| Revision as of 23:56, 15 November 2015 editTrankuility (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers6,028 edits →Changing the title on the basis that "non-binary" is now the more common term: tweak← Previous edit | Revision as of 00:08, 16 November 2015 edit undoFuncrunch (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users14,876 edits →Changing the title on the basis that "non-binary" is now the more common term: SupportNext edit → | ||
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| These citations give more specific support to the term "non-binary" than many of the citations for the article on genderqueer as it currently exists. For example, at least 6 of the current 25 citations list lexicons or articles summarizing multiple different labels. ] (]) 23:53, 15 November 2015 (UTC) | These citations give more specific support to the term "non-binary" than many of the citations for the article on genderqueer as it currently exists. For example, at least 6 of the current 25 citations list lexicons or articles summarizing multiple different labels. ] (]) 23:53, 15 November 2015 (UTC) | ||
| : I've supported using "non-binary" as an umbrella term in preference to "genderqueer" every time this topic has been raised, which it has been multiple times as can be seen on this talk page and archives. Would be good to get more voices weighing in because it seems like the same handful of people (myself included) are normally the only ones talking about this. ] (]) 00:07, 16 November 2015 (UTC) | |||
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Section title: Out genderqueer people
Title makes it feel like it is to be a comprehensive list, and would the fact that we know they are genderqueer already show they are out, i propose changing the title to "notable genderqueer people" or "genderqueer celebritys"
Non-binary
I dislike the term genderqueer. Please change it to non-binary. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.161.254.147 (talk) 05:53, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
- I think this is a valid topic for continuing discussion (it was touched on in the section above). Many genderqueer people see being genderqueer as an identity unto itself, and not a catch-all/umbrella term. Non-binary is probably a better umbrella term to use, especially when it comes to making a list of notable people, many of whom do not explicitly use the word "genderqueer" to describe themselves even if they identify as something other than exclusively male or female. We should still have an article or subsection with the word genderqueer, however, as I commented in the section above, since it is a notable term. Funcrunch (talk) 19:03, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, you're right. 71.161.254.147 (talk) 04:27, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- Since this page seems to treat genderqueer and non-binary as synonyms, and consensus from this page and List of people with non-binary gender identities seems to be that non-binary is the less offensive and more broadly applicable of the two, is there any reason we can't make this switch? Absternr (talk) 18:33, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
- I don't think we've actually reached consensus on that yet, per the discussions earlier on this talk page. Funcrunch (talk) 18:49, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
- Upon closer reading it looks like the major sticking point is the relative commonness of the two terms. That is an important consideration, but it seems like a search engine comparison of "non-binary gender" vs. "genderqueer" isn't a particularly fair measure since the term "non-binary" can be used outside of the phrase "non-binary gender" in this context. Anyway, +1 to the idea of switching to non-binary for clarity and precision, but keeping an explanation of the term genderqueer somewhere on the page. Absternr (talk) 20:22, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
Non-binary identity vs gender roles
Is that all non-binary is to everyone? Gender roles? At least with transsexuals there is physical dysphoria. Shouldn't we be fighting gender roles? So, if a woman isn't a stereotype, she's nonbinary? Wouldn't it be much easier if we just went by sex, and not gender, if that's the case? It's counterproductive. What's wrong with, "If you have a penis, you're male, and if you have a vagina, you're female, and if you have any dysphoria about this, you're trans", regardless of stereotypes? Trans is completely legitimate, but non-binary? Why can't people express themselves any way they choose, without all of this BS? By the way, I've always felt similar to non-binary, though it's difficult to explain. I HATE gender roles though. I see identity (the way I recognize myself and my body) as different from roles and preferences. I'm very egalitarian, and I know that there are butches and tomboys and women who just aren't stereotypes, though still cis. What is non-binary? Explain it in a way that is separate from social roles. My identity is Other and I use the "they" pronoun. It just feels right. But I don't want to be setting things back for men and women and equality. I don't want to escape from my biological sex, when I could be truly trying to make the world better by championing freedom. I don't want to distance myself if I could be representing my biological sex through my achievements. And yet there is a weird feeling about my identity. It's like I know I am Other-gendered, regardless of roles or the toys I played with growing up or whatever BS that shouldn't exist in the 21st century. Is there any proof to back this up, that someone could truly be Other, without conflating it with roles and other nonsense? 71.161.254.147 (talk) 09:07, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- This is not a forum so I don't want to get deeply into this topic unless it specifically relates to editing the page. But I need to correct a misconception you have. Many non-binary people, including myself, do experience physical dysphoria with our primary and/or secondary sex characteristics. Just as with binary trans people, some of us pursue hormone treatment and/or surgery, and some do not. Funcrunch (talk) 15:31, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
What about non-binary people who don't feel physical dysphoria? Is it about roles? I'd just like to know what it really is. 71.161.254.147 (talk) 19:44, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- Here's an article that may be helpful. Funcrunch (talk) 20:27, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
But is it about roles? Would non-binary (without physical dysphoria) exist if gender roles didn't exist? I'm not against non-binary folks, I just want to know more. Misplaced Pages is supposed to provide information and knowledge, so I'm not really making this into a forum by asking questions, am I? Is it neurological? Identity is different from roles, right? I just don't see myself as a gender, and I'm also Autistic. Are there any sources that are scientific that can explain the difference between social roles and identity? 71.161.254.147 (talk) 22:05, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
