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Revision as of 10:21, 11 August 2015 editNishidani (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users99,556 edits →French translation← Previous edit Revision as of 10:29, 11 August 2015 edit undoNishidani (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users99,556 edits →"Seasonally" in the leadNext edit →
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:::::: {{re|Kingsindian}} I have read the book by Yaakov Havakook in the library today. He specify Khirbet Susya as a seasonal location. He lived in the area continuously between 77 and 79 then visited a few more times until 84 and the book was published in 85. I took a photo so I can give an exact translation. There is more evidence to support this and evidence that suggest otherwise is a document by (though she may have visited during the season) but i'll wait with it until the pages deletion discussion is over so we can write it in an objective way. :::::: {{re|Kingsindian}} I have read the book by Yaakov Havakook in the library today. He specify Khirbet Susya as a seasonal location. He lived in the area continuously between 77 and 79 then visited a few more times until 84 and the book was published in 85. I took a photo so I can give an exact translation. There is more evidence to support this and evidence that suggest otherwise is a document by (though she may have visited during the season) but i'll wait with it until the pages deletion discussion is over so we can write it in an objective way.
:::::: The fact the village was (very likely) seasonal doesn't mean that it should be demolished. Some argue it should still be protected under int'l treaties and the land ownership is another issue that need to be addressed in the article. What I'm trying to say is - right now the article doesn't explain any of this. It is a mess of incoherent information on a subject that is both complex and explosive. ] (]) 19:49, 10 August 2015 (UTC) :::::: The fact the village was (very likely) seasonal doesn't mean that it should be demolished. Some argue it should still be protected under int'l treaties and the land ownership is another issue that need to be addressed in the article. What I'm trying to say is - right now the article doesn't explain any of this. It is a mess of incoherent information on a subject that is both complex and explosive. ] (]) 19:49, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
:::::::Israeli reports reflect archaeological, not human interests. We have source bias, plus source inadequacy, and the article simple reflects these inadequacies. That transhumance cultures are 'seasonal' says nothing much other than noting tribes engaged in them had two destinations depending on the period, for sowing crops and grazing flocks. That in Israel and under the occupation seasonality disinvalidates claims to land is a convenient political story to allow people from Brooklyn or Moldavia with no historic connections to the area to seize native rezources under the protection of guns wielded by an occupier power which ignores the obligations of ninternational and humanitarian law, that forms part of the picture, complicated by recent evidence that title to land exists in Susya some 700 acres, dating to Ottoman times. This will be clarified (partially) at the next sittings of the court.] (]) 10:29, 11 August 2015 (UTC)


== French translation == == French translation ==

Revision as of 10:29, 11 August 2015

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Date of establishment

The UN report is ultra RS. The susya.net. source is not an RS. It is the homepage, in a foreign language, maintained by the settlers, i.e., the word of an interested party. So CM's attempt to elide the former in favour of the latter is dubious in terms of policy. Secondly, putting the Hebrew dating system is inappropriate. Thirdly, the edit summary justifying the elision of the UN RS, is partial. The UN annex reads:-

ESTABLISHED OR IN THE PROCESS OF BEING ESTABLISHED IN THE OCCUPIED TERRITORIES OF THE WEST BANK

CM left out the first part, established and selectively gave the second part, italicized, as reason for suppressing the UN document. His edit also ignored that the UN gave a precise date in its annex. May 1983. I have been reasonable not questioning the right of the moshav homepage to its version (apart from the fact I am only at the beginning of editing the history of this section). To suppress the UN version is simply to play, in wikipedia, spokesman and praetorian guard for a self-promoting web page of nondescript value in terms of RS. Don't do it again.Nishidani (talk) 20:18, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

(ec) There's really no need to turn every minor detail into an edit war, and there's no real mystery or controversy surrounding the date of establishment of the new community. It is September 1983, according to both Palestinian sources (which, incidentally, you added to the article) as well as to the official site of the community, which is a reliable source for facts about itself, such as the date it was established. The UN source you keep citing as a "differing" source actually does not say otherwise, the May date it gives is for when the settlement was "IN TE PROCESS OF BEING ESTABLISHED", ie., not yet established. Canadian Monkey (talk) 20:20, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

