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Withdrawing?

I would like to withdraw an RfM I made this morning because I discovered it isn't following policy. Is there a mechanism to withdraw it? Thanks, Kautilya3 (talk) 22:04, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Where is it? Number 57 23:08, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Here: Talk:Paisaci#Requested move 18 September 2015. - Kautilya3 (talk) 23:13, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: I've closed it for you. Number 57 23:16, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

@Kautilya3:, just out of interest, what aspect of "policy" did your request not follow? Do you still think the move should be made, or have you discovered some facts that mean the current title is the correct one? Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 09:11, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

According to WP:NCIN, a transliteration should be used in at least 75% of the reliable sources to be considered primary. I think Paisachi and Paishachi are about equally prevalent and so neither can be considered primary. I intend to file a new RfM for Paishachi which is the so-called "simplified transliteration." - Kautilya3 (talk) 09:15, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

Alright, thanks!  — Amakuru (talk) 11:43, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

can any one move/rename this template to new name

Kindly rename 'زير تخليق سانچو:Barnstar documentation ' to a new a correct , suitable name which is this 'سانچو:Barnstar documentation.--Jogi 007 (talk) 06:55, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

 Not done The page was deleted under speedy deletion criteria.--Aervanath (talk) 05:16, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Technical delete Civility

As an AfC reviewer, I would like to accept Draft:Civility but the AfC tools will not allow until the Civility redirect is deleted first. I don't think this a controversial delete. Is this something that can be handled by someone here? ~Kvng (talk) 21:33, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

 Done @Kvng: DES 21:43, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the quick work. ~Kvng (talk) 21:45, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Template:Inappropriate title-soft

An editor created Template:Inappropriate title-soft on August 26, and requested comments about it. Please feel free to join the discussion at Template talk:Inappropriate title-soft, to either reaffirm the consensus regarding notices of proposed article title changes in mainspace, or perhaps change it. Wbm1058 (talk) 02:30, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Can we formally ban relisters from subsequently !voting

I have recently again seen an editor relist a debate and then !vote in an apparent attempt to sway its outcome. I mentioned this in a couple of recent debates earlier this year and a couple of editors signalled their support for it. Does anyone have any objections to adding this (a ban on !voting for relisters) to the instructions? Number 57 08:45, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

• Sounds odd. I'd prefer to see non admins stop relisting. Admins are held to a higher standard, surely it is not admins playing these games? !Voting to sway and outcome doesn't sound like a shooting offence. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:55, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
  • @SmokeyJoe: The most recent one was a non-admin, but the first time I recall seeing it, it was a very experienced admin who subsequently weighed in with a "strong support" and then continued arguing for some time. It's not a shooting offence, but it's clearly inappropriate behaviour – in a way it's sort of a WP:SUPERVOTE. Number 57 13:47, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
    • Re: shooting: I think Number 57 means "ban the practice of !vote after you relist something", not "WP:BAN those who !vote after they relist something". Ah, the perils of jargon.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ≼  05:27, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
• I'm not sure. Relisting and then voting straight after is obviously poor form, as is relisting a discussion where you're already a participant. But something I occasionally do is relist a discussion and then when it reaches the backlog again, rather than just relist indefinitely, I'll add a vote so that we try and reach a consensus. I'm interested in whether people think that is wrong, or has the perception of impropriety. Obviously if there's a consensus here to institute a blanket rule against relisters voting then I will abide by it. Jenks24 (talk) 13:22, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

This sort of relisting comment is very helpful, thank you for doing that. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:07, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

• I don't see a problem with relisters voting right afterwards, provided that there is obviously no consensus prior to their vote (meaning that the vote that the relister makes is not some sort of WP:SUPERVOTE that goes against the current consensus; doing so is almost akin to some sort of WP:INVOLVED issue) and the discussion hasn't already been relisted a ridiculous amount of times. Steel1943 (talk) 13:55, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
  • @Steel1943: I do see it as being a form of a supervote. Typically it is a discussion that would have had a no consensus outcome (so no move) and the relister then votes in favour – tipping the scales in their favoured direction. Number 57 15:14, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
    • @Number 57: I'd say that the situations would be better judged on a case-by-case basis. I could see someone relisting a discussion, then later on, realizing that they have an opinion that they feel they need to voice. Also, such a discussion probably needs to be listed elsewhere since this concern would probably have to apply to all discussion forums, and not just exclusive to RM. Steel1943 (talk) 15:32, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
• As an admin who reviews a lot of in progress RMs and closes a few in backlog on a regular basis, I think the idea here is a good one. Editors who have already voted in a RM really shouldn’t be relisting it as their motivation is always suspect. As well, editors who relist a discussion really shouldn’t now go and vote in the discussion for the same reason. Since editors can vote anytime, even when the RM is in backlog, if they want to weigh-in on the discussion, they can do so without relisting. Even though relisting is a good practice for keeping discussions without consensus or without participation going, any RM can be closed and decided once it’s been listed for 7 days. So I conclude that editors shouldn’t really be doing both—relisting and voting—in the same RM. Too much opportunity for misunderstanding motivations even if well intentioned. --Mike Cline (talk) 14:41, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
• I have no problem with any editor relisting, admin or non-admin, !voter or non-!voter. All a relisting does is extend the time for discussion, and increase the chance that new perspectives will be provided. Although there has to be finality at some point, I think the first relisting of a discussion should be completely open and available to anyone. bd2412 T 16:05, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
• strongly oppose I don't really see how this is inappropriate at all: ANY editor, involved or not, admin or not, can re-list the discussion, if they feel that the discussion is not yet concluded and more input is needed. If the input that was needed was their own input, then that is also their right to be heard. Relisting isn't a super-vote, because it's not a vote at all; it's not even a not-vote! It's merely an extension of the discussion, and I'm fairly certain we are not working to a deadline.--Aervanath (talk) 20:38, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

