| Revision as of 05:39, 7 August 2015 editGhatus (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users2,561 edits →"Hindu" slave and Timur← Previous edit | Revision as of 05:46, 7 August 2015 edit undoGhatus (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users2,561 edits →Selective cherry picking by Ms Sarah Welch to save face: new sectionNext edit → | ||
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| Historian Irfan Habib writes in "Timur in the Political Tradition and Historiography of Mughal India" that in the 14th century, the word "Hindu" (people of "Al-Hind", "Hind" being "India") included "both Hindus and Muslims" in religious connotations.<ref>http://asiecentrale.revues.org/500</ref> {{quote|When Timur entered Delhi after defeating Mahmud Toghloq’s forces, he granted an amnesty in return for protection money (mâl-e amâni). But on the fourth day he ordered that all the people of the city be enslaved; and so they were. Thus reports Yahya, who here inserts a pious prayer in Arabic for the victims’ consolation ("To God we return, and everything happens by His will"). Yazdi, on the other hand, does not have any sympathy to waste on these wretches. He records that Timur had granted protection to the people of Delhi on the 18th of December 1398, and the collectors had begun collecting the protection money. But large groups of Timur’s soldiers began to enter the city and, like birds of prey, attacked its citizens. The "pagan Hindus" (Henduân-e gabr) having had the temerity to begin immolating their women and themselves, the three cities of Delhi were put to sack by Timur’s soldiers. "Faithless Hindus", he adds, had gathered in the Congregation Mosque of Old Delhi and Timur’s officers put them ruthlessly to slaughter there on the 29th of December. Clearly, Yazdi’s "Hindus" included Muslims as well.<ref>Timur in the Political Tradition and Historiography of Mughal India, Irfan Habib,p. 295-312</ref>}} | Historian Irfan Habib writes in "Timur in the Political Tradition and Historiography of Mughal India" that in the 14th century, the word "Hindu" (people of "Al-Hind", "Hind" being "India") included "both Hindus and Muslims" in religious connotations.<ref>http://asiecentrale.revues.org/500</ref> {{quote|When Timur entered Delhi after defeating Mahmud Toghloq’s forces, he granted an amnesty in return for protection money (mâl-e amâni). But on the fourth day he ordered that all the people of the city be enslaved; and so they were. Thus reports Yahya, who here inserts a pious prayer in Arabic for the victims’ consolation ("To God we return, and everything happens by His will"). Yazdi, on the other hand, does not have any sympathy to waste on these wretches. He records that Timur had granted protection to the people of Delhi on the 18th of December 1398, and the collectors had begun collecting the protection money. But large groups of Timur’s soldiers began to enter the city and, like birds of prey, attacked its citizens. The "pagan Hindus" (Henduân-e gabr) having had the temerity to begin immolating their women and themselves, the three cities of Delhi were put to sack by Timur’s soldiers. "Faithless Hindus", he adds, had gathered in the Congregation Mosque of Old Delhi and Timur’s officers put them ruthlessly to slaughter there on the 29th of December. Clearly, Yazdi’s "Hindus" included Muslims as well.<ref>Timur in the Political Tradition and Historiography of Mughal India, Irfan Habib,p. 295-312</ref>}} | ||
| {{reflist}} | {{reflist}} | ||
| == Selective cherry picking by Ms Sarah Welch to save face == | |||
| Sarah has now come down to quote diaries of a traveller of an incident of burning of books in Varanasi. On the contrary, I can give hundred of examples of Sanskrit books being translated to Persian with ROYAL PATRONAGE. The MUGHAL PAINTING are full Hindu mythology. Many of the most famous temples of North India of today was established with ROYAL MUGHAL PATRONAGE. This is not history writing, but fraud.] (]) 05:46, 7 August 2015 (UTC) | |||
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Addition to Further Reading
Hello! I have a suggested addition for 'Further Reading: Scholarly'
Flueckiger, Joyce Burkhalter (2015), Everyday Hinduism, Wiley-Blackwell, ISBN 978-1-4051-6021-6
Alaani (talk) 18:11, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
Islam and sects of Hinduism (c. 1200-1700 CE)
This section does not look neutral - it does not even mention the revival of Hinduism in India under two powerful states - Vijayanagar and Maratha I am editing this section with absolute credible references
Amit20081980 (talk) 18:55, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
References
- http://www.britannica.com/place/Vijayanagar
- http://www.britannica.com/place/India/Political-and-economic-decentralization-during-the-Mughal-decline#toc46985
- Good addition, I think. Interestingly, it seems that it was also the Vijayanagar Empire where Shankara was elevated to the status he still has today. This contrasts with the statement in the article "Followers of the Bhakti movement moved away from the abstract concept of Brahman, which Adi Shankara consolidated a few centuries before." Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 19:59, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, the first paragraph seems to have come from some Hindutva pamphlet. What "sects of Hinduism"? I don't see any. Cheers, Kautilya3 (talk) 22:29, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
