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After the move, the article now begins "Levantine archaeology is the archaeological study of the ]", immediately begging the question in the header. It doesn't seem right, but I leave it others to purse the question. ] (]) 18:56, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
After the move, the article now begins "Levantine archaeology is the archaeological study of the ]", immediately begging the question in the header. It doesn't seem right, but I leave it others to purse the question. ] (]) 18:56, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
:The subject matter of the article should reflect the subject. I'll change it now, obviously more changes need to be made throughout the article. Also creating articles for Archaeology of Syria and Archaeology of Palestine ] (]) 19:41, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
:The subject matter of the article should reflect the subject. I'll change it now, obviously more changes need to be made throughout the article. Also creating articles for Archaeology of Syria and Archaeology of Palestine ] (]) 19:41, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
::Yes. I believe this move was ill considered, since the article now covers only half of the title's scope. I have added a tag to this effect. If the article is not expanded within a reasonable amount of time (a month or two?) I will propose moving it back. ] (]) 23:18, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
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Revision as of 23:18, 11 January 2016
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I don't know of many archaeologists or indeed publications that actually refer to it as Syro-Palestinian Archaeology or that talk about Palestinian Archaeology. The usual term is just biblical archaeology or Archaeology of Israel as that is where most of the work occurs (by which I mean not in Jordan, Syria, Lebanon or the Palestinian Territories), although there have been people trying to change that in recent years. I understand not wanting to offend some people, but at the same time, we should be going with the common name here. I am a Centrist btw and I don't regard the Bible as any other than Judahite history written in the 8th and 7th Centuries mostly whose accuracy in relation to the archaeology increases as one gets closer to those times. I do acknowledge the significant influence it has had on humanity though, as only a fool would not. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie, AKA TheArchaeologist Say Herro02:45, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
No its not. GOOGLE BOOK SEARCH FOR "Syro-Palestinian archaeology" returns 14,000 hits, while a similar search for "Levantine Archaeology" gets only 965 hits. Clearly the current title is more common than the name being proposed. There is an Archaeology of Israel page, which is more properly thought of as a subset of Syro-Palestinian archaeology and a Biblical archaeology page which refers to a related discipline from which syro-Palestinian archaeology sprung The current name is fine. Tiamut17:38, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
Google Book results are not a valid determiner of common name, however in any case, there are 792 results for syro-palestinian archaeology, not 14,000. Levantine archaeology is the common name per this reliable source. "Regardless of the manner in which the term has come into common use, for a couple of additional reasons it seems clear that the Levant will remain the term of choice. In the first place scholars have shown a penchant for the term Levant, despite the fact that the term ‘Syria-Palestine’ has been advocated since the late 1970s. This is evident from the fact that no journal or series today has adopted a title that includes ‘Syria-Palestine’. However, the journal Levant has been published since 1969 and since 1990 Ägypten und Levante has also attracted a plethora of papers relating to the archaeology of this region. Furthermore, a search through any electronic database of titles reveals an overwhelming adoption of the term ‘Levant’ when compared to ‘Syria-Palestine’ for archaeological studies. "
Additionally Academia.edu shows 1,418 documents in the "Levantine Archaeology" category compared to 454 for "Syro-Palestinian Archaeology" I do think there should be an Archaeology of Palestine article dealing specifically with that field, just as there is an Archaeology of Israel article. However Syro-Palestinian archaeology is not the common name, and it should not be used as an umbrella for the region Drsmoo (talk) 16:24, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
You should read the Aaron Burke article you linked to above in more detail. He says that Levantine archaeology descended from Syro-Palestinian archaeology. He then goes on to explain that he prefers Levantine archaeology because it covers a much wider cultural region. In explaining all of this, he is clear that these are two separate topics. You are very welcome to create a new article called Levantine archaeology, but that is not the same as this topic. Oncenawhile (talk) 23:24, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
Goggle hit counts are nondeterministic, especially for large numbers. At Google Books I get 10,500 for "syro-palestinian archaeology" and 1,170 for "levantine archaeology". Try this ngrams example (which I think searches books only). It's hard to be sure of a trend from this. Zero23:32, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
Your statement does not hold up. Burke is clear that Levantine Archaeology as an academic subject has replaced Syro-Palestinian archaeology in academia. He goes on to note that there are no longer any journals or series using the name "Syro-Palestinian Archaeology" in their title. Drsmoo (talk) 05:12, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
