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Important informationShortcuts WP:AE WP:ARE Please use this page only to: request administrative action against editors violating a remedy (not merely a principle) or an injunction in an Arbitration Committee decision, or a contentious topic restriction imposed by an administrator, request contentious topic restrictions against previously alerted editors who engage in misconduct in a topic area designated as a contentious topic, request page restrictions (e.g. revert restrictions) on pages that are being disrupted in topic areas designated as contentious topics, or appeal arbitration enforcement actions (including contentious topic restrictions) to uninvolved administrators. For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard. 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Some of the behaviour described in an enforcement request might not be restricted by ArbCom. However, it may violate other Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines; you may use administrative discretion to resolve it. More than one side in a dispute may have ArbCom conduct rulings applicable to them. Please ensure these are investigated. Closing a thread: Once an issue is resolved, enclose it between {{hat}} and {{hab}} tags. A bot should archive it in 7 days. Please consider referring the case to ARCA if the outcome is a recommendation to do so or the issue regards administrator conduct. You can use the templates {{uw-aeblock}} (for blocks) or {{AE sanction}} (for other contentious topic restrictions) to give notice of sanctions on user talk pages. Please log sanctions in the Arbitration enforcement log. Thanks again for helping. If you have any questions, please post on the talk page.

Peter Gulutzan

Collect

Dukisuzuki

Settleman

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Settleman

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Nomoskedasticity (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 08:42, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Settleman (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

WP:ARBPIA, "general 1RR restriction"

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. 20 August 2015 14:00. This edit is a revert by virtue of substantially repeating this edit, which adds the paragraph that begins "According to Regavim...". Both edits are intended to convey the notion that the village did not really exist before 1986. No talk-page consensus supports doing this.
2. 21 August 2015 7:56, straightforward deletion of text added by another editor

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

I ask that the 1RR violation be dealt with on its own "merits"; the editor has participated on the talk page Talk:Susya and has therefore undoubtedly seen the prominent notice about "active arbitration remedies". There are other issues of POV-PUSHING we might consider; I think this editor is mainly interested in placing the work of Regavim (NGO) on relevant articles here, and if we don't deal with that issue now we'll likely have to do so soon. I'm also convinced that this editor lacks the constructive attitude necessary for editing in this area; one indication of this is this talk-page contribution, where the final sentence ("But they are fighting zionists so lying is not only acceptable but apparently encyclopedic") is a direct attack on the contributions of other editors -- it indicates Settleman's view that other editors believe that it is acceptable for organisations opposed to Regavim to "lie". Nomoskedasticity (talk) 08:42, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

A recent talk page comment reinforces the impression that the editor is here with a WP:BATTLEGROUND attitude: "Repeating the same speech again and again doesn't make you right, just obnoxious." It also shows the extent of disagreement about this issue that persists on the talk page even now; the notion that Settleman acted per a consensus is simply false. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 20:23, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

Settleman now says that I have not been active at Susya, nor at Grant Shapps which is the article related to the other AE report I filed. Both claims are untrue; Settleman should strike/retract them. (It's not up to me to demonstrate that they're false; it's up to Settleman to demonstrate that they're true.) Anyway, the real cause for concern is when someone is over-active at an article, i.e., edit-warring... Nomoskedasticity (talk) 10:47, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Settleman

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Settleman

Technically I guess I'm at fault but the first edit was a result of a long discussion with Kingsindian and Nishidani which I took for an agreement.

The POV-PUSHING issue it very good description of what I'm doing as I try to change this article from saying "settlers expeled Palestinians many times" to sometimes that is less simplistic and more accurate.

It is interesting a user who didn't participate in the conversation takes the time the analyze the tone I use and even gets deeply insulted. Settleman (talk) 10:21, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

@Georgewilliamherbert: Please note additional discussion on RSN. Settleman (talk) 08:56, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

@EdJohnston: I appreciate your vote. I think full protection will not be constructive. Editors are having good, even if heated, discussions on the talk page and I believe they will all agree the page had evolved in a significant way during the past month. This complaint was filed by an editor with minimal (more like non-existing) contribution who have since filed another complaint for a page on which he isn't active. This is quite a disruptive behavior that does nothing but wasting time (unless it is his official function???). Settleman (talk) 20:13, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

@Nomoskedasticity: You know other editors can see what I said and that you're twisting my words, right? I wrote your contribution was minimal to not existing. You filed this complaint after deleting text in discussion on both the talk page and RSN. 32 hrs later you drop a line in RSN and BOOM, a complaint. Is it 'active'? Sure. Is in constructive? Not in my opinion. Settleman (talk) 18:55, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

@Huldra: Don't recruit 'soldiers' (So, can someone undo "Settleman", please?) and you won't be blamed for declaring a war. Settleman (talk) 19:23, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Kingsindian

While this is a technical WP:1RR violation, and I do think Settleman has a rather obvious POV (I do too, quite his opposite one, and so does everyone in this area), I think Settleman's edits are almost all in good faith. The first edit was made after extensive discussion on the talk page, and had a rough, though not total consensus. See Talk:Susya#RHR_and_b.27tselem_as_RS and many other sections on the talk page. Whatever his real world motive might be, his edits on WP are by and large quite legitimate. This should first have been discussed on the Settleman's user talk page, and if he refused to revert, only then brought here. It is very easy to break WP:1RR in this area, even by mistake. See, for example here, where I broke it by mistake (though the editor who warned me was a sock, that is irrelevant), and here, where I only warned the editor, though he refused to revert. Kingsindian ♝♚ 09:33, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

