Misplaced Pages

@SMcCandlish: To reply to a couple of your points. My big all caps point on the article was when the article was titled and moving towards "List of chemicals in" and QuackGuru was adding nanoparticles in a statement as if they were an additional chemical. That would be outside the scope of the article. As for my stance on MEDRS, I don't believe there's no MEDRS relevance at the topic I just don't believe the whole topic falls under it. How e-cigs are constructed and the social aspects of their use don't require MEDRS level sourcing and some of the sub pages are of limited health or medical relevance. I don't believe the chemical components of something is a medical topic, especially when it's explicitly split off from the medical effects of those components into a separate article.

And as you bring up the content dispute about "Vapour is a marketing term" I have yet to see that claim sourced. It appears to be a claim that people believe for whatever reason but not one that can be justified, it's also a bit disingenuous to say I believe common name trumps all other concerns when I've addressed the other policies as well and so have others to show that, in our opinion, vapour is the name that follows policy. But I'll await that RFC's close to see the assessment of consensus. SPACKlick (talk) 11:25, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

According to the source "Blu lets me enjoy smoking without it affecting the people around me, because it's vapour not tobacco smoke," says Stephen Dorff, the scruffy heartthrob star of The Immortals." Big tobacco has been very successful in marketing e-cigarettes as simply "vapour".

User:SPACKlick, you seem to have a pattern of deleting well sourced text from the new article.

"metal nanoparticles" and "When propylene glycol is heated and aerosolized, it could produce propylene oxide." deleted The text is sourced to Grana 2014. You criticised the review on your user page.

"copper" deleted (I replaced it with another source)

The lede sentence was deleted twice.

"4-(methylnitrosamino)-1-(3-pyridyl)-1-butanone and N-nitrosonornicotine" deleted

"The nickel and chromium nanoparticles that was found in the vapor may have came from the e-cigarette heating element." and "Propylene glycol could produce propylene oxide when heated and aerosolized." deleted

"Aerosol" deleted

"Propylene glycol could produce propylene oxide when heated and aerosolized." Please read the sources: When heated and vaporized, propylene glycol can form propylene oxide, an International Agency for Research on Cancer class 2B carcinogen,69 and glycerol forms acrolein, which can cause upper respiratory tract irritation.70,71 Thermal degradation of propylene glycol can generate propylene oxide, which is classified by the International Agency for Research on Cancer as a class 2B carcinogen. The text is clearly sourced in accordance with WP:MEDRS.

"The delivery of nicotine from the vapor is inconsistent among products." deleted

See Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive882#User:SPACKlick_reported_by_User:QuackGuru_at_Electronic_Cigarette_.28copied_to_WP:ANEW_by_SPACKlick.29 for the previous AN/I discussion.

See Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/3RRArchive286#SPACKlick_reported_by_QuackGuru_.28Result:_Editor_sanctioned.29 for previous 3RR report. QuackGuru (talk) 21:04, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Don't intend to get into a content dispute on ANI, that's not the venue, however your list of deletions goes (Scope dispute, Scope dispute, Failed verification, style dispute, style dispute, scope dispute, verification/relevance dispute, style dispute, verification/relevance dispute, Don't know why I removed the last one), the verification/relevance disputes are the same fact, which several people disagreed with including because the source doesn't indicate its relevance to the topic at hand. Yes I got angry and edit warred at your assertion an image showed what was clearly not contained within it. Because it is frustrating to deal with your poor grasp of english, to deal with your ownership, to deal with you not allowing any improvement to the readability and formation of the article, for your shotgun approach to expanding the article by adding overly detailed repetetive sentences. You are an incredibly frustrating editor to work with Quack. Do you understand that? And when someone disagrees with you, or your methods, you claw back through the same complaints, bringing them up time and time again.SPACKlick (talk) 12:15, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

• Okay, with a heavy heart, I'll accept SMcCandlish's recommendation and open an Arbcom case. I would suggest that this particular discussion has run its useful course and can be closed.—S Marshall T/C 17:18, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
  • You have received notification of your recent behaviour. You don't seem to understand you were being uncivil. QuackGuru (talk) 19:50, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

I would also agree with S Marshall's question and have asked it before, do we need to adapt how we communicate with you because of a difficulty with English. It appears you misunderstand words often and are blind at times to matters of context or subtlety and so the question becomes relevant. Do we need to adapt how we interact with you to overcome the difficulty of not sharing a first language? SPACKlick (talk) 12:15, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

• There is a WP:ARB/R discussion at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Electronic cigarette. QuackGuru (talk) 00:09, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Potential sock

I have reported a potential sock here: Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/FergusM1970. I would not have done this unless the IP: 92.12.66.90 Contributions had made edits to two subjects which User:FergusM1970 is known to have engaged in undisclosed paid advocacy for. -- CFCF 🍌 (email) 02:38, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Rolandi+ and Alexikoua's behavior in Balkan-related articles

• Rolandi+ (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Alexikoua (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Both of these editors have been duking it out in multiple Balkan-related articles. The Balkans are under discretionary sanctions as per WP:ARBMAC. Both users are aware of this: . Both users have been previously blocked for edit-warring, and are well aware of the rules there. Rolandi+ is just coming off of a block and Alexikoua has been blocked multiple times.

One of many examples of their warring is Nicholas Leonicus Thomaeus.

• Full or partial reverts from Rolandi+:
• Full or partial reverts from Alexikoua:

Other examples with some recent edit warring include:

• Illyrians
• Kara Mahmud Pasha
• Greater Albania

Both users have placed warnings on each others' talk pages but appear fairly oblivious that the warnings apply to themselves as well: Rolandi+ placing on Alexikoua: Alexikoua placing on Rolandi+:

Also note that Alexikoua went to several articles that Rolandi+ edited in a short period of time and reverted everything he did, which is possibly WP:HOUND. He clearly was singling out Rolandi+, at the very least: .

While both users are being fairly careful to avoid violating the 3RR, it is clear they they are engaging in disruptive behavior, and they're well aware of the rules given their respective block logs. It's getting to the point where a topic ban may be necessary. ~ Rob 16:13, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

On each case I initiate a discussion on the correspondent talkpage and I'm very carefull when to remove specific parts in case they are either poorly cited or not cited at all. For example in Nicholas Leonicus Thomaeus, I'm still waiting for Rolandi's talkpage participation but there is still no response ]. On the other hand Rolandi's talkpage is full of warnings from multiple users (I count at least 4). Also comments such a this one ] from a recent ani filled again him by another user, reveal an edit-warring nature.

About Rob's comments I have to add that my last blog was 2+ years ago (May '13), thus it's a bit unfair to neglect that fact, in addition that this is the first report against me from that time. Alexikoua (talk) 16:26, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

The OP paints a very simplistic picture, which shows sloppiness and a lack of understanding of the topic and issues involved. Rolandi+ is in conflict with multiple editors, due to his falsification of sources, dishonesty, and incivility. He has repeatedly falsified sources, edit-warred over unsourced material, made stuff up and refuses to get the point. At Illyrians, he has falsified a source that makes the opposite of the claim he is pushing in the article . He edit-warred over this, made accusations of sockpuppetry, and is extremely rude in the talkpage . He was blocked for edit-warring at Illyrians, and he is now resuming right where he left off , using low quality sources. This, after he was blocked 36 hours for breaching 3RR at two different articles in the same day . He is also falsifying sources at Vlachs , and edit-warring over there as well. Here he falsifies one source (the author states that the Italian census numbers are exaggerated, but he omits that and enters the number using Misplaced Pages's own voice) and removes another high quality source (Meyer) for no good reason, without even mentioning it in the edit summary. When he can't find even low quality sources to falsify, he just makes stuff up . When a fellow Albanian editor mildly criticized one of the highly nationalistic, low quality sources he tried to use, Rolandi removed that user's talkpage comments from the talkpage . To top it all off, he is extremely rude and refuses to get the point: (referring to Greek editors as "penguins") , (taunting a Serbian user about being bombed by NATO), , , , . Here is is taunting another user to "please" revert . It's really not hard to find diffs of this user's disruptive behavior. Just go to any talkpage he has participated and they as plentiful as fish in the sea. This user has exactly ZERO positive contributions to wikipedia, has major WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality. His talkpage is nothing but a graveyard of warnings by multiple users of all kinds of backgrounds . Even in Japan-related topics he is making trouble , for which he was warned. Alexikoua has repeatedly tried to engage him in article talkpages and on his own talkpage, to no avail. It is impossible to reason with this user. He is here to here to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS (Greek sources cannot be trusted because "it made genocide,killed and stole albanians") and nothing will get in the way of that. This is in stark contrast to Alexikoua, who has kept a clean record for the last two years now, has created dozens of articles and DYKs, and is always civil and amenable to reason in talkpage discussions. Athenean (talk) 18:09, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

This is an unfair report regarding Alexikoua. Rolandi+ has exhibited WP:BATTLE behaviour including removing a fellow-Albanian editor's comments for not agreeing with him for which he was subsequently warned on his talkpage by an admin. Here after his block for edit-warring expired he tells the blocking admin: Actually I have been busy for some days so the block wasn't any problem for me. He has also exhibited bravura when reported at 3RRN challenging me to report him even as he had two, yes two, 3RR reports pending against him at 3RRN. In addition his talkpage is full of warnings regarding his falsification of sources and other disruption. Alexikoua's edits are a factor of stability in the Balkans, a troubled area of Misplaced Pages. There is simply no comparison between the two editors. The OP is completely misguided in his unfair comments regarding Alexikoua. Δρ.Κ.  18:39, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

Hi , There are many cases of edit warring between us.It's true!I hope this will not happen in the future. As for "Nicholas Leonicus Thomaeus" case I tried to explain him twice at his talk page that he couldn't delete others' edits and references only to add the greek hypothesis.It's normal to include all the hypothesis about Thomaeus' origin.Also he can't delete well-established informations that have been there since a long time. As for "Illyrians" case,I had corrected my edits.My last deleted edits made it clear that Illyrians may be the ancestors of Albanians.(I didn't make it a fact,just a hypothesis).Alexikoua thinks that the Albanian hypothesis doesn't need te be included there,but the Vlach hypothesis yes. As for "Greater Albania" I stoped my edit waring and I have discussed that with Athenean at my talk page.I will discuss that at the article's talkpage soon as I haven't enough time now. I hope that there will not be any need for this noticeboard in the future.However it is important the fact that Alexikoua has a habit to delete almost all my Albanian related edits within 24 hours.If you see my edit history,the majority of my edits have been deleted by Alexikoua within a short time.He doesn't try to talk to me or discuss together. In our recent edit warrings another user is included.Athenean has the same habit as Alexikoua to undo the majority of my edits. As I said ,we need to be more carefull in the future and stop edit warring.However,it is important for Alexikoua not to delete almost all my edits.If he thinks I have made disruptive edits in the future,he can try talking to me or to involve other users or an administrator for help. As for my past mistakes I have been blocked for 36 hours before some days so Athenean doesn't need to mention them here. I don't actually know why these three users contribute at the same pages at the same time.I think it is a kind of sockpuppetery or collaboration. Rolandi+ (talk) 19:01, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

As for Japan related article,the warning was a mistake.Go and ask that editor.It not the only time I got warnings that were a mistake.See my warnings history and the involved users' talk pages please . As for the Vlach case ,as you can see,I hadn't falsificated any reference,just go and see .The warning editor falsificated the references.This story is explained but Athenean doesn't mention this fact.As for Italian census case I explained to Athenean what I meant with that reference at my talk page.But Athenean doesn't mention my explanation because the only thing he wants is my block.As for "Baku spirit" case,why don't you go and se the KSFT's talk page.I suggest to these three users to open as many noticeboard cases as possible ,there is no problem for me. Rolandi+ (talk) 19:19, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

This case is only about me and Alexikoua.There was another ANI involving me before some days and these three editors commented against me.Isn't this a collaboration?You can easily note that there are many cases where these three users edit at the same pages at the same time .Isn't this some kind of strange collaboration or even sockpuppetery?Rolandi+ (talk) 19:41, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

The topics you are editing have been the target of sockpuppetry, edit-warring disruption, falsification of sources and personal attacks by editors advancing low quality, nationalist-based edits. You seem to be doing most of these things so don't complain when other editors clean up after you. Also if you have evidence of sockpuppetry don't try to weasel your insinuations into the discussion. Either open a sockpuppet investigation against the editors you suspect or stop your personal attacks. Δρ.Κ.  19:57, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

You are making personal attacks here,I am just defending myself.If you have sth against me,open another case.Also an unregistred user undid my edits at Thomaeus by claiming that my edits are " propaganda & false information".This is strange.He explains this by saying "(WP:V, WP:RS)and Jacques & 'scholars' from the Hoxha era are very unreliable sources".Who is this user in the reality?Strange.Rolandi+ (talk) 21:08, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

You are making personal attacks here,: Can you specify by giving a diff which part of my comments were a "personal attack"? Who is this user in the reality?Strange. Why are you asking me? If you have any questions about a user you can open an SPI to find out. Finally, do not ask other editors to intervene making false claims against editors who comment here because it is considered canvassing and uncivil. Δρ.Κ.  21:38, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

Here's a simple fact: Alexikoua has reverted the edits of Rolandi+ repeatedly and across multiple pages in short periods of time. Edit-warring is not excused by correctness. That's the only additional thing I'll say. This statement is not influenced in anyway by Rolandi's comments on my talk page; I was watching this discussion already, and would have commented this way when I had returned no matter what. I do agree with the point about WP:CANVASS, though. ~ Rob 22:14, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

From what I can tell, Alexikoua has not exceeded 2 reverts in a 24 hour period in any article. This is in contrast to Rolandi who has breached 3RR at least twice in the last few days. You seem to be painting the users with the same brush. That is incorrect. There is one user who has made countless valuable contributions to Misplaced Pages, and one who hasn't. There is one user who has engaged in ethnic baiting, and one who hasn't. There is one user who falsifies sources, and one who hasn't. There is one user who has been blocked recently for multiple breaches of 3RR and one user who has maintained a spotless record for the last two years. Athenean (talk) 22:22, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

Your accusations of WP:HOUND and excessive edit-warring against Alexikoua do not stand up to scrutiny. If I look at his contribs of the last 7 days (i.e. since Rolandi's block expired), he has reverted Rolandi a total of two times at Greater Albania, once at Illyrians, three times at Nicholas Leonicus Thomaeus, and once at Kara Mahmud Pasha. This is over a period of 7 days, and not taking into account that Rolandi was POV-pushing, falsifying sources, being incivil, and was reverted by several other users (because he was POV-pushing and falsifying source), not just Alexikoua. Athenean (talk) 22:32, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

I had not seen the HOUND allegations of the OP against Alexikoua. That betrays a total lack of understanding of the MO of the SPAs and socks in this area of the Balkans. Once an SPA is bent on changing the nationality to Albanian of many historical figures they do it across multiple articles and they do it by falsifying sources and enforce it through edit-warring. To follow such an SPA through multiple articles to correct their falsification of sources is good and standard practice not WP:HOUND. I don't doubt the good intentions of the OP but they are severely misguided and betray a total ignorance of the operating methods of the SPAs in this subject area. I am also concerned that despite the available evidence of widespread disruption by the Rolandi+ SPA the OP seems bent on insisting on treating Alexikoua's proper edits as somehow problematic. Such behaviour is not constructive. To gain a proper understanding of the nationalist-based disruption in this area one has to check SPI archives such as Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet_investigations/Malbin210/Archive and related cases as seen in the archive and also check the sockpuppet userpages and contributions. For example, one of the socks had tried to convert the origin of George Washington's mother to Albanian. Δρ.Κ.  22:55, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

Firstly you said that I haven't made any valuable contribution here.Then you mention "nationalism" ,Malbin210 and related cases.It is obvious now,the only problem for you is the fact that there are some Albanian editors contributing to Misplaced Pages.You don't want Albanain editors to contribute to Misplaced Pages.This is the only problem here.Rolandi+ (talk) 09:15, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

What part of edit-warring disruption and falsification of sources did you not understand? Don't try to use the ethnicity of editors as a red herring against me, especially when you yourself removed a fellow-Albanian editor's comments because he didn't agree with you. Resnjari, whose opinion you reverted because he didn't agree with you, is also Albanian and he has my respect. This has nothing to do with ethnicity and you know that very well. Δρ.Κ.  09:54, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

The previous ANI regarding Rolandi+ was initiated by me, but it apparently ended in no result. I don't think it's necessary for me to present the user's incorrectness – he's been warned countless times. It's strange that he is allowed to continue this disruptive behaviour. Alexikoua shows none of Rolandi+'s manners (has always been civil, etc.) and I fail to see why Alexikoua is mentioned as a subject in this ANI. --Zoupan 10:16, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

As for Resnjari,I have talked to him.I deleted his comment because we weren't talking about chams in greece.Why don't you mention this fact?Zoupan says it's strange that I am allowed to contribute to Misplaced Pages.It's very strange in fact.Why doesn't Zoupan mention his falsification of sources as he did for example at Kosovo serbs?Why?How it's possible that these users undo all my edits (including Zoupan)?Why?Why do Alexikoua,Dr.K and Athenean delete all references that say the a X famous person or ethnic minority has albanian origin?How is it possible?Why don't you see their edit's history.Don't believe in our words...just go and control our edit's history.Alexikoua is very civil because after he deletes others' work and references ,he asks his collaborators for help.Before some days there was another ANI where I was involved.It was opened by Dr.K,while Athenean and Alexikoua commented against me.How is it possible that when I don't have the same ideas with Alexikoua,Athenean and Dr.K come and delete my work?How is it possible?It's unfair that the work of the Albanian editors is always undone by these three editors.How is it possible that all references introduced by Albanian editors(or by other editors who add the so-called pro albanian references)are "nationalism","unreliable","propaganda" and "manifesto"?It's unfair because Misplaced Pages has to be neutral.Look for example at Thomaeus article,I explained Alexikoua that he couldn't delete the well-established infos only to add the greek hypothesis.The right thing to do there is to include all the hypothesis about Thomaeus' origin.If you can't control these users,why don't you delete all the Albanian related articles,so they will not be vandalised anymore? Rolandi+ (talk) 11:41, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Also see at the "Greater Albania" talk page.These users put a map showing the presence of Albanians in the neighbour countries .Why don't they agree to put the map of "Greater Albania" there? Because they don't like it?Alexikoua says it is created by Albanian users?And what does it mean?Note the fact that Alexikoua uses greek politicans as references (for example at Souliotes)That article is about Greater Albania and not about the presence of Albanians in the neighbour countries.Everyone knows that the Greater Albania map is the map introduced by League of Prizren.Actually ,this is RACISM.Rolandi+ (talk) 12:16, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Alexikoua,Dr.K and Athenean delete my references and edits .They say that my references are POV (Even when the reference is a non-Albanian/non-greek well-known scholar).On the other hand they use greek politicans as references. I can't even use the talk page,because the only thing they say is that my references are always "POV" and "manifesto".How is it possible that all my references are unreliable?Isn't this strange?Look at other Albanian editors.Their work is always undone by these three users because their references are always,but always "unraliable" and "POV".How is it possible?Rolandi+ (talk) 12:41, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

@Rolandi: To name an example, it's kinda weird to insist on adding citations such as this: ], which claims that the Wars of Alexander the Great were fought by Albanians ]. Even an editor who is not involved in historical articles will find it POV and unreliable. It's also not a case of ethnic conflict, as I've worked together with several editors that share the same national background with you.Alexikoua (talk) 12:59, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Why did Athenean lie?He said that I falsified sources at "Baku spirit".My warning there was a mistake.Why don't you go and ask the warning editor?Also note he didn't warned me for falsification. Athenean said I had falsified the source at "Vlachs".Why don't you go at the Vlach's editing history and see the truth?Why don't you see what the book used as reference says in reality?Also Zoupan said there is a problem with me at "Vlachs".Which is the problem?Zoupan don't know how to lie! Athenean said I falsified the sources at "Illyrians".Where is the falsification there?My edit there said that according to some scholars Illyrians are the ancestors of Albanians (this means that it's a theory,I didn't make it a fact). Athenean said that I falsified the source at the "Greater Albania".I explained him that we had to introduce both greek and italian figures to make the article neutral,why didn't he mention this fact?Because the only thing Athenean wants is to lie about me. As I said the use of the Talk page with these users is useless as the only thing that these three users say is that others' references are always,but always "nationalism","POV" ,"propaganda" and "manifesto".It's not my fault that these three users always say that my references are "propaganda" and "POV". Also,Alexikoua,why do you mention only the case of Wars of Alexander?Why don't you mention all the cases where you have undone others' edits claiming their references are "POV" and "nationalism" and "propaganda"?Rolandi+ (talk) 13:23, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

It's very easy.There is so many edit warring between us because these three editors always,but always undo my edits .The talk page is useless because the only thing they do is to claim the others' references are always,but always "unacceptable","POV","nationalism","propaganda","manifesto","unreliable".I can't use the dispute noticeboards for hundreads articles,because it is ridiculous.The only thing to do is to prevent these three users from vandalizing Misplaced Pages,especially albania-related articles.I am sure that if these three users stop deleting other's edits and references only because they don't like them,there will not be any edit warring/problem at albanian related articles anymore.Also I suggest you to help editors about Balkans-related articles (for ex. if their references are reliable/POV etc).Rolandi+ (talk) 13:45, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Alexikoua doesn't agree to put the map of the Greater Albania at the "Greater Albania" article.He firstly said the the current map is detailed,but it's not the map of Greater Albania (the original map is based on the map of the League of Prizren ).Then he claimed that these maps are the the same,but they aren't.He said that we can't put the map of the Greater Albania there because "I am eager to see a map that paints everything in red" (meaning that I am a nationalist and maybe I have irridenstist ideas) while the national colours of Albania are the red AND THE BLACK.He doesn't agree because he doesn't like the map,this is the problem with these editors,they don't agree with others only because they want to control Misplaced Pages.Note that the current map shows Albanians in Albania and neighboring countries,not the Greater Albania based on the maps of the League of Prizren.Rolandi+ (talk) 14:19, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

The Balkans are subject to discretionary sanctions under WP:ARBMAC. Arbitration Enforcement may be a more efficient way of dealing with conduct issues than this noticeboard. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:43, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

To Robert McClenon. About time this happened. More attention needs to be paid because to many shenanigans having been going on and some Albanian editors have been intimidated and i include myself in this as being as such. Few Albanian editors have been engaging with Misplaced Pages recently because of such things and some editors of a non-Albanian heritage seem to be making changes in articles without even discussing it. I call to your attention the article Aoös whose name was changed by Greek editors (such as user User:Hwasus > ] without consensus (and due to Albanian editors no longer continuing for a while) while in previous discussions about a name change was resolved that Vjosa stays as the page's name (]). Who would i go to regarding this very serious matter.Resnjari (talk) 19:45, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Alexikoua deleted many informations at Nicholas Leonicus Thomaeus,including the references that said that he Thomaeus might have been of Albanian origin,saying that "widely established international scholarship tend to disagree with what was written inside Albania during the People's Republic regime".Where did he learn that Thomaeus' albanian origin hypothesis is fabricated during the communist period in Albania?Also he deleted Jacque who isn't albanian.This is only racism and this is a big problem.Seriously this is ridiculous.Rolandi+ (talk) 17:44, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

To Rolandi, some Albanian sources from the communist period are tainted because they were ideologically driven and or forced by Enver to produce material that has many problems. For a list of academics who managed to go against the communist regime and produce good research like Eqrem Cabej see book "Pipa, Arshi (1989). The politics of language in socialist Albania. East European Monographs. As for non Albanian western sources state Nicholas Leonicus Thomaeus was a Greek. This is possible as during the time Nicholas was born there were some Greeks (merchants and so on) in Durres, as it was a coastal port and international city (its also had Albanians). See Robert Elsie article page 3 (. The stuff on numbers in the Cham Albanian article, the Topulli stuff is resolved. Send me on my talk page the stuff from researcher Nazarko (he is a good source -full inline citation though and source). I'll work something out regarding Idromeno on that basis.Resnjari (talk) 19:45, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Hi Resnjari.you said that western sources state that Thomaeus was greek.And Jacque,isn't he a western source?I am not saying that Thomaeus wasn't greek,I am saying that he might have been albanian (hypothesis).Also where did you learn that the Albanian hypothesis was fabricated by the Communist Albanians?The fact that many albanian scholars ideologically were driven and or forced by Enver Hoxha to produce material that has many problems doesn't mean that the albanian hypothesis was fabricated by them.See also sources like Jacque.Alexikoua deleted many infos that were there since a long time and added the greek hypothesis.The right thing to do is to include all hypothesis.Rolandi+ (talk) 20:19, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

• "Comment": Rolandi+ is proving to be a problem editor on a number of articles surrounding the Balkans. I suggest that he/she is an aggressive editor who's WP:NOTHERE. Leaving missives such as this on my talk page is not appreciated when I have read through the sources he/she has used to introduce changes to content on Vlachs. The user has WP:CHERRYPICKING sources addressing a variety of complex issues and academic evaluation in order create WP:SYNTH. I made the mistake of allowing the user enough WP:ROPE to continue refactoring the same content, for which I take responsibility: I made the wrong call. As the "Vlachs" article falls under the general scope of WP:ARBMAC, I agree with Robert McClenon that this is something to be dealt with via WP:ARB. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:30, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

In my limited observation, there is a great deal of battleground editing and quarreling about articles about the Balkan region. One reason is of course that the Balkan region has too many times been a real battleground, including being the origin of World War One, which killed fifteen million people. ArbCom was prudent in putting the Balkans under discretionary sanctions as an area that the community does not deal with effectively at noticeboards such as this one. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:02, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

I think you're aware that most of my editing is in the area I know, being Eastern Europe. Being a glutton for punishment, I like to keep my hand in on other contentious areas where I don't have any doubts as to my neutrality. ArbCom is, unfortunately, an extremely arduous process for those who are involved in working through complaints (and my sympathies are extended to them) as there's a tendency for involved users to continue their battles there rather than follow the processes. Unfortunately, the end product is that problem editors keep getting out of being sanctioned by the skin of their teeth, only to keep their heads down for a period of time and resume when they're confident that enough time has elapsed for prior behavioural problems to have been forgotten. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:27, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Irina Harpy,why don't you mention the fact that the discussion (and the problem) between us started because you changed (falsified) the citation at the reference.See here what the source says.Another user deleted your falsifications and explained everything.Why don't you mention this fact?Why?I agree that Balkans related articles are almost all problematic and vandalised but this doesn't mean you can LIE!Rolandi+ (talk) 08:46, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Iryna Harpy Rolandi just needs some more practice. One just needs to have a in depth discussion about things and too tone it down a bit. At the moment it seems i am the only one doing engaging with him without resorting to name calling and so on. I value Rolandi wanting to contribute; it’s just he has to be more cautious about certain sources or how the source is used in general. There are few Albanian editors these days on Misplaced Pages. Things have become dormant and some editors of non-Albanian heritage have taken it upon themselves to do for example article name changes (like the Vjosa example i cited) without community consultation or to call POV anything a editor might want to undertake in adding to an article (even when the source/s is peer reviewed and very credible) (see: Talk:Cham Albanians). I have had these issues multiple times now (in the end my edits have gone through almost in their entirety) but it has taken too much time, energy and effort which though was done in good faith. There were cases were even my cognitive abilities where questioned which was quite offensive. (See article Talk:Greek Muslims). What you might call "quarreling" i have an issue because not all editors are equal. Some who have privileges are editors from a background who may have less than polite views regarding people of Albanian heritage. There should be non-Balkan editors adjudicating certain articles so those who have those privileges don't abuse them or intimidate editors who insist on change (the later must make their case though). Merit and content based on Misplaced Pages policy should be the outcome everyone conducts themselves upon. More oversight is needed or absent that the removal of privileges (auto patrol etc) of some editors for those engaging in such behavior so as to make it a level playing field. Misplaced Pages is a democratic forum, it should not be a place where Greek editors have privileges over Albanian ones or vice versa.Resnjari (talk) 09:12, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

The user makes up his own rules, again, and again.--Zoupan 16:35, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Why don't you mention the fact that there is a consensus at the talk page?Why?Why do you want to delete informations +add others without consensus?Why? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rolandi+ (talk • contribs) 17:03, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

I fail to see a concensus in the talkpage. Can't understand what you really mean.Alexikoua (talk) 18:43, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

There is no concensus about our recent edits,so they have to all to be deleted until a consensus.I said that at talk page,you commented but you did't said no.Zoupan and Alexikoua agree with the fact that my edits (and others made by other non-albanian editors) have to be deleted until consesnus (note that the edits of some other non-albanian editors have been there since a long time but you deleted them because you don't like them).But you don't agree with the fact that your recent edits have to be deleted until a consesnus too (as some of them are clear vandalism). You always,but always (just see your editing's history) delete others' edits and references.Strange.You always delete albanian's editors edits but you don't know what to say.Alexikoua deleted my edits at "Kara Mahmud Pasha" saying "rv poorly cited (you have been advised how to do that properly without false ISBNs)".Actually there wasn't any ISBN there.He LIED. This is what some specific users :Alexikoua,Zoupan,Dr.K ,Athenean do,they just destroy others' work,especially the work of Albanian editors. Note:It's the second time that unregistred users delete my work.After the habit of those four user to delete my edits was introduced here,some unregistred users are undoing my edits.STRANGE!Rolandi+ (talk) 19:47, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

After the habit of those four user to delete my edits was introduced here,some unregistred users are undoing my edits.STRANGE!: Actually your insinuation is not strange at all. That was the favourite MO of blocked sock Bonender: Are you a sock puppet account of Alexikoua ? Cause i will seek investigation cf. Malbin210's SPI. Strange indeed. Isn't it? Δρ.Κ.  01:22, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Also here you accuse Athenean of being Alexikoua's sock: disruptive editing by Alexikoua's sock,maybe needs reporting Funny that. Very similar phraseology to Bonender's. Really funny stuff, ain't it? Δρ.Κ.  06:56, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

The real fun is that you claim that people that doesn't have the same ideas with you are socks.Why don't you go and see how many contributions you have deleted by claiming that others are sock...hundreads...thousands.How is possible that you edit at the same article at the same time?Rolandi+ (talk) 09:37, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

• Block Rolandi+ and move on I'm amazed at the lack of action and long discussions. This in an incredibly simple matter that does not need to take up anyone's time. Rolandi+ is definitely guilty of multiple policy violations as clearly demonstrated in the discussion. No other user appears to have done anything wrong. I suggest an admin just closes this discussion with a suitable block for Rolandi+. When a situation is this clear, there is no need for all the drama currently taking place.Jeppiz (talk) 22:03, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

As I see Roland had already reflected on his wrong doing, which I fail to see on Alexikoua, and what is more outrages I see that people fail to understand the subtle difference of personal offences and arguments. Roland is being offended here and still is argumenting his positions. Resnjari is right, there are very few Albanian in Wiki, which is being 'taken over' from sources provided from our neighbors (as in the Vjosa case as he/she mentions). This to be honest shouldn't be normal and not fair. This is almost supression due to numbers. Wiki should be a place of consensus, harmony and inclusions, not the place where biggest actors surpress the smallest. QTeuta (talk) 13:13, 17 July 2015 (UTC)QTeuta

Edit warring on Albanians

There is now an edit war going on at this article between User:Rolandi+ and User:SilentResident. See article history. I've notified SilentResident. Rolandi+ is already party to this discussion. --Hammersoft (talk) 21:35, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

I've notified SilentResident about discretionary sanctions, as he does not appear to have ever been notified in the past. ~ Rob 21:54, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

I deeply apologize for the 3-revert rule, I just tried to revert the POV edits by the user Rolandi+. Feel free to check the page's history Albania. Again, my apologies if I broke the 3-revert rules, this was not my intention. --SilentResident (talk) 21:59, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

When Rolandi+ insisted on his POV edits on Albanians and refused to provide any reliable sources for his edits in the appropriate talk page, even after 3 reverts, I realized that I had no other option but to ask politely for a moderator's attention on the issue, here: https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Future_Perfect_at_Sunrise#Unsourced_POV_edits_on_population_figures I didn't had any bad intentions, I just tried to prevent POV edits on the page. My apologies. --SilentResident (talk) 22:29, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Discretionary sanctions warnings should not be given on the basis of a single edit-warring incident on a single article. That's why we have the 3RR rule. Only when the editing causes disruption in more than one Balkans-related article and there is a pattern of disruptive editing in multiple Balkans-related articles a DS warning should be issued. SilentResident does not qualify for a DS warning under these criteria. Δρ.Κ.  22:53, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

This has become ludicrous. Reverting edits by a DE does not merit sanction warnings. As noted by Dr. K, Rolandi+ has established a NOTHERE editing pattern and is oblivious to BRD to the point of being pure BATTLEGROUND. DS warnings for GF editors (particularly where they are obviously aware of the existence of the DS) smacks of punitive action inferring that the editor is acting in bad faith. Surely there is a point at which Misplaced Pages sysops should review the nature of incidents and not shift the onus to the reverter while ignoring the BURDEN on the contributor to back up their content changes/additions with cite checked RS (nor allow for non-sysops to play the blame game by using DS warnings to be used as badges of shame). This can only be construed as rewarding bad faith editing on some obscure point of POV righteousness. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 01:12, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

A DS notification is just that - a notification. As the template itself states, it is not an implication of any wrongdoing, but merely a notification. If he plans to continue editing in that area, it's something he should be aware of. I meant nothing more by it than that. I agree that my warning did not meet Dr.K's criteria, but those criteria are not part of any actual policy that I've been able to find. ~ Rob 01:55, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

A DS notification is just that - a notification. As the template itself states, it is not an implication of any wrongdoing, but merely a notification.: That does not mean that one should proceed with notification overkill or notify in the absence of good grounds for a notification. A DS is designed to warn about disruption in the Balkans area. An edit-warring dispute in a single Balkans article does not equal disruption in the Balkans area. Good judgment is needed when using Arbcom instruments. You will not find this requirement in any policy but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Δρ.Κ.  02:51, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

DS notification is not a sanction. It's notification that special policy applies, for editors working in a topic area that have done something that merited attention. That something may or may not have been actionable but attracted attention.

We had prior arguments over whether it was a hostile action or abusive to DS notify someone, and the consensus was that involved parties should not under that circumstance but others' doing so was not a problem. Was there something specific here that was a problem?... Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 03:04, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Thank you George. I have seen the prior debates and I understand the arguments. Having said that, I think a notification to an editor who has not exhibited disruptive behaviour in the area of the Balkans is not necessary. A single article in the Balkans area is not the area of the Balkans. Here we have Rolandi+, an edit-warring champion in the area of the Balkans edit-warring, as is his custom, with an editor who has no record of disruptive behaviour in the Balkans area. I think it is an overkill to give the latter a DS warning absent any evidence that his behaviour is going to spread to at least one more Balkans article. I think using discretion in such cases is a good idea. Δρ.Κ.  03:37, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

It is somehow speculative to assume that an admin at 3RRN will issue DS warnings to the parties but even if s/he does I don't see the problem with being informed at the noticeboard. I think it is preferable to see the warning at the noticeboard than being slapped with it at one's talkpage. There are also other ways to inform editors about DS without slapping them with a formal notice. Knowledge is power and other such slogans are ok but being slapped with a DS notice on their talkpage is intimidating to some editors never mind the disclaimers and associated slogans. Δρ.Κ.  04:09, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Echoing Dr. K's sentiments, the problem is that I would consider the notification as being a bad judgement call on behalf of BU Rob13. While experienced editors are aware of the fact that, technically, it isn't an accusation of wrongful editing behaviour, such warnings should be issued bearing in mind the context (it takes two to tango, but substantiating who's leading the dance is of primary concern). In this instance, the new contributor did not receive the same warning to at least meet with a sense of parity, whereas it was directed at a more experienced editor who was reverting badly sourced, POV content whereas the other party (whose amendments to the content actually carry the BURDEN) was not following through discussions per BRD. The new contributor has already been previously blocked, harrassed non-partisan editors and cast WP:ASPERSIONS as to the nature of their editing, and is treating Misplaced Pages articles surrounding Albanian issues as a BATTLEGROUND. I'll admit to the fact that I've already been worn down by the opponent by trying to comply with AGF, this courtesy has not been extended to any editors attempting to communicate with Rolandi+ (see the section on my talk page + the diffs outlining multiple examples of harassment of other editors in this thread, not simply this subsection).

