| Revision as of 17:15, 7 August 2015 editIgorp lj (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users1,818 edits →Igorp's removal of RS: See my '+ Netanyahu ; - B'tselem: "Israeli condemnations were mere rhetoric"'← Previous edit | Revision as of 17:38, 7 August 2015 edit undoNishidani (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users99,556 edits →Igorp's removal of RSNext edit → | ||
| Line 38: | Line 38: | ||
| : See my '+ Netanyahu ; - B'tselem: "Israeli condemnations were mere rhetoric"' --] (]) 17:15, 7 August 2015 (UTC) | : See my '+ Netanyahu ; - B'tselem: "Israeli condemnations were mere rhetoric"' --] (]) 17:15, 7 August 2015 (UTC) | ||
| ::To repeat. Where is the policy justification for having excised B'tselem's comment? Yopu edit summary is a description of what you did, not an explanation of the removal.] (]) 17:38, 7 August 2015 (UTC) | |||
Revision as of 17:38, 7 August 2015
 | Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.
|
 | Palestine Stub‑class | |||||||||
| ||||||||||
Urging caution, accuracy
This very recent crime is widely presumed to have been carried out by Israelis. But until there is some sort of evidence identifying the attackers, we need to be very careful about wording. I have changed absolutist wording in lede.E.M.Gregory (talk) 14:24, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
- "Perpetrator" is inappropriate language at this stage in the investigation, in info box as elsewhere.E.M.Gregory (talk) 01:40, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
- Until there is evidence of some sort: suspects, arrest warrants speculation about the perpetrators in the lede is a violation of NPOV. It was further down in the article, where it belongs, since it can be sourced. But to put it in the info box and in the lede is unwarranted.E.M.Gregory (talk) 12:30, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
- One reports what RS say. All RS mention Jewish (settlers) as suspects, from the New York Times downwards, and this is therefore the default term. Saying such groups are under suspicion doesn't incriminate anyone or any group. It simply shows that government investigatory bodies have adopted that line. That Arutz Sheva darkly alludes to a village feud is a fringe theory (it did exactly the same in countering all aearlier reports re Abu Khdeir's murder by suggesting he was the victim of an Arab paedophile or two, and by6 suggesting the scaffolding incident in September 2014 was caused by Palestinians) that has no place here, -it's settler gossip and innuendo and sleaze- unless later investigations confirm it, which, as so often, never happens. That a crime has perpetrators' is self-evident.Nishidani (talk) 17:02, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
- Nishdani, you know better than that. Firebombed " by suspected Jewish assailants" in the lede. when what the authorities specifically do not have is leads to suspects. In the article as I left it, the suspicisons were reported on further down the page. Expansion on that is appropriate. Putting the kind of language into the lede that you put there is against policy in a developing major crime story, and needs to be taken out of the lede.E.M.Gregory (talk) 17:36, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
- I know no more than what RS say, and rewrote this to fix a botched piece of WP:OR that tried to prejudge the issues by making mysteries where sources so far indicate none. We don't know what the authorities have in hand, contrary to your assertion. We know how the Israeli political establishment, the mainstream Israeli and western newspapers presented it, and that is that Jewish settlers are suspected. This may turn out to be wrong, but so far that is what sources say, and the lead reflects this usage. Israeli usage distinguishes criminal acts from terror acts, and terrorism. The lead must respect majority RS usage, and not tamper defensively with reports to 'tone down' things.Nishidani (talk) 18:52, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
- One reports what RS say. All RS mention Jewish (settlers) as suspects, from the New York Times downwards, and this is therefore the default term. Saying such groups are under suspicion doesn't incriminate anyone or any group. It simply shows that government investigatory bodies have adopted that line. That Arutz Sheva darkly alludes to a village feud is a fringe theory (it did exactly the same in countering all aearlier reports re Abu Khdeir's murder by suggesting he was the victim of an Arab paedophile or two, and by6 suggesting the scaffolding incident in September 2014 was caused by Palestinians) that has no place here, -it's settler gossip and innuendo and sleaze- unless later investigations confirm it, which, as so often, never happens. That a crime has perpetrators' is self-evident.Nishidani (talk) 17:02, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
- It is a breaking crime story and strong assertions about who is believed to be culpable do not belong in the lede.E.M.Gregory (talk) 18:55, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
