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User:El_C Vandalism by Administrator(Removing Warnings)

Misplaced Pages:Removing_warnings: "Removing warnings for vandalism from one's talk page is also considered vandalism...Editors may be subject to a minor block for archiving prematurely so as to hide warnings." He didn't archive, he outright deleted the warning. Per Misplaced Pages:Removing_warnings he needed to use the proper method of {warning-for-removal} if he felt a template was being used incorrectly.

Furthermore WP:VAND states: Removing warnings, whether for vandalism or other forms of prohibited/discouraged behavior, from one's talk page is also considered vandalism.

Tag Added: 22:59, 10 August 2006 Diff: ]

Elapsed time: 17 minutes

Tag Removed: 23:16, 10 August 2006 Diff: ]

Sarastro777 22:53, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

First, may I say, please don't troll. El_C is a responsible admin and there is no evidence of vandalism, therefore your misusing the warning templates. 216.78.95.229 23:13, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Interesting coming from someone with only three contributions. Obviously you are either from another IP or a user who does not want to post these messages under their name. Paul Cyr 02:06, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

There is no unqualified right to hand out warnings at will. Many people consider removing warnings inappropriate, but not in all circumstances. AFAICT, this was an ongoing dispute about the contents of your userpage, and there was existing discussion about it here on AN/I (which seems now to have disappeared?) in which several administrators were already involved. Given these circumstances, the appropriate course of action would have been to engage in the discussion here, or initiate the dispute resolution process, not issuing a warning. Labelling someone a vandal is not helpful, and will likely antagonise anyone who would otherwise be sympathetic towards you. --bainer (talk) 00:43, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

FYI, the archived AN/I entry is now at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive125#Personal Attack by User:Sarastro777. -Will Beback 02:03, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Attempting to dig up dirt on me (not the subject of complaint) is not going to distract from the fact an Administrator bypassed all procedure and deleted a warning tag, completely against the rules (above). This Admin was blanking my userpage and I was not informed of this incident board until later by an entirely different user. Again, if Admin disagrees he is vandalizing then there is a procedure to remove the tag which does not involve deleting it himself 17 minutes later. Don't attack me because HE broke the rule which is very explicit above. Sarastro777 04:50, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

This is not an isolated incident. El-C have done this to me as well (removal of my attempts to resolve disputes with her). She has hard time dealing with critism in a comunicative way. She either drop the whole subject of try to remove her opponent - this at least have been my expiriance. It seems she thinks that Misplaced Pages is a zerosum game. Zeq 09:32, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

How about you guys give us the full context before just piling on? --mboverload@ 09:44, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

If you are referring to me, the policies don't give any "context" where it says they don't have to be followed (?) Not sure what you are looking for here. Sarastro777 15:02, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, All Misplaced Pages policies are applied according to context. Slac speak up! 19:37, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

The 'context' is that Sarastro777 is irate that his 'manifesto' was removed from his userpage, and is now working at a block for disruption and trolling. --InShaneee 19:28, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. This guy is a master of double standards. In that 'manifesto' he blatantly implies that I am an Israeli government agent, but doesn't say it outright, obviously in a weak effort to avoid being blocked for personal attacks. Schrodingers Mongoose 02:36, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

The only part on my userpage that mentioned 'rogue admins' was not added by me, but by OiBoy. I did document several very insulting and inappropriate personal attacks such as the one above made by you. Obviously the people catalogued were not proud of their behavior or the page would not have been censored. Quoting two news sources and excerpting from logs gets twisted into a "manifesto" and a "conspiracy theory." Rather than address the vandalism, which is the subject of the notice, opponents smear me personally to distract from the real complaint. Sarastro777 20:47, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Lets not forget Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive127#User:Sarastro777's user page and Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive54#Sarastro777. This user has a history here. -- Avi 01:59, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Azskeptic (talk · contribs)

Azskeptic has threatened another user on this site using personal information:

http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:ParalelUni#Blocked

"Spike, stop it. Your identity is known and if you keep making threats a mental health evaluation will be asked for in your county court to see if help can be given to you. Sorry to the administrators to witness such a meltdown in public from a SC medical school student. Azskeptic 22:51, 11 August 2006 (UTC)"

I ask that this statement be removed and this user be banned. He knows this user from another site and this is def. cyber-stalking. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.12.116.65 (talk • contribs) .

After advice from other admins, Azskeptic has already removed that threat, and rightly so, making threats such as this sets a poor example for other users. However I will not take any further action; Azskeptic was not acting out of malice, but (over)reacting to the most despicable trolling that I have ever encountered. Any rational user would forgive Azskeptic for this transgression. --bainer (talk) 01:01, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

It's not actually a threat you know. He's jocular, although angry, and saying that the fellow needed psychiatric help. That's help, not incarceration. It's still inappropriate, and it's well removed, but let's take it easy with this "everything is a threat" bit. Geogre 02:20, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Jocularity about this sort of thing is not something we should appreciate. Any comment about taking matters off-wiki into users' real life has to be treated seriously in my opinion. Metamagician3000 07:01, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

(Not an admin) Having responded to the issue, when it was posted at WP:PAIN, I can verify that Azskeptic retracted the offending statement . It wasn't the best idea, but I'd heavily encourage anyone to take a closer look at the intense trolling surrounding that whole incident, before reaching any final decision. Luna Santin 07:07, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

It looks like Spike has been banned, and quite properly so. This person has shown a sick mentality, and I understand the extreme provocation; I just don't think we should ever be too quick to dismiss statements of intention to interfere with someone's personal life as being mere jokes. There have been too many cases where it has actually happened. In the circumstances, I'm not saying any action should be taken against Azskeptic, who obviously realised quite quickly that s/he'd done the wrong thing - just making a general observation to my wise colleagues. Metamagician3000 07:43, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Regardless of the actions of Spike I see no excuse for this behaviour. There is never an excuse for threatening someone off wikipedia regardless of what they've done. You stop talking and report it on the proper pages if you can't remain civil and within the policies. I don't know the history but the IP has indicated this has happened before, and I don't see any blocks on this person. That is something that seems highly inappropriate about this situation.--Crossmr 23:30, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Suggest that the related thread on WP:PAIN should also be closed. Newyorkbrad 23:19, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Why should it be closed? Crossmr brings up some excellent points. Regardless of the situation, what this user did was not something that can be swept under the proverbial rug. Doing nothing sends the message that this kind of behavior on Misplaced Pages is okay in certain situations. Is this the message that wikipedia wants people to get about how to interact here? MiloMein 03:27, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

POINT violation by PEAR

PEAR seems to be gaming the system, using Misplaced Pages to make a point. Please see user's page. However, I cannot see cause to issue a block so I placed a warning on the user's discussion page instead. --Yamla 21:37, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

WP:POINT's proper name is Misplaced Pages:Don't disrupt Misplaced Pages to illustrate a point. Please explain in detail what the disruption is that you're claiming this user is doing. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 21:40, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I should point out that this is exactly why I am not blocking the user. As I noted on the user's discussion page, the user does not seem to be disrupting Misplaced Pages. However, the user is most definitely gaming the system. --Yamla 21:42, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't see anything wrong on that userpage; at it's current version, it is just listing his edits/milestones, which many Wikipedians do. User:Zscout370 21:45, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Did you notice that the pages he edited, when read as a sentence, suggest that the Bush family is responsible for the September 11 attacks and John F. Kennedy assasination? That cannot be construed as coincidence. Hyenaste  21:57, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Please see my message to Yamla regarding this coincidence, which is nothing more than a coincidence. --PEAR 22:10, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely ridiculous to try to claim that's a coincidence, of course. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 22:22, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I suppose this claim is more rediculous than the claim that a bullet could go through two people multiple times without even being scratched or having blood on it? Or the claim that the 3 first (and only) large buildings to collapse due to fire all did so on the same day at the same place? What I am trying to say is, coincidences happen everyday. People need to be more understanding of this. --PEAR 22:30, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

hey he's a pov warrior anyone surprised?i am --Golbez 22:43, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Who me? What's a POV warrior? (I'm new here, I just finished my 100th edit) --PEAR 22:50, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

(de-indent) While you did make me chuckle, it's ludicrous that you expect us to believe that the following five consecutive articles edited over three minutes were not thought of beforehand: Bush Family, IS, responsible, For, September 11, 2001 attacks. -- Samir धर्म 00:27, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Samir, the third article I editted was Responsibility not responsible.

--PEAR 00:41, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

My guess is that you couldn't find responsible then. Don't get me wrong though. I think it's benign enough to stay on your userpage (and pretty clever). -- Samir धर्म 00:49, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I couldn't think of any constructive edits I could make to responsible because it's just a redirect.

