male men are weremen and female men are women (an evolution of wif). Both are men. RGloucester — ☎ 17:52, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Is a wereman a wolf that turns into a guy for full moons? InedibleHulk (talk) 22:24, July 4, 2015 (UTC)

The 15th century is "the Victorian period"?! Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 21:58, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Is that really how anglophones use those words today?? Georgia guy (talk) 18:35, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

"Vicious" used to mean "subject to vice" but it doesn't mean that now. That "man" had a non-sexist origin is not in dispute. The state of the matter is that some reputable sources on English usage maintain that "man-made" is sexist and others actively maintain that it is acceptable (which was not the case with the generic he). I certainly prefer non-sexist terms—and "man-made" is sexist—but I wouldn't want a rule banning it at this time. Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:42, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

That "man" had a non-sexist origin is not in dispute.: no, it's disputed: read what I wrote above. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 22:06, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

How about "not relevant"? Hmmm... "Academic"! That's the one. It's fun and informative but does not immediately pertain to the outcome of GeorgiaGuy's request. On that vein, I have seen Misplaced Pages-threshold RS supporting the claim that the pre-modern-English version of "man" meant "human." Darkfrog24 (talk) 02:03, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

It kinda-sorta did: the Anglo-Saxon mann meant "person". Anglo-Saxon is as English as Latin is French, and man had ceased to be gender-neutral already by Chaucer's time, by which time both the "singular they" and "he or she" were standard English, attesting to the foreigness of the idea that "man" or "he" could include "woman" or "she". Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 05:47, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Even if it did, it no longer does. Basically saying it's not sexist anymore is etymological fallacy. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 02:12, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes, that's what I mean. The "was the root gender-neutral?" is the academic part of this discussion. Darkfrog24 (talk) 05:04, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

It still does. You do not determine that perfectly good words are eliminated because of your own skewed take on what they mean. When someone says "man-made", they do not mean to say that women could not possibly make such a thing. They mean that the object was made by man. Regardless, I once again presume to ask you why we should not eliminate "women", as the "man" in said word has the same origin. Take your politics and thrust them away. We've no room here. RGloucester — ☎ 05:13, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

It's politics that made "man" legally gender-neutral in the first place, as I've already provided a source for, and your appeals to "folk" usage got tiring long ago—especially since "folk" usage has a centuries-long preference for gender-neutral terms like the "singular they" and rejects "man encompasses woman" usages such as "man" for "people" and "he" for "he or she" as an unnatural, bookish affectation. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 05:39, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Regarding “I once again presume to ask you why we should not eliminate ‘women’”: Has anyone ever used “women” (or “woman”) in a gender-neutral way to mean people in general? I don’t believe I’ve ever seen it. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 10:32, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

First of all, Curly, you once again fail to recognise that the word "man" began as gender neutral word, long before that one minor political document. Secondly, IP, it isn't about "gender-neutrality", clearly, because if it were there would be no objection to "man" at all. It is about what others here describe as "sexist language". If "man-made" is sexist because it contains "man", surely "women" must be sexist? RGloucester — ☎ 14:36, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

I "failed to recognize" no such thing—what you've failed to recognize is that (a) "man" ceased to be neutral at least as early as the late Middle Ages; and (b) mann was only gender neutral in Anglo-Saxon, an anscestor language to English that is so far removed from the modern language as to be unrecognizable as English (or are you going to berate us for failing to decline as nouns as the oppressed "folk" are wont to do?) Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 21:18, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