@Georgewilliamherbert: To clarify the content issue here. The discussion on the talk page is about two kinds of sources. First, Regavim (NGO), and second Rabbis for Human Rights, B'Tselem, etc. The first edit only pertains to the Regavim source. The rough consensus was to use it with attribution, which is what Settleman did in the first diff. The point which Nomoskedasticity is talking about, pertains to the use of the other sources and is Settleman's second diff. Both are reverts, technically, the first one had a rough consensus, the second one does not. The second issue is still being discussed on the talk page. Kingsindian ♝♚ 10:49, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Collect

In cases where an edit is made as a result of talk page discussions, it is clearly not in the same class as a "gotcha" for making an undiscussed revert. WP:CONSENSUS supports the use of "compromise language" discussed on a talk page in search of a consensus, and to make that concept void for the sake of someone being able to say "you addition of 'the' in the lead is a clear 1RR violation - you gonna get banned" would make a mockery of what "compromise discussions" should result in. (Here editors try to persuade others, using reasons based in policy, sources, and common sense; they can also suggest alternative solutions or compromises that may satisfy all concerns. The result might be an agreement that does not satisfy anyone completely, but that all recognize as a reasonable solution. Consensus is an ongoing process on Misplaced Pages; it is often better to accept a less-than-perfect compromise – with the understanding that the page is gradually improving – than to try to fight to implement a particular preferred version immediately) Collect (talk) 12:35, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Zero0000

My view is similar to that of Kingsindian. Although Settleman edits with a strong POV, often at odds with mine, he doesn't fit the standard pattern of armchair activist that the Mideast area of the encyclopaedia is beset by. For a first 1RR violation I'd recommend an official warning as the appropriate response. Zero 12:50, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Huldra

Settleman has from his first edit shown classic WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour, latest today, with this edit: "Your request above is a 'declaration of war'." He has also been involved "slow" edit-war on other articles (besides Susya):

• 2:01, 24 August 2015 remove material
• 12:01, 24 August 2015 remove same material.

Huldra (talk) 13:15, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

User:Georgewilliamherbert: firstly, AFAIK I have edited 2 articles with Settleman: Susya and Regavim (NGO). Susya I edited first 27 June 2014; long before "Settleman" was made as an account. The Regavim (NGO) -article I found because I regularly "stalk" Nishidani and Zero000 (Yes! I admit it!), and they had both edited the article extensively.

As for my warning "A-I alert / DS warning June 15." ; this is the first I hear about it, and there is no indication of that on my talk-page. Huldra (talk) 14:48, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Settleman

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• I don't think acting on the basis of a talk page consensus, subsequent to a single independent revert, is a 2nd revert in a reasonable sense. if that 'screally all it was I'd say not actionable. But I want to inspect the details. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 20:14, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Kingsindian - Ok, yes I see that. But the restriction is on more than 1RR, which would require that we count the first one (which though technically a revert was discussed and consensused first, correct?). I'm viewing this as a case where the first edit is a consensus change which goes to an earlier version, not a "revert" per se. 1RR (and the more general 3RR) are intended to stop disruptive edit warring; the first one is evidently by all review an OK change, the second one perhaps not but has not been fought over just talked over, correct? Basically, I am leaning towards us just calling the first one an edit, and the second one the policy-limited 1RR, and lacking further disruption we call it a day. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 23:00, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Huldra, you certainly are following him around a lot. Your edit he responded to was not as explicit but contained a bunch of WP:BATTLEGROUND issues. And you received a A-I alert / DS warning June 15. Are you sure you want to keep pushing these buttons?... Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 14:13, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
    • (for others) The log date was June 18 not 15, my mistake, but some tech error happened between thr log and page history. Separate discussions snd email to Arbcom unrelated to Settleman. See my talk page. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 15:05, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
• I'd favor closing this with no block of User:Settleman but would recommend two weeks of full protection for the Susya article. The protection could be lifted once consensus is found on the talk page for the disputed matters. EdJohnston (talk) 15:20, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Collect

Arthur Rubin

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Arthur Rubin

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

HughD (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 21:22, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Arthur Rubin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

1. Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Tea_Party_movement#Discretionary_sanctions 5 September 2013
2. Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Tea_Party_movement#Arthur_Rubin_topic-banned 5 September 2013
3. Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Tea_Party_movement#August_2014_.28Arthur_Rubin.29 Arthur Rubin amendment 23 August 2014

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

Disruption of an Request for Comment process through deletion of RfC notices and RfC notice updates for Tea party movement-related RfCs notices prior to the expiration of the RfC discussion period.

1. 24 July 2015 deletion of an RfC notice regarding a Tea party movement article (Americans for Prosperity) from noticeboard WP:RSN with edit summary "Spam"
2. 27 July 2015 removal via OneClickArchiver of an RfC notice regarding a Tea party movement article from the talk page of a closely related Tea party movement article (Talk:Political activities of the Koch brothers, which is listed at Americans for Prosperity#See also)
3. 31 July 2015 deletion of an update to an RfC notice, providing a close date, regarding a Tea party movement article from noticeboard WP:NPOV
4. 31 July 2015 deletion of an update to an RfC notice, providing a close date, regarding a Tea party movement article from noticeboard WP:ORN
5. 31 July 2015 removal via OneClickArchiver of an RfC notice regarding a Tea party movement article from noticeboard WP:RSN

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

1. 5 September 2013 Topic ban as party to Tea Party Movement case
2. 14 December 2013 blocked for violation of Tea Party movement topic ban at Talk:Political activities of the Koch brothers
3. block log
4. 23 August 2014 Amendment request; TBan lifted; indefinite 1RR imposed, with appeal available August 2015