While I'm not condemning BU Rob13 for posting the DS notification, at the very least a reciprocal alert should have also been posted on Rolandi+'s talk page. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:28, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Good point Iryna, but I did that some weeks ago as soon as I realised we were faced with yet another edit-warring champion in the Balkans area. Δρ.Κ.  06:04, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Propose topic ban of Rolandi+

Just a few days ago, Rolandi posted this, saying (and I quote) "As I said ,we need to be more carefull in the future and stop edit warring.". Yet today he racked up 3 reverts at Albanians, no problem. Is there anyone here who still believes a word this user says? He has lost all credibility in my opinion. Any more warnings are a waste of time, he will make all the right noises to avoid punishment and then as soon as he thinks no one is looking he will revert to form (no pun intended). I am thus proposing that he be topic banned from Balkan related articles, broadly construed. Proposed. Athenean (talk) 05:41, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

• "Support". While I would be reticent to support a general block against Rolandi+ (as has been suggested in the earlier thread), if the user is genuinely committed to being HERE, s/he needs to familiarise themselves with WP:PG by working on articles outside of the contentious ones directly and indirectly involving Albania. Throwing themselves into the deep end of an area they have partisan alliances to without any experience in moderating their behaviour is bound to be distressing for both the user and regular editors. At some point in the future, after demonstrably positive input, the topic ban could be reviewed. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 06:23, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Irina Harpy,all the problem here is that I said you that I will report you because you sent me a false warning and because you falsificated the reference at Vlachs.This is tha all the problem.Why don't you go and see what really happened at Albanians?Why?That editor and me used the talk page and I explained him his mistakes.Also,my edits aren't reverts of his edits (except one only after we talk at the talk page),but improvements of his recent work.Go and see to believe it.So don't try to LIE AGAIN.Rolandi+ (talk) 09:02, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Also go and see what SilentResident did at Albanians.Milliyet says that 500 thousand have consciousness of their Albanian origin while there are 1.3 mln albanians in turkey.This is POV .It means he isn't neutral and then the problem is me.The only problem is that some editors delete informations (not always added by me ,for example at Albanians ) claiming that the references aren't reliable.When the reference is a well known scholar,the problem is the user who deletes it.Also I didn't make edit-warring,I improved some informations (some of them were added by SilentResident) and reverted his edits only one time .

Also ,after this ANI was created and some Greek editors were involved on it,how is it possible that some other greek editors started deleting well established informations about Albanians?No, this isn't a problem,the problem strangely is only me! Rolandi+ (talk) 09:29, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Also SilentResident doesn't need to LIE.He said he deleted my POV,but the informations that he deleted without any clear explanation and without concensus are there since a long time.Those informations weren't added by me.SO HE LIED AGAIN AS HE DID ABOUT MILLIYET REFERENCE.AND THEN THE PROBLEM IS ME!!!!You are very neutral!Rolandi+ (talk) 10:03, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Support topic ban Rolandi+ has shown beyond any doubt they are WP:NOTHERE, and continues to violate several policies. The continued comments by Rolandi+ inthis thread further show the user is unwilling to hear and continues to insist the problem is everybody else. Broad topic ban only solution.Jeppiz (talk) 10:10, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Rolandi+, you have just attacked me and called me a liar. This is very sad and unfortunate of your part. I have expected that, like how I am trying to be polite with you, I could have enjoyed a minimum level of reciprocity in my politeness to you. I wish you could show some maturity at least, because Misplaced Pages is not a playground where we fight with other Wiki users, nor it is a bar where we accuse them of blatant lies. While you speak with accusations and insults, I speak with logic. While you are resorting to edit wars with other users, reverts and insults, I have at least tried asking for your cooperation in bringing more sources for citation. I have nothing against you, and it only saddens me that Misplaced Pages is overshadowed by people of your kind whose the actions disrupt the peaceful environment and cooperation with other users. I am very sad, and I am sorry. --SilentResident (talk) 10:23, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

And dear community, because I am involved in this unfortunate tension with Rolandi+, I don't think I am eligible in taking position regarding Rolandi's ban suggestion. (so I won't be voicing pro-banning or against banning him, and will stay neutral).--SilentResident (talk) 10:30, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Strongly Oppose': My preference is that further discussion is had with Rolandi. When i have done so how certain sources or numbers may be an issue, he has taken it on board and relented (for example the Cham Albanian page or the Tomasso article). Some editors here who are advocating for a ban have in the past referred to certain proposed changes with peer reviewed material i have done as "POV" (while after backing off when i invoked Misplaced Pages policy and so on and in the end have gone through. They have also shown to be very selective with Misplaced Pages policy or even to the point of making it up to prevent peer reviewed material going into an article. For more see: Talk:Souliotes) and have said things such as questioning my cognitive abilities which was very offensive (For more see Talk:Greek Muslims). I do not trust some editors’ motives in this instance for banning Rolandi, due in part to my experiences with them. There are many Greek and Serbian editors, but so few Albanian ones these days. I call for outside adjudication regarding the matter so trust and good faith can be restored and some articles that are in need of a fix up to be done as such with peer reviewed material and free of intimidation and personal attacks as i have experienced repeatedly for a select number of editors here now going after Rolandi. Outside intervention is needed so as to prevent any ganging up like activity from occurring.Resnjari (talk) 10:40, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

SilentResident,your words are very beautifull.Why don't you go and see what did you do at Albanians article?Why?Also keep in mind that I do not intend to offend anyone,I said that you lied because you really lied.And your words (your lies about what really happened at Albanians )may send me to a block.Rolandi+ (talk) 10:59, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Alexioua and me have made edit warring (Alexikoua has made edit warring at hundreads and thousands other cases about Balkans related articles ,more than me) so Athenean proposed topic ban ONLY for me.Interesting!Rolandi+ (talk) 11:08, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

I want to report Rolandi for trying to blakcmail me now, in the Talk: Albanians, he threatened me twice: "So revert your edits about the albanians in turkey,or I will report you after that ANI" and "I may be blocked for this topic,but this doesn't mean that I can't report you for your vandalism.So go and delete your edits about albanians in turkey". He is basically threatening me that if I don't undo his reverted POV edits, I will get reported! Please, any help? --SilentResident (talk) 11:15, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes,go and read Misplaced Pages's rules about the use of concensus when you want to delete well-established informations.I am involved at this ANI now,after that I will report your falsification of sources (see what Milliyet really says about the number of albanians in Turkey).I also will report you for your lies (you said that you deleted my POV,while they weren't added by me ) and for your vandalism (you deleted well -established referenced infos without concensus ).Rolandi+ (talk) 11:22, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Support topic ban. I tried explaining to him the importance of having reliable facts and sources in Misplaced Pages's articles, and especially in the sensitive ones related to the Balkan region. This person however is pushing things off edge by trying to blackmail the me and accuse the others! I agree with Jeppiz and the people above, this user should be banned, at least from the Balkan-related articles. --SilentResident (talk) 12:09, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

This ANI is about Alexikoua and me,but the discussion here is only about me.who are discussing?athenean,zoupan and dr.k who have deleted almost all my work and edits (and many other's edits,just see their history ).also,i had said to irina harpy and silentresident that i will report them,so thay came here talking against me!this isn't fair.why isn't there any problem with alexikoua's edit warring ?why?he has deleted many others' work and edits (not only albanian editors )only by saying "manifesto","nationalism""propaganda" etc. This isn't fair and it's sure this will not end here.if neended,i will try contacting wikipedia for the fact that the discussion here is only about me.you can ban me,but this will not end so easily. This is not a thread,i am just saying what is going to happen.this is ridiculous,the discussion here is made only by some editors that don't have the moral right to discuss here,for the only reason they have been accused from me for several things.on the other hand,alexikoua isn't mentioned on this discussion. Also note that I haven't made edit warring since that ANI.The only one is at Albanians where SilentResident deleted many infos (with a part I agree,with some no ),I tried to explain him the Misplaced Pages's rules (I would send him a warning but I am at this ANI now ).This isn't my fault.Anyways I will be more carefull in the future and I will solve problem at Albanians at ANI .Rolandi+ (talk) 15:57, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

• To be frank, Rolandi+ has made no contribution (or "work"). A topic ban would possibly stop his disruptive editing if he decides to change his ways, and give him a chance to contribute. If he then continues his behaviour which we've seen thus far, definitely block as per WP:NOTHERE.--Zoupan 00:49, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Zoupan,you said I have made no contribution....where did you learn that?Go see my editing history (all my editings at balkans ralated articles and balkans non-related articles ) and then come and talk here. As I said: This ANI is about Alexikoua and me,but the discussion here is only about me.who are discussing?athenean,zoupan and dr.k who have deleted almost all my work and edits (and many other's edits,just see their history ).also,i had said to irina harpy and silentresident that i will report them,so thay came here talking against me!this isn't fair.why isn't there any problem with alexikoua's edit warring ?why?he has deleted many others' work and edits (not only albanian editors )only by saying "manifesto","nationalism""propaganda" etc. This isn't fair and it's sure this will not end here.If neended,i will try contacting wikipedia for the fact that the discussion here is only about me.you can ban me,but this will not end so easily. This is not a thread,i am just saying what is going to happen.this is ridiculous,the discussion here is made only by some editors that don't have the moral right to discuss here,for the only reason they have been accused from me for several things.on the other hand,alexikoua isn't mentioned on this discussion. Also note that I haven't made edit warring since that ANI.The only one is at Albanians where SilentResident deleted many infos not added by me (with a part I agree,with some no ),I tried to explain him the Misplaced Pages's rules (I would send him a warning but I am at this ANI now ).This isn't my fault.Anyways I will be more carefull in the future and I will solve problem the at Albanians at ANI .Rolandi+ (talk) 08:36, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Zoupan i am very concerned that you have inferred that Rolandi "has made no contribution (or "work")". He has contributed to many other non-Balkan articles and his edits have stayed. Only an administrator can make that call. The issue is with Balkan related material. My advice to you Rolandi is use google books and scholar if you do not have access to a university database of journal articles and academic books. Believe me you will save yourself a lot of trouble. Look for Western peer reviewed material that has done work in the field and do google the author to make sure their work does not have creditability issues or they as a academic. Then do as you will. I have been going through your Balkan related edits and they have been challenged on a variety of matters, a sizable amount with due reason. I understand where you are coming from as an Albanian. But be cautious. I do not want you to get banned. Going through the archive of some of the articles and their talk pages just very recently, a picture is emerging that it is a select few who have engaged in making editing for Albanian editors quite difficult. Nothing has been done about that, yet you are making yourself the focus of attention and giving them the justification to continue with such forms of intimidation while making them getting away with it. There are editors in here who have abused their privileges. The focus needs to be upon them, not you. I urge you most emphatically as one Albanian to another or as a brother to brother to reflect carefully and take into consideration what i have written and how to go about editing controversial topics. There are few Albanian editors and their numbers have shrunk here already and continues to do so. Don't allow yourself to be another in that line. Be aware its difficult for us like editors of other backgrounds like the Palestinians, Turks, African Americans and so on who also have low numbers contributing and have issues in having their voice heard. Its harder for us because this is after all a Western platform. Don't forget that. Take care Rolandi. Resnjari (talk) 09:17, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

As for Resnjari's advice for me,I totally agree and I will be more carefull in the future.Rolandi+ (talk) 09:59, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Personally, I disagree with Resnjari that Rolandi+'s behavior is really affecting the rest of the Albanian editors negatively or positively. At least not for me. I don't know if Rolandi is Albanian or not, and that little matters. My unpleasant encounter with Rolandi+ does not affect in any way my attitude towards other Albanians. I have met other editors, of other ethnicities and their behavior can not (and should not) be compared to that of Rolandi+, and so, it is logical that here in the Administrator noticeboard, the matter is not the ethnicity of a person, but his behavior and attitude. Rolandi+ is subject for his indimitative attitude. Of course this in no way this means that the other Albanian editors of Misplaced Pages could be affected or related to Rolandi's case in any way, just because of his ethnicity. And this should not be allowed to happen. Misplaced Pages should and must encourage the and contribution of all the people regardless of ethnicity. --SilentResident (talk) 12:34, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Like i have said in the past, an in depth discussion free of diatribe with Rolandi will go a long way to solving these issues. How is it that after i have engaged with Rolandi that he has desisted regarding certain articles, while the rest of you continue with the path you have taken regarding him ? It has created a situation where all positions have hardened and no progress has occurred. I never said anything about Rolandi’s behavior affecting Albanian editors. But I definitely want him around. There are so few Albanian editors around and he has a passion for doing the editing task and patrolling pages. It’s just how he has gone about it that is the issue and needs refinement. You say you have had a unpleasant encounter with Rolandi, I have more than a few more than a few with Athenean who has even questioned my cognitive abilities (what the heck does that have to do with editing the article!) and called my peer reviewed edits and proposed changes better suited to a “blog” and even called changes regarding articles relating to Albanians “irrelevant”. And yet I have extended in a spirit of good will to him even after all of that to only engage with the material (and to do no personal attacks) and all he has done is repeatedly continued with such mannerisms. Alexikoua on the other hand (part from saying POV, POV, POV to my proposed edits based on peer reviewed sources in the talk page as a first reaction) has even made up Misplaced Pages policy in order in an attempt to restrict peer reviewed sources from going into a article (like the Albanian name of the Souliots) saying that a “10% threshold” was needed without providing any proof (It went through in the end, but not without much problems by other editors also). What am I to make of that then especially, for example, when Alexikoua has numerous privileges and undoing edits? All my edits are based on sources of the highest quality. I can vouch for all and albeit one (due to “original research reasons”), all have gone through. But how much stuff did I have to write to argue for the inclusion of those edits in the talk page because I was accused of POV pushing – and these are for edits I have proposed in the talk page. I have not edited them even into the article yet!) It has become an absurdity frankly! Also if did place these issues on the Administrator notice board who would act upon it anyway? It would be me pitted against people who have privileges. The system is not balanced and is currently two tiered. Because of this, my trust in the system is very minimal at the moment. It is on this basis also that I distrust this campaign against Rolandi. Yes Rolandi needs to clean up his act, but it’s a no to any form of a ban.Resnjari (talk) 20:56, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Strongly oppose:(see: Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet_investigations/Sulmuesi, user has been indef blocked as a sockpuppetAlexikoua (talk) 20:50, 23 July 2015 (UTC)) I admit to have not read in depth the technical arguments in the articles and the full details the case with Rolandi+ and Alexikou. Nevertheless, I can clearly see that in relations to challenging articles related to Albania, the other editors belong to countries that openly disagree with the most Albanian-promoted version of histories, e.g. Greek, Serbian, Russian (all supportive of pro-slavic, pro-orthodox christian and anti-albanian theses). I find it equally disturbing that the users with common views opposing the Albanian vision of history, unite to ban an Albanian editor. I have the impression that this has nothing to do with Rolandi+ (despite his flamboyant temperament), since similar heated attitudes are exhibited by most other editors. Then, how do we solve the disputes? Easy, create an anti-Albanian majority and kick the Albanian out. While it might have worked in the past, it is not fair. Admins should be careful to not punish editors from the tiny nation of Albania, only because the opposing pro-slavic pro-orthodox sides (Greeks, Serbian, Macedonian, Russian) are more numerous. In my opinion, this anti-Albanian discriminating behavior is not fair and should stop. OppositeGradient (talk) 12:59, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

OppositeGradient, that is a comment without any merit, and it violates WP:NPA. There is no anti-Albanian conspiracy here. Personally, I don't think I've ever edited an article even remotely related to anything Albanian, I'm neither pro-Albanian or anti-Albanian. Your whole argument seem to be nationalistic (we shouldn't ban Rolandi+ because he is Albanian as well as there's an anti-Albanian conspiracy at play). At ANI, we should not care one way or another. Bad conduct is bad conduct regardless of a user's nationality. The fact of the matter is that Rolandi+ has violated Misplaced Pages policies time and time again, and continues to violate them despite several warnings. Everything else is irrelevant.Jeppiz (talk) 17:15, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Ethnicity-based arguments are the silliest form of discourse and do not belong anywhere and especially on Misplaced Pages. Same goes for ethnicity-based conspiracies which are an even worse form of argument. Δρ.Κ.  17:26, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Jeppiz due to my experience with certain editors, saying that the Albanian factor is not present in their persistence regarding making editing difficult POV is very questionable. In my experience as I have mentioned repeatedly in previous posts now, I can cite many examples to the contrary. And it is some of those same editors now also going after Rolandi. Makes on wonder. Dr. K, it no conspiracy. Ask Athenean, why my cognitive abilities (or of any interest to him) were questioned or why Albanians are “irrelevant” in an article that relates about Albanians (e.g. Northern Epirus? The ethnic issue here is at play for some editors in how they view those changes done by editors who they don’t like. How else does one interpret their interest about a person's cognitive abilities, making up Misplaced Pages policy and saying Albanians are irreverent? Resnjari (talk) 20:56, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Jeppiz, you can be characterized as an Exception that proves the rule :) Please note that I mentioned well-known attitudes toward Albanians, instead conspiracies focus on non-evident facts. In fact, the question is whether the other editors oppose the Albanian guy i) because they had a full disagreement on the respective topic, or ii) because they blindly respect Misplaced Pages rules. Stated otherwise, those editors would be credible if they would find his behavior disruptive despite agreeing with him. Let me further iterate, Rolandi+ is not significantly more combatant than for instance Alexikou, right (plus minus the same style)? Then, why do the 'neutral' editors above not raise a flag on Alexikou as well? The only explanation is because they publicly share his opinions on the articles under concern. Jeppiz, it is very easy to blame a person without seeing the big picture. Perhaps you and I would also lose our cool if several editors gang against us because of our opinions (not behaviors). For instance, he mentions that his reliable sources are mistreated and ignored to the point of driving him mad. Analyzing those behaviors is highly important for the quality Misplaced Pages. For this reason I think we should not selectively punish Rolandi+. Instead we should all work together on trying to break the existing 'gang-style' lobbying in Albania-related articles. Meanwhile I advise Rolandi+ and all editors involved in heated discussions to cool down a bit and let go. OppositeGradient (talk) 17:39, 16 July 2015 (UTC) (blocked sock struck Swarm 01:45, 30 July 2015 (UTC))

Rolandi+ is not significantly more combatant than for instance Alexikou, right (plus minus the same style)? Then, why do the 'neutral' editors above not raise a flag on Alexikou as well? This betrays a total lack of understanding of the content that Rolandi+ is pushing in this area. Calling Alexikoua "combantant" shows no understanding of the disruptive MO of Rolandi who is pushing his POV through falsification of sources and OR. But we have been through these points in multiple fora as well as in this report, so I am not sure why you seem oblivious to them. Alexikoua has been editing this area for years and is an expert in this subject area. He is a very knowledgeable and moderate editor who has reached consensus with many Albanian editors before. He has also faithfully countered wave after wave of relentless and disuptive socks over the years defending Misplaced Pages from socks who wanted to convert many historical figures to Albanian including George Washington's mother Mary Ball Washington. Alexikoua should be congratulated for his tireless efforts through the years defending Misplaced Pages's policies not unfairly criticised haughtily from those who have no idea of the relevant article content. That he has a problem with Rolandi+ is indicative of Rolandi's POV-push problems. You are welcome to your opinion obviously but if you do not understand or investigate more deeply the parameters of this discussion you should not accuse Alexikoua for no good reason. Δρ.Κ.  18:23, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

My friend, please do not tell me you think Alexikou is a hero :) The way I see it is two combatant editors showing similar attitudes. The only difference is that most editors commenting here have a history of disagreeing with Rolandi+, which makes the credibility of his inquisition questionable. OppositeGradient (talk) 18:43, 16 July 2015 (UTC) (blocked sock struck Swarm 01:45, 30 July 2015 (UTC))

Please do not patronise me when you address me. I don't know you at all, let alone consider you my friend. I will not repeat myself but I will just reiterate one point: You are completely unaware of the content issues involved so offering your opinion on a content issue you have no idea about is not constructive. And yes, Alexikoua has been defending the content policies of Misplaced Pages, a fact that completely escapes you because you have no idea of the content involved. But I said that before. Δρ.Κ.  19:39, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Please note everybody, "OppositeGradient" is a sock of User:Sulmues, one of the most disruptive editors to plague the Balkans topic areas . He always thought in ethnic "terms" and that disruptive Albanian editors should not be banned no matter how disruptive just becaue "it's not fair". Athenean (talk) 23:39, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

@Athenean: I suspect that you're correct, and that a WP:SPI is in order. The similarities in MO (language, battleground, personal, harass, etc.) are distinctive. OppositeGradient is currently operating in the same manner on the current Kosovo RfC. S/he has admitted to being this IP, but has been active there as this, this, and this IP at the least. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 01:25, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

"Alexikoua should be congratulated for his tireless efforts". Yep so then why does such an editor then try to make up Misplaced Pages policy. A selective "moderate editor who has reached consensus with many Albanian editors before". That is open to interpretation. Not all would agree. Resnjari (talk) 20:56, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

• Strong support Rolandi+ is a combative, edit-warring POV-pusher who has triggered all the POV-push alarm bells in this area of the Balkans. His edit-warring and POV edits align closely to the edits of countless socks which have plagued this area for years. Δρ.Κ.  18:30, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

As I said I will be more carefull in the future .Rolandi+ (talk) 18:44, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Comment: I Strongly Oppose any ban on Rolandi, in light of all things cited in my above comments.Resnjari (talk) 20:56, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

You have already given your vote above, so please strike out this second vote. --T*U (talk) 23:02, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

I have added the word comment to the above sentence. However I strongly oppose any ban on Rolandi for the reasons i have outlined and due to the editor involved in calling for such a thing.Resnjari (talk) 07:53, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

The last thing to say is that I will be more carefull in the future .Rolandi+ (talk) 21:26, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

• Support topic ban for Rolandi+, but oppose general block. I agree with Resnjari that Rolandi+ shows signs of willingness to learn how Misplaced Pages works, but the edit history in Balkan-related pages shows that the editor will need to learn how to edit in a NPOV way. After a period of, say, half a year or one year, Rolandi+ will have the chance to show ability to follow Misplaced Pages guidelines (and possibly also will be able to learn punctuation rules) and may then apply for lifting of the topic ban, which I will support if the general edit history shows improvement. On another note, I will strongly lift my voice against all arguments above that are based on nationality. Being Albanian, Greek, Bulgarian, Siamese or whatever has no relevance to this discussion. --T*U (talk) 23:01, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

I also oppose an outright ban, he is willing to learn the rules and can edit constructively. Maybe three months will be enough to make him stop and think, I am sure after that he will be very welcome on those articles. Naphtha Termix (talk) 04:34, 17 July 2015 (UTC) (indeffed sock struck --Swarm 01:36, 30 July 2015 (UTC))

Regarding Rolandi, subscribe to some of the journal databases that Misplaced Pages is offering access to. Francis and Taylor has much stuff that relates to humanities type material that involves Balkan topics. As for TU-nor's comment that "I will strongly lift my voice against all arguments above that are based on nationality. Being Albanian, Greek, Bulgarian, Siamese or whatever has no relevance to this discussion." I will most strongly lift my voice and disagree with that view due to the following. I have shown evidence to the contrary and can do so even more. All things come into play because some editors reason's for claiming POV or refusing peer reviewed sources and data in an article have been based not on Misplaced Pages policy but other 'reasons'. These same editors are the same ones most adamant in wanting to ban Rolandi. All things must be considered because they are selective when using Misplaced Pages policy and sometimes have tried to make up Misplaced Pages policy. If you want more evidence and exact words (+editors involved) and were its all located i am more than happy and willing to have that discussion here (i was not aware of this process before till a few days a go). Again i say, no ban of Rolandi for the reasons outlined.Resnjari (talk) 07:53, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

I read the Misplaced Pages's rules recently (carefully ) and I guarantee I have learned how to edit in a NPOV way.Also,you can see my recent constructive contributions in Balkans-related articles and in Balkans non related articles.So the best thing to do is to give me another chance.I know I have made many edit warring in the past but this will not happen in the future and I am sure for that.

I have read the Misplaced Pages's rules carefully and I will be more carefull in the future.

The right thing to do isn't to block me for some time,but to give me a "golden chance" and to patrol carefully all Balkan related articles.Rolandi+ (talk) 08:14, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

I want you to not just patrol, but edit too, but to do it right. There are so few Albanian editors already and intimidation on other pages has occurred by editors seeking a ban for you. You getting banned will stifle a dwindling Albanian voice so limited at the moment. No ban. Misplaced Pages is a democratic forum, a ban of this nature will further curtail freedom of expression. A censure or something along those lines with a final warning that if it occurs again, it will be a ban for Rolandi. But no ban at this moment.Resnjari (talk) 15:21, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

• Support topic ban for a specific period of time (up to a year). I have only glanced at this discussion, but the edits I have seen from Rolandi from my watchlist (particularly at Nicholas Leonicus Thomaeus) betray both a POV-ish attitude and a general WP:IDHT mentality. Regarding Alexikoua, as others have said, counting reverts is not the fairest way to apportion blame when dealing with such cases. I am however in favour of giving at least one more chance to people, and prepared for now to accept the argument that this is due to inexperience, and that there is remorse and will for improvement. Thus I would strongly recommend that during this ban period, Rolandi engage in article-writing in other areas and topics, so that he can a) gather experience about how things are done here and b) demonstrate his competence in constructive article-writing away from contentious topics. This should be sufficient to determine if he is a WP:SPA or WP:HERE... I also advise Rolandi to seek out a WP:MENTOR if he is serious about contributing constructively. Constantine ✍ 13:47, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Resnjari.The best thing isn't my block topic,but to give me my last chance.I have made many contructive contributions the recent days in both balkans related and non related articles .If I will do any other edit warring or any other bad thing like that,just ban me forever.

I read the Misplaced Pages's rules recently (carefully) and I will not make bad things anymore.I think I don't need to learn anymore,if I continue making edit warring or anything else,just ban me forever.

Also note that I have made many contributions that aren't related with Balkans articles,so I don't need time to learn or to demonstrate my competence (I have read Wikipedi's rules recently and I have done many contructive editings the recent days in both balkans related and non related articles ).I am using the talk page now ,as you can see in my recent history,I am not and will not make edit warring or anything else in the future.The only thing I need is a last chance,not a topic block.Rolandi+ (talk) 15:36, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

But you already said that, haven't you? And as soon as you thought no one was looking, you went and racked up 3 reverts over at Albanians in the blink of an eye. Why should anyone believe you at this point? Athenean (talk) 23:35, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

To Athenean,firstly,I knew that someone was looking me at Albanians.I know how Misplaced Pages works.

Secondly,when talking about my recent constructive contributions,I am talking about my construcive contributions after the Albanian case.Also we found concensus at Albanians.Also note that after the Albanian case I read the Misplaced Pages's rules carefully and now I know what is edit warring and why we need to use the talk page to make constructive contributions.

Thirdly ,I can say to the administrators.:The best thing isn't my block topic,but to give me my last chance.I have made many contructive contributions the recent days in both balkans related and non related articles .If I will do any other edit warring or any other bad thing like that,just ban me forever.

I read the Misplaced Pages's rules recently (carefully) and I will not make bad things anymore.I think I don't need to learn anymore,if I continue making edit warring or anything else,just ban me forever.

Also note that I have made many contributions that aren't related with Balkans articles,so I don't need time to learn or to demonstrate my competence (I have read Wikipedi's rules recently and I have done many contructive editings the recent days in both balkans related and non related articles ).I am using the talk page now ,as you can see in my recent history,I am not and will not make edit warring or anything else in the future.The only thing I need is a last chance,not a topic block.Rolandi+ (talk) 07:15, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

Athenean, don't go accusing Rolandi. I just checked and he has not done any edits very recently on the Albanians page. I am the last editor to have made a contribution and a significant one ]. Frankly Athenean you need to stop your behavior of accusations toward other editors. With me, you have questioned by cognitive faculties (very offensive), referred to Albanians as "irrelevant" in the Northern Epirus article (on the talk page) which is about a territory within the sovereign borders of Albania with a substantial Albanian population and you have referred to my proposed edits (all from peer reviewed western sources and importantly academics of Greek background) there in the talk page as "fit" for a "blog", not Misplaced Pages. You also said that you would not allow me to undertake any changes to articles, or by condescendingly referring to me as "its you" and "i thought it was you". These are but are few of your memorable comments after i have repeatedly stretched out a hand of good will to discuss and edit (like at the Talk:Greek Muslims or the Talk:Northern Epirus. Don't intimidate and or bully. Misplaced Pages is a democratic forum. Moreover I was not properly aware of this administrators board for incidents, but if you continue, and i say this to Alexikoua also who made up policy (a so called 10% threshold to try a prevent peer reviewed material going into the Souliots article, See: Talk:Souliotes) which is a no no in Misplaced Pages, i will lodge complaints against you both. Like i have said to you many times (by having to quote at length Misplaced Pages policy) Athenean stick to the content, not the person. Also, a FINAL warning to Rolandi will suffice with some short probationary period, but definitely no ban especially since those calling for it are less than innocent and their motives more than suspect (as i have outlined in the above posts). Resnjari (talk) 09:42, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

I can perfectly understand most non-Balkan editors, who do not see how a majority of Greek/Slavic editors try to impose their version of history in most Albanian-related articles. I also dreamed of a world (and encyclopedia) where nationality is not important. Yet, all of us involved with any Albanian-related topic know this is not real. We cannot pretend that this situation is simply a random group of Greek/Slavic editors with randomly same opinion on Greek/Serbian-Albanian relations, all randomly start attacking a randomly Albanian editor who randomly happen to disagree to randomly all of them in randomly all disputed articles under consideration. Sure, the whole story is a random coincidence and has nothing to do with nationalistic views on history. If you think there is no difference between the ideal world and the Balkan reality, then I think this incident is destined to be misjudged. OppositeGradient (talk) 13:21, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

Its why we need more outside oversight at times keep an eye on the editing process. There are those within Misplaced Pages who would object to material entering a article not its merit, but because it might go against a world view. For example the article Turco-Albanians was created by non-Albanian editors with southern Balkan heritage. It was created without any mention that the term has mostly pejorative connotations. Many editors who "contributed" and patrolled the article were against additions to that article or concerns of Albanian editors. Now because Albanian editors had either no access or were unaware of sources to make sure the article had no racism, those who patrolled (have a look at the page history bit of the article: Turco-Albanians: Revision history https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Turco-Albanians&action=history ) made things very difficult to get change there. Now i have made the changes there but it was not without its issues. Its because of this article that at first i was really annoyed, (its like having the article on the "n" word saying that its a friendly ethnographic term used by white people for African Americans) and overacted as Misplaced Pages says it does not promote racism. There also was a lot of POV on the Cham Albanians page (such as the unsubstantiated claim of Chams being involved in the deportation of Ioannina's Jews. It had a citation tag on there for more than two years). I found the source from where that had been copied and pasted. A Karl Savich article on the website Serbianna, a problematic website for one and two all the sources he had cited not one mentioned anything about it, and i checked them all !). Change was only done after a exhaustive process and accusations of POV. All my edits based on peer previewed material went through, but one for "original research" reasons. Currently i am in the process of editing the Northern Epirus article. As it stands now i have identified numerous issues of POV pushing and unsubstantiated claims made in there (as outlined in the talk page :) and it reads more like a propaganda piece for the Greek Northern Epirote lobby than a encyclopedia article showing neutrality and balance. I have not even added my edits (based on peer reviewed material with inline citations and also mainly from Greek academics !) and into the article first, but on the talk page and invited editors to make comments on the content. So far, Athenean has come out with, no, no, no (to paraphrase his comments) and i have not even done the Misplaced Pages:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle because i want everyone's constructive input, while Alexikoua had to be convinced that a article about a geographical place in Albania that has substantial numbers of Albanians which the literature on Northern Epirus states had to be included (see: Talk:Northern Epirus). It was not without its issues as at first, as i was again accused of POV pushing, then some edits i have made using peer reviewed material on other pages (about for example the remaining Albanian speaking presence in the Epirus article) and agreed to by those editors where in a way explained to me that they could be deleted if i persisted with these changes and only after exhaustively citing Misplaced Pages policy was a somewhat "normal" discussion started with Athenean's comments once in a while of no, no, no. But never a why, why, why, when asked. I urge non-Balkan oversight and outside intervention during the editing process of that article and to make sure that the discussion is had primarily on the content and that no intimidation occurs. I urge this of the administrators and others too of a non-Balkan background as there are also few Albanian editors and a fake consensus could also occur to block certain peer reviewed material relevant to the article going in.Resnjari (talk) 14:19, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

OppositeGradient, your passionate arguments in favour of a Slavo-Greek conspiracy would be much more believable (aside from the fact that one would have to completely ignore that Greek and Slavic nationalism don't make good bedfellows) if the case were actually precipitated by some anti-Albanian cabal ganging up on a poor blameless Albanian user, and not by the latter behaving in a typical tendentious manner that we all are sadly too familiar with. This thread was not started by Greeks nor Slavs, and complaining about cabals and secret agendas is always the last refuge of someone with no case and no arguments. The problem is Rolandi's behaviour and disruptive pattern of editing, which has caused this whole bruhaha. Of course other Balkan users will get involved, because Rolandi edits in Balkan-related articles, and pushing a particular POV he is bound to get in conflict not with German, Chinese, or American users, but with Greeks, Serbs, etc. i.e. with people who care about these articles. If his edits were more thought-out, if he provided decent sources, if he respected the WP:BRD rule, then we wouldn't be having this discussion. Resnjari, I have seen you being engaged in page-long content disputes with Alexikoua and Athenean, but you are not reported at ANI. Why? Because you do not behave in a hot-headed manner, and argue on the basis of sources. I too would like to see more Albanian editors active at WP, but not if that means that we have to tolerate nationalistic hogwash POVs and edit-wars. Complaining about ethnic-based profiling and then arguing that a user should be cut more slack than usual because there are too few of his nationality around is a weird line of argument. I am willing to allow a period for Rolandi to shape up and matters to calm down, but with the provisional topic ban. Why? Because I've been here long enough to know that if he is WP:HERE to do serious work, then he will persist through this period and come out better from it. Without the ban, we'll in all likelihood be here again a month from now. Constantine ✍ 17:26, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

You said:"Without the ban, we'll in all likelihood be here again a month from now."Why are you so sure ?

I can say to the administrators:The best thing isn't my block topic,but to give me my last chance.I have made many contructive contributions the recent days in both balkans related and non related articles .If I will do any other edit warring or any other bad thing like that,just ban me forever. I read the Misplaced Pages's rules recently (carefully) and I will not make bad things anymore.I think I don't need to learn anymore,if I continue making edit warring or anything else,just ban me forever. Also note that I have made many contributions that aren't related with Balkans articles,so I don't need time to learn or to demonstrate my competence (I have read Misplaced Pages's rules recently and I have done many contructive editings the recent days in both balkans related and non related articles ).I am using the talk page now ,as you can see in my recent history,I am not and will not make edit warring or anything else in the future.The only thing I need is a last chance,not a topic block.Rolandi+ (talk) 20:39, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

Constantine, the issue with Rolandi is no one here attempted to calm him down by properly showing the error of his ways that went beyond policy. I engaged with him in a manner, which lets be frank about it, has now stabilized the situation and he has but all ceased his previous activity. That is what dispute resolution is all about, while others kept fanning the flames. For example he deleted a comment of mine. So, i then placed another comment and explained what he was doing was out of whack regarding the material. I didn't go all paternalistic with him. He is an equal. No one is above or below and i stand by that. In general Rolandi will have to do much reading before editing some Balkan topics (like i said to him he should subscribe to the Francis and Taylor database, many good humanities journal articles there if he has no access to university stuff). He is in need of a last warning, that i agree, but no ban. I still think that a ban is not the way to go, due in part to some editors own behavior as i have pointed out. Athenean, has all but refused to engage with peer reviewed material that i put up as proposals, (not even in the article itself, but the talk page and has been disruptive when a consensus has been reached with an editor on the matter !) I have repeatedly urged him to engage in the discussion in good faith.) and has been very dismissive also (apart from his colourful commentary that has nothing to do with the article). Alexikoua also at one point made up policy (which is a Misplaced Pages no no) to try and prevent a peer reviewed source going into the Souliotes article which he as a editor with privileges should know better and so on (Will Alexikoua get a warning for doing that? I wonder). POVs occur when the material is in question. Why do i get repeated accusations and dismissiveness? Its not always Albanian editors engaged in POV pushing or edit wars. It also comes from the other side. I have given examples already to that effect, especially with regard to Athenean. To date all my sources have been of the highest quality (all peer reviewed) and so have my edits (yes at times the wording needs refinement, that's why in good faith i have asked for engagement and input in the talk page, not POV accusations which i still get), yet i still have to deal with these shenanigans. If Rolandi gets a (topic) ban than these others should too as they have intimidated people and violated Misplaced Pages policy. If Rolandi stuffs up again and we are all in here in a month as you say, then a ban is what he will get. But for now no. A definite, clear and final warning will do.Resnjari (talk) 21:03, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

Diff of Rolandi+ removing warnings and discussions regarding his behaviour. The removal of a warning is taken as evidence that the warning has been read by the user. I do not see If Rolandi gets a (topic) ban than these others should too as realistic.--Zoupan 00:53, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes he has been warned. As i am not aware previously as to who could give out such warnings (i thought it was only the administrators who could), Rolandi got caught out, while these other editors have been getting away with such behavior. All should get a warning and be reminded that they solely stick to examining the material and editing and not focus on the person. The others are in need of a warning by the administrators also. One cannot defend Alexikoua's making up policy regarding that "a 10% threshold" was need so a peer reviewed source could go into an article. Or in another article that if certain peer reviewed edits are sought for there, that other previously peer reviewed material (agreed to also by Alexikoua) would be subject to deletion. Zoupan how is that defensible, especially since Alexikoua has many privileges that other editors don't ? I have also outlined Athenean's behavior which is consistent and has bordered on and been sometimes outright offensive. No ban, only a final warning for Rolandi. If Rolandi gets a topic ban or whatever the others too + warnings. Administrators need to take these serious issues that i have outlined into account. Misplaced Pages is a place meant to be one free of intimidation or bullying and that goes for all. Stick to the policy and peer reviewed material ! Resnjari (talk) 07:14, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

I am saying this again ( all editors can go to verify my recent constructive contribution).