How many Misplaced Pages articles have phrases that don't appear in the names of journals? And where can we read this rule about article titles? Zero08:15, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
The issue is whether Syro-Palestinian archaeology is the WP:Commonname. Given that researchers in the field have moved on to Levantine archaeology to describe the region, and that there are no longer any currently published journals or book series using the name Syro-Palestinian, in comparison to Levant, which has several, is a very strong indication that Levantine Archaeology is reliably the WP:Commonname. Drsmoo (talk) 16:14, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
I only just got around to reading the whole article of Burke and found that the extract you quoted does not properly represent it. Burke says is that the archaeology of the whole Levant is replacing the archaeology of Syria-Palestine. He doesn't anywhere claim these are different names for the same thing and in fact in the middle of page 83 he cites the expansion of the area of study as a primary advantage of the word Levant. So the question of what name to use in this article depends on what region we want it to cover. Zero22:45, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
He says that the archaeology of the whole Levant is replacing the archaeology of Syria-Palestine. He says that field of study "formerly identified as Syria-Palestine" is now more often referred to as the Southern Levant and also includes study of Canaan. He adds that "after more than twenty years of advocacy, despite adoption of the term by some scholars, many, if not most, have demonstrated a predilection to identify this region as the Levant." And as mentioned before, points out that "no journal or series today has adopted a title that includes ‘Syria-Palestine’." Drsmoo (talk) 02:04, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
You ignored my point. And I don't know why you keep repeating the barely-relevant fact that two archaeology journals, one an obscure Austrian journal not even prominent enough to be covered by Web of Science, use the word Levant in their titles. Zero03:08, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
Zero0000, There's no need to be hostile or angry. This talk section was started because a user (who is an archaeologist) commented that the term "Syro-Palestinian Archaeology" is no longer relevant. A second user added that the current field of research is known as Levantine Archaeology. I added a reliable source (from an award-winning book) that detailed how the field of study "formerly identified as Syria-Palestine" has been updated to Levantine Archaeology. My comments were directly related to the subject of this talk section. You say I "keep repeating" two archaeology journals. That is incorrect, I've only brought it up once in this talk page (and in any case there are other notable journals with Levant in the title). What I have brought up multiple times is that there are no longer any currently published journals using the name Syro-Palestinian and that the field has been largely replaced by "Levantine Archaeology", which is critically important when discussing the WP:Commonname. Your argument seems to be that since Levantine Archaeology deals with more area than Syro-Palestinian archaeology, the articles should be different. But this doesn't hold up. This article was originally called "Palestinian Archaeology" it was then renamed to Syro-Palestinian Archaeology diff here with the reason being "Both terms can be used, but Syro-Palestinian is broader in scope and should therefore be the name, while including Palestinian archaeology therein." The same reasoning should be used for moving this article to Levantine Archaeology. My proposal is that just as there is a page for Archaeology of Israel and Archaeology of Lebanon, so too should there be pages for Archaeology of Syria and Archaeology of Palestine. Despite their archaeological importance and the presence of archaeological research being done, there are no articles for either due to the presence of this article. Given that the field of research has moved to using Levantine Archaeology, it would make sense to move this article to Levantine Archaeology, and create new articles for Archaeology of Palestine and Archaeology of Syria. Drsmoo (talk) 07:29, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
Per consensus on this talk page(archive included) as well as academic consensus I've moved the article to Levantine archaeology. The talk page here (including the archive) has been consistently having issues with the name of this article, particularly individuals working in the field. This along with scholarly sources pointing out that there are no Journals using the name Syro-Palestinian archaeology but multiple using Levantine archaeology. "Regardless of the manner in which the term has come into common use, for a couple of additional reasons it seems clear that the Levant will remain the term of choice. In the first place scholars have shown a penchant for the term Levant, despite the fact that the term ‘Syria-Palestine’ has been advocated since the late 1970s. This is evident from the fact that no journal or series today has adopted a title that includes ‘Syria-Palestine’. However, the journal Levant has been published since 1969 and since 1990 Ägypten und Levante has also attracted a plethora of papers relating to the archaeology of this region. Furthermore, a search through any electronic database of titles reveals an overwhelming adoption of the term ‘Levant’ when compared to ‘Syria-Palestine’ for archaeological studies."