It just seems like dangerous territory, so it needs to be clarified. I mean, I just don't want every girl who likes stereotypically "masculine" things to think they're non-binary, for example. Girls can like, act like, and do whatever they like, and be whoever they are in personality and whatnot. Also, would non-binary people have equal distribution of birth sexes, if it weren't for social factors skewing the results? For instance, there seems to be a lot more females by birth who claim to be non-binary. Is that true? Are there really more females by birth than males by birth who are NB, as well as people of color? Does this have more to do with people wanting to escape roles and perceptions that are culturally restrictive, or do those social factors just get in the way of census results? 71.161.254.147 (talk) 22:37, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- Please read WP:NOTFORUM. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 00:41, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Cultural bias and the arbitrary scope of this article
User:Flyer22 didn't like the tag I added about cultural bias, but the response made to that removal illustrates a point about that cultural bias:in my view, a suggested lack of reliable sources from non-English speaking cultures is not a reflection of a lack of reliable sources, but rather a cultural bias apparent in this article that treats non-binary genders in English speaking countries as somehow unique, and unlike third genders in other cultures. On this basis, I think this article should be merged with Third gender. Trankuility (talk) 11:53, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
- I should add that this is an outcome of some thought about the almost entirely monocultural nature of the List_of_people_with_non-binary_gender_identities. Trankuility (talk) 12:06, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, I reverted your tag (with a followup note here and here). As you saw, my point was that Template:Globalize states, "This tag should only be applied to articles where global perspectives are reasonably believed to exist (e.g., that people in China have a different view about an idea or situation than people in Germany or South Africa). If additional reliable sources for a worldwide view cannot be found after a reasonable search, this tag may be removed." And on that note, my point was that the topic of genderqueer is not widespread. That is, unless we consider the topic of third gender, which is an aspect of genderqueer and is widespread.
- As for your proposal to merge the Genderqueer article with the Third gender article, I oppose since these two topics, while partially overlapping, are distinct. Flyer22 (talk) 13:29, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
- I stand by my position that this is a form of cultural bias, to say that only non-binary identities exist in my culture, and there is no evidence in other cultures. Additionally, numerous Globalize tags exist for different regions, for a reason; they are not the same. Trankuility (talk) 00:04, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
- Technically, though, you added Template:globalize/Eng (which is essentially the same as Template:Globalize). Flyer22 (talk) 13:33, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
We cover the topic as the reliable sources cover them. Do you have sources that are not currently being used? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:43, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
- There are plenty of sources, a mixture of notable English language sources and ones that would be notable but for language differences. For example, sad news regarding a Turkish non-binary sex worker activist of international renown has been widely circulated recently. Ordek is frequently quoted in international news about Turkey, and a Google search for Kemal Ördek, a proper name, turns up "about 387,000 results". The top results definitely relate to the same person. Trankuility (talk) 00:04, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
- In case anyone still thinks Ördek is not notable, the United Nations Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights also commented on the case in a media release yesterday. The omission of Ördek from Misplaced Pages is also a matter of cultural bias towards English language sources. Trankuility (talk) 01:14, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
Changing the title on the basis that "non-binary" is now the more common term
Looking at the available data in several countries, it appears that the term "non-binary" is now more widespread than "genderqueer". Sources include The Guardian My life as a non-binary transgender teacher – and why I’m still closeted, We’re all a bit non-binary inside. So why do we segregate by gender? Greater transgender visibility hasn't helped nonbinary people – like me popularised by people like DarkMatter (spoken word), Jack Monroe and others. Bustle (magazine) have published 12 Questions About Non-Binary Gender Identity You've Been Afraid To Ask, And Real Answers.
The Scottish Transgender Alliance have reported almost 900 survey responses in a UK non-binary survey with related press coverage, such as I can wake up as male or female. Or neither: Young Scot raises awareness of non-binary gender identity in the Daily Record (Scotland). A UK Parliamentary inquiry looked at Law and transgender equality, including employment issues examined in September 2015, including non-binary gender identity. Trans Media Watch has produced an extensive guide to non-binary gender identities.
In Australia, an alliance of organizations has called for the redefinition of the Australian 'X' sex and gender classification to mean "non-binary", these include the National LGBTI Health Alliance, Organisation Intersex International Australia and Transgender Victoria.
Related Misplaced Pages articles include List of people with non-binary gender identities and Discrimination towards non-binary gender persons. The latter cites 10 Myths About Non-Binary People It’s Time to Unlearn] at Everyday Feminism.
These citations give more specific support to the term "non-binary" than many of the citations for the article on genderqueer as it currently exists. For example, at least 6 of the current 25 citations list lexicons or articles summarizing multiple different labels. Trankuility (talk) 23:53, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
- I've supported using "non-binary" as an umbrella term in preference to "genderqueer" every time this topic has been raised, which it has been multiple times as can be seen on this talk page and archives. Would be good to get more voices weighing in because it seems like the same handful of people (myself included) are normally the only ones talking about this. Funcrunch (talk) 00:07, 16 November 2015 (UTC)