I can say to the administrators:The best thing isn't my block topic,but to give me my last chance.I have made many contructive contributions the recent days in both balkans related and non related articles .If I will do any other edit warring or any other bad thing like that,just ban me forever. I read the Misplaced Pages's rules recently (carefully) and I will not make bad things anymore.I think I don't need to learn anymore,if I continue making edit warring or anything else,just ban me forever. Also note that I have made many contributions that aren't related with Balkans articles,so I don't need time to learn or to demonstrate my competence (I have read Misplaced Pages's rules recently and I have done many contructive editings the recent days in both balkans related and non related articles ).I am using the talk page now ,as you can see in my recent history,I am not and will not make edit warring or anything else in the future.The only thing I need is a last chance,not a topic block.Rolandi+ (talk) 08:07, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

• Comment The discussion has been going on for almost ten days, and it takes up half of the entire ANI-board. One way or another it should be closed.Jeppiz (talk) 22:18, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

He is still not ready.--Zoupan 16:41, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Really Zoupan?Why don't you go to the talk page and see?In addition,I have been busy today,but in the coming days I will give new arguments to you.In fact ,if someone calls Losha an Albanian tribe,it means they are Albanians.I don't delete your references Zoupan,but strangely you delete all my references.You don't give any explanation.However,don't worry,maybe the next ANI will be for your latest edits and your lack of neutrality,especially when talking about Albanian-related articles.

Why don't you go and see how you delete my edits and reference without saying sth?Why?

In fact,you don't have any moral right to talk against me for the only reason that I have accused you in the past for several things and many other editors know that fact.Also we have had many conflicts in the past and now you came here as you don't like my edits.Why don't you go and explain me when deleting my work in the future,as I am sure you will delete my work and references in the future!

Also,after I added the version that says he was Albanian,I deleted the part that said "Albanian historians consider him Albanian" because then it was irrelevant (after saying that he was Albanian).I explained this ,but you don't mention this fact.Why?In fact,it's not the first time that you delete references that say that a notable person born/living in Albania is Albanian,only saying that it is a demonym.Why?Because you don't know what the neutrality is.

Also this user deleted my referenced edits here without any clear explanation.Why?Because it says that Malakas might have been an Albanian tribe.

Also he deleted my edits here without any explanation.Why?Because it gave the birth name of St.Angelina,which is an Albanian name. Rolandi+ (talk) 19:14, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

In all seriousness, even if we were to dismiss doubts as to Rolandi+'s good faith, the user lacks WP:COMPETENCE. This thread is going to be archived while s/he is making messes of articles. Any English language text that is grammatically correct is being recognised almost immediately as being WP:COPYVIO... and that's only including articles that are being watched. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:04, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

In fact I am working with it.Also,how can you Irina Harpy talk about WP:COMPETENCE,when you modified the source at Vlachs and then sent me a warning?I said you that I would report you and then you came here and voted pro my block!In fact, I found it difficult to adjust with Misplaced Pages's rules,but now I am in the right way.Also,I would like to thank T*U who adviced me about some easily adjustable problems!

I am saying this again ( all editors can go to verify my recent constructive contribution).

I can say to the administrators:The best thing isn't my block topic,but to give me my last chance.I have made many contructive contributions the recent days in both balkans related and non related articles .If I will do any other edit warring or any other bad thing like that,just ban me forever. I read the Misplaced Pages's rules recently (carefully) and I will not make bad things anymore.I think I don't need to learn anymore,if I continue making edit warring or anything else,just ban me forever. Also note that I have made many contributions that aren't related with Balkans articles,so I don't need time to learn or to demonstrate my competence (I have read Misplaced Pages's rules recently and I have done many contructive editings the recent days in both balkans related and non related articles ).I am using the talk page now ,as you can see in my recent history,I am not and will not make edit warring or anything else in the future.The only thing I need is a last chance,not a topic block.Rolandi+ (talk) 07:43, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

Just to make this clear, Rolandi+: you're stating that you're ok with being banned if you ever edit war again on any article? Jeppiz (talk) 21:19, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

Jeppiz,I have been involved in edit warring in the past,but I have realised that edit warring isn't the best solution.In fact,it's not a solution.As I said,ban me if I edit war again.Rolandi+ (talk) 10:29, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

Ok, perhaps the closing admin (if there ever is one) can take this into account and note that any edit warring by Rolandi+ in the future will leave to a permanent and immediate ban. Jeppiz (talk) 09:44, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

You stated "give me my last chance" earlier, but obviously do not understand the opportunity you are given here, having in the meantime continued unconstructive editing and still trying to blame others for your own mistakes.--Zoupan 08:02, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

Really Zoupan?Everyone can see that I am in the right way finally.Also, you need to have an explanation before deleting other's referenced work in the future.Rolandi+ (talk) 08:49, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

Rolandi, your Malakasi reference is ok. you need to read up on doing Misplaced Pages citations though. John Fines book (1994) does come after Hammond's and Ducellier's and they are not the only medaevil expert's regarding the Balkans. Fine does refer to the Malakasi as Albanians. Various Western scholars have different views on the Malakasi's ethnic heritage so all should be covered. As for the Angelina Arianti matter, though yes she is Albanian, her Albanian name is covered in the footnote. She is a eminent figure for the Serbs and not Albanians in general, so having the name in the lead is not needed. Zoupan, Roland's edits are improving and were done in good faith. The sources he used were good this time. All i can say to Rolandi though is to look at the citation manual on wikipedia. Though the relevant information is covered, they can be done a bit better (no pg instead p and pp for page/s etc). Resnjari (talk) 18:17, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

Hammond clearly explains in several pages that the "Albanian" migrations into Greece in the 14th century included Albanians and Vlachs (They were called "Albanians" by Cantacuzenus, because they had come in a geographical sense from the area which he called "Albania"). He is cherrypicking one word and, deliberately or not, refuses to understand context, despite several replies which explain this. Removal of "Vlachs" at Spata family (comment: pg.59 says albanians overran...... without mentioning vlachs), he thus insists that only the sentence in p. 59 should be taken literally, which actually is Hammond's transcription of Cantacuzenus (In 1358 the Albanians overran Epirus, Acarnania and Aetolia, and ...); comment at Malakasi "Yes,now you are claiming that I am doing cherry-picking.In fact no.It will be added as it is what the reference says.". The user has now spread one matter over three article talk pages, saying that "it will be" as he wants. This comment speaks for itself.--Zoupan 16:43, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

Firstly, Zoupan don't call me "ignorant" anymore.Secondly,why don't you mention the fact that you continue deleting my edits without any clear explanation? In fact,I don't have said "it will be" as I want.We have talked at the talk page!As I said,the fact that Cantacuzenus called Vlachs "Albanians" doesn't mean that all Albanians in Epirus are or may be Vlachs as you claim.Hammond says that "In 1358 the Albanians overran Epirus, Acarnania and Aetolia, and established two principalities under their leaders, John Spatas (shpate in Albanian meaning a sword) and Peter Leosas (/fos in Albanian meaning a pockmark)".Why doesn't he says "Albanians and Vlachs"?When Hammond cites Cantacuzenis about Vlachs,he clearly says "Vlachs" and not "Albanians".You are saying that saying "Vlach" (Hammond's transcription of Cantacuzenus) Hammond means Vlachs,while saying "Albanian" he means Albanians and Vlachs together.Interesting!Rolandi+ (talk) 17:26, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

I seriously have no interest in explaining basics to this user again and again. He simply doesn't grasp English to the needed extent for understanding scholarly material and context, and my very clear explanations.--Zoupan 17:38, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

The fact that we don't have the same idea doesn't mean that I don't grasp English.In fact,if someone takes a look at Zoupan's history,realises that this is what he says to the majority of editors.Zoupan thinks that he is the only one who grasps English.Rolandi+ (talk) 17:54, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Don't be silly.--Zoupan 18:08, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

To all please refrain from name calling or questioning a person's cognitive faculties. As for the Vlach/Albanian matter regarding the Malakasi, Hammond is one medieval expert and he wrote his book in 1967. John Fine, another medieval expert who refers to the Malakasi as Albanians wrote his book in the 1980s/early 1990s. Both views should be in the article as the issue of the Malakasi origins are not agreed to even by eminent medieval experts in the Western world. Wikiepdia policy on neutrality states that all scholarly views should be covered, especially when credible academics themselves are at odds with each other.Resnjari (talk) 23:25, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

This is a thread about an editor that has proven himself to be problematic, and it surely should include questioning about qualities. You have not read Talk:Malakasi, nor what these experts (and their respective expertise) actually say. You have presented no proof there of any "at odds".--Zoupan 01:26, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Zoupan,my problematic past doesn't mean that Misplaced Pages will be a non-neutral place.Also,if you have sth against my arguments,use the aricle's talk page,not ANI.Rolandi+ (talk) 17:26, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Past? What about this and this? The ANI thread's subject is your behaviour.--Zoupan 18:09, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

If you have sth against my arguments,use the aricle's talk page,not ANI.Those edits are based on well-known facts and everyone can find thousands of references that support my edits.If someone doesn't agree with my edits I use the talk page now,while you continue deleting others' work without any explanation.Rolandi+ (talk) 18:25, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

The first edit is ok. The Koprulu’s were of Albanian origin and that has been attested in peer reviewed literature. And the town of Veles did bear their family name for many centuries. The second will need more explanation and defiantly an inline citation (you need to provide this Rolandi, due to the nature of the topic), due to medieval matters having contested viewpoints even among Western medieval academics. It’s all very simple to resolve.Resnjari (talk) 21:37, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Competence and civility issues with Koala15

• Koala15 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

My latest encounter with Koala15 was on the Ted 2 page, where I fixed a fairly simple grammatical error and was blankly reverted on sight . I reverted back with the summary "Unexplained" and he kept edit warring with the summary "Go home, your drunk" . This happened again, until General Ization issued an EW warning on my talk page, and a civility warning on Koala15's page. Koala15 repeatedly refused to apologize or even acknowledge that he was edit warring, dismissing General Ization with sentences such as "Have a sense of humor" and "There is no need for you to get so worked up over this", assuring him that he matter had been resolved, when in fact, it was not - and still is not. I explained very clearly on my talk page why I performed said edit, which prompted Koala15 to respond with a guideline that directly contradicts his edit - which I also explained. However, he refuses to "get it", while writing replies on the grammar level of a twelve year old - which I extensively tried to explain within the same discussion, examples being seeing him "use patently incorrect expressions like "more clearer", open a sentence with "hence", miss punctuation, or consistently not capitalize "I" as in first person", not to mention his first reply to me via edit summary: "Go home, your drunk".

A quick look on Koala15's talk page will reveal that he has been taunting other editors for a while, in an abrasive and unapologetic manner. A few select examples: User talk:Koala15#Reversions... , User talk:Koala15#July 2015 , User talk:Koala15#No , User talk:Koala15#Redirecting . Another example of insisting on edit warring and being rude is here. I would like to finish this nuisance on the Ted 2 page and move on, but I would like to ensure that he doesn't spite revert me again. Please take care of this matter. Misplaced Pages isn't supposed to be about this at all. Thank you very much. EauZenCashHaveIt (I'm All Ears) 20:38, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Well i tried to work with you, but you don't seem to wanna work with me. Most of the things you are linking from my talk page are simple misunderstandings. And i don't think you can report anyone for a 'lack of competence". Koala15 (talk) 21:19, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

How ironic... you have just given another dismissive and offensive reply. You are either not realizing it or deliberately insulting me, and neither case is welcome on Misplaced Pages. EauZenCashHaveIt (I'm All Ears) 21:24, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

I have had my own run-ins with Koala15, which can be seen at Talk:Penguins of Madagascar and Penguins of Madagascar. Koala15 had initially participated in WP:OWNBEHAVIOR over a copyedit tag about the article with a reason saying "And i do think an IP's suggestion is less valid, cause the majority of them are vandals.". Not all IPs are vandals. Some contribute with no issues at all. I find that comment uncivil and rather a POV statement. They persistently removed the tag until they reached 3 reverts. They stayed quiet on the article, but they removed it again but this time with reasons but not valid ones. There was still WP:Consensus going on in the talk page, which Koala15 dismissed. Instead of participating in WP:Discussion and ask for opinions, they removed the template again. I reverted them, stating that they weren't the user who added the template and to remove it from a user who disagreed with it in the beginning is very questionable. They started edit warring, making 5 reverts within a span of 12 hours, I believe. If they reached the 6th revert, I was going to report them. My warnings can be seen on the user's talk page and PfM's talk page. In terms of Koala15, I do think they make good edits and they help the community, but my only concern is the way they act. Upon disagreements they edit war and so on, it seems. I do agree that saying a user is drunk is uncivil as much as saying to a user they need help. It seems they have had run-ins with other people, excluding me, EauZenCashHaveIt and General Ization. I would suggest a warning about continuing disruptive editing but I'm not sure. Callmemirela (Talk) ♑ 21:34, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Well i apologize, i shouldn't have removed those maintenance templates without asking. And i don't think its fair to say i participated in WP:OWNBEHAVIOR. Koala15 (talk) 21:40, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Per one of the bullets, "An editor reverts a change simply because the editor finds it "unnecessary" without claiming that the change is detrimental." You removed the template with this reasoning: "Uhm, yeah no." which certainly counts as you saying it's unnecessary without valid reasons and follows on of the statements "I can see nothing wrong with the article and there is no need to change anything at all." which you've given the impression (not even at this point) since the beginning and on the talk page. Callmemirela (Talk) ♑ 22:10, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

• Note for reviewing admins: here's the last "clean" version of Koala15's talk page, before he panicked and blanked it in order to invalidate the links I brought up earlier: . EauZenCashHaveIt (I'm All Ears) 21:57, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

To be fair, it was time they cleaned their talk page (no offense, Koala15). It was so long, over 200 posts. They kept some stuff, so I don't think it would really matter since it's their talk page. Callmemirela (Talk) ♑ 22:10, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

The timing though... anyway, I've said too much already. EauZenCashHaveIt (I'm All Ears) 22:18, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

• First, 200 posts going all the way back to 2012 probably needs archiving (and no, archiving isn't just blanking all the warnings) but that's not the issue here. Second, Misplaced Pages:Competence is required which includes social competency. Koala15's edits are problematic. Insulting and being uncivil is a concern. Individuals who cannot corroborate effectively have been shown the door before. I'd say there's civility here but I'll let some others chime on what they think should be done. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:50, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
• Having had run-ins with Koala15 before, some of which have been referenced in this post, I thought I'd also chime in. While their edits themselves are not disruptive or problematic, aside from a lack of edit summary usage, Koala15's conduct towards other users is condescending, patronizing and downright rude in some cases. On multiple occasions I have been told by the user that I don't understand Misplaced Pages, ("You don't understand the guidelines") and that I'm a newbie who interprets policies wrong ("I understand that you are new here, but you seem to lack a simple understanding of the rules of Misplaced Pages."), which if anyone else has been on the receiving end of, would know that it's incredibly frustrating. Initially I thought I was the only one to be scolded as deluded by Koala15, but apparently I'm not the only one. A quick CNTRL+F searching for the word "understand" on an old revision of their talk page shows three distinct immediate instances where Koala15 downplayed other editors, brushing them off as not understanding some aspect of the project: I'm not even gonna bother responding to this nonsense, cause you clearly don't even have a basic understanding of Misplaced Pages., "Once again you show that you don't understand the guidelines." and "It sounds like you don't understand Misplaced Pages." and "You are possibly the most clueless editor i have ever met.". While Koala15's talk page only showed a few instances of their incivility, I imagine I wasn't the first to be insulted on their talk page or via edit summaries. A block doesn't seem appropriate to me, and would quite possibly chase Koala15 away, given how bitter and angry they already come off with a near-clean block log, but an assurance from the user that the'll try and be more civil and get off their high horse would be nice. Azealia911 _talk 10:36, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Koala15 care to respond? Azealia911 _talk 10:13, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Well its easy to take my quotes out of context and try to me make me look bad, but in the context of the conversation they were more or less facts. Either way you seem like a good editor, it just took you a while to fully understand the guidelines. Which is fine, it took me a while when i first joined Misplaced Pages. Koala15 (talk) 15:03, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Oh Koala15, you really are being serious aren't you? You're not even trolling, sigh. I guess that means no chance of an apology for being rude and condescending? (the latter of which is ironically displayed in your most recent reply). Azealia911 _talk 17:21, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Well its definitely not my intention to be "rude and condescending" that's just how I talk. I think its really a matter of how you choose to interpret my words. In the future, i will try to be more thoughtful with my reply's since it bothers everyone so much. Now hopefully we can put this whole thing behind us and move on. Koala15 (talk) 18:12, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

No, we can't... at least not while you maintain these dismissive and unapologetic replies. Each and every one of those reinforces the incompetence claim. You've been told the same thing by everyone here: apologize, show genuine regret, and we will move on. Your telling everyone to move on while sarcastically dismissing every concern raised on this page is nothing short of offensive. Notice that it's you who keeps brushing off every opportunity to make things right. EauZenCashHaveIt (I'm All Ears) 23:54, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

I second EauZenCashHaveIt's comments, completely accurate. Koala15, your replies just demonstrate what everyone here is trying to tell you, you just seem to not be hearing us, replying with the behavior and tone that landed you here. Back handed comments like "Either way you seem like a good editor, it just took you a while to fully understand the guidelines" don't do anything but frustrate me, and "I think its really a matter of how you choose to interpret my words" is absurd, so it's our fault for getting offended at what you say? "i will try to be more thoughtful with my reply's since it bothers everyone so much" you say, acting as if we're burdening you with actually being...nice?! Maybe take responsibility for your actions, genuinely apologize (which you have yet to do) and maybe then we can move on. Azealia911 _talk 18:48, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

I thought i did apologize. But yes i apologize if i offended anyone, that was definitely not my intention. Hopefully we can move on now. Koala15 (talk) 18:55, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for apologising Koala15, yep, that's all I needed, take care. Azealia911 _talk 19:06, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

jeez a bit hypocritical to talk about incivility when you're saying he has the grammar of a 12 year old. and why would you care about grammar on the internet anyway? poli 19:00, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

I was wondering when the usual devil's advocate would make their appearance. This is an encyclopedia, grammar is a basic requirement here. And most importantly: while Azealia may or may not have gotten their apology, the general issue is still unresolved. EauZenCashHaveIt (I'm All Ears) 19:50, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

obsessing over grammar is so pretentious. i promise you're not smarter than anyone else here so chill. poli 22:34, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

Would you like your name to be added to the report? EauZenCashHaveIt (I'm All Ears) 00:32, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

that's so petty. smh poli 02:22, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

• EauZenCashHaveIt, what exactly are you looking to happen? Koala15 has apologized and said that they will be more thoughtful with their conduct. I say leave it, we've given them the rope, its their choice to hang themselves with more rudeness, land back here, and ultimately be blocked, or lasso their next edits with both hands (yes, that is literally the only analogy I could think of for positive things to do with rope). What else would you propose? Azealia911 _talk 19:14, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

@Azealia911: I am looking for a more permanent solution than an obviously insincere apology with no indication of any behavioral change. But hey, if there are no takers then I guess we both have better things to do than bark up that tree. If you are satisfied then I won't say anything, at least until something new happens. Sadly, I have a feeling I am not mistaken. EauZenCashHaveIt (I'm All Ears) 19:30, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

EauZenCashHaveIt I can also see us returning here, but that's up to Koala15. If required, bring it back here and I'll be the first to recommend implications. Azealia911 _talk 16:31, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

• To me, Koala15's contribution to this new discussion on their Talk page suggests that Koala15 has learned nothing from this process. Still arbitrarily removing maintenance templates from articles without participating in the discussions they reference, a behavior just recently discussed with them here. General Ization 18:34, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Christ, didn't take them long, I really did think they'd be more considerate. General Ization what do you suggest doing? Azealia911 _talk 18:51, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

I really don't know. I know I spent more time than I could really afford to trying to explain to them why this is a problem on their Talk page and here, and what mostly comes back is from the editor is I didn't hear that. I really think it's a competence issue. General Ization 18:57, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Definitely seems like the case, considering their edits aren't specific to one or one set of pages, perhaps a short term block would be appropriate. Azealia911 _talk 19:15, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes, i make mistakes like everyone else, Jeez, i didn't realize my every edit would be under a microscope. Its also strange that you have my talk page watchlisted. Koala15 (talk) 21:25, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Everyone whose edits cause them to be brought to this page will find their subsequent edits to be "under a microscope" for some period of time, especially while the case is unresolved. Most at least make an effort to not engage in the same behaviors during that time. And it's not strange at all – your Talk page was placed on my watch list when you and I discussed the matter above. General Ization 21:29, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

It was my bad, i didn't know what the statute of limitations was on page a split discussion that had no responses. I realized it was a mistake after i did it. I will refrain from making edits like that in the future. I go on Misplaced Pages for fun, and i'm not here to start trouble or anything like that. I'm gonna try to stay out of things like this and mind my own business. Koala15 (talk) 21:42, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Since the template was just placed this month (and says so within the template as any reader sees it), you might reasonably have assumed it had not expired; if you were unsure, you could click the Discuss link and ask. Your "No need for a discussion" comment linked above shows either a lack of understanding or contempt for editing processes here, not confusion over an expiration date. General Ization 21:58, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Since Koala15 has decided to play possum, I am asking the patrolling admins to make the appropriate decision here. This discussion cannot simply vanish as stale. EauZenCashHaveIt (I'm All Ears) 20:38, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

I'm definitely seeing Koala15's edits as problematic after going through the diffs. No specific action has been proposed yet, but there may be some lingering hope Koala can improve. My first thought was to just close this with the closer stating that if this kind of issue happens again, that would expedite a block by linking back to that decision. A short term block could be used instead of essentially a warning, but both would take a WP:ROPE approach. Kingofaces43 (talk) 03:16, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Kingofaces43 EauZenCashHaveIt, I'd be more lenient to go with a short-block, maybe as short as two weeks. Earlier on this post, I urged nothing to happen, giving Koala15 the rope, and within two days they were removing merger notices and playing the old apologetic "I'll never do it again" card, when it had been discussed with them before. I'm not sure how many times Koala15 expects us to take their fake apologies before doing anything. The block may be the wake-up call they need to understand their attitude and actions won't be at all tolerated. Azealia911 _talk 17:28, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Agree with Azealia911. In fairness, Koala15 has in fact seemed to "stay out of things like this and mind own business" (as they put it above) for the past week or so, but without a real understanding by Koala15 of why their (past) behavior is a problem, all it will take is one editor to object to/revert one of their edits (rightly or wrongly) and I expect we'll be right back here again. I haven't heard or seen anything here that makes me think that understanding exists as yet. General Ization 20:51, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Seems reasonable. EauZenCashHaveIt (I'm All Ears) 23:03, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

My experience with Koala15 at Penguins of Madagascar was similar to User:Tokyogirl79's in February. This wasn't a controversial topic or sensitive BLP. The article's about a movie that features talking commando penguins. After some edits to it I later added a tag regarding prose issues and a thousand-word quotefarm plus explained the tag on the Talk page. Koala reverts with a derisory summary. I restore days later due to the encyclopedic text and non-free content concerns and post on his talkpage: Koala responds dismissively and immediately undoes my edit as vandalism. Only after multiple other editors become involved does he finally visit the Talk page.

He engages in IDHT--continuing to say he doesn't see the problem ("as far as I know this is how the majority of reception sections are written") and asking for suggestions on to how to fix it--despite multiple editors having already provided them, edit-wars over the tag, plus adds quoteboxes making the quotefarm even more glaring. We assume good faith and spend time explaining. Only later to discover it's all happened before. –146.200.32.196 (talk) 14:38, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Proposed short-term block for Koala15

I'll repeat a comment I made above, earlier in this post, I urged nothing to happen to Koala15, giving them the "rope", and within two days they were removing merger notices and playing the old apologetic "I'll never do it again" card, when the same issue had been discussed with them before. I'm not sure how many times Koala15 expects us to take their fake apologies before doing anything. A block may be the wake-up call they need to understand their attitude and actions won't be at all tolerated. The amount of said block can be determined by whoever closes the post.

Pinging all past contributors who may not keep track of the post: EauZenCashHaveIt, General Ization, Callmemirela, Ricky81682, Kingofaces43, Politoed89, and most importantly Koala15.

• Support as proposer – recommending a 2-4 week block. Azealia911 _talk 01:23, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Striking my support, may sound odd considering I'm the proposer. I've decided to give Koala15 one last chance, their recent behavior has seemed less aggressive and more open to discussion. Weather that lasts is up to them, but I firmly believe they'll reduce their negativity on the site for the foreseeable future. But this isn't an oppose, I'm staying neutral, I think comments from both sides are equally valid. Azealia911 _talk 22:25, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

• Support per preceding thread. EauZenCashHaveIt (I'm All Ears) 01:28, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support per proposer's comments (thanks) and my comments above. General Ization 01:32, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
• Comment I don't see why you guys are so against giving me another chance to redeem myself. I admit I made a few mistakes, but I don't think we should overlook all of the good work I have done on here in the past few years. I genuinely promise to have a better attitude when communicating with other editors. I look forward to working with you all again in a positive way. Koala15 (talk) 02:44, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

No one's against your having, or denying you, a chance to redeem yourself. If we were, we would be proposing an indefinite block (which none of us think is appropriate at this time). You will hopefully redeem yourself in any case. But it's precisely because you're thinking of this matter as so trivial that a block is appropriate. Many editors who produce good edits but cannot collaborate constructively with other editors have been blocked before you and many will be blocked after you. Assuming our proposal is implemented, please spend at least some of the time actually reading the many Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines we have tried over several weeks to get you to consider carefully. General Ization 02:52, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

I don't see why a block is necessary, I'm not gonna learn anything that i already haven't. I am gonna make a change in my behavior on here from this day on. And if you catch me breaking any rules, than block me. Take me at my word on this one. Koala15 (talk) 03:02, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

To me, this attitude right here is the epitome of your problem. You don't get to tell us what is necessary and what is not necessary. You can ask, you can argue your case, or anything else that is genuinely collaborative. You are still trying to take the lead and dictate the outcome. This is why the block is proposed. Azealia911, General Ization and others - I am not sure how else I can put it. @Chillum: this should address your concern. Nothing has changed. Literally, nothing. EauZenCashHaveIt (I'm All Ears) 06:51, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

• Neutral. I have no preference on a short term block either way. It's clear that this editor will be back to editing in awhile even if they were blocked, so the the important thing for this conversation is to show that they are sitting on their last chance per WP:ROPE if the issue comes up again. Sometimes ANI closures aren't clear on this, so as long as that point gets across, I'm content with just closing this as such. A block will demonstrate that as much as a well-worded close (and may be warranted given the continued behavior that popped up, but I'm not digging further into this to evaluate that), so I'm fine either way. Kingofaces43 (talk) 03:07, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose The block would not be preventative at this point in my opinion. If anyone can explain how it would be preventative I will gladly reconsider. Chillum 03:13, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

My hope is that it will give the editor some (enforced) time, if they are so inclined, to actually learn how to be a better and more collaborative editor, rather than just editing in a vacuum. A "time out" if you will. We've been hearing a lot of I didn't hear that from Koala15, and my personal opinion is that it's because they won't stop editing long enough to actually read policies and guidelines and learn how to and why they should avoid this kind of issue. If they were not so inclined, then indeed all it would do is give them a reason to remember that incivility and disruptive editing have consequences. General Ization 03:23, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose per Chillum, it sounds more a punitive than a preventive block. Also, while Koala certainly had been sometimes rude, most of the differences above just document talk page discussions, but not the actual "incidents", or at least not the whole picture, so it is hard to judge who is really innocent here. Eg, it was linked at least three times (if I have not missed some other links) this talk page discussion as a proof of Koala's problematic behavior, yet it all started by an editor boldly redirecting a Koala's article a few hours after it had been created and then edit warring with Koala to have it redirected without any community discussion. The dispute eventually ended in an AfD, where the article was kept with no votes for deletion outside the nominator. The same with the Ted 2 incident, where the opener of this ANI discussion just showed some incompetence (he, not Koala), first battling to add a bizarre and non-standard "Elsewhere in the United States" in the infobox-date of release , then, after being explained why he was wrong, still trying to remove the premiere date with a poor rationale . Rudeness is not excusable, and Koala should be more collaborative and use the edit summaries to immediately explain his actions and not to attack other editors, but the context is important, and so far the "incidents" do not rise to a level requiring a block IMO. Cavarrone 07:56, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment: it's a shame that the devil's advocate sometimes wears an admin's hat. In their opposing statement, Cavarrone seems to have turned the wheel around and accused me, Koala15's victim, of incompetence, having completely ignored a discussion which I cited earlier. There is a considerable difference between sheer unprovoked rudeness and a stern reaction to sheer unprovoked rudeness, but apparently, to them the two are one and the same. This doesn't look very neutral to me, but I will be more than happy to be proven wrong. EauZenCashHaveIt (I'm All Ears) 23:33, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
• Neutral, as stated in my intial comment above. Whilst I do believe Koala15 has good editing-related intentions, discussion-wise is a mess. I do believe that they are aware of the issue of civility and so on. They are being watched and if any further comments that are deemed uncivil, inappropriate, and so on, they will be reported once more and consequently blocked as they were given chances. And I will take their above comment "If I break the rules, block me." (not exact) seriously. I expect them to learn their mistakes and choose their words carefully instead of being rude and uncalled for. I choose to believe they will stop edit warring and stop engaging in OWNBEHAVIOR and start discussing in good matters. And that their competence here will improve. The way they type and what they say are supporting that issue. Thank you for the ping, Eau (I really don't know your username that easily) Callmemirela {Talk} ♑ 20:50, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

arbitrary section break

Hi, I'm the editor who User:Callmemirela indirectly referred to above. I want to put this one to bed so we can all move on, too. Having looked into this a bit more, however, there're some additional aspects that should be taken into consideration. Unfortunately, it'll take me just a little while longer to put the details into a neat orderly manner, dot the i's and cross the t's so to speak, ready to post here. I'm pretty sure I can do so within 24hrs. –146.200.32.196 (talk) 02:55, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

While we wait, or to help us/admins decide whether we should, it would be helpful to understand your relationship to the case (since you are currently an IP with only this edit in your history). Are you the editor who formerly used IP 146.198.28.207 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) and 146.199.67.6 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) (see contribs)? General Ization 03:13, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes. (Powercut last night.) Incidentally, thank you for your application of meatball:DefendEachOther at the talkpage. Looking into this took a while (complexity and depth of the edit history among other factors) and, as we can see, a poll began in the meantime. It's preferable that reports here don't stay open for extended periods, so I can understand why EauZenC initiated it. 146.200.32.196 (talk) 03:53, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

@146.200.32.196: Did you plan to provide us with some additional insight concerning this matter, as your post above suggested? If so, please do so quickly or if not, please let us know, so that either way we can move this case toward closure. It's unfair both to the subject editor and the rest of us watching this section to leave it in limbo any longer. General Ization 16:55, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

I apologise to the community. In hindsight my 24hrs estimate was over optimistic. I misjudged the time needed wrt the large quantity of edits. Fortunately, having worked through the night, twice, things moved right along. I do intend to provide some additional material facts asap, so we can wrap this up. I'll come back here later today. Thanks. 146.200.32.196 (talk) 09:28, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Seemingly the IP's 72 hour estimate was also unrealistic. Move for closure, as at this point I can't imagine what revelations they could bring to the discussion that would make it worth our waiting any longer. General Ization 18:29, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

I see now that the IP has added to the open discussion above today, though they do not offer a closing recommendation. So I again move for closure, but now because it appears all who have an interest in commenting on this matter have done so. General Ization 20:14, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Hounding by GregJackP

GregJackP (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

• Bowman v. Monsanto Co. (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Emerald ash borer (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Background

I've had relatively little interaction with GregJackP until about the last month. I recently made an edit at an article which GregJackP reverted. I generally edit agricultural topics and have been watching the article for awhile now. Prior to this, I only had two previous interactions with this editor here, and here while I stayed out of the content dispute at this same page because of the incivility I saw towards another editor in a past content dispute. This current discussion originally should have been a straightforward mundane content discussion (should a picture be included or not). Instead, the issues with GregJackP's behavior can be mainly seen at the relatively short talk page discussion https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Bowman_v._Monsanto_Co.#Picture_of_justice. I started off very civil (and throughout the conversation) asking why GregJackP thought the image should remain. Instead, I was met with refusal to engage in basic dialogue about the content (what purpose is the picture serving?), immediately calling my edit harassment in the edit summary, and some strange ownership behavior all summarized pretty well in this diff. Trying to ask for at least some dialogue just resulted in a dismissive, "Get consensus if you want it removed."

Hounding and vandalism

So, we've got some really prickly and uncivil behavior from GregJackP, but what they said and did next is what brings me here because of purposeful disruption: "When it is someone that hasn't edited bug articles, but starts a dispute over the three photos of the same bug? I'm not going to do that, because I'm not an asshole, but I'm not going to look favorably on answering BS questions about a photo. . ." Not much later, they followed me to a insect GA nominee I've been responding to suggested edits on and did exactly that.. GregJackP has never edited the page and it is not in their normal topic area at all. This coupled with their previous statement demonstrates obvious WP:HOUNDING. GregJackP's edits summaries in the first hounding diff and a repeat are very closely paraphrased from my own comments from attempted discussion for further pointiness. This also amounts to vandalism of a page and WP:POINTY behavior by trying to disrupt a page to prove a point.

Always being met with incivility by this user when I always approach them civilly coupled with blatant hounding seems to show their behavior isn't going to be better on its own. GregJackP was blocked by GorillaWarfare for continued harassment and personal attacks back in January (unblock appeal by Quadell). A temp block might be suitable until it's clear this won't continue to be a problem. However, I'm fine with someone just getting the point across to them that the behavior is not acceptable as long as the immediate incivility stops on pages where our interests overlap (apparently patents relating to agriculture) and pointy hounding stops on pages where they do not. I don't think an interaction ban should be necessary quite yet.

It would also be nice if someone undid the hounding edit on the emerald ash borer page since my removals are reverted each time. All this because I wanted to talk about if a picture of a judge was really needed. . . Kingofaces43 (talk) 09:29, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I should also stress that GregJackP claimed I was trying to derail the GA process at the Bowman v. Monsanto Co. article (I firmly rejected that attempt at bad faith ). Now after purposely following me to the emerald ash borer article, GregJackP has managed to partially cause the GA review to fail due to instability. . Action is needed from the community when disruptive editing to this degree is occurring as I've never seen anything this blatant before. Kingofaces43 (talk) 12:49, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: I protected emerald ash borer for 24 hours due to edit warring before realising that this issue had been brought here (and closed my good article review of the article). Any administrator has my permission to remove, extend or shorten this protection as appropriate. I have no opinion on the claims of hounding at this time. Josh Milburn (talk) 12:39, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

Yeah this doesn't look good. Kingofaces43 was bold and removed a pic on the Bowman article. GregJackP reverted and then discussion happened (and continues to happen). GregJackP went to the EAB article was bold and removed three pics (and started discussion). Kingofaces43 reverted and GregJackP reverted again. It doesn't look good when you head to another article you've never edited and initate conflict there with someone you are in conflict with elsewhere. 24.236.232.136 (talk) 14:45, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for summarizing that nicely. I don't think I'd describe GregJackP's edit on the ash borer page exactly as bold though as that insinuates a good-faith edit. The context here shows a more disruptive intent as vandalism, not to mention one of the edit summaries saying he removed a picture because he claims the picture was of an elm tree and not an ash. That's original research at best, but context from the Bowman article doesn't really show this as a best case scenario. WP:SNEAKY describes this vandalism best in addition to WP:POINTY.Kingofaces43 (talk) 16:37, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

It looks like your unwarranted removal of an image at the Bowman v. Monsanto Co. article precipitated this little kerfluffle. Further, it looks like you and Jytdog are both harassing GregJackP (and by extension another user named PraeceptorIP) on the article talk page for no reason other than because "Monsanto" is part of the article name. Because you and Jytdog seem to disrupt every article where the word "Monsanto" appears, have you considered voluntarily withdrawing from any and all Monsanto-related topics? Viriditas (talk) 21:08, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

Viriditas, Could you please provide some diffs showing us how they harrased GregJackP?— Preceding unsigned comment added by Happy Attack Dog (talk • contribs) 21:28, 24 July 2015‎

This has already been discussed here. Jytdog agreed to drop the stick and move on. However, Kingofaces43 showed up just less than a month later to start up the hounding again. Anyone can look at the stats and see what's going on here. The problem is not GregJackP. Viriditas (talk) 00:53, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

I think we're in Australia again... Erpert 03:38, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

How exactly is boomerang relevant to Viridtas' comment? It's very apparent they are blowing hot air here if one reads the actual diffs I provided. Are you suggesting a boomerang for Viriditas instead? It's not entirely clear. Kingofaces43 (talk) 03:54, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I was never involved in the ANI you just mentioned. I also wasn't involved in whatever dispute Jytdog and GregJackP were involved in, and only had a few notes of caution as things were pretty much wrapped up by the time I got back from vacation and was catching up . I know you are not fond of Jytdog, but this is not a soapbox for that as we had next to no interaction in this instance. Anyone who reads the diffs and links to conversations I provided should be able to see pretty clearly that I was being civil in response to some pretty poor behavior, and the various claims Viriditas has made so far are readily dismissed by reading the various links I originally provided. They actually document all of my interactions with GregJackP, which shows just how quickly they resorted to this behavior. Kingofaces43 (talk) 03:53, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

I am seeing roughly equal levels of unconstructive behavior from GregJackP, Jytdog, and Kingofaces43. It is evident that after the July 12/13 ANI Viriditas linked to above the stick was not totally dropped and that Kingofaces is now playing ball as well.