The moshav webpage (given its highly ideological character, want RS on this?) is not an RS for historical detail. From the beginning there has been a conflict in sources. The history of the settlement is complex, and I am retaining the two dates because the UN source happens to be of higher RS value than the Palestinian source (which in turn is of higher value than the susiya.net source). The May date given refers to settlements 'established 'or in the process of being established. As an editorial principle, one retains what reliable sources say until the disparity between them is overcome by some tertiary source whose authority decides the question. Nishidani (talk) 20:30, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
The Moshav page is no more 'highly ideological' than the UN committee. I again suggest you take it to the WP:RSN noticeboard if you think your argument has merit. The UN source gives a list of "ESTABLISHED OR IN THE PROCESS OF BEING ESTABLISHED" which means we don't know if the date there is for when the Moshav was established, or 'IN THE PROCESS OF BEING ESTABLISHED'. Since we have two other sources that are more precise on this question (and which happen to agree on the date, even though they come from completely opposing political POVs), there no need to use the UN source, which is useless for this purpose. Canadian Monkey (talk) 20:36, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
What's your game CM, trying to get me sanctioned for a 3RR violation, because I insist that your repeated editwarring to remove the highest quality RS on the section is a violation of wiki policy. I can see no other motive here. Your editing insists on giving a non-RS source, a virtual webpage blog, higher RS rating than a UN document. I fail to understand your warring persistence in preferring poor to quality sources. These pages are edited over time, not overnight. My record here is clear. Your record, as contributor so far, is near to zilch.Nishidani (talk) 20:35, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
The only game-playing that is going on here seems to be coming from your end, as you insist on turning every edit I make on this page, including trivial non-contentious issues like the date of the establishment of the modern settlement, into some huge point of contention, apparently due to some personal issue you have with me.
We have two sources, one pro-Palestinian, one pro-Settler, which both agree that the date is September. We have a third source that gives a date of May as the time when the settlement was either "ESTABLISHED OR IN THE PROCESS OF BEING ESTABLISHED" - we don't know which is which. So we could turn this non-contentious issue into a cumbersome sentence that implies some mystery or controversy, and reads something like "According to both Palestinian sources and Israeli sources, it was established in September", but a UN document gives a date of May for when it was 'ESTABLISHED OR IN THE PROCESS OF BEING ESTABLISHED" - or we could edit the article in an encyclopedic manner, and state it was established in September, which is what the sources say, and give one or two reference for it. Canadian Monkey (talk) 20:46, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
I have to say, this seems like a tiny point to make a fuss about, and CM is correct that the UN document, whatever its provenance, doesn't give a specific date as to when the settlement actually started... and really, who cares? IronDuke 20:49, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
The UN document gives the day 1983 May. I didn't create this absurd havoc, nor make a fuss. I am correcting the POV elision of an RS. Aby Warburg said famously, 'God is in the details'. We are writing an encyclopedia, and if detail is fuss, then we should are here on false pretences.Nishidani (talk) 09:43, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
CM is correct in that the UN document doesn't say whether the village was established or in the process of being established, on the given date. Other sources are more precise. According to Immanuel HaReuveni, a prominent Israeli geographer, Susya was started in 1982 and the residents moved in in 1983 (doesn't say what month). Therefore, it can be added that the village's established process started in 1982 and was completed in September 1983, which seems to be as accurate a picture as we get from the various sources. --Ynhockey 23:20, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
All three of you are wrong, and this is block judgement. I found the UN date in sources. Canadian Monkey first added the susya.net source, giving September. At this state of the play, I had an official document, specifically registerinng West Bank developments, published by the specific UN agency monitoring settler activities on the West Bank, giving May, and the September date.
If you examine Canadian Monkey's monkeying with this, he (a) eliminated the UN source giving may while (b) giving the susya net source, which in anycase is an unreliable source, since it is a self-promoting website by a moshav with some notoriety in the world.
What did I do? I noted the September source from the moshav website was unreliable, but knowing the alternative date does exist, left it there, with the UN source. For in principle strong reliable sources should not be deleted and replaced with poor sources, and, there is no harm in keeping the alternative dates since (c) they may very well refer to different moments in the establishment of the moshav (fencing in, expropriation, first building, caravans, or first settled habitation etc.etc).
CM then read what he calls a 'pro-Palestinian' source which he uses to justify his elimination of the UN document. He's happier having two partisan accounts which appear to balance each other and confluesce in their data, than having a third external source which disagrees with both. Bad practice.
Who really cares, I am asked? I do, and I have worked hardest on the article to get details precisely sourced from the best literature, and if I find a conflict, I don't make a personal judgement according to what I personally prefer, I retain all available information until I or some other editor establishes with indisputable clarity which source gets things right on what details. This, gentlemen, is what editing towards an encyclopedic end. All I see in Canadian Monkey's behaviour is work to ensure the moshav's point of view is secured, even at the cost of contesting what external international bodies say.
One cannot equivocate, as he did, on 'established' as equivalent to 'in the process of establishment'.
I haven't warred on POV. I have warred to retain alternative information that happens to come from the UN authority monitoring the West Bank settlements, while CM has consistently edited to suppress it. That is suppression of a high quality alternative source, and is unconscionable. It is unnecessary because adding 'May' to or 'September' saves the phenomena, while retaining the best available source do date.
Ynhockey is correct about 1982, which I was also familiar with from my files. I have a large file on Susya, and precisely because information from various sources is ragged, I edit point by point to get the whole picture in, not to push some line. Last night's idiocy should not be repeated. Nothing is lost by retaining at the drafting stage all reliable sources. Much may be lost by priviliging partisan sources at their expense. It's a matter of principle.Nishidani (talk) 07:24, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
The UN date is useless, because it refers to an undefined/unknown event: "ESTABLISHED OR IN THE PROCESS OF BEING ESTABLISHED" - i.e, we don't know if May is the date when it was 'ESTABLISHED', or if May is the date it was 'IN THE PROCESS OF BEING ESTABLISHED' - and we further have no idea what "IN THE PROCESS OF BEING ESTABLISHED" means. We have 2 other sources that provide a precise date, September, for when it was actually established - there's no reason not to use that, or to artificially create imprecision where non exists. Canadian Monkey (talk) 17:25, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
This is wikilawyering. You don't challenge reliable sources because they don't answer the questions you might think of. The source says MAY 1983. It is reliable, therefore it is added, whatever an editor's private opinion may be.
It is not wikilwayering to note that the source you want to use does not actually say what you claim for it. Canadian Monkey (talk) 20:24, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
Nishidani, please refrain from making personal attacks against other editors. Thanks, Ynhockey 20:09, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
Nice game,set match, Canadian Monkey, Ynhockey, IronDuke, and now NoCal. I can accept 3 against one, but no intelligent editing can be done on a page with NoCal100 there. His only function, as far as I have seen, is to push good editors over the top and get them subject to incremental sanctions. Of all of the obscure articles in wikipedia, all of a sudden there is intense fascination about this rare little islet, and I find, having built it, just after I'd done the history of the Jewish synagogue, that it will be 4 against 1, if I try to give the history of the Palestinian Susya. Nice work. I'm checkmated by a numbers game. And nothing in the air at Arbcom will stop this collectivist editing, for they have no remedy for it. I don't believe in coincidences. I do read events contextually. It's decision time at Arbcom, and this nice little collective frustration of my obvious edit has its uses. Will he go overboard, will he make personal attacks, can 'we rush up a referrel to arbitration for some infraction. I suppose this is enough. Nishidani (talk) 20:21, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
As Ynhockey notes above, please refrain from making personal attacks against other editors. Thanks. Canadian Monkey (talk) 20:24, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps what is needed at this juncture is an RfC asking which source should be used? Who is willing to open it to break this deadlock? Tiamut 14:53, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

I made a bold edit here as part the WP:BRD. Feel free to revert. But I suggest that whoever reverts, opens an RfC so as to get wider community input on this issue. Tiamut 14:59, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
Looks like a reasonable solution, thanks. Canadian Monkey (talk) 17:50, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Recent edits

Let's see... the stuff restored consists of:

  1. One deleted image
  2. A series of spelling mistakes
  3. Removal of a template
  4. Restoration of a promotional link only vaguely related to Susya
  5. Restoration of a controversial paragraph sourced to a blog
  6. Restoration of a paragraph sourced to a page that doesn't support its content

Please state how any of these are appropriate. The original edit by Anon was pure vandalism from all points of view. —Ynhockey 16:42, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Could you please refactor the heading here? I'm sure you are aware of WP:TALK, which frowns upon using your fellow editor's names in talk headings.
I removed the image and restored the template (points 1 and 3). Thanks for pointing that out. I had missed those changes in my revert of your edit.
I assume by "spelling mistakes", you are referring to your changes of "Susya" to "Susia"? Per the MoS, I thought we were supposed to use the spelling used in the article title, which is why I didn't think reverting those changes was a problem. If it is, and you have another rationale for their use, please do elaborate.
The rest of descriptions are very far off base. The material is adequately sourced and where it was not I added other sources. When you want to discuss in more accurate and less polemical terms, I am ready. Tiamut 17:10, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
I have changed the talk heading per your request. Thank you for making some of the necessary fixes, and indeed I misread about Susya vs. Susia (thought that the Anon wrote Susia, I guess it was the opposite).
However, there is still a problem with the part about the settlers. You are actually citing this WP:REDFLAG claim to a blog and a book by an Indologist-turned-peace-activist. That doesn't seem like exceptional sourcing, and in fact, it's not even reliable sourcing. Shulman is no more a reliable source on the Israeli–Palestinian conflict than, for example, Moshe Feiglin, who also wrote at least one book on the subject. Moreover, the book source you cited doesn't even support the claim; it merely retells a personal account of an event in 2005, mostly about a specific incident. This is quite far from the libelous claim that "The settlers regularly harass their Palestinian neighbours, uprooting their olive trees, shooting their sheep and threatening the citizens. They are often supported in this by the Israeli army." —Ynhockey 17:58, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
Shall we rephrase and attribute to Shulman then? Tiamut 08:37, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
As long as it's significantly trimmed (per WP:UNDUE) and supported by the source, I am fine with that. —Ynhockey 01:04, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Infobox