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

• Mentioned by name in the Arbitration Committee's Tea Party Movement Final Decision.
• Previously blocked as a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict, see 14 December 2013 and the block log.
• Previously given a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict on 14 December 2013 by Sandstein (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA).
• Successfully appealed all their own sanctions relating to the area of conflict in the last twelve months, 23 August 2014.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

WP:RFC specifically authorizes RfC notices to one or more noticeboards and the talk pages of closely-related articles. WP:Discussion_notices#Best practices states that "regular updates may be appropriate" and identifies "setting a time for the discussion to end" as a best practice. An administrator of our project failing to model best practices, as expected of all editors in an area of general and discretionary sanctions, emboldens other editors and is seriously frustrating the goals of the Tea Party movement and American Politics final decisions in fostering an acceptable and collaborative editing environment. The reported user's amended remedy has proven ineffective. Respectfully request review of the reported behavior, re-evaluation of the amended remedy, and consideration of a re-instatement of the topic ban.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Arbitration enforcement request notice

Discussion concerning Arthur Rubin

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Arthur Rubin

Hugh already brought this matter up. I can't help it that it got archived without a response from an uninvolved admin. I haven't kept track of Hugh's topic ban, but if it hasn't expired, this is in violation.

As for the edits in question, as far as I can recall, nobody but Hugh ever commented the the edits of his that I reverted weren't spam; technically, making announcements on unrelated pages might not be a violation of WP:CANVASS, but it is still improper. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 04:11, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

WP:RFC does state that announcements of an RfC may be made in various locations, and update announcements may be appropriate, but I'm almost sure that noone has ever posted an RfC notice on all such locations (except WikiProject Conservatism, but including the talk page of an unrelated article and a noticeboard unrelated to this RfC, although one in which the article had been mentioned). — Arthur Rubin (talk) 04:47, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Hugh should have mentioned his topic ban, and it clearly would have applied to this complaint. I think, though, I need to request permission to redact parts of my statement which have been shown to be inaccurate. I need permission because Fyddlestix replied to them, and it would make those parts of his comment look misguided. (I was going to ping GeorgeWilliamHerbert about the topic ban when I got home; I have not figured out how to paste diffs on my smartphone. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 04:56, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Fyddlestix

I'm not gonna comment on whether or not Arthur needs sanctioning here, but I will say that the drama between Hugh, Arthur, and a few other editors (Springee springs to mind) seems to be getting out of control - I really think that admin action is needed to fix this, or it's going to just drag on and on.

See Hugh's previous report of Arthur here , the multiple ANI complaints against Hugh (only 1 of which led to any action), Hugh's own noticeboard complaints and the current report of Hugh at 3RR by Springee - note especially the allegation there that Hugh is being followed from article to article by a few other editors, including Arthur (as I've commented there, I think there's actually some evidence of this).

All that just over this summer, all involving more or less the same small circle of editors, and focusing on a small number of articles like Americans for Prosperity, which was paralyzed for a month by this complete disaster of an RFC. It's a mess; these editors are clearly not even trying to get along, and some of them are clearly "out to get" each other at this point. It needs addressing. Fyddlestix (talk) 22:21, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

@Arthur Rubin:, Hugh did already make a complaint against you here (it's here), but that was about an entirely different issue (namely, NPOV tagging/tag removal). You're incorrect to suggest that nobody ever suggested the posts weren't spam, see the several people defending them when his edits were raised at ANI. As for Hugh's topic ban, it is here. It applied only to "anything related" to Americans for Prosperity, and included "any noticeboard discussions about the RFC, any further debates about the closing, whatever." It was a 2 week ban, imposed August 8, so basically 14 days ago. (@Georgewilliamherbert:, there's your answer, it looks as though Hugh thought he was topic banned from raising this until today.) Fyddlestix (talk) 04:47, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Statement by HughD

@Georgewilliamherbert: An administrator recently recommended stepping back from Americans for Prosperity for two weeks, and I took the advice. After reflection, there was still something that needed to be done. The behavior of an administrator of our project is a very real impediment to fostering civility in the area of the Tea Party movement final decision, please help. I was not sure if an AE filing would be a violation, but I was very sure some would argue it was, as demonstrated by the reported user's initial response to this filing, now deleted, please see 23:11, 23 August 2015. Thank you for your consideration of this request. Hugh (talk) 14:43, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

@JzG: This filing is reporting disruptive editing, by an administrator of our project, who is currently under editor sanctions, in an area under general and discretionary sanctions. This filing makes no reference to content and is not a content dispute. Other editors are influenced by the behavior of the reported administrator in deciding how far they can push within the bounds of our Arbitration Committee's directives to us to be "especially mindful" of policy and behavioral guidelines and to "follow editorial and behavioural best practice". This is a very real problem. Please help. Thank you for your careful consideration of this request. Hugh (talk) 14:58, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

@JzG:, @Newyorkbrad: May I respectfully ask, what is the statute of limitations on reports of multiple deletions of RfC notices by an administrator of our project while under editor sanctions in an area under general and discretionary sanctions, approximately? Thank you. Hugh (talk) 16:04, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Result concerning Arthur Rubin

