Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 14:36, 5 August 2006

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Hello, Schlafly, and welcome to Misplaced Pages! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

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Personal attacks

Please read Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks, Misplaced Pages:Civility, Misplaced Pages:Wikiquette and Misplaced Pages:Vandalism. You keep calling actions vandalism which do not qualify as vandalism. This violates rules on civility and personal attacks. Please stop doing this. Guettarda 05:37, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

I call it vandalism when someone persistently removes perfectly good paragraphs without any explanation. If that person disagrees, then he can explain himself on the discussion page where the issues were being discussed. Schlafly 18:53, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

You are kidding, right? Click on the history tab -- you'll notice comments for the edits/reversions. Jim62sch 02:39, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

No, I am not kidding. As I write this, the last 2 edits for the history of Kansas evolution hearings is:

02:58, 12 January 2006 Cyberevil m (Reverted edits by 24.225.245.81 to last version by FeloniousMonk)

02:57, 12 January 2006 24.225.245.81 (give both sides of the issue)

So someone (not me) inserted a couple of useful giving the view of the Kansas Board, and one minute later a vandal just removed it with no explanation except to revert to the last version left by one of his fellow vandals.

The next day, FeloniusMonk explained on the discussion page that the view of the chairman of the Kansas Board should be excluded because it is too similar to the much-hated Discovery Institute, and because there is already another quote from a Kansas Board member that is more easily ridiculed. I guess FeloniusMonk is conspiring with the other vandals. An article on the Kansas hearings should have the view of the Kansas board, as well as that of the critics. Schlafly 07:36, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Silly internet question

Are you the Roger Schlafly? Rkevins82 02:47, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Diff cryptanalysis discovery, rediscovery, and rerediscovery

During the development of DES at IBM (moving from the Lucifer design toward DES with some 'guidance' from NSA), members of the IBM team discovered differential cryptanalysis, asked NSA about it and were told to keep it quiet. After Biham and Shamir published it after their discovery Don Coppersmith admitted that the IBM folk had known about it, and that IBM had asked them to keep mum about it. So it should stay in cryptography as an illustration of the intellectual disorder secrecy can foster. Besides, it's amusing.

I think I can understand the reason for including Merkle and stressing that RSA was second after DH encryption/decryption, though I'm not sure I'd say it quite the way you chose too.

In addition, was it you who removed ElGamal from the mini list of signature algorithms? If so, why? ww 03:13, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps I should explain over on the Talk page, and maybe no one will see this. I am just trying to be factual.

I am not sure the IBM DES story is an example of intellectual disorder. I doubt that the IBM team discovered differential cryptanalysis. I am not sure IBM had to keep mum about it. I posted some messages to usenet:sci.crypt where some people may have some more info.

The case can be made that Merkle is the true inventor of public key crypto. It is odd for the discussion to not mention him at all. Some other Misplaced Pages pages explain his story. So I added a mention of him.

Yes, I dropped ElGamal signatures because they never caught on in the form that he published. It just isn't true that ElGamal signatures are popular. DSA signatures are similar to ElGamal. Roger 05:33, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Awkward welcome

Hi. Are you by any chance this Roger Schafly? Welcome!

I'm a former Misplaced Pages admin with nearly 5 years of contributions here. Please let me help you learn from my mistakes! :-)

If you're interested in contributing to hot controversial subjects like Intelligent Design, let me give you a few pointers.

And if I've confused you with someone else, why then, welcome anyway! ;-) --User:Ed Poor 19:02, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the welcome. The ID articles are hopelessly biased, and maintained by evolutionist zealots who will reverse any changes within minutes. No, I am not going to bother getting into a fight with them. An article on ID should present the ID viewpoint as might be stated by a follower of ID. Roger 22:32, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I suggest you read WP:NPOV, WP:RS and WP:V. The bottom line is that articles do not have to be sympathetic to what they are about. If you want that, I suggest you try Wikinfo which encourage's the writing of sympathetic articles. JoshuaZ 12:22, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I've read those pages, and the evolutionist contributors are violating those rules. I am not looking for pro-ID articles. I am not pro-ID myself, and I would not be the best one to write such an article. I just think that an article on ID or ID movement should clearly and accurately describe the ID beliefs as professed by the ID proponents before launching into criticism.