- @Kautilya3: Bhakti sects of Hinduism, makes more sense in the title. Bhakti movement gathered steam after 12th century, peaked between 15th-18th centuries in east/west/central/north regions of the subcontinent. See Karen Pechelis and Schomer & McLeod sources in the article. Also see: Christian Lee Novetzke (2013), Religion and Public Memory, Columbia University Press, ISBN 978-0231512565, pages 138-140. It includes a discussion of Islamic rule period and Bhakti movement in their Deccan region, on those pages. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 04:26, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- Hi Sarah, I know. But I was pointing out that there is no mention of any of it in the section. In fact, the section is leaving religion behind and going off into politics. I am not sure how this happened. On the matter of "sects", as opposed to "movements", I expect there would be diversity in the scholarly sources. Calling them "sects" as if it were a fact seems to constitute POV. Cheers, Kautilya3 (talk) 08:04, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- Totally agree with Amit20081980. This section is written in an utter rubbish way.Ghatus (talk) 13:41, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- Hi Sarah, I know. But I was pointing out that there is no mention of any of it in the section. In fact, the section is leaving religion behind and going off into politics. I am not sure how this happened. On the matter of "sects", as opposed to "movements", I expect there would be diversity in the scholarly sources. Calling them "sects" as if it were a fact seems to constitute POV. Cheers, Kautilya3 (talk) 08:04, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
@Kautilya3: Indeed. Bhakti movement needs to be mentioned in this article. Religion-related historical violence and its impact on the religion, its followers is relevant and due, for balance and completeness. Similar discussions are in Christianity and Islam articles. Let us focus on reliable sources, instead of puzzling perspectives of their anti-Hindu, pro-Hindu, anti-Islam, pro-Islam organizations. The section looks well sourced. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 14:10, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
@Ghatus: I reverted you because your edits have issues and they weakened the article. You, for example, generalized Richard Eaton's book on Islam-Hindu interaction in Bengal region of India (The Rise of Islam and the Bengal Frontier) to all of India, and your summary wasn't accurate either (FWIW, Maratha/Vijayanagara should be trimmed; this overview article is too big). Lets discuss per BRD, and reach consensus. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 14:46, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- What do you know about Sufism in India? Bengal and Punjab was the center of Suhrawardiyya.Ghatus (talk) 16:12, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
Islam and Hinduism-1200-1750
1)Which renowned Historian wrote that Hindus became Muslim by just dint of Sword? It's a total rubbish statement. Even a person having some knowledge of mediaval History knows that there were several reasons for conversions. Read books of B. Chandra, Thapar, RS sharma, Eaton, D. Jha. Some of the reasons are:
- Initially by violence, threat or other pressure against the person.
- As a socio-cultural process of diffusion and integration over an extended period of time.
- That conversions occurred for non-religious reasons of pragmatism and patronage such as social mobility among the Muslim ruling elite.
- Some of Muslims were descendants of migrants from the Iranians or Arabs.
- Majority Conversion was a result of the actions of Sufi saints.
2)Islam was dominant in North India, but not in the South.
3)Bhakti started in the the South actually, but flourished in the north.
4)Vijaynagar and Maratha power show the revival of Hinduism.
These are historical facts. Theologians should keep a distance from History. Ghatus (talk) 15:36, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
@Kautilya3: & @Joshua Jonathan: Do look into the matter. Ms Sarah Welch is unfit for history writing. I do not have enough time at hand now, but this myth of "Hindu trauma at the hand of Muslim tyranny" was first spread by the British and it later became a main driving point of Hindu Nationalist movement.Ghatus (talk) 16:06, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- @Ghatus: Avoid forum-y behavior, see WP:TALKNO. Try providing specific RS with page numbers, with sentences/proposal to improve the section. I am puzzled by your third revert on this article today, despite BRD reminder, and after I have already provided specific issues with your edits above. If you want another issue, you changed the Jizya repeal language, which was already in article before your edit. You changed it to, without source:
- "The Delhi Sultanate of North India imposed Jizya tax on Hindus, later it was repealed by Akbar when the Mughal rule was formally established in India."
