Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 01:31, 7 January 2016

Italy Start‑class Mid‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Italy, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Italy on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ItalyWikipedia:WikiProject ItalyTemplate:WikiProject ItalyItaly Start This article has been rated as Start-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Discrimination Start‑class Low‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Discrimination, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Discrimination on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DiscriminationWikipedia:WikiProject DiscriminationTemplate:WikiProject DiscriminationDiscrimination Start This article has been rated as Start-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the importance scale.

The comment by Silvio Berlusconi on President Obama

This comment has very little to do with racism, but of course it was very difficult to be understood by a non-Italian. In Italy in fact, to be sun tanned is a plus even for an handsome man. In other parts of the world, however, tanned skin is seen suspiciously, as a result of mixing of races. I am sure 100% that Berlusconi was thinking to a positive aspect of President Obama, the Italian way of thinking on this matter. His comment was directed to underline the glamour of President Obama, not to laugh at his African origin. In fact Mr. Berlusconi has many faults, but certainly is not a racist. Among his friends there are people from all Europe, Northern Africa and South America --Deguef (talk) 15:24, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Racism in Roman Empire?

Ancient Romans (of the Empire), differently from other peoples of ancient times, were not at all racist. In fact emperors and generals of the Roman empire had different origin (Spain, Gaul, Balcans, Middle East, Africa). It did not happen for other states, kingdoms and empires (Egypt, Greece, Israel, Persia, Gaul. Germany, etc.). Therefore this sentence is wrong.--Deguef (talk) 15:34, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

That is true. The old Roman and Fascist empires are also not to be confused with the modern nation-state of Italy. 174.93.177.37 (talk) 02:20, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

RfC

BAn RfC: Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. – MrX 17:12, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Alien foreigners

Hallo Cyclopia
no, is not irrelevant, since in this subject there are lately a lot of partial and distorting information coming out. Question: is this info cited in the book in object? Thanks, Alex2006 (talk) 15:58, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, as I told you a couple of times in the edit summaries. It is exactly quoted there. Just click the link in the source and look. I think it is quite a reliable source, being published by Oxford Handbooks, which is a section of Oxford University Press, as far as I can see. If you have better sources (and if you want to help me fixing the terrible state of this article!) be my guest, but I am unsure of what "clarification" is needed. -- cyclopia 16:09, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Hallo Cyclopia, no, I explained myself wrongly: I am interested in knowing if there is a note in the book which refers to this term. The reason is the following: some months ago I started to read a book about this subject by an author cited here, Aaron Gillette. Unfortunately for him, a couple of years ago I have been reading the "Storia degli ebrei italiani sotto il fascismo" by De Felice, and I found out that Gillette had "forgotten" about 50% of the info about a particular subject (the alleged antisemitism of the young Mussolini) in order to demonstrate that he was antisemitic during the war years. This partiality has been confirmed by an interview to a French historian which I found on the web,where he is defined "extremely partial". That's why after that I mistrust these sources. Since I see that you are Italian, I advise you warmly to read the book of De Felice, who could as first use the Archive of the Jewish community in Rome. This book was commissioned (and praised) by the Unione delle comunità israelitiche italiane. De Felice was an historian, and this means - among others - that if he cites something, he tells always in a note where he found it. This I wanted to know from you. I read maybe hundred Italian books about fascism, including primary sources like the diaries of Ciano and Bottai, and I never heard this expression, while I read quite often another one: alloglotti, which means "alien speakers": so were defined the minorities by the fascists, who never could think to define "Alien foreigner" an Italian citizen. For the fascists, someone born and living in the kingdom was Italian, independently from language and custom, period. Defining him/her as a "foreigner" would have been the worst "autogoal" for them. I suspect that these authors mixed up one word for another. Ciao, Alex2006 (talk) 16:38, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

That's a very good point, I acknowledge I am not as acquainted with the subject. Given that the quote is not essential, I can leave it out. That said, I suppose it is extremly hard to disentangle the various views of historicians on these subjects, and I wouldn't go ahead to say who is partial and who is not (De Felice, while extremly respected, has also been criticized a lot, as far as I know). I am working now with what I'm finding online but once at home for the summer holidays, I'll go through my mother's bookshelves -she is an history teacher and has a huge library, including De Felice books. Meanwhile, if you have trustworthy sources with stuff to add, by all means please add. -- cyclopia 16:43, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Unfortunately this is a very "hot" subject: 20 years ago Italians were described as brava gente, nowadays as evil as the Nazi. Both views are partially true (about Italian war crimes you can read for example "Italiani brava gente?" by Angelo del Boca, and people like Preziosi were as evil as Himmler): unfortunately often Anglo-Saxons love to see the world with black-or-white glasses  :-) but reality is always more complex. About De Felice, he has been attacked by the left, because in the seventies he - a former communist - was the first one who dared to challenge the "official history of Fascism" given by the PCI, but now he is considered as the most important Italian historian about fascism and the most important biographer of Mussolini worldwide. In don't think that anyone who attacked him read a single page of his "Mussolini": the figure of the dictator comes out annihilated by this biography, but this occurs telling his history, not doing propaganda. Ciao and keep the good work, Alex2006 (talk) 18:12, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Yep, I'm more or less aware of what you said (especially on De Felice), but not being myself an expert I'm always unsure of what to think about all of this. I've heard about Italiani brava gente, it's a while I want to put my hands on it. I invite you again to help filling in this article. Ciao e stammi bene, grazie dell'input! :) -- cyclopia 18:30, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Grazie a te e saluti da Roma! Alex2006 (talk) 06:41, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Oh hey