--PEAR 01:06, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I suppose PEAR is improving Misplaced Pages articles to illustrate a point, which is different from disrupting Misplaced Pages to illustrate a point. Except for the disruption caused by this AN/I thread due to the ambiguity in disruptiveness caused by point-illustration... *head explodes* —Quarl 2006-08-13 01:17Z

Which is more important: the disruption part or the point-proving part? And what point is being proven? Hyenaste  01:25, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't know what this has to do with WP:POINT...this is just a misuse of userspace as a soapbox for conspiracy theories. Christopher Parham (talk) 02:32, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

It's also a blatant indicator that this editor likely has little interest in stowing his conspiracy theories and POV issues. --Golbez 02:34, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

: I'd say let the user keep it. The edits have been harmless and/or helpful, many people have various political statements on their user pages, as long as the user continues to make useful edits we shouldn't be too worried. I'm more concerned that the user initially claimed it was a concidence and then acknowledged that it was deliberate. Lying and taking up our time as a result is disruptive and will inevitable make further work with the user difficult. If the user becomes a serious POV pushing problem then we will deal with it then. JoshuaZ 02:37, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Why did I ever say it was deliberate?

--PEAR 15:46, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

The edits may be harmless, but the list of them on PEAR's User page are not. I would suggest an MfD. User:Zoe|(talk) 03:33, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh, for goodness sake. As things stand, there is no disruption of Misplaced Pages being caused by the Userpage, the contributor's edits are constructive - so where exactly is the problem? That s/he chooses to make a political statement on the Userpage using the first 5 edits in a witty and original manner is not reason for hysteria. The subsequent edits suggest to me that this is an editor who is probably here to do positive work. Let's not alienate someone over a non existent "problem" that is being imagined for no good reason. Whatever happened to WP:AGF? If this new account becomes problematic in the future, deal with it then, but let's not bash a potentially valuable contributor about the head needlessly. Time to move on. --Cactus.man ✍ 08:15, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, PEAR hasn't done any harmful edits, but (s)he just did a number of edits that are not constructive, leaving a "Hi" on a number of seemingly random user talk pages (possibly found the users to target from recent changes). I assume he's doing this to quickly get to 150 or 200 edits so he can keep his milestone structure in line while continuing his sentence structure. Whitejay 16:33, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I was trying to promote WikiLove by saying Hi to random users. It seemed like a good idea. Since I recieved complaints that it might confuse people, I've decided to instead put my efforts towards welcomming new users.

--PEAR 01:09, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

<-- On the topic of sequential edits made to prove a point, I'd submit the case of Über_Nerd_2000 (talk · contribs). His contributions were clearly intended to spell out a personal attack. On the matter of PEAR, the listing on his user talk page is not a simple copy of his contributions log, so the arrangement does not appear coincidental. -Will Beback 21:16, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

POV edits notwithstanding, PEAR has a pattern of disruptive edits. For example, he nominated the article Wiktionary for speedy delete on the grounds of not being notable. He later altered a welcome message on a user's talk page, changing it slightly and removing the original editor's signature and adding his/her own. — ERcheck (talk) 22:55, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Ex-Homey

See also:

• RfAr brought against Homeontherange/Homey, filed July 20.
• RfAr statements about Homeontherange/Homey and alleged misuse of admin tools, filed July 20.
• Previous AN/I thread about Homeontherange/Homey and sockpuppets, started August 4.
• RfAr brought by Homeontherange/Homey, filed August 5.
• Category:Misplaced Pages sockpuppets of Homeontherange

Ex-Homey (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been repeatedly emailing me about allowing him to edit wiki-wide rather than being restricted to his arbitration cases, which was the condition I imposed when I unblocked him. I would not agree to this; if for no other reason than that he has been such a pest. Any thoughts about relieving the restriction I imposed on him? Fred Bauder 23:16, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Strongly opposed to allowing him to edit any place but arbitration pages. I blocked his original account for abusive sockpuppets because of his involvment in the WordBomb case. Additionally, Ex-Homey mistated the reason you unblocked him in his statement on RFAr that he has against me. I'll post more later. I sent an email to the Arbcom list about this before you posted here. FloNight 23:35, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I feel I should wade into this mess since I missed most of the earlier discussion. I am strongly opposed to considering Homey to be under an indefinite community ban. He has unquestionably gone way beyond the pale of acceptable behaviour in recetn weeks, but this does not negate the fact that he has made several tens of thousands of valuable edits and several years of good behaviour. In the Canadian areas Misplaced Pages, where I am most familiar with his work, he was for a long time considered a pilar of the community. - SimonP 00:58, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Not an admin...but...As the goal here is to create an encylopedia, as long as that is what a user is doing I don't see a problem with it. I am sure you guys know better than I since I haven't followed this all that closely, so if you feel that if he is unblocked he wouldn't be helping to create an encylopedia, disregard this uniformed comment. Arkon 01:04, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

This is also my view. Looking through the edit histories of his alternate accounts they, for the most part, have done little disruptive and almost all the contributions have been totally legitimate. If another account like User:Fluffy the Cotton Fish appears and starts making a stream of productive edits, I see no reason to not let Homey quietly work under the new name. - SimonP 01:23, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I am strongly opposed to this as there is strong consensus for him to be under a community ban for his use of sockpuppets and other behaivor see Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive126#Proposed_community_ban. --PinchasC | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€ 01:45, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm also strongly opposed to any relaxation. These are just some of his recent sockpuppets, and here are some others. Some of them have been used abusively e.g. to file a false 3RR report, to pretend to be another banned user in order to cause confusion, or to harass editors he's been in conflict with. Any editor behaving the way he has would have been community-banned by now. SlimVirgin 03:41, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

SimonP. Could you give me some idea what you think the proper sanction is for abusive sockpuppets made to break rules, harass perceived advocacies, and avoid sanctions being handed in several arbitration cases on Homey's main user account?

Seems like your buying into Homey false assertion that his block is punitive when in reality it was preventative. And you therefore look like you are giving him a get out of jail free card. In reality Homey was blocked for refusing to follow dispute resolution by instead fake leaving and coming back and engaging in deceptive and abusive editing with sockpuppets. Knowing his recent history, I think blocking his accounts and forbidding editing outside arbitration pages is prudent. Preventing future disruption in the face of his past disruptive editing should be our purpose. I think limiting him to the arbitration case pages is the only way to make it happen.

Also, I think letting him freely edit now sends the wrong message to him and other disruptive editors. Why should they bother involving themselves with the arbitration case against them. Just leave and come back with different user accounts and do the same or worse. FloNight 04:00, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Agree as per FloNight and SlimVirgin's concerns. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 05:10, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand why this is even being raised, at this point. He's created all sorts of sockpuppets, many for the purpose of harassing, deceiving, or confusing other editors. He's still pretending some of the sockpuppets aren't him, and he's using his active sockpuppet to try to spread as much FUD as he possibly can, including making various false and arguably defamatory claims. When faced with an ArbCom case, a responsible editor would not pretend to leave Misplaced Pages, then create a dozen sockpuppets and harass other editors with them. This is just disruption. Jayjg 05:26, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I oppose giving him free reign. Homey and his various incarnations have been a constant source of sockpuppetry, 3RR violations, ceaseless RFArs and disruption. FeloniousMonk 06:00, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

These arguments would hold more water if the majority of the new accounts and IP addresses had done anything remotely disruptive. Even if you look at his ArbCom case, which tries to bring up every poor decision over the last several months, I have to agree with CJCurrie that "most of the evidence presented in the case is extremely dubious." Certainly any account that is being disruptive should be blocked, but blocking one that is only making goods edits is purely vindictive. - SimonP 12:46, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

SimonP, which Arb case are you discussing? FloNight 12:55, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Homeontherange. - SimonP 16:32, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with SimonP. This user has made over 35,000 edits in a period of several years. This is not a user you block through a community ban, this is a case that requires the arbcom. Homeontherange has already indicated that he will appeal a community ban, and I support him in that. People claim the many abusive sockpuppets, I would like to see the evidence for the many abusive ones, and equally about the remaining accusations. As the tenstions between groups have gone to high, I think this needs to get away from the discussion boards.-- Kim van der Linde 16:50, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I would like to add, that even editors as User:Blu Aardvark are not indef banned by the arbcom, and Homeontherange's 'disruption' is not nearly as bad as Blu Ardvark's. With that comparision, an indef community ban is way out of proportion in this case. -- Kim van der Linde 17:23, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I think it is rather odd that some people's reasoning for not banning Homeontherange is basically "but some of his sockpuppets are making good edits!". The idea that we should only pay attention to the example's of one's best behavior seems kinda odd. I would also argue that Homey's recent behavior has been worse than that of Blu Aardvark, think of what he has done in a matter-of-fact way: Harrassment, vote stacking, malicious sockpuppetry, abuse of process, and continuous incivility, plus all sorts of behavior that cannot simply be explained in terms of wikipedia policy. He has caused a huge amount of disruption by pretending to leave and then acting as if his account has been "hacked into" for the sole purpose of getting out of an arbcom sanction, and then he tried to launch an RFA against two admins because they called him on his recent behavior. I don't really see how all of this is canceled out because some of his sockpuppets have not yet engaged in any violations of policy.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 18:29, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I haven't seen evidence of maliciousness from Homey. Many of the people commenting here have been very involved in disputes with him with regards to the article Allegations of Israeli aparthied. --Ben Houston 18:37, 13 August 2006 (UTC)--Ben Houston 18:37, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

You sadly miss the point of the Israeli apartheid articles. They were simply a part of Homey's disruption, not the cause of this situation. He has been editing and behaving disruptively for a long time. SlimVirgin 04:55, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

And what is the relationship of the people defending him?- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 04:37, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

More to it than that, but based primarily on SimonP's position I am relieving Ex-homey from the condition I imposed on him. He says he may create another account to edit with quietly. Should it be found using checkuser, please leave it alone unless it is doing something wrong. Fred Bauder 20:11, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Moshe, there were no sockpuppets. I recently had a few alternate accounts, none of which were used to edit the same articles or vote stack in AFDs or do anything opposed to WP:SOCK. Several of the accounts were single purpose accounts that made a handful of edits before being discarded because I didn't want to be drawn into anything on an ongoing basis - I will not be using such accounts in the future. No one has pointed to one edit made by these accounts that is at all worthy of a saction - the closest was SV pointing to a request for a 3RR that was made feigning ignorance of how to do a 3RR. Only one of those accounts was blocked initially and that was because someone wrongly suggested it of being a Wordbomb sockpuppet because it asked for the checkuser results of Mantanmoreland to be posted. Without the erroneous Wordbomb suspicion there would have been no grounds to block.