There were a number of changes to the infobox. Some of these are good, such as using the standard settlement infobox instead. Some of these are however not good. Here are the issues with the infobox as it stood before my edit:

  1. The pushpin map was the Israel map which has as its alt text Susya is located in Israel. This is plainly incorrect as Susya is not in Israel.
  2. The district is named "Judea and Samaria". The WP:Naming conventions (West Bank) stipulate that the "Area" must be included. Also, as a result of those naming conventions and the discussions involved in setting them up, it was determined that when the infobox contains "Judea and Samaria Area" as the district the infobox must also include "West Bank" as the region. Code was inserted in the Israel specific infobox to ensure that happened. Here I just added it as a separate field
  3. The coordinates region is given as IL (Israel) when the location is actually in the Palestinian territories.

nableezy - 15:40, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

The village is not in the 'Palestinian Territories' and saying so is misleading. It is Israeli, and not under any Arab control. --Shuki (talk) 19:22, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
That is a demonstrably false statement. Susya is in the West Bank which is a part of the Palestinian territories. Your warped view as to what the "Palestinian territories" encompasses has no basis in the sources or reality. nableezy - 19:25, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Regardless of the above, the infobox should be changed back. If there's a problem with the map, that can be addressed separately. —Ynhockey 20:41, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Why? nableezy - 20:42, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
For one, the global format has Hebrew display problems, and is much more complicated for the regular user to understand. Secondly, we should be consistent in infobox use and it's a problem if some localities have one kind of infobox and others have another. —Ynhockey 21:36, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
I was unaware of any language display issues, but that should be easily solved by using the {{rtl-lang}} template for any Hebrew or Arabic script. I agree there should consistency, but I dont see anything in the Israel-specific template, besides the color or the title bar, that can't be duplicated in the standard template. In fact, if we want consistency, we should be standardizing the template as much as we can, for both Israeli localities and for other localities in Palestine or Egypt or Ghana. There are some things, like the depopulated villages infobox, that has things that would be difficult to translate into the standard template, but I dont see how that is the case here. nableezy - 21:40, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
I think that you aren't seeing the problem of complication, as a long-time Wikipedian. Imagine what it's like for a new user to learn either template. The global one has a gazillion fields, no one can possibly learn them all by heart and understand their quirks. While you are correct that the technical issues can be fixed, the reverse is true as well—there's nothing in the global template that can't be ported into the Israel-specific one. —Ynhockey 22:00, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
I dont think a new user would be able to figure out either one without reading the documentation. They would have no idea was "js" means in the region, or what "pushpin_map" means. The point is that there should be a consistent infobox across all human settlements so far as is possible. I dont really care though. nableezy - 22:58, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Medieval Women Monastics

The article contained about 5 references to Medieval Women Monastics by Miriam Schmitt (Editor), Linda Kulzer (Editor), Mary Michael Kaliher (Illustrator), published by The Liturgical Press (1 January 1996). This book has no connection at all, whatsoever, with Susya! Someone has used this book falsely to reference otherwise valid information. Benqish (talk) 19:56, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Subdivision type in the infobox

Um. Palestinian Susya does not come under District of Israel, neither does the Judea and Samaria Area. Someone who understands these things must include in this section the Hebron Governorate. while fixing the suggestion this is a distinct of Israel, which by definition it is not.Nishidani (talk) 15:45, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

For consideration

User:Brewcrewer removed

In so far as they live in Area C, under Israel martial law, Palestinians cannot dig deeper than 3 feet for well-water unless they obtain a permit.Patrick Strickland,'Susiya: Another Casualty of Israeli Occupation?,' at Counterpunch, 19 June, 2012.

On the grounds Strickland isn't RS. He may have a point technically, though what Strickland says happens to be true. Of course, we aren't interested in the truth. But to verify just read (and any one of a dozen books on water policy there), for example, Robert Fisk, who writes:

no Palestinian can dig a hole more than 40cm below the ground.

‘In the West Bank's stony hills, Palestine is slowly dying,’ Independent, 30 January 2010. I guess stuff like that just makes one's day, esp. if you can get it out of sight. Nishidani (talk) 15:36, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Here's an opinion piece in Ynet by Nasser Nawajeh, the "resident of Susiya and longtime activist" mentioned in the article for interest.(original, +972blog translation) Sean.hoyland - talk 16:05, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
(ec) This diatribe op-ed by someone whose reliability is mocked is not much better. If you were interested in the truth you may want to find a source that says no one, including Jews, can randomly dig holes in a ground full of ancient archeological treasures (which Nablezy removed). I guess stuff like that just makes one's day.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 16:10, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
Brewcrewer, thats just funny. Palestinians cannot dig a hole in the ground anywhere in Area C without a permit, a permit that is almost never issued, see for example here or here. Military orders require a permit to dig any hole deeper than a defined limit. Settlers are not governed under the military regime, but you already know that. An IP made a completely bogus assertion that this is due to priceless antiquities and that it applies to everybody. That is a straight forward lie. Jews in settlements, hell in outposts, dig to their heart's content. And if you would like to challenge Fisk's reliability, which would be fun to watch, RS/N is thataway nableezy - 16:30, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
If you think that unlike Arabs, Jews, are allowed to dig as they please in an area replete with archeological sites you are reading too much polemical crap. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 16:45, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
I did not say that. What I said is that settlers in the West Bank, and Israeli Jews in Israel, do not require a permit to dig a well, as Palestinians in Area C do. What your new friend put in the article was a straight forward lie. To claim that concern for "archaeological sites" is the cause for this requirement is likewise pure nonsense. Please take care not repeat garbage as though it were fact. Thank you. nableezy - 16:49, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
Brewcrewer. Could you kindly desist from insinuating that a description of an institutional practice by Israel on territory it occupies has something invariably to do with 'Jews'. This has absolutely nothing to do with Jews. It's called poisoning the well.Nishidani (talk) 17:17, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Wholesale removal of sources

Brewcrewer, I'm sure you are already aware of this, but to review. WP:RS says that a source is either reliable because of who published it, or because of the expertise of the authors. Are you going to claim that Neve Gordon, writer of a book on the Israeli occupation published by the University of California Press, or David Dean Shulman, writer of a book which, in part, is about his experience in Susya published by University of Chicago Press and author of reviews published in places such as the New York Review of Books, are not reliable sources? If not, revert this edit. nableezy - 16:23, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Review the edit summary. The sentence has two other better sources saying the same thing.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 16:26, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
I read the edit summary. You claimed a piece authored by Shulman and Gordon is not reliable source. Why? nableezy - 16:32, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
There are two other sources cited at the end of the sentence one of which is by the author removed in the third source. If anyone reasonable is of the opinion that the third source is necessary, we'll deal with whether its an RS. Until then the issue is moot save for creating a contentious talk page. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 16:43, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
Im sorry, but you claimed that a piece authored by Gordon and Shulman is not a reliable source. Do you stand by that claim? If so, why? If not, why did you remove it on the grounds that it is an unreliable source? nableezy - 16:50, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Attribution to Amira Hass