Your figures seem to be, as always, false. This article

http://news.panorama.it/esteri/razzismo-classifica-ricerca-Hong-Kong-razzisti-intolleranza-immigrazione

Shows that actually only between 5-9,9% of Italians wouldn't want a foreigner neighbors. As such, Italy is ranked as a non-racist Country (unlike many NON-WHITE Countries... Like India and Hong Kong, hmmm).

The article is in Italian, the map legend and caption are in English. So it's accessible. I ask this information take the place of the fake and biased one in the article opening. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.17.92.163 (talk) 21:51, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

Sending head of pig to israeli embassy by Italians

I do not see anything on the fact of anti-Semitism. rudeness to send the pig's head.Rey.regno 14:40, 13 August 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Reza luke (talk • contribs)

You are welcome to add this to the article, provided it is backed up by reliable sources. --cyclopia 15:16, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Merger Discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Request received to merge Anti-Roma sentiment in Italy to Racism in Italy; date=November 25, 2015. Discuss here. GenQuest 04:24, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

• Support, either summarized into 21st century-section or given its own section.--Zoupan 08:10, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
• Support. If there's is no objection, I will merge into its own section in this article next week. Bad Dryer (talk) 22:38, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose - I see little in the Anti-Roma sentiment in Italy article that could be incorporated into this article. In fact, Anti-Roma sentiment in Italy could be a candidate for deletion under WP:synth: its content seems to consist entirely of incidents that took place in 2007-2008. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 16:17, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

lede

The opening line "

"Racism in Italy has been present throughout the country's history" is a bit vague. Italy was founded officially in 1861, and the first example of racism in the lede is of Mussolini. The first instance in the body is from a work by Cesare Lombroso in the 19th century. Is there maybe a better way to word the opening line or point to the first citation as opposed to jumping to Fascist Italy 70 years later?Trinacrialucente (talk) 21:48, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

@Bad Dryer: I see you reversed/undid my citation of Lombroso being Jewish saying "we don't do that for obvious reasons". What are these obvious reasons? Since Lombroso was Jewish and the "Italian racism" is later cited as anti-Jewish, I would argue Lombroso is not in fact a case of Italian racism (which is a very real phenomenon...not denying that) but of Jewish racism, also a very real phenomenon (see racism in Israel). Trinacrialucente (talk) 05:32, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Oh, dear. Lombroso was an Italian. Thus his racism is a case of Italian racism. We don't call out people's religion unless reliable sources do so. The obvious reason, if I need to spell it out for you, is that what you wrote smacks of antisemitism, which I assume was not your intention. Bad Dryer (talk) 16:08, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Do you know anything about Cesare Lombroso? His own biography/article on Misplaced Pages states he is Jewish. That is not in dispute. Citing someone being Jewish in the context of anti-Jewish laws in that same country is relevant. And I've been editing for awhile, so I couldn't care less if anyone thinks an edit "smacks of antisemitism". Anytime you edit something someone dislikes, it is often immediately branded as "anti" something. In this case my edit is factual and indisputable. You might want to ask yourself why you are making a big deal of this fact. Trinacrialucente (talk) 03:40, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Citing someone's religion in an attempt to make that a prominent feature in some unpleasant aspect of his life is something we don't do on Misplaced Pages. Bad Dryer (talk) 22:05, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Once again, his biography article mentions he is Jewish. Restating it once here is not making it a "prominent feature". It is a statement of fact.Trinacrialucente (talk) 00:18, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

It is appropriate in his biography, not in a random article where he is mentioned. Do you see the religion of any of the other proponents of Italian scientific racism called out in this article? That should tell you something. You are editing inappropriately. Bad Dryer (talk) 00:28, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

Third Opinion

A third opinion was requested. The biography of Cesare Lombroso does not state that he was Jewish. It states that he was born to a wealthy Jewish family. His biography also states that he was an atheist. It is true that being Jewish can be defined either as a culture or as a religion. Since his own biography does not state that he was Jewish, I see no point in making that comment in this article. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:09, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

Actually, I just came across several other sources which state he is Jewish, as well as his own writings on the subject in which he self-identifies as Jewish. Also, he wrote for two Jewish Italian publications. All of these are now cited.Trinacrialucente (talk) 02:30, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Except it's still irrelevant to this topic, which is about scientific racism. The sources merely support that he had a Jewish background, which is fine for his own article, but has no place here. Ratatosk Jones (talk) 04:59, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Not sure how you can make that opinion when he wrote about anti-semitism in Italy as a Jew...which is a form of racism.Trinacrialucente (talk) 05:56, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