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• Why... Are these being made three weeks later?...  ? Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 22:33, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
• I doubt that I am the only one sick of the constant dramas around Hugh's editing. This request is a rather obvious abuse of process in an attempt to gain an advantage in a content dispute. Is a sanction in order for this? For example a six month ban from use of Misplaced Pages process against other editors with whom Hugh is in dispute? Hugh: in response to your point, insert "long stale" and see how that reads back to you. Guy (Help!) 10:12, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
• Decline as stale, which is not to say it would have been a violation if it weren't stale, but Arthur Rubin could usefully be mindful of the concerns expressed going forward. I hear JzG's point about potentially sanctioning the filing part, but at this point I'm not inclined to pursue that either. Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:38, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
• I take serious objection to one comment by HughD. There was no admin "recommended stepping back from Americans for Prosperity for two weeks," and HughD following good advice. I explicitly imposed a topic ban on HughD from the article for two weeks due to a large amount of disruption which resulted in more arguing by HughD at ANI about the ban itself and then a re-iterated comment that any argument about the topic ban would result in a block. I'm staying largely uninvolved but that's not encouraging. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 00:06, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
  • If you think that's not encouraging, take a look at the Americans for Prosperity since Hugh's topic ban has expired, where he has gone directly back to POV pushing on the page, now that other editors have grown tired of his wall of comments on numerous pages. Another editor has even removed the POV tag from the page, even though the POV is even more slanted now. Onel5969 01:57, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Collect

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Collect

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Nomoskedasticity (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 16:32, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Collect (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Collect and others, "Collect is indefinitely limited to one revert per article in any 24 hour period."

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. 23 August 2015, 17:55 Straightforward deletion, removing material added in this edit (with subsequent minor amendments by other editors)
2. 24 August 2015, 12:54 Straightforward deletion after the material was restored following the first deletion, well within a 24-hour period

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

See block log...

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

• Mentioned by name in the Arbitration Committee's Final Decision linked to above.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Having been banned from US politics, Collect appears to be heading towards the same sort of trouble with UK politics. Be that as it may, there's an obvious violation of 1RR here. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 16:32, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

• @Brustopher: Collect's sanction offers the following exception: "This restriction excepts the reversal of unambiguous vandalism." It does not include an exception for BLP violations. The reason for this is that Collect has repeatedly and routinely abused the notion of BLP exceptions. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 17:01, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Brustopher, if you'd like to modify the sanction, there's a process for proposing that. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 17:08, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

• Collect is now touting his "BLP defender" credentials. Let's revisit what the Arbcomm decision said: "Collect's article edits are indicative of incorporating a non-neutral point of view, including added poorly sourced negative materials to certain biographies of living persons". We've been here before: the project is not well-served by having Collect edit-war on BLPs. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 17:27, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
• Report now includes the edit that corresponds to Collect's first revert. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 17:47, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Collect

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Collect

Again. The question here is clearly whether a source that states "Extracts of the get-rich-quick scheme created by the Conservative Party chairman, Grant Shapps, were revealed for the first time last night since it disappeared from the internet." (The Independent) and "To be clear, we have no evidence that this amounted to a pyramid scheme. It just sounds like one." (The Guardian) should be given a section title of Alleged pyramid scheme since neither source makes that allegation, and a "pyramid scheme" is a criminal offence in the UK. Per WP:BLPCRIME, allegations of a criminal act require strong sourcing, and neither source makes the allegation. I consider "neither source making an allegation" meets the criterion of "unsourced or poorly sourced" accusation of criminal acts. I posted the concern immediately at the proper noticeboard, as is required. . My two BLP edits on the article were at 12:54 24 August and at 17:53 on 23 August, with posts to the OP at 23:20 23 August, indicating the BLP issue, and 23:22 on 23 August. One might recall I have had a number of AE "suits filed" in the past three days, and I suggest that the BLP issue here is real and substantive - involving making an unsubstantiated claim that a person promoted a "pyramid scheme" when neither source made such an allegation. Collect (talk) 16:57, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Request RevDel of the attack 'The reason for this is that Collect has repeatedly and routinely abused the notion of BLP exceptions noting that the OP has routinely and repeatedly made that accusation at WP:ANEW and the findings there have generally found that BLP issues did exist. where the finding was the material was likely BLP violative but I had not specified WP:BLP in each summary; where the issue was whether calling a person or group "homophobe" in Misplaced Pages's voice was proper - later decisions have made clear that calling anyone a "homophobe" is a contentious claim, and is opinion, and so on. I tend to, in fact, be pretty good at treating BLP as a serious matter - no matter who is involved (vide Jeremy Corbyn etc. ) FWIW, the OP seems to follow me a great deal (sigh) Collect (talk) 17:18, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

BTW, thanks for reminding folks that I went to Europe this year (Hermitage etc.) and was absolutely unable to provide full rebuttals at all to the "evidence" in that case, and that I was barred from providing evidence later. Amazingly enough, when one is unable to actually answer charges, and is forbidden to rebut them when one becomes able to do so, it is a teensy bit easier for "decisions" which assume that the lack of rebuttal meant the charges were not contested. But I am sure everyone appreciates your claims that I am a BLP villain of the first water <g>. But what the ... does this have to do with your assertion here that saying someone is alleged to commit a crime when the sources do not say that? Collect (talk) 17:36, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

@JBH - I noted from the get-go that I was going to be away for a substantial period unless you happened to miss all of that. and asked I be given until July to prepare full responses. (reasons include the extended trip and a minor problem called melanoma for which my wife lost about 800 cc of her arm) Recall -- I had presented no evidence against anyone, so my first section was addressing what had been the charges - - while I was unable to even log in, other "evidence" was presented which there was no way in hell I could rebut because I was not around to do so. Had I been given until July, I would have rebutted the thin evidence presented just as I had rebutted all the initial charges (that I called an editor anti-Semitic was one which rankled a lot!). So now that you assert that my trip to Russia was "bull" I know your position all too well (sigh). So I suppose you feel it is ok to label a person an "alleged criminal" - noting that I did indeed go to BLP/N with the issue? Really? Alleging that someone committed a felony is a big deal. Period. Now I would be impolite left to my own here - but I shall avoid that temptation -- and wish your wife the same health my wife will hopefully have. Collect (talk) 22:34, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Request JBHunley be IBanned from mentioning me in any namespace. He has made specific false claims about me. is clear that I would be unable to do much at all until 15 June 2015. ditto. If those posts were not clear to anyone with eyes at all, then I damn well should give in to the infernal harassment which I have mentioned in probably too many places. To be clear - jbh is not the record holder.

