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Clarification

Hi there. I'm a neutral observer from the US interested in history. I was reading this article and was confused by some parts, can someone clarify them?

• "During the Iron Age the houses were huge, small, one roomed buildings. " were they huge or small?

• "In the meantime, a class of middlemen, composed seldom of Jews, who had settled in large numbers in the city following their eviction from Spain after 1492 and welcomed with generosity by the Ottoman, particularly of Greeks and, some time later and to a lesser extent, by Armenians, started to take hold." I assume this is supposed to say that "A middle class, composed largely of Jews, ..." Right?

• "A man named Baseleus was most probably in charge of the city." When? According to whom? Was he the first ruler? Why is he mentioned and other rulers aren't?

• "Greek settlement is attested by the presence of pottery dating from about 1000 BC." does this mean Greeks moved to the city in about 1000 BC? If so, what happened the to previous residents?

• "Combined with written evidence, Smyrna and Chios lay the strongest arguments in Homer's claim." According to whom?

• "The oldest model of a many-roomed-type house of this period was found in ancient Smyrna. Known to be the oldest house having so many rooms under its roof, this house was built in the second half of 7th century BC" The oldest type where? In the world? In the Mediterranean? In Ionia?

• "The city plan in the Bayraklı Mound is the earliest example of this type in the western sphere." Western Sphere of what?

--Awiseman 05:21, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Anyone? --Awiseman 00:35, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I can respond on the "class of middlemen" phrase Awiseman, since I coined it. I tried to put the mention of the Jews first, since there is still a Jewish community in the city. But number-wise, Greeks came first among the "middlemen" for the referred period. We can change it, or I will change it. "huge, small buildings" is definitely an erratum. Cretanforever

How about the other questions? Anybody? --Awiseman 18:50, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Duplicate links

Once there is a link to another article, like Persian Empire, later mentions don't have to be linked - if they are, it makes it hard to read. Thanks --Awiseman 05:40, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

City names in Greek and Armenian

I think the Greek and Armenian names should be added, as the city had large populations of each, and those populations played an important role in the history of the city. This is done on many other cities and other articles. Thoughts? --Awiseman 17:59, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

As I said the Greek name is mentioned in the Etymology section of the article. If it didn't then I would agree with you. As for the Armenians, they were a Christian minority who had business roots in the city, there were more Jews than Armenians. Plus historically Izmir was never an Armenian city. So there you go, please stop reverting.--Kagan the Barbarian 18:17, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

That's not how you discuss something - we need to reach a consensus. I know the Greek name is mentioned elsewhere, but many, many articles mention variant names in the beginning of the article. I also know it wasn't an Armenian city, but maybe the Armenian name shouldn't be in the intro if what you say is true. --Awiseman 18:19, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I've been adding Turkish names to certain Greek cities in the past but if the article had the Turkish name mentioned further down then it was removed from the beginning of the article; I don't see why Izmir has to be an exception. Anyway for now I'll wait but know I am 100% right ;). Laters.--Kagan the Barbarian 18:24, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Just because you do something doesn't mean it's right. As I have said three times, I've seen tons of articles where alternate names are listed in the beginning. And anyway, Izmir was a Greek city for a long time. I think it makes total sense. --Awiseman 18:26, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I think you are missing my point here, its Greek name and root is mentioned in the Etymology section. Will you please read?--Kagan the Barbarian 18:28, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

No, you are missing mine. As I have said many times, many articles mention alternate names in the intro, whether or not it's elsewhere. Will you please read? --Awiseman 18:34, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Look, clearly we're not getting anywhere with this. Let's wait for more discussion. --Awiseman 18:36, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Nice, we are taking progress. Now, you see, if the city's Greek name is mentioned in detail further down in the article, there is no need to give that information at the start. Then again if the article was about the Greek Izmir, then you could write the Greek name as much as you wanted. Do you want me to exhibit examples for you?--Kagan the Barbarian 18:43, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Dude, I understand you. I'm saying it's common in Misplaced Pages articles to have alternate names in the beginning, even if they are discussed further elsewhere. I think it's fine the way it is now or maybe put Armenian lower but leave Greek- it's short and gives information. See Delhi for example, that lists 3 languages! Troy and Tashkent also list a lot. Also, see Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (geographic names), definitely Greek and probably Armenian are relevant foreign names. --Awiseman 19:20, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Genghis of Izmir (otherwise known as Kagan)--introductions by definition repeat stuff contained in the rest of the article--that's the whole point, to give the reader the main points about the subject. The alternate names of a city are important, as they are part of the history, and as Awiseman said, it's common on Wiki. And Armenian history in Smyrna is well known--they were an important part of the city before being massacred by Kemal in 1922. By some accounts, 300,000 were killed, the rest escaped, so I do not count that as a tiny minority.--TigranTheGreat 20:39, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't quite follow. Were these 300000 killed at the same time the British were invaded by China, or before the Russians took over Brazil? MonsterOfTheLake 05:34, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Kağan, check out the Jerusalem page—it mentions the Greek and Latin names at the top, but Israel's only official languages are Hebrew and Arabic! I don't really see people edit waring over there over the names.... —Khoikhoi 00:25, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Because Armenia never owned Izmir, meanwhile Greece and Rome did. You're just cherry-picking facts to support your bs POV. That's why. MonsterOfTheLake 05:34, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Hello Khoikhoi. My Armenian friend here isn't very good with numbers, which he proved in the past numerous times. TigranTheGreat writes 300,000 Armenians in Izmir. And that's only the number of Armenians who died? Puh-lease... as we say in Turkish "Throw in smaller pieces so the birds can eat".