He can voice that opinion because (a) he is correct, the sources only say he was Jewish, but not that this is relevant to this writings on racism ; (b) it is established Misplaced Pages policy that we don't call out a person's background - be it racial, religious or ethnic or other - unless it is pertinent to the topic as evidenced by reliable sources making that connection; and (c) this is the consensus on this page - 3 editors have told you that what you are proposing is not acceptable, it is time for you to stop edit warring it back into the article. Bad Dryer (talk) 18:27, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Lombroso writing in Jewish Publications

I VERY CLEARLY cited AND translated the title of Lombroso's book "L'ANTISEMITISMO E LE SCIENZE MODERNE" ("antisemitism and the modern sciences". I also cited the various JEWISH periodical publications he often wrote for. In the case of "La parlata degli ebrei di Venezia e le parlate giudeo-italiane", Lombroso writes about his own Jewish upbringing, saying on pg 39 in the cited book/link provided "the relationship the common Jewish language has between its with its genesis and characteristics stemming from a bad life". . As cited/shown, Lombroso wrote about and contributed to Jewish life and publications frequently and he is very known for this throughout italian historical literature. Cite error: There are <ref> tags on this page without content in them (see the help page). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Trinacrialucente (talk • contribs) 15:26, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

See, the problem is that you still haven't shown how this doesn't violate WP:SYNTH, in fact now ti seems clear that it does. You do not have a single source saying "While on the one hand he was racist against non-Europeans, but he also wrote about anti-semitism and published work in Jewish publications". You have different sources, many of them primary, that you are trying to use to "prove" your point. Your combining of those sources to reach your own conclusions is what violates synthesis (i.e. you are synthesizing information from different sources which is not allowed). Trying to add your own collection and analysis of his work is original research, and is against policy. I think the problem may be a basic misunderstanding of how the policies work, please review them carefully so that you can see how this very clearly violates them and you can avoid this kind of thing in the future. UnequivocalAmbivalence (talk) 23:14, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

No...YOU see: you are clueless as to what WP:SYNTH means and are trying to use it (baselessly). I have sources that support a) Lombroso was racist against non-Europeans and b) he publicly self-identified as a Jew and wrote about it in Jewish publications. Stating the obvious then backing it up with citations is NOT WP:SYNTH. I suggest you read it again. However, as you have shown to be completely biased here, I will break up the sentences so there is absolutely no possible way you can use that argument.Trinacrialucente (talk) 23:48, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Despite your needlessly aggressive attitude, with the removal of the synthesis we are now getting closer to a working solution. Please try to maintain a bit more civility, as your attitude is very off putting and makes it hard to conduct a logical discussion and reach an agreeable conclusion, which I think we are all capable of.UnequivocalAmbivalence (talk) 00:26, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

It is not "needless" since I resent the fact that I have to deal with WP:POV pushers like yourself who are desperately trying to cover up the fact that Lombroso was Jewish and coming at racism from a Jewish angle...not Italian. As I stated, Italian racism is a very real phenomenon, but Lombroso is a product of Jewish racism, which you are now very well aware of as I cited it repeatedly.Trinacrialucente (talk) 13:44, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm sorry you feel that way, but you are the one who seems to be pushing a POV. If you really cared about neutrality, you would maintain the same standards for all figures on this page, but I don't see you jumping at the bit to add "Sicilian Catholic" to the first sentence about Julius Evola even though that is also true. I am trying to maintain equal treatment, you are the one trying to push your own POV of what is "Important" and what is not, rather than following consensus and established practices.UnequivocalAmbivalence (talk) 22:31, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

You are bordering into idiocy, since Catholicism is indeed the majority religion in Italy (certainly at the time of Lombroso), ergo it is a presupposition that the writers in question would have a Catholic upbringing unless specified. Evola like Mussolini was an atheist, but brought up Catholic. I would not mind this being quoted or cited. But since Lombroso was Jewish, wrote about Jewish subjects/topics/life/linguistics in Italy AND commented on the anti-semitism of the country it IS noteworthy that he is Jewish given his stance on racism was not the "norm" of Italy. I seriously do not understand why you feel you are qualified to speak or opine on this topic since you cannot even read the body of work in the language it is written.Trinacrialucente (talk) 23:25, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

FYI, despite you losing all credibility on this topic by (mis)characterizing Evola as a "Sicilian Catholic" (a statement that proved your absolute ignorance on this topic) I have added his beliefs as well as those of Mussolini to this article per your above-stated challenge. I also added a citation where several authors are quoted as identifying Lombroso as a "jewish thinker" and practitioner of Jewish sociology, so...check and mate.Trinacrialucente (talk) 01:31, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

1. https://books.google.it/books?id=WxLKPq7-Ca8C&pg=PA39&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=lombros&f=false

• Start-Class Italy articles
• Mid-importance Italy articles
• All WikiProject Italy pages
• Start-Class Discrimination articles
• Low-importance Discrimination articles
• WikiProject Discrimination articles