As for the supposed Sonofzion sockpuppet, I deny having used that account and checksuer did not "confirm" that it was me, rather it produced a "likely" response. There is evidence that Sonofzion was in fact User:Dervish Tsaddik using a Toronto are proxy or zombie computer since other posts signed "Sonofzion" originated from Sweden as did one signed "Daughterofzion".

According to the ruling on the Saladin 1970 appeal:

"The touchstone of an appropriate "ban by the community" is that there is no administrator who after examining the matter is willing to lift or reduce the ban."

This is not the case here as per Fred and SimonP's remarks as well as several other admins who have either spoken publicly or sent me emails. There are no sanctions against me, there have been no findings against me thus there is no reason to harass me with a witch hunt or arbitrary blocking.Ex-Homey 20:28, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

There is absolutely no evidence that User:Sonofzion was a Dervish Tsaddik sockpuppet, "using a Toronto area proxy" or anything else, and none of the posts by the account User:Sonofzion "originated from Sweden". This is another example of the kinds of disruptive falsehoods that Ex-Homey has been spreading. Jayjg 00:21, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Jayjg's accusations above are opinion, not established facts -- that should be kept in mind. --Ben Houston 00:26, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

No, they're established fact, and that should be kept in mind. Sonofzion did not edit "from a Toronto area proxy", nor did it edit from Sweden. And this is the kind of disruptive edit I was talking about. Jayjg 00:29, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Then why was the checkuser result "likely" but not "confirmed" Jayjg - you never did answer my question about whether checkusdr showed "same system" or not? And yes, there was a poster from Sweden who signed himself "sonofzion" and then "daughterofzion".

I am changing the other sockpuppet tags to "alternative account" tags, following the example of Mantanmoreland and User:Lastexit (lastexit and manatmoreland edited the same articles and voted in the same AFD's, what normally would be called "abusive sockpuppetry). If you want to change the tags back then also change his tag.Ex-Homey 03:41, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Fred Bauder unblocked you so you could specifically participate in arbitration only, not edit war over notices on your sockpuppets and harass others at their talk pages. Again, another opportunity from the community squandered. I've reinstated your block. FeloniousMonk 04:10, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Felonious, please take note of Fred Bauder's comments above: More to it than that, but based primarily on SimonP's position I am relieving Ex-homey from the condition I imposed on him. He says he may create another account to edit with quietly. To the specific point, there seems to be some disagreement as to whether or not these alternate accounts can be described as "Sockpuppets" -- Ex-Homey has acknowledged using some of them on a per-day basis, but only after his previous account was voluntarily blocked. This doesn't correspond with any definition of "sockpuppetry" that I'm familiar with. CJCurrie 04:27, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

CJC, perhaps you haven't been following this closely. Homeontherange used the accounts for the purposes of deception and harassment. He turned up at articles his "opponents" edited a lot and tried to start trouble on them; he filed at least one false 3RR report against one of them; he tried to interfere with the election to the medcom of another; he pretended to be another banned user in order to cause confusion; etc. It has been the worst disruptive behavior from a former regular user that I've encountered in my time here. Anyone who wanted to create a new account simply in order to contribute to the encyclopedia could have done so without interference, and would not have engaged in any of this behavior. SlimVirgin 04:53, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm aware that HotR has specifically denied most (if not all) of these charges, and that they remain unproven. In any event, Ex-Homey was not restricted to participation on the arbitration case and from a procedural standpoint he should not have been blocked. CJCurrie 05:00, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

CJCurrie, please don't post here and on my talk page. I don't want to waste a lot of time discussing Homey. You used to engage in what Homey would call "tag teaming" with him (note: this would be Homey's term for it, not mine), so you're well aware of the trouble he used to cause. Then you stopped editing with him so much, which I can only hope was a recognition on your part that he had gone beyond the pale, so please don't start up again. That Homey denies something is no reason not to believe it. He is disruptive, malevolent, and disingenuous, and is thoroughly enjoying causing this fuss. If he had wanted to edit the encyclopedia quietly, there was nothing stopping him. But it's not what he wants. What he wants is THIS. SlimVirgin 05:10, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I was responding to your comments on my talk page, but as you wish. I do not agree with your assessment of this situation: I've worked with HotR on Misplaced Pages since 2004, and consider him to be a knowledgeable and productive contributor to the project. I acknowledge that he's made some mistakes in recent times, but I do not believe that anything he's done merits punishment on the level of a community block.

My intepretation of recent events is that Ex-Homey's decision to recategorize the "Sockpuppet" pages may have been unnecessarily provocative under the circumstances, but it was not disruptive (ie. it did not jeopardize the integrity of the project; designating these alt. accounts as "Sockpuppets" was always questionable). In any event, I don't believe that it's sufficient procedural grounds for a block. CJCurrie 05:33, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't know how you distinguish between "unnecessarily provocative" and disruptive. Using your def of disruptive, almost nothing would meet that standard. Look, the situation with Homey is sadly very simple. He has lost the confidence of almost all the editors who edit the pages he inhabits. More than "lost the confidence of": he is strongly disliked and not trusted by them. Even you, his staunchest ally, are forced to admit that his behavior is "unnecessarily provocative." Therefore, his editing of those pages is going to cause misery and trouble. That is a fact that nothing will change now, because he went too far, and there is now no way to repair those relationships. I tried very hard to get formal mediation started in order to avoid that total breakdown in relationships, but several others, including Homey initially, scuppered it, and then his sockpuppetry (or whatever you want to call it) started, and things went downhill from there. Therefore, in a case like this, it's not a question of deciding whether someone has lost the confidence of the community. He simply has. It has gone. SlimVirgin 05:43, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I suspect we're not going to reach full agreement on this matter. In any event, I should clarify that I said his recent behaviour "may have been" unnecessarily provocative, by which I mean that it rekindled animosities that might have been better left dormant for the time being. I do not believe this behaviour was "disruptive" to the project. CJCurrie 06:01, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Btw, Jayjg, what exactly is your rationale for listing "Sonofzion" as a HotR sock, when this was never confirmed? CJCurrie 04:30, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

It was confirmed as well as any sockpuppet can be confirmed by CheckUser. CheckUser is not a magic crystal ball, it's just another piece of evidence. Jayjg 16:30, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

SonofZion turned up as soon as Homey was blocked for 3RR and started reverting to his versions of articles, then edited articles Homeontherange had edited a long time ago under different names, and the check user evidence was consistent with it being him. SoZ claimed he knew about these articles because of a post on a discussion board for leftwing students, but he refused to say which one. It was clearly a sock or meat puppet and we don't distinguish. SlimVirgin 05:13, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Maybe my reading skills are less than yours, but I was reading likely, not confirmed. Furthermore, I have seen a Swedisch IP signing off with Sonofzion, so I am not surprised that there is doubt. -- Kim van der Linde 05:15, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Kim, please, please start reading posts before responding to them. I wrote "consistent with." The check user evidence was only a part of it, and there is no reasonable doubt. SlimVirgin 05:34, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Slimvirgin, please stop bashing people. I have read your post, and for me, likely is not equivalent with consistent with, especially not when Swedisch IP's sign of with Sonofzion. -- Kim van der Linde 05:45, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Dervish Tsaddik pretended to be Sonofzion, in order to assist Homey in sowing confusion; however, Sonofzion never used a Swedish IP, so that's irrelevant. Jayjg 16:30, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Then you don't know what "consistent with" means. Please stay out of this. Every single thing you get involved in ends up with people at each other's throats. SlimVirgin 05:59, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I will NOT stay out of this. If my pressence causes you so much stress, please take a break before responding. -- Kim van der Linde 06:04, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

CJCurrie asked me a question. I answered it. There is no need for YOU to get involved in everything. Please stop responding when I discuss issues with others. I want to have nothing more to do with you. You make no contribution to the encyclopedia. All you are is trouble. SlimVirgin 06:22, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Kim has made very significant contributions to the encyclopaedia, and to my mind, a noticeboard is not the place for two-way conversations. Regards, Samsara (talk • contribs) 10:10, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I saw that she'd e-mailed you. SlimVirgin 10:12, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, we e-mail, already from the beginning that I was at wikipedia. So? You e-mailed me too several times, and I am sure you e-mail with a bunch of other editors as well, so what? -- Kim van der Linde 16:59, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