• Are you an admin 57 might have alluded to above? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:34, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

• It could be. Like I said, I see no problem with it, and didn't even think of it as anything significant before it was brought up here. Since it wasn't special, it wouldn't have stuck in my head.--Aervanath (talk) 18:51, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

• What if someone makes a habit of relisting every discussion in which their opinion is disagreed with by a slight majority? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:34, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

• @SmokeyJoe:I don't see what difference that makes to the eventual outcome of the discussion. If it's a "slight majority", then that's not consensus, so there's no point in terminating the discussion if someone has another two cents to add. If I feel that I'm bringing a novel argument to the discussion, then there should be time for other editors to chime and and tell me what's wrong with my argument. This whole discussion is mystifying to me, because no one has yet shown me a case where relisting and then !voting somehow changed the consensus. (We do still work off consensus, right? I've been inactive for a while, but I hope we haven't abandoned that ideal completely.)--Aervanath (talk) 18:51, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

I see it as something that can easily irritate some people. A little game to give their own !vote more time of exposure. A difference to the eventual outcome, probably not. A poor appearance, if someone looks like they are playing games, yes. Yes, we certainly do still work to consensus, and the the problem alluded to here is, I think, easily handled by the generally excellent uninvolved consensus-reading closes that are the norm. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:34, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

• Support labeling it inappropriate to !vote on something after relisting it.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ≼  05:29, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
• Probably if another five days after relisting, if no one else comments, it would be OK for the relister to come up with a !vote. But a relist is an administrative action, and administration and partisan contention in a discussion must not be mixed. At the time of relisting, the relister must have no opinion either way. A neutrally worded attempt to focus a RM discussion is obviously OK, even very helpful. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:30, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

• Someone who has already !voted should not relist. Only someone qualified to close a discussion should be allowed to relist it.
• Relisting, then !voting shortly after, doesn't look ideal, but if you honestly only discovered an opinion post-relist, then let's AGF.
• Neutral administrative comments and impartial statements encouraging focus do not count as !votes. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:41, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

• Support labeling it inappropriate. What we are discussing is the somewhat archaic concept known as "a seeming impropriety". I think most editors who relist and then add an !vote are doing so with good intent. They don't intend any impropriety. However, because the possibility exists that they might be gaming the system, relisting and !voting seems improper. We do need to hold those who perform administrative actions (whether they are officially admins or not) to a high standard. They should not only avoid actual impropriety... they should avoid even the appearance of impropriety. Blueboar (talk) 15:12, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
• Support some sort of prohibition. Someone should not be relisting a discussion and then immediately voting; nor should anyone who voted in a discussion previously be relisting. I would allow some latitude for a relister to comment after several days in the scenario Jenks describe above. (I also wouldn't mind seeing less relisting done in general, but that's a discussion for another time. Calidum T|C 15:17, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
• User:Tiggerjay here (edit summary "support and relisting") is probably a typical example. There is no wp:Game play, by relisting Tiggerjay presumably is decreasing the chance of an immediate hasty close that would probably take more notice of his !vote. But the relisting is a nearly meaningless act, except that it could be confusing to newcomers to see the one person playing both advocate and administrator. For this reason, even if no other, relisting while !voting, or after !voting, should be discouraged or prohibited, and !voting after a weeks preceding relist should require an explanation for the change of role. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:22, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

Interetingly enough, TJ also voted on and relisted a move request at Talk:Dissonants in a similar fashion (though with two consecutive edits instead of doing them together). In this case, there was probably enough of a discussion that the move could have been closed as "no consensus" or "not moved" and the relisting wasn't needed, though the result will likely end up being the same. Calidum T|C 03:39, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