You're wrong. "Man" has been used in it's gender-neutral original meaning into our times, and is still being used in that meaning: , , , and many more. Even here on Misplaced Pages, with Evolution of man being a redirect to Human evolution and Origin of man being a redirect to Anthropogeny. Redirects that exist because of people typing those terms when looking for those articles, with roughly 1 out of 7 looking for Anthropogeny going by way of Origin of man. Thomas.W 21:32, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Please try to follow what people are saying—at no point has anyone claimed that "man" has never been used in a gender-neutral fashion in our times. The claim is that such usage is exceptional, that "man" has long ceased to be inherently gender neutral, and that the vast majority of English speakers consider "man" inherently male, even if their textbooks try to convince them otherwise. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 21:54, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Okay, I think I understand the problem… you’re trying to apply rigid logic to a social matter. “Man-made” isn’t considered sexist because it contains the letters M-A-N in it, or because it shares the same etymological root as a word for male humans, or for any similar reason. It’s considered sexist because a majority of irrational people (as most of us are) feel that it’s sexist—regardless of whether other stuff exists. If human language were a completely rational beast, things like etymological fallacy (which someone else mentioned) would generally not be possible. But they are, because it’s not, because its users are not. This approach won’t work for much the same reason that a systematic approach to something like COMMONNAME won’t work; there’s too much grey, too much uncertainty. So we (as the consensus) choose to go with what seems, to us, to be the most widely accepted in modern usage, regardless of traditional usage. I hope that all makes sense, but I’m basically explaining that we don’t make perfect sense and that isn’t likely to change. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 15:15, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Great. So now we know that there is nothing behind the drive to eliminate "man-made", and similar words, other than emotion, and an encylopaedia is no place for emotion. Leave your passions at the door, or don't enter into these halls at all. The majority of people do not think "man-made" is sexist. It is a standard construction, used by most people on a daily basis. The bizarre emotions of a few disruptive agitators does not change the meaning of a word. RGloucester — ☎ 16:37, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

RG, no one said that the only reason for this rule is emotion. As for emotion's role, getting pissed off because someone used racist or sexist or politically problematic language distracts the reader from our content. And it's not a few disruptive agitators who don't like sexist writing. It's Oxford Dictionaries, the National Council of Teachers of English, Purdue Owl, and many, many Wikieditors.

But you did raise an interesting thought question about "woman." It is sexist to use a gender-specific word to mean "everyone" because that makes it look like people of the other gender aren't there. Here's a case in which using "women" would be sexist: "All the nurses in our hospital are capable, professional women." 1) If the hospital has even one male nurse, then he's just been cut out. 2) This suggests that the nurses are capable and professional because they are female. It equates womanhood with professionalism and so disservices even men who aren't nurses at that hospital. "Capable, professional people" does not have either of these problems. Darkfrog24 (talk) 17:21, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

No, "man" is not gender-specific for the final time. That's why it is in "woman". "Woman" is an evolution of "wifman" (wif being the equivalent of modern "wife"), meaning "female man". The original male counterpart was "wereman". The "man" that exists in "woman" is exactly the same "man" that exists in "man-made". They have the same origin. If one is supposedly sexist, the other must also be sexist. There is no way around this. All arguments that "man-made" is sexist are rubbish, absolutely. There is simply no basis for such a construction, other than that people like you enjoy muckraking for your own benefit, not because someone who says "man-made" means that the such an object is made only by male men. This is a grand semiotic failure. RGloucester — ☎ 17:32, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Language changes. It is no longer neutral. Most style guides recommend to avoid use of "man" or "he" as neutral. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 17:49, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

+1 to EvergreenFir's comment of 02:12, 5 July 2015 (UTC). I must assume that many of the participants in this discussion are cretins who are certainly not nice -- by which I mean, of course, the original meaning of those words, good Christians who are not ignorant. Nonetheless, it does seem to be falling into etymological fallacy... -sche (talk) 22:23, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

So who was criticizing? I asked two questions. We differ in our opinion on gender neutral...I contend that mankind and man-made are gender neutral...and I'm not accusing; he's the one that said that certain language shouldn't be tolerated but as far as I can tell, no one has used any sexist language in this thread. So, I'm asking because it sounds like he's implying that if it isn't gender neutral then it must be sexist (why was sexist brought up here at all?). The question about whether he means in article space or everywhere in WP/WM space is also valid. Too many people either take offense or feign offense, so they would rather risk offending others by telling them they need to change their language. Sounds hypocritical to me that minority subsets that once wanted tolerance and seem to have gotten it have now developed intolerance for others. One more thing, our gender gap "problem" isn't related to anything in this thread or "men who want to keep old-speak alive and kicking". There have been quite a bit of unqualified inferences for which I'm asking clarity. I also agree with RGloucester's comment above.
— Berean Hunter (talk) 05:05, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

There is a difference between being intolerant of people or of ideas and being intolerant of certain actions or practices. Misplaced Pages is intolerant of rapid re-editing, what we call edit-warring, and that it is so is to my knowledge entirely uncontested. People who would ordinarily like edit-warring are welcome on Misplaced Pages so long as they don't edit war here. Even some people who do edit war are still welcome so long as they don't overdo it. Sexist language is another undesirable activity, and rejecting it does not require rejecting any particular person. Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:42, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

