Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 20:13, 2 August 2006

Date of board vote

"It is expected to be voted on by the board in the summer of 2005." Evidently, this sentence is outdated. Any changes or comments? --Oop 07:47, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Edits, Science, and NPOV

I made a couple of minor edits, and FeloniousMonk changed them back without comment. I object to this. For one thing, I object to saying that a campaign "seeks to redefine science to allow for supernatural explanations", unless the proponents of that campaign describe it that way. This sounds like something that the critics would say. Schlafly 06:29, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

The original passage was accurate, since the scientific method creates knowledge based on observation alone, and Intelligent design seeks to change this definition by eliminating "methodological naturalism" from science and replacing it with "theistic realism" . I'll add the cites to the article to make this clear.

NPOV policy requires all significant viewpoints to be covered, including those of "critics." FeloniousMonk 01:33, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

You are violating NPOV policy. You are giving me your opinion about the scientific method, but it is not the opinion of the Kansas folks. If you want to cite the opinion of critics like Barbara Forrest in a separate paragraph, that is okay with me. Schlafly 02:40, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

There is no violation of NPOV policy, read the articles here on WP concerning Scientific method and related topics. We can certainly enter what "Kansas folks" think if they are cited, but they are not authorities on the scientific method unless they are also well regarded scientific researchers. KillerChihuahua 03:07, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Can you explain how including a factually accurate statement violates NPOV. Your insertion contradicts all evidence I have seen. If you want to dispute the neutrality of this article, please provide a citation in support of this position. Guettarda 03:10, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that it does factually describe what Kansas was doing. The Kansas Board did not say that it wants supernatural explanations, or use those other terms. Maybe other creationists have used such terms, but this article is about Kansas, not other creationists. Schlafly 04:08, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Schlaf, have you even the remotest clue as to what "supernatural" means? The crux of the Kansas hearings was the inclusion of intelligent design (ID) in the science curriculum, yes? Kansas has since adopted the inclusion of ID, yes? ID, by definition presupposes a cause outside of nature, thus making the causer supernatural, yes? Thus, your NPOV argument is incorrect, and continuing with it would merely prove that you seek to have your specific POV be that which guides the article.

That's it, Roger, short, sweet, to the point and logically unassailable. Jim62sch 10:37, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

The more I look at this page, the more problems I see. There are many critical comments about the Kansas board, without including the Kansas POV. Eg, the Board should not be called "pro-creationist", unless they identify themselves that way. The hearings did not conclude that evolution is "an unproven, often disproven" theory; that was just one opinion.

That is just the first paragraph. Most of the other paragraphs are written with an anti-Kansas POV. Schlafly 03:21, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Um, what exactly is an "anti-Kansas POV"? Non sequiturs like that make me suspect you're not sufficiently well-versed on the issues and topics as they relate to this subject. FeloniousMonk 03:30, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Anti-Kansas POV? Uh, yeah, OK. Get real. Read up on the subject before pontificating. Jim62sch 10:41, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

POV templates are to be used as last resorts, not starting points for discussion. To begin with you need to produce some support for your claims. Guettarda 03:40, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

The NPOV template just says that there is a dispute. Do you deny that there is a dispute? There are some big problems here. There are a lot of attacks on Kansas, but no accurate description of what Kansas actually did. I just inserted a summary of what Kansas did, which I pasted from the Kansas web site http://www.kansasscience2005.com/Short_summary_of_changes.pdf.

I put in the template because people were removing my changes without discussion. I even made a grammar correction, and somebody removed it. There are obviously 2 sides to this Kansas debate. I just want both sides accurately represented. Schlafly 04:08, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

The NPOV template is not there for any Tom, Dick and Roger to slap up willy-nilly, it is there as a matter of last resort. This really is not a difficult concept to master.

Thanks for the reading citation. Note the following passage from that citation: "e. About the controversy over whether microevolution can be extrapolated to explain macroevolutionary changes like new body plans and systems that appear irreducibly complex (emphasis added)". Would you care to guess when the term "irreducibly complex"? I'll save you the trouble, it's from Michael Behe (Darwin's Black Box), one of the members of ID's "Expert" Troika. Thus, as there is a note in the summary explaining that ID does not have to be part of the curriculum but most certainly can be, and given that a number of the other changes relate directly to passages from ID publications, and given the usage of Behe's term, there really is no NPOV dispute here. The tag needs to be removed. Jim62sch 10:54, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

No, the NPOV template is only use by convention when there is a failure to solve the dispute. Your initial insertions were factually inaccurate, and thus should have been removed. So there was no grounds to insert the template. You have now inserted an admitted copyvio. You cannot cut and paste material from other sources without providing permission from the copyright holder releasing the material under an appropriate free license. Guettarda 04:18, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

We have a failure to resolve the dispute. I want the article to describe what Kansas really did, followed by the criticism. You just want the criticism. Schlafly 04:29, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

How can you say that there is failure to resolve a dispute? You have proposed two changes, one of which was factually inaccurate, and the other which appears to violate copyright law. So...what dispute has not been resolved? What attempt have you made to make a case for change? Guettarda 04:37, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

I think we've already found limit of what he's willing to contribute to this article. The NPOV template is being misused yet again by someone when their edits fail to gain consensus approval, in my opinion. FeloniousMonk 04:49, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

I see someone put the summary of changes back in, but with serious errors introduced. You are unwilling to allow the Kansas POV. You have inserted words like "supernatural" which are not used by the Kansas Board.