As an example of my objections, the ID Movement article starts by implying that the Discovery Institute wants ID to be taught in public schools. When I point out that the DI explicitly denies that, the evolutionist contributor say that the DI is obviously insincere.

I don't personally know whether the DI is sincere or not, and maybe no one else knows either. But Misplaced Pages is not the place for anonymous contributors to express doubts about the sincerity of an ideological opponent. If there is a reliable source that documents evidence of insincerity, then perhaps that might deserve a footnote on the page describing DI.

I've run into problems before with these evolutionist contributors. In an article about the Kansas hearing, I wanted to insert the precise changes that were being made to the curriculum. The texts are all online, so there is no disputing the facts. But the evolutionist contributors would only allow paraphrased and slanted descriptions of the changes. In some cases, I would insert a brief factual item, and someone would remove it within minutes without any comment or justification. Roger 17:49, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Don't confuse spin with facts. The DI repeatedly said they wanted ID taught in public schools. They only changed their tune on that when Dover came around. This is well documented. Your other comments similarly lack merit. JoshuaZ 18:43, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Such removals of properly sourced information is against Misplaced Pages policy. Perhaps we can work together to ensure that the 'opposing view' gets a fair hearing. --Uncle Ed 18:46, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Here are the facts. Currently, the Intelligent design movement article starts by saying:

The intelligent design movement is ... Chief amongst its activities are a campaign to promote public awareness of this notion; the lobbying of policymakers to include its teaching in high schools; and legal action, either to defend such teaching or to remove barriers otherwise preventing it. ... The intelligent design movement is a product of, and continues to be driven by, the Discovery Institute, a conservative Christian think tank.

But, as the article later concedes, the Discovery Institute is "against the teaching of intelligent design".

If there is documented evidence that the DI has changed its tune, then that evidence can be put on the Discovery institute Wiki page. But it is just not correct to say that the DI is lobbying policymakers to include teaching DI in high schools.

This is just one example of gross bias. The evolution-related articles are filled with examples like this. I understand that many evolutionists hate the DI for various reasons, but there is no excuse for misstating the DI positions when they are so easily checked by reading the DI web site. Roger 19:44, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

If this is your best example, the articles are in pretty good shape. "Chief amongst its activities are a campaign to promote public awareness of this notion; the lobbying of policymakers to include its teaching in high schools; and legal action, either to defend such teaching or to remove barriers" That sentence is talking about the intelligent design movement, not the DI, so your objection doesn't apply to that sentence. Next sentence "intelligent design movement is a product of, and continues to be driven by, the Discovery Institute, a conservative Christian think tank" That's also true. Nowhere does it say that the DI currently pushes for it to be taught in schools (IMO, it seems clear that it does when you look at their involvement in Ohio and Kansas, but that would be original research and so the article doesn't say that. ) Your objection seems to come to down confusing the antecedents. JoshuaZ 22:31, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

So where is the documentation for those chief activities? The contributor pointed to the DI as the justification. If not the DI, then who is it?

There is usually no mystery about the goals of a movement. Just check their web page. There is no excuse for getting it wrong.

No, it is not my best example. It is just one of the things that is wrong with the first paragraph in one article. Very little in these articles is neutral or objective. Roger 23:39, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Kansas evolution hearings

You may want to read WP:3RR. JoshuaZ 18:00, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Block

Hi. You have been blocked from editing for having violated WP:3RR. Please be more careful in the future. El_C 23:30, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I did not violate the Three-revert rule. That rule on WP:3RR states that there is an exception for reverting potentially libellous material. It says, "All users are encouraged to remove unsourced or poorly sourced derogatory information about living persons, whether within a biography of a living person or elsewhere ..." The page on the Kansas evolution hearings called 19 witnesses "creationist" when their testimony says otherwise. For a couple of days, I challenged the contributors to document their claims, and they could not. Even after finding dozens of references, none pointed to any of those witnesses saying that they were creationists.

Perhaps some of them are creationists, I don't know, but any such claim that they are creationist should be documented. The entire testimony of the witnesses is readily available online, so there is no excuse for false or unsourced statements about their testimony.