The article that prompted this thread, Swimming pool, has been changed in a way that seems to satisfy most people. The thread itself shows no consensus to alter the section its title suggests altering, probably because we haven't even been discussing changes to that section (we just bogged down in discussion whether or not "man-made" is gendered). Is there a use to continuing this discussion? Is there a use to continuing it here? We do have a sister project devoted to discussing and defining words. If people want to work on a summary of what style guides and other authorities have to say about whether or not man is gendered, it could make a good addition to wikt:man#Usage_notes — as a longtime Wiktionarian, I'm happy to help with formatting, etc. Darkfrog already started a summary of assessments of man-made which I'm going to make use of. -sche (talk) 07:18, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Outdented from RGloucester’s reply above. Where did all of that extra indentation come from? Anyway, you’re right that we shouldn’t be getting emotional over things like this. But we still have to deal with the results of emotion, such as certain words falling out of accepted use, or a particular writing style being considered offensive. We accommodate our readers. That means we actively try to avoid causing offense in the prose of an encyclopedia article, where reasonable. That also means we do not rigidly hold to any ideals of language when they are not borne out in modern practice.

As to whether “man-made” is generally considered sexist, I don’t know. Some sources have been cited in this discussion, and they’re mixed. We could pose the question in an RFC maybe? —67.14.236.50 (talk) 17:10, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Raising an RfC would mean making a rule or at least setting a precedent for whether or not "man-made" is acceptable. Considering how zealous people on Misplaced Pages can be about rules and anything else that looks like a rule, I'd rather not. "Man-made" strikes me as sexist, but so far we've only found one problem on one article, and it's run its course without a fuss. Let's not make this a bigger deal than it is. Darkfrog24 (talk) 17:24, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Re @RGloucester 17:32, 5 July (which exceeds my indentation limit): Once again, etymological fallacy. It’s irrelevant where the word came from or what it used to mean. It is the word we use for a male person. There is an equivalent but different word that we use for a female person. Thus, it’s gendered. “Man-made” is another different term from “man” and must be judged on its own merits, not on its etymology. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 17:54, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

What words do I use instead of "human" and "woman"? I must know, so as to liberate myself from the sexist language that is a disservice to my own person. RGloucester — ☎ 17:57, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Assuming you are male, “man” works. Or if you want to be gender-neutral when referring to the individual of yourself, “person” or “homo sapiens” or “this one.” Use your imagination.

But individuals are gendered, so it’s broadly acceptable to refer to individuals as the genders that they are (unless it may be considered demeaning, somehow. People are weird). Or if you were asking about using GNL in general, we have an essay for that. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 18:02, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

I am not "male", and that has nothing to do with what I asked you. Once again, if "man-made" is no good, I clearly cannot use either "woman" or "human" in prose. Please, elucidate. What words should I replace these two with, so as to avoid the sexist "woman" &c., which are clearly derived from word "man", and which can clearly only refer to male men? RGloucester — ☎ 18:08, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

No. If “man-made” is no good, then other stuff exists and is irrelevant. Don’t use the words in the contexts where they have fallen out of favor; continue to use all the other words. Also, I’ve already said that I don’t know which category that word is in. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 18:17, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Nothing is a fallacy. There is no such thing as fallacy, only pure fact. There is no evidence that "man-made" has fallen out of favour anywhere, and it hasn't done. Nothing can be irrelevant. If one is no good, the other is no good. There is no potential other option. Make up one's mind, please. RGloucester — ☎ 18:20, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

That’s… not how our language works. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 18:23, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Our language works however one wants it to work, and this is simply the only manner in which we are able to use it. RGloucester — ☎ 18:30, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

More accurately, it works however the masses want it to work, or else we won’t be understood as intended. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 18:40, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Evidence that "man-made" has fallen out of favor: Oxford Dictionaries (see usage note; hit CTRL-F "sexist") ; the National Council of Teachers of English ; Purdue , and there are more. I also did find one source, the American Heritage Dictionary, that actively said that "man-made" was still okay, but no, RG, we're not making this up.

As for "woman" and "human," no they're not automatically sexist just because they have "man" in them. English is not always logical.