In this edit Nableezy removed a relatively harmless attribution to Amira Hass. According to her Misplaced Pages page it appears as if Hass was convicted of defamation in connection with her reporting on Jews living in Judea and Samaria. Taking that into account it would appear that, at the very least, we whould attribute to her any claims she makes about such Jews. Thoughts? --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 16:29, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Where, or when, is Judea and Samaria? And no, Amira Hass, writing in Haaretz, is a reliable source. nableezy - 16:31, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
Nice strawman. The issue is whether an attribution should be removed not whether its an RS. Please respond to the point raised.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 16:41, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
Why would a reliable source that has no other sources disputing what it reports need attribution? When did that become the practice here? Because there are any number of things, including a large number of things you have written, that need attribution to a specific author if that is the case. Amira Hass, and Haaretz behind her, are reliable sources for fact. This is not a "view" that needs attribution, this is not something that any other reliable source disputes. So no, there is no need for attribution. Now you respond to the below, as you seem to be adding attribution for undisputed facts, though you are only doing so for facts that you would dislike having in an article. nableezy - 16:46, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
Putting aside the first half of your comment, you're ordering me to respond to a comment you made 13 minutes ago while personally attacking me? Keep on refreshing your watchlist and wait patiently.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 16:51, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
You told me to respond to you. I did. Now I am asking you to respond to me. Thats how a talk page works. If you refuse, then I assume you have no valid reason for that disruptive edit and as such have your consent to remove the unneeded attribution. Thank you for your cooperation. (and where on Earth are you seeing a personal attack???) nableezy - 16:55, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

And now Levy. Please explain this edit, as it has the distinction of attributing to Levy what Shulman also reports (and is cited for) as well as containing an explicit attribution for a piece published by a reliable source (this is not an op-ed). nableezy - 16:37, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

I had zero objections when I wrote singlehandedly the sections on Susya's Jewish heritage. Where were you? Waiting for the Palestinian side to be mentioned so you could get grumpy? I expect reasonable standards, but not this kind of consistent challenging to sources that no one has worried about. Ta'ayush is certainly a respectable source. I could make a mess of roughly 1,000 Israeli pages in a week if I did what you are doing here, Brewcrewer, since most use sources that would never pass an RS test. I don't, and none of us here intrude and fuss, and moan about poor sourcing there because that kind of game, which you play on I/P articles, is pointless, somewhat vicious and anti-encyclopedic. Nishidani (talk) 17:38, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Regavim

What is the basis to call Regavim a "settler" NGO instead of an "Israeli" NGO? David Shulman's blog isn't RS for facts, and the German source calls them "Zionist". And they say they are located in Israel http://regavim.org.il/en/about-regavim/. Sean Hoyland, please self-revert.Scarletfire2112 (talk) 07:51, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Regavim is of course a settler organization, "subsidized by the settlers' regional municipalities in the territories" . On the other hand, you are right that the German source doesn't call them that and I'm not sure if the presence or absence of the description in the article makes much difference. Zero 08:03, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
No, because it is not "inaccurate". If you would prefer to change it to "settler association Regavim" from the Haaretz source here, feel free. Sean.hoyland - talk 08:22, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
Whereas this source has them as Israeli, and this calls Regavim a "nongovernmental group that combats illegal Palestinian construction". I don't think the latter is preferable, is it? I agree with Zero0000 that no description would be better. The place to hash this out would be on the (non-existent) Regavim article page.Scarletfire2112 (talk) 09:29, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
Since there is no Regavim article, a description of some kind is necessary. Which of the various descriptions or combined descriptions is the most precise and informative for the reader ? Israeli is imprecise. -settler association/NGO is more precise and informative. Including "that combats illegal Palestinian construction" is fine by me as long as it's clear whose law is being referred to. Sean.hoyland - talk 09:46, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
I think "Israeli pro-settler association" is sufficient for here. Scarletfire2112 (talk) 10:16, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
Seems fine to me. Sean.hoyland - talk 11:16, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
I'll just comment. Euphemisms are part of the game. We mention the Civil Administration and are supposed to image a 'civil' Israeli authority acting in defence of some statuary laws applicable to Israel. In fact, it is an orwellianism coined by Ariel Sharon to camouflage the fact that the 'Civil Administration' is an arm of the Defence Ministry and is an organ that supervises the occupation and usurpation of indigenous land rights. I think editors should start to examine whether a defining epithet is required there as well, to clarify that it is, despite the name, not 'civil' but 'military'. So too with Regavim. 'pro-settler' and NGO are euphemisms. The actual documented function of the organization is one of using the Israeli court system to expel Palestinians from their land. They do not work on behalf of settlers ('pro-sttler'), except in weighing it to stop demolition of outposts,: they assist settlers incidentally, by presenting writs and suits in order to undermine Palestinian territorial claims. It is not therefore 'pro-settler' but 'anti-Palestinian'. Their head Rabbi Yehuda Eliyahu is a settler, so is its main snooper, its director Ovad Arad, the whole thing is run by settlers. Its funding reportedly comes from Hakeren Le'atzmaut Yisrael, privately run by a Psagot settler, Nachman Eyal, and local West Bank settlement councils who refunnel them with money they obtain from the Israeli government for settlement exigencies, a kind of activist tax. It has clearly defined political links with rightwing political parties. When I'll get back I'll write the Regavim article, but I suggest that these issues be determined by neutral source-based usage, with great care taken not, as with civil administration, to adopt a euphemism that tacitly embodies a POV, nothing else. What distinguishes it is not that it is 'Israeli' but that it is a settler-run and funded private organization whose leaders and operatives work out of the West Bank. 'Israeli' thus points the readers' eyes outside the actual locus where it operates. Nishidani (talk) 11:24, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

material restored

A large amount of well-sourced material was removed, without discussion, as either POV or not sourced to a RS. The claim that the material is not NPOV is made without any basis, and David Dean Shulman writing in the New York Review of Books blog is a fine source, both because he has been published by high quality academic presses and because the NYR is by itself a reliable source. I've restored the material, though I kept some of the changes. nableezy - 16:37, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Palestinian Susya??? WP:IRRELEVANT