Evidence provided of "harassment" (I have over two hundred other diffs if you need them) (editor is easily inferred)

*I'd also invite Collect to provide a diff for the assertion that someone has called him "anti-Semitic" -- that's a serious accusation, and if it's true then there should be a sanction which was odd as I have never on any post said anyone called me "anti-Semitic" at all.

We now have the proposer opposing his own RfC -- so to avoid any further ridiculousness... hatting an open RfC - and I find no rule saying a person posing a question must have a specific answer to the question. since you have a well-entrenched habit of trying to put words into the mouths of other editors, I've decided not to worry about it when you do that to me. Have fun

Consider the likelihood of two editors just accidentally editing the same page within the timeframe indicated: (FWIW - the time difference is generally between my edit and the subsequent edit of my stalker as in some cases it was not a blatant response to my edit or were in different matter on a noticeboard etc.)

Min time between edits

1. Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring 25 seconds
2. Breitbart (website) 56 seconds
3. Talk:Pamela Geller 59 seconds
4. Talk:Frank L. VanderSloot 1 minutes
5. Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard 1 minutes
6. Campaign for "santorum" neologism 1 minutes
7. Talk:Outrage (2009 film) 1 minutes
8. Talk:Michael Grimm (politician) 1 minutes
9. Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons 1 minutes
10. Marco Rubio 2 minutes
11. Talk:Marco Rubio 2 minutes "never heard of talkingpointsmemo" on 21 Nov 2012 ... when he posted in a discussion about sources in 2010 which included it in a list)
12. Talk:Alex Jones (radio host) 2 minutes
13. Misplaced Pages talk:Talk page guidelines 2 minutes (super example)
14. James Delingpole 2 minutes (blatant)
15. Talk:Chip Rogers 3 minutes
16. Talk:Robert Kagan 3 minutes
17. Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard 3 minutes
18. Michael Grimm (politician) 3 minutes
19. Talk:Rick Santorum 3 minutes

19 pages all with a maximum of 3 minutes between editor interactions with my edit being first - what are the odds? Especially considering some comments therein. -- if this is not prima facie evidence of my edits being specifically stalked, I do not know what would be evidence. Collect (talk) 23:16, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

The reason why it does not look like your interactions is because it is the interactions with the OP here - it would be improper for me to address your edits, but reasonable here to show a handful of his edits. I would have a heart attack if you two were the same person <g>. Collect (talk) 23:50, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

@Tryptofish - I had no intention or relitigating anything - but disliked having a person call me a liar where I show the diffs that I said I would not be able to complete evidence in the allowed timeframe. I know I should have told my wife not to have a life-threatening cancer, but I did not think that would be effective, even if we used homeopathic remedies. As a result, I did not have a reasonable opportunity to rebut multiple sets of "evidence" and noted that some wished most of what I did give to be removed as being over the evidence limit <g>. Amazingly enough, cancer is more important than Misplaced Pages. Collect (talk) 00:06, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Apologies to anyone offended - one might get a teeny bit curt with back to back to back accusations, followed by added accusations of lying about asking for added time in the past, and the like. I would kindly ask others to walk in my moccasins, as the adage goes, to see why I might be curt here. Thank you all. Collect (talk) 00:10, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Brustopher

The information reverted is a completely vacuous accusation of a crime which only has a single paragraph of a news article dedicated to it, in which it is written "To be clear, we have no evidence that this amounted to a pyramid scheme." Obvious BLP exception. Brustopher (talk) 16:56, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

@Nomoskedasticity: Well he's not abusing them right now, and WP:IAR exists for a reason. If anything the more serious issue here is you reverting back very weakly sourced allegations of criminal activity into a BLP, from sources that technically don't even allege a crime. Brustopher (talk) 17:04, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Nomoskedasticity, what I'd like is for us to approach the situation reasonably. If what Collect did improved the encyclopedia who cares if it's breaking a rule? Brustopher (talk) 17:12, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Statement by John Carter

You admins who frequent this page more than me probably know this better, but I am getting the impression, oh, I don't know, that maybe, just maybe mind you, Collect is getting a little more attention than most editors in general get around here, this being at the time of this writing the 3rd section of a total of 7 on the page about Collect. I would be the first to acknowledge that if someone is topic banned from an area of content, it would probably be a good idea to avoid that content, even in terms of BLP, copyright, and other issues. The fact that there are so many complaints might indicate that maybe Collect might benefit from a polite warning that maybe he would be well advised to less obviously dance along the dividing line between sanctionable and unsanctionable here, and, maybe, if there is any sort of (gasp) organized or disorganized "let's get Collect" movement here, maybe in anticipation of the increasingly covered US election races, maybe a bit of warning to others about too dogged pursuit of him might not be a bad idea either. John Carter (talk) 17:36, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Tryptofish

I think that much of what John Carter said directly above me is very sensible, and I largely agree. However, it seems to me that the sanction in question makes an exception, explicitly, only for unambiguous vandalism. The content that was reverted was not unambiguous vandalism. This is a content dispute with BLP concerns, but it is not a case of vandalism. It does raise BLP issues, and there was nothing wrong with Collect drawing attention to those concerns without actually making repeat reverts. There are multiple editors who could have actually performed the reversions in this case. The BLP issues do not meet the definition of unambiguous vandalism, particularly in the context of ArbCom's findings in the case, regarding the use of BLP as a justification for edits. I think that this AE filing, unlike the two very recent filings by an IP, does show an attempt by Collect to test limits. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:56, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