Kingofaces43, you are not "being pretty civil in response to some pretty poor behavior". That's what Viriditas and Erpert were suggesting. One can argue "But he's being worse!" back and forth a bunch, but the nature and extent on all three parties are similar.

I am simultaneously concerned about multiway multiparty novel synthesis and you and Jytdog apparently deciding to ignore an informal style standard for court cases despite being told repeatedly.

When you come to ANI with unclean hands they're going to get looked at. GregJackP, you clearly need to tone it down as well, but Jytdog and Kingofaces43, you have brought attention to yourselves here and it's not looking all that good. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 04:56, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

Georgewilliamherbert, you're right, I shouldn't have reacted the way I did. I had not gone back to GMO-type articles and if you look at my last 500 edits, they are almost all in the legal article arena (with a few outliers). I guess I just got frustrated with Jytdog coming back to WT:LAW to argue on citation style (and then OR/Synth) when all of the seasoned editors in that field are telling him that he is wrong. Then, to top it off, Kingofaces43 shows up at an article where he has never made a single edit, where the page has been nominated for GA (over a month ago), when the last substantive edit had been over a month ago, and when the photo in question had been in the article since late June (). It looked to me that he was intentionally trying to screw up the GA nomination, especially after he ignored my comment that all of the SCOTUS FAs and 2/3rds of the GAs have pictures of the justice who wrote the majority opinion. So I let him bait me and I shouldn't have.

Look, all I want to do is to work on my legal articles. I create good content and I've tried to stay out of the hot areas like Climate Change and the like. I like PraeceptorIP, and am in awe of his knowledge and expertise, so I try to help him out on articles he's working on (formatting, he doesn't need help on the material itself). If they would just go back to their GMO area and leave me alone on legal articles, everything would be great.

I shouldn't have let him get to me, shouldn't have let the baiting work, but I can't change the past, just try to do better in the future. GregJackP Boomer! 06:16, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

The bad-faith assumptions you're expounding here explain a lot of the improper behavior. Baiting is a serious accusation, but one you've entirely manufactured yourself. This is all based on one single edit that I thought a picture wasn't need in an article and you went off the deep end attacking me for suggesting it. There should have been no assumption of baiting in that whatsoever. Engaging in such conspiracies when one is trying to engage in WP:BRD in good faith with you is what was disruptive here. If that can stop, any interaction we have in the future should be civil. Kingofaces43 (talk) 13:49, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

Georgewilliamherbert, could you specifically link to what you're seeing as unconstructive on my part? I summarized my interactions with Greg in a recent comment below which should show that I had been been approaching them extremely civilly throughout. The diffs and overall talk sections should speak for themselves. Kingofaces43 (talk) 14:34, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

Time for a two-way interaction ban and/or some carefully targeted topic bans? --Guy Macon (talk) 05:00, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

If someone really wanted to impose an interaction-ban, there can be evidence for a one-way interaction ban against GregJackP (though I wouldn't intend to interact directly with them anyways). If someone actually reads the diffs on 'my interactions with this user, there is no evidence for an interaction ban. I've been extremely civil responding to the various attacks, so it seems sort of silly to impose a two-way ban. Others are trying to interject some larger and separate dispute into this with another editor as a proxy. Kingofaces43 (talk) 13:49, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

Since there's been some confusion and people bringing up an entirely different dispute between other editors, here's a timeline of my actual interactions with GregJackP:

1. I had the Bowman page on my watchlist and had been catching up on various content disputes occurring there. I noticed GregJackP had been edit warring that day, so I left them a friendly reminder about 3RR so they didn't cross it. Some discussion occurred over how many reverts actually occurred, but the the goal was just to caution them in good faith, not some sort of punishment.
2. I later went to leave a note at a talk page of another editor on the page about expert editors. Another editor which GregJackP has been heavily involved with, Jytdog, had already posted a very similar note, so I left my comment in that section. That was as close as I ever came to interacting with Jytdog there. GregJackP attacked me there too even though I made it very clear I wanted no part in whatever dispute they were having at the time.
3. I had no interaction with the page or users there for about a month. An ANI apparently occurred where GregJackP and Jytdog came up, which is what other editors commenting here have been mentioning, and some are trying to create the idea I was involved in all that drama.
4. I'm looking over the Bowman article a few days ago and think a picture isn't needed. It seemed uncontroversial, so I deleted it per WP:BRD expecting someone to revert and discuss if they felt strongly about it.
5. GregJackP went of the rails pretty quickly in the discussion (calling my edit harassment in one edit summary)as I tried to ask him what purpose the picture was serving. . I kept trying to redirect him to be civil and simply answer my question so we could resolve it, but they just kept resorting to some conspiracy of being attacked.
6. It took another editor to actually address my question at the end of the section to actually reach the purpose of the discussion, while GregJackP resorted to sniping in it.

Those are all my interactions with GregJackP up to the hounding at the ash borer page. There's no reason for GregJackP to react as he did to my edit or initial question. The hounding aspect is described in my original post above of deleting pictures with a disruptive purpose at an article I was putting under GA review. Claims that I'm resorting to the same behavior as GregJackP are unsubstantiated in my interactions listed above. I encourage folks to actually look at my edits and interactions before jumping to claims that I've been embroiled in some larger dispute with GregJackP that resulted in this incident. Kingofaces43 (talk) 14:22, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

• All interactions between Kingofaces43 and GregJackP are listed at .
• All interactions between Kingofaces43 and Jytdog are listed at .
• All interactions between GregJackP and Jytdog are listed at .
• All interactions between all three are listed at .

--Guy Macon (talk) 15:04, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

And this appears to be the start of where things really went off the rails. --Guy Macon (talk) 15:14, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

To expand a bit on the above, I think Jytdog has been trying to pick a fight with GregJackP for a long time, that GregJackP 's responses to Jytdog haven't been perfect but neither are they over the top, that Kingofaces jumped in a started behaving the same way Jytdog was acting, and in particular jumping into a legal artice (GregJackP's main area of interest) and picking a fight, and that suddenly GregJackP and Kingofaces found themselves in a nasty dispute in an area where Kingofaces considers himself to be an expert. That last bit is only a small part of the overall problem, and by no means the start of it, but in my opinion it is where things really went off the rails.

So far the consensus at ANI seems to be that all three of these editors have been part of the problem. It seems to me that GregJackP's contribution to the problem is smaller, but I may be biased because I have a favorable view towards him. The key here is that GregJackP admits that he reacted poorly and was wrong to do so, while Jytdog appears to be dedicated to continuing to battle. I am not sure about Kingofaces; I suspect that he is a good-faith editor who allowed himself to get sucked into a fight. I am hoping that he too will admit that he behaved poorly and that he and GregJackP can shakes hands. apologize, and try to avoid this sort of conflict in the future.

On a related note, I think someone with more knowledge on the topic than I have should look into possible problems in articles relating to Monsanto. I have no idea if anyone is misbehaving, but some of the comments are troubling. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:28, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

Guy Macon, some of the troubling comments are coming from a set of editors casting aspersions about me without evidence backing the claims up. It's extremely difficult to take claims at face value others have been making about my intent at least because of that. Jytdog isn't even involved in this particular dispute at all, so why he keeps being brought up is beyond me unless others are just trying to perpetuate whatever dispute was happening there. This is amounting to a witch hunt because I made an edit GregJackP disagreed with and I also happen to overlap with Jytdog in agricultural topics we both independently follow. With all that in mind, and since I've known you to be pretty even handed in comments in the past, could you tell me what specific comments caused you to say I was "behaving the same way Jytdog" or anything else that was interpreted as problematic? I included diffs or links to series of comments for all my interactions in this case because they should show very clearly there was no misbehavior on my part all when read in context. I'm quite happy to respond to critiques of my comments in a pointed manner for clarification. Kingofaces43 (talk) 01:41, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Bigger picture

There's much more to this than Kingofaces43 is disclosing, and there's a reason other editors have linked his behavior with disputes involving Jytdog.

Here is what took place on the Bowman v. Monsanto Co.:

June 20 - June 22

• Jytdog edit wars to insert his POV info that was not supported by his source: , .

June 21

• During the course of a major rewrite of the article, GregJackP added the uncontroversial picture of Justice Kagan to the article:

June 22

• Kingofaces43 templates GregJackP on his talk page for edit warring on the Bowman article , even though GregJackP had only 2 reverts while Jytdog had 3 (see above). Kingofaces43 had never edited on either the article or the article's talk page. Note that the picture of Justice Kagan was already in the article, and Kingofaces43 did not raise any question or objection to it.

• Jytdog chastises PraeceptorIP about his edits on Bowman, and continues to push his POV to support his continuous reverting to include faulty info. . Within 6 minutes, Kingofaces43 shows up on Praeceptor's talk page to support Jytdog, even though Kingofaces43 had never edited the article or engaged in discussion on the talk page:

• Jytdog says he's dropping the issue on the talk page:

• GregJackP nominates Bowman for GA .

June 23-July 23

• There are no substantive edits on Bowman and the article becomes stable, awaiting GA review .

July 23

• Kingofaces43 removes the picture of Justice Kagan from the article, having never before edited the article or its talk page, and after a month without any substantive edits to Bowman.
• GregJackP explained the inclusion of the picture as soon as he reverted the removal in a civil manner: . Another editor joined the discussion as well supporting Greg's position , yet Kingofaces43 tenaciously continued to argue and would not accept reasoned discussion , , , ,
• It is interesting to note that King's removal of the uncontroversial picture came right on the heels of another of Jytdog's unwarranted and failed content disputes with GregJackP and Praeceptor here and here ,

This is not the first time editors have had problems with Jytdog and Kingofaces43 being acting in tandem in what appears to be bullying and canvassing, all the while claiming to be acting civilly: , ,,

GregJackP, no doubt, engaged in some uncivil dialogue in the course of these disputes, and he has acknowledged his inappropriate response to Kingofaces43. But if you consider the bigger picture, it does look like Kingofaces' removal of the picture on Greg's GAN was not innocent - it does look like Kingofaces was making a deliberately controversial edit to retaliate for a past dispute (i.e. Kingofaces was baiting GregJackP).Minor4th 19:47, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

• No one else did, so I left a notification at Jytdog's user talk. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:09, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

I haven't yet had time to look through all the history of this, but I've previously edited with Jytdog and Kingofaces on some content disputes involving Monsanto, and my past experience has been that Jytdog, in particular, has been pretty scrupulous about WP:NPOV with respect to content in this subject area, and that anything having to do with Monsanto tends to be a magnet for "Monsanto-is-evil" POV-pushing. I hasten to add that I do not know whether there was such pushing in this case, nor do I know about the level of civility in the present dispute, but when I see "Jytdog edit wars to insert his POV", my immediate reaction is to want to hear the other side of the argument. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:20, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

What User:Tryptofish, who is not an administrator but should be one, says, is absolutely correct. There are a few subjects on which rational discourse is not possible, because there is an already established point of view that will stop at nothing. There are a few editors who are so certain that Monsanto is evil that they know, beyond knowledge, that no editor can agree with an edit that removes "anti-Monsanto" content on policy grounds, and that any removal of "anti-Monsanto" edits must be based on ownership of Monsanto stock. Some editors really do assume bad faith by any editor who will make any edit that removes "anti-Monsanto" edits on grounds of conflict of interest. Can we really agree not to make idle accusations of COI, and just talk about Monsanto? If so, good. If not, you have about two months to do your name-calling before the Arbcom kicks in discretionary sanctions. Anyway, please try to be civil, even though I know that all of you, on both sides, will be uncivil and will engage in pointless complaints. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:41, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

The edits in question were not really a Monsanto / anti-Monsanto issue, but dealt with the issue of patent law on the issue of "making" and whether the information appeared in a law review article to support it. The information wasn't in the article, and multiple legal editors pointed that out. I don't think that any POV on the good-Monsanto or evil-Monsanto was involved, on either side of the dispute. GregJackP Boomer! 03:30, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

• I have no desire to comment on this thread, as I have been trying to steer clear of GregJackP per Tryptofish's useful advice to both of us. I will say the following two things. 1) I don't know what motivated Kingofaces to remove the picture from the Bowman article: I have not participated in that discussion as I don't care if the picture of the judge is there or not. 2) Regardless of what motivated Kingofaces' removal, it is very clear that GregJackP's interference on the Emerald Ash Borer article was just ugly retaliatory behavior, and all the counterattacking distraction doesn't change that. Jytdog (talk) 00:33, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

• Just an observation. Showing up at WT:LAW to raise issues on Bluebook and issues already settled at the talkpage of In re Alappat sure seems to be a sign that he's not "trying to steer clear" of me. I haven't gone to WP:COIN, GMO, or any of the areas that I know Jytdog edits in, and would have thought that if he was trying to steer clear, he would have done the same for my preferred subject areas. And I've already stated that I should not have responded to the obvious baiting of Kingofaces43. I'll not comment on the remarkable coincidence that Minor4h pointed out, that Kingofaces43 seems to act in tandem with Jytdog. GregJackP Boomer! 01:04, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Bringing it to WP:LAW was exactly an effort to steer clear of you; you are not identical with articles related to law nor with issues I deal with regularly. I won't be responding further to you here, as I would prefer to keep steering clear of you. Jytdog (talk) 02:13, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Bringing it to WP:LAW would be like me camping out on WP:COIN - a surefire way to come into contact. You know that. GregJackP Boomer! 03:30, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

• I have been editing articles about IP law for a long time. As far as I can GregJackP had almost no interest in IP law before his fixation on me. As near as I can tell, he is the one sticking to me; I am not following him around. I would just as soon never cross paths with the guy again. And I have not seen GregJackP show an iota of interest in COI so his showing up at COIN and other COI matters would be yet more following me around. I deeply regret ever getting involved in the Black Elk article, which I landed on via a posting at RSN. Can't turn back time but I can turn away - and have turned away - from a bad relationship. The question is, can GregJackP? Jytdog (talk) 04:58, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Minor4th, you just made some very serious WP:ASPERSIONS about me, please do not misrepresent my comments. I very clearly stated here when I first commented on anything related to the Bowman article that I came there independently and did was not interested in whatever was going on with Jytdog and GregJackP. For anyone actually reading my comments, that should have completely skewered any conspiracy theory that I'm somehow involved in whatever happened with Jytdog. I wasn't there for the bulk of content disputes, and I haven't even read the recent ANIs or other disputes you mentioned involving the two editors. I came to the article as a completely uninvolved editor, and editors trying to continue whatever spat was going on with Jytdog by attacking me simply because I piggybacked on a comment when I said I was already planning to make it separately at first is highly inappropriate. Trying here to drag me into whatever larger dispute was going on involving Jytdog is even worse.

This still boils down to me checking back on the article after the disputes settled down and thinking a picture wasn't needed. GregJackP reverted it, I tried to ask what purpose it was serving for the article, and he blew up. There is no reasonable way to claim I was misbehaving there and there is no way to paint it as me retaliating for some set of disputes I wasn't even aware of until you posted them. That was far from a controversial edit or comments on my part if you look at the actual sequence of events. Kingofaces43 (talk) 01:18, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

While all of this has been tremendous fun, can we get someone to close this? I would rather be working on creating, expanding, or improving articles. GregJackP Boomer! 01:40, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

That seems a bit premature considering we don't have any resolution on your behavior, even with your comment above saying you shouldn't have done what you did while going on to cast aspersions saying I was baiting you. That bad-faith attitude is a huge problem and disruption. The hounding wasn't excusable even if you mistakenly thought I was part of some secret cabal and completely missed comments that should have dispelled that for you ages ago. Is that all going to stop if I interact with you in the future? I've been approaching you civilly from day one. I only expect civility in return and have always tried to respond civilly to you even when you weren't to me. I can understand to a degree if you let frustration from other separate editor interactions bleed over into the brief interactions we've had, but I'd really recommend trying harder to keep such things separate in the future. I did not come here for a block or ban even though you partially derailed a GA review as you mistakenly claimed I was trying to do. I was just here to get that behavior to stop. If you can agree to stop that problematic behavior in the future, then I see no reason why this shouldn't be closed. Kingofaces43 (talk) 01:56, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

If you'll just agree to stop baiting people on articles that you have never edited, along with agreeing to stop acting in concert with Jytdog, I think we can resolve this. Or we can continue and go into more depth about your problematic behavior. Do you really want to do that? Several here have already indicated that they want to apply a WP:BOOMERANG to your report, your actions, etc. I, on the other hand, would rather get back to editing. Why don't we just do that? GregJackP Boomer! 03:30, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

That's a precarious way to handle an olive branch, but sure. Considering though that I never baited you or worked in concert with Jytdog at the article, I have no problem assuring that I also have no intention of doing so in the future either. I don't bait people and I work independently even when editors frequent similar topics as myself. You do appear to think I did, but that's part of the assuming bad-faith issue I was asking you address. Ignoring the misstep above, can I expect what I asked of you? Kingofaces43 (talk) 04:51, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Kingofaces43, I fully support Minor4th's interpretation of the diffs. That multiple people who have little to no contact with each other interpret the data in the same way and come to the same conclusions should tell you something. From where I stand, you continued disrupting the Bowman v. Monsanto Co. article in the wake of Jytdog's departure. Given the connecting evidence offered by Minor4th linking you with Jytdog, this appears open and shut. Viriditas (talk) 02:40, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Our previous interactions have been rocky at best Viriditas, but this insistence is amounting to lying about an editors comments in clear violation of WP:NPA. Please refrain from that. I made it abundantly clear in the diffs and straight from the horse's mouth what my intentions were. The diff Minor4th included even show I stated I came there independently and wasn't interested in the drama between Jytdog and GregJackP if one actually reads my comment. If I had put my comment to PraceptorIP in it's own section as I originally intended before I saw a similar section already open or even posted my comment earlier in the day (should've cut my vacation short by another hour apparently), there would have been absolutely no question. That's as close as I ever got to interacting with Jytdog. As for the actual issue at hand this was far from a controversial or disruptive edit, especially when one is assuming good faith. I know I was when I made that edit at least. Kingofaces43 (talk) 04:17, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Interactions between Kingofaces43 and Jytdog. Note that there are 42 edits on the same pages that are within 15 minutes of each other, and 79 within 2 hours of the other. If you look at the edits, on the very first page (Monsanto) you are supporting Jytdog's position on archiving even though you had not participated in the discussion. That pretty much matches what Viriditas said earlier. Jytdog makes a proposal on HFCS and 6 minutes later you are there with a support . At Organic Food, it took a whole 11 minutes for you to show support for Jytdog's proposal . I could go on and on. So for you to claim that you don't interact with Jytdog is just false. Drop the stick, let's go back to editing. GregJackP Boomer! 04:49, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

As stated previsouly, our topic areas overlap in agriculture. Considering that I often get short breaks in the day where I'll hop on Misplaced Pages, of course there are going to be a few times when I see a very recent update on my watchlist I respond to that happens to be his. I react quickly to other editors too when I have a bit of time. It's called having articles on your watchlist, so again, please refrain from casting aspersions. As I've mentioned, I don't care what your obsession is over Jytdog here, but leave me out of it and stop trying to pull me into that larger dispute. I've already pointed out to you that one post coincided at the same time as one of his, but there was no interaction going on at Bowman. Kingofaces43 (talk) 04:56, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

• A note for those claiming I somehow came to the Bowman article due to Jytdog (which is still completely tangential here). I clearly summarized in one of my first interactions with the topic on a user's talk page that I came there independently, "I was actually going to pop over here to say the same thing. I'm just catching up on my watchlist after some time away." GregJackP was already alerted to this well before this current dispute and that I wanted nothing to do with whatever spat GregJackP and Jytdog were having. I've iterated this a few times here already, but since this is clearly from the horse's mouth both now and in my original interactions, can we at least cease with the distraction from whatever other disputes GregJackP has been in? Kingofaces43 (talk) 04:51, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

The problem is that people don't believe you, based on the evidence in the diffs and your history of showing up to support Jytdog. Again, I encourage you to drop this and let's all get back to editing. GregJackP Boomer! 05:00, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

As I've asked you, please drop the stick on continuing these false accusations. You're only continuing the cycle every time I've civilly asked you to stop. In this venue especially, I'm going to set the record straight if someone is misrepresenting me. The diffs clearly show my intent in the series of edits as I explained it, that I was there independently, and that there wasn't wrongdoing on my part if one actually reads my comments thoroughly. I even stated all that outright well before this ANI even started. If after all that someone chooses to assume bad faith, we might as well delete WP:AGF and let everyone assume bad faith for whatever dispute they want. As I've asked before, please just stop the attacks. Kingofaces43 (talk) 05:27, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Kingofaces43, you claim that this has nothing to do with Jytdog, but you placed a warning about edit warring on GregJackP's talk page (but not Jytdog's) concerning a page on which GregJackP and Jytdog were interacting. Two days later you removed a picture of supreme court justice Elena Kagan from that page -- a page you had never edited before. This was followed by GregJackP removing some pictures from Emerald ash borer, the two of you edit warring, and the page being protected.

Concerning the merits of the warning, my count on that page is

• GregJackP: original edit.
• Jytdog reverts: 1RR
• GregJackP reverts: 1RR
• Jytdog reverts: 2RR
• Minor4th reverts" 1RR

So you gave a warning for edit warring to an editor who was at 1RR, didn't give it to the editor who was at 2RR, and a couple of days later engaged in a real edit war on another page. I don't consider that to be helpful.

Nor do I consider GregJackP's behavior to be helpful. He edit warred on Emerald ash borer too. Also, after you removed the picture from Bowman v. Monsanto Co. in a clear case of hounding, he removed several pictures from Emerald ash borer in a clear case of hounding you right back. The only question is who is going to admit that they lost their cool and behaved poorly and who will ignore the first rule of holes and claim innocence. GregJackP has alreasdy admitted that he behaved poorly and made a commitment to not do it again. Your responses sound like you believe that your behavior was correct and that you would do it again. --Guy Macon (talk) 09:36, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

• I'll have to say a lot of those comments about me are way off base. Let's start with the edit waring template. If you actually read what I wrote in that overall conversation , I did not place a template on Jytdog's page because they had previously stated they were done at the page. A warning would have served no purpose unless they started editing again, in which case I would have left a warning there myself just the same (I almost did until I saw his comment saying he was leaving). I count the original edit as a revert too (there is some variation in what people think on that), but I made it clear I posted it, "as a good faith reminder" and not as some sort of punishment. I generally welcome such reminders and make my intent clear for others when I post them. It also looks like only looked at edits on June 22 instead of edits in the 24 hours period going into June 21. Edit warring was occurring regardless of how one counts reverts and that was the take home message to be wary about since things were looking precarious from an uninvolved editor just starting to catch up on edits I'd missed. The breakdown of different ways people consider "reverts" is also in the edit warring talk page discussion where I made it clear I wasn't trying to pin GregJackP down for a certain number of reverts, but just as a previously uninvolved editor asking for caution about edit warring.
• I'm not sure where you get the idea that I removed the picture two days later. The edit warring template was a full month before I made the picture edit, not two days (June vs. July confusion maybe). Part of the reason I didn't even look at the article during the in-between time was because I didn't want to be involved in whatever tussle was going on at the time after seeing how GregJackP came after me, so I came back at a later date instead when things had settled looking at what I myself thought of the article for improvements. That some have manufactured this idea that I had other intents is problematic, but when I reiterated time and again what my actual intentions were, that point should have been a closed book as far as any scrutiny on why I was editing the article.
• Again, there's no case for claiming I was ever hounding GregJackP. It's clear now he does not react well to my presence there (and I hope that changes in the future), but that's quite opposite to me hounding someone. When I edited the article a full month after my brief interaction with him, I approached the article edit and conversation civilly. It's starting to be clear from this his responses here that bad faith was assumed (i.e., baiting) when I've explicitly stated I was approaching the whole thing with good faith.
• My edits on the emerald ash borer page were removal of vandalism and do not count as edit warring as they are not reverts per WP:NOT3RR for reverting obvious vandalism. There's no question hounding was occurring there in order to deliberately disrupt an article to prove a point. That very squarely fits the definition of WP:VANDAL. That can be discussed more if you want since that's why I originally came here in the first place. I stopped removing it when it was apparent the hounding was going to continue, and came here instead.
• As for GregJackP, they have continued to make baiting accusations even though they have been told I never intended any such thing, so that commitment was chopped up pretty quickly. I've still been civilly extending that olive branch to them in this conversation and simply asking for the bad-faith attitude to stop. That's never been rescinded either. I'm commenting on my behavior because people are making accusations about my intent that I have shown to be completely false straight from the horses mouth. It's a simple case of bad faith being and ignoring my comments stating what my actual intent was, and I'm just asking for that to stop. Kingofaces43 (talk) 13:33, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Break for convenience

Sigh. I would much rather just get back to editing. I've admitted that I overreacted to what appeared to be baiting by you and you said that you are not interested in sanctions. So what is the purpose in this anymore? Unless you are lying about the desire for sanctions, why not just close this and go back to editing. Instead, we're still here. OK, as to your latest misinformation.

• Jytdog stated that he was leaving the page and leaving it alone - so why was there a need to place an EW template? And to misstate the number of reverts as four, instead of two? It seems as if this was acting in concert with Jytdog, especially since you did not (and have never) templated him.
• I'm sure Guy Macon just misread June & July, it happens, but it does not negate the fact that you removed a photo from an article that you had never edited or commented on while it was nominated for GA. This, as I'm sure Guy remembers, is oddly reminiscent of what Jytdog did in the discussion on Bad Elk v. United States, by filing for a GA reassessment as a way to force his view on the other editors. So we have a pattern of interfering with good articles, first by Jytdog, then by Kingofaces43.
• You did not approach the discussion civilly, but with a WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality. When I reverted, I explained, civilly, that in the legal article field (and an article about a SCOTUS case is first and foremost a legal article), all of the FAs and 2/3rds of the GAs had pictures of the SCOTUS justice who wrote the opinion. Instead of accepting that, you brought up WP:WEIGHT, which doesn't even apply to the issue, and continued to argue. This shows very clearly that you appeared to be baiting and interfering with the GA nomination process.
• You keep bringing up that you have said that you did everything correctly, that people should take your word over the evidence provided by others in the form of diffs, etc. I'm sorry, but it's clear that a majority of the commenters here do not believe what you are saying. They see the same pattern that I see. If you don't want people to believe that you and Jytdog act in concert, then don't act in concert with him.
• At this point, it is equally troubling that you can't understand why all of these editors are coming to same the conclusion, that it looks like you were baiting or acting in concert with Jytdog, even if you were not. The actions have that appearance that you and Jytdog were acting in concert and even if it is an astronomical coincidence, you can't seem to acknowledge how reasonable editors can view the evidence in that light. At this point, you may want to consider reading WP:1AM, it has good advice in it.

Finally, you say that you want this to stop—that's in your control. I have said repeatedly that I want to get past my overreaction to what looked like baiting, forget about this, and go back to editing. In other words, for this to stop and this thread to be closed. All it will take for that to happen is for you to drop the WP:STICK, we know how you feel already. Just drop it and go back to editing insect articles, and let me work on legal articles. GregJackP Boomer! 21:26, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

I indicated sanctions likely would not be needed because I was hoping you would stop these issues related to your assumption of bad faith. That appears to still be occurring in your post above, which is only spurring this on further. You're still at this point misrepresenting my comments considering your assertions should have been completely dispelled before this ANI even started by simply reading my comments. At the end of the day, consensus is not determined by votes, but the substance of what's behind them. Considering the diffs explicitly dispel the various assertions about me pretty handily, those aspersions are not going to stick. What I am concerned about is that you are ignoring comments that should have completely separated me from whatever spat you had with Jytdog or even an independent thought of bad-faith. It's the bad-faith I want to see stop if I run across you in crop patent related articles in the future as we both can be considered WP:EXPERTS there.

I'm not going to try to further the content dispute, but I will address the mischaracterizations (again) of my comments you bulleted. I said on your talk page that the number of reverts you had could be considered 4, but I considered 3 to be pretty solid, but not really 2. That wasn't the take home message though as you had already been made aware there. As I stated before, I have no idea what other disputes you've been in with Jytdog, and you've been made aware of that already. With that, you already should have known that my removal of the picture had nothing to do with whatever those disputes were considering I have my reasoning for it. When you refused to address the reason why I thought it should be removed and instead made a WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS argument, I civilly kept asking you what purpose the image actually served with no response on that front. You only needed to give actual reasons for including it happened with another editor here. I may not have agreed with that example entirely, but it easily could have been discussed civilly.

So, we're at the point that even though you're saying you acted poorly, you're still continuing some of these bad-faith assumptions. Only when one assumes bad-faith can one get a different read on my comments initially, which is why I was very careful to make sure my comments were crafted to avoid such thoughts. I acknowledge you thought I was baiting you even with all the comments I made that should have told you otherwise. That was one of the problems I wanted addressed here though. Will bad-faith assumptions and focusing on the contributor so much rather than content not occur if I interact with you in the future? If that is a yes without any sniping, then there's no need to continue the conversation here any further as all my concerns would be alleviated at this time. Kingofaces43 (talk) 01:14, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Sigh. OK, I thought I have been clear, but apparently not. I do not believe you. I believe what the diffs and behavioral evidence show, which is also what a number of other editors think, and that is that you were baiting. I believe that the removal of the picture was intended to bait. I reacted poorly to your baiting. Now, unless you are lying about seeking sanctions, as it seems more and more that you dragging this out to get sanctions, it would be better to move on and go back to editing.

I will also note that the "content not the contributor" line is one we hear from Jytdog on a regular basis too. Yet you drug us here over a contributor issue. You don't get to bring someone to ANI, talk about all of their issues, and not have your own issues addressed in return.

Finally, I really don't care what you want addressed. I admitted that I overreacted to your baiting. Unless you are lying about sanctions, drop the stick and go back to editing. GregJackP Boomer! 02:50, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

• I'm dubious of the suggestion that Jytdog and Kingofaces43 are really coordinating what they do, as opposed to having overlapping content interests. I've looked a bit more at some links that Guy Macon provided earlier in this discussion, and I'd like to repeat two of them here: and . A feature of the analyser is that it shows, in blue, which editor was editing a given page first, and the two links seem to me to show rather clearly that the trend has been that GregJackP has arrived at most of these pages after either Jytdog or Kingofaces43, not the other way around. But more specifically at the Bowman v. Monsanto page and talk page, the sequence is Jytdog first, GregJackP second, and Kingofaces43 third. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:47, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Sure, I showed up to Bowman after Jytdog. If you look at this analysis of Bowman v. Monsanto, Jytdog removed an edit by PraeceptorIP, an acknowledged expert in the field of intellectual property law. Praeceptor asked me to look at the article here, because Jytdog was harassing him over COI editing (where there was none), and did not understand that explanatory notes can be included in reference footnotes (this has subsequently been cleared up with Jytdog). After looking at the article, the case opinion, and the secondary sources, it was clear that the article could be improved to a good article, and I made extensive edits to the article. In addition, five different editors agreed on the legal material included in the article, and Jytdog accepted the consensus on June 22, here.

If you look at the history in the analyzer between the three of us, you'll see that Praeceptor made the first edit to In re Alappat and Jytdog followed him there to harass him on non-existant COI. The same thing happened at In re Bilski.

The actual first contact I ever had with Jytdog however was on Plummer v. State (analyser) and Bad Elk v. United States (analyser). Both of these articles were firmly in the legal area and not in the area that Jytdog typically edits in.

I hope that explains the timeline a little better for you. It was after some of the harassment of Praeceptor by Jytdog that you advised him about Javert. It was after we both agreed to step away that he shows up at WP:LAW. Both of us have areas that we could have done better, but it is incorrect to state that I followed him around. Regards, GregJackP Boomer! 00:28, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Tryptofish. It's been mentioned before, but just to reiterate on my being the third editor, the article had already been on my watchlist before GregJackP started editing there, and I likely would have made a comment or two of my own volition in previous discussions if I hadn't been generally offline and not not really paying attention to articles on my watchlist as much. Kingofaces43 (talk) 01:18, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

I too am dubious that Jytdog and Kingofaces43 are really coordinating what they do. I don't think Jytdog would stand for it. In my opinion, Jytdog is a fighter -- sometimes too much of a fighter -- but not the kind of person who sneakily breaks the rules. Whether you agree with him or not, he is open about his actions and motives, and I think he want's what is best for the encyclopedia. On the other hand, I am dubious about the two of them just having overlapping content interests. I think the examples of Kingofaces43 supporting Jytdog are too big of a coincidence. If i had to guess, I would guess that Kingofaces43 is supporting Jytdog without Jytdog's prior knowledge or approval (although, like anyone, he naturally welcomes any support). I just don't see any evidence against Jytdog here. --Guy Macon (talk) 03:50, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Guy Macon, I can understand that doubt, I would have it myself if not for way too many coincidences in their history:

• Jytdog adds a source (a press release from Elsevier, which is odd considering how Jytdog talks about WP:RS) to an article here. Seven minutes later, Kingofaces43 adds the exact same press release to the article, here. Both of them got the release at the same time and decided to add it to the same article? Without any sort of coordination?
• Going through Kingofaces43's contributions, there does not appear to be another instance in two years where he has removed a photo from an article, yet he decides to remove a photo from a GA nominated article? And as you know, one of Jytdog's first moves in the Bad Elk dispute was to call for a GA review on the article. Coincidence?
• Kingofaces43 has a history of issuing warnings only on one side of a dispute, always the side that is opposed to Jytdog's position. See (no warning to other party, who had 3RR); (no warning to other parties, who had just as many reverts); (no warning to Jytdog, who had more reverts), and so on. It just happens that Kingofaces issues warnings to people who oppose Jytdog? Really?
• Kingofaces43 is telling people not to "cast aspersions" on Jytdog's talk page .

Guy, I could go on and on with examples, but I believe that I have good reason to believe that they are coordinating this. Even if they are not, I am still convinced that this was baiting, perhaps as you opine, just from Kingofaces43 desire to support Jytdog. In any event, this has gone on long enough. Someone needs to close it and we can go back to creating articles. GregJackP Boomer! 06:11, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

GregJackP you are not steering clear of me but instead are steering harder into me. As I said I have no idea why Kingofaces removed the picture and i don't care. Arguments about images are generally preference-based and lead to emotional arguments and I just don't care. But removing the picture doesn't "support me". I have no war with you for Kingofaces to be my ally in. The BATTLEGROUND is all in your head - you are pursuing me - I don't want to be anywhere near you in WP. The fantasy of "allies" and "sides" goes along with the BATTLEGROUND mentality; I ~could~ make the same arguments you are making about you and Minor4h, and stronger ones. I have no desire to do that nor to interact with you at all

I will say here, that I think that Kingofaces used bad judgement in removing the picture, especially as he was aware of the charged context. It wasn't worth arguing about and I am sure that in retrospect he realizes that a shitstorm was likely to ensue and it wasn't worth whatever improvement he thought removing it might create in the poisoned atmosphere. That is the reality of WP. Both GregJackP and Kingofaces used poor judgement and everybody seems to agree on that; GregJackP's behavior was arguably worse for being clearly retaliatory - Kingofaces at least had some reason for what he did as he described at the Talk page (a weak, preference-based reason, as most arguments about images are), but it was still, in my view, bad judgement and not worth it. And an RfC probably would have gone GregJackP's way, as pictures of justices who write opinions are common in articles about decisions.

Guy Macon, your comment here is wrong. I have no desire to pick fights with GregJackP. The interaction at Black Elk/Plummer started at RSN and I had no experience with the editors involved before that. That did go badly but the articles were improved at the end of the day. I acknowledged my part in that going badly, and I have moved on. GregJackP has done neither. Much later, he then started pursuing me over issues around PraeceptorIP's editing. And now this which is essentially a continuation of his grudge against me by proxy. I do not pursue him nor pick fights with him. As I wrote above, I am unhappy to have ever encountered GregJackP and I do not seek him out. He is fixed on me. Not vice versa. I am not seeking action on this, at this time, as I am hoping that GregJackP will just heed Tryptofish's advice and steer clear of me, finally, as I have been him.

And the source GregJackP characterizes as a "press release" was indeed a press release - from a journal announcing retraction of a paper which was a huge event in the Seralini affair and the content it was used to support was closely based on it. Not PROMO. Nobody involved in those articles, which were highly contested, objected to its inclusion and his bringing that up as he did, is just more ugly cherry-picking battleground crap.

Really GregJackP your grudge against me is taking you way too far and you are digging yourself a nasty little hole. For pete's sake. Let go of the grudge already.

