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Andreas Heldal-Lund

Hi, Vivaldi -- a while back you added to the intro of Andreas Heldal-Lund a little information to clarify that he opposes the Church of Scientology because of the management being criminal and corrupt. I went to put a citation to his exact words and couldn't find where he'd said it in those words. Could you find the citation, or replace it with a cited quote? Thanks! -- Antaeus Feldspar 00:54, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

It has been a while since I made that comment. Perhaps it is from the video of Andreas in California. I will take a listen to it soon and see if that is the proper source. Vivaldi (talk) 21:40, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

It looks like I sourced it to the XenuTV article, although I don't specifically remember doing so, nor can I recall the exact place in the video where he says the words "criminal and corrupt". The videos are longer than I remember and I don't feel like listening through another 45 minute round of watching them to locate those two words. I believe you can remove the quotes and just state that the video is a source that demonstrates Andreas's viewpoint that he believes in the freedom of religion and the freedom for people to practice Scientology, but that he objects to the criminal abuses of the cult, such as deception and fraud. The video mentions these ideas very quickly in the first few minutes of video number one. Vivaldi (talk) 09:17, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

More about Hyles

I've been following the Hyles controversy for some time and there are a number of things that trouble me, not the least of which is the timing of Sumner's rehash of the whole thing in the July 2003 publication of his paper, the Biblical Evangelist. Hyles, of course, is unable to defend his position. That oddity aside, here are some other peculiar things: 1.) this whole thing seems to have originated with an article by Sumner ("One of The Blights of Bigness," The Biblical Evangelist, October 1, 1988), in which he castigated Hyles, without actually naming him, for sundry sins/flaws/mistakes, et. al. 2.) Subsequent to that article, Sumner alleges to have received an untold number of inquiries and unsolicited (?) information, but names none of them except one deacon in FBCH, Vic Nischik. (Mr. Nischik alleged that Hyles had stolen Nischik's wife, Jennie, and that upon the orders of Hyles Nischik was relegated to being a mere tenant in the Nischik household, while Hyles dictated how the Nischik household was to be run. Nischik further alleged that Hyles lavished gifts of money, cars, etc., on Jennie, while Nischik himself slept on a cot in the basement.) 3.) Mr. Sumner thence followed the October 1988 editorial with another one, "The Saddest Story We Ever Published", The Biblical Evangelist, May 1, 1989, in which he reiterates the earlier article's tone along with what he called "facts." To show how slanted Mr. Sumner's view is, in one of the paragraphs in the May 1989 publication, Mr. Sumner says, in the section titled, "The Mess Permeates All Of First Baptist Church & Hyles-Anderson College", second paragraph: "Before we start, perhaps we should say again that we are not charging Jack Hyles with adultery at this time." and in same section, Item 2 "In 1971, when Jennie first demanded that Vic leave, Hyles came to him and asked if once a divorce had been granted, he had permission to marry her. Obviously, there were no witnesses to this conversation and its truthfulness or falseness should be evaluated in the light of everything else this article reveals." 4.) Mr. Sumner got his information from Vic Nischik and another deacon George Godfrey. Throughout all the articles he wrote, he variously refers to "one lady", "A man who taught", "One man", "a dear brother whom I have long respected", "Another deacon", "one First Baptist deacon", "A student who served as a security guard", "One minister", "a janitor", "two deacons", "a lady", "One of the men", etc., etc.,...yet he never names who any of these people are, which is a curious and, perhaps, convenient omission by Mr. Sumner. 5.) Mr. Sumner enlisted the services of an attorney, one Voyle Glover, to go over the "records" and "facts" Sumner had accumulated. (It should be noted that Mr. Sumner provides not one copy in any of the articles of any of the documents he claims to have had!) Mr. Glover conveniently also, substantiates Mr. Sumner's "position." It should be noted that Mr. Glover was employed by Mr. Sumner. I'm not trying to imply anything, but do find that fact curious. 6.) Messrs. Nischik, Sumner, Godfrey and Glover offer no direct testimony or evidence (besides Hyles or Jennie) from anyone else save Mr. Nischik's daughter, Judy. There are no interviews or depositions offered of the Hyles' daughters or Mrs. Hyles (the latter only "quoted" in snippets allegedly attributed to her without verification.) In short, I surmise that Mr. Sumner had an axe to grind with Hyles because of a ruckus some years before at the Sword of the Lord, when Dr John R. Rice's successor was chosen. It is well known that Mr. Sumner, once a prolific contributor to the Sword wanted that position, but Dr. Rice chose Curtis Hutson over Sumner. Hyles backed Dr. Rice and it wasn't too long after that this whole mess began. -- added by RedlumXoF (talk · contribs · count) on 11:41, 19 July 2006

I would suggest that self-published works by Glover and Sumner are not appropriate to be used as sources for Misplaced Pages articles on subjects other than themselves according to Misplaced Pages policy at WP:Verifiability and WP:Reliable Sources. However, until more editors are involved that support that position, I will refrain from removing that material from the articles. Vivaldi (talk) 21:57, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Ahh Vivaldi, you've returned