At the risk of stating the obvious, it would be a good idea for editors to focus on the filed claim here, and not engage in a general discussion that re-litigates the ArbCom case. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:52, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

@Admins: I think that Floquenbeam's question to Georgewilliamherbert and Newyorkbrad is the right question. The case in point is not a "kicks puppies" issue, but rather a genuine content dispute with BLP playing a role in deciding how to resolve it. The decision at ArbCom was explicit about finding that Collect had misused BLP claims, and the sanction was deliberately created so as not to give exceptions for BLP enforcement. It seems to me that the just-closed final decision at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Arbitration enforcement is pretty clear in that, although it encourages administrator discretion at AE, it discourages administrators from having "the effect of interfering with the enforcement of the Arbitration Committee's decision." I think that ArbCom was quite clear in saying that "I was doing it because of BLP" would not be an acceptable excuse. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:08, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Jbhunley

Not directly pertinent to this particular event but whenever his sanction is brought up seriously Collect claims he was prevented from presenting evidence at ArbCom. That is absolute bull. He spent the entire evidence phase repeatedly stating that he would not present any evidence

• In response to the Case notification he wrote. "Please note that I shall proffer no evidence on any arbitration case."
• Ammended to "Please note that I shall proffer no additional evidence on any arbitration case. This page, in itself, is all the evidence I shall provide."
• "...kindly note that I shall not provide any statement nor evidence not present on this user talk page. " (Which he did. See his talk page)
• Again he makes it pretty clear that he was not going to participate in the Evidence Phase but was going to defend himself on his talk page "If you (ArbCom) wish to copy the entire pertinent material from this page and consider it "evidence" kindly do so, but do not expect me to suddenly change course and do so for you. "

There is more, it was kind of a theme. There is even an entire section in the case on Collect's non-participation. He did however, later, present 3650 words of evidence. He bases his entire schtick of "not being able to defend himself" on the fact that ArbCom did not grant him a 2 month extension which he asked for in the final hours before the close of the evidence phase. He then used the refusal of this request to try to short circuit the ArbCom process (edit summary: proffer if I do not get until 1 July to answer all the "charges" made). However he spins it now he spent the entire evidence phase taking a 'principled stand', then near the close went over the evidence limit by ~75% and now complains that ArbCom did not give him an additional two months! Since this was a planned trip one would think he would have brought it up at the beginning of the case. Of course this way there is an injustice to claim to offset the sanctions. Jbh 21:16, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

• @Collect: I watched/participated in the events leading up to your case pretty closely and I do not recall you making any attempt to say you would be away and unable to participate before the time of the diff I linked. If you can show a diff of where you brought this to the attention of ArbCom and the other participants I will apologize and retract. Anyone who wants to read the history can and they will see you had enough time to carry on about the case on your talk page and to write a 3600 word response. As I said at the time I might have been inclined to support your request if you had made a good faith effort to address the evidence throughout the evidence phase. As the diffs show, you did not.

  As to the BLP, what you are missing is that you are not the arbiter of BLP nor OR nor SYNTH nor anything at all except your opinion. We had a protracted case where this problem was addressed. No matter the BLP violation you can not violate your restrictions. That is the whole point of a bloody ban - it defines certain actions which you no longer may do. Jbh 23:05, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) The ArbCom case was created 23 March 2015 and the evidence phase closed 6 April 2015. You seem to have been pretty active throughout that time . Jbh 23:42, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
• @Collect: You do not get an IBAN just because you do not like what I have to say or because I point out areas where your claims are not fully congruent witth objective reality. Why do you not post an actual link to the editor interaction tool like this. It does not show what you have copy pasted nor have I edited most of the pages you mention at all. I strongly suggest you strike your false claims and apologize. Jbh 23:42, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
• You still must make it clear your accusations of harassment above have nothing to do with me. The editor you dis not name is Nomoskedasticity, the diffs seem to be of his edits maybe the interaction times are as well but you imply otherwise. You asked for an IBAN with me based on a comment I made here which your diff shows was true then you load it up with a bunch of claims having nothing to do with me while making it look as if they do. That behavior appears very deceptive to me. If you want an IBAN present some real evidence. Jbh 00:55, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

However this goes, sanction - not - whatever, the end result will be some sort of drama if Collect manages to pull out a BLP exception to his restriction. Much of the conflict that was addressed in the case had to do with his ideas of "obvious" being at odds with many others view ie the very definition of not obvious. I fear wiggle room will become squirm room will become elbow room will become ArbCom drama fest. I do understand your positions, anyone should be able to revert obvious vandalism and BLP violations. However the whole reason we have restrictions and bans is that some editors have shown that their views of certain policies are not in line with the community's frequently enough that they cause disruption and therefore should be restricted from doing what "everyone can do". In this case Collect has shown he can assess "obvious vandalism" but, in enough cases to be disruptive, not "obvious BLP violations" hence the wording of his 1RR (Excepting obvious vandalism) restriction.

That said I think it would be right, as an exception, to not sanction Collect on this report but it needs to be made clear that if he violates 1RR again claiming BLP he will be sanctioned. Jbh 01:27, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Statement by (Fyddlestix)

Oh dear, we seem to have gone off the rails a bit here. There's no need for rev dels or IBANs that I can see, Collect and JBH are quite capable of getting along - when they're not discussing the ArbCom case - and have worked cooperatively together in the past.