If I may interject, I have watched this situation looking from the outside. My personal belief is that this is a clique war, and Homey became the casulity. Putting that remark aside, I see no point placing Ex-Homey under a block. This only encourages Homey to re-enter Misplaced Pages under an assumed name, and after his treatment, I can't blame him. It is better to know who your enemy is, rather than not knowing, there is nothing to gain from his ban. If he chooses to change the template of his banned accounts, so be it, I do not feel there is any harm done. I feel as though the Admin who revert those User page edits, are just spiting him, and incorrectly asserting their power. I think the behaviour of most the Admin invlovled here, really looks poorly on Misplaced Pages. Pete Peters 05:24, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean "from the outside"? From Queens University, which you attend/attended, and where Homey often edits from? Do you know Homey? Jayjg 16:30, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean by "where Homey often edits from?" I graduated and left Kingston in 2003 and have been back only once. It's quite the embellishment to refer to a single day out of the past three years as "often". Sorry Jay, but I've never met Pete Peters or even heard of him prior to the above post and as engineering is a four year program the likelihood is he started going to Queen's sometime after I left. Ex-Homey 05:44, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

SlimVirgin, as you are very involved with the disputes regarding Homeontherange, you should undo your denial for unblocking as that should be done by an uninvolved admin, as you repeatedly has indicated yourself towards other admins. Thank you. -- Kim van der Linde 05:25, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I second this request. I have specifically refrained from unblocking Ex-Homey myself, for the simple reason that I do not want to create even the appearance of a conflict of interest. CJCurrie 05:42, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Please read my post above. Homey could be unblocked a thousand times, he will always be reblocked eventually, because the confidence of the community has gone. KimvdLinde, you are in large measure responsible for this total breakdown in relationships that occurred, because you encouraged him. What was needed was formal mediation and a complete end to wikilawyering in order to get Homey back into the fold, as it were. In your wisdom, you forced the situation in the opposite direction, and now the editing relationships are beyond repair. If you want to stop making things even worse, you might consider staying out of the situation completely. SlimVirgin 05:50, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I have read your posts, stop assuming I do not. He is continuosly reblocked by the same small number of admins, most who had conflicts with him, or have made their opposition towards him more than clear. As such, neither of you is uninvolved, and neither of you should block him. If the community is so fed up with him as you claim, there should be sufficient number of uninvolved adimins who want to block him. Your accusation that I encouraged him is beyond the pale, but I have gotten used to your wrath by now. I suggest that you finally proof your accusation that I am to blaim for the breakdown of the RfM, you have made the accusation now so often without any evidence. And I suggest you stay away from homeontherange completly, because it is very clear to me that your continued emotional involvement causes the situation to escalate time and time over again. -- Kim van der Linde 06:01, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

• I strongly agree with the abouve statements by Kim van der Linde.Pete Peters 06:12, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I have no emotional involvement. All I know is this: things around Homey were always tense, because he got into a lot of conflict. But they were manageable. Then you came along with your craving for trouble, your insults, your wikilawyering, and your process fetishism. You got involved in his disputes, made them a thousand times worse than they would otherwise have been, and destroyed the remaining trust that some editors still had for him. Then you scuppered the formal mediation which might have saved him. What you forget (or never knew) is that I have known Homey a lot longer than you have, and he and I used to be very supportive of each other, so I didn't particularly want to see him go down the tube. It was in order to save those long-term editing relationships, which you neither knew nor cared about, that I tried to arrange mediation. I asked your permission to reproduce your e-mails — in which it is clear that you scuppered the mediation — for the first ArbCom case involving Homey. You refused, and said not only could I not reproduce them; I should also not mention their existence!

I don't know what you're up to, or what you hope to achieve, but this is the result, and I can only hope you'll stop before you make things even worse. SlimVirgin 06:16, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

As usual, you just assert things, with no evidence linked to it. You even now claim that some unpublished e-mails will provide the evidence to that accusation. So you want to continue the claim that my involvement was essential for the RfM?

As for the e-mails, I asked you why you needed them (Fred Bauder was cc'ed on these second series of e-mails), and I even provided you with the diffs at wikipedia that provided the same information you wanted to use the e-mails for, so there was no need for them to become public, as people write things different, and sometimes are less nuanced in e-mails than online.

If you are so affraid to make things worse, I suggest you take a few steps back yourself, and let uninvolved admins deal with the issues. You are very deeply involved now in this extended conflict, but you still try to maintain that you are not, resulting in making admin decisions even with regard to homeontherange. This is very troublesome because of your strongly expressed opinion that admins that, when they are involved even marginally in a dispute, they cannot make decisions. Apparently, you use two standards for that and that is a clear indication that you should take a step back and think some things over before telling other people not to be involved. -- Kim van der Linde 14:15, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

CJC, I have done as you requested. SlimVirgin 05:56, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. I'll remove my comments accordingly. CJCurrie 06:02, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you as well. -- Kim van der Linde 06:06, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Fred has said he supports the current block, so I hope that's the end of this latest round of disruption. SlimVirgin 09:59, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to weigh in here to point out two key things:

• The fact that an admin has taken action against an editor (through blocking, requesting checkuser, tagging socks, etc) does not mean that the admin is somehow "tainted" and not permitted to deal with user conduct problems with the same user in the future. This is a misconception that comes up frequently in the project's dealings with tenacious troublemakers who game the system. Policies such as WP:3RR, WP:BLOCK, and WP:PP only discourage admins from intervening in users with whom they have an editing dispute, that is, a content dispute. Were it not so, we would constantly have to rotate admins in dealing with a conduct problem, which is burdensome to the project because of the time it takes to understand the history behind a particular individual, as well as the very human tendency of admins to give second chances to anyone whose misconduct they have not witnessed personally.
• Given that there is widespread consensus that Homeontherange has edited with a considerable number of sock puppets, thus making it difficult for the project to track his activities, there is no need for proof or even necessarily strong evidence that any particular sock puppet is either (a) homeontherange or (b) disruptive before it can be blocked.

The Uninvited Co., Inc. 14:49, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

• My reading of this situation is a bit different. JayJG had been involved in numerous content disputes with HotR prior to the "sockpuppets" controversy, and his actions have created (at minimum) the appearance of a conflict of interest. To your second point, I don't believe there is a widespread consensus that HotR "edited with a considerable number of sock puppets". He has acknowledged creating one-day alternate accounts after quitting the HotR handle, and has specifically denied the most significant sockpuppet accusation.

• Given the contentious nature of this controversy, we should be especially wary about jumping to conclusions not supported by the facts. I do not believe it's appropriate to list "Barbamama" or "Fluffy the Cotton Fish" (for instance) as socks, when the evidence clearly points in a different direction. CJCurrie 04:30, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

"Numerous content disputes with HotR prior to the "sockpuppets" controversy?" Hardly. I barely edited his Israeli apartheid article, and we haven't been in "disputes" in months. There was no "conflict of interest", and you and Homey constantly claiming this will not make it true. In addition, I can't understand why you talk about "not supported by the facts", when you are completely unaware of them. The evidence (which you have not seen, and therefore should not have commented on) points specifically and solely to Homey (or perhaps, the aliens that took over Homey's computer) being the sockmaster of "Barbamama" or "Fluffy the Cotton Fish" . Jayjg 23:36, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Readers should note that HotR and JayJG were involved in a bitter dispute on the New anti-Semitism page shortly before the present controversy began. I'm standing by my comments as to the existence of a conflict of interest. To Jay's second point, I'm not certain that seeing the evidence would make any difference: HotR has acknowledged that he used "Barbamama" as an alternate account, and has also indicated that a housemate was the primary user of "Fluffy the Cotton Fish" (although he also posted from that account a few times). Unless Jay has some magical device that can distinguish housemate from housemate and alternate account from sockpuppet, his evidence would seem to be superfluous. CJCurrie 04:55, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

First of all I really don't see how you can state that the evidence doesn't support Barbarama and Cotton fish being socks of Homey. They edit in similar ways (although the negative characteristics of Homey are even more pronounced in those socks), they either seem to carry grudges or edit the same articles as Homey's "enemies", and as far as I know checkuser seems to all but confirm who the puppeteer is.