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: Move. There's a lot to consider here, but we have substantial evidence that the proposed term is more common in the current academic sources for the topic, and consensus favors following it. Cúchullain/c18:36, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
Syro-Palestinian archaeology → Levantine archaeology – Per majority on this talk page as well as overwhelming academic consensus, the article should be moved to Levantine archaeology. The talk page here (including the archive) has consistently brought up issues with the name of this article, particularly from individuals working in the field. This, along with scholarly sources pointing out that there are no journals using the name Syro-Palestinian archaeology but multiple using Levantine archaeology. "Regardless of the manner in which the term has come into common use, for a couple of additional reasons it seems clear that the Levant will remain the term of choice. In the first place scholars have shown a penchant for the term Levant, despite the fact that the term ‘Syria-Palestine’ has been advocated since the late 1970s. This is evident from the fact that no journal or series today has adopted a title that includes ‘Syria-Palestine’. However, the journal Levant has been published since 1969 and since 1990 Ägypten und Levante has also attracted a plethora of papers relating to the archaeology of this region. Furthermore, a search through any electronic database of titles reveals an overwhelming adoption of the term ‘Levant’ when compared to ‘Syria-Palestine’ for archaeological studies." My proposal is that just as there is a page for Archaeology of Israel and Archaeology of Lebanon, so too should there be pages for Archaeology of Syria and Archaeology of Palestine. Despite their archaeological importance and the presence of archaeological research being done, there are no articles for either due to the presence of this article. Given that the field of research has moved to using Levantine Archaeology, it would make sense to move this (primary) article to Levantine Archaeology, and create new articles for Archaeology of Palestine and Archaeology of Syria. Drsmoo (talk) 00:41, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
Support move, as common name. The argument that this article should just be about archaeology in Syria and Palestine doesn't really hold up if it prevents an article on the broader and mainstream subject of Levantine archaeology. Additional separate articles for the two present day countries as the proposal suggests makes much more sense. ‑‑Yodin03:19, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
Support Having an article about "Archaeology of Syria" in which you can talk about the archaeology in the eastern part of the country (which usually falls outside the scope of the Levant) would be great. --Zoeperkoe (talk) 07:46, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
Oppose While it would be perfectly fine to have an article on the Archaeology of the Levant, it is not ok to just rename this article that is on a different topic (archaeology of a smaller region). The claimed consensus does not exist, and the arguments provided for the move are mostly refuted in the discussion above. In particular, the quotation from an article of Aaron Burke misrepresents it. Burke states very clearly that the names are not equivalent and that the advantage of "Levant" is that it covers a wider area. The journal names are 100% irrelevant. It is a big mistake to treat this as a choice between two names for the same thing; actually the choice is of which area to cover. Two of the "support" votes above this clearly indicate a preference for changing the scope (not just the name), which is a fine position to take but not the intent of the proposer. Zero08:26, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
Reply:I take offense to the claim that the article has been misrepresented. Burke is clear that the term Syro-Palestinian archaeology is an anachronism that has no currency in the academic world and has been directly replaced by Levantine Archaeology per wide academic consensus. Burke is the one who cites the nonexistence of journals using the name "Syro Palestinian" as evidence of its non use. It is curious that you would directly attack Burke's observation while simultaneously claiming that I misrepresented him. I have linked to the article directly. Drsmoo (talk) 13:17, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