I don't know who El_C is, except that he has a picture of the Communist Che Guevara on his Wiki web page. He did not participate in the discussion about the changes. Others made dozens of changes, and they are not blocked. I can only assume that he is making some sort of Communist statement by blocking me. Roger 00:43, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Fascinating. Feel free to appeal my decision through whichever channels you see fit. El_C 02:02, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

If you feel a block is in error, you can use the unblock template to protest it. However, I would point out that: 1) El C is a longstanding admin. 2) No edits you have done seem to be any that would incur communist reprisal. 3) If you look at the WP:3RRV report page you will see that multiple other admins agreed with the block. 4) In general, making personal attacks (such as accusing admins of making blocks based on personal ideology) are against policy and guidelines, can result in longer blocks and will at minimum not make uninvolved admins as inclined to unblock you. 5) You did not make any claim that you were removing the material due to libel concerns. 6) I and Felonious pointed you to where in the transcripts the claim was sourced and where he got his sources from. 7) In any event, it is very hard to see how a general characterization of the majority group of witnesses (without singling out any) could ever be libel, especially given that most of the witnesses are public figures. 8) Finally, nothing in the claim was defamatory or derogatory so it couldn't be libel anyways Unless you claim that claimed association with the Discovery Institute is inherently negative or that being a supporter of creationism or intelligent design is a negative thing. JoshuaZ 02:16, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

This is worse that I thought. Some anonymous admin can block me, and I am subject to longer block if I point out that the admin has a Communist symbol on his web page?!

At no time did JoshuaZ or Felonious document that any of those witnesses were creationists. Felonious did document that some of them signed a DI petition, but that does not necessarily make them creationists.

The block was apparently at the request of FeloniousMonk, but he was the one who agreed on the discussion page that it was better to give specific citations for specific witnesses. Roger 05:57, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

No, making personal attacks in general can result in longer blocks. If you claimed that you had been blocked because El C was a capitalist or was neo-conservative or a classical conservative, or an anarchist, or a liberal, or whathave you the result would be the same. Furthermore, the comment about uninvolved admins was a matter of diplomatic advice: even if you are completely correct, insulting people will make bystanders less likely to take the time to see if you are correct. On a different matter, I note that you seem to have dropped the libel claim. Am I to take it that you acknowledge that the claim holds no water and that that it is a post facto justification? Also, if you want individual claims, all you need to do is take the creationist citations I already gave you in the transcripts and move those citations over to the main page. The fact that you did not do so suggests that you simply don't want the matter there and don't really care about sourcing. JoshuaZ 14:36, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I have not dropped any claim. I removed false and unsourced derogatory info about living persons, in accordance with Misplaced Pages policy. For that, El_C has blocked me.

If JoshuaZ has some source to justify assertions in the Misplaced Pages article, then he should add them to the article. I have not seen any such sources, either privately or publicly.

I guess JoshuaZ thinks that it is insulting for me to point out that El_C has a Communist on his web page. Roger 00:37, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

The context made it clear that you intended it as an insult and as a bad thing. Don't prevaricate. JoshuaZ 03:35, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I only know 2 things about El_C - that he chose to use his admin power to block me and that he has a Communist on his web page. I am not prevaricating. I do think that it was a bad thing to block me for following Misplaced Pages policy, and that Communism is a bad thing. I also don't agree with JoshuaZ repeatedly making false and unsourced derogatory comments about the witnesses in the Kansas article. Have I made myself clear? Roger 05:58, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

You know, you're unblocked now so you don't need to keep making noise. Oh, and thanks for agreeing that you did intend the communist comment as a personal attack (since you've now explicitly said that you consider communism "a bad thing.") As for making "false and unsourced derogatory" comments, if you had been paying attention I gave you the sources well before this, but in my last edit to the page in order to make it painfully clear, I put them in by individual witness. Now, I suggest you drop this and get back to being a productive editor. (I've noticed that some of your crypto related edits are quite good). JoshuaZ 06:08, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

You breached the three revert rule, and above, you fail to assume good faith, untopically (& crudely) polemicizing on what clearly has no bearing for this block. If you breach 3RR again, you will be blocked, again. El_C 14:11, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Roger, there may be some pro-Evolution or anti-Creationism prejudice among a certain group of contributors; some of them are admins as well. However, they are allowed to block you for 3RR violations.

This seems unfair because:

• many of the people who cite you for 3RR are themselves involved in an edit war with you

So the only thing you can do is

• Carefully avoid making more than 3 reverts per 24-hour period to any article (2 is better, and 1 is ideal).
• invite other contributors to look at edits that have been unfairly reverted.

You might ask my help, for example. You can't go it alone. --Uncle Ed 14:36, 5 August 2006 (UTC)