Second of all, Homey has gotten into multiple disputes with almost every administrator who touches the articles that he frequents. I really don't think we disqualify all these people based on your notion of "perceived conflicts-of-interest".- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 08:03, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

The above statement by Moshe about getting into conflicts with every administrator who touches articles he frequences is incorrect and misleading. There are a select number of administrators he had issues with - SlimVirgin, Jayjg and Humus Sapiens. These administrators came to the table with views that were in opposition to those of HotR and this was the original cause of conflict. --Ben Houston 15:56, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

The original cause Homey's conflicts were not "opposing views", but POV editing and outrageously aggressive behavior on his part. Jayjg 23:36, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not disputing that Barbamama and (sometimes) FtCF were alternate accounts of HotR. What I'm disputing is that they should be classified as sockpuppets. CJCurrie 18:02, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Just to clarify: Barbamama was created for the sole purpose of stalking and harassing me and Zeq but mainly me, as can be seen by reviewing its seven hours of existence. That gave it all the apperance of the psycho stalker Wordbomb. Instead it seems to be an ex-admin who has a vendetta against some other admins, and knows how to manipulate the system in what appears to be some kind of malicious game. "Wordbomb" has been actively trashing myself and SV on the Misplaced Pages Review website, so none of this is the slightest bit surprising. --Mantanmoreland 18:16, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Hmmmm... A bit of a stretch. This is an obvious clique war in which Homey was out numbered. Is this the same Zeq whose perfect behaviour is illustrated here. Pete Peters 23:49, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

No, my only interaction with "Homey" was being harassed/stalked by his "Barbamama" incarnation.--Mantanmoreland 00:57, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

A checkuser request isn't harrassment. Btw, readers might be interested to read Barbamama/HotR's first sentence in this post. CJCurrie 02:28, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, Mantanmoreland claims Barbamama "harassed/stalked" him yet the only edits referring to him were made tat WP:RFCU, it's talk page, and Talk:Fred Bauder asking that the results of a check user Fred evidently ran be posted. Perhaps Mantanmoreland believes he's entitled to a double standard? As for Zeq, his writing is often unintelligible, if Mantanmoreland really believes my edits were out of line he should go to The Abandonment Of The Jews and remove the cleanup notice I added and go to the request for undeletion page and request that the unencyclopedic Zionist Regime article be restored despite the fact that the AFD page I opened at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Zionist Regime was met with a significant consensus to nix the page. Ex-Homey 05:44, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

CJCurrie, in a previous post on August 4 to AN/I about his sockpuppetry, Homey explicitly denied being Fluffy the Cotton Fish. He wrote:"User:Fluffy the Cotton Fish and User:4thright, for instance, were not the same person who used User:Homeontherange. I did use a few of the alleged sockpuppets after I junked Homeontherange but did so on a temporary basis (ie one day each) without bothering to retain the password ..." Now, however, he seems to be saying that he was Fluffy the Cotton Fish, but insists it was an "alternate account" (i.e. one not being used for the purposes of deception) and not a sockpuppet account. How do you square these various claims? SlimVirgin 23:43, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

The answer is here. I referenced this above (albeit obliquely), when I wrote "I'm not disputing that Barbamama and (sometimes) FtCF were alternate accounts of HotR." CJCurrie 02:28, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Right. But he said he wasn't Fluffy the Cotton Fish. How do you reconcile that with the current claim that he did use that account? SlimVirgin 05:01, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

HotR wasn't FtCF, but he used the account a few times. This isn't a contradiction. (and see below). CJCurrie 05:10, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

That's hardly an answer. He said "User:Fluffy the Cotton Fish and User:4thright, for instance, were not the same person who used User:Homeontherange" He claimed they were not the same people, then changed his claim to say that they were the same people, just using "alternate accounts". In fact, he claimed every single one of his sockpuppets was an "alternate account", except the one he tried to pawn off on Dervish Tsaddik. Jayjg 02:34, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

The full quote is: the accounts were not being operated by a single person though they were using a shared semi-public IP in the computer room of a co-op. User:Fluffy the Cotton Fish and User:4thright, for instance, were not the same person who used User:Homeontherange. This statement is accurate: FtCF was a different user, although HotR has acknowledged that he also posted from the account a few times. CJCurrie 04:55, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

No, you're picking the wrong quote. Homey said: "User:Fluffy the Cotton Fish and User:4thright, for instance, were not the same person who used User:Homeontherange." How do you reconcile that with what he's now saying? SlimVirgin 05:03, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Here's the complete quote: f) the accounts were not being operated by a single person though they were using a shared semi-public IP in the computer room of a co-op. User:Fluffy the Cotton Fish and User:4thright, for instance, were not the same person who used User:Homeontherange. I did use a few of the alleged sockpuppets after I junked Homeontherange but did so on a temporary basis (ie one day each) without bothering to retain the password as I do not wish to return to wikipedia permanently. He later wrote the following message to the FtCF page: This account has been used by Homeontherange but mostly by his housemate. Neither of these statements constitutes a falsehood, and the worst HotR is guilty of is not adding "... although I posted from the account a few times" in the first instance. CJCurrie 05:17, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

CJ, how do you know which was a sock puppet and which a meat puppet? Also, as you know (and as Homey as an ex-admin must know), WP:SOCK does not distinguish between the two. SlimVirgin 05:01, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Hey, cool the language. Pete Peters 05:06, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe FtCF was a sockpuppet or a meatpuppet. HotR has said that the account was used primarily by someone else in his co-op, and that he made use of the account a few times. Neither of these assertions strains credulity -- and since HotR had stopped using the HotR account at the time, neither 'puppetry charge is applicable to the situation. CJCurrie 05:10, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

SV's obsession with me (or perhaps more correctly her obsession at this point with undoing SimonP's upbraiding of her on her talk page) is impressive in all its tragicomic proportions but not terribly productive. This matter is at an end. I will now follow the advice of SimonP and Fred made in this thread several days ago and fully expect Slim and the gang to follow it as well. Given all the self-justifying nonsense from SV, Jay, Moshe and now Mantanmoreland I will repost it below in case it's been forgotten:

If another account like User:Fluffy the Cotton Fish appears and starts making a stream of productive edits, I see no reason to not let Homey quietly work under the new name. - SimonP 01:23, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

More to it than that, but based primarily on SimonP's position I am relieving Ex-homey from the condition I imposed on him. He says he may create another account to edit with quietly. Should it be found using checkuser, please leave it alone unless it is doing something wrong. Fred Bauder 20:11, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

And so it goes.Ex-Homey 05:44, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Icon ads spam making it like Misplaced Pages promotes commercial sites

Regularly, ads icons are inserted in front of external links, that make it look like Misplaced Pages treats them special, promoting or endorsing those sites. This gets worse now with the templates used for external links to IMDb, MusicBrainz, etc.

• [http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Template:MusicBrainz_album&diff=next&oldid=41410972 Diff of the latest insertion of an icon ad in the template for MusicBrainz external links
• Last.fm spam icon This external links icon ad for Last.fm keeps popping up right and left.

We really could use a specific, explicit point of policy against this (and a direct WP:ICONAD or WP:SPAMICON or something), that could be immediately cited in the edit summary for removing or reverting this spam without long discussions with each "new user" doing the spamming for those sites. We could also mention it in bold as a NoInclude warning in the related templates, so as to remove plausible denial to future offenders.

-- 62.147.37.34 23:29, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Just revert it like it was normal spam. Plus, it is a violation of fair use rules to use images in this manner. User:Zscout370 23:39, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Image:MusicBrainz Album Icon.png is supposedly GFDL, though. --Sam Blanning 23:53, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, but we do not need icons, IMHO, to denote links to random websites. Just remove them. If there is any more problems, come see us. User:Zscout370 00:13, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I think getting some background may be useful, from the folks at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_MusicBrainz, for example. They may have some reasoning you're unaware of. · rodii · 00:26, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I am not opposed to the linking, since I have used template-links for FOTW, but the main issue for discussion is the little icon that appears next to the link. User:Zscout370 01:07, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

We should get rid of these even if the MusicBrainz project wants to keep them. We would not insert Apple logos all over Misplaced Pages even if there was an Itunes project that wanted to keep them. Yeah, Musicbrainz is a .org and releases some stuff under free licenses, but the interesting stuff is under CC-NC, making it nonfree, and who knows what will eventually happen with it. This sounds like Gracenote all over again. Fool me once... Phr (talk) 01:27, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't care if it were Feed the Children.org, personally, as that's them, and we're us. We don't priviledge links, and putting an identifying graphic in front of a link is priviledging or deprecating. We don't do that. Geogre 02:24, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

it's not as simple. We privilege competent and important sites for being competent and important. This is a content dispute like any other, to be addressed both on a case-by-case basis and by policy debate (what sort of icons do we want, at all?). dab (ᛏ) 09:02, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Respectfully, Dab, we priviledge the good ones by inclusion or by classification within the article. The question raised here is, I think, wider than a particular article, as it is asking for policy on the use of graphical elements with links. In the absence of policy we do what? That seems to be the crux of it. My version would be "in the absence of policy, we make an article look like all the others and do not use graphical elements in links, whether the links are good or bad." We can, in text body, say, "See Linktext for more information," or, in the links, "Linksite: An excellent review of the subject," but I would suggest that inserting graphical elements is a bad idea. It is a bad idea for a variety of reasons, but the chief one is the one the questioner brought up: it makes the link special on a universal basis and without explanation. Geogre 12:13, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm just saying, this is a case for WP:VP/P, not for admin intervention. I tend to be generally anti-icons, but there are various icons in use with external links, and some templates even have built-in links to external databases. dab (ᛏ) 14:52, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

With the caveat that this is indeed the wrong place for this, I'd be against any sort of icon propogation in links. It's decoration (which is avowedly against fair use, as we all now know), and even if it's a free-use image, it's tacky and prejudicial. -- nae'blis 15:00, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not aware of any of those templates (e.g. Template:Imdb) including icons. This spewing of Musicbrainz icons might be an example of BEBOLD but should be reverted as BRD. They are a departure from existing practice that's existed for a good reason. There's nothing wrong with a VPP policy discussion but the initial state of that discussion should be with the icons gone, not with them presented as a fait accompli to possibly be reversed. Phr (talk) 15:17, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think we should be putting icons in front of links. They're just reference external links, they should be treated the same as any other. Images should really only be used in an article as necessary, not gratuitously for decoration. Remember, we are making an encyclopedia that is to be as freely and widely redistributable as possible. The excess images might get in the way of that. --Cyde Weys 15:16, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

That's the insidious thing, the rationale for these icons is that Musicbrainz has made the icon itself GFDL. All we need next is for Discount Viagra Spam dot Com to make some GFDL icons and start spewing those in the encyclopedia too. Phr (talk) 16:03, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Excellent summary, User:Geogre @ 12:13, 14 August 2006 (UTC). Sorry if I wasn't very clear about two things:

• I have nothing against MusicBrainz, or against external links to MusicBrainz, or against templates for external links to MusicBrainz (and IMDb, etc.).
• I am only very concerned about the Pandora box of those little spam icons that keep getting added to external links, and thus make some sites look special and endorsed. And the templates just make it easier to spam (the spam icon on the MusicBrainz template stayed for 10 days until I reverted it, and is already on display on 400+ articles).