Happy Ho Ho's and good editing ! Terryeo 08:04, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

You can't keep a good man down! I did neglect Misplaced Pages for a while, but I'm back, at least for the time being! Take care! 09:07, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Template Logo

You are going against editor concensus when you re-insert that Scientology Cross logo on the template. at: , According to Jean-Baptiste Soufron, host of the Wikimania 2006 copyright forum, the logo on the template did not qualify as "free" and there is no way to create anything imitating the logo and consider it "free." --Davidstrauss 15:54, 4 August 2006 (UTC).  ??? baffles me why you would consider yourself more expert than the expert, Jean-Baptiste Soufron, host of the Wikimania 2006 copyright forum. Terryeo 08:26, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't aware such a consensus was ever reached. Apparently somebody is either misinterpreting Jean-Baptiste or Jean-Baptiste is unfamiliar with the fair use provisions of the copyright law which do allow people to use such images for non-commercial educational uses. The fair-use provision of the U.S. copyright and similar international copyright regulations allow for this type of use for commentary and criticism. I don't mean to put myself above the almighty Jean-Baptiste, but I wasn't made aware that Wiki policy made him the ultimate authority on copyright questions. I also wasn't aware that consensus had been regarding the use of the cross, which BTW is used in other articles about Scientology as well. And I never claimed that the image qualifies as "free". It should be noted that the image is a copyrighted image that belongs to the CoS and that it is being used here on Misplaced Pages as part of the fair-use provisions of U.S. and international copyright law. I'll look into the discussion for the template and see if consensus is indeed to remove the cross, if it is, then I won't revert its removal anymore until consensus changes. Vivaldi (talk) 09:05, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

You are clearly unfamiliar with what constitutes "fair use." It's final context, and templates lack that. Hence, no non-free images are allowed in template space. The "almightly Jean-Baptiste" is actually a primary legal advisor to the Wikimedia Foundation. --Davidstrauss 06:25, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

You are mistaken. I'm very well aware of the state of intellectual property law, including the "fair-use" of copyrighted material and the use or display of trademarks in an educational or critical context. I'm also well versed on the subjects of trade secrets and patents. One can easily have the image show only on pages that are related to Scientology, and if there are pages that do not relate to Scientology in the template, then they should be removed from the template. The template can "see" the final context. Vivaldi (talk) 07:13, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I am also aware of who Jean-Baptiste is and I am aware of his qualifications to speak on the subject of intellectual property law. However, I believe he has erred in his opinion on this matter (assuming that he says what you say he did, which I have not confirmed). It is possible to make the trademarked image show only on those pages that are appropriate and not display in other contexts, such as the page for the template itself. Vivaldi (talk) 07:13, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

And finally, as I previously stated, I do not intend to put the image back in the template. I was recently informed that there is a specific Wiki policy that prohibits trademarked logos in the templates. Such a rule is more than enough for me. I have much more respect for actual Wiki policy rather than individual editor's interpretations of what they supposedly heard some other supposed expert comment on. While I do not believe that you are misrepresenting the situation, I just think it makes sense to go with actual Wiki policy than the word of single editor. I see now that that the images shouldn't be in the templates. I will not attempt to disregard this policy. Thanks for your contributions to Misplaced Pages David. Vivaldi (talk) 07:13, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Schwarz article

Look - I think we got off to a bad start. I feel that articles about living people need to be scrupulously documented. Thus my bold start on the article. I am not challenging that what you have written is true or not - just that it needs to be documented to a specific source. For example, if the courts have ruled in every case against Schwarz then we should be able to find a legal commentator to refer to when we put that information in the article - we shouldn't have to tell people - read all the caes below to verify that claim - thx --Trödel 06:46, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Trodel- You are mistaken that every statement in Misplaced Pages needs to be cited to a single exact quote made by a single individual. I am specifically citing all 80+ cases as proof of the claim that is made in that particular sentence. Counting is not original research, despite your own misguided reading of WP:NOR. Your deletions of quotations that are verifiably and admittedly made by Ms. Schwarz herself and citing WP:NOR as a reason for your deletions shows that you do not have a good understanding of the policies of Misplaced Pages. I would suggest that before you engage in culling material from articles based on your interpretations of WP:POLICY that you gain a better understanding of what the policies actually say and how they are typically applied. Please talk to some other editors with some more experience with applying policy.

And I too am concerned about Misplaced Pages treats WP:BLP. You can read my views on this at Fred Phelps discussion page and the Bill Gothard discussion page, and also on the Sollog discussion page. Vivaldi (talk) 08:31, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

As I said on the talk page - detemining whether the decision is a final determination of the litigation is a legal conclusion not simply counting; thus I disagree - it is clearly original research. I find your attitude concerning a dispute over the application of policy disturbing. I am quite clear on the policy and how it is to be properly applied. That may be (and in many cases is) much different than the way it is typically applied. However, we must do much better - may I suggest you use featured articles, rather than articles whose featured status is being challenged or have not been featured ever, as the standard. For example: Bernard Williams, Joel Brand, or the soon to be promoted Hilary Putnam - compare with Bob Marley which recently failed for lack of references (among other reasons). Another source for application of verification and reliable sources policy is the talk page of Jimbo's article. --Trödel 09:06, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

The final disposition of a case is very clear. It ends with a judges order that says "DISMISSED". It isn't original research to say that when over 80 judges dimiss every single of the plaintiff's claims that it is considered to be LOSING THE CASE. That is COMMON KNOWLEDGE it doesn't require a legal degree.