I propose we put in the Kansas Board view, and the opposing view. What's the problem? Schlafly 06:08, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

What? More copyvios? No, summaries are perfectly acceptable. Allowing for an intelligent designer as a scientific explanation for the origin of life by necessity means that they're redefining science to allow for supernatural causes, whether they realize it or not. A rose by any other name... FeloniousMonk 07:51, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

"The Kansas Board view"? You mean the pro-ID view, I think. The website you claim represents the the Kansas Board viewpoint, kansasscience2005.com, is actually run by intelligentdesignnetwork.org and John Calvert, one of the principal ID proponent responsible for the hearing's outcome . Suggesting that kansasscience2005.com somehow is representative of the Kansas State Board of Education's viewpoint is rather disingenuous, unless you're subtly suggesting that the board was in the back pocket of ID lobbyists, in which case I'll be eager to hear more. The actual Board of Education view would be found at ksde.org. FeloniousMonk 09:08, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the POV template that Schaffly has re-inserted, again, I ask the question - what dispute have we failed to resolve? You can't say there is a dispute when you have made one edit that was factually inaccurate and another that was a copyvio, and failed to discuss the changes you want made to the article. Nothing is stopping you from correcting anything you see as violating NPOV except WP:CITE and WP:V. Nothing at all is stopping you from discussing changes you would like to see made to the article. Broad generalisations and illegitimate additions, on the other hand, are not grounds to tag the article. What specifics of the article are you disputing? Guettarda 18:18, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

This article is extremely one-sided. In almost every paragraph, it gives one POV and not the other.

There are other articles that describe evolution, intelligent design, creationism, Discovery Institute, etc. I would drop most of that stuff, and focus on what the actual changes that were under discussion at the Kansas hearings. The article should describe the changes, give the arguments for and against, and refer to other articles for info on evolution, religion, and other subjects.

To give a simple example of bias, consider this under "Result": "The new standards were approved by 6 to 4, reflecting the makeup of religious conservatives on the board." It then gives a reference to a USA Today article. The USA Today article does not say that the vote does not say that the vote reflected the "makeup of religious conservatives". The statement suggests that the vote was a religious vote. I am sure that the majority would argue that their vote was for scientific and educational reasons. The statement is as one-sided as if someone said, "The new standards were approved by 6 to 4, reflecting the minority status of the atheist secular humanists on the board."

I suggest that the statement just say, "The new standards were approved by 6 to 4." The arguments for and against can be recited elsewhere.

I intend to put in the following neutral description of the Kansas changes. I am all in favor of including criticism, but the actual changes should be described as they were proposed and enacted. If there is something wrong with what I write here, then please explain what is wrong. If you change it without explanation, then we obviously have an unresolved dispute.

The Kansas curriculum changes

The most controversial proposal was to change the definition of science:

The old definition reads in part, "Science is the human activity of seeking natural explanations for what we observe in the world around us." The new one calls science "a systematic method of continuing investigation that uses observation, hypothesis testing, measurement, experimentation, logical argument and theory building to lead to more adequate explanations of natural phenomena."

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/15/science/sciencespecial2/15evol.html?ex=1289710800&en=8222cfc9c70fd951&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

In the November 8, 2005 the Kansas Board of Education approved the following changes to its science standards:

Add to the mission statement a goal that science education should seek to "inform."

Change the definition of science, as described above.

Exclude intelligent design from the standards, without prohibiting it.

State that evolution is a theory and not a fact.

Add standards that reqire informing students of purported scientific controversies regarding evolution.

Your recent addition to the article abandoned a concise list of the changes for an editorialized explanation of the redefinition of science. As such, it's fundamentally unencyclopedic. Let's just stick to listing the facts. FeloniousMonk 22:48, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

FeloniousMonk is a Misplaced Pages vandal. I didn't abandon anything. I inserted a very short paragraph that had the old and new definitions of science. This was the most controversial issue in the hearings. It was neutral.

FeloniousMonk insists on inserting a characterization of the definition of science that says that intelligent design is a supernatural explanation, and that supernatural explanations are within the definition of science. Those are disputed points. The Kansas definition does not use the word "supernatural".