Also:

• To answer User:Phr, it's not a matter of BEBOLD (because of the persistent additions after some debates), but the lack of an explicit point of policy against it: those icons keep getting added or sneaked in -- today again it was sneaked in for the 3rd or 4th time by CyberSkull who just sneaks it in every time he works on the template, and just shrugs that MusicBrainz is nonprofit when called on his sneaking it again.
• Besides, after all those putting back the spamicon, isn't there ground for a Misplaced Pages:Checkuser of the false newuser User:Preacher Bob against User:CyberSkull (sneaked it 3 or 4 times) and User:Cparker (asked for it on the talk page)?

Last but not least, User:Dbachmann is right about my posting here, of course: all my apologies for forgetting to mention here that this message was actually crossposted for

• → WP:VPP#Icon_ads_spam_making_it_like_Wikipedia_promotes_commercial_sites

-- 62.147.39.42 02:27, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Leyasu sock blocked

I have blocked VandalismCorrecter (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) as a likely sock of Leyasu (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). This newcomer has also been using surprisingly deceiving edit summaries ( ) and removed numerous references from Gothic metal, both of which would probably warrant a moreor less short block anyway. Circeus 01:22, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

User has sent me a mail requesting unblock with at best misleading argument. It'll be available to whoever is interested. I am not planning to make a detailed explanation of the multiple issues with this user's editing, as the last thing we want is a harder to spot Leyasu. more Circeus 02:00, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Since I wasn't sure, I requested a checkuser at Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/Leyasu. VandalismCorrecter's arguments were slightly more convincing to me than they were to Circeus, but the IPs that Leyasu and VandalismCorrecter are using (see WP:AE) are very close and look like they must be from the same range. I've asked Circeus to unblock VandalismCorrecter after the checkuser request comes back, unless the result is Confirmed or Highly Likely. --Idont Havaname (Talk) 04:36, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, it kind of looks like a violation of USERNAME with the name... or is it just me -- Tawker 08:05, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

It does to me too. At best, if the two usernames belong to different users, VandalismCorrecter should consider changing his username. --Idont Havaname (Talk) 18:38, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Update: Checkuser confirmed VandalismCorrecter to be a sock. Circeus 12:56, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

YaR GnitS

Policing this sock farm is getting increasingly tedious, mainly because of the sheer number of socks and the puppeteer interfering with the process.

Any suggestions?--Rosicrucian 01:25, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

And this is what I'm talking about. Twelve socks and counting, and this one's not even banned yet.--Rosicrucian 04:41, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, now it is. Next letter in the alphabet, I guess.--Rosicrucian 04:55, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Now the lovable scamp has left me the following via one of the usual AOL proxy IPs--Rosicrucian 05:38, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not bashful about listing my puppets, I'm dead serious User: AOL yada has no official affiliation to User: YaR GnitS. I'd never even heard of Aol yada until I saw it listed here. If it really follows my posts, then I guess it's just a fan. But if I was hiding puppets, why would I post them myself?

Listen, this deeply offends me, and if User: AOL yada isn't removed from the list by Tuesday 08/15 12:00am GMT, YaR GnitS & co. will double its efforts daily!

Also, FYI your post on the talk page is incorrect, all my info is pre-set, so I just add a suffix, and I'm good to go. For clicking "create a account" to submitting my ICP post, on an edit it takes less than 2min., often less than 1. On a create-a-page, it takes less than 3min. I'm pretty sure the greater effort is on the admin's end. ~YaR GnitS

And he's now trying to remove the sock tag from User:AOL yada via anonymous IP, and spamming this message on that page.--Rosicrucian 15:57, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me, why did you tag my account as a sockpuppet? Just becuase someone decided that creating a sockpuppet tag with an autoblock feature was 'disruptive' doesn't mean that I'm a sockpuppet of anyone, and I wasn't removing sockpuppet tags, I was replacing them with the now deleted template. I got tired of getting hit with collateral damage from YaR GnitS so I created a template, someone didn't like the template, so block, and delete, nothing about that is sockish. If you care to do a checkuser you'll see I wasn't even logged in from an AOL proxy range, rather from a 172, which is not the least bit anonymous. So, if you wouldn't mind....--172.148.239.154 21:50, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

If someone would like to take a look at the template in question, is just a sockpuppet tag, with an autoblock feature and notice to watch for collateral. The same feautre was worked into Template:Sockpuppet a few hours later. Just after the discussion here, not to mention here.--172.148.239.154 22:00, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I have contacted the original banning admin to see if he can lend some insight. However, since you made a broad sweep of switching the sock tags on the socks of YaR GnitS, and since it is a violation of WP:DENY, I just thought it was more likely you were a sock, considering his own edits.--Rosicrucian 02:09, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

{{User Modernbushido}} and Cyde

It's this one again. For the THIRD TIME, this template has been deleted without a TfD, and without my notice by Cyde (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA). Thi is very disconcerting to me, especially since it was deleted for "Cross-namespace redirect, see WP:ASR", which makes no sense, since its a template (not a redirect) and not a self-reference. Normally at this point I would contact Cyde, but I have found that Cyde tends to attack, flame, and ban people who speak against him for no reason, violating basically everything in WP:CIVIL at once.

I undertstand that the German Userbox Solution moves the templates to User Space, but also, compromise and consensus must be followed. according to WP:GUS, "Compromise is the source of community."

Someone should speak to Cyde about his problem with civility and the way he treats other users. He seems to have a lack of Wikilove, and that should be addressed. Perhaps he does not understand the full impact of community consensus, especially when it applies to controversial subjects. Admins should not be above the law, they should be the epitome of it.

~ Porphyric Hemophiliac § 14:40, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I've had similar problems, so I can endorse this (minus the incivility). Cyde has spent alot of time deleting templates without discussion, without a TfD, and with no better reasons that unclosed polls such as GUS. When questioned, Cyde barely says two words. Since then, a template I use for a WikiProject has been moved to another namespace. This leaves me with the notion that it was done so an admin can get his/her way, and be done with it. SynergeticMaggot 14:55, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Just userfy it and be done with it per WP:GUS. I'm rather annoyed that you kept on recreating it behind my back hoping I wouldn't notice, by the way. --Cyde Weys 15:12, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Its been userfied, if you bothered to read my comment. And this is exactly what I mean. If you bothered to read GUS, there is more of a consensus to leave WikiProject user boxes in the template namespace. Mind if I ask under what criteria you are using to delete these? SynergeticMaggot 15:18, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

What would be wrong with putting WikiProject userboxes as subpages of the WikiProject? That makes it them who own it. Sam Korn 15:20, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I was just deleting the newly created userboxes, which go against the spirit of WP:GUS (what's the point of userfication if dozens more templates are created each day?) WikiProject-related userboxes should be housed under the projectspace to which they refer, i.e. "Misplaced Pages:WikiProject BlahBlah/Userbox", rather than just being out there stranded in template-space. --Cyde Weys 15:21, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

• I don't like templates very often. I don't like userboxes at all. I don't like tags, except procedural ones. I don't even like categories all that much. All of that, and yet I've been surprised and unhappy to see the way some people have been speedy deleting these things without using existing structures. Use the process, Luke. Use the process. When we don't use the policy, we establish a two tier site, where admins do what they like, and regular users are at their mercy. That's not our structure, it has not been our structure, and it should not become our structure, lest we empower all the administrator-paranoiacs. Geogre 15:21, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
  • It's easy to say, very hard to do in practice. You want me to file 40 new TFDs everyday?! It doesn't make sense that anyone can create this stuff en masse, but then we have to go through the whole rigamarole of process just to get rid of them when they shouldn't have been created in templatespace in the first place. --Cyde Weys 15:23, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
  • I understand, and I'm no more enchanted with these things than you are, but, pending an injunction or something clear about what they can and cannot be, we really don't have much choice in the matter. Whenever I've gone to a longtime problem user's page, it has been lit up like a pachinko board with boxes, and having more than one "joke" box stops being funny and crosses into juvenalia, but we don't have the bones yet for doing anything about it. Geogre 19:05, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Where is the process? A large portion deleted by Cyde did not fall under the speedy criteria. Cyde says it goes against the spirit of GUS. I dont seem to see this under CSD either. This appears more like an admin's opinion rather than policy.