As for an RfC, I don't think that's necessary. An RfC could be interpreted as hard precedent, and "man-made" is already mentioned in the GNL essay. Darkfrog24 (talk) 18:56, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

"Oxford Dictionaries" is not evidence. Evidence is inside the mind of Joe Bloggs. Ask your local joiner today! RGloucester — ☎ 21:08, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Wow, that's a lot to catch up on. Starting with the OP first. Yes, "artificial" is better than "man-made" (which looks weird hyphenated to me, anyway). But "manmade" is not terribly objectionable; it's clearly the same "man" in "mankind" and "the Rights of Man", "One small step for a man ...", etc. It isn't in the same class of latent sexism as using "he"/"his"/"him" as gender-neutral pronouns. So, while I think it's very slightly objectionable to revert change from "man-made" to "artificial" as some kind of anti-p.c. WP:ACTIVISM, we don't need a counter-WP:ADVOCACY campaign to sweep WP of every use of "man-made"/"manmade" either. The change is too trivial to bother with on a large scale, and too likely to lead to editwars if done en masse. The problem with reverting an isolated change of this sort is that it's WP:POINTy (I mean from "man-made" to "artificial", not "man-made" to "made by people (as opposed to being natural)", which should be reverted as bunch of blather), and thwarts our principle that anyone may edit, and that improvements should stick. It's undeniably a (very minor) improvement, because "artificial" has absolutely zero "public relations" problems in such a context, but "man-made" obviously does or this heated discussion, and that editwar, would not exist. It's a cold, hard fact that some number of editors do think "manmade" is objectionable for WP:BIAS reasons (even if that view isn't entirely reasonable), while zero think that about the other word, yet both are synonymous in this context, so there is no defensible reason of any kind to perform such a revert.

Moving on, MOS:GNL is not an essay, so of course we're not going to label it one. We don't need to adding verbiage anywhere saying "this is not a policy!". The {{Style-guideline}} tag on the page already demonstrates that it's not a policy. Nothing without {{Policy}} on it (put there by consensus not personal opinion) is a policy. This, too, is a cold, hard fact. Anyone who can't understand the difference between guidelines and policies simply missing some reading material, and a 5-minute perusal of WP:POLICY will cure that for them. We don't add weird disclaimers all over the place to counter people being "differently clued". We simply give them the correct clue. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ≼ 02:33, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

RGloucester: no, just no. Tony (talk) 11:57, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Poll and discussion on ʻokina use

A discussion and poll at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Hawaii-related_articles#ʻOkina could use additional feedback from those familiar with the main MOS – czar 19:28, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

WP:Collapse

Why can't the collapse feature be used to hide a complete bibliography that is longer than the biography? The wording says it can only be used in tables, which I assume means having rows and columns. Why tables and nothing else? --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 21:18, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Because of accessibility of article-proper content. The reference to tables is probably for infoboxes, navboxes, and sidebars. --Izno (talk) 00:49, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

If I can collapse a filmography section because it is a table, why can't I collapse a bibliography. What makes rows and columns special? If I format it as a table the effect will still be the same. I have never seen a table within a "infoboxes, navboxes, sidebar". The result was the deletion of the section, since it wasn't allowed to be collapsed. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 02:05, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Infoboxes, navboxes and sidebars are also tables; each may contain "child" infoboxes, navboxes etc. which since they use the same code are sub-tables of the main table. --Redrose64 (talk) 10:36, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

If the rule was meant to cover "infoboxes, navboxes and sidebars" it would explicit say so. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 03:20, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, it is, and yes, it should. I've already twice in the last few months run into instances of editwarring to hide (non-nav) table content in articles, using the vagueness of this guideline's wording on the matter as the excuse. "I think this table's data is boring" is not a rationale for making it difficult to get to (especially on mobile devices) for those to whom it's more meaningful. Normal tables of in-article data (such as filmographies) should never be arrived at in a collapsed state (either by default with collapsed or conditionally by the presence of other tables with autocollapse. It's perfectly fine for them to be manually collapsible. This is a basic Web usability matter, as well as an accessibility issue, and a matter of simple encyclopedic presentation. WP is not some clickbait blog, and we do not bury the lede in any way, including the contents of tables. It also interferes with in-page searching, linking to anchors in tables, printing, etc. It's just a terrible idea to ever have article content collapsed upon arrival.
  Whether a references section is longer than a stub's actual article content is irrelevant. WP is not about how vertically balanced anyone thinks the page layout is – WP isn't an artsy design showcase site, either; it's entirely about the content and the sources for it. While some grocery store clerk looking for the episode list of their favorite TV show probably doesn't care about source citations, many users care primarily about the source citations on WP, including most students using WP as part of their initial research for papers. The primary use of WP by students (while doing school work, not goofing off), is getting a handle on what sources to look for in their university library and its journal search resources. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ≼ 21:03, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Why pick on grocery clerks? EEng (talk) 04:38, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