Again, I am all in favor of citing critics of the new definition. But it is crucial to accurately describe the actual changes before describing the criticism. The NY Times included the old and new definition. Why can't Misplaced Pages? This article has about 1000 extraneous words attacking the Kansas Board, and a NPOV requires accurately describing what Kansas did. Schlafly 23:18, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Now someone else (not me) has added a couple of good paragraphs explaining the motives of the Kansas Board, and another vandal deleted them one minute later without any explanation. Is there something wrong with those paragraphs? What? Schlafly 03:44, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

In the buzzing of the darkness there fester many conspiracy theories in which the roles of vandal and common-sense editor are reversed. Here we see just such an example, one in which the good people wishing to keep the article NPOV in the face of POV vandalism are cast as vandals for upholding one of Misplaced Pages's main guidelines. Obviously, this buzzing is but a mere gateway to a dark parallel universe in which logic is tempest-toss'd until its semblance to logic as we know it is lost. This is a parallel universe in which evolutionists and their willing dupes (read vandals) are leftist atheists, hell-bent on excising any semblance of the truth of revealed science. It is a parallel universe from which emanate the ramblings and rumblings of the rightist-Bible-thumping-creationists, ramblings and rumblings that eschew true discourse in favor of personal attacks. Alas, the buzzing of this dark universe has found its way to this page. Jim62sch 11:09, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

NPA

"FeloniousMonk is a Misplaced Pages vandal. " per Schlafly, who has made similar accusations when his edits did not meet with support on the only other article he has ever seriously edited, Phyllis Schlafly. Schlafly, I strongly advise you to go, now, and study WP:NPA, WP:V, WP:CITE, WP:CON, and consider your trolling carefully before proceeding. KillerChihuahua 23:24, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

I am familiar with the WP procedures. I have inserted accurate statements, and cited neutral sources, only to have FeloniousMonk and others remove them and replace them with false and unsourced statements. I have explained my position here, and tried to reach a consensus. FeloniousMonk is not following NPOV or other WP protocols. Schlafly 02:05, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

A rather bold statement without foundation. Jim62sch 11:10, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

We seem to have reached consensus that Schlafly's edits are POV-pushing and bad, no? He hasn't really explained what was wrong with it. He seems to want to pretend that the DI isn't behind it all (head in sand time). The only thing wrong with it so far is that I can see that it doesn't make enough references to Edwards v. Aguillard, the establishment clause and the fact that they're going to be whacked by a lawsuit. — Dunc|☺ 12:13, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, Dunc. In doing some research I found that the user seems to have a strong anti-evolution bias to the point of being rather militant on the issue. Jim62sch 13:17, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Yea, verily. FeloniousMonk 07:22, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Steve Abrams

Someone (not me) inserted the following info about Steve Abrams:

Kansas veterinarian Steve Abrams and Chairman of the Board explained why he held these hearings: "The point of the science hearings is to show that, indeed, among scientists with many degrees, having received many research grants, having published many peer-reviewed papers and books and having accomplishments great and small, there is great controversy about biological evolution being taught as dogma." (Abrams commentary printed in the Wichita Eagle May 11, 2005).

The hearings were boycotted by mainstream scientists, who accused it of being a kangaroo court and argued that their participation would lend an undeserved air of legitimacy to the hearings. The scientific community rejects the teaching intelligent design as science; a leading example being the United States National Academy of Sciences, which issued a policy statement saying "Creationism, intelligent design, and other claims of supernatural intervention in the origin of life or of species are not science because they are not testable by the methods of science." . Dr. Abrams responded to this criticism as follows: "We invited evolutionary scientists from all across Kansas and the United States to testify. But they have all decided to boycott. Now, a thinking person would ask: Is it because the hearings are rigged? Is it because of arrogance of the majority scientists? Or is it because what the majority proposes is actually full of holes?" (Abrams commentary, supra).

This seemed like a useful description a view from the Kansas Board. It is not my opinion, but it is Abrams' opinion, and this article should have the opinions of the Kansas Board as well as the opinions of its critics.

Nevertheless, the vandals here have just deleted it without explanation. Why? Why do they want to exclude what the Kansas Board did, and how they justified it? Schlafly 05:30, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

One, because Abrams is parroting the already familiar Discovery Institute boilerplate spin, and two, we already have Kathy Martin in the article eloquently describing in her own words just how she her other 5 like-minded board members reasoned this one out. In other words, quoting Abrams reading from the DI play book adds nothing new or unique to the article. FeloniousMonk 07:30, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Registering again my disgust with Schlafly's ad hom attacks of anyone who edits anything on this article that is not in complete agreement with his POV as vandals. Grow up and learn some manners. KillerChihuahua 16:02, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Ditto. Jim62sch 18:36, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

So FeloniusMonk endorses the vandalism because Abrams allegedly agrees with the Discovery Institute?!