Cyde: Maybe if you took your time and didnt rush into things, they would end up so complicated? Whats done is done I suppose? I'm asking for them to be undeleted as well. If you feel so strongly that so many templates need to be deleted, maybe you should request for a speedy be added to CSD, or some other more valid reason to one of the policies. Instead of what appears to be abuse of adminship. SynergeticMaggot 15:28, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Abuse of adminship? Sigh. If you want these things preserved, just userfy them. It's that simple. That's really all there is to it. That's what WP:GUS is about. --Cyde Weys 15:37, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

What else should I call it? You have gone against a poll, which is not closed, and has current consensus to remain in template namespace. For reference: WP:GUSP#Misplaced Pages-related. I'll ask again, under what criteria have you deleted these? This time, I'd appreciate an answer. SynergeticMaggot 15:50, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

The difference between the letter and the spirit of WP:GUS is probably worth remembering, as is WP:BITE, since I would suggest that this also applies to editors venturing into a new area. Obviously, informing people of what's happening via leaving them a message in their talk page would prevent so much hassle - with a polite enough notice, people would probably appologise and move it themselves. And once people have been warned once about this, there is better ground to stand on. LinaMishima 16:58, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Additional - surely Cydebot could be made to automate the entire process of notifying authors, changing templates on userpages and moving the userbox? Since then their pages will be without red text, most people would be non-the-wiser, and the author would understand why. That way Cyde can continue to attempt to impliment the WP:GUS, even if it's not policy? LinaMishima 17:05, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

So wait, you're suggesting that Cyde's bot can continue to ignore process now? I'm still waiting for another admin to tell me that what Cyde is doing it correct. That admins can ignore consensus and do what they please. SynergeticMaggot 17:35, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

No, of course not. I am, however, suggesting a compromise. I'm quite sure that although the lack of due process would still irritate, a fair ammount of upset would be reduced if the authors were kept informed and no-one's userpage was broken. LinaMishima 19:15, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I should note that I am suggesting a compromise until such a time as this matter is properly settled, rather than a compromise as the solution. That is not to say that the compromise cannot be a solution, but such a think is doubtful. LinaMishima 19:18, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Cyde:I'm rather annoyed that you kept on recreating it behind my back hoping I wouldn't notice, by the way.

Ok, what? I recreated it because I thought that it had been deleted by mistake, since I had received no notice, and there was big red link on my page; I commented as such. I didn't go behind your back. It had nothing to do with you. And yes, I think that "abuse of adminship" is a correct term. ~ Porphyric Hemophiliac § 19:38, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Let me explain. I had requested via IRC that the template be restored. I checked the category linked from DRV, for admins who will undeleted, so long as it is in good faith. So I contacted AmiDaniel. And in turn, AmiDaniel undeleted. I have never previously discussed the matter with any other admin, so I hope this clears up at least that much. SynergeticMaggot 20:10, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

This is all very, very simple, and I'm really sick of everyone on both sides bickering over userboxes to no end. 1) WP:GUS does not justify the deletion of anything except resulting redirects. 2) The deletion of userboxes in templatespace that are not divisive and inflammatory is not justified without a TfD. 3) Nonetheless, WikiProject affiliation userboxes make a hell of a lot more sense in project space than in templatespace. So the solution is very simple: Stop creating the userboxes in templatespace, and, Cyde, when you come across such a userbox in template space, use the nifty little move tab to put it in project space and then delete the resulting redirect. Then we can stop having these annoying and pointless discussions about absofuckinglutely nothing and get on with work that actually benefits the encyclopedia. AmiDaniel (talk) 20:32, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Yay. --mboverload@ 22:44, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps you don't understand the situation. the problem is not with WP:GUS. The problem is with an adminstrator who abused his powers in order to throw all procedure out the window...again. You said it yourself: WP:GUS does not justify the deletion of anything except resulting redirects. The deletion of userboxes in templatespace that are not divisive and inflammatory is not justified without a TfD. The userbox was simply deleted, not substed or userfied. It was just GONE, leaving a red link. I had to recreate it myself on user space. Now do you see the problem? ~ Porphyric Hemophiliac § 01:46, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

The process works. If someone wants it userfied, it is. If no one wants it userfied, it stays deleted. There's no point in userfying hundreds of templates that no one cares about and that no one is going to use. --Cyde Weys 03:07, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

How are you supposed to know who wants the box userfied without a TfD? Are you psychic? You are NOT above the rules. You ignored procedure. Plus, the box was in use by several people, including myself. Or do you not consider me a person? If not, say so now. ~ Porphyric Hemophiliac § 20:51, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Here is a solution that LA came up with to userfy the boxes Userfy Userboxes You can place boxes there to be userfied. May help for future box issues. Æon 15:45, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

User:Gene Nygaard pages moves

Hi, this user is moving pages with diacritics to versions without them only because there was no redirect from the unaccented version (e.g.). He refuses to make simple redirects because it does not teach the involved editors to make redirects. Three users protested his actions, but he is still insisting on his own way. See related talk section. I have no time or will to babysit him and revert the moves. Please do something about it. Thank you. Renata 17:34, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Mr. Nygaard seems to be on the edge (or beyond) of WP:POINT, but well-intentioned. Perhaps if a few admins weighed in we could channel his desire to help more effectively. Martinp 01:00, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I have restored this comment to the noticeboard as this editor has continued moving pages despite eight editors asking him to stop or reverting his edits - a clear action against consensus.

Just one example: Rétság was moved to Retsag today. Now, for no encyclopaedic reason, it is the single Hungarian place in its category without the correct diacritics, and all the internal links point to a redirect. This is not a good thing.

Gene claims on his talk page that he moves the pages (rather than creating the necessary redirect) to make a point to the original page creator that they should have created a diacriticless redirect earlier. As mentioned by Martinp, this breaches WP:POINT; this editor should not be working against consensus, disturbing consistent naming schemes and creating needless redirect, RFM and page move work for other editors in order to attract attention to a cause.

Administrator help for the clear-up would be much appreciated, too. Aquilina 16:51, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I would add that he does not seem to look for a compromise. Renata 16:58, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree entirely. Something should be done about this. —freak(talk) 17:01, Aug. 14, 2006 (UTC)

If we can collide him with User:Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (who did a huge number of disruptive pagemoves in sort of the opposite direction recently) would there be a matter-antimatter explosion? Phr (talk) 17:09, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I've reverted Gene's latest moves. He does seem to be doing more harm than good, despite having a perfectly valid point about unaccented redirects. — sjorford++ 17:13, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I've left a warning on his user page. If he continues I think a 1 hour block would make sense (I don't want to block for longer because this is minor and Gene is a generally good contributor). JoshuaZ 17:24, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I have left a message on his talk page as well. Regardless of his motives - and I believe, from long experience, Gene has the best interests of the project at heart - this is not the way to go about things, and only inflames people. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 17:44, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

The issue of non-English-alphabet names needs to have a clear policy -- something to be decided from above. I have made it my rule so far to create articles with the native name, creating redirects for all the Anglicized versions. I agree that Gene's policy of anglicizing article names (without that being a clear WP policy) does more harm than good -- Palthrow 18:44, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't see a big issue, I thought we have guidelines (see the RAN incident) that we name the article with the most common English spelling, e.g. John von Neumann instead of Neumann János. But in the cases where the name isn't commonly used in English, we use the native spelling. Phr (talk) 19:24, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

So, according to the very valid points you are making--no determination has yet been made as to the proper English Misplaced Pages title in the articles I am moving. Therefore, no one has any real grounds for complaint against my moves. The unaccented form has not yet been considered by anyone. If you disagree with my choice as to the particular title, you can discuss it on that articles talk page. Or, you can even revert me--but at least we don't end up with the totally unacceptable position which prevailed before. If you do revert me, the redirect will remain. That means that someone who sees some word or name of a person or place in an English language newspaper or magazine story will now at least have a reasonable chance to find the Misplaced Pages article on the subject, if one exists. That wasn't the case before.

Sure, in many cases it really doesn't matter all that much which of the various spellings and forms appears in the article title, as long as you can find the article by slapping on the squigglies after I have moved it to the English form, or whatever. What is totally unacceptable is not to have a search for the English alphabet version work. Gene Nygaard 02:26, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

A couple of other things to consider:

1. After my moves, all links from forms with accents still work and still get you to the proper article.
2. After my moves, entering the accented form into the "Go" box still works.
3. After my moves, many former redlinks are now blue, and take you to the correct article.
4. After my moves, entering the English alphabet form in the "Go" box works as well, something that wasn't true before.

Actually, there are almost no places where you will even notice that the article has been moved, when it comes to finding information in Misplaced Pages.

Furthermore, many of these articles are accompanied by another problem--not being indexed properly in the categories. It isn't a one-to-one correspondence; some of those missing any connection the the English alphabet form have already been indexed properly (and in most cases, appear as they should in the same place in the list whether the accents are included in the article title or not), and some with the article title in an unaccented version have improper use of diacritics in the indexing sort keys. But quite often the two problems go hand in hand. Gene Nygaard 02:40, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Al those things you mention in the numbered bullets would be correct if you made a simple redirect! And for the record, Gene moved 2 more pages after posting here. Renata 11:56, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

The problem with redirects is that they are invisible.