Jerusalem was a Roman and a Greek city in the past (as well as Turkish), Khoikhoi, so it is appropriate to mention its Latin and Greek names at the start but Izmir and Armenians don't have such connection. I think it is more appropriate to mention Izmir's Hebrew name instead of Armenian since they were more crowded than Armenians and there is still a Jewish community living in the city. Armenian name can be mentioned seperately in the history section. Regards.--Kagan the Barbarian 04:24, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Alright, but you removed the Greek name as well (İzmir was a Greek city in the past too, as you already know). What we need is sources on the numbers, can you or Tigran provide any? In regards to the Hebrew name, I'm sure that the Jews of this city only used the language to read the Torah. What language did they normally speak? Ladino? —Khoikhoi 04:55, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I deleted the Greek name because it is already mentioned in detail in the Etymology section. I am more than interested in Tigran to back up his claim of ">300,000 Armenian in Izmir", wonder if he counts the corpses in the cemetaries as well. As for the Jewish community, yes they were -and are- Sephardic Jews and spoke Ladino, I don't know how they wrote Izmir but I can ask our family friend when I meet her. I think it is important to mention the Jewish name because they were and are an important part of the city and thanks to them we have awesome bakery food such as the delicious "boyoz" ;).--Kagan the Barbarian 05:45, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, in my opinion the Greek name should be at the top to conform to other city articles. See Hrodna for example. I know it's already mentioned in detail below, but it doesn't hurt to say it twice, does it? As for the Jews, we do make some great food. :p I can still smell my great-grandmother's kokosh... —Khoikhoi 06:02, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

It is ok to have the Greek name at the start, I don't mind. It is just that on the Chios article I added the Turkish name at the start and someone deleted it saying it is already mentioned further in the article, that's why brought it up here. And it would be nice to have some boyoz right now with tea, it is breakfast time and I have nothing in the fridge :P --Kagan the Barbarian 06:11, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

When was the last time jews owned Izmir? Just leave the Greek part in there, that's the only notable one. The other ones are ridiculous to put in. MonsterOfTheLake 05:34, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Sephardic Jews are more a part of Izmir than Armenians were that's why. As for the Greek name see the explanation below.

Khoikhoi, this is the guy from IMDB that I was telling you about. The one who tried to vandalize my talk page once.--TigranTheGreat 00:49, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I have encountered the 300,000 figure for Armenian victims of the Smyrna massacre before on several websites--unfortunately I don't have them available now. According to Professor Rummel, however, the total number of Armenian victims of the Kemalists' genocide (i.e. in the period 1920-22) can be as high as 550,000 of the remaining Anatolian population:

Most likely then, in total during this period the Turks killed from 325,000 to 545,000, most probably 440,000 of their Armenians--these along with those murdered during WWI.

Considering that a large portion (if not most) of Armenians in this period lived in Smyrna (which was untouched by the Young Turks due to German intervention), the number of Smyrna victims was probably close to 300,000. The Greeks and Armenians were the two largest groups in the city massacred in 1922.

The the city was a major center of Western Armenian culture along with Constantinople. Its Armenian notable history is undeniable.--TigranTheGreat 09:58, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

The Armenian Soviet Encyclopedia gives a lower number of Armenian residents of Smyrna--30,000 in 1915. Which is still significant Armenian presence. Though if Hector and Khoikhoi feel the Greek name alone is enough, I won't protest their removal of the Armenian name (the Greek name obviously should stay)--TigranTheGreat 10:53, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

If I wanted to deal with liars I would have become a lawyer. All of a sudden your humble estimate of more than 300,000 is reduced to 30,000? Izmir, Smyrna, Smyrni, whatever was never an Armenian city, under Ottoman rule Armenians were populated in many cities engaging in commerce, that doesn't necessarily make any of which Armenian. I wouldn't be suprised if 10 years from now you call Los Angeles Armenian, which actually you already are. Feel free to mention its Armenian name in the history section though. Either act like a trustworthy man or I am going to start spending my precious time editing Pornography stubs instead and leave you and others edit warring till the end of free editing in Misplaced Pages.--Kagan the Barbarian 18:27, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

The Forbes Family are from Izmir?