This article is about the Jewish settlement, Susya. Palestinian Susya is WP:IRRELEVANT and thus, the whole last section as well as big parts of previous section should be either deleted or moved to Palestinian Susya. Ashtul (talk) 00:50, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps this article should therefore be called Jewish Susya? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 07:01, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
Nomoskedasticity, Nishidani and whoever else, do you have any opposition to spliting this article into 3. Susya, Har Hebron, Susya, Hebron and Susya, Archaeological Site? Ashtul (talk) 09:40, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
Of course. Not sensible in the slightest. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 10:22, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
Ashtul. No one has ever thought of this as 'problematical' till you came up with the objection, which is fanciful and not policy-based. The proposal looks like futile forking, whose ostensible purpose would be to make all articles where conflicts are part of the history, Araberrein / Judenrein just so everyone could see history laundered of the uncomfortable. Neither history nor Misplaced Pages, as its rather woeful scribe (palsied hand or with attention-deficit disorder) works that way. P.s. stop following me around. I already have to cope with many redinked nuisance editors without extra duties on my plate. Nishidani (talk) 11:29, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
The only reason this came into my mind is the Carmel, Har Hebron article which became the host of Umm al-Kheir information. I can see here it was developed with both town on the page but still, this isn't forking. Each one is totally independent from the other. Not that you would care, but in hebrew there are 3 separete articles. Ashtul (talk) 11:47, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
This article is a joke. It is 3 different sites compiled in one. The info of the archaeological site is clear but no useful info can be found on either Israeli or Palestinian Susya. Ashtul (talk) 08:50, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Blind removalism

Averysoda I have told you before that reliability is always in context. This blind removalism of Mondoweiss everywhere you see it, without checking what the sources say is becoming irritating. Furthermore, you have watered down the language of "The master plan for Susiya was denied by the Israeli Civil Administration", to "No master plan exists" without any justification. A moment's Google search would have turned up these totally WP:RS links, link1, link2 stating precisely what was written: the village did submit master plan, but it was denied by the Israeli civil administration. This sort of careless editing is unacceptable. I have now added these sources to the article. Kingsindian ♝♚ 09:10, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Mondoweiss is an activists' group blog, and not reliable for facts. Period. This is Misplaced Pages policy on self-published sources. There is nothing irritating about its removal, on the contrary, the is something very irritating about editors who seek to introduce this unreliable , marginal , extremist source when they have at their disposable higher quality mainstream sources for the same facts. All Rows4 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 13:18, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
All newspapers are 'activist' in the same sense, i.e., they carry numerous articles by people with very strong views, which influence even their 'factual' reportage. Mondoweiss, to repeat, in the last run-ins at RS/N has had outside input from just two people, both of whom said it may be used according to context. A e-journal with numerous journalists writing for it is not a 'blog'. Many of the articles are field reports, with accompanying videos. Take it to RS/N, because there is no clear cut verdict supporting your repeated suggestion it cannot be used.Nishidani (talk) 13:22, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages has a clear policy that differentiates mainstream newspapers form activists' self-published blogs. Don't like it? Work to change policy. until then, either edit according to policy, or go edit somewhere else. All Rows4 (talk) 13:27, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
Wiki has forums for resolving disputes on policy, which were it clear for all cases, wouldn't require such forums. Use them, as everyone else does, especially when they contradicts your claims.Nishidani (talk) 13:34, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages's policy on self-published sources is clear. Move on. All Rows4 (talk) 13:39, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
And you don't apply it even in the form you construe it as meaning. First of all read WP:RSOPINION. You removed Amira Hass a noted journalist for a centrist newspaper on policy grounds that you then contradict by citing for historical facts (stupid:aerial photographs don't show people who live in the caves there) an unknown quantity Orly Goldklang, deputy editor of the Israeli religious nationalist newspaper Makor Rishon in an op-ed for an online tabloid version of Maariv, and then Arutz Sheva, which by your own asserted criteria cannot be used. Nishidani (talk) 14:42, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
The material I added was also sourced to The Jewish Press- why did you remove that ? And why are you removing an NRG OpEd, by an established journalist, while advocating for inclusion of a self published activists' blog? I am ok with removing both Hass's OpEd and Goldklang's OpEd, both Arutz 7 and Mondoweiss, but I won't consent to your double standards. All Rows4 (talk) 14:48, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
"Israeli religious nationalist" @Nishidani: Once again and especially for you: these words - not curses. :) And what about the same claims to Muslim, etc. media, especially in the countries with a state religion?
Any way, you, as usually, try to "sell" your own POV as a fact. There are different opinions (not decision!) regardind A7, but I've not heard about any RS decisions about Makor Rishon at all. Pls confirm your statement. --Igorp_lj (talk) 15:55, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

@All Rows4: I am just discussing the edit in question here. Let's look at the undisputed facts here. The fact for which Mondoweiss was cited, was able to be found with Googling in 2 minutes. And Googling demonstrated exactly what the quote said, which I added. Why was this not done? And, the language was watered down with no justification whatsoever, based on no source at all, and not even mentioned in the edit summary. If one bothered to read the Mondoweiss source, you can find a UN report linked there, which states precisely this. Planning schemes submitted by the residents to the Israeli authorities, which would allow the issuance of building permits on land that they own, have been repeatedly rejected.

Ignoring all this, you engage in legalism over substance. Since I have no wish to argue over trivial matters, I consent to removal of Mondoweiss source here, because it does not add anything substantially new, which is not covered in the other sources.

If one were interested in improving Misplaced Pages quality, one would check the facts, and add better sources if you didn't find those sources good. Or you can add a tag. There are a hundred different options here.

As to the Hass op-ed, it is not used by itself, it is used together with the Chaim Levison source. Both of them make the exact same point, and it is not disputed by anyone. Reliability is always in context. Hass is a journalist for Haaretz, as well as an opinion writer. However, again avoiding argument over trivial matters, I also consent to removing the Amira Hass source, since there are already 3 other sources for this claim. Kingsindian ♝♚ 15:59, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

I am not arguing the specific edit, I am arguing the use of inappropriate sources. If there are 3 non OpEd sources for a claim made in an OpEd, which can't be used for facts, why add that opEd? Ditto for Mondoweiss - if there are reliable sources making the same claim, why do we need a non-reliable source which can't be used for facts, for the same claim? All Rows4 (talk) 19:42, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
This is not a bartering shop. You flagrantly broke your own rules, and are now negotiating for a poor source that is borderline. Tzvi Ben-Gedalyahu, 'The Saga of ‘Ancient’ Palestinian Susiya –The Town That Never Was,' Jewishpress.com June 30th, 2013
This article bases its claims on statements by Yigal Dilmoni, deputy director-general of the Yesha Council, an interested party, not an authority on the area, its history or population. He represents a settler council's interests in driving out the local residents, whatever their history. By his own admission he was a friend of Yair Har-Sinai, whom he describes as 'the cold-blooded murder of my friend Yair Har Sinai in 2001. He was shot in dead in the head and the back by terrorists while, unarmed, he was tending his flock of sheep.'
I know that story well also, and it was far more complicated. The idyllic side existed, but the only academic authority I know of for the area David Dean Shulman, has another version, which he incidently relates while mentioning the shepherd's widow:

'With them (settlers) is the notorious Black Widow, the widow of Yair Har-Sinai, who terrorized the Palestinians of South Hebron until he was killed in a brawl some years ago. David Dean Shulman, Dark Hope: Working for Peace in Israel and Palestine, University of Chicago Press 2007 p.89