- What is the policy basis for this curious personal opinion? Nishidani (talk) 19:47, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
- Nishdani, at least try for NPOV.E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:15, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
- In what way is Misplaced Pages's neutral voice affected by the careful reproduction of mainstream language describing this incident as one in which Jewish terrorists are considered by Israel to be the main suspects? It's not quite relevant perhaps, but you should note that clan feuds in small Palestinian hamlets usually do not, if they are intent on blaming Israelis for murders, achieve the spectacular mastery of Chabad messianic jargon to forge an alibi and blame outsiders. Perhaps, if we are to believe the Arutz Sheva rumour mill, there is some devious Moriarty of Palestinian terrorism who, when not confectioning bombs, studies the writings of Menachem Mendel Schneerson? But the 'signature' has been taken by most Jewish and Israeli sources as indicating that kind of messianic environment for the simple reason that an assumption to the contrary (Arutz Sheva etc) requires an extraordinary amount of special pleading. In any case, we do not know, and 'suspect' is not proof, except when describing shot Palestinians, at least that is the standard combination one reads of in the local press concerning the other side.Nishidani (talk) 10:33, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- At this point, it's just an unsolved act of arson, in which a family were horrifically burned and a child died. I begin to wonder about the notability of a WP article that mostly retails rumours.E.M.Gregory (talk) 19:22, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- In what way is Misplaced Pages's neutral voice affected by the careful reproduction of mainstream language describing this incident as one in which Jewish terrorists are considered by Israel to be the main suspects? It's not quite relevant perhaps, but you should note that clan feuds in small Palestinian hamlets usually do not, if they are intent on blaming Israelis for murders, achieve the spectacular mastery of Chabad messianic jargon to forge an alibi and blame outsiders. Perhaps, if we are to believe the Arutz Sheva rumour mill, there is some devious Moriarty of Palestinian terrorism who, when not confectioning bombs, studies the writings of Menachem Mendel Schneerson? But the 'signature' has been taken by most Jewish and Israeli sources as indicating that kind of messianic environment for the simple reason that an assumption to the contrary (Arutz Sheva etc) requires an extraordinary amount of special pleading. In any case, we do not know, and 'suspect' is not proof, except when describing shot Palestinians, at least that is the standard combination one reads of in the local press concerning the other side.Nishidani (talk) 10:33, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
Arson v. Murder
I removed the "murder" categories since arson is not necessarily murder, courts have to determine intent to cause murder.E.M.Gregory (talk) 22:41, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
Meir Ettinger
It is reported that Meir Ettinger, ( a grandson of Meir Kahane), has been detained as part of the investigation . This article: Why Jewish Terror Is Different This Time should perhaps go into the article, when more is known, Huldra (talk) 23:16, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
+ Netanyahu ; - B'tselem: "Israeli condemnations were mere rhetoric"
Just curious to know who has brought B'Tselem's opinion about the allegedly rhetorical condemnation of the attack by Israeli leadership, "forgetting" to add information about the condemnation itself ):).
Let's still try to comply with some POV and to distinguish between the Government and some controversial NGO in their notability. --Igorp_lj (talk) 17:13, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
Igorp's removal of RS
B'tselem said that Israeli condemnations were mere rhetoric if such attacks (were) allowed to continue.
Where's your policy justification for erasing this sourced material?Nishidani (talk) 16:28, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
Condemnations of violence are tediously mechanical and lack any significant content, yet editors think this chorus of crap outrage, as opposed to the record of then doing nothing, is often the most significant thing to underline. You boost the outrage by officials, and remove the one sentence which says nothing is ever done to fix these outrages.Nishidani (talk) 16:30, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- See my '+ Netanyahu ; - B'tselem: "Israeli condemnations were mere rhetoric"' --Igorp_lj (talk) 17:15, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- To repeat. Where is the policy justification for having excised B'tselem's comment? Yopu edit summary is a description of what you did, not an explanation of the removal.Nishidani (talk) 17:38, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- Cite error: The named reference
USNEWSwas invoked but never defined (see the help page).