And the way to end this thread is to just stop posting here already. But based on your history, you need to have WP:THELASTWORD and will continue making arguments, and then beg for a close, yet again. Prove me wrong. The same advice to you Kingofaces - GregJackP has acknowledged he acted badly and nobody thinks your edit on the Bowman article was good judgement. Jytdog (talk) 14:06, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Given the following three facts: I have carefully researched the interactions between Kingofaces43 and GregJackP but have only briefly glanced at the interactions between Jytdog and GregJackP, I have a high opinion of Jytdog in general -- even where we have disagreed about content or his behavior I can see that he does good work and wants what is best for the encyclopedia, and Jytdog's reasoned argument that I was wrong in my evaluation, I am going to retract and ammend what I said earlier about Jytdog as follows:

I retract my earlier comment about picking fights. I see no evidence from this thread that Jytdog misbehaved in any way, and I specifically reject the assertion that he colluded with another editor. I am going to strike certain comments of mine after I post this. While I do think that the evidence shows Kingofaces supporting Jytdog, I don't believe that Jytdog did anything other than treat said support the way any Misplaced Pages editor would treat someone who supports his position. If anyone thinks Jytdog misbehaved, they are free to open up an ANI case with specific diffs showing the alleged misbehavior, and I will be happy to analyses the evidence at that time. To Jytdog, I am sorry that I came to a hasty conclusion that, as I look back on it, was not based upon the evidence. I apologize for that. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:33, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

That was amazingly gracious and nuanced, Guy - rare qualities to find at ANI. Thank you. Jytdog (talk) 20:38, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

+1. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:24, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

I've gone carefully through all of the replies since my last comment, above. I agree with what Guy Macon said just above me here. And I've looked carefully at the evidence that GregJackP provided in response to what I said. As for the edit interactions at Bowman between Jytdog and PraeceptorIP, what I'm seeing is Jytdog taking an interest in Monsanto-related controversies, an area where he has long been interested (and helpful), and his objections to PraeceptorIP's edits seem to center on the latter's additions of footnotes to the page, in which the footnotes express subjective views about the page content. It's something where reasonable editors can disagree, but Jytdog's preference against the footnotes does not seem out of line to me. (GregJackP also seems to indicate that Jytdog did not push for some of this, when talk page discussion did not agree with him, something that is not consistent with fighting over a POV.) The edits at Bad Elk and at Plummer seem to me to be following related content through related pages, rather than following any editor. As for the Elsevier press release at the Seralini page (a page that I, too, have edited, and has been a page where Jytdog has contributed a lot), the first edit, by Jytdog, does not include a "page name" parameter in the citation, but the next edit, right after, by Kingofaces43, does include "a page name=". That shows me that Kingofaces43 did not copy it from Jytdog, but did copy it from somewhere else on Misplaced Pages. I think I'm seeing what may be some sloppiness on Kingofaces43's part, and I think I'm seeing GregJackP appear to attribute bad motives to edits that may not really have had such motives. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:31, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

I’ll agree in an ambivalent fashion that I could be considered sloppy in the actual part of the dispute I’ve been involved in. On one end, I’m pretty adamant about assuming good-faith on my part. That good faith leads into assuming other editors are doing the same. That appears to be what caught me off guard about GregJackP’s actions. On the other end, I apparently set off some drama with GregJackP because of their previous disputes that I had not followed at all at other articles, ANI, etc. I came in unassuming, but it’s looking like I maybe should have followed the drama more instead. When it comes to the ideal of good-faith, we shouldn’t have to be worried that, but just simply focus on content. That apparently did not work in this situation, which I think is part of a larger systematic problem here that really concerns me. I guess reality dictates otherwise though.

As I’ve mentioned before though, I’m really just looking for the bad-faith attitude to stop as well as the hounding that occurred. That’s why I don’t think sanctions are needed if it’s made clear it will stop. The bad-faith is still occurring though looking at recent comments (still claiming baiting), so it looks like it’s not getting through. No one has proposed the need for sanctions at this point either, so I’m willing to let this incident be with the warning that sanctions will need to be considered if this continues to be a problem in future interactions. Does that sound like a decent resolution to everyone? Kingofaces43 (talk) 20:48, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes, it sounds reasonable to me, pending what others here might have to say, and I thank you for offering a peaceful resolution. In case it wasn't clear enough from my previous remark, please let me make it clear that "sloppiness" is not in any way an ANI matter, just a matter for fixing with subsequent edits. I hope that, next, we can hear that that the bad-faith assumptions will stop. This entire dispute strikes me as one that does not require sanctions against anyone, but just a return to editing with less perception of adversary camps. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:24, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

• Request for close - this seems like a good place to close, with the two parties GregJackP and Kingofaces43 having, more or less, acknowledged their parts in the dispute and an indication that they intend not to repeat the behavior. Minor4th 15:56, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

As with my last comment here, I'm perfectly fine with this being closed whenever someone gets to it. I've been willing to give another chance for a future interaction to occur in good-faith, but acknowledgement here that jumping to bad-faith will stop isn't absolutely needed. I'll just see what the future holds instead. Kingofaces43 (talk) 17:55, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

GregJackP, did you call me a hypocrite? If so, it lends credence to Kingofaces43's concerns. The reason that I felt that we had a resolution now, moreso than before, is that Kingofaces is the editor who opened this complaint, so when the opening poster expresses the opinion that the original concerns have been addressed as much as they are going to be, that's a reason to conclude the process. In any case, I agree with Minor4th and Kingofaces that it's time to close this discussion. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:10, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

• There's been a lot of nice words said up above, but at the end of the day it's the behavior that counts. Unfortunately, it looks like the hounding is continuing from Jytdog, as he has now followed the relevant parties to Alice Corp. v. CLS Bank Int'l. As you can see from that diff, Jytdog's first edit was to slap a citation needed tag on the article without discussion on 29 July. GregJackP had edited the article the previous day. So contrary to the words exchanged above, Jytdog is still stalking GregJackP. Kingofaces43 and Jytdog continue to claim that they are trying to avoid GregJackP, but the diffs show a different story. Behavior is what counts here, not words. Viriditas (talk) 21:44, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

It's apparently OK for them to follow people, or propose closure at ANI, but not for others. BTW, Jytdog had never edited the article prior to placing a {{cn}} tag on the article, the same as Kingofaces43 had never edited Bowman prior to removing the photo either. PraeceptorIP even asked why Jytdog is following him from article to article, here. GregJackP Boomer! 00:54, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

The collusion between KingofAces and Jytdog is nothing new. Binksternet questioned it here with regard to Syngenta. petrarchan47คุก 03:54, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for bringing this up. I provided diffs above for several other instances where their collusion was discussed. Minor4th 19:18, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Petrarchan is fully aware that was nothing more than an aspersion from an editor given the context of my response in rest of the section that was omitted in that diff . It takes some strong confirmation bias to call that "evidence" with the full context. People can go on witchunts for editors that comment on their watch list articles for the first time, but I'm sure not going to go around to all of them making dummy "I was here first." posts to prevent that claim. The editor in this case seemed to figure out what the actual situation was with my presence at the article as I recall and dropped it. People jumping to wild conspiracy theories is a huge problem when controversies arise, but I prefer to just ignore it as I did there unless the behavior issue causes wider problems than just wild accusations.

That being said, I've said a few times I consider the particular incident settled for the purposes of this ANI even though GregJackP is still not able to let go in recent comments after my last post. If someone wants to discuss my involvement in agricultural topics beyond the kind of cherry picking that's occurred here about articles I edit or watch, they are more than welcome to open a separate section to focus on that. Kingofaces43 (talk) 20:48, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

This thread shows multiple editors, some of whom have little to no connection with each other, all coming to similar, reasonable conclusions about editorial patterns which show 1) close editing between two users, 2) on similar topics, leading to 3) stalking or hounding behavior on other editors who have contrary viewpoints. Please don't call editors who observe this demonstrable pattern "conspiracy theorists" or accuse them of witch hunts. Viriditas (talk) 00:44, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

1 and 2 are non-issues as its already clear we both edit agriculture topics. Of course we're going to come across some of the same articles and interact, especially when it comes to watch lists. 3 is where the conspiracy theory starts because there is no evidence directly supporting it on my part, and there is plenty of evidence directly refuting it describing my intent at the articles before any of this started. I know I've never followed anyone around and have said that on many occasions, so those trying to engage in bad-faith assumptions to say otherwise are not exactly on solid ground here. Time to drop this stick you've been carrying in our various interactions as well. Kingofaces43 (talk) 02:26, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

HOUNDING by Elvey

Sorry to bother you all. I cannot figure Elvey out. but he/she has taken a disliking to me and from time to time comes around behind me and argues against whatever I am trying to do. I have been putting up with it, but now he has started making a mess with a new editor who has a COI.

June 13: filed a COIN case naming me as an editor with a COI over Kaiser Permanente (where he has been hounding a disclosed representative of that company on the Talk page here and later here) and then refused twice here and here to make a case that I had a COI, or even to acknowledge that by listing my name in the posting, he had raised a concern about possible COI for me on that article. Incompetent, BATTLEGROUND behavior.

June 17: Followed me to articles he had never edited here (that one having to do with an editor working on the article about himself - so a COI issue) and here arguing against me randomly. I warned him to stop here.

July 8: Elvey went back to it here, seemingly randomly reverting my removal of content added by a blocked user, Nuklear and edit warred over that, and didn't stop until an uninvolved, chemical-savvy admin, Edgar181, explained to Elvey why Nuklear was blocked and that the content Nuklear added had an error in it anyway, and that my cleanup after Nuklear was OK with him. I gave Elvey a 2nd warning here about that.

Yesterday, a new instance. Doc James and Alexbrn and I are having a difficult but salvageable set of discussions with a new editor, ColumbiaLion212, with a disclosed COI who I advised not to edit the article directly, and who has made the newbie mistake of accusing us of a COI since we are disagreeing with him, but then Elvey showed up at ColumbiaLion's talk page and actually told ColumbiaLion that "Given the concerns you raise above (about other people's COI), I think it may be quite appropriate for you to continue to edit the article directly." This is not only incompetent and wrong but it is pure BATTLEGROUND baloney. I warned Elvey to back off here and they just came right back with more incompetent, BATTLEGROUND nonsense. I don't know if we are going to be able to get things back on track with ColumbiaLion after this bumbling.

I would like Elvey to be topic banned from discussing COI in Misplaced Pages (he is not competent to deal with editors with a COI as his behavior on Kaiser Permanente and ColumbiaLion's talk page show) and I would like a one way topic ban with regard to me since his HOUNDING of me is disrupting my work here and is harming WP. Jytdog (talk) 18:07, 25 July 2015 (UTC)Please impose a long cool-off block on Jytdog.

Response from Elvey

I twice responded to this editor's talk page accusations of HOUNDING: "Thank you for linking to that policy. In fact WP:HOUNDING#NOT says: 'racking a user's contributions for policy violations' 'is not harassment if the claims are presented civilly' '; the contribution logs exist for editorial and behavioral oversight. Unfounded accusations of harassment may be considered a serious personal attack and dealt with accordingly.'." I ask that WP:HOUNDING#NOT be enforced. diff.

I don't even think there's a need for me to dredge up diffs showing his worst behavior because his diffs supposedly showing me at my worst actually make him look bad. But let me respond to each assertion:

1. His assertion re. June 13 seems to be a lie: He must know I never said he had a COI WRT Kaiser because we've reminded him so multiple times - the diffs Jytdog provided show me pointing this out and he's been told I did no such thing repeatedly not only by me but by others as well (diff) (admin User:SlimVirgin). To continue to spread this blatant falsehood here is blatant BATTLEGROUND obsessiveness.

2. Re June 17: Take a look at the 2 edits he's pissed off about and links to, where I told users he bullied, "You may continue to make appropriate edits directly to the article, Clockback, which the WP:COI guideline definitely allows, but discourages." and, "Way to follow WP:DR, be constructive and civil, SageRad." Were they good edits? I think so. Was this hounding? I already responded to that accusation on my talk page (excerpt above). That bullying is a violation of WP:BULLY policy, which Jytdog has been repeatedly chastised for, including by at least one highly trusted administrator entrusted to use powerful mops and broomsticks with care: User:Risker.

3. Re July 8: Look at the edit history and you'll see that his edit war accusation should BOOMERANG. He edit warred; I followed standard DR.

4. Re. "Yesterday", I was directed to review Jytdog's edits by another editor, and when I did so, I was troubled and responded appropriately, as the diffs Jytdog has provided show. Specifically, I went to User:ColumbiaLion212's talk page because User:Brianhe directed me there with this edit. So I wasn't following Jytdog there at all, let alone hounding him. And even if I had followed him there, I was pointing out that he was violating WP:NOEDIT, so WP:HOUNDING#NOT is far more applicable than WP:HOUNDING . --Elvey 00:44, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

5. He grossly misrepresents when he says ColumbiaLion212 "finally" disclosed working for a company that makes CES devices; User:ColumbiaLion212 did so a day after being asked - with his very next edit - his 9th edit on Misplaced Pages!

6. Jytdog sees what he wants to see in our CoI policy; he says here that he believes that the "very strongly discouraged" in "Paid advocates are very strongly discouraged from direct article editing." is actually a "cannot". I suggest he be blocked until he is no longer delusional about what the CoI policy actually is, because he has disclosed, and demonstrated that it is his intent to attempt to enforce a nonexistent policy.--Elvey 03:04, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

As you usual Elvey makes a garble of things. In my interactions with editors who declare a COI, I never say "cannot" and you will not find any diffs where I did. Editors with a COI are strongly discouraged, and the dif he points to shows that I understand that very well. Jytdog (talk) 04:39, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

6b. Sorry but here you are telling the respectable subject of a BLP that the COI policy does not allow him to directly edit his BLP. Re your comment about #6: I provided a diff, in which he indeed says "cannot" (without the quotes). And the rest of diff does show him expressing the opinion that I described. If there's a more clear and concise way to express that Jytdog says here that he believes that the "very strongly discouraged" in "Paid advocates are very strongly discouraged from direct article editing." is actually a "cannot", I'm all ears. I note that you have not responded regarding #1, 2, 3, 4 or 5! --Elvey 05:16, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

I am not responding to you point by point because most of what you write is incoherent. Others will be able to see that. Jytdog (talk) 06:25, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

That's one way to dodge scrutiny. Snowded says my writing is perfectly coherent, so no he was not able to see that. Based on that, I would ask that any interaction ban apply to Jytdog, rather than be one-way on me. Jytdog is saying I should be banned because of the behavior defended in #1, 2, 3, 4 and 5, and yet Jytdog refuses to discuss it. That's not reasonable or fair. I've launched a solid defense of 1-6. Yet Jytdog demands I self-impose a ban for the behavior addressed in 1-6. --Elvey 16:09, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

no, i have asked the community to do this. if you just agree it will save a lot of drama but you are apparently unwilling. so on we go. Jytdog (talk) 22:43, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

I note, again, that you have not responded regarding #1, 2, 3, 4, 5, or 6b. Snowded says my writing is perfectly coherent. You have made no specific requests for clarification. Your refusing to respond is disruptive; respond or retract your campaign, Jytdog.--Elvey 02:25, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

I note, yet again, that you have not responded regarding #1, 2, 3, 4, 5, or 6b. Can someone else respond? --Elvey 22:00, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Canvassing

When opening this case, Jytdog notified no fewer than three admins and two other users who take his extremeist view of COI and I ask that any comments from the canvassed users be disregarded and that our policy on canvassing be enforced with the requested block. A WP:Sham consensus may be the result of such canvassing.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Elvey (talk • contribs) 03:01, 26 July 2015 (UTC} ) signed this additional bit of mess-making by ElveyJytdog (talk) 05:04, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Are you aware that when naming an editor in a post at ANI, you are meant to notify them? That is not canvassing. Alexbrn (talk) 07:37, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

@Snowded: Why did you add a canvassing template to my comment? I was not canvassed. Please strike or provide some justification. Alexbrn (talk) 07:17, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, what are you talking about? ----Snowded 07:26, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Apologies Snowded, got my diffs in a twist: it was Elvey who added it, so - to Elvy: Why did you add a canvassing template to my comment? I was not canvassed. Please strike or provide some justification. Alexbrn (talk) 07:39, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

If that's not canvassing, then the rule against canvassing has a giant loophole. Pinging users surely accomplishes what other forms of canvassing accomplish. But if you and Jytdog want to defend that use of the loophole, I won't fight you. The canvassing tag has been removed. --Elvey 16:09, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Survey of responses to proposal to sanction

• Note: A "Community sanction proposal" has been opened away below, below the closed subsection: here -- Jytdog (talk) 14:24, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

WP:BOOMERANG 172.56.18.107 (talk) 19:40, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

WP:WHY ? Acroterion (talk) 19:59, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

172.56.18.107 has been blocked with an expiry time of 1 week for abusing multiple accounts. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:36, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

• Block user Elvey. The accusations in the COIN charge are vague, unsupported, and unhelpful. I have tried to follow this editor's diatribes without success. @Elvey: This discussion and my investigations make it appear that you are incompetent to edit here. Please correct me by providing one or more specific edits where user Jytdog has gone astray, and how you think that they have gone astray. --Hobbes Goodyear (talk) 01:27, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

After looking at Elvey's response (try following #6, for example), I reiterate my request that Elvey be blocked temporarily and in addition banned from COI topics indefinitely. Editor does not seem to be competent to have these conversations. --Hobbes Goodyear (talk) 13:44, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

• Support COI topic ban I haven't seen WP:COIN recently, but an example of clueless COI enthusiasm is here. If there are other similar examples a topic ban is required because blundering around like that could tip the balance for some editors and make them retire. Johnuniq (talk) 02:41, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
• Ugh. Normally I'd be quite supportive of attempts to root out COI, but the discussion that Elvey has initiated with regards to Doc James and Jytdog that have been linked to here have an unpleasant whiff of McCarthyism about them. It's not serious enough to warrant a topic ban yet in my view, but at the same time it's neither helpful or appropriate to have self-appointed COI cops wandering around demanding to know if someone is or has been a member of the COI Party. It very well could turn into a topic ban or other sanctions unless Elvey moderates their approach in the future, and that would be unfortunate. Lankiveil 04:33, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Lankiveil to be clear, the reason I asked for the topic ban from COI is Elvey's incompetent interference in ongoing COI management efforts, as with ColumbiaLion212 (which was especially bad), and his interactions with the declared conflicted editor at KaiserPermanente where he abused the Talk page with soapboxing accusations. As you can see Elvey is only pushing harder here; he does not appear to be corrigible. Jytdog (talk) 04:44, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Lankiveil - Re. "self-appointed COI cops wandering around demanding to know if someone is or has " - Are you not aware that Jytdog has been going around, bullying a great many users, demanding to know if they have a COI? Need more diffs? I've already provided some. --Elvey 05:24, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

I am not talking about Jytdog here, I am talking about you. Jytdog may be a sinner or a saint, but that does not excuse your own behaviour in this area, which I regard as problematic. Seeking out COI is good, asking leading questions of editors without some proof to substantiate your suspicions creates a chilling effect that is not helpful. Lankiveil 10:06, 28 July 2015 (UTC).

Elvey, asking about someone's relationship is not demanding. Jytdog (talk) 05:38, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

• Support COI topic ban ColumbiaLion212 had gone off the rails badly but was being managed, but then Elvey came storming to their Talk page, apparently in furtherance of some kind of feud with Jytdog, and actually encouraged them to continue their COI-tainted editing. Elvey has not responded to questions about this and show no sign of getting a clue about how bad it was, so I believe a block is necessary as a preventative measure. Alexbrn (talk) 05:25, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps 172.56.18.107 is the same user that set up https://twitter.com/IndustryLapdog/with_replies! Wasn't me. --Elvey 03:25, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

• Support one-way interaction ban between Elvey and Jytdog, and COI topic ban for Elvey. His arguments here make it pretty plain that he is engaging in motivated reasoning and that this has led him to a view of COI which leads to his making - ahem - unhelpful comments. I think six months should be sufficient. Guy (Help!) 12:04, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose While Jytdog is annoyed with the other editor (who, AFAICT, made no accusations of COI about Jytdog per se), the behaviour does not, IMO, rise to the level where sanctions are called for at all. The tendency to ask for sanctions when there is a reasonable disagreement is all too common on Misplaced Pages at this point. I note Snowded's reasoning below. Collect (talk) 12:14, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose I don't often agree with Collect ;-) but in this case I do. I suggest both editors reflect a little and try and find a way to see value in the others comments before we move to sanctions. ----Snowded 12:17, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose - IMHO, seeking sanctions on another editor is the wrong way to go. But, if both individuals can't get along? then a 2-way IBAN would be best for them. GoodDay (talk) 12:28, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

To those opposing. This is about Elvey's behavior. Elvey is hounding me, not vice versa. And in the course of Elvey's hounding, Elvey inserted himself into a discussion with a new editor with a COI that was already going off the rails, and pushed it over a cliff. It is the damage to other editors and to the overall effort to manage COI in WP that led me here. Jytdog (talk) 14:01, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

The best route here for you, would be to ignore Elvey. If Elvey were to follow you around, while you're ignoring him/her? then he/she would be viewed as harrassing you. GoodDay (talk) 14:08, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

I do - I don't go fight about every harassing edit Elvey makes. But when Elvey inserts him/herself into a discussion as they did with ColumbiaLion and as they did at KaiserPermanente, they make a mess of things that cannot be ignored. Their incompetent actions on COI issues are what I am really after here. I want the one-way ban because that is what apparently drove these bumbling "interventions", and they are already fixed on me and this posting will only make that worse. Jytdog (talk) 14:21, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Claiming you've never followed me around is hogwash. The new editor hasn't been pushed off the rails; he's been scared off by Jytdog. Hasn't been back. WP:BITE, WP:BULLY etc, in action. You chased him off like a good guard dog. --Elvey 17:30, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

I have never followed you around and you have zero diffs to prove that. More nonsense. Jytdog (talk) 21:15, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

• Support either a COI topic ban of Elvey per Johnuniq and/or a one-way interaction ban of Elvey regarding Jytdog per Guy. I think that the discussion has gotten considerably off-track, but I also think that the ways in which it has gotten off-track support the appropriateness of some restrictions. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:43, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

If it is one or the other, I would choose topic banning from COI, as that is the most damaging to the community.Jytdog (talk) 20:36, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

We know you'd like that, but we're trying to determine what's equitable and practical, not what gives the complainant what he most wants.  :-/  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ≼  03:19, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Tryptofish, if I've misrepresented policy, I'd really like to know how, because I don't want to do that. The only way they've been able to suggest I've misrepresented policy has been to misrepresent what I've said, and then reach false conclusions based on false evidence - which your 'per Guy' suggests has worked. Guy grossly misrepresented my positions and then accused me of having those bad opinions, and refused to address the misrepresentations. What the hell is OK about that? If I've pointed out a true policy that you don't want what you see as the wrong people to know about, I've, reluctantly, offered to stop doing so under the terms below, at #Proposal. Please consider endorsing it. --Elvey 02:25, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Since you specifically asked me to reply, I will. I've read it, and I agree with Guy. I don't see the problem as being about misrepresenting policy, but as exhausting the community's patience with the way you communicate with other editors. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:19, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Just several days ago User:GregJackP and User:Minor4th said here that Jytdog should be banned from COI areas. User:Viriditas chimed in, "Jytdog seem to disrupt every article where the word "Monsanto" appears, have you considered voluntarily withdrawing from any and all Monsanto-related topics?" --Elvey 02:25, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Risker recently said of Jytdog, "I worry a great deal about the really shoddy way we treat the subjects of our biographical material." I do too. Right after the shoddy treatment Jytdog gave Clockback, a subject of our biographical material, and NEVER APOLOGIZED FOR, I responded with factually correct information, which no one is disputing, but some here nevertheless want to ban me for. What the hell kind of respect for the subjects of BLP is that? --Elvey 02:39, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Don't drag me into this - I'm not saying anything about Jytdog, one way or another. We resolved our issue. GregJackP Boomer! 04:57, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

"Someone had a concern" isn't very helpful. I'd like to hear from those four editors or have specific pointers to the discussions of what they think the alleged issues with Jytdog are. Never mind, I found it. Jytdog having any COI-patrolling and civility issues of his own would not magically make Elvey's actions okey-dokey, but we may be looking at a mutual interaction ban, even a mutual topic ban or other action; Upate:I don't see a mutual issue. ANI is not a forum for one side to "win" with quicker and craftier argumentation or a bigger enourage. I'm not convinced a long topic ban is needed here, though, for anyone. If an editor has WP:COMPETENCE problems (which Elvey clearly does with regard to at least COI, CIVIL, and CANVASS interpretation), this is generally resolved with experience, which they cannot gain if barred from the area in which they need to develop better competence. If there's an interaction ban, set a time limit, like 6 months. Long-term ones are too easily gamed, are onerous, and usually don't serve any purpose but cementing a dispute forever instead of letting it naturally come to a "why were we even fighting?'" WP:DGAF realization, and become by-gones. Permanent topic bans are rarely useful except with regard to actual soapboxing POV-pushers, or "great wrongs" battlegrounders, and just serve to create martyrs-in-their-own-minds among editors who mean well but are "differently clued" at the moment. I do agree that the COIN filing by Elvey of vague, unsupported-aspersion casting should not go unaddressed, probably with a 3-month COI topic ban, regardless of other matters and outcomes.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ≼  03:19, 28 July 2015 (UTC) Updated. 05:10, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks SMcCandlish I was recently brought to Arbcom (case was dismissed) and at the same time to ANI (no action) over my COI activities. Elvey is having a field day quoting stuff from those events. I took a week off from dealing with COI issues to get feedback as advised at Arbcom and got some good feedback, which I've been reflecting on; I still have still not fully gone back to my former levels of COI work as I am still considering some things. Elvey keeps quoting stuff from those stale (and older) cases as though it is hot news.

The problem with Elvey's involvement in COI matters is that he is "intervening" in ongoing interactions with new editors who have or may have a COI (which are often delicate and require respect and diplomacy) and writing frankly incompetent things. Sometimes harassing the conflicted editors, and sometimes harassing me and encouraging bad behavior by the conflicted editor. There is no sense to it. This is really bad with new editors, especially, who are trying to learn how WP works, under pressure from their COI.

Anyway, I recognize that the community will do as it will. But working on live COI issues is not a training ground. Nothing will prevent Elvey from reading COI actions and getting their head on straight, and asking for an indef to be lifted when they can show they understand things better. But I need to stop responding to things here - have written too much already. Jytdog (talk) 03:31, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Understood. I'm interested in due diligence. Not every dogpile indicates consensus, but often bandwagon mentality, and every argument has at least two sides. Just because ArbCom or ANI previously didn't act on something doesn't mean it's not relevant, since patterns emerge over time. But I have no interest in fishing for one with regard to you; I just asked for clarification of what complaints others had raised (and it was the BITE one that caught my eye, not a COI one, but I treat all claims of wiki-wrongdoing with skepticism).  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ≼  04:22, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
Reviewed Risker's and related material, saw GregJackP's disavowal of a current dispute, and don't see a major issue. The two arbs who made the point to you that COI and paid editing are more distinct that you seemed to think at that time, probably got that point across (that was much earlier in the month), and I don't see evidence they didn't. Absent a showing of really recent issues in this regard, or of newbie-biting that's also recent, I'm satisfied there's no boomerang of any kind here, but hope the message was absorbed, to get COI/PAID policy understanding in synch with the community's if you're going to be helping new editors who have conflicts of interest.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ≼  05:10, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

• Recommendation: Elvey should be subject to a one-way interaction-ban from Jytdog, and a topic-ban from COI-related discussions and processes, for 3-6 months (concurrent) in both cases; long enough to learn these ropes and re-examine his approach. More than 1 year would be counterproductive and patently punitive at this stage. I'm particularly concerned about the aggressive nature of Elvey's approach to all this, especially the aspersion casting at WP:COIN, which can, as someone else said, "tip the balance" and drive incoming editors away. Because of the BLP connection, we have to be especially careful in this area. The sarcastic, lecturing tone of Elvey's responses here is not a good sign. WP:COMMONSENSE escape valve: Elvey should be able to report what he is sure is a glaringly obvious, unmistakable COI problem, to an admin, who could determine whether it required further investigation.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ≼  05:10, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

What is our CoI policy actually?

Jytdog sees what he wants to see in our CoI policy; he says here that he believes that the "very strongly discouraged" in "Paid advocates are very strongly discouraged from direct article editing." "is actually a cannot". I suggest he be blocked until he is no longer delusional about what the CoI policy actually is, because he has disclosed, and demonstrated that it is his intent to attempt to enforce a nonexistent policy.

Jytdog was ***roundly critized by two longtime arbitrators for his extreme interpretations of our CoI policy and treatment of User:Snowded - none other than User:Risker, who is sick of him and User:Newyorkbrad.

The diff above shows that:

Risker told Jytdog, "The ToU doesn't say what you think it says." at 10:02 am, 13 June 2015 (UTC−7)

User:Snowded told Jytdog his "absolutist interpretation of what is a guideline not policy does not help." I wish Jytdog would listen or be given some quiet time to think about it.

Risker told Jytdog, "Conflict of interest is not the same thing as paid editing. If you cannot understand that, you need to stop working in this area. Paid editing is things like Elance or other SEO organizations who specifically write for pay, or the PR department of a company. Conflict of interest is not the same thing. Again, if you insist that the two things are identical, which is exactly what you were doing in the edit I reverted, then you need to stop working in this area, because you misunderstand the basic premise." at 12:51 pm, 14 June 2015 (UTC−7)

I wish Jytdog would listen.

User:Newyorkbrad told Jytdog: "Let me see if I can help a bit here, because there is a widespread tendency to interpret the COI issue and related guidelines in a simplistic way, which is increasingly unhelpful for everyone. I'm a partner in a law firm. The firm is not notable enough for an Misplaced Pages article, but suppose I were at a larger firm and we had one. If I were to edit the article about my law firm, I would have a "conflict of interest" (the significance of which could be minor or major depending on the nature of the edits). However, I would not be a "paid editor," because my firm pays me to practice law, not to edit Misplaced Pages. Is everyone in agreement so far?" at 11:10 am, 13 June 2015 (UTC−7)

I wish Jytdog would listen.

But Risker doesn't expect Jytdog to listen; I see a need for admin action is proven by this comment and driven home by Jytdog's actions leading up to this ANI dispute: "Thank you for your illustration, NYB. I am afraid, however, that it falls on deaf ears (referring to Jytdog's ears) for those who imagine themselves pure as the driven snow." at 12:56 pm, 13 June 2015 (UTC−7)

I wish Jytdog would listen.

"Jytdog I strongly suggest stepping away from COI issues until you have taken on board the community's concerns (expressed well by Risker) regarding your editing in the area, if you don't then I would not be surprised to see a topic ban proposed at AN/I." -User:Thryduulf at 3:33 am, 12 July 2015 (UTC−7)

I wish Jytdog would listen or be given some quiet time to think about it, or made to heed this. Said topic ban is hereby proposed - probably where Jytdog got the idea to propose the same ban for me!

--Elvey 03:03, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Within the range of views that exist within WP -- which range from very strong opposition to editors with a COI even being part of the community, to opposition to dealing with COI at all and just focusing on content -- I have a moderate interpretation of COI - and above all a view centered on talking with people about what we all care about - namely good content. Additionally, we don't have a COI policy at all. We have a COI guideline. Elvey's post from its header on, is an incoherent ramble, cherry picked from various discussions, and a demonstration of what I mean about their lack of competence to discuss these things. Jytdog (talk) 05:10, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Elvey would you please add difs to your quotes above? I checked Risker's contribs and they made no comment at 12:56 pm, 13 June 2015. And, by the way, I took my time out as suggested at the Arbcom case that was declined with no action, and got some very helpful feedback. Jytdog (talk) 05:51, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

I've put a few asterisks next to a diff that provides what you requested, Jytdog. (And times are UTC−7.) Here it is again, since you're having trouble finding it:

Jytdog was ***roundly critized by two longtime arbitrators for his extreme interpretations of our CoI policy and treatment of User:Snowded - none other than User:Risker, who is sick of him and User:Newyorkbrad.--Elvey 06:29, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

The harder you twist, the worse you look. The "sick of him" is especially ugly, as what Risker was sick of what Atsme and I going back and forth. What would be useful would be if you would promise to stop following me around, and stay away from COI issues, which you are making a mess of. Jytdog (talk) 08:06, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

No, Jytdog, that wasn't it at all. It was about you not me, and it's time for you to seriously self-analyze because your behavior is extremely problematic. Risker stated: "Enough, Jytdog; stop haranguing people. We're talking about half a dozen links, half of which are on pages that have already gone through community review and were deemed to be reasonable additions to the page. I don't accept this sort of thing on my talk page. You are not, under any circumstances, entitled to this level of personal information about anybody on Misplaced Pages, conflict of interest or no. Risker (talk) 1:23 pm, 6 July 2015, Monday (22 days ago) (UTC−5)" And with regards to you telling other editors to stop following you around - you need to self-analyze in that department, too. Atsme 06:03, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Proposal

OK, if there's a consensus that I need to

1. stop informing users who are told not to edit articles because they have a COI the truth - that the COI policy guideline only discourages users with a COI from editing but does not forbid it and
2. Stop informing users that if it applies to them, they must comply with the ToU clauses requiring disclosure of FCoI, then I will stop doing so.

If you think I should to stop doing that, or shouldn't, please indicate that below. But please also explain WHY I should or shouldn't stop doing so (optional). --Elvey 06:29, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

I have already indicated it above. I can tell you from long personal experience of handling emails at OTRS, and as an admin for nearly ten years now, that your advice to these users is profoundly unhelpful and the most likely outcome of their following your advice is that they will end up blocked or banned. Guy (Help!) 12:06, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

OK, so Guy is on record saying that users (this user at least) must not inform users who are told not to edit articles because they have a COI the truth - that the COI guideline only discourages users with a COI from editing but does not forbid it and users (this user at least) must not inform users that if it applies to them, they must comply with the ToU clauses requiring disclosure of FCoI. I hear you when you say that this true advice is nonetheless profoundly unhelpful. Anyone else agree? User:Jytdog? Say so here and I'll stop. --Elvey 16:09, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

That is mostly incorrect and incoherent, Elvey. I don't tell people not to edit articles; I ask them not to.

And there are lots of perspectives in the community about how the ToU applies to editors with a COI. Some interpret the ToU as applying only narrowly to say freelancers who are literally paid to edit or create WP articles, and would not apply the ToU to a company employee writing about their company of their own volition. Others interpret the application of the ToU more broadly. Also, the ToU only requires disclosure - it says nothing about editing WP articles. Your discussion is all confused, and you are trying to draw lines through that stew. It can't be done. So I cannot affirm or deny what you write.

I will say that your emphasizing what people with a COI can do (which is not clear in WP) instead of what they should do (which is clearly described in the COI guideline), is a destructive thing.

And what is profoundly unhelpful is your fiercely bringing your confused ideas and your beef with me (whatever that is) into ongoing discussions with editors who have or may have a COI. What I have asked for, is for you to say away from me, and stay out of COI issues. Will you agree to do those two things? Jytdog (talk) 16:24, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

I expect your behavior won't change, despite what Risker, Newyorkbrad and a dozen other folks have told you, so yes, I propose we avoid each other. I've offered the proposal in this section as a solution. Clearly there's lots of feedback for both of us here and on the huge thread on Risker's talk page on how we could improve our approach to COI issues. I intend to change my behavior accordingly, and you have said that you will too. Progress, I dare say? --Elvey 17:17, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

No progress. Your ideas still appear to be as confused as they were before and you have not acknowledged once here that you have made a hash of things in your pursuit of me. And again - you are following me around; if you stop doing that and let go, you will not find me in front of you anymore. I don't want to interact with you; the fixation is yours. And nothing new has been to said to me here about COI, nor have I said anything new. Everything you have brought here about me is stale and dealt with already. Please just agree to stay away from me and from COI issues. Jytdog (talk) 02:09, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Comment from sort of involved editor

Interesting. I agree with Jytdog that Elvey is cherry picking (although he is not incoherent) and I am also strongly of the opinion that Jytdog has the best interests of Misplaced Pages at heart. However I don't think Jytog has a moderate interpretation of COI. He has an assertive/bureaucratic approach to COI not a conversational one and acts (not just in my case) as if the guideline is policy. In the incident which gave rise to the above an article about a framework I created was subject to attack by a commercial rival. After a couple of rounds I (recognising my involvement) took the matter the Administrators Notice Board and an independent admin gave the offending editor an 'only warning' and the issue appeared resolved. Jytdog then arrived and the situation escalated for some time with multiple notices, postings, warnings and the like. In effect a guideline was acted on as if it was policy.

Based on that experience and monitoring other COI notices by Jytog and others, I've been meaning to write up a suggested guideline for the COI notice board when I get time. But given this has been brought up I think there are a few points that it would be useful to discuss:

1. Any editor getting involved in issuing a COI notice needs to make a very clear distinction between a 'paid' editor and one who has an interest in a page. There is a radical difference between getting the odd lecture or consultancy fee and being employed to directly edit Misplaced Pages.
2. The COI notices used tend to take a all editors with any COI however remote are all sinners' approach which can have a chilling effect. We could do with two different notices: One for those paid and the other for those with some interest. In fact templating should be discouraged in the latter case
3. It is clear that in respect of an academic framework the creator of that framework is also a subject matter expert. Any notice should make that clear. Asserting that an editor in this situation should not edit the article (per Jytdog) is not policy and should not be asserted as such
4. In general any editor taking a COI monitoring role should exercise care not to (i) inflame a conflict and (ii) not to come across as a bureaucratic enforcement agent. In this case Jytdog could have acknowledged that I had not taken part in an edit war, despite the posting of a false statement, but had brought in a neutral admin pretty quickly. I asked him if he thought I had made any edits against policy and got no reply. I'm an experienced enough editor not to have taken offence but I can think of a few academic colleagues, not familiar with some the 'guideline bureaucracy culture' in some parts of Misplaced Pages might have taken it differently.