Shulman's book is a peer-reviewed prize winning history of recent events by a field observer and a major scholar.
Zvi Bar'el notes his criminal participation in the killing of a bound Palestinian (possibly a thief) some years earlier (Zvi Bar'el Citizens in enemy territory Haaretz 17 July 2001
So a Yesha Council functionary, whose buddy was killed in Susya, who supports the eviction of Palestinians from Susya, who has no known expertise in the subject, cannot be used for anything related to the history: he is a deeply interested partisan, whatever the source of his views.
The aerial photograph is patent nonsense for a pastoral people who lived in caves, and who were in Israeli records expelled in 1986. Their lawyers even have affidavits recording what occurred when Israelis started fencing off their land at the time.Nishidani (talk) 16:09, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
As I see, according to other RS, Zvi Bar'el's version is already distorted, and you only expanded this distortion, writing "Bar'el notes his (Yair Har-Sinai) criminal participation in the killing". --Igorp_lj (talk) 00:21, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
?every one of your complaints here has its mirror image in the sources you are using - claims by interested parties, from marginal sources. yet you constantly use them. So we need to be consistent - either all of these marginal sources, OpEds and claims by interested parties are in, or they are all out. But there will NOT be a situation where just one side gets to present its POV from Amira Hass OpEds, Group blogs like MondoWeiss, and claims by interested parties. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. If an OpEd by Hass is in, so is an OpEd by GoldKlng. If claims from interested parties like the Palestinians who say they were displaced are presented, then counter-claims by people like Dilmoni will be presented. And if group blogs like Mondoweiss usable in the article, then so is a news outlet like Arutz 7. Double standards will not fly here.. All Rows4 (talk) 19:42, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
I gave reasoned arguments. You just made a statement. It means therefore nothing.Nishidani (talk) 20:20, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
every one of your complaints here has its mirror image in the sources you are using - claims by interested parties, from marginal sources. yet you constantly use them. So we need to be consistent - either all of these marginal sources, OpEds and claims by interested parties are in, or they are all out. But there will NOT be a situation where just one side gets to present its POV from Amira Hass OpEds, Group blogs like MondoWeiss, and claims by interested parties. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. If an OpEd by Hass is in, so is an OpEd by GoldKlng. If claims from interested parties like the Palestinians who say they were displaced are presented, then counter-claims by people like Dilmoni will be presented. And if group blogs like Mondoweiss usable in the article, then so is a news outlet like Arutz 7. Double standards will not fly here. All Rows4 (talk) 20:27, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
To repeat, where in RS/N is Mondoweiss said never to be used on Misplaced Pages, under any circumstances? For the third time.Nishidani (talk) 20:33, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
"To repeat": what about any RS decision about Makor Rishon? ):) --Igorp_lj (talk) 20:40, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

@All Rows4: Your edit is very WP:POINTy and disruptive. In no way can an op-ed from a journalist in the newspaper that she works in, and where she reports on a regular basis, and which is supported by numerous other sources, be compared to the op-ed by a random person, with no corroboration, and in fact, contradicted by the sources already present in the article.

As mentioned many times before: reliability is contextual. You cannot arbitrarily add an op-ed by "one side" and op-ed by the "other side". NPOV does not mean false balance. The correct way to handle the dispute would be to discuss the reliability of the Hass piece, for instance, on WP:RSN or the talk page. Kingsindian ♝♚ 21:07, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

What are you talking about? GoldKlang in not "a random person", she is a journalist, and not just a journalist, but deputy editor of the Israeli daily newspaper Makor Rishon, of which NRG is the on-line edition. This situation is an exact parallel to the Hass case which you describe as "an op-ed from a journalist in the newspaper that she works in, and where she reports on a regular basis,". Hass, in case you don't know, was previously found guilty of libel against that same settler community she is riling against in the that OpEd. I'd have a bit more respect for your position if you also advocated that Nishidani restore the Goldklang OpEd (which was supported by multiple other reliable sources, like the Jewish Press) and then discuss the reliability of the piece, for instance, on WP:RSN or the talk page. But as you are not doing that, I must conclude you are not driven by a desire to adhere to Misplaced Pages policy,mbut simple one-sided POV-pushing. All Rows4 (talk) 03:48, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
You only read half of what I write, don't you? You managed to ignore that my position is that I am happy to remove the Hass source from the article because there are other sources. You totally ignored all my points about corroboration. And you totally ignored my point of not making a WP:POINT. Totally ignored my point of not engaging in false balance, just because there is an "op-ed from one side", add an "op-ed from another side". It's hard to argue sensibly like this. As I said above, since I have no wish to argue over trivial legalistic matters, I am removing the Hass and Mondoweiss sources from the article, because there are already 3 other sources. Kingsindian ♝♚ 07:37, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
No, I read all your argument, and responded to it. Earlier, I pointed out to you that I am not discussing any edit, in particular , but rather the general sourcing used for this article. My point was, and is, that if reliable sources exist for claims made by non-reliable sources, there no need to feature those non-RS in the article. Nishidani is not of the same opinion, and contrary to Misplaced Pages policy, keeps adding material sourced to such sources into the article (with no admonition from you). In response to his latest such action, I told him this is unacceptable, and that if the article is going to include OpEds, they can be OpEds of both sides. There is no WP:POINTyness here - the article as it currently stands is seriously unbalanced, presenting the claims of only one side. It needs to present both sides, and will do so, the only question is which sources will be used. I would be happier if no side used OpEds or blogs, but if this position is overridden, then both sides will use OpEds and blogs - and that was my point in my previous response to you - that the Goldklang OpEd in NRG is an exact parallel to the Hass OpEd in Haaretz - I am not adding it as 'tit-for-tat', I am adding it because it presents an under-represented POV, and is a source of the same quality that you (or Nishidani) are apparently happy to have in the artcile when it is form "the other side' All Rows4 (talk) 09:28, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
For the fourth time. Where is it written that Mondoweiss cannot be used? No editor is an oracle on this, and when disputes on policy interpretation arise the normal practice is to ask RS/N, as I have consistently done. (I agree with Kingsindian's compromise, but that does not entail agreeing to the practice of excluding Mondoweiss from article) Nishidani (talk) 09:38, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
To clarify to Nishidani and others, I did not mean to set some "precedent" about the use of Mondoweiss or op-eds. I of course meant it as a compromise about a peripheral matter.
To All Rows4, I do not operate on the basis of "one side" or the "other side", though I of course have my own POV. "Both sides" are not of equal validity everywhere. I repeat, the Hass op-ed was used on this matter, because it was corroborated with other sources, and nobody disputes it, and Hass is a journalist for Haaretz as well as an opinion writer. You simply zeroed in on the last point, while ignoring the others. The NRG op-ed you used is not corroborated by anything (I do not accept a report in a newspaper quoting a settler's council representative about historical matters as any sort of corroboration), and was in contradiction to the sources already present in the article. There is no equivalence here. If you wish to add that material, make an argument on its own merits.
More importantly, I am not interested in legalisms. This is not a courthouse, nor a bureaucracy. Rules are useful, in that they help in discussion and consensus, nothing more. I agreed on the compromise on this issue because the article content remains the same, and removes a totally trivial irritant. I will however, not agree on the inclusion of the NRG material, unless I hear better arguments. Kingsindian ♝♚ 10:05, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
Yes, your POV is quite obvious. Of course people dispute Hass' account - you just "do not accept" that position , even when it is published in a newspaper article. Unfortunately for you, that's not how Misplaced Pages works. Goldklang is every bit the the journalist that Hass is , and her account is corroborated by other reliable sources, some of which I will be adding to the article shortly. All Rows4 (talk) 11:41, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
For the 5th time, where at RS/N has Mondoweiss been defined as unusuable. As fo