Collect, if you feel that nomo is harassing you you should probably raise the matter at ANI. One thing, though: have you considered the possibility that both you and nomo just watch BLPN really closely, and end up editing the same articles a lot because of that? I know that's often why you and I cross paths, and both you and nomo tend to be quite active there.

I note that Collect has announced that he's taking a wikibreak. Given that, the unusual situation of him having had 3 reports made against him on this page in a very short amount of time, his apology for (understandably) being a little bit testy, and just the general weirdness of this situation (with the IP reports), I personally think this would be a good time for us to cut Collect a break, and for everyone to just move on. It may be that Collect needs to be more careful with reverts and his topic ban - but the hassle of being reported here three times (twice anonymously) seems like more than enough of a reminder of that. Hopefully he will take a bit more care not to violate the restrictions ArbCom placed on him on his return, and I certainly hope that he won't face further anonymous complaints. Fyddlestix (talk) 02:16, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Probably no one cares what I think - but FWIW I've changed my mind on this. I'm convinced by Floquenbeam and JBH's arguments that if we give Collect an inch here, he's likely to take a mile in the future. Using his own personal, often over-zealous interpretation of BLP to remove content he doesn't like is a long-standing issue with Collect, and one of the main reasons he ended up at ArbCom. Plus, I think Floquenbeam is right to worry that giving Collect a pass here will just give him an excuse to flaunt/ignore/undermine ArbCom's decision in the future. Fyddlestix (talk) 01:38, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Settleman

I'm new around here but it seems like Nomoskedasticity is more busy requests against other editors then editing. He wasted my time and now he wastes Collect's. It should be a policy that an editor cannot file these requests unless he has taken meaningful part of the conversation. Settleman (talk) 10:12, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Glrx

An easy part is the purpose here is not to relitigate but rather to enforce. The arbitration discussion did raise the issue of Collect improperly invoking BLP to serve a POV, and a finding had Collect removing reliably sourced material from a BLP. The remedy was 1RR. The remedy was followed by "This restriction excepts the reversal of unambiguous vandalism." The problem is 1RR already has implied exceptions for both vandalism and BLP. I don't read the remedy as excluding the BLP exception. If it intended that, it should excluded the exceptions rather than confirm them. (Sorry for wikilawyering here.)

BLP is, of course, a riskier play; it is safer to post a notice than to revert.

The reverted content gives me trouble. Let me accept that the content is reliably sourced by the Guardian. The content does waffle about a pyramid scheme, but it does describe something that could be a pyramid or a clever way to avoid some legal definition of one. For example, the story does not say the first buyer must share his profits with the original seller. Our article reflects that doubt; the allegation is not in WP's voice. The Guardian does not say the cost is $497 claimed in our article (where did that price come from? why are the prices in dollars?); the Guardian does say it promised making $20,000 in 20 days. Consequently, even if the product avoids the pyramid scheme label, it smells of fraud. The Guardian ties the creation of the product directly to Shapps even though Shapps has now transferred his share of the company to his wife.

I'd like more sources, but the controversy also seems to be part of the Grant Shapps#Pseudonym and second job denials section due to the pen name "Michael Green" (who also authored the $20,000 in 20 days guide). We come back to the Guardian, but there's another source, Buzzfeed (I'm not impressed), and a third source has video of Shapps making a statement that was later retracted. There are some other twists and turns about threatened lawsuits, but I don't have the patience to go through them.

It's thinly sourced, but I think the content survives and should not have been reverted twice.

Given the thinness, I'm reluctant to advocate a block, but Collect should have been more circumspect. I'll second John Carter. Glrx (talk) 16:11, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Collect

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• This is, on the face of it, a straightforward 1RR violation, but the article in question is a WP:BLP and the material is contentious to say the least. I would recommend that Collect is given a shot across the bows and counselled to take it to Talk. I don't think a block will achieve much, this is not an incident where it is worth using the nuclear option. I am inclined to assume good faith, in the knowledge that I may be in a minority in doing so - I agree entirely that it would be legitimate to sanction based ont his edit, I just don't think it's a particularly good idea given the content in question. Just as long as Collect does not repeat the edit ever - this should now be left to someone else. Guy (Help!) 11:16, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Newyorkbrad and Floquenbeam both make excellent points. I guess the consensus will be no block (which I think is correct), but I guess also that we should clarify to Collect that the 1RR has no exceptions other than obvious vandalism, and that even there he should err on the side of caution and hand it off to WP:ANI or some other suitable venue. Guy (Help!) 14:12, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