- This made it misleadingly inaccurate and worse, because Akbar did not establish Mughal rule, and Jizya was brought back by Aurangzeb. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 16:13, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
1)Babur's Mughal rule on some parts of India was wiped out within some years. Akbar FORMALLY ESTABLISHED mughal rule in India in 1556. yes, Jizya was re-introduced by his great grand son Aurangzebe, but the Marathas are now already in the scene and it was the end of the empire. I was just presenting both sides.Ghatus (talk) 16:20, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- Dear both, this is an article on religion. I suggest we steer clear of politics. What interests us in this article is what impact Islam/Muslim rule made on Hinduism. Nothing has been said about that in the article. Jizya and slavery etc. don't belong here. Cheers, Kautilya3 (talk) 16:26, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- @Kautilya3: Jizya were religion-related taxes. It belongs here, much like it belongs in the relevant Judaism section, as it already does. Same is true for slavery and other issues, if and where religion was an issue. This is well sourced, relevant and belongs. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 16:34, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- Who wrote such lines like- "Typically enslaved Hindus converted to Islam to gain their freedom","Starting with 13th century, for a period of some 500 years, very few texts, from the numerous written by Muslim court historians, mention any "voluntary conversions of Hindus to Islam", suggesting its insignificance and perhaps rarity of such conversions".
I CHALLENGE TO PRESENT ANY SERIOUS HISTORIAN WRITING SUCH LINES ON INDIAN HISTORY. THESE ARE TOTAL RUBBISH WRITTEN BY SOME THIRD RATE PAMPHLETEERS. ALL BOGUS. Are these lines written by-B. Chandra? Thapar? RS sharma? Eaton? D. Jha? Ghatus (talk) 16:38, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- Who is P Hardy? Who is Hari Sharma? What are their worth and accomplishment? Their opinion do not even count. Ghatus (talk) 16:44, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- BTW, I am not going to leave this matter. Wrong quote and selective cherry picking would be dealt with in the next few days till I get the desired result. I need some time. Ghatus (talk) 16:55, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
Mass Conversion to Islam: Theories and Protagonists- Eaton
HERE EATON TALKING ABOUT ENTIRE INDIA.Ghatus (talk) 17:18, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- Please post more.VictoriaGrayson 17:22, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- Entire book is given. He elaborately talks about all the theories of conversions. Ghatus (talk) 03:30, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
MISQUOTING OF SOURCE
THE ARTICLS CLAIMS THAT EATON WROTE - ""In 1562 Akbar abolished the practice of enslaving the families of war captives; his son Jahangir banned sending of slaves from Bengal as tribute in lieu of cash, which had been the custom since the 14th century. These measures notwithstanding, the Mughals actively participated in slave trade with Central Asia, deporting Hindu rebels and subjects who had defaulted on revenue payments, following precedents inherited from Delhi Sultanate"(P.11)
EATON DID NOT WRITE IT. HE DID NOT EVEN MENTION HINDU-MUSLIM ISSUE. I AM GIVING THE LINK OF P.11
LIES AND HYPOCRISIES ARE BEING SPREAD IN THE NAME OF OTHERS. SHAMELESS. Ghatus (talk) 17:42, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- Ok, it appears that this slavery issue doesn't have anything to do with the subject of this article. I am removing it. Cheers, Kautilya3 (talk) 18:15, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- @Ghatus: You have slightly misquoted what is actually quoted in the article. I see it on page 11. It is in a chapter written by Richard M Eaton (see top of pages 10 and 12). The context is Hindu and Muslim, see page 10 and elsewhere, with footnotes. I don't think there is a need to quote more or the entire chapter by Eaton. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 18:17, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- WHAT MISQUOTE? You have given page number and the quote in the article. Both are false. There were Hindu slaves and there were Muslim slaves. You made it a communal matter. Where is the line you have given in the source??? I am a student of History and I know it very well how to quote and how to misquote.BTW, SEE above. Eaton has explained my position very well.Ghatus (talk) 18:24, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- @Ghatus: The article's embedded quote is , not Hindu. If you acknowledge there were Hindu slaves and Muslim slaves, just remember @Kautilya3's advice: the relevant part here is "anything to do with the subject of this article", that is Hindus. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 18:34, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- What a logic! The source says that Sultan X killed Hindus and Muslims. And, you are writing that "The source says that Sultan X killed Hindus" totally omitting "Muslim" under a lame excuse of the article being on Hinduism fully knowing that it is both distortion and communalization of the source, hence,it is falsification. You have no idea on History. It seems that I wasted my time.Ghatus (talk) 18:39, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- @Ghatus: The article's embedded quote is , not Hindu. If you acknowledge there were Hindu slaves and Muslim slaves, just remember @Kautilya3's advice: the relevant part here is "anything to do with the subject of this article", that is Hindus. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 18:34, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- Sarah, slavery was an integral part of the way the Afghan/Turkic societies worked. The Sultans themselves were slaves originally, and they are called "slave kings" for that reason. Their invading armies were mostly made up of slaves. It is wrong to suggest that Hindus were being singled out for slavery. - Kautilya3 (talk) 18:48, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- @Kautilya3: You are probably mentioning Mamluk dynasty. That doesn't belong in this article. Non-Muslim war captives and tax defaulters were the source of slaves during Islamic rule, according to Eaton, Wink and many others. But, if you find any reliable source that states Hindus were never enslaved during the Islamic rule period, we should add a summary from that source with a page number in this section as well, for NPOV. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 19:00, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- We have to be careful not to suggest that certain things were a special case if they were in fact the norm. While this article has to focus on Hinduism, it doesn't not have to do so slavishly (sorry!). In other words, it would probably be wrong to say that "X enslaved Hindus" if in fact "X enslaved Hindus and also Muslims". The first creates the erroneous impression to the reader that only one community suffered under X. Mentioning Muslims in this situation, and with not much greater verbiage, is a reasonable aside from the main focus of the article: it aids the reader in obtaining a full understanding of the situation in its context, and that is surely our goal. Alternatively, if the slavery issue as a whole is pretty much beyond the scope of the article then we say nothing at all. - Sitush (talk) 20:21, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
@Sitush: Indeed. In this case we have a lack of an RS that says, "X enslaved Hindus and Muslims", and an abundance of sources saying followers of Hinduism were enslaved during the Islamic period. Note: "enslaving Muslims is not same as Muslim slaves", because the process used to be: Hindu or Buddhist etc war captive / tax defaulter -> Hindu/Buddhist slave under a Muslim slave-owner -> slave converts to Islam becoming Muslim slave -> Muslim slave's manumission if the slave-owner so wishes (if I recall, there was an exception: if Hindu/non-Muslim slave girl became pregnant with her Muslim master's child, she became free upon her master's death, her child was deemed Muslim while she could remain non-Muslim). But this discussion doesn't belong in this article, IMHO. I encourage @Kautilya3 to add summary from any RS that says "followers of Hinduism and Islam were both enslaved" or "followers of Hinduism were never enslaved" during the Islamic rule period, along with page number and the RS. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 20:54, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- Hmm. That is not exactly what I said. I said "slavery was integral part of Afghan/Turkic society." The Turks themselves were originally enslaved by the Persians and Arabs. I am sure you know this. (See for example, Avari, pp. 38-41, especially p. 41). It was the conquered people that were enslaved, probably without much concern for their religion. - Kautilya3 (talk) 21:48, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
Historians vs Pamphleteers
Can two cent Pamphleteers like P Hardy, Hari sharma etc be taken seriously when Giant historians like RS Sharma, Eaton, Thapar etc have given a totally counter point of view? - Ghatus (talk) 18:02, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- I tagged Will Durant as unreliable source as per WP:HISTRS. A cursory look at the book indicates that it is indeed a "story" of civilization, not a history. - Kautilya3 (talk) 01:55, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- @Kautilya3: Go past the folksy title of his series. Will Durant was a historian, significant enough to have articles in tertiary peer reviewed literature such as encyclopedias. The series cited in this article is notable, having sold millions of copies and in many languages. Reviews of his work, including the one cited in this article, were consistently positive. Scholarly criticism was missing or mild, the latter of the style that he did not go far and deep and aggressive enough, that Durants were "never uncomfortably realistic, never daring, never surprising. Theirs is the enlightenment that still enlightens, basically kindly, hopeful, progressive, reasonable, democratic," according to a NYTimes commentary. Will Durant's book meets the WP:HISTRS requirements. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 03:52, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
Questionable claims
Sultanate-sponsored religious violence
Durant is already a questionable source. Gaborieau is also not a HISTRS, but the mention is of violence "during the Sultanate" (not sponsored by Sultanate) in just a single sentence with no details. I doubt if the Sultanate sponsored any religious violence (whatever that means). - Kautilya3 (talk) 02:08, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- Gaborieau is a peer reviewed scholarly source, widely cited, thus meets WP:HISTRS. Will check and embed relevant quotes. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 03:52, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
Wide-spread practice of raids
(along with siezure and enslavement). I don't find references to such in the citations. Can you give a page number or a quotation? - Kautilya3 (talk) 02:08, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- Will check, and revise/quote appropriately. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 03:52, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
Forcible conversion
Jamal Malik is actually saying there is no evidence of forcible conversion. Hardy's paper is a survey of old literature, and doesn't present any conclusions from the conflicting claims. So this claim is not verified. - Kautilya3 (talk) 02:08, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- You missed the para. I will embed the quote from Jamal Malik. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 03:52, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
Has one lost reason?