Goldklang is every bit the the journalist that Hass is

  • “Orly Goldklang” 103 google hits
  • Google book hits zero
  • International Awards (peer recognition) zero
(getting tired of seeing this on my watchlist, but the last comment is brazen enough to make me want to intervene): It's a little unfair to do a Google search that's not in the native language of the people you're looking up. If you search in Hebrew, Goldklang has 7,750 hits. I assume the point of repeatedly redlinking her is an attempt to show how non-notable she is, but she has an article on he.wiki (he:אורלי גולדקלנג). This is not a comment on whether her piece is a valid source or not. Number 57 14:30, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
Of course, you see nothing wrong in any one else's comments? I actually checked around to look at some of her opinions. A typical example of extremist hysteria-stoking and abuse of the usual analogy:'If Iran is allowed to enrich Uranium, even without making bombs of it, that is as if the world in 1939 allowed Germany to construct the facilities at Auschwitz without as yet placing the Jews inside the gas chambers”.' You cannot keep playing the WP:RS card to remove notable journalists, and then try to dump unknown provincials in. Nishidani (talk) 16:44, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

In case people have forgotten, the Amira Hass op-ed is no longer cited. The compromise was meant to undercut the basis for precisely this kind of useless discussion. Kingsindian ♝♚ 15:55, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Top of not-NPOV

I've received '500 Internal Server Error' checking the following ref: Applied Research Institute Jerusalem, (ARIJ), 18 September, 1999. So I tried to begin from http://www.poica.org and did reach something as "Monitoring Israeli Colonization (sic! --Igorp_lj (talk)) Activities in the Palestinian Territories":

  • About The Project
    • Monitoring Israeli Colonizing (sic! --Igorp_lj (talk)) activities in the Palestinian West Bank and Gaza is a joint project between the Applied Research Institute in Jerusalem (ARIJ) and the Land Research Center (LRC).

Can someone explain me why should we regard such sources as RS?

Or such NPOV (?) source as "Ta'ayush, Aggressive Zionist body wins court order to demolish Palestinian village, at Jews for Justice for Palestinians" (Jews for Justice for Palestinians) and other such ones.

I do not remember when & where Nishidani praised himself as Susya author what should prove his NPOV. :(
IMHO, it's opposite: it's example of not-NPOV.

The sad thing is that same editors do their best to exclude from any article almost any Jewish / Israeli source what differs from Hass, etc. :( --Igorp_lj (talk) 22:37, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

++

--Igorp_lj (talk) 23:05, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to one external link on Susya. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

Cheers.—Talk to my owner:Online 15:57, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

NPOV

This page is constantly having sourced information removed without any explanation. Al™ 04:59, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

There is a lot of discussion above about material inserted and deleted. Please be more clear about what sourced information you are referring to and why you think no explanation has been provided. Zero 05:16, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
As min, Applied Research Institute in Jerusalem (ARIJ), Jews for Justice for Palestinians & Ta'ayush mentioned in "Top of not-NPOV" above. --Igorp_lj (talk) 21:16, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
There is really is no point in attempting to make page related to this conflict neutral. It's impossible due to one party editing everything to fit one agenda.. Al™ 00:27, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

Call for deletion

This entire page is a lie; it should be deleted; we have 19th century records showing that this village did not exist then and pictures from the 1990s of this area also showing there was no village; this article is political propaganda and never should have been written.

https://books.google.com/books?id=MIUKXuBj5pkC&dq=susieh+palestine&source=gbs_navlinks_s

I think it has a little bit more credibility then an active political organization that has no sources (sources used by wikipedia are supposed to be non-partisan right?)

You think the people who edit this page care about truth? How naive.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.187.216.93 (talk) 01:28, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

Mobile page

On my iPhone wiki app, the page has a title that reads, "Palestinian village, occupied by Israelian colonists". This seems very unbalanced but I can't figure out when can I change it. Any idea? Settleman (talk) 20:28, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

That is the WikiData data. See: www.wikidata.org/Q248002. Vanjagenije (talk) 21:44, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Split?

Brand new user User:Settleman have split this article into 3; I cannot see there was ever a consensus for such a drastic move? I´m removing this, pending further discussion, Huldra (talk) 20:42, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Like I wrote on my talk page, the article is completely unreadable the way it is right now. The archaeological site section is OK but the rest seems like a jungle of events and opinions which makes it very hard to read and understand. In the 'Modern Era' part it goes back and forth between the settlement and the village which isn't comprehensible. It makes complete sense to make 3 articles (the way it is on Hebrew wikipedia) and the way it is done on many other towns like nearby Carmel, Har Hebron, al-Karmil and Carmel (biblical settlement). I think the articles on settlement and archaeological site are readable while the village one require more work maybe creating sections for the different expulsions which will demand much English fluency. Settleman (talk) 21:30, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
What you did; unilaterally splitting, and then running around on a lot of different articles making links to your new articles: that is extremely disruptive, and will end you at WP:AE in no time. I´m undoing it, while we discuss it, Huldra (talk) 22:06, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
Maybe it was a mistake, but instead of working hard now undoing this and then redoing it again, why won't you explain whether you agree or not, and if not, why? Settleman (talk) 06:51, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I think the split is a good idea. I also think threatening someone who has done nothing more than apply WP:BEBOLD with AE is an extremely unhelpful attitude. Number 57 12:20, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Splits, esp. by people previously banned from I/P editing are not acceptable. One could even put a name to this one. And how do you split an article when the geographical coordinates for the Palestinian village and the khirbet Susiya imbricate perfectly, at least until some years ago. They used part of the khirbet as a mosque until driven off.Nishidani (talk) 15:23, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
Splits are clearly acceptable given the Carmel/Carmel/al-Karmil example cited, and the numerous examples we have of separate articles for depopulated Arab villages and the modern Israeli localities established in their place. Number 57 15:59, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
To repeat: How do you split an article when the synagogue/mosque site was the hearth of the Susiya Palestinian community for a hundred and fifty years?. Carmel/Carmel/al-Karmil are complete messes because we don't know whether in fact one of those karmels was our Susiya. I didn't agree with the previous split, which was stupidly motivated by Ashtul, and I don't agree with this proposal by a newbie who has an almost identical voice. All one obtained was hiving off into reciprocal invisibility two overlapping continguous realities, so readers are not disturbed by the complexities of an interwoven history. All of those article will remain stubs, because there's nothing to do with them. This at least has the benefit of a historical articles embracing the vicissitudes of one site. lastly, since it has emerged as a strong possibility that all of these Susiyas are on the one ottoman title, any move until this is clarified is premature. We should not be imitating the apartheid practices of the military administration by discursive mirroring.Nishidani (talk) 16:17, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
I'm not Ashtul or any other previous editor!!! Whatever grudges someone has with him, keep it for him.
The settlement Susya is in a whole different location and only named after the archaeological site. Mitzpe Yair, an outpost of Susya, has its own article but the main settlement shouldn't?
As for the archaeological site and khirbet, Nishidani wrote "those article will remain stubs" but they will both not considered stub at 19K and 34k, a respectful size! Yes another example of where it is done Katzrin and Katzrin ancient village and synagogue. Settleman (talk) 08:42, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
@Huldra. Aren't you the forerunner of creating duplicate articles of Israeli geographic entities using the Arab name of a depopulated village? --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 17:50, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
The settlement is as different from the archaeological site as any of the numerous examples above.
For the Palestinian village, I can see the connection though Susya existed for almost 2000 years then possibly used seasonally for 150 years. The fight now is over land that is not the original site (even if nearby). This episode completely take over the article which seems disproportionate and unhelpful. Settleman (talk) 08:23, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Translate