To reply to your comment 'Two of the "support" votes above this clearly indicate a preference for changing the scope (not just the name), which is a fine position to take but not the intent of the proposer.': there is a case that this should be kept as an article covering the historical field "Syro-Palestinian archaeology", and a new one created to cover "Levantine archaeology", but as the latter area of study is regarded as the successor to the former, and the two subjects have so much overlap (and as far as I'm aware, no clear moment of transition from one to the other), there would doubtless be a request to merge the two. The current lack of an article covering "Levantine archaeology" as a whole is apparently an embarrassing gap, and must surely be down to the article having this title. If the article is renamed, its scope must surely follow to cover the entire modern field of "Levantine archaeology", unless your proposal is for it still to cover only the southern Levant, Drsmoo? ‑‑Yodin14:30, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
I'm in agreement with Yodin, the contemporary field of study is Levantine, rather than Southern Levantine. It is Levantine Archaeology that has become the academic norm. The article could be moved to Southern Levantine Archaeology, but that would then inevitably be merged with Levantine. In response to the comment below, the source provided is another example of academic writing using the term Levantine Archaeology as normative and standard. Drsmoo (talk) 15:02, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
You are right that my reply was a bit aggressive, but I didn't appreciate that you just repeated the arguments you made above without the least nod towards the case made against them, and you claimed a consensus when there wasn't one. Incidentally, here's a factoid: 47 articles in the journal Levant use the name "Syro-Palestinian", the latest in 2015. Given that I'm just about to get on (or, more correctly, in) a plane, I don't have time to check contexts. Also 54 articles in "Palestine Exploration Quarterly", latest 2015. And 65 in Israel Exploration Journal, latest 2011. Zero21:30, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
This book (especially pp. 5 & 130 you quote) is pretty damning of Dever's term "Syro-Palestinian archaeology", saying that it basically never really took off, but that Biblical archaeology became just one part of modern Levantine archaeology (i.e. Bronze and Iron age southern Levantine archaeology; most other areas of the Levant, and other time periods tend to be unrelated to the Bible). My reading of p.4 is also very different; he doesn't seem to be arguing against the use of the term "Levantine archaeology" (he just says most people would "have no idea what we are speaking about" , and then goes on to talk about "Levantine archaeologists" in the same paragraph, and sporadically through the book ), let alone that they would be familiar with "Syro-Palestinian archaeology" (in fact, he only uses the term "Syro-Palestinian archaeology" once beyond his discussions of Dever's unsuccessful attempt to shape the field under that name, ); instead he's justifying the use of the word Bible in the book's title which helps normal readers know what the subject is, and then goes on to explain the stigma surrounding the use of the term "Biblical"/"Bible" in modern archaeology. ‑‑Yodin15:37, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
Oppose - Levantine would be wider than Syro-Palestinian. Make another article about that wider topic if you want, I dont see how that impacts this one. nableezy - 18:39, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
Conditional Support I agree with a lot of what Zero says above. If this is going to be moved it must also be a scope expansion as well as Syro-Palestine is not the same as Levantine. I think having one on that larger scope, and then smaller ones on Syria and Palestine in particular, would be good. But if there is going to be nothing on the larger geographic region, then I'd rather it just stay here. Wugapodes (talk) 04:04, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
Comment re Biblical archaeology: Per p5 and p130 of the books linked above, the term Levantine archaeology is used as an equivalent to Biblical archaeology. The source explains that "Biblical archaeology" began to get a questionable reputation amongst the archaeological community as being too reliant on religious sources, so many scholars now publish their work under the term Levantine archaeology. Therefore, the idea that we would widen the scope of this article to the whole of Levantine archaeology would create a problematic situation where we have two duplicate articles (Levantine and Biblical) representing the same thing under two different names. Oncenawhile (talk) 10:16, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