• Clear 1RR violation; the question is whether BLP violations are intended to be exempt the way clear vandalism is. Considering the wording of the ArbCom remedy, and the fact that Collect's interpretation of BLP was a key issue in the case, that's a clear "no". If Collect wants a BLP exemption to the 1RR restriction, he'll need to request it at WP:ARCA. The question then becomes, is it reasonable to expect Collect to know that BLP is not an exemption to his 1RR restriction? If it was solely up to me, I'd say yes, and block for two weeks (since there's already been a one-week block for a previous violation of his restrictions). But I'm willing to defer to Guy and issue a clear warning instead. If Collect violates 1RR for anything other than obvious vandalism in the future, he'll be blocked for two weeks. If it was boundary-seeking, he found it. If not, then now he knows. If a consensus of other admins develops that this is blockable now, I explicitly don't oppose a block, I'm just inclined to defer to an admin who's already commented. --Floquenbeam (talk) 16:43, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
• I agree with Floquenbeam that the 1RR has no BLP exception (expressio unius est exclusio alterius). I'm inclined to block. T. Canens (talk) 17:21, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
• I've been unimpressed with Collect's conduct in the past, as obviously have ArbCom, but in this instance I don't think there's a case to answer. I don't see a 1RR violation—I can't find an edit that the first diff was reverting, and AE has previously decided that simply removing content is not evidence of a revert in and of itself. Secondly, Collect seems to have behaved entirely reasonably, and above the minimum standard of conduct—his removal was reverted; he reverted the revert with a detailed edit summary and then immediately took the matter to the talk page. It also helps that Collect appears to have honest and well-founded BLP concerns rather than this being a trivial content dispute. I note that the disputed material has been restored but has been partially rewritten in a way that should largely assuage Collect's concerns. I'm not impressed with the filer's conduct in knee-jerk reverting and then filing an AE request instead of engaging on the talk page. I'd suggest this be closed with no action and a recommendation to all parties to move on. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 17:33, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
• Reviewing the sequences, though the BLP violation nature was discussed back and forth, I have a hard time concluding it was anything but a good faith belief that it was a BLP problem, not any boundary testing. There was certainly something BLP-edge in the content, which ever side of policy it landed on. I am sympathetic to suspicions that there's boundary testing, but in this instance the one removal, one revert back to removal with good edit summary and simultaneous taking to the talk page is exactly what we want any editor to do on a BLP issue. If Arbcom wants us to be stricter they can ammend with motion or somesuch. If Collect starts doing more obvious boundary tests or abusive editing again that's a different story and we can clearly act upon those. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 00:55, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
• I agree with Georgewilliamherbert. Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:33, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

@Georgewilliamherbert and Newyorkbrad:, it sounds like you're saying that since he really thought it was a BLP violation, it therefore couldn't be boundary testing, and therefore no block should be imposed. I'm happy to defer on the no-block decision, but it's important to clarify this for next time. To be clear: Collect does not have an exemption on his 1RR restriction for BLP violations; ArbCom limited it to obvious vandalism, specifically (I'm fairly sure) because his judgement regarding BLP was one of the issues in the case. Whether he's doing what we would normally want another editor to do is immaterial; normal editors are not subject to ArbCom-imposed 1RR restrictions. I believe it's also immaterial whether he thought it was a BLP violation or not, but it sounds like you're disagreeing. Are you saying that we should overlook it this time, but similar edits in the future should be sanctioned? Or are you saying that if he does this same type of edit again - two reverts on a BLP-related issue - you would again say it isn't boundary-testing, and therefore not blockable again? Please clarify or expand; I don't think it's in anyone's interests that it is unclear what is going to happen if he violates 1RR on BLP grounds again. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:54, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

If someone puts " kicks puppies" into an article, I'm not going to support blocking any editor for removing it. If it's a less obvious BLP violation, I can see why they might be different, and I'll defer to the consensus here. But we will all look like dummies if bad BLP content stays in an article for a long time, and someone is able to legitimately claim "I would have removed or fixed that but I wasn't allowed to." Newyorkbrad (talk) 22:17, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Floquenbeam: Arbcom didn't say "1RR" it said "1RR except for obvious vandalism", which starts to resemble the usual "3RR except obvious vandalism" which is then separately accounted as "3RR except obvious vandalism (or, clarified elsewhere, BLP violations)". Which to me makes the sanction look a lot like it was intended to mean "take 2RR off 3RR and proceed normally, with all that entails".

Look, if you want "1RR no exceptions" we can do that. We can block editors who remove obvious vandalism, obvious BLP issues, horrid personal attacks a second time after they have been sanctioned etc. AE is entirely capable of being as hardass as Arbcom insists it be. But, I don't support that, except in extreme cases.

Collect is an ongoing PITA on some levels and got case'd and sanctioned over it. But, we've had three cases that EITHER are people trying to hold him to the strictest level of the Arbcom sanction and hitting AE apathy, or are people trying to catch him out using sanctions that were borderline too grey and strict to work, and hitting AE trying to be reasonable. We're getting sanction requests over good edits. Which may look slightly longingly towards testing boundaries, but were still good edits.

If you think he's boundary testing, you're an admin, boundarize him. I don't agree, and the three recent filings were all fundamentally about good edits, and I won't over this stuff. If you want the enforcement to be stricter then Arbcom can quickly whip up a motion to make the sanction clearer or stricter, we'll abide by it, as long as it's enforcable.

"1RR except obvious vandalism" can be "1RR except obvious vandalism or BLP issues", or the other way "1RR except obvious vandalism, no exception for BLP issues", or even "1RR with no exceptions". Or 0RR.

AE has been exceptionally hardass on people in the past and was ill-liked as a result, resulting in unfortunate outcomes. I don't want that. I also don't want people ignoring or cheating on legitimate needed Arbcom restrictions and getting away with it. They were behaving badly and the findings were needed. Even a good edit can cross a clearly established restriction line, and I would react then (and have, and do, and will).

I don't want Collect misbehaving any more than you do. Actual misbehavior that was short of the restrictions and I'd be looking a lot harder.

Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 22:50, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Both responses are disappointing; NYB's because it has almost nothing to do with the case at hand, and GWH's because it's playing games with the English language. I suppose the result is that eventually Collect is going to get blocked for a long period by an admin who interprets the ArbCom remedy as it is written, and then he will indignantly refer to your comments to explain why it was OK. I've no problem not being a "hardass" now, but I think you're setting him up for failure in the future, by explicitly encouraging him to violate a pretty clear ArbCom restriction. --Floquenbeam (talk) 00:58, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

@Floquenbeam:: My response admittedly was discussing a general case rather than just this specific edit. @Collect:: Floquenbeam's concern is something you need to think about. Newyorkbrad (talk) 13:13, 27 August 2015 (UTC)