this source (Havakook>{{cite book|last1=Yaakov|first1=Havakook|title=Live in Caves of Mount Hebron|date=1985|page=26|url=https://books.google.co.il/books/about/%D7%97%D7%99%D7%99%D7%9D_%D7%91%D7%9E%D7%A2%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%AA_%D7%94%D7%A8_%D7%97%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%9F.html?id=OaELAAAAIAAJ) has to be verified by translating the relative passage on p.26. The editor who added it should provide the precise Hebrew sentence and an English version to allow third parties to see if it supports the statement made or is, as it appears to be, a WP:OR weaving into the text of that source.Nishidani (talk) 18:57, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

I don't have the book but basically translated from Hebrew wikipedia #2 where the source is cited. Havakook is probably the one source for anyone writing about recent history. Obviously B'tselem and RHR prefer to not highlight the seasonality of the place. Settleman (talk) 14:52, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
@Settleman: Since you are a new editor, I would ask you to keep in mind WP:SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT, and Misplaced Pages:Wikipedia_is_not_a_reliable_source. I will keep this in for now, because the B'Tselem source does say "seasonally", but this should be verified by someone who has read the book. Kingsindian ♝♚ 15:54, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
We don't do copying from other Misplaced Pages articles or other wikipedias blindly. In every page under construction, one must endeavor to verify independently the sources. There is no indication whether the source is RS, for example. The link draws a blank. The information may well be useful, but unless independently examined to verify the quality of the source and the accuracy of the way it is cited, it should be removed. As to seasonality, that is question-begging. Because transhumance pastoralism all over the world involves season transfers from one site (the Arad here) to another (Susya), and stable living in both quarters in the due seasons. It does not imply, nor do the cave dwellings, impermanence. The way the source is harvested suggests that there is something contingent and ephemeral in such pastoral practices, which happens to be contrafactual, esp. if the Susya area farmers actually purchased Ottoman title to it in 1880, which appears to be the case.Nishidani (talk) 16:11, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

I have found a tangential reference to this here (pg 13). The spelling "Havakook" is different, but I think it is the same source. It states: "It should be noted that the state, in giving its reasons, relied on the research of Ya’akov Habakkuk, who found that at least some of the villages of the area are permanent communities". This should be clarified at the very least. Kingsindian ♝♚ 08:35, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Please see below. Settleman (talk) 07:38, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

"Seasonally" in the lead

A B'Tselem source is being used to insert the word "seasonally" in the lead. Here is a much better B'Tselem source which discusses the "seasonal" claims in detail. It does not support this, and in fact argues against it (pg 18-20). Consequently, I have removed this from the lead. Kingsindian ♝♚ 08:46, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

The report you qoute state specifically "This report does not deal with the village Suseya, which lies outside the closed area. Israel is also trying to expel its residents, but it is a separate case."
If you understand Hebrew I will recommend watching this recent event at Van Leer Jerusalem Institute. Settleman (talk) 07:37, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
Whatever it says, it is not wp:rs. Pluto2012 (talk) 07:40, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
Not sure why it was removed again. B'tselem source say Susya was seasonal and the other B'tselem source says "This report isn't about Susya. I should be this week in Jerusalem and have a chance to go to library. Settleman (talk) 08:20, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
Where is the specific text stating that Susyans were seasonal since 1832? If the dots are connected, fine. If they are not, it is WP:OR.Nishidani (talk) 08:32, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
@Settleman: You are correct in your statement above, my new source is talking generally about cave dwellers in this area. There is lot of confusion here. See for example here - Currently about 250 people live in Khirbet Susiya on a regular basis, and some 100 others live in it for part of the year, as their livelihood is seasonal. This point is quite important so I would like an unambiguous source here. The way I read it, the other B'Tselem source is simply saying that they were living uninterruptedly since 1830s on a seasonal basis. If and when some of them became permanent residents, is not stated. Kingsindian ♝♚ 10:03, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
@Kingsindian: I have read the book by Yaakov Havakook in the library today. He specify Khirbet Susya as a seasonal location. He lived in the area continuously between 77 and 79 then visited a few more times until 84 and the book was published in 85. I took a photo so I can give an exact translation. There is more evidence to support this and evidence that suggest otherwise is a document by Plia Albeck (though she may have visited during the season) but i'll wait with it until the pages deletion discussion is over so we can write it in an objective way.
The fact the village was (very likely) seasonal doesn't mean that it should be demolished. Some argue it should still be protected under int'l treaties and the land ownership is another issue that need to be addressed in the article. What I'm trying to say is - right now the article doesn't explain any of this. It is a mess of incoherent information on a subject that is both complex and explosive. Settleman (talk) 19:49, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
Israeli reports reflect archaeological, not human interests. We have source bias, plus source inadequacy, and the article simple reflects these inadequacies. That transhumance cultures are 'seasonal' says nothing much other than noting tribes engaged in them had two destinations depending on the period, for sowing crops and grazing flocks. That in Israel and under the occupation seasonality disinvalidates claims to land is a convenient political story to allow people from Brooklyn or Moldavia with no historic connections to the area to seize native rezources under the protection of guns wielded by an occupier power which ignores the obligations of ninternational and humanitarian law, that forms part of the picture, complicated by recent evidence that title to land exists in Susya some 700 acres, dating to Ottoman times. This will be clarified (partially) at the next sittings of the court.Nishidani (talk) 10:29, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

French translation

Can someone please translate this for the "Ottoman era" section. Settleman (talk) 07:25, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

There's nothing there for the Ottoman period. He sees a church with three absides facing east, caverns and cisterns, and indulges in some philological speculations over the name. That's all.Nishidani (talk) 10:21, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
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