This is not an article about the Discover Institute. It is an article about the Kansas hearings, run by Abrams and the rest of the Kansas Board. There is a separate article about the Discovery Institute, if anyone cares. The views and actions of the Kansas Board belong in this article. Kathy Martin has her opinions, but they are not necessarily the same as those of the others on the Board.

Someone who reads this article on the Kansas hearings is going to want to know what the Kansas Board did, and what its stated purposes were. He is also going to want to know why many scientists boycotted the hearings. The article gives some explanation of the boycott, but fails to adequately explain what the Kansas Board was doing. Schlafly 07:57, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

This is the third time you have accused an editor of vandalism because they did not agree with you. Please read WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA, and for good measure, WP:VAND#What_vandalism_is_not. Vandalism usually looks like this - if you don't care to follow the link, someone inserted the words "WHO MUTHA FUCKIN MIKE JONES HOE!!!!!" in an article. That is vandalism. Stop calling other editors vandals until and unless they start making additions like that, or blanking the page. KillerChihuahua 12:35, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

This will come as no shock, but KC is correct. Aside from Misplaced Pages's definition of vandal or vandalism, I suggest you crack open a dictionary and look the words up. This isn't your blog, you cannot dominate the page by inserting items that are either clearly POV, or that offer nothing to the article. Additionally, the talk page's purpose is to resolve disagreements, and your knee-jerk labeling as a vandal anyone reverting one of your edits is certainly not the rational way to get your point across. Jim62sch 16:52, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Roger Schlafly

From his Dark Buzz blog: blog Jim62sch 02:46, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Labeling witnesses

Someone keeps labeling the witnesses as "creationist", even though some of them are not. Their testimony speaks for itself. Perhaps someone could check the transcripts, and count how many identify themselves as creationist in their testimony, and put the count in the article. Otherwise, it is just a biased epithet.

Saying that they are "mainly creationist" doesn't cut it either. Maybe they are mainly Caucasian, Republican, Christian, and football fans for all I know. Let's stick to relevant and verifiable facts. Roger 02:43, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I've been through the article and I don't see the clear and unambigous citation that states that all witnesses are creationists (which isn't even necessarily the same thing as being proponents of ID). Can we get those cites, or edit the article to make it clearer what backs up that edit? Also, I'd appreciate it if you didn't revert legitimate changes in your zeal. I've refixed the typo that keeps creeping back in (jounalist). -- nae'blis 19:00, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Origin of life

Origin of life can have different meanings depending on the context:

• Origin belief focuses on beliefs concerning the origin of the universe and the origin of life in various religions and cultures.
• Origin of life focuses on modern scientific research on the origin of life.

Based on the above snippet, I'd say that what the hearings are attempting to determine is which approach to the origin of life should be taken in public schools: the approach which regards the matter is purely scientific (non-supernatural), or the approach that combines both scientific and religious ideas.

I daresay a substantial minority of (non-Wikipedian) advocates regard the origin of life as purely a "scientific" matter, i.e., one that should be examined only in terms of physical causes.

Others believe that supernatural causes are relevant also.

Perhaps the issue is a sort of turf war. Who gets control of the topic? Educators who want to exclude God and/or religion from the classroom, or those who don't mind including them.

It might help the article if the predispositions (or motivations) of the various disputants were described in the article. The connection between advocacy of atheism and advocacy of philosophical naturalism ought to be explored, and if possible described. If not in this article, then in a spinoff.

We all know already the connection between religious faith and Creationism. You couldn't make that clearer if you ground it into powder, dissolved it in hot coffee, and threw it in the reader's face!

What we need is a balanced, in-depth article. And preferably, one which didn't take sides. --Uncle Ed 19:48, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Rejection by mainstream

Cut:

• The scientific community rejects the teaching intelligent design as science; a leading example being the United States National Academy of Sciences, which issued a policy statement saying "Creationism, intelligent design, and other claims of supernatural intervention in the origin of life or of species are not science because they are not testable by the methods of science." .

This isn't really needed here. There is no way any reader who's gotten this far in the article could be unaware of what the mainstream scientific position is. We don't have to ram it down their throats.

We might want to mention this in the context of explaining why mainstream scientists refused to attend the hearings. Like:

• We're not coming. ID is not science, and there's no point debating this. This hearing is a farce, and the outcome is politically pre-determined. (or whatever they actually said when they announced their boycott)

Anyway, was ID specifically mentioned in the hearings, proposed standards, or rulings? Or was that just something anti-ID advocates feared might slip into classrooms? How we mention things is important: context is everything. --Uncle Ed 20:13, 2 August 2006 (UTC)