MOS:HOWEVERPUNC

From my search for "however it", I checked the first 1,000 results, and corrected 163 articles for compliance with MOS:HOWEVERPUNC. There are more than 50,000 search results, so by the same proportion there would be more than 8,000 articles (from those search results) needing similar corrections. Searches can also be made for "however he" and "however she" and "however they". Someone else may wish to continue my routine of correcting punctuation with "however"; I have other plans for the present and for the near future, but I might return to this in the indefinite future.
—Wavelength (talk) 00:53, 16 July 2015 (UTC) and 01:12, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Pick up here: Darkfrog24 (talk) 10:47, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

MOS:GNL and the term actress

MOS:GNL from the WP:MOS states that Misplaced Pages should use gender-neutral language. I note that the MOS does not give any guidance regarding whether the gender neutral term "actor" is preferred over "actress" to refer to female thespians. Following the general guidance in MOS:GNL, I propose that the MOS be amended to include a statement that the gender neutral term "actor" should be used for female and male thesps. In 2010 the UK Observer and the Guardian put out a joint style guide which stated "Use for both male and female actors; do not use actress except when in name of award, eg Oscar for best actress." The guide's authors argued that "actress comes into the same category as authoress, comedienne, manageress, 'lady doctor', 'male nurse' and similar obsolete terms that date from a time when professions were largely the preserve of one sex (usually men)." OnBeyondZebrax • TALK 22:54, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

"Actor" is gendered male only, and hence is not gender neutral. RGloucester — ☎ 23:57, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

It was gendered, RG. Now it's moving to the center. English isn't always logical or consistent about these things.

According to the American Heritage Dictionary, "the suffix gratuitously calls attention to gender when there are often neutral words ending in -or or -er. The implication of the feminine ending varies. Sometimes it implies that the task at hand somehow differs when performed by a woman than by a man or that the task is rightfully the realm of men." It mentions "actor" specifically.

According to Oxford Dictionaries, ", female performers were then called either actors or actresses—it was only later that actor became restricted to men—and it seems that we are returning to the original situation."

So we can say with confidence that "actor" is a gender-neutral term. Here's the necessary question: do we need a rule about this? Remember how seriously so many people take rules on Misplaced Pages or anything that looks like a rule. This would be a correct change but is it a necessary one? Would it cause more fights than it prevents? Darkfrog24 (talk) 02:19, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

I believe, then, that "actress" is a gender neutral term. All those who act must be termed "actresses", regardless of gender. RGloucester — ☎ 02:53, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

No, "actress" is gender-specific.

I see what you're getting at: "Why is it sexist to write 'he' as if it meant all people, male and female, but not sexist to write 'actor' as if it meant all people whose profession is acting, male and female?" Because that's how it worked out. English usage isn't always logical and consistent. Darkfrog24 (talk) 03:57, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

Unlike in most professions, male and female thespians are not interchangeable. A male and a female banker, doctor, or truck driver do the same things and each could normally be replaced by the other. But in western culture at least, male roles are played almost exclusively by males, and female roles by females. Thus there are very few roles which an actor and an actress can actually compete for, and the gendered term tells you a great deal about the kinds of roles that a person might take on. It is still the first piece of info that a producer would want to know before hiring someone. Therefore it is misleading and incorrect to fail to use "actress" for a female, just as much as it would be to use it for a male. In most cases I am all for gender-neutral language, and have been using it for many years, but this case is one of the few where it simply doesn't work. DES 04:08, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

References

Use of commas at the Cougar (slang) article

Opinions are needed on the following matter: Talk:Cougar (slang)#Incorrect and/or improper usage of commas. A WP:Permalink for it is here. Flyer22 (talk) 11:53, 19 July 2015 (UTC)