So regardless of the cherry picking and/or Jytdog's accusation of incoherent rambling (not helpful) there is an issue for the community here. ----Snowded 06:43, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

This discussion belongs at WPT:COIN or WPT:COI not here. The issue is the editor's conduct towards each other, not the minutia of what the technical grounds of a policy are or are not. And we have a policy that no one really follows and there's little support for, then it's time for the policy to reflect reality not the other way around. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:26, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

And at some stage I will move a more elaborate version of it there, but the comment was relevant in so far as it reflects a wider problem that undiscriminating COI enforcement can create. As to your comments on policy and reality, the solution to that is not the current COI practice which needs more development - then it might be possible for it to become policy. ----Snowded 07:31, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Snowded Thanks for your remarks! The policy issues that came into play in our interaction were WP:NLT, WP:BATTLEGROUND, and WP:BLPCOI (BLP applies to talk pages too) all related to your real world disputes with the other editor, that the two of you carried into WP. I have only run across a few (maybe three) situations where two editors, each with such clear COIs of their own, also were in conflict in the RW and carried that into WP. That is not a common situation - a double COI in a way (your own, and the conflict with the other editor, and the same for the other editor) - and my interactions with editors with potential or already-declared conflicts generally do not get near so intense; those three policy issues generally don't come into them. Thanks again. Jytdog (talk) 09:40, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

I think you just further illustrate the point I was trying to make Jytdog. There was a RW conflict, what you failed to realise was that I had responded to the wikipedia conflict by pulling in a neutral admin to avoid escalation. You then arrived and created the conditions that allowed an unnecessary conflict to escalate. My points above about handling different types of COI was meant to try and prevent that sort of thing. It was made worse by your subsequent attempt (the Elvey extracts above) to challenge my right to even talk about the issue. Fortunately you were overruled by two former arbcom members. You continue to see COI as black and white rather than understanding the difference between paid editing and legitimate interest even subject matter expertise. Until you engage with the issue of the manner of your interactions you are going to end up in more conflicts. I can see that Elvey's behaviour is problematic, but so is yours. ----Snowded 12:08, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Snowded, this is where COI issues get so difficult - even now you still seem unclear on your own COI. You have academic claims of ownership of the concept, you founded a company based on the concept and serve as CSO of that company and make money lecturing about it etc (direct financial interests) and you have an external conflict with another editor who has a competing company. If only the first were at play, our interactions would have been very, very different. As I wrote above, having two editors in conflict here in WP each with their own COIs and in RW conflicts with each other is rare, and you still don't seem to recognize how locked-in to that conflict you were. Also, I never challenged your right to talk about it - I thought you should disclose that you had a COI in articles you write about, when you posted at WT:COI. Risker disagreed with how I expressed that. Also, my views on COI are laid out on my Userpage and what you will find there, is very far from black and white. Finally, I highly value subject matter expertise in WP, in line with the wider WP community. Our very valuable essay on WP:EXPERT welcomes experts, and warns experts not to use WP as a platform to promote their own ideas and publications. That is how I treat experts as well, when that is the only issue. Look at my interactions with User:Gjboyle on their talk page, for example. The picture you are painting of me is not accurate. It is very much shaped by our difficult interaction which I have acknowledged I could have handled better. Jytdog (talk) 14:18, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

I fully understand the exact nature of my interest in that article and the nature of the conflict. I go out of my way never to do a primary edit on either of the two articles I am associated with so the idea I am using wikipedia as a platform to promote my ideas is a nonsense. I have a framework which has revived multiple awards and citations therefore I have an interest in that article. I didn't found a company based on that concept, its one framework and our main focus is software. You've been told that but you don't listen. The fact that you refuse to see any different between that and a paid editor remains problematic. The fact that your response to any editor who disagrees with you on something is to tell them they don't understand their own position when you have at best surface knowledge is a problem. What you fail to see is that your attitude and method of engagement is a PART of the problem. So whatever your intentions you are creating problems. In the case it question it was your intervention that caused the conflict and you still can't see that. Now this is probably not going anywhere so having made the point I will leave it. I hope when I bring proposals on this to the COI notice board we can find a way to work together ----Snowded 14:40, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Snowded. I did take a break from COI work per the advice at arbcom, and I did get valuable feedback on my talk page. I have heard, that I can come across too stridently. I have heard that. And we will probably continue to disagree about what happened at Cynefin article; I do acknowledge that I got too harsh there and was part of the problem; that is why I apologized. And as I wrote at Risker's page, there is a difference between paid editing and other forms of COI. Paid editing is a subset of COI which in turn is a subset of advocacy, and it is advocacy that shows up in bad WP content. The ToU apply only to paid editing. So please don't misrepresent me. I also ask you to reconsider your !vote above. Whatever you think about me, Elvey's behavior has been very out of line. Jytdog (talk) 16:35, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

(Belated requests: Jytdog, stop attacking Snowded here. It's derailing the discussion. Snowded, don't feel the need to defend yourself here.) Jytdog says above, "I have heard, that I can come across too stridently. I have heard that." I am happy to hear that. However this diff and the interactions Snowded points to suggest the behavior hasn't improved. That recent threatening of a new user with an indefinite ban like that appears to be calculated to maximize Chilling Effects. That's why I got involved. But apparently, consensus is building (as shown by the support votes here) that those chilling effects are just dandy and I'm not to interfere. --Elvey 17:17, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

He isn't attacking we have a difference of opinion. I seriously suggest you just back off for a bit. At the moment a few of us think that this should just be left and there is no need for an interaction ban or a topic ban. I still think that but if you get into a Battleground mentality some sort of restriction will be needed. Per my suggestion on your talk page I think you should just stop for a bit and ping me or another editor if you something is wrong and we can look at it. ----Snowded 18:50, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

• Support ban from all COI-related discussions for Elvey. This is an issue of WP:CIVIL and WP:OUTING policy not COI. Elvey doesn't care about the COI policy, and just seems to use the COI policy as an excuse to lord it over people that have identified themselves in some way. If the dispute is about WP:COI policy, then the discussion belongs as that talk page not at ANI (or at WPT:COIN). Arguments about policy here aren't going to go anywhere. Here, we can discuss your individual ability to respond to potential COI issues and how in particular you act with each person you have concerns about. The problem is Elvey seems to use potential COI issues as an excuse to attack people. If you can't be civil with potential issues, then you'll be stopped to prevent extra work for the rest of us. This comment is less about COI issue and is based someone using their ability to know a person's identity to make a snide off-topic uncivil remark. There was no discussion about drug pricing, not even something that the representative brought up, just an excuse for Elvey for start a fight. This discussion is basically the same as WP:OUTING people to win fights. Frankly, Elvey is getting close to WP:OUTING issues and I think an outright indefinite block may be needed if the editor insists on just hunting around for fights. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:24, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

The issue User:Snowded raised and you seem to want to pretend doesn't exist, Ricky, is that of Jytdog's uncivil behavior toward me, Snowded and many others. Don't try to hand wave it away as off topic for ANI. Holy shit! There are 113 mentions of Jytdog's name on this page, and only half of them are in this ("HOUNDING by Elvey") section. Jytdog seems to live here.--Elvey 07:42, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

User:Snowded, I extracted the relevant comments from a single conversation. If that's cherry picking, then I picked cherries.

Yes, he acts as if it's policy that an editor must not edit an article if they have a CoI. There is no such policy. But that's not all. There's no such guideline EITHER! There's been a HUGE push to get the COI guideline changed to say that an editor must not edit an article if they have a CoI - there have been 4 huge, formal RfC campaigns. But they didn't succeed. I voted for 'em. But it's dishonest to go around deceiving people into believing CoI says what it'd say if one of those campaigns had been successful. so I don't do it.

1. Yes! I mistook one for the other recently, but unlike some users, I'm willing to recognize my mistakes.
2. Yes! I recently proposed a new template just for when a FCoI disclosure notice is not adequate.
3. Absolutely!
4. Yes, I tried to do that when I approached DocJames, and he was entirely cordial in response (though perhaps he's infallibly cordial). I still got attacked here for doing so. Refusing to address the concerns I've raised other than to dismiss them as "incoherent" is not in accord with policy, which requires that users respond when reasonable concerns are raised.

Thanks for piping up. --Elvey 07:26, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

No, I do not behave as though it is policy. Most people, when approached respectfully and informed about the COI guideline and its advice, are happy to comply. Which has been a really pleasant part of the doing the COI work. Even editors with a COI understand that if WP lacks integrity, the public will stop trusting it, and it will become useless for people to learn anything about whatever their external interest is. Jytdog (talk) 09:44, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

I genuinely don't think you intent to behave as if it was policy, but having looked at your interactions not only in my case but others I think you come across that way. Fast templating, assertive statements without qualification; threats of ANI referral; all create that impression. Your call if you want to listen to that or not. ----Snowded 12:15, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Snowded, I tell people I will bring them to ANI when they violate policy and I have some actual case to make here. I have not told anyone I would bring them to ANI for a COI issue per se. I never assert that someone actually has a COI unless they have already disclosed it. I do make assertions about behavior and editing that are always 100% supportable. I do ask questions. I do ask people to follow the COI guideline. I did get way too hot with you and with Atsme, for sure, for different reasons. I apologized to both of you. I did push too hard there. Jytdog (talk) 13:56, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

OK thanks for the acknowledgement it gives a way forward. I would suggest that saying that if someone doesn't do what you want you will take them to ANI and that you have a successful track record is probably an intervention of LAST resort. Better to explore understanding of what has happened and policy before jumping to the threat :-) ----Snowded 14:43, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Your sarcasm is not helping Snowded. Elvey, I'm not particularly concerned about any incivility towards you. I'm concerned about you attacking other editors out of the blue under the justification of "good intentions" to advocate for the COI policy. Again, I look at the Kaiser talk page post and see someone who seems out to find a fight to win. Everything else falls from that. Are you capable of offering a moderate incremental discussion (namely, if you think there's a problem (a) post a discussion on the article in question; (b) bring it up at COI; or (c) at the very least communicate to the people you accuse without presuming their guilt ahead of time) or is it just "let me do what I can or else I can do nothing at all"? WP:OUTING is a policy too and I've never felt that harassing individuals to protect us from some hypothetical COI is a long-term solution. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:25, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

This is some new definition of 'sarcasm' is it Ricky? If you misinterpret that phrase you might well have misinterpreted others. Maybe you could help by pointing me to the diffs that indicate a possible outing? ----Snowded 19:52, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Policy status

Elvey is right that the COI guideline is a guideline not a policy. It offers guidance for users on how to edit a subject in which they have a vested interest. He is wrong, however, to assert that ti does not have the force of policy. In fact, the COI guideline exists to help people avoid a global site ban from all WMF websites. The WMF Terms of Use say:

These Terms of Use prohibit engaging in deceptive activities, including misrepresentation of affiliation, impersonation, and fraud. As part of these obligations, you must disclose your employer, client, and affiliation with respect to any contribution for which you receive, or expect to receive, compensation.

— Wikimedia Foundation Terms of Use

Obviously there is scope for Elvey to wikilawyer about the precise meaning of compensation, but policies are interpreted using Clue, not weaselly lawyer speak. Anyone who edits in a way that may result in personal gain, or who edits Misplaced Pages on their employer's dollar (i.e. while at work) risks falling foul of this bright line rule.

The guideline has another very important purpose.

Any company or individual who edits Misplaced Pages with an undisclosed conflict of interest, risks substantial reputational damage. We have seen this already with the congressional editing scandal.

I wrote the boilerplate guidance to company representatives at OTRS, I also wrote the guidance to BLP subjects, and both of them make the same point: in order to protect your reputation and preserve your rights to edit, we strongly recommend that you follow the COI guidelines, which are designed to ensure transparency and facilitate engagement with the Misplaced Pages community to ensure rapid resolution of issues you might have with an article.

It's there for a reason. Elvey clearly does not understand that reason. Perhaps, having read this, he might. Guy (Help!) 12:15, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

So, in short, no, he still doesn't. I reiterate my support for a restriction. Guy (Help!) 22:07, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

I'd promise to stop asserting the foolishness you say I'm asserting, and so forth, but it would be very much like promising to stop beating my wife. You insist on grossly misrepresenting my position. What part of "I agree, users should follow the COI guidelines" do you not understand? That was and remains my stated position. Please stop mislabeling opinions that aren't mine. Shame on you for that. I'm a human being. Have you no shame?--Elvey 02:56, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose Any vote! based on gross misrepresentations of my opinion should not be counted.--Elvey 22:00, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Jytog, you said last month, "Risker expressed objections and I took feedback on board and have adjusted how I operate." so how have you done that. I see no change, specifically: Risker told Jytdog, "The ToU doesn't say what you think it says." at 10:02 am, 13 June 2015 (UTC−7) HOW has your understanding of what the ToU says changed?--Elvey 02:56, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

COI needs updating or clarification

I'd recommend ya'll go to WP:COI, as it is the core of the above disagreements. GoodDay (talk) 12:21, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

WP:COI is clear enough, the issue is Elvey's idiosyncratic interpretation of it. Guy (Help!) 12:34, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

The core of this ANI thread is Elvey's unacceptable behavior. Jytdog (talk) 16:27, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

If my interpretation is idiosyncratic, why is Risker getting on Jytdog's case about his misinterpretation? GoodDay is right - WP:COI is NOT clear enough. All these arguments are very strong evidence of that. If I'm wrong for telling people the truth about what WP:COI says, then surely that's damn good evidence that WP:COI needs to change to say that Paid advocates must not engage in direct article editing. Unfortunately attempts to change it to say that have failed, and attempts to get ArbCom to help (by others; I haven't tried) have fallen flat. Right, User:Coretheapple? --Elvey 17:17, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Again, not accurate. It is not clear what Risker's current stance on me is. Risker expressed objections and I took feedback on board and have adjusted how I operate. Please stop bringing up stale issues. And your confusion and your hounding and disruptive behavior, does not mean there is a problem with the guideline. Jytdog (talk) 17:32, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

WP:COI should be put up for WP:MFD. Writing for Misplaced Pages is analogous to how scientists contribute to review articles, you must base everything on reliable sources, you cannot do original research. Your peers will check if what you write is up to standards. Now, in some less reliable discipines like e.g. medical science, you do have a problem with COI, authors are required to declare them in articles. But Misplaced Pages is much more like a hard science discipline like physics than a softer science like medicine. Count Iblis (talk) 22:22, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

"WP:COI should be put up for WP:MFD." Poppycock. If anything it should be stiffened and made policy. BMK (talk) 22:34, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Which would mean that anonymous editing would have to end, editors would have to submit their CV's the WMF as part of a formal application to become editor here. Admins would have access to the submitted documents to check if the editors are sticking to the COI policy. Count Iblis (talk) 23:02, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Actually, there's no correlation between "stiffening COI" and IP editing having to end, that's pretty much a straw man, nor do any of the other dire results you predict follow in any logical way from the premise - it's all pretty much hyperbole, innit?. However I will say frankly that the project would be much better off if IP editing had been ended many years ago, since its downside far out weighs its upside, and it's mostly still here for political/philosophical reasons that have no relevance to the reality of life in the trenches. BMK (talk) 01:51, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Personally I would end IP editing as well for similar reasons. It means people can too readily hide an interest. But it is also the case that in many articles enforcement of the COI as interpreted by most of its enthusiasts would mean that subject matter experts were confined to requesting changes to articles from patrolling COI bureaucrats which would be equally disruptive. Banning ALL paid editing, restricting University projects to drafts that would then be reviewed would all be more helpful activities. Key is to stop the one size fits all COI approach currently being practiced and advocated. ----Snowded 05:26, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Community sanction proposal - Community Patience Exhausted by Elvey

Current results 14:2 14:3* 15:3* in favor of the proposal. We have had ~48 hrs and sufficient participation and supermajority. This is ripe for uninvolved administrator close and enaction. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 21:17, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Proposed:

Elvey has exhausted the patience of the community and is topic banned from COI, broadly construed. This sanction may be appealed to the community in six months.

• Support as proposer. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 06:40, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
• The discussion above shows six supports for a topic ban of various durations (Johnuniq + Alexbrn + Guy (JzG) + Ricky81682 + Tryptofish + SMcCandlish) and two opposes (Snowded + GoodDay). Johnuniq (talk) 07:55, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

• More lies misrepresentation. (So what else is new?) Collect voted oppose too. With my !vote, it's 4:6. Way to use dirty campaign tricks, Johnuniq. Too bad there's no voting fraud hotline to call. --Elvey 22:00, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

• My apologies for the accidental omission of Collect who opposed sanctions above (and below). The omission of Jytdog and Elvey was intentional as it did not seem useful to include the two protagonists. I listed the names specifically so others could check. Johnuniq (talk) 06:33, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

• Yes, but for it to properly stick absent community or arbcom sanctions we really need a formal proposal. Admins can't just say "I ban you", the community can... Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 08:44, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

• Support It is time to move on. If Elvey won't drop the stick on their own perhaps we should encourage them.--Adam in MO Talk 11:54, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support topic ban per my comments above - my view is strengthened, in fact, because Elvey has shown no undertanding of why his intervention was so bad, and has instead mounted a belligerent defence of himself in which it seems only others are held to be at fault. Alexbrn (talk) 14:08, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support After reading through all of this I see no other alternative. Dbrodbeck (talk) 14:35, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support, per what I said above. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:15, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose Any vote! based on gross misrepresentations of my opinion should not be counted. I shouldn't be banned for informing users of what WP:CoI says, which what this is really about. That's the behavior this is intended to prevent. --Elvey 22:00, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support as the OP. Elvey's behavior is only getting more disruptive as this thread continues. Jytdog (talk) 22:06, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose Draconian measures simply do not work, and the evidence that they are needed in the case at hand is weak. If the stick is being dropped, let it stay on the ground. Collect (talk) 22:13, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
  • I don't see anything Draconian about a 6-month ban from a single noticeboard. Nor do I see a dropping of the stick with respect to the added comments about "dirty campaign tricks". --Tryptofish (talk) 22:53, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
    • What am I supposed to do? I'm supposed to be OK with the misrepresentation of the vote, the misrepresentation of my views, the double jeopardy, etc? I have to be OK with those things or I'm not dropping the stick? Seriously? You would be totally OK with it if a vote to ban you was mis-counted against you, your views were misrepresented, and when you asked that they be presented accurately, your request was blown off? Sorry, but I'm a human being. I have feelings. Despite all the misrepresentation, I haven't cursed anyone out. I don't see you accepting my request for someone work with me. --Elvey 23:22, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Tryptofish to be clear, the proposal is a topic ban from "COI, broadly construed" - so not just the COIN noticeboard.Jytdog (talk) 00:04, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, that's right. But, as is becoming ever-increasingly clear, it is far from Draconian, in context. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:53, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

For the record, all the votes above were made before Johnuniq's false summary of the vote was noted or corrected. Also, there was just a !vote on this; which shows a 6:4 result. Holding another one because there was no consensus because User:Collect, User:Snowded User:GoodDay and User:Elvey opposed is unfair and a policy violation.--Elvey 22:00, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

I want to note that I modified Elvey's formatting to make this section more manageable, but Elvey's reference to votes above refers to votes dated prior to 22:00, 28 July 2015 (UTC), so anything added subsequently to that time is after the response to the summary. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:53, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

I agreed to drop the stick, and have done so. I did:

1. stop informing users who are told not to edit articles because they have a COI the truth - that the COI policy guideline only discourages users with a COI from editing but does not forbid it and
2. Stop informing users that if it applies to them, they must comply with the ToU clauses requiring disclosure of FCoI.

The quality of the reasoning in the !vote so far is interesting. There isn't any. Proposals must be !votes. So I'd appreciate a succinct description from anyone voting support of what I've supposedly done wrong that doesn't (unlike much of what's come so far) grossly misrepresent what I've done, or ignore my defenses, or throw out [[WP: links without explanation and evidence. You want to ban me cuz I "exhausted the patience of the community"? What am I supposed to learn from that? Cuz right now, what I'm hearing is that the policies and guidelines be damnd; you can respect them and still get banned. Anyone willing to work with me to understand what I've done wrong, please say so here. Someone I can run some edits by before making them could work well. Johnuniq provided a reason for his !vote. (It was based on blatantly false evidence, yes, but at least he offered a non-circular reason, which no one else has.)

I hadn't read of any of Jytdogs promises to change his behavior regarding COI topics, and so I regret how I responded when I saw him misrepresenting policy again. --Elvey 22:00, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

• Support This User talk:Johnuniq#Deliberately introducing incorrect information into an ANI discussion is not dropping the stick and reinforces the concerns expressed throughout this thread.MarnetteD|Talk 23:08, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
  • What am I supposed to do? I'm supposed to be OK with the misrepresentation of the vote, the misrepresentation of my views, the double jeopardy, etc? I have to be OK with those things or I'm not dropping the stick? Seriously? You would be totally OK with it if a vote to ban you was mis-counted against you, your views were misrepresented, and when you asked that they be presented accurately, your request was blown off? Sorry, but I'm a human being. I have feelings. Despite all the misrepresentation, I haven't cursed anyone out. --Elvey 23:22, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
    • Try not to yourself blocked entirely? That's why dropping the stick is about. There's more to harassment and disruption than cursing people. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 00:10, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
      • I asked what to do, not what to not do. I'm supposed to be OK with the misrepresentation of the vote, the misrepresentation of my views, the double jeopardy, etc? I have to be OK with those things or I'm not dropping the stick? You didn't answer that question. Please do. And see section below--Elvey 00:17, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support per my comments above. --Hobbes Goodyear (talk) 23:41, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support a ban on all COI-related commentary not just the board, as I said above. The antics go way beyond disruption at the noticeboard. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 00:10, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
  • For the record, I see that as a !vote about #6, because that's what you refer to, and hence a !vote in favor of Jytdog misrepresenting WP:CoI and against me pointing out what it actually is. I already agreed to stop doing that. So you're apparently voting for punitive measures. --Elvey 00:32, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
    • No, I'm voting that based on your inability to conduct yourself when there are potential COI issues. Your false dichotomy routine of either I support your antics or I support Jytdog's views on COI policy don't work on me. Let the closer determine how my vote goes, not your personal opinion. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 01:01, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support ban as stated by Ricky81682 and per MarnetteD. Having read through this, really quite lengthy, thread, it's obvious that Elvey just doesn't know when to stop. The explosion at Johnuniq for an easy to make miscount and the subsequent histrionics at GWH's talk page is evidence enough that Elvey needs to take a step back, whether it be voluntary or imposed. Blackmane (talk) 03:08, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support as proposed. I have, i think, read the whole of this, and followed it down several rabbit holes, and i cannot see any further editing by Elvey on the topic of COI ending well until he takes the time to understand all that he has been told. Honestly, i feel he's lucky to be getting off this lightly, as some of his actions (to my mind) clearly reach extremely poor levels and he's been flirting with a longer-term block. Cheers, Lindsay 09:49, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support- I don't really see any alternative at this point. This user simply won't drop the stick on his own and also seems to have suffered a near-fatal overdose of IDHT. Reyk _YO! 10:40, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support: I see all kinds of red flags in Elvey's combative, "everyone else is at fault" mentality here; even after a warning it took a block to force them to stop disrupting this thread with their repetitive wikilawyering about vote process. Elvey's counter-proposed solution is more "you guys are wrong but I'll go along with it" rather than owning that they are the one that is wrong, as many users above have strained to explain. None of that points to a user who will drop the stick, so I fully support a topic ban from the subject of COI which they don't understand/refuse to accept. Furthermore, clear evidence has been presented that Elvey followed Jytdog to several articles expressly to WP:HOUND them, so I support the suggested one-way interaction ban as well. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 15:02, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support. My patience is certainly exhausted, thanks to WP:IDHT here in addition to issues already noted above. Guy (Help!) 15:12, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose but with qualification. I can't see any real progress here and while I think there are wider issues around COI I can see that Elvey is his/her own worse enemy. If Elvey will accept a voluntary withdrawal from direct editing but with the right to raise concerns with a third party editor for review then that might work. If that is not OK then I would support a three month topic ban ----Snowded 21:07, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support Clearly there are broader issues here with regard to Elvey becoming needlessly combative and retreating into IDHT stances in any area where their behaviour has come into question, but what concerns me most are the original (and to my mind, substantiated) claims of hounding which set the discussion off in the first place. I'm sure plenty of people can relate to Elvey's no-love-lost disposition towards pharmaceutical reps, but Misplaced Pages is not meant to be a tool for editor's personal political crusades. These comments were clearly off-topic, hostile, and in no way involved with or relevant to the improvement of the project. I echo the sentiments of Ricky81682 and others that Elvey's has used COI and other policy principles as cover to harass or otherwise adopt needlessly adversarial and disruptive behaviours with regard to other editors on issues to which said policies do not really apply. And given their resistance to accepting a clear consensus of their fellow editors here that this and other of their behaviours are inappropriate, I think we can trust they will not re-examine their behaviour with regard to the relevant policies of their own accord, so they ought to be removed from the areas in which they cannot conform to community expectations. Frankly, I'd have proposed an indefinite TBAN with a chance to appeal after a year, or even a block, but we can hope the current measure will suffice. Snow 08:25, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Vote results

Proposal evaluations must not be mere !vote counts, but rather argument evaluations. So I asked for a succinct description from anyone voting support of what I've supposedly done wrong that doesn't (unlike much of what's come so far) grossly misrepresent what I've done, or ignore my defenses, or throw out [[WP: links without explanation and evidence. You want to ban me just the same, do so based on something I can learn from. Cuz right now, what I'm hearing is that the policies and guidelines be damned; you can respect them and still get banned. Anyone willing to work with me to understand what I've done wrong, please say so here. Someone I can run some edits by before making them could work well. Johnuniq provided such a reason for his !vote. (It was based on blatantly false evidence, yes, but at least he offered a non-circular reason, which no one else has.)

I might as well shut up now and take my beating or retire after some shady user closes this double jeopardy !vote, and not count the votes of User:Snowded or User: GoodDay, or make note of the changes I agreed to. I've said enough. Not going to change any minds no matter how valid my defence. --Elvey 00:17, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Simple question which you will sidestep I'm sure but how is this in any way useful in terms of fighting COI on Misplaced Pages? It looks like nothing more than you figuring out someone's COI and then using it to attack the entity you want to attack. You aren't Perry Masoning anyone there, just going for a cheap shot. Your goal seems to be finding problems with editors (COI being the convenient tool of the moment but civility is always a backup) so that you can lord it over people which is more destructive than any COI issues we could ever have. It's a grudge mentality that's the problem not your personal beliefs about policy. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 01:01, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Ok, somewhere in the middle of User talk:Elvey (Elvey refactored the page but these are the relevant edits) is a response to this. Even though this was brought up at the start of this I think, the response there reiterates my concern that Elvey treats COI issues as a tool to take advantage of, which is far from our purposes. We are not WikiNews and we are not looking for another Edward R. Murrow. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 05:24, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Elvey blocked for 31 hrs for ongoing disruption of this ANI discussion

I warned Elvey on his talk page ( ) to stop disrupting the ANI discussion regarding his sanction as he had been. He wall-of-texted my talk page in response (acceptable) and continued here (not acceptable). I have blocked him for 31 hrs. I am concerned about a wider NOTHERE question after this string of behavior. I am not doing anything more than the 31 hr block, reporting that here, and noting my wider concern. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 01:14, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

We're at a WP:ROPE crossroads here. Let's see where this goes. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:24, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Disruptive editing: 188.78.134.205

• 188.78.134.205 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has engaged in persistent edit warring, disruptive editing, outright vandalism in at least one article (Corruption in Navarre), and hounding over me. The IP editor has mutated from previous 188.78.131.18 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (previously temporarily blocked for vandalism) and 188.78.129.62 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Their focus is on tracking my latest edits (check IP's contributions), as well as the Basque topic (my main topic of interest, as stated on my Userpage).

S/he shows single purpose editing, trying to add their ideas wherever s/he sees fit, but sometimes seems to be disruption for the sake of disruption (a way of wasting my time), like here. Repeats continually the need for references but does not add them, like here, or startling claims. They removed fully valid verification when they did not like it. Despite their eventual participation in discussion, shows no consensus building, and it is plagued with accusatory and incoherent language, sticking to their point and failing to listen to the arguments provided by other editors.

The pages affected have been protected by bot, but as it happens that has established the IP's reverted last version in a number of articles while they were being discussed on the talk page, which appears to me a kind of reward for disruption, since protection affects all editors alike. The latest IP editor will feel free to act again on August 3, when the ban to edit those articles is lifted. I request a clear indefinite block on 188.78.134.205 and, if possible, its sockpuppets, to avoid further disruption to the WP. Iñaki LL (talk) 19:48, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

(Remarks) I think that it is Iñaki who has an agenda and adds Basque origins (such in the case of Banu Qasi which I reverted) without references. By the way, I am not the IP. The IP's reversions were correct. --Maragm (talk) 20:07, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

No references?

Basque kingdom of Navarre;

• Possessing the Land: Aragon's Expansion Into Islam's Ebro Frontier Under Alfonso the Battler:1104-1134, by Clay Stalls, page 12.
• The Settlement of Disputes in Early Medieval Europe, by Wendy Davies, Paul Fouracre, Cambridge University Press, page 97.
• World Monarchies and Dynasties, by John Middleton, page 95.
• Spain: An Oxford Archaeological Guide, by Roger Collins, page 31.

Inigo Arista a Basque;

• Muslim Spain and Portugal: A Political History of Al-Andalus, by Hugh Kennedy, page 61.
• R.L. Trask, The History of Basque, page 14, "In about 824 a certain Inigo Arista in turn otherthrew the last trappings of Frankish hegemony and founded the tiny Kingdom of Pamplona. Inigo, like most of the population of Navarre was a Basque."
• A History of Medieval Spain, by Joseph F. O'Callaghan, page 107.
• Conquerors, Brides, and Concubines, by Simon Barton, page 26.
• The Encyclopaedia Britannica: A Dictionary of Arts, Sciences, Volume 25, page 541.

According to this source, Basque was the "lingua navarorrum", but not used in a written or official capacity;

• Basque Sociolinguistics: Language, Society, and Culture, by Estibaliz Amorrortu, page 14.

Maybe the IP and Maragm should do a better job of researching, instead of making accusations based on their own personal opinions. I will stick with the facts I have listed above. --Kansas Bear (talk) 22:50, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Listen, IP 188.78.134.205 (or should I say Maragm?), I did not bring the issue here about references, whatever you have add them on the right place and the right statement, refuting the main statement, that the king was a Basque, period. The problem is as follows, not only did Kansas Bear add loads of references on the talk page, but I added myself one fully valid inline citation and you replaced it gratuitously. You are wasting my time and that of other good editors big time, contribute what you need to contribute, and do it as smooth as possible. You engaged in blatant vandalism in Corruption in Navarre, adding an incongruous explanation line, since you removed loads of content you did not like. I demand a rapid executive measure, I do not have time to engage in a long discussion that will last days, since that is the disruptive editor's aim, to cause frustration. I demand an executive measure over an IP tracking disruptively my edits, non-responsive to anything, and not collaborating. Maybe the vandalism resource is the right place, the IP has been warned by now. Iñaki LL (talk) 06:57, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

The only thing was to add this remark on the talk page of the Banu Qasi article agreeing with the IP's reversion. I can assure you I am not the IP and if you have any doubts go to a checkuser. --Maragm (talk) 17:51, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

I find terribly shameful this way of ¿reasoning? consisting of accusing others of being the same person, in order to disguise the lack of true reasons about the content of the disputed articles.

If anybody want an administrator to check my connection data to verify that I am not another user different than me, please, go on. I do not have anything to hide. The truth is this conflict is, as Maragm said, that the user Iñaki LL has an obvious strategy of imposing slanted labels and biased or false claims focused on the consideration of Navarre as a "Basque" territory. Sometimes he does it by imposing a statement without any references. For example in the article 1833 Territorial Division of Spain, in which he is obsessed with impossing the biased expression "Basque Districts" (regarding Navarre as one of them) in spite of the fact that there is no academic usage of it (as he knows perfectly, because he has been unable to give any reference). Sometimes he does by adding politically slanted labels to historical figures and trying to support that with references of books published 50 years ago or whose verification can't be done by internet. For example in the case of Iñigo Arista the vast majority of the Navarrese historians agree about the absence of evidences about the filiation of Íñigo Arista, and significantly (as I remarked in the Talk Page of the article by giving the due reference) the Gran Enciclopedia Navarra (a well known and prestigious source of information comparable to the British Encyclopaedia whose content is accessible on line) states this fact, and tens of references of books and scientific papers (much more recent that the given by Iñaki LL) regard the Kingdom of Navarre as Navarrese/European/Hispanic kingdom and not as a "Basque Kingdom", moreover no king of Navarre entitle himself "king of Basques", never). In the case of the article Corruption in Navarre everybody can realize by reading only a few lines that the writing is clearly biased and is utterly aimed to convince that a particular political party is "corrupt" by regarding irrationally as "corruption" several events that they have nothing to do with corruption like a problem with a catering company (!).188.78.134.205 (talk) 22:15, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Your effort to add references, Kansas, is highly appreciated, no matter what the actual target issue is. As for Maragm, I did not report 188.78.134.205 for sock-puppetry, although there are at least 3 different IPs with strings pulled by the same master. You speak like 188.78.134.205, your accusatory style lacking in detail is just as coarse and incongruous as that of the IP, well, you do not let me many chances (WP:DUCK). You intervened here just about 20 minutes after I posted the report template on 188.78.134.205's page, you claimed you had reverted me in article Banu Qasi, well, a simple check of the diffs tells it all here and here (helloooo). By the way, I made clear my views on this issue in the Talk:Banu Qasi, but both Maragm and her (her?) alter ego 188.78.134.205 have shown a total inability to engage in consensus and have kept pushing ("it is utterly illegitimate stating that the Banu Qasi were 'Basque'", it seems that for the IP it is about a moral issue...). I won't dwell on content issues or incongruous talking, as attempted by 188.78.134.205 in the last intervention above ("books published 50 years ago", don't make me laugh, you were attempting to justify your position with an 800 AD propagandistic reference!) since this is about someone throwing out of the window the WP guidelines and policies all in a row, as well as WP:HOUND. Iñaki LL (talk) 22:49, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

You say: "...your accusatory style lacking in detail is just as coarse and incongruous..:". I have not accused anyone of anything. And yes, you're right, I did not revert in the Banu Qasi article and just added a remark and a source, sorry for the despiste. Lorenzo Jiménez has written not just the article I mentioned but a book, recently published on the Banu Qasi which I don't have with me because I'm on vacation, but I have many other sources that I use to reference articles and none mention the supposed Basque origin of the Banu Qasi. And as far as I remember, I have not intervened in any of the other articles you mentioned, just the Banu Qasi and I always log in with my nick and I never edit under an IP, so stop making the accusation that I am that IP with whom I just happened to agree on the Banu Qasi issue and added a reference. Agur ba. --Maragm (talk) 07:49, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

As I explained on my talk page, I stick to evidence shown in all editors' records, you Maragm engaged yourself in the dispute. Instead of adding accuracy and detailed evidence, you have come to say that I want to add Basque origins and "agenda" and stuff, nothing said on 188.78.134.205's irregular behaviour. In fact, if you get down to detail, you will read that I may agree that it is not certain that Cassius was Basque (nor that he was Visigoth), but all the same... In fact, I did not add that information myself originaly. 188.78.134.205 not only added its own rejection of just about anything Basque, but added generic information on the religion of the Banu Qasi lineage ("Christian", Syrian Christian perhaps??? Did not the article mention that they were muwallads?, sic), and other ambiguous information (Pyrenean...), all without references. Well, no wonder, since the IP's drive is to cause disruption and frustration. Iñaki LL (talk) 13:24, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

You'd better use all the time that you're spending in making false accusations, in providing references about those inexistent "Basque districts" (until now you have been utterly unable to do), in showing the references supporting that a problem with a catering company is "corruption" (you have been also unable to) or in explaining the reason why the Gran Enciclopedia Navarra (the most important on line source of information about Navarre) is not a valid source of information for Misplaced Pages.The truth about Iñigo Arista is almost the same about the Banu Qasi. The filiation of this historical figure is unknown (that is what Gran Enciclopedia Navarra confirms). There is no notice about his birth (date and place). The only medieval source of information about the lineage Arista states that the familiar origins of Iñigo Arista were in the French Central Pyrenees (Bigorra). But even that is not enough in order to state that Iñigo Arista was bigorran, cause this only source of information is dated two centuries later, and so the only certainty about this matter is that his origin remain unknown (as the proper Misplaced Pages article explains). Trying to report to different administrators or in different days (as you do each time that an administrator decline to validate your desire of imposition of unreferenced content or introduction of biased labels), or trying to undermine the credibility of a user by sprinkling accusations of being the same person (as you are doing in order to disguise your lack of reasons about the true content of the dispute or your argumentative impotence against Maragm) are just additional evidences of the questionable aims of your behaviour. Please, don´t confuse knowledgement with political opinions. There are many things in the world and many aspects of the reality that don´t match with my preferences, but I have a minimum of honesty in order to not to try to impose them on knowledgement. Think again, please. 95.20.249.28 (talk) 16:03, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

And, obviously, I carry on being the same IP user, now identified 95.20.249.28 and not with 188.78.134.205 because my device works with dynamic IP. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.20.249.28 (talk) 16:11, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Again, I must agree with the IP. The artice on Íñigo Arista is protected now and contains your version, again, A Basque origin, as you had erroneously claimed on the Banu Qasi. Yes, you definitely have an agenda and it is you behavor that is irregular. Now go to a checkuser to confirm if I and the IP are the same person. I guess you can't take any criticism and lash out when contradicted, accusing anybody who disagrees with being a sockpuppet or whatever. --Maragm (talk) 21:15, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

O, this is funny, so you were "over and out", and here you come again, Maragm, with personal sweeping accusations, well done for your contribution to the WP! Listen, if you are on holidays as you said, and you feel you got involved inadvertently, get a break and chill out, instead of adding fire as you are doing now. Again, you, like the IP, are not sticking to evidence but ad hominem sweeping arguments, and you are talking yourself out.