The article claims: "Forced conversions occurred on an even larger scale at the end of the eighteenth century in the context of increased communal conflicts as well as during the Mappila Rebellion (1921/1922)"
Which incident? 18th century or 20th century? Under the nose of Hindu Zamindars and British rule?
Again says: "Starting with 13th century, for a period of some 500 years, very few texts, from the numerous written by Muslim court historians, mention any "voluntary conversions of Hindus to Islam", suggesting its insignificance and perhaps rarity of such conversions"
On the contrary there are only handful mentions of forced conversions. It's a lie being written.
Further says," There were occasional exceptions to religious violence against Hinduism"
Bogus. Show me the source. Historians like Eaton, RS Sharma(MI- I & II), B. Chandra, Thapar say the opposite. Show me the data or the Royal Charter or the official policy. If someone dies while fighting, you are calling it "religious violence". Ghatus (talk) 04:25, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
Hindu temple destruction and desecration
In these two booklets, everything on this matter - list, locations, background and history - is talked about in detail.
I have given link to both Part-II & Part-I in PDF format.
1. http://ftp.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00islamlinks/txt_eaton_temples2.pdf (Part=II)
2. http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00islamlinks/txt_eaton_temples1.pdf (Part-I)Ghatus (talk) 05:09, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
Where are Rajputs?
You are writing history of medieval Hinduism and no mention of Rajputs??? Are we idiots???Ghatus (talk) 05:14, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
"Hindu" slave and Timur
Historian Irfan Habib writes in "Timur in the Political Tradition and Historiography of Mughal India" that in the 14th century, the word "Hindu" (people of "Al-Hind", "Hind" being "India") included "both Hindus and Muslims" in religious connotations.
When Timur entered Delhi after defeating Mahmud Toghloq’s forces, he granted an amnesty in return for protection money (mâl-e amâni). But on the fourth day he ordered that all the people of the city be enslaved; and so they were. Thus reports Yahya, who here inserts a pious prayer in Arabic for the victims’ consolation ("To God we return, and everything happens by His will"). Yazdi, on the other hand, does not have any sympathy to waste on these wretches. He records that Timur had granted protection to the people of Delhi on the 18th of December 1398, and the collectors had begun collecting the protection money. But large groups of Timur’s soldiers began to enter the city and, like birds of prey, attacked its citizens. The "pagan Hindus" (Henduân-e gabr) having had the temerity to begin immolating their women and themselves, the three cities of Delhi were put to sack by Timur’s soldiers. "Faithless Hindus", he adds, had gathered in the Congregation Mosque of Old Delhi and Timur’s officers put them ruthlessly to slaughter there on the 29th of December. Clearly, Yazdi’s "Hindus" included Muslims as well.
- http://asiecentrale.revues.org/500
- Timur in the Political Tradition and Historiography of Mughal India, Irfan Habib,p. 295-312
Selective cherry picking by Ms Sarah Welch to save face
Sarah has now come down to quote diaries of a traveller of an incident of burning of books in Varanasi. On the contrary, I can give hundred of examples of Sanskrit books being translated to Persian with ROYAL PATRONAGE. The MUGHAL PAINTING are full Hindu mythology. Many of the most famous temples of North India of today was established with ROYAL MUGHAL PATRONAGE. This is not history writing, but fraud.Ghatus (talk) 05:46, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
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