Again, I don't think this is an accurate summary of what the authors are saying, but I would encourage other editors to take a brief read and make up their own minds (also see the sources mentioned in the top section, which describe the same phenomenon in another way). Biblical Archaeology is now replaced by one part of the wider modern field of Levantine Archaeology, which also includes other areas (e.g. the northern Levant, most of Syria, Lebanon, etc.) and other time frames (e.g. prehistory, late antiquity, and Islamic medieval & early modern), unless you're saying these are part of another area Oncenawhile? The increase in scope is part of a trend to incorporate Bibical Archaeology into modern scholarship by placing it into a wider context, but what you seem to be saying is that Levantine is, in fact, not larger in scope. ‑‑Yodin11:04, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
Hi Yodin, I agree with you, with one caveat. My interpretation of what the source is saying is that for many scholars the term "Levantine archaeology" is simply used to add greater legitimacy to the work of Biblical archaeologists, even though the scope of their work has not changed. One question I haven't figured out the answer to is re relevant time periods. One criticism of Biblical archaeology vs Syro-Palestinian is that it only focused on time periods relevant to the Bible, and so the rest of the region's archaeology was ignored. Syro-Palestinian archaeology was intended to address that. It would be helpful to understand whether Levantine archaeology is focused on more than just Biblically-relevant time periods. Oncenawhile (talk) 11:10, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
The Oxford Handbook of the Archaeology of the Levant gives a good definition/overview of Levantine archaeology. "Levantine archaeology is now much more in line with developments in the wider discipline of archaeology as processual and post-processual approaches have relegated traditional historical/biblical questions to a less dominant position (Dever 1981)... In the 21st century, Levantine archaeology remains a vibrant, healthy discipline, a 'big tent' home to a wide variety of archaeological traditions. Its greatest strength lies in its wealth of accumulated primary data providing the basis for vibrant, foundational research into the story of the past." Drsmoo (talk) 13:17, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
This is excellent, thanks. It seems therefore that a Levantine archaeology article will be an important addition to wikipedia, and would be the main / parent article covering the wider discipline. This article could then link to a number of sub- or historical- "archaeological traditions" articles such as Biblical archaeology or Syro-Palestinian archaeology, with both of these existing articles to be slimmed down and with the appropriate caveats included. Oncenawhile (talk) 16:51, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
I would tend to suggest a new article, "Levantine Archaeology," of which Syro-Palestinian Archaeology is a part. -Darouet (talk) 06:40, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
RfC: Proposed article move from Syro-Palestinian archaeology to Levantine archaeology
When discussion has ended, remove this tag and it will be removed from the list. If this page is on additional lists, they will be noted below.
There is a proposal to move from Syro-Palestinian archaeology to Levantine archaeology here and to create separate pages for Archaeology of Syria and Archaeology of Palestine. Your opinions would be welcome, thanks Drsmoo (talk) 13:51, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
A request for comment for moves is what the above section is. I am not sure what exactly this section is supposed to be doing. Kingsindian♝♚13:08, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
After the move, the article now begins "Levantine archaeology is the archaeological study of the southern Levant", immediately begging the question in the header. It doesn't seem right, but I leave it others to purse the question. Johnbod (talk) 18:56, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
The subject matter of the article should reflect the subject. I'll change it now, obviously more changes need to be made throughout the article. Also creating articles for Archaeology of Syria and Archaeology of Palestine Drsmoo (talk) 19:41, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
Yes. I believe this move was ill considered, since the article now covers only half of the title's scope. I have added a tag to this effect. If the article is not expanded within a reasonable amount of time (a month or two?) I will propose moving it back. Oncenawhile (talk) 23:18, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
— Duplicate vote: Drsmoo (talk • contribs) has already cast a vote above.