really? seems odd. --Awiseman 18:04, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Really? Your nick's ironic, because you're not. DISS! MonsterOfTheLake 05:34, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Monster, stop attacking other editors just cause u have nothing better to do... U think u are wiser? prove it! Gosh! --Hectorian 10:06, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Monster, it's my actual name. If you have information about the Forbes family, please share it. --Awiseman 14:52, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Sources

Cretanforever, you're saying "according to Serge Trifkovic" for one POV but presenting the other POV ("Greek soldiers, largely aided by henchmen among local Greeks and Armenians, committed atrocities") as an absolute fact. If you want to include the information it shold be phrased like "according to the Turkish government...", as your source does appear to be a government website. See what I'm saying? —Khoikhoi 02:51, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

There's 1 page of preface, and 57 pages of report Khoikhoi, and the report is signed:

The Members of the Commission:
ADMIRAL BRISTOL US Delegate
GENERAL BUNOUST French Delegate
GENERAL HARE British Delegate
GENERAL DALL’OLIO Italian Delegate

I will re-phrase by adding these names. Regards.

And the phrasing I used is from the link itself.

Cretanforever

Fine by me, thanks for your cooperation Cretanforever. :) —Khoikhoi 03:02, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

BTW, why was the footnote in the next paragraph ("The fire started in the largely Armenian Basmane quarter...") deleted? —Khoikhoi 03:14, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

There's a whole article on the fire, and the link is given. It seemed superfluous. I had begun that footnote myself some time ago but then left incomplete, because a distinct article was started. Cretanforever

I see what you mean. Thanks again. —Khoikhoi 03:21, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

During the incursion of the Greek occupation forces, Greek soldiers, largely aided by henchmen among local Greeks and Armenians, committed atrocities against, not only toward the Turkish population, but also to all communities that had been living peacefully in the region for centuries. These atrocities included massacre, pillage, rape and the destruction of towns and villages, as detailed, at an international level, for the period covering May-September 1919, in the Report of the Inter-Allied Commission of Inquiry and further down The Turkish army re-took possession of İzmir, The Turkish side was accused of a number of atrocities against the Greek and Armenian communities, In addition, according to Serge Trifkovic (only one source). Doesn't all these express the turkish POV only? Greeks who massacred, pillaged, raped, destroyed... and Turks who are just accused of a number of atrocities (and only Chrysostomos' case uses the actual word...). so, Cretanforever, would u mind to add George Horton as well? --Hectorian 03:28, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Forgive me, gentlemen, but I think under the rules sources should be published through reputable media. In this case the media is the Turkish government website (which, shall we say, is known for its distortion of facts and quotes). It is not a reliable medium. The quotes could be doctored. --TigranTheGreat 03:38, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

REPORT OF THE INTER-ALLIED COMMISSION OF INQUIRY (MAY-SEPTEMBER 1919)

The Members of the Commission:
ADMIRAL BRISTOL US Delegate
GENERAL BUNOUST French Delegate
GENERAL HARE British Delegate
GENERAL DALL’OLIO Italian Delegate

http://www.sam.gov.tr/perceptions/sampapers/GREEKOCCUPATIONOFIZMIR.pdf

Read the report. Going to work now. See you tomorrow. Cretanforever

This source can be added, if Horton can also be (have in mind that Horton was an eyewitness, and his book on the issue can be found in non greek sources). --Hectorian 04:00, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Don't you think this issue is getting too big and controversial (sp?) to discuss in an article about the modern city of Izmir? These issues should be carried to another article.--Kagan the Barbarian 05:59, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

See my comment above: the whole sentence is clearly POVish and the source is clearly biased (would anyone expect to find something different in the turkish government's website?). in addition, u removed cited info! would it be ok to add what Horton says as well? he was an eyewitness afterall! a biased source will bring another one, if u insist reverting... --Hectorian 06:07, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I think the fire should be mentioned here with 2 or 3 sentences and direct to Great Fire of Smyrna. That way the edit warring here will be resolved.--Kagan the Barbarian 06:16, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

2-3 NPOV sentences or 2-3 sentences mentioning both POV will be right. but if the turkish government's site will be kept as a footnote, i will add Horton! and i know that Turks don't like him at all... but he is 'neutral' enough (with the current definition or 'neutrality' in this article, shaped recently by reverts and edits...) --Hectorian 06:36, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I still think the atrocities by Greeks and Armenians should be stated as "according to so and so report' rather as facts. Just my 2 cents, phrase it however you like--TigranTheGreat 04:18, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Not in the opening line, Smyrna

I respect but disagree with the move to include the other appelation of Izmir - or of any other town - in the opening line. Any other names of a city must appear a few lines further down in the historical synopsis - and only if it is historically significant. The main reason is that this is the norm, but it also avoids controversies. Politis 09:37, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

See the upper conversation - according to Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (geographic names), definitely Greek and probably Armenian are relevant foreign names. I think it's fine the way it is now- it's short and gives information. Look at other cities like Delhi or Jerusalem for example, that lists 3 languages! Troy and Tashkent also list a lot. --Awiseman 14:50, 9 August 2006 (UTC)