This is a really interesting discussion, and thank you SmokeyJoe for tagging me in this as well as specific diffs. After reviewing all of the comments above, along with about an hour of reviewing policies, I believe the core of this discussion comes down to the question of is relisting an administrative action of similar weight to closing? -- since that is what a supervote is really about. According to the closing instructions, "if a discussion is ongoing or has not reached a reasonable conclusion, you may elect to re-list the discussion." I agree with those who believe that a relisting action is non-administrative and is appropriate for any editor to engage in -- as it is simply calling for renewed and additional attention to the request. So long as there is no obvious attempts at votestacking through relisting, I think we can all assume a little good faith. Furthermore, I believe that newer users wouldn't see a relist and a !vote as a supervote. And I that frequent volunteers for RM would know better to evaluate each relist to see if there is bias or not on the topic, and if editor is trying to swing the consensus. Finally a quick look over at WP:RELIST as it related to AFD (although I'm less active in that realm) is equally vauge on this topic as to relistings and !voting.

Directing attention to the diff's brought up:

• At this relist and !vote I am confident that an experienced volunteer would see that it would make no sense that my vote was trying to do anything other than continue to the discussion while weighing in on this topic. If anything the relist was to see if there was any opposition for the move. Which as we can see, there was value in continuing the discussion.
• As to the other, diff brought up - at best it was no-consensus and a relist again was looking for more input.

In both cases, if we were to close the discussion 'as is' the !vote wouldn't have changed the direction of the consensus or lack there of. Which then begs the question, "why vote and relist at all, and instead simply close the discussion" -- the reason generally comes down to my belief that there is still more to be said about the particular move. While I may be !voting in a specific direction, I believe there is value in additional discussion, either based on existing things brought up, or that there might be more people wanting to weigh in on the topic. I believe closing a discussion before it has been completely discussed just because we've reached the 7 day threshold would be counter productive (see WP:NORUSH).

• Also here is yet another situation of a relist and !vote but in this case the relist was because the proposed name change was changed. Perhaps this is an example of what Number 57 was referring to in his initial proposal, since I was !voting contrary to him. However, what complicates this matter is the proposed name changed from what 57 voted against, to a more appropriate title, retaining the "Convention" element.

However with that said, I firmly believe that once !voted, they cannot close a RM (admin or not) -- which I know is not the topic of discussion here, but simply for clarity sake. (Although it appear I did this once back in 2012).

Additionally, we see that this process of relisting and voting does occur currently and historically with both non-admins and admins alike, including BDD and Aervanath - although I agree it should be rare.

With all of that said, I oppose this proposed change, but of course if we find consensus here, I'd abide by it.Tiggerjay (talk) 17:05, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

Not to sound rude, but I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to get across. Relisting (both an RM and AFD since you brought it up) is an administrative action. That doesn't mean only administrators can do it, but that the editor doing the relisting should be uninvolved (the guidance at WP:RM already says relisting should be done by "uninvolved experienced editors"). And for the record, there is no problem with something being closed as "no consensus" provided there has been sufficient participation. In the case of Dissonants, there was. Calidum T|C 18:54, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

• Unrelated to my comments above, I would be in support to have the instructions cleaned up as follows: (1) have relisting information either on RM or RMCI, not on both (or at the very least have RM a stub of RMCI); (2) to clarify that a discussion can be closed simply after the initial 7 day period, without prejudice to a relisting request. Tiggerjay (talk) 17:15, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
• If we ban relisters from voting, they will never be able to vote. Why not tell or encourage them to vote rather than relist instead? Off-topic, but, as for nominators willing to relist, let them if there is no vote yet or just one vote or one support and one oppose. George Ho (talk) 18:06, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Just to clarify, I meant banning them from !voting in the same discussion that they've relisted. Number 57 18:19, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
    • I know that. Still, relisters should have a right to vote. Of course, they should not game it to their advantage. George Ho (talk) 18:52, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
      • Why shouldn't that right be forfeited if they relist? WP:RM already says relisting should be done by an uninvolved editor. This is a logical extension of that. Calidum T|C 19:00, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
        • Actually, "best left to uninvolved experienced editors" implies high recommendation. George Ho (talk) 19:16, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
• In the abstract it may seem that the same person both relisting and voting may be undesirable. It might be helpful to see some examples of actual misuse. The edit by Tiggerjay that was given as an example seems harmless, though it would technically violate the rule that is being proposed here. That particular discussion was struggling to get enough input and is still not closed. If one person did it a lot (relisting and voting) perhaps I would think differently. One of the charms of the RM process is that it's usually so un-bureaucratic. We are usually free of the sizzling resentments of AfD discussions, and you often see people collaborating. As a middle way, how about *advising* relisters who also vote to comment in their vote about what they are doing. Finally, the closer is free to ignore the relisting if they think a consensus already exists and there has been enough discussion. EdJohnston (talk) 19:53, 30 October 2015 (UTC)