As I said, there is not talk on content, I accept whatever provided by the references (let's move on... even the "Gran" Enciclopedia, a whitewashing resource sponsored and managed by the anti-Basque, now outgoing, sectarian government of Navarre), over. That is just a diversion of the disruptive editing, POV pushing, WP:HOUND, removal of content and references and a conspicuous do-as-I-say attitude. My work on the WP is my best support, and everything is there, so I have no worries. Sorry, I have to say, what worries me is the absence of the administrator, this is a straightforward case as regards WP guidelines and policies.

Labelling the Gran Enciclopedia Navarra as a "whitewashing resource sponsored and managed by the anti-Basque sectarian government of Navarre" is a major evidence about that your behaviour in Misplaced Pages is not related with any sincere desire of adding knowledgement to this project. Take notice: The Gran Enciclopedia Navarra is a prestigious academic work published for the first time in 1990 (when the government that you label "anti-Basque" it was not even in power).95.20.246.45 (talk) 15:54, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

As for the IP, o, at last a speck of honesty. It is funny that you say I switch administrators, well I have not. I used once and you were temporarily blocked for disruptive editing and vandalism. In contrast, despite being an experienced WP editor if your knowledge of the WP is anything to go by, you avoid warnings and blocks behind different IPs, so that they can not be held against you, but well, now we know at least that there is master behind a number of IPs. Bye Iñaki LL (talk) 06:10, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

First, Maragm and I were "the same person". Now, behind us is an evil "master". What is the next that you are going to try in order to disguise that you are unable to explain why a problem with a catering company is corruption and to give references about the usage of those inexistent "Basque districts"??95.20.246.45 (talk) 15:54, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

I won't comment on the manipulative rhetoric above. The same POV-pushing, the-worse-the-better Battleground mentality. I add a link to Talk:Navarre, as added by Kansas below for further clues. Iñaki LL (talk) 05:12, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Amazing that so much can be placed on the Enciclopedia Navarra when it makes no mention of Inigo's ethnicity! And yet, in contrast, the IP can categorically ignore sources he does not like! IF any of the sources I have posted on the Talk:Kingdom of Navarre page are "biased" then the IP needs to "put up or shut up" and take those sources to the Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard!
Also, just where is the Basque article in the Gran Enciclopedia Navarra? Link? --Kansas Bear (talk) 17:06, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

User:Xenophrenic's WP:TE at Talk:Ward Churchill academic misconduct investigation‎

I call to your attention what I believe to be prima facie violations of WP:TE#One who ignores or refuses to answer ... by Xenophrenic at Talk:Ward_Churchill_academic_misconduct_investigation. Examples of these WP:TE violations:

1) In response to: "Justify including in the article information from a source that the source believes is absurd or manifestly untrue." You have not answered the question. How do you justify you edit?" Xenophrenic continues to not address the issue of "absurd or manifestly untrue".

2) There are a number of good-faith questions that I have asked that Xenophrenic has simply ignored; see the talk page. If you'd like I'll list them; let me know if you'd like me to do so. Deicas (talk) 21:33, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Observation from an uninvolved editor. I noticed that Xenophrenic responded to several issues that you raised.

• First, if you are going to ask a question, do so. That involves an interrogatory, not a declarative sentence.
• Second, your statements seem to be directive, as in "Justify," "hereinbelow provide," etc.
• Third, you are not entitled to an answer.
• Fourth, this appears to be WP:WIKILAWYERING.
• Finally, you may want to work on your communication style. GregJackP Boomer! 22:24, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

User:GregJackP: just above you assert "Third, you are not entitled to an answer." How do you reconcile this assertion with the Misplaced Pages policy described in WP:TE#One who ignores or refuses to answer ...?

Deicas (talk) 00:40, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

WP:TE is not a policy, it is an essay. You are not entitled to an answer. No one elected you wikigod, nor is there any policy that states you are entitled to an answer. GregJackP Boomer! 00:54, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

User:GregJackP: I call to your attention, from WP:TE, "Failure to cooperate with such simple requests may be interpreted as evidence of a bad faith effort to exasperate or waste the time of other editors.". Note, above, "How do you justify you edit?". How do you explain the failure of Xenophrenic to answer this question, which lies at the crux of the disputed edit, without seeing a violation of Misplaced Pages:Assume_good_faith obligation?

Deicas (talk) 01:18, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

User:GregJackP: with regard to your comments above "Fourth, this appears to be WP:WIKILAWYERING" and "No one elected you wikigod". Would you please either strike these comments out or justify your violation of your Misplaced Pages:Assume_good_faith obligation?

Deicas (talk) 01:18, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

WP:TE is an essay. It is not a rule, nor a policy, nor a guideline. It is what someone thinks. No more, no less.

The cites you are making above are perfect examples of wikilawyering. After you requested I strike, I looked at your edit history, and since 2004 in your 450 edits, you have been repeatedly warned about wikilawyering. It's a pattern of behavior, and you are exhibiting it here, again. Please stop doing so.

In any event, you are not entitled to an answer from Xenophrenic, nor to a further answer from me. GregJackP Boomer! 01:42, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

User:GregJackP: With regard to your "WP:TE is an essay. It is not a rule, nor a policy, nor a guideline", above: in retrospect I should have cited WP:DR which *is* policy. Specificity: "To help other editors understand the reasoning behind your edits, always explain your changes in the edit summary. If an edit is too complex to explain in an edit summary, or the change is contentious, add a section to the talk page that explains your rationale. Be prepared to justify your changes to other editors on the talk page". I have difficulty reconciling this policy with your statement above: "... you are not entitled to an answer from Xenophrenic ..."? Would you please expand on your reasoning?

Deicas (talk) 05:39, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Nope. GregJackP Boomer! 05:45, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

This seems to be a routine content dispute, acerbated by: (a) a very minor edit war or slightly aggressive BRD-ing, and (b) some difficulty reconciling communications styles between Xenophrenic, who describes themselves as "shy" about talk page comments, and Deicas, who is fairly voluminous, pointed, and slightly odd in their talk page discussion style. All in good faith no doubt, each of us has our unique voice, it just looks like people need a little extra effort to try to communicate. It's only going to become a behavior issue if people make it one, otherwise that's what talk pages are for. Although perhaps a content issue there are some significant BLP and NPOV policy issues here because we have a prominent professor who claimed (falsely it appears) to be Native American and who was fired for academic misconduct, promoting or making up untrue but widely believed historical claims that American military committed acts of genocide by spreading small pox blankets among indigenous villages. The professor is still alive and still has defenders, so this topic can get quite heated. - Wikidemon (talk) 06:42, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Even the above statement can raise discussion. I'm no fan of the wannabe, but I would state that he was "promoting or making up untrue using unsupported, but widely believed historical claims. . . ." There are some others who have published along the same lines, and it is a matter of faith among the tribes (see Denzin). I don't think it is an ANI issue. GregJackP Boomer! 07:10, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Well, that's the weirdness of Misplaced Pages's PC policies, rule #1 about fight club history is that you can't discuss fight club history. Some person, rightly upset over historical events that could justifiably be called a genocide, starts making stuff up including that he is a descendent of the victims. Meanwhile, we editors have to tiptoe around the facts because of obscure policies that affect even our ability to discuss policy amongst ourselves. So we cannot describe people as frauds or impostors, even in the rather interesting space of — what do they call this now? — trans-racialism. - Wikidemon (talk) 07:54, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

No, I agree with you that he is a fraud who took an honorary membership and went way too far with it. The problem is that there was genocide of the American Indian, but since that was one of his research areas, any proposal or position that he ever advocated is immediately attacked without ever going to the actual merits of the argument. GregJackP Boomer! 16:00, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

User:Xenophrenic has repeatedly included information in the article deriving from Guenter Lewy's writing (ie. ) that Lewy describes as non-creditable (coming from a source that "manifestly does not suggest that the U.S. Army distributed infected blankets"). So I ask User:Xenophrenic why he's including information from Lewy that Lewy believes is not creditable. And I get no explanation. And I ask variations of the question. And spend more time. And I get no explanation. If I had a putative explanation for including non-creditable information then the content dispute is addressable. Absent an explanation then there is no content inclusion reason to discuss. Hence, I view this as a behavioural question. If as, Wikidemon suggests, this should be viewed as a NPOV issue then I'll happily agree.

Deicas (talk) 12:17, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Asked and answered above. GregJackP Boomer! 16:00, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Another way, resolving this issue as a content dispute, would be for user:Xenophrenic to provide a citation to Stiffarm and Lane for the claim that Lewy finds so objectionable. Then the portion of the article under dispute would look something like: "Stiffarm and Lane assert X . Lewy views X as not plausible because ... ".

Deicas (talk) 12:33, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

That's content, not behavior. GregJackP Boomer! 16:00, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Indeed, it is content, not behavior, but it may be a way to end the current dispute. Isn't that what we're striving for?

Deicas (talk) 17:10, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

User:Xenophrenic just removed a portion of text with citations ] providing as the reason for the removal "(continued removal of Lewy assertion pending Talk resolution, as half of it was left in the article.)". The issue in dispute on the talk page is one, of multiple, uses of one of the deleted citations? How is this not disruptive editing? Deicas (talk) 17:03, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Would someone *please* persuade User:Xenophrenic to stop his disruptive editing? Please?

Deicas (talk) 19:18, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Is anyone interested in a proposal that, if accepted, would resolve the behavior issue, close this AN/I, and roll the dispute back to a content dispute?

Deicas (talk) 04:24, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Stalled AN/I: User:Xenophrenic's WP:TE at Talk:Ward Churchill academic misconduct investigation

Would an uninvolved administrator(s) please look at User:Xenophrenic's WP:TE at Talk:Ward Churchill academic misconduct investigation? This AN/I seems to be making no progress. Note that the article on which the disputed behaviour is occurring is flagged as "The subject of this article is controversial". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Deicas (talk • contribs) 06:59, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

It's not quite a stall but things seem to be gong in the wrong direction. Not a full scale edit war, but both editors in question are now at about 2RR in the last 24 hours or so. - Wikidemon (talk) 08:22, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

I second User:Wikidemon's suggestion to "Please keep discussion in one place". I suggest that the disputed article section be rolled-back to the start of this dispute and protected until this AN/I is resolved.

Deicas (talk) 08:54, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

I noted that Deicas reverted Xenophrenic's edits to his preferred version, Xenophrenic answered Deicas's question on the talk page,(, noting that Wikidemon was participating in discussions) and then Deicas refused to further discuss the content issue until the ANI was resolved (, because Xenophrenic did not "comply" with the demand of Deicas), which is, in my view, disruptive on the part of Deicas. ANI is for behavior problems, not content disputes. Either this should go back to the article talk page, or we should WP:BOOMERANG Deicas for his bad faith in resolving the content dispute. This seems to clearly be an example of WP:WIKILAWYERING, which he has been warned for on multiple occasions. , , where he was topic-banned from the Paul Krugman article for similar behavior. GregJackP Boomer! 09:15, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

As User:GregJackP has allowed editing of the article section to occur concurrently with resolution of this AN/I the situation has become very confusing and the BRD cycle is not being performed.

User:GregJackP: You you assert ] "Xenophrenic answered Deicas's question on the talk page,(]". I've asked a number of questions: which *specific* question do you believe Xenophrenic meaningfully answered? What text from Xenophrenic talk page edit do you believe is the meaning answer? Deicas (talk) 12:16, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

User:GregJackP: I observe that you have, yet again accused] me of WP:WIKILAWYERING. You've done this before and said that my citing of Misplaced Pages policy was an act of WP:WIKILAWYERING and refused further clarification. Would you please cite the policy or guideline that deprecates the citing of policy or guidelines? Your accusation is also contrary to theWP:WIKILAWYERING essay:

Because reasoned arguments in a debate necessarily include both elements of fact and references to principles, disputants who lack such an argument sometimes try to undermine arguments they can not otherwise overcome by just tossing out the naked accusation that their opponent is a wiki-lawyer. This is not a good faith tactic and does not foster a collegial consensus-seeking atmosphere. Therefore, any accusation of wikilawyering should include a brief explanation justifying use of the term.

Deicas (talk) 12:16, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

User:GregJackP: You say I "*refused* to further discuss the content issue until the AN/I was resolved" this is not true. I engaged in wishful thinking that this dispute could be resolved in an orderly manner in a single location. So much for that wish. You accuse me of making a "demand". All I've done propose solutions that have been ignored. Deicas (talk) 12:16, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

I also note the "the phrase 'You are wikilawyering' is an insult" and you also accuse me of "bad faith in resolving the content dispute". BAD FAITH? I'm just trying to persuade User:Xenophrenic to abide by the BRD cycle, thus avoiding the current chaos, and to meaningfully respond to questions about his edits and reversions . How are these actions evidence of bad faith? Deicas (talk) 12:16, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

: I've asked you a number of meaningful questions above. I hope that you won't again reply "In any event, you are not entitled to ... a further answer from me. "

Deicas (talk) 12:16, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

This edit is an example of WP:WIKILAWYERING. I also linked to places where you have been warned about it in the past, and noted that you were topic-banned from the Paul Krugman article. Those diffs and links are called evidence, at least in the wiki-sense. Keep up this nonsense and I'll propose another topic-ban. Your call. GregJackP Boomer! 12:36, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Spaghetti07205

• Spaghetti07205 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This is very obviously not a new user, and has pitched into a number of disputes such as over an infobox on Rod Steiger. The WP:DUCK is quacking, but does anyone know the duck man is? Guy (Help!) 14:27, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Might this be associated with the above discussion on the same talk page? Wildthing61476 (talk) 14:51, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Could possibly just be coincidental -- he was only involved in the Steiger infobox RfC because he had added an infobox to the article earlier that day (which was in fact different from the infobox which had been there before and had been removed ). Although, honestly, why he would create an infobox for Steiger out of the blue is a bit odd; but he could have seen the discussion and decided to make a better one. What other disputes are you seeing that he has been in? Softlavender (talk) 14:54, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Spaghetti07205.♦ Dr. Blofeld 14:57, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

There is a surprising overlap on some fairly obscure articles previously edited by User:Eric Corbett: . I'm not for a moment suggesting that this account is related to Eric, but it may be an editor who has had some prior interaction with him. Yunshui _水 15:07, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

The last blocked out editor that had overlap with him was a sock of User:Mattisse (User:EChastain). That is one place I would start to look. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 15:22, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Looks like a case of stalking after EC's edits. Those are really obscure articles! I share some interests with Eric, and I've never been to any of them. Definitely someone with a history. This is an interesting edit summary: - I wonder who the "we" - which they immediately deny - is supposed to be... Scr★pIron 15:24, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

In case it needs to be said then I'll say it: Spaghetti07205 has absolutely nothing to do with me. Eric Corbett 15:39, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

I filed an SPI on Spaghetti07205 this morning. The account is one month old and yet they know an awful lot about the infobox dispute. I don't like the sound of this one bit... JAGUAR  16:46, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Well the "we" is clearly Lukeno94 , who already has a (now closed) ANI running right now (can someone make that a permalink for when it gets archived)?. This Spaghetti character and his similars have an awful lot going on at ANI right now (these in addition to the preceding: , ), and perhaps all of them are related and trolling. Softlavender (talk) 21:18, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

• Note -- In light of the above, I would now render the Rod Steiger RfC null and void on the basis that it was established on the back of stalking. The current RfC should be shut down immediately. Would someone facilitate that please? Cassianto 18:37, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Response – the "we" was a typo, as I noted in my edit summary, I meant to say "I". Spaghetti07205 (talk) 21:34, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes, because the key "I" is so close to the two(!) keys "WE" on the keyboard. Funny how you also know about dummy edits after only five weeks and 250 edits. Softlavender (talk) 21:42, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes, that's an impossible typo. More like a Freudian slip.--Atlan (talk) 15:04, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Hello? Can someone end this thread already? No one's commented for three days, and a CheckUser has been run and has confirmed there is no evidence I've used other accounts. Spaghetti07205 (talk) 08:38, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

A bot archives threads exactly three days after the last comment; now it will take three more days since you've added that post. There is actually no reason to close this with a purple box since nothing was either done or not done; the SPI is on hold rather than closed. Softlavender (talk) 10:01, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Admin attention needed

This was archived unresolved.valereee (talk) 10:59, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Uncollaborative behaviour by SportsEditor518 (and related IPs)

I have been engaged in a dispute with User:SportsEditor518 (his talk page) (and various IPs of the same editor, including Special:Contributions/2001:8003:4406:9F01:223:32FF:FE9E:4B9F andSpecial:Contributions/2001:8003:4610:BF01:223:32FF:FE9E:4B9F) on the article Interstate matches in Australian rules football. It has been mainly a content dispute, with the two of us having different views on the popularity of the concept in the state of Victoria. My version states that interstate football was not popular in Victoria; his version states that it is. I'm not here to dispute the content; I'm here to report disruptive/obstinate behaviour by SportsEditor518 which is precluding any conclusion.

The dispute played out through moderated dispute resolution here: Misplaced Pages:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard/Archive_119#Interstate_matches_in_Australian_rules_football. This dispute resolution ground to a halt when SportsEditor518 simply stopped responding at the dispute page; but he is still monitoring the page in question, reverting any efforts to remove his unreferenced views, and making no efforts to engage in discussion proactively. There is an ongoing pattern of uncollaborative behaviour which, while it mostly seems well-intentioned, is proving disruptive; and therefore I am at a loss to understand where to go next other than to report SportsEditor518 (and his IPs) for edit warring, and also more generally on competence is required grounds. Specifically:

• He has continued to push his POV in the article that interstate football was very popular in Victoria, without providing any supporting references. The attempts at sourcing that he has provided have either a WP:SYNTH based on his interpretation of crowd numbers, or extremely generic references which don't really support the point (examples: ) The dispute resolution volunteer moderator and I have both tried to explain the shortcomings of his references to him, and to educate him on the policies, but he has proven unable or unwilling to accept them. (You can see in this diff that he still has a steadfast belief in the admissibility of his own synthesised conclusion).
• During the dispute resolution process, he went for two long unexplained absences which led to the volunteer moderator and I concluding he had lost interest in the dispute – only for him to re-emerge and begin reverting me or adding the disputed content again within a day of my making the edits to the article. (These diffs are the sudden re-emergences after long absences: – the timestamps make sense in the context of the dispute resolution page highlighted above) He has never given an explanation or apology for or even an acknowledgement of his absences. In the more recent case, he simply reverted the content and made no other attempt to continue discussion on the matter despite being fully aware that I disputed the content. This most recent response to my talk page is particularly insulting, and suggests he may be trying to game the system by claiming the dispute is unresolved when it was his own recalcitrance that led to the lack of resolution.
• He seems to have, and be unaware of, his own biases on the subject. He's shown on a couple of occasions ( ) that he views supporting interstate football as an inherently positive act, and therefore that my suggesting Victoria did not support interstate football is somehow an attack on Victoria's character – rather than simply a description of the state's tastes and preferences. It's clouding his judgement to view the references objectively.
• Finally, he is unaware of his own shortcomings as a writer. On a couple of occasions I have made purely style- and grammar-based edits without removing his content ( ], only to have them reverted with an edit summary to the effect of "mine says it better" (which I think the diffs clearly demonstrate is not true). I did raise this issue with him, but it was not well received . Once again, I think WP:CIR is relevant here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aspirex (talk • contribs) 10:16, 23 July 2015‎ (UTC)

comment I was the DRN volunteer for this dispute. The dispute started out with both parties appearing to be willing to discuss and find compromise. Unfortunately SportsEditor518 did fail to return to the discussion for a long period on two occasions. The first time, after a week's silence, we closed the discussion, believing their absence from both the discussion and from continuing to edit the article signalled that they had decided not to dispute the issue further, and Aspirex began editing on the disputed section again. SportsEditor518 immediately started editing the section, so we pulled the discussion from the archives and reopened it. SportsEditor518 returned briefly to the discussion, promising to respond the following day, and we waited this time nearly two weeks but they never did. We finally closed the discussion as failed. I have to agree with Aspirex that what started as a content dispute has become, unfortunately, a behavior issue. valereee (talk) 11:41, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - Having watched this dispute at the dispute resolution noticeboard as User:Valereee tried to mediate it, I have to agree with the OP and the moderator, at least if the IPs are SportsEditor518. If the IPs are SportsEditor518, then we have a pattern of attempting to provide synthesis amounting to original research, and of using dispute resolution to stall rather than to collaborate. SportsEditor518 replied and discussed briefly, then went into radio silence, then became active again, and then went into radio silence again. This is an intermittently tendentious editor who is disrupting the dispute resolution process. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:00, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

Topic-Ban on SportsEditor518 from Football

A topic-ban on SportsEditor518 is recommended from articles on Australian rules football. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:00, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

• Support as proponent. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:00, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose I think that's overkill. As far as I know, he hasn't caused any problems other places, just one section of one article, one particular tiny point that he feels extremely passionate about, possibly to the point it's almost a COI for him. He's a new user, and he found an assertion that he violently disagrees with on an emotional level. He just needs to stop editing that one article until he learns more about Misplaced Pages. If he's topic banned from Australian rules football, you might as well just block him, I think it's all he edits at this point. valereee (talk) 16:00, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
• Comment - I am willing to strike my recommendation on two conditions. They need to agree, first, to take part in collaborative discussion of editing, rather than pushing changes through, and, second, to edit only from their account and not from IPs. The problem at this point is that SportsEditor518 hasn't recognized that their editing behavior is problematic and that they should follow Misplaced Pages practices and guidelines. (The two disappearances are also problematic, but a rule that forbids editors from going off-line and coming back is not reasonable.) At this point we are waiting for a response from User:SportsEditor518. If they agree to improve their editing behavior, I will strike my recommendation. If not, not, because another period of silence is not agreement to stop the intermittent disruption. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:43, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

Alternate proposal Again, he's new -- at least to using a user name -- and one of the issues we had was that he doesn't edit every day or even every week. He hasn't edited logged in since July 11, so he possibly hasn't seen the messages to his username. He needs to be pinged at both 2001:8003:4406:9f01:223:32ff:fe9e:4b9f and 2001:8003:4610:BF01:223:32FF:FE9E:4B9F; I've also put the notice on both those pages. What I would support would be putting a block on both IPs, which would force him to log in and see that he has messages. valereee (talk) 09:38, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

Article ban on SportsEditor518 for Interstate matches in Australian rules football

Okay, the 4406 IP edited today. I think we can assume this user is ignoring us. I suggest a block on both IPs, an article ban for SportsEditor518 on Interstate matches in Australian rules football and that Aspirex resume editing that article. valereee (talk) 12:22, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

This was archived, wasn't resolved. Needs admin attention, please

Can I get some admin attention? valereee (talk) 10:50, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Robert McClenon and Aspirex, I'd like to formally close this discussion so we can ask an admin to implement...do you support the block on the IPs 2001:8003:4406:9f01:223:32ff:fe9e:4b9f and 2001:8003:4610:BF01:223:32FF:FE9E:4B9F and the article ban on SportsEditor518 for Interstate matches in Australian rules football? I am headed out of town with extremely limited access tomorrow, likely won't be in here until Aug9, and I'd like to get closure on this before I go to prevent it being archived unresolved again. valereee (talk) 14:37, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

• It appears that neither the named account nor the IPs have edited recently. The IPs are likely to be reassigned anyway. I don't see the urgency for getting this closed out. Yes, it is true that it is likely to be archived by the bot again. A new report can be made if the disruptive editing resumes. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:14, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Robert McClenon The IP edited on the 26th. Apirex reverted today, so if the other user conforms to past behavior, they will revert soon. If we can get the IPs blocked before they do, we might finally get their attention. You're right, no deadlines, but this has been going on for months now and I'd kind of like to feel like there's SOME progress being made. This has been talked to death on a half dozen pages now, I've spent hours on it, and we are really no further forward. I am feeling a little frustrated. valereee (talk) 15:32, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Can the article be semi-protected? If so, if the IPs are User:SportsEditor518 editing logged out, it will either stop the edit-warring or force him to log in. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:21, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

 Done semi-protected one month. Guy (Help!) 16:26, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Thank you! That represents definite progress for this issue! valereee (talk) 16:44, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, I hadn't realised I was meant to comment further; but yes, I think that would be a sensible approach. Aspirex (talk) 09:14, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

User:Бучач-Львів

• Бучач-Львів (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) --IJBall (contribs • talk) 19:00, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

I tried to explain the user that WP:MOS disfavors sandwitching text between images and the infobox. They have chosen to edit-war in Zhovkva (a town in Ukraine). Normally, I would just go to WP:3RRN, however, they also went to my talk page and left a message in Russian saying that since I am Russian (which they apparently infer from my mothertongue), I may not edit articles about Ukraine and should go editing articles on Russia and Putin. I believe this requires some administrative intervention. Thank you.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:34, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Subsequently, they accused me in vandalism . They are writing in Russian, possibly to avoid scrutiny. I respond them in English.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:37, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Ymblanter said absolutely horrible about my editing. I think, it was some tactless on his part. What were temples remove photos from the article? Sorry for bad English. --Бучач-Львів (talk) 12:41, 30 July 2015 (UTC) I can speak Russian well.

to Ymblanter, Iryna Harpy I'm not accusing Ymblanter of vandalism. I said it looks like vandalism. but he have perverted their way to my phrase.--Бучач-Львів (talk) 13:46, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

No, I said that the layout of the article after your edits looks horrible. I removed the pictures per WP:MOS, and this is the third time I am trying to explain this to you. If you do not speak English, may be you should not be editing here.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:47, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps you two can agree to display the four non-infobox images in a gallery rather than deleting some of them or forcing some of them into a position that produces an awkward "river" of text. Discussion on the talk page seems called for here. Deor (talk) 14:45, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Well, the user has consistently demonstrated problematic behavior and inability to comply with our policies. You may want to check their talk page. Additionally, their command of English seems to be insufficient, they clearly do not understand the messages. And, for the record, I started a talk page discussion before coming here.--Ymblanter (talk) 18:38, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

to Ymblanter You said absolutely horrible . --Бучач-Львів (talk) 18:33, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Do you actually speak enough English to understand my comment? Do you understand what I said?--Ymblanter (talk) 18:39, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

I very much doubt that the user does, Ymblanter. The editor has a history POV-pushing on Eastern Europe related articles, but doesn't seem to understand policies and guidelines when they're pointed out to him/her. Even if we are to assume good faith, their command of English is too poor to meet with the WP:COMPENTENCE needed to contribute productively hence, unfortunately, their presence here has become WP:DE. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:39, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

This is exactly my impression. I refer to WP:MOS, and suddenly they say I should keep clear of the Ukrainian articles because of my bias. It is not even an overreaction, it is a clear lack of understanding.--Ymblanter (talk) 06:09, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

to Ymblanter exactly, clear lack of understanding (100%). It is not my first conflict with you. --Бучач-Львів (talk) 13:39, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Don't we have WP:EMBASSY to facilitate communication in such cases?

• Getting back to the original complaint, this seems like an uncollegial nationalist (pro-Ukraine, anti-Russian) who is editing English-Misplaced Pages incompetently and behaving uncivilly. I favor a block. Carrite (talk) 06:51, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

to Carrite Ymblanter tells some lies, I believe, if he hasn't the right to edit articles about Ukraine. Of course, he has every right to do so. But since this article is about the Ukrainian town Zhovkva, this theme known me better than him. I think, his actions in the article, when he removed the photo of the Ukrainian church and the Rome church, were not constructive. Regarding my uncollegial nationalism - you are mistaken. But I am Ukrainian, and might know something about my country some more than the citizens of other countries.--Бучач-Львів (talk) 16:42, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

What about: Жолква - это Россия? Город основан украинским поляком. Пожайлуйста , займитесь Россией, Путиным. Бальшое спасиба . ? This is akin to an Austrian telling a German Wikipedian to stop editing about an Austrian village and to go back to writing about Germany and Hitler. That needs an apology, for starters. Carrite (talk) 17:19, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Russian Пожалуйста transated like please in English. I only expressed a request to Ymblanter because he speaks Russian, better complements the article about Russia or president Putin, instead he had removed photos of churches from the article about Ukrainian town. Am I charged him? I thank him for his contribution and I am glad its constructive contribution to the Articles about Ukraine.--Бучач-Львів (talk) 19:35, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

@Бучач-Львів: Please do not try to play other editors for fools. There are plenty of us who know Russian (and some of us actually know and speak Ukrainian far better than Russian). Fobbing off the remainder of your missive by pointing out your use of 'please' in the context (where it is far more likely to be read as, and intended to mean, ) is intentionally misleading as there is nothing polite about the remainder of the message: read as a whole, it in absolutely and undeniably WP:UNCIVIL.

Furthermore, it is indicative of the WP:PERSONAL attitude you adopted virtually from the moment you began editing English language Misplaced Pages. Aside from the derisive manner in which you've approached Ymblanter, should I bring your Ukrainian language 'discussion' with Ezhiki to this forum and translate it precisely (that is, with the nuances thoroughly parsed) for non-Ukrainian speakers? Your attitude is arrogant and harsh towards anyone you even suspect of being Russian, and all you've managed to demonstrate to this point is that you are an unabashed bigot. Nonetheless, you persist in depicting yourself as being good faith and are unable to bring yourself to even apologise for your behaviour. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 06:15, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

@Iryna Harpy: sorry that you think that I want someone to deceive. I currently difficult to prove to you my opinion, because it is the opposite of what you still want to keep. Thank you. Sorry for my mistakes. But what you say if I initially changes in enwiki am constantly WP:PERSONAL attitude - that did not quite true. Sorry for google transl.--Бучач-Львів (talk) 08:41, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

@Бучач-Львів: What it comes down to is the fact that you aren't assuming good faith about other long term, regular editors (in this case, we're talking about two administrators who have always been NPOV about the most contentious issues surrounding Eastern European articles). Rather than trying to WP:LISTEN, you are working on the assumption that they are POV pushers and telling them that they have no right to work on articles because they're Russian (or, in this case, you're assuming that they're Russian). They have tried to explain the policy and guideline based reasons for reverting your changes and/or modifying the content you've introduced. Interacting with other editors on a seriously misjudged assumption that they are automatically the 'enemy' because of your perception of ethnic prejudice undermines the entire project. Such an attitude is WP:BATTLEGROUND. No two editors are always going to agree on everything. Approaching any subject matter on preconceptions as to who they are and assuming an agenda is unacceptable. Any apologies should be offered to them, not to me. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:32, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

@Бучач-Львів: Please refrain from adding Kyiv in any Kiev-related article by citing this letter before we reach any consensus. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 22:23, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Commenting here so that it does not get archived. The article still is in violation of WP:MOS, since the user is unable to understand what the problem is and just reverts everything.--Ymblanter (talk) 15:38, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

The editor is clearly driven by nationalist agenda. As usual in such cases, big troubles are to be expected, if some rouge admin does not block the account. --Ghirla 17:43, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

@Ghirlandajo: What are the so-called nationalist problem is in Article Biliavyntsi, f. e.? How WP:PERSONAL? --Бучач-Львів (talk) 19:08, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Bangalore

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The requested move at Talk:Bangalore#Requested move 27 July 2015 has become ludicrous as the result of obvious meat-puppetry. I recommend it be closed in an attempt to forestall further silliness. DrKiernan (talk) 14:21, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Sorted by FPaS, thanks! DrKiernan (talk) 15:42, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

RfC spamming, canvasing, cross posting. User: HughD

HughD for violation of guidelines on publicizing a RfC, namely and vote stacking. HughD opened a RfC to insert information into the article Americans for Prosperity.] This RfC was opened on July 9th and notifications were place in the following locations:

• Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Politics ]
• Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject United States]
• Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Organizations ]
• Talk:Political activities of the Koch brothers ]

The initial posting may be WP:VOTESTACK because it was not posted to all the categories associated with the article and did include a category that would likely be inclined to support HughD's POV on the topic. The RfC should have also been posted in WikiProject Conservatism (a category listed with the article). The inclusion of Political activities of the Koch brothers may be seen as trying to stack the deck. HughD did not correct the failure to post the Project Conservatism noticeboard even after being warned.] - Note, warning dated July 27th

Later that day HughD added the following additional RfC notifications:

• Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard ]
• Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard ]
• Misplaced Pages:No original research/Noticeboard ]

Seven RfC (eight including a notice on the RfC noticeboard) seems more than sufficient.

As of July 17th HughD's proposal did not have a clear consensus for inclusion. Since that time HughD has published or bumped previous RfC 20 additional times. This includes adding new information which could be seen as biasing as well as targeting talk pages or noticeboards which he feels may be sympathetic to his POV while avoiding pages/boards that would likely oppose his view.

Postings at new locations:

• Misplaced Pages:Village pump (miscellaneous) ]

Bumps to original postings:

• Misplaced Pages:No original research/Noticeboard ]
• Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Organizations ]
• Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Politics ]
• Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject United States ]
• Talk:Political activities of the Koch brothers ]

New postings at locations of previous postings:

• Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard ]
• Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard (second new post) ]
• Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard ]
• Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard ]
• Misplaced Pages:Village pump (miscellaneous) (Original post was July 16th, 8 days prior) ]
• Talk:Citizens United v. FEC (This is a location that may find a sympathetic ear to HughD's POV thus is probably canvasing in addition to cross posting and spamming) ]

Bumps after being warned of excessive posting/canvasing (Bumps/posts on July 30th or later)

• Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard ]
• Misplaced Pages:No original research/Noticeboard ]
• Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Organizations ]
• Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Politics ]
• Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject United States ]
• Talk:Political activities of the Koch brothers ]
• Talk:Citizens United v. FEC ]
• Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard (this is actually yet another new post) ]
• Misplaced Pages:Village pump (miscellaneous) ]

User was warned of excessive posting/canvasing HughD was warned on his talk page prior to making the July 30th updates.] The user had been previously warned in conversation by a number of editors. ], ], ], ] Additionally Hugh has asked that others be aware of Misplaced Pages policies on canvassing.] Thus he is unlikely to be ignorant of the guidelines.

HughD has a history of disruptive editing on this and related topics and has 3 recent blocks (June 23rd, June 10th, April 10th). The most recent two are for edits related to this article ]

This is an editor who should know better but is unwilling to work within the rules to get the changes he thinks are best. I'm posting this ANI as an outside editor who has replied to the RfC in question but has never edited on the subject.

HughD has been notified of this ANI. A notification will also be added to the article in question. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Springee (talk • contribs) 15:13, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - For additional context, folks might want to check out this other recent ANI complaint against HughD (not much came of it), and Hugh's recent AE filing against Arthur Rubin (ditto). This all relates to a broader and rather ugly dispute over the content of Americans for Prosperity that's been going on for some time. As someone who's been involved in this debate, I'll just say the same thing I said when this came up before; as disruptive as HughD's behavior may have been, the NPOV problem that he's been trying to correct is a very obvious and very real one, and he's been up against an awful lot of battleground behavior and IDHT from other editors in this dispute. Not saying that excuses any disruption he may have caused, but I do think that the conduct of parties on both sides of this dispute should be scrutinized carefully by un-involved admins. Fyddlestix (talk) 15:50, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

All publicizing of the request for comment Talk:Americans for Prosperity#Request for comment: $44M of $140M raised by Americans for Prosperity in 2012 election cycle from Koch-related funds is conformant with WP:RFC "Publicizing an RfC", WP:Discussion notices "Best practices", and WP:CANVASS.

WP:RFC reminds us that WP:CANVASS "prohibits notifying a chosen group of editors who may be biased." WP:VOTESTACKING clearly prohibits selective notification based on who have or are thought to have a predetermined point of view. Please note that the option of notifying WP:CONSERVATISM was discussed at article talk five days ago 27 July 2015 and following, please see. Please note that the reporting user has filed an ANI report of canvassing, but has not themselves notified WP:CONSERVATISM. Please note that no editor has notified WP:CONSERVATISM. There is no deadline. If the consensus is that notification to WP:CONSERVATISM is conformant, and an editor was willing to place the notification, I would support a reasonable extension to the RfC period to allow additional time for comments from the participants in WP:CONSERVATISM.