I find your attitude concerning a dispute over the application of policy disturbing. I am quite clear on the policy and how it is to be properly applied. No you obviously don't. You stated that Ms. Schwarz's writings constitutued original research and you deleted that material based on your flawed understanding of that policy. Whether Ms. Schwarz engages in original research to make her claims is irrelevant. If she got her ideas from psychics or from her alphabet soup is irrelevant. The claim is that SHE MADE THESE STATEMENTS. That is not original research. She readily admits to making the statements and it has been reported on in newspapers that she admits to being the identity behind the usenet posts that post her life story. Your application of the policy against original research is improper and your understanding of that policy is lacking.

Then the newspaper article should be the source - then we don't have the problem --Trödel 10:26, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Barbara Schwarz's own writings about herself on Usenet are the source, and they are verified to be hers because she said so in the SLC Tribune. And we don't have a problem with it. It is common practice for articles about Usenet personalities and in the case of Schwarz we have confirmation that the posts Google are legitimately hers. Vivaldi (talk) 22:46, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

may I suggest you use featured articles We have to work with the sources that are available and make the most of them. If better sources come along that help us improve this article, then I would love to include them. So far almost all of the claims come from 3 seperate newspaper articles, some 80 court cases, and Barbara Schwarz's own admissions certified by a newspaper. Each of the sources is verifiable and reliable. Vivaldi (talk) 09:37, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, and unfortunately, that means, for living people especially, sometimes the article can't include information we know to be "true." What we really need is to find a industrious law student to write an article about this under the "direction" of a prof - then the problem would be solved - I don't know of any who are interested in administrative law and foia - do you :) --Trödel 10:26, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I doesn't matter much if the information is "True" or not. "Truth" is not the standard for inclusion in Misplaced Pages. The standard for inclusion is Verifiability. But I know you have a hard time with this concept (Verifiability), you admitted as much elsewhere. Vivaldi (talk) 22:46, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I am honestly trying to help the article be better. I don't know if you noticed Fred Bauder's edit summary "Cleaning it up a bit is an alternative to blanking and protection." After seeing the request on Jimbo's talk page - I thought the complaint has some merit and started trying to edit it for just this reason. If the article does not get more neutral very quickly - it will most likely be blanked, a stub created and then protected - it has happened before. And while I find it very frustration, I also agree with the policy under which such drastic actions are taken. This policy protects Misplaced Pages, and more importantly protects my investment in wikipedia - I want to see wikipedia become the encyclopedia - and have people everywhere be able to use a comprehensive tool that could, quite frankly, change their lives for better.

Anyway - enough of me on the soapbox. I hope you will sincerely consider the edit changes that I made today. --Trödel 23:33, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes I saw Bauder write, "Cleaning it up a bit is an alternative to blanking and protection." This is the kind of action that really makes Misplaced Pages look bad. An admin threatens to completely remove and protect a well-sourced article if he doesn't get his way. I'm not going to be threatened by Bauder. If he wants to ignore the written policies of Misplaced Pages and singlehandedly decide to remove a well-sourced article that has withstood three AfDs, then he should just go ahead and do it and quit threatening. Blanking shouldn't even be an option that a single admin should make on his own. I wonder why Bauder doesn't take this agressive stand at Bill Gothard, Sollog, or Fred Phelps -- articles that are about living persons that have claims that are actually from unverifiable and unreliable sources. Vivaldi (talk) 00:08, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Jack Schaap's titles

Hello, Vivaldi. I looked at both the link you provided me and everything I could find on his academic background through google. Unfortunately I was unable to turn up any evidence that he has earned or was granted a doctorate anywhere. It's true that the biography you linked me to lists him as having a D.D., but nowhere in the text of it does it mention him ever going beyond a Master's degree. As I said on the talk page of the H-A article, I have no qualms at all about listing any official or honorary titles he has, I just can't find the record of where he has gained one. Thank you, and happy editing, --Kuzaar 14:27, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

His doctorate was from Hyles-Anderson College. It certainly isn't a real impressive degree considering that he was probably in a position to give it to himself due to his position at the school and the church. And as it is noted elsewhere, HAC is a non-accredited school. I'm not sure how Wiki should handle people that have degrees from non-accred schools, especially those that come from seminaries, many of which refuse to participate in the accred process on theological grounds. Many of these folks often use their title "Dr." all the time, like Dr. Falwell and Dr. Schapp. What do you do when someone is called Dr. Schapp, day-in and day-out by everyone that he associates with, but his doctorate comes from a non-accred school? I think Misplaced Pages should not just ignore his title entirely, which appears to be what many editors would do. I think we just need to make sure that it is clear that the degree comes from a non-accred seminary. Vivaldi (talk) 22:47, 11 August 2006 (UTC)