"Bumps" WP:Discussion notices "Best practices" states that "regular updates may be appropriate" and that "setting a time for the discussion to end" is a best practice.

WP:RFC authorizes publicizing an RfC at the "talk pages of closely related articles or policies." Political activities of the Koch brothers and Citizens United v. FEC are closely related to Americans for Prosperity, as evidenced by the "See Also" section, please see. Hugh (talk) 04:58, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Please note 19:24, 31 July 2015 my good colleague User:Capitalismojo, on record in the Survey section of the RfC, deleted Citizens United v. FEC from Americans_for_Prosperity#See_also. Hugh (talk) 04:58, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Kindly decline this report. An important aspect of this RfC is to solicit community-wide input regarding a local consensus regarding a local interpretation of our neutrality pillar. Your comments at Talk:Americans for Prosperity#Request for comment: $44M of $140M raised by Americans for Prosperity in 2012 election cycle from Koch-related funds are welcome by most of us. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 16:42, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Not seeing any canvasing, canvasing is by definition non neutral. What I saw was a neutrally worded message on multiple forums. I agree that this complaint needs to be dismissed. KoshVorlon We are all Kosh 16:57, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Please see the canvasing links at the top of the ANI. There are two issues. The first, is that HughD has been selective in where he has posted his RfCs. The much bigger issue is spamming and cross posting. The excessive number of posts is spamming and against guidelines listed in the WP:CAN. Springee (talk) 17:40, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

I am very happy to say that I support the right of HughD to post wherever and whenever he wants, just as I support the right of other editors to do so. "The solution to the problems caused by freedom of speech is more freedom of speech." This complaint should be dismissed post haste. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 18:04, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Any claim that the canvassing is "neutral" requires failure to understand basic English. Also, the postings should not contain the arguments for inclusion without including arguments against inclusion. Hugh's claim that reporting the RfC to WikiProject Conservatism would balance the canvassing is failed and irrelevant, unless Hugh is banned from the project and is unable to make the announcement. It's failed because the RfC has been going on with the unbalanced announcements for over two weeks, and irrelevant because it doesn't excuse Hugh's actions.

This is more appropriate on the discussion page of the RfC, but the only way the RfC could be perceived as not being hopelessly biased is for it to be closed, restarted with neutral wording, advertised ONLY to the projects, not the noticeboards or irrelevant talk pages, and the the current participants NOT specifically notified of the restart. I'd be willing to work with Hugh on neutral wording if he would agree not to make his non-neutral wording other than in the actual RfC. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:43, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Forgive me Arthur, but I'm not seeing where Hugh made an "argument" for inclusion in any of the diffs provided above. What are you referring to specifically? Fyddlestix (talk) 19:54, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

• I'm not seeing a canvassing or a votestacking issue. I am seeing a lot of effort to bring more outside views into a fairly obscure topic area, which is beneficial. More people being involved in the RfC should result in a more representative consensus. If some interested wikiprojects were not notified, that's easily rectified. If HughD were selectively notifying individual editors or wording the notifications in a partisan manner, then I would conclude otherwise.- MrX 18:29, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

I'm honestly not well-versed in what is or isn't canvassing/campaigning, but if consensus here ends up being that this isn't a case of canvassing or votestacking by Hugh, then perhaps other editors' repeated repeated refactoring of Hugh's talk page posts to remove the RFC notices bears scrutiny: . These editors have been very aggressive about removing Hugh's posts and have accused him of edit warring for trying to restore his own talk page posts since this thread was opened. Fyddlestix (talk) 19:49, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

• I'm quite curious why Hugh posted the RFC notice multiple times on three of four related WikiProject pages (Organizations, United States, and Politics) while never posting the notice to WikiProject Conservatism. This seems like selective posting to me. When you couple this with the multiple postings to Citizens United v. FEC (the posting of the RFC notice to this page has been reverted by three different editors, and restored by Hugh four times), it looks rather odd to me. Hugh, could you explain your thinking behind not notifying WikiProject Conservatism? Perhaps if you posted the RFC notice there, it would help to clear up this matter. Thank you. Champaign Supernova (talk) 18:39, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

  I just notified WikiProject Conservatism. Are there any others that should be notified?- MrX 20:55, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

  • Thank you! Champaign Supernova (talk) 20:58, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

  Posting to WikiProject Conservatism can be seen as canvassing. It clearly has a conservative bias while the other projects connected to the page are seemingly neutral. Even on the WikiProject Conservatism talk page, it says "please note that posting here in order to try to recruit editors with a particular political point of view is contrary to the intent of this project, and may be regarded as a violation of the WP:Canvassing guideline." The purpose of posting a notice there is to recruit people from a group with a conservative bias for input on a RFC and doesn't merely seek assistance in how to approach a discussion or seek editing help. Just because it's labeled as a project, doesn't mean it gets excused from canvassing efforts. Clearly, if there was an explicitly liberal project that Hugh posted to, while ignoring the conservative project, then these concerns would have merit.Scoobydunk (talk) 22:05, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

• As an aside, should this ANI report be advertised on all the boards where the RfC was advertised? It would be helpful to get the opinion of editors who thought the announcement inappropiate but didn't know where to complain. I'm not going to do it without consensus, because it borders on spamming. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 21:25, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

  thumb|left|Yes Arthur, that sounds like a great idea!

• - MrX 21:41, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Please note well in considering my good colleague's suggestion above, to further publicize this ANI filing "on all the boards where the RfC was advertised", that no editor not previously involved in the talk page of Americans for Prosperity, none of the "regulars" at any Wiki Project talk page or notice board where this RfC has been publicized, has commented regarding so-called "excessive cross-posting", let alone deleting talk page comments and notice board postings. The only editors raising issues with the publicizing of this RfC are editors on record in the Survey section of the RfC, and also on record on one particular side of the RfC question. Understand clearly this is not an ANI complaint filed by annoyed notice board or Wiki Project participants. The regulars at the notice boards and Wiki Project talk pages managed to assume good faith. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 21:57, 31 July 2015 (UTC) Respectfully request quick close of this ANI filing, by an administrator please, since the target page Americans for Prosperity is under active discretionary sanctions. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 22:01, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

• I don't see any real evidence of RfC canvassing. It seems clear that when Hugh gets into a disagreement about whether something is or is not WP:SYNTH, for example, he posts an announcement to a noticeboard with a lot of editors who are familiar with that policy. That isn't canvassing. I personally ended up commenting on the RfC in question based upon seeing one of his announcements on a notice board, and my considered opinion is that what Hugh is trying to accomplish violates WP:BLP and WP:NPOV (some commenters agree with me on this and some disagree, which is why we have RfCs), so any alleged canvassing attempts failed in that respect. I do think that more admins should keep an eye on anything related to the Koch brothers and apply discretionary sanctions as needed. I am seeing a lot of attempts to whitewash or blackwash the Koch brothers rather than treating the topic in a neutral and encyclopedic fashion. --Guy Macon (talk) 23:48, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

• It's the third time the same RfC has failed to gain consensus. He's not getting the answer that he wants so he keeps trying to roll a bigger ball up a bigger hill. Heck, we even had the pre-RfC RfC for wording since it failed the previous time. Please make it stop. It's a long election season and starting the RfC dogpile on Koch brothers stuff now is just going to cause problems and entrenched positions later. --DHeyward (talk) 00:05, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

• Good point. A topic ban for Hugh on Koch-related articles would be too harsh. Perhaps a six-month topic ban on for Hugh on posting new Koch-related RfCs? --Guy Macon (talk) 00:17, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

• DHeyward, would you please provide links for the two previous RfCs. I can't seem to find them. Thanks.- MrX 00:35, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

• A short or medium term topic ban would be an appropriate solution in this case. HughD has shown "polite hostility" towards editor who don't agree with him while praising those who do. He also has 2 recent bans related to this article. A Koch family and related topics ban would allow him to work on other projects (and he seems to contribute in many cases) while avoiding what is clearly a family he wishes to blackwash. If others feel his proposed changes are worth while they may discuss and make them.Springee (talk) 14:37, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: If Hugh had held the opposite POV, this would have been deemed canvassing and he would have been sanctioned a long time ago. The apparent bias on Misplaced Pages is absurd. DaltonCastle (talk) 00:19, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
• What HughD is avoiding discussing is the primary complaint. The rules tell editors to avoid . 29 posts as of the time of this ANI and he has since done a new round of bumps. Clearly he is unhappy with the results of his RfC and is now using spamming in hopes of getting people who will agree with him rather than accepting that his view, part of a clear blackwashing attempt, didn't get consensus. If over 30 posts isn't excessive what is? Why have the rule?Springee (talk) 12:11, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Springee, thank you for your question. Excessive in this context is indiscriminate and/or disruptive, please see WP:CANVASS. May I please ask again, which notice was in your mind indiscriminate? Can you please provide an example of what you believe to be disruptive publicizing, such as perhaps a notice board administrator or project participant commenting in objection to a notice or deleting a notice? Thank you in advance for your reply to this important question highly relevant to this report. Hugh (talk) 02:46, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

• Comment (uninvolved non admin) I see no violation of canvassing and the diffs presented here seem to follow the advice on WP:RFC. The number of them leaves some concern, but original posts and the bumps seem neutral and only point out the RFC is applicable to the place posted. AlbinoFerret 12:53, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

• I agree, the number is excessive and that is a violation of the RfC posting guidelines. Given the editors other behaviors including edit warring on this topic and specifically telling others to follow the RfC rules I don't believe he should be given a pass here. I do think that his was also trying to stack votes by publishing his notices selectively (avoiding the Conservative Project page despite the fact that it is listed as a page related to this project). However, I would consider that minor were it not for the obvious excessive postings (something the guidelines clearly state should not be done).Springee (talk) 14:31, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

I disagree that it was excessive, and I do not see a violation of the RFC guidelines. They would be a problem if they were not neutral. As pointed out above, not notifying the Conservative Project can be considered within the RFC guidelines as they have, by the projects own admission, a bias. AlbinoFerret 16:00, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

How many is excessive? His notice was neutral but his posting locations were not (though not radically off). The Conservative one should have been notified as the page in question cites it as a related project. Other pages such as Citizens United could only be seen as trying to find a favorable audience when his original postings failed to get the support he hoped for. Why post there if his intent wasn't vote stacking? I could see over looking the less that 100% clean notifications but adding to the list and reposing in old one when it was clear that things weren't going his way was a clear violation of the spamming part of the canvasing rules. Springee (talk) 17:00, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Please produce a non neutral posting location. So far all I see are wikiprojects, noticeboards and the pump. All neutral locations. In fact he has avoided a non neutral location in the Conservative wikiproject. AlbinoFerret 17:14, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Hi User:AlbinoFerret, I believe posting the RFC at Talk:Citizens United v. FEC was non-neutral, as that page's connection to AFP is unclear (the page isn't wiki-linked or otherwise mentioned on the AFP page). I found it odd to not notify one of the WikiProjects (Conservatism) while choosing to notify this seemingly arbitrarily selected page (Citizens United V. FEC). I also found it troubling that Hugh continually reverted the RFC notice on that talk page after three different editors, including myself, attempted to remove it as an example of canvassing. Diffs of reverts: , , , . The RFC was certainly in enough places, so the four reverts on a seemingly unrelated page where three editors disputed the edit seems like a case of WP:IDHT. No rationale for choosing to post on the Citizen United page was ever given on that page or the AFP page. Thank you. Champaign Supernova (talk) 18:05, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Champaign Supernova, you wrote "I believe posting the RFC at Talk:Citizens United v. FEC was non-neutral, as that page's connection to AFP is unclear (the page isn't wiki-linked or otherwise mentioned on the AFP page" Citizens United v. FEC was included in the "See also" section of Americans for Prosperity, and as such was specifically authorized for publicizing at WP:RFC as a "closely related article," that is, until it was deleted yesterday. Hugh (talk) 18:25, 1 August 2015 (UTC) How would you characterize the non-neutral bias you claim among the participants at Talk:Citizens United v. FEC that you claim was sought out by posting an RfC notice there? Hugh (talk) 18:45, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Ok, if your basis for posting RFC comments to pages was that the pages were included in the "See Also" section, why didn't you post to Mark Block, which is also in the "See Also" section? If you're picking and choosing which pages to post to from among similar pages (i.e., pages in the "See Also" section), it's going to look like canvassing unless you have a specific, shared rationale for why you chose the pages you did. Champaign Supernova (talk) 18:37, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Respectfully request quick administrative close of this report with no action as the arguments get increasingly desperate. Thank you in advance. Hugh (talk) 18:45, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Champaign Supernova, you wrote "...three different editors, including myself, attempted to remove it..." Thank you for acknowledging your role in deleting perfectly valid RfC notices, but you might have gone on to specify that the other two editors were our good colleague Arthur Rubin and a sympathetic IP. Hugh (talk) 18:35, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Yay, more dripping condescension. Helpful. Champaign Supernova (talk) 18:41, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

All noticeboards associated with the article should be notified. Conversely why notify ones that are not? Why notify the Citizens United talk page? Why not notify all up front rather than casting a wider net (and again avoiding all boards associated with the article in question) when it was clear that HughD's attempt to blackwash was failing? Regardless, if it were just the location of notices I would say is was only a bit biased. It was the volume that I think is the issue. This is especially true since the volume went up after it was clear he was not getting the consensus he wanted. The canvasing guidelines make it clear that notification should be limited in number.]Springee (talk) 17:49, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

"The Conservative one should have been notified" If you believed WP:CONSERVATISM needed to be notified, why didn't you? Hugh (talk) 17:40, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Reporting user Springee, you asked "How many is excessive?" Our behavioral guideline WP:CANVASSING at "Spamming and excessive cross-posting" makes no mention of quantity, but does mention "indiscriminate" and "disruptive." If you would like to pursue an answer to your question, kindly take your question to the appropriate policy talk page. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 17:40, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Reporting user Springee, you wrote "the number is excessive and that is a violation of the RfC posting guidelines." Can you please be more specific about the specific policy or guideline you are alleging was violated? WP:RFC says "one or more." If you believe WP:RFC should include a maximum number of notices, please take your concern to the policy talk page. All the venues in which this RfC was publicized are explicitly authorized at WP:RfC, such as notice boards, associated project talk pages, or closely related article talk pages. WP:Discussion notices "Best practices" states that "regular updates may be appropriate" and that "setting a time for the discussion to end" is a best practice. Our behavioural guideline WP:CANVAS defines excessive as "indiscriminate" and "disruptive." Which notice was in your mind indiscriminate? Can you please provide an example of what you believe to be disruptive publicizing, such as perhaps a notice board administrator or project participant objecting to a notice? Thank you in advance. Hugh (talk) 17:07, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

HughD, the policy in question is noted in the opening of this ANI. Springee (talk) 17:13, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

May I please ask again, which notice was in your mind indiscriminate? Can you please provide an example of what you believe to be disruptive publicizing, such as perhaps a notice board administrator or project participant objecting to a notice? Hugh (talk) 17:23, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Yes, you may ask. You can also read above. Springee (talk) 17:49, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Question for Administrator: The guidelines clearly state that excessive notifications (in number and/or location) are a type of spamming. How do we judge when the number or locations are spamming? That seems to be the heart of the issue here. HughD's posts were also not neutral in location (though how not neutral is up for debate) but I would like to start with the question of judging excess. Springee (talk) 01:50, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

You don't need an ANI posting or an administrator to answer your question, please ask your question at WT:RFC, WT:CANVASS, or WT:Publicising discussions. I'm sure someone at one of those pages could help you with your question. Thank you in advance. Hugh (talk) 04:40, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Reporting user Springee, a problem with excessive RfC notices sufficiently severe as to warrant an ANI filing, wouldn't you expect at least one noticeboard regular or one WikiProject participant to comment in objection to the RfC notice, or to delete the RfC notice with a terse edit summary? How about anyone that is not on record in the Survey section of the RfC in opposition to the RfC question? Hugh (talk) 04:51, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Kiev vs. Kyiv (again and again...)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Recently the Kiev State Administration wrote an open letter for WMF requesting that the spelling of "Kiev" should be changed to "Kyiv". Based on this letter @EricLewan (with minimal contributions) executes the name change to Kiev Metro which I believe not yet justifiable. My point is, unless there is a consistent usage of "Kyiv" in the official documents of the US and UK governments, not even the state administration can change the usage in English Misplaced Pages in an attempt to influence the global application of the pro-Ukrainian spelling. I view this act as a misuse of Misplaced Pages and must be discouraged. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 02:44, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Personally, I agree with you, but why is this thread on this page? Isn't this a matter for normal talk page processes? Even if it is a repeat, how do we handle it here? What are you proposing?--Wehwalt (talk) 02:48, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

If a change is made to standard English Misplaced Pages spelling, just revert it. If the changer edit-wars, direct them to the WP:BRD policy, and explain things on their talk page. If they persist in edit-warring, report them at WP:ANEW. If someone (anyone) wants to change the way English Misplaced Pages spells the city, they need to institute a public Move proposal. Governments or their agents cannot influence English Misplaced Pages articles; everything is decided here by consensus via the appropriate process. Softlavender (talk) 02:54, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

This will potentially affects all articles mentioning "Kiev" if the consensus favors "Kyiv" over "Kiev". What I want is to establish a revised consensus regarding the Kiev State Administration letter in question, to give editors a clear direction on how to deal with the naming dispute stemmed from this letter. I requested page protection as I foresaw an edit war but the involved admin deemed the situation disputable and rejected my request. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 03:02, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

The admin was right to decline protection and this isn't the place to establish consensus about a name. If it becomes an issue, start a RFC on a page like Talk:Kiev. --NeilN 03:08, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

There have already been multiple discussions about this at Talk:Kiev. The outcome is always the same: "Kiev" is the current English COMMONNAME, so no "Kyiv". --IJBall (contribs • talk) 04:02, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

• Again, this is not an ANI matter. This is a WP:RM matter. Please go there; there are processes for multiple article names as well as for single article names. Thank you. Softlavender (talk) 03:10, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Update: We are still seeing what I consider to be low-level edit warring going on at Kiev Metro (most recently involving User:Бучач-Львів (see ANI thread above), so pinging Ymblanter... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 17:14, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Well, I am obviously not going to block this user, since I am involved, and communicating with him is very difficult since he does not speak English and assumes bad faith. May be a move protect could be a temporary solution.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:30, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

I wasn't looking for a block – I just wanted you to be aware. I'll keep an eye on Kiev Metro – if this persists over the next 24 hours, WP:RfPP will be my next stop... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 19:41, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

• I think I am going to re-close this, since there is already an ANI above about this other editor, and EricLewan has at least been engaging on Talk. Softlavender (talk) 10:14, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Vandal-like disruption, aspersions and PAs at WP:AVDUCK

Background: WP:Advocacy ducks is a relatively new essay, currently rated low impact. Unfortunately, what recently transpired was off the charts, WP:POINTY. A few editors are now attempting to make a mockery of the essay in a very disruptive, vandal-like fashion which was actually tried once before in the recent past by Quack Guru as evidenced below. The same editors adamantly opposed the essay from day one and tried to prevent it from going into mainspace. Their 3rd attempt failed but they have not dropped the stick. The most disruptive editors of recent events are:

• User:I9Q79oL78KiL0QTFHgyc
• User:AndyTheGrump
• User_talk:QuackGuru

I've grown weary of the BATTLEGROUND behavior.

The essay was created as a guide to help new editors respond properly to real (or perceived) disruptive editing by advocacy zealots. The suggested responses could actually apply to most disruptive situations. Much to my dismay, a small group of editors have misconstrued the essay and cannot/will not be convinced otherwise. They began the disruption after I initiated the current RfC because of ATG's reverts of my work. They have incorrectly interpreted the proposed statement and the essay itself as an attack on project teams which couldn't be further from the truth.

Disruption by I9Q79oL78KiL0QTFHgyc aka User:I9Q79oL78KiL0QTFHgyc/Previous_Account_Names

• Categorized a serious essay as “humor” He has been reverting and adding content in vandal-like fashion attempting to change a serious essay.
• Added pure nonsense mocking the essay
• Reverted with edit summary - “I LIKE IT” in a display of WP:OWN adding a link to ATG's user space mockery.
• More gibberish he added about burning witches to the stake he added to an image caption
• I reverted the gibberish and an unknown IP quickly reverted me - Hmmm Sock activity, perhaps? Atsme 18:07, 1 August 2015 (UTC) Perhaps this is more sock activity replacing the gibberish after I reverted for vandalism

Disruption by AndyTheGrump

• ATG mocked the essay in his user space and linked to it on the essay's TP
• Challenge to another editor - more battleground behavior
• Reverted my edit with unwarranted PA edit summary “you don’t get to use essays as a soapbox for your personal grudges”
• Casting aspersions I believe it's the result of his own misapprehension of the essay and the statement I added that he kept reverting.

• ATG continues to challenge segments of the essay, and insists there is zero evidence that confirms 'project advocacy' (his terminology) exists anywhere but in my imagination. Of course, that isn't true and I've explained it to him numerous times, and even quoted Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Council/Guide#Advice_pages, which confirms it as follows: However, in a few cases, projects have wrongly used these pages as a means of asserting ownership over articles within their scope...

Disruption by QuackGuru

• Quack Guru added ATG's mockery in the body of the essay. ATG reverted it.
• April 4, 2015 - PA against editors who supported the earliest version of the essay. QG opposed earliest version in an MfD stating, Delete and sprinkle extra salt. Trout and/or block editors for supporting nonsense. ]
• April 5, 2015 - More unwarranted PAs against other editors
• April 13, 2015 - After my essay was deleted, he rewrote his own to suit his POV - Misplaced Pages:Advocacyquacks - It was speedy deleted but not without resistence

Such behavior is disruptive, unwarranted, hurtful and certainly not helpful to the project. I respectfully request that an administrator review the behavior and take remedial action. Atsme 04:24, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Seriously User:Atsme this is not needed at ANI. I agree some sticks need to be dropped. The Misplaced Pages:Advocacy ducks essay started out really bad. It is now somewhat better. User:AndyTheGrump does write a good story though :-) We are here to write a high quality encyclopedia based on high quality sources Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 05:01, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Sticks do need to be dropped, and this is exactly the place for it since it isn't happening organically. (I'm unsure what high quality sources have to do with this thread or the essay.) petrarchan47คุก 05:20, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

• WP:Advocacy ducks should be userfied as it is a misguided essay based on the idea that certain editors should be dismissed as "advocacy ducks"—anyone wanting WP:FRINGE to be followed is an advocate and is biased. Furthermore, if several editors disagree with you it's because they are part of a biased project (see the talk page RfC). Johnuniq (talk) 06:35, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

That is a rehash of the failed deletion discussion, it was closed keep. Sadly those opposed continue to beat a dead horse. AlbinoFerret 12:03, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

I definitely would not say that I own the essay. I would say, however, with actions like this ANI report and the heavy-handedness with which she is trying to impose her views on the talkpage, that Atsme seems to think she owns it. If anyone doesn't like my edits, please feel free to revert them. I'm just trying to improve things. If I fail, well, that's life. jps (talk) 12:40, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

I think your editing patterns at the essay define you quite well. You have consistently disrupted my editing beginning with your opposing views at Griffin which resulted in you proposing an RfD which also didn't fly. Atsme 15:55, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Atsme, would you care to explain why, having written that "If you have an opposing opinion to this essay, WP guidelines suggest that you create your own essay expressing your opposing view, and we can link to it", you are now complaining that I did just that? AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:08, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Certainly - . Atsme 17:58, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Generally speaking, reading something before posting a link to it is advisable. You have posted no evidence whatsoever that I am trying "to prove a point" (what point?) or that I am trying to "game the system" (How? And to what purpose?). Instead, my essay is doing exactly what a user-space essay is supposed to do. Express a personal opinion on the way Misplaced Pages operates. And providing useful advice. Advice on the inadvisability of tilting at windmills, and the advisability of actually providing substantive evidence when claiming evidence of wrongdoing. Advice you should follow... AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:25, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Well of course - your essay is perfect and the essay I created is garbage - the world according to AndyTheGrump. Generally speaking, it's actually good to maintain confidence in one's own ability as long as it's within reason. Atsme 19:40, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

When I want advice on whether something is 'within reason', I'll ask someone who doesn't ask for Monty Python references to be oversighted. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:47, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Note - it has been pointed out to me that the apparent call for 'oversight' I link above might have been a typo, and 'checkuser' intended. If so, I'll withdraw the above remark. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:53, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Administrator attention please?

The named editors are not only causing disruption, they have now assumed WP:OWN of the essay and are removing images and attempting to change the entire perspective of the essay against what WP:Misplaced Pages Essays suggest. We have an ongoing RfC, a SPI and this ANI and the BF behavior continues. Please help before this escalates anymore than it has as a result of the above named tendentious editors. I am asking for an a-Ban against the named editors because they have opposed the essay from the very beginning and will not drop the stick. Their reasons for changing are clearly based in their own POV. Atsme 15:08, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Editors are attempting to change and improve the essay, true, but they're allowed to do that and there's nothing to indicate that they're doing it in bad faith. Opposing the essay as written does not mean that they're acting in bad faith. On the other hand, when you say to an editor Please help further by incorporating your suggestions as you envision them to be placed in the essay. You can start a new section below on the TP, or revert changes with a similar edit summary, you're showing classic signs of WP:OWNership. Ca2james (talk) 16:31, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

What is happening at AVDUCK is nothing short of BATTLEGROUND and you, Ca2james have come here with dirty hands. You are just as responsible for the behavior there as the other 3. In fact, it was you who tried to get the finalized copy of WP:Advocacy ducks deleted when you pretended to be a collaborative editor until you didn't get your way as evidenced here . You initiated an MfD and your attempt failed, . Now you have joined forces to cause disruption at the essay just like you did at Gabor B. Racz, a BLP I created that was promoted to GA. You can try to convince others that you're not on a mission to do me harm but the evidence proves otherwise.

To the closing administrator

I am asking for an iBan regarding the 3 named editors and Ca2james, and an essay ban (aBan) for all 4 of them. I see no other way to prevent them from causing me further harm and disruption of my ability to edit and improve articles on WP. I think my track record in creating/editing/promoting articles to GA and FA speak for me. I just want to edit in peace and as long as I have to contend with this troll-like behavior, I cannot do my work. Atsme 18:02, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

'an essay ban...for all of them'?!?!?' What the heck is this supposed to mean? That because Atsme and her (few) supporters don't like my essay, I should be banned from writing any more? This has to be the most utterly ridiculous of Atsme's endless demands that those of us who have had to deal with her have seen so far. We have had to put up with relentless battleground behaviour, endless accusations of policy violations that nobody else can see (i.e. the latest nonsense ai WP:COIN, the failed ArbCom case etc, etc...) and a complete inability to see disagreement as anything but evidence of some ridiculous grand conspiracy against her (does she really think she is that important?), but demanding that we be restrained from even expressing opinions on Misplaced Pages policy is going too far. I don't of course suppose that the community would for one minute sanction such draconian measures on the basis of the supposed 'evidence' she has presented so far (it should be noted that of the 130 or so people who have read my essay, the only negative comments have come from the three or four or so supporters she has who habitually follow her around), but I would ask that this obnoxious demand that her critics be silenced be taken into consideration when this thread is closed - as further evidence that she is unfit to edit Misplaced Pages. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:36, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

• Part of the problem has surfaced - AndyTheGrump has again misconstrued what he has read. My request has nothing to do with his fantasy essay but he's trying to make it appear as though it does. My case evidence proves which editors have created the BATTLEGROUND beginning with Andy's reverts of my attempts to improve/expand the essay, his unwarranted PAs and various other nonsensical comments during the RfC and everything I've mentioned above in my initial filing. The disruption caused by AndyTheGrump, JPS, and Ca2James is out of control. Several IPs have shown up at the essay, one that appears to be a sock which resulted in a SPI . That escalated into retaliation by JPS who filed the following unwarranted BLPN - another example of these same editors refusing to DROPTHESTICK. Now they are trying to flood this ANI with more nonsense so that no admin wants to get involved. They are experts at gaming the system. And to think, the same 4 editors - AndyTheGrump, JPS, QuackGuru, and Ca2James - have created all of this disruption at a low-level essay, not because they care about improving the essay, but because of retaliatory motives and their refusal to respect PAGs and the suggestions set forth in WP:Misplaced Pages Essays. The big question is WHY? Why are they going through all this trouble over an essay I created and co-authored? It's a sad state of affairs. Atsme 20:26, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

What AndyTheGrump said. I believe that I am being targeted by Atsme because I disagree with some of her interpretations and behaviour and because I express my disagreement - even though I do so respectfully. Although I do oppose the essay and did nominate it for MfD, I have accepted that the essay exists and have not sought to change it. It is clear to me that Atsme only wants to work with people that agree with and support her which would be very nice for us all but when there are multiple people working together, there will always be disagreements. It's equally clear to me that it's her antagonistic behaviour when receiving even the most gentle critique, coupled with her not being willing to accept that she's not right about something, that causes disruption. Ca2james (talk) 20:39, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Absolutely untrue as evidenced by the following diff: Atsme 21:42, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Atsme is yet again being wildly inconsistent. She states that her request for an " essay ban" against me has "nothing to do with his fantasy essay but he's trying to make it appear as though it does". Yet she started this thread with an assertion that I had "mocked the essay in his user space and linked to it on the essay's TP". She simply can't make up her mind what it is she is objecting to. So far, all that she has demonstrated concerning me is that I have written an essay she doesn't like, and that she objected to my revert of an edit which an RfC has overwhelmingly demonstrated that the community doesn't like either. Having failed to demonstrate that anything I did was remotely against Misplaced Pages policy, she then goes on to hold me responsible for what other people (including by the look of it one of the regular trolls who lurk around ANI) have been doing to the article. I reverted QuackGuru's addition of my personal essay to the article - and made it entirely clear to him that I wasn't happy with him doing it. I played no part in the addition of 'Monty Python' references to the article etc, and at no time have I suggested that I supported such behaviour. I don't, if only because it distracts from the core issue here - Atsme's ownership of a Misplaced Pages-space essay, her refusal to accept that legitimate criticism of it is justified, and her relentless battleground behaviour. She seems to be under the misapprehension that somehow the sheer quantity of vague assertions that policy has been breached by me will make up for the fact that she fails (per usual) to actually produce any verifiable evidence. This isn't a new phenomena - it is the way Atsme has operated for some considerable time, and it is the prime reason why I think Misplaced Pages would be better off without her. She may possibly write good articles sometimes (I haven't looked), and she clearly has talents (e.g. in TV documentary making - I watched one, and was most impressed), but she simply lacks the necessary social skills to work in a cooperative environment where disagreements are inevitable, and the resulting conflicts, escalated by her inevitable claims that she is being conspired against by anyone and everyone, are such a humongous timesink that any potential benefit we get from her presence is by far outweighed by the negatives. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:17, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

AndyTheGrump's response:

Ok, let's take a look at just what Atsme is accusing me of:

"ATG mocked the essay in his user space and linked to it on the essay's TP"

I had written an essay (User:AndyTheGrump/Advocacy Dragons)), clearly indicated as a personal response to the Advocacy Ducks one. And added a link to it amongst the 29 'Related essays, policies, and guidelines' (including several other personal essays) at the bottom of the 'ducks' essay page. Does it 'mock' the ducks essay? If you want to read it that way, possibly. Though only to the extent that the ducks essay deserves mockery (or at least criticism) for its emphasis on seeking out 'advocacy ducks' as some sort of alien species, rather than recognising that advocacy is a complex issue (I'd argue that every Misplaced Pages contributor is an 'advocate' of something or another) and that apropriate responses are better centred on actual behaviour (and actual evidence) than on duck-hunting. A perspective which is at the root of much Misplaced Pages policy, I would have to suggest. And why the hell shouldn't I write an essay on advocacy-hunting if I want to? Misplaced Pages contributors are perfectly entitled to express their personal opinions regarding the way Misplaced Pages is run. Atsme has written a controversial essay, and added it to Misplaced Pages space. And she has the nerve to object to me expressing an opinion of it, in my own personal space? A double standard almost beyond belief.

As for the essay itself, I invite everyone to read it, and decide for themselves whether it is legitimate. I note that the page view statistics show that at least 99 people have viewed it so far, and that the only people who have criticised it have been Atsme and a couple of her supporters from the RfC. Supporters who seem to think that they are beyond criticism, and that they have the right to stifle dissent.

"Challenge to another editor - more battleground behavior"

Utterly ridiculous. A contributor was basically asserting that edit-warring to remove the link to the essay (which incidentally I'd only ever added once) proved that there was no 'consensus' for it. Did I 'challenge the other editor'. Certainly - because he was asserting that edit-warring was the way to determine consensus. Which needless to say, it isn't...

"Reverted my edit with unwarranted PA edit summary “you don’t get to use essays as a soapbox for your personal grudges” "

Given the nature of the edit, the number of times Atsme has defended the content by claiming (without ever producing the slightest bit of evidence, despite being asked to on multiple occasions) that Wikiprojects have been engaging in advocacy, I have to suggest that all the evidence points to the fact that my summary was correct. And note that this edit is over a month old. And that I told her that if she had a problem with it, she should take it to ANI (se this discussion at User Talk:BDD ) She didn't. Instead, she chose to start an RfC on the disputed material. Which unsurprisingly shows that the clear consensus is that unwarranted attacks on the integrity of Wikiprojects don't belong in an essay in Misplaced Pages space. Only now, when it becomes clear that I was right to remove the material, does she decide to raise it here. And as for the edit summary itself, Atsme had stated only a few days previously that she intended to edit the 'ducks' essay - in a manner clearly intended to attack the integrity of Wikiproject medicine.

"Casting aspersions I believe it's the result of his own misapprehension of the essay and the statement I added that he kept reverting."

As is self evident, I am doing nothing of the sort - Atsme wrote "Some editors who happen to be members of certain project teams are disruptive and they do tag-team and exhibit WP:OWN..." ...and yet again failed to come up with even a scintilla of evidence. Aspersions were certainly being cast. By Atsme. Yet again.

In summary, nothing Atsme has linked is evidence for anything but her own relentless battleground behaviour, her own inability to take dissent as anything except evidence as a conspiracy against her, and her complete lack of self-awareness when she accuses others of behaviour she exhibits herself by the bucketful. She is a liability to the project, and we would be a lot better off without her. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:21, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Addendum: From a post by Atsme, on Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Advocacy ducks:

"If you have an opposing opinion to this essay, WP guidelines suggest that you create your own essay expressing your opposing view, and we can link to it."

AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:32, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

I have been noticing the goings-on over this essay, and would say AtG's is an on-point analysis. Meanwhile, I am having my own time wasted by Atsme with a vexatious complaint at WP:COI/N#Potential_COI_re:_Alex_Brown, and this follows on the heels of a declined case at Arbcom, again over COI. The Arbs suggested there were issues here to be discussed at AN/I and so it may be time for the community now to examine this editor's behaviour more widely and decide whether its patience with Atsme has been exhausted and if some kind of WP:BAN should be considered. Alexbrn (talk) 13:46, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Alex, your presence here is retaliatory which is understandable but it conflicts with WP:AGF. Proposing bans, blocks, etc. simply because I filed this ANI is pretty sad. Perhaps you should be included in the above list considering your hands aren't clean based on the disruptive behavior you displayed at Gabor B. Racz along with the many unwarranted allegations and aspersions you've made against me in recent months, July 4, 2015 - edit summary: (serious problems with sourcing (/advocacy?), July 7, 2015, edit summary: "the lurking suspicion of a COI taint": and your unwarranted removal of copy-edit tags I added to a poorly written BLP. Your presence (and that of a few other editors here who won't drop the stick) is seemingly ubiquitous where I'm concerned. I just want the PAs, aspersions and disruptive behavior to stop so I can get back to creating and editing articles and improving the encyclopedia. The amount of attention that was given to a low-impact essay I created and co-authored coupled with the gang-like disruption from editors who opposed the essay from the beginning (and who have repeatedly refused to drop the stick which Doc James even noted) needs administrator attention. Please don't try to make this a kangaroo court because the focus needs to remain on the obnoxious behavior exhibited by the above named editors. You know full well it was disruptive and unambiguously pointy and carries the strong scent of tag-teaming and own. Atsme 17:10, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

I would say that AndyTheGrump is 'casting aspersions' on this editor. His editing is disruptive, unfriendly and not cooperative. The well meaning and well done essay does not deserve such intense attack personalized against the writer of the essay. Earl King Jr. (talk) 14:50, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

On the contrary, I find AndyTheGrump not to have been disruptive whatsoever. He has accurately and forthrightly laid out the facts. I see no personalized "attacks" at all, just a calm recitation of what has been happening. Capitalismojo (talk) 14:59, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

EKJ, would you care to expand on that in a manner that suggested that you were actually addressing the issue being discussed here, rather than using this thread as a platform for your own issues with me? AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:01, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Earl King Junior is the one entirely uninvolved voice in this thread, and his comment is 100% accurate. petrarchan47คุก 19:32, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Uninvolved with the AVDuck essay, yes, but has had arguments with AndyTheGrump over at Talk:Zeitgeist (film series) so I wouldn't characterize EKJ as uninvolved when it comes to comments on ATG. Ca2james (talk) 16:13, 2 August 2015 (UTC)