One of the major problems with that is that you miss out on the knowledge of those people who know when a letter is often transliterated as two letters rather than one (dj, dz, aa, ou, etc.), and can thus also create redirects from the other spellings as well. If their attention isn't called to the problem, because we only made an invisible semi-fix to one particular article, then that is missed. One of the problems, of course, is that a single character can be transliterated differently in different languages, so there is not any one size fits all solution, even if I were to bother even trying to learn all those silly rules for each of the thousands of possible characters. Gene Nygaard 12:57, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Ten people have told you to stop.

• A redirect does not move a page to a name inconsistent with all the other related articles in its category, unlike your moves.
• A redirect does not need WP:RM and an admin to undo, unlike some of your moves.
• A redirect does not require a team of editors to waste their time reverting your contributions needlessly, unlike your moves.
• A redirect does not move the page does not move the page to an arbitrary transliteration like your moves do - you even admit you don't fully understand transliteration schemes above.
• A redirect does not cause multiple double redirects which you don't bothered to fix, unlike your moves.

Gene, these are just a few of the reasons people have told you to stop. If you want to highlight something to editors, put a reminder on their user talk pages, or bring it up on the community policy talk pages: do not abuse page moves. You have carried on moving pages unnecessarily , despite multiple warnings, and you have clearly declared your intent to carry on ("I shall continue to express my choice in my way" - ). This wasting of other contributors' time to prove a point should not continue. Aquilina 17:35, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Gene, how many other people need to tell you to stop? Or do we need to get in the business of blocks and RfCs? No one wants that, everyone thinks your intentions are well, but please stop. Renata 17:57, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

So, try this. Put "Taniko" in the box on your Misplaced Pages page. Then click on either "Go" or "Search". Do you find an article dealing with a weaving technique? As I write this, you won't.

Now figure out some other way to find the article dealing with that weaving technique. Then show me by example how your method works, what you'd do to fix the problem. Show me whose talk page you'd go to, and what you'd say, and let me know how well it works.

Or are you just interested in being a pest and disrupting things? Gene Nygaard 00:21, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Jtkiefer

Some rather ugly things coming to light at Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/Jtkiefer 3: Jtkiefer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), who is also apparently Pegasus1138 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), has had various interesting interactions between his accounts, including responding to his 3RR report, telling himself that he won't block himself for 3RR, supporting himself for a bot flag (but opposing his own RFA), double-voting on RFAs, and other such things. What do we do now? I would suggest an indefinite block of at least one of the accounts—perhaps with a shorter block on the other—and possibly a checkuser to see if he has any other sockpuppets waiting in the wings. Kirill Lokshin 16:37, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I have indefinitely blocked Pegasus1138 as an admitted sockpuppet engaged in devious activity. I would support a long block -- even an indefinite one -- on Jtkiefer, but will not impose it myself, given his history of hostility to me. Xoloz 16:54, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Support, way beyond anything acceptable. -- Kim van der Linde 17:03, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Some other strange goings-on here that may relate to this case. Kirill Lokshin 17:00, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

My apologies for top-posting, but use RFAR. This is a picture perfect RFAR situation and the living example of a thing not to be done by head nods on AN/I. Geogre 19:47, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

So is User:Thygard another sockpuppet? A checkuser seems strongly in order. JoshuaZ 17:05, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

What makes you suspect that? Editor88 17:06, 11 August 2006 (UTC) Never mind... I've got it figured out. 17:07, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I am in the strange position of having some good memories of Jtkiefer (and incidentally, bad ones of Pegasus). At this time, and based on this evidence, I would not yet be willing support an indefinite block. While there is evidence of abusive sockpuppetry, and the puppets should be blocked, so far I don't see enough evidence of the kind of persistent disruption that normally motivates an indefinite block. Dragons flight 17:20, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I have indefinitely blocked Thygard for the same reason as Pegasus1138. Xoloz 17:09, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Moved from WP:AN

Due to the gravity of the persistent and repeated abuses of trust reported in the course of Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_adminship/Jtkiefer_3, I propose that we ban him from Misplaced Pages . --Tony Sidaway 17:16, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Not sure. His actions convince me that he should never be an admin, and any future RfAs should be speedily closed. He should also be limmited to one account. But aside from that, I think probation rather than a ban is in order. There is no evidence (that I know of) that he's been a particularly disruptive editor. Arbcom might be better than an outright ban. --Doc 17:19, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Per Doc, I would suggest an RfArb over anything else. — FireFox _{17:21, 11 August '06}

Hi, everyone. I must say that I disagree with a community ban. I know I'm not an admin, but I have just finished looking over the situation out of my own curiosity, and I don't believe that he's actually harmful. I agree that his potential future RfAs should be speedily closed and he should be limited to one account, but I don't think an indefinite ban is necessary - I'd say ArbCom. Sorry if I'm out of place... Srose (talk) 17:26, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Your comments are certainly not out of place. (Particularly since you are agreeing with me - which shows your inate wisdom ;).) --Doc 17:28, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Doc is, I think, quite right, and his suggestions seem roughly orthogonal with those of Cyde infra. Jtk should be limited to one account, of course, with the provision that his creating a sockpuppet for the purpose of disrupting projectspace will be strongly disfavored; his mainspace participation seems to be altogether fine, and I don't think there's any risk of disruption relative to work on articles. I'm not certain that a year-long ban from RfA is in order—his only sockpuppeteering at RfA seems to have been relative to his own RfAs, and I can't imagine that he'll be requesting adminship anytime soon—since he may have particular prescience apropos of the judgment of prospective admins, but I don't think such a ban would be particularly wrong. Joe 17:44, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

So how about this: Jtkiefer is put on a standard one-year probation with an added provision of being banned from RFA and its subpages (for one year). He is also limited to only one account. --Cyde Weys 17:31, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Concur, for reasons enumerated above. Joe 17:44, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

He should also be banned from WP:FPC for sockpuppet voting there as well. -Ravedave 18:14, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think we should close the admin window on him permanently - changes can happen outside of one's imagination. I do, however, prefer that he be required go through Editor review before his next admin application. Editor88 17:33, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I say ArbCom and RFC (should have been RFCU). I definitely feel there should be consequences over this, but a community ban seems a bit much. So ArbCom to get official status of some consequences/limits, and RFC to find any other current problem socks. - TexasAndroid 17:34, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

RFC? Maybe a straight checkuser would be more effective in actually finding out what his other socks are? Kirill Lokshin 17:41, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Sigh. Checkuser is exactly what I meant. I just typed the wrong acronym. Sorry for any confusion. - TexasAndroid 17:47, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I was going to say. RFC in this case would just become a venue to bash him. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 17:54, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

There's a lot of ugly in that RFA, but if he can agree to having only one account, there's a possibility he can still be a useful editor (though not an admin or anything with additional trust, apparently). Very sad to see this occur...I think Cyde has an acceptable compromise here. Are you actually intending to forbid him from voting on RFAs, though? -- nae'blis 17:35, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes. Given his use of sockpuppets to get muliple votes on at least three previous RFAs (that we know of), there need to be some consequences and provisions to ensure the integrity of the process. --Cyde Weys 17:43, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Good point, I was just making sure I understood your proposal. I'm not entirely certain how CheckUser works (not having the bit), is it only done on comparison of users, or does it reveal all users at a particular IP? I ask because it would make a difference in my confidence of all socks being caught/gone... -- nae'blis 18:00, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Agree with finding his various sockpuppets, it would help over at WP:FPC -Ravedave 18:14, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

• Indef ban may be a bit of an overkill, but I would support a RfAr hearing on all these. - Mailer Diablo 17:36, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

• ArbCom is probably a cleaner way of going about this than a straight ban; but the various sockpuppets should be blocked outright. There's no need to risk having some of them slip under the radar at this point. Kirill Lokshin 17:41, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Just bringing it to everyone's attention: . — FireFox _{17:36, 11 August '06}

• I think indef block is too harsh, but placing Jtkiefer on probation for a year would be suitable. The socks should be indef blocked of course. Doubt an ArbComm case would be productive, there's really not much to arbitrate. -- Миборовский 17:55, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

• I think that Jtkiefer could be a good article editor again but should not be given any positions of trust, or allowed to comment or vote on them, until maturity has been demonstrated. I'd rather see him restricted to his current account with some curbs in place (no standing or running for admin, arb, or 'crat, and no commenting on other candidacies, not commenting/voting on anything else either) instead of his setting up another identity which then has to be managed/monitored somehow (and without fishing around it might be hard to do that anyway...) ++Lar: t/c 19:10, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

• One oppose vote by a new editor was odd to me in Jtkiefer's RfA. Namely by Republitarian (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). The user registered 2 days ago and started editing with edit summaries etc. Just strikes odd, with that previous self-oppose incident also. feydey 19:30, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Not one of mine, sorry to burst the bubble of anyone who expects to find more socks, Pegasus and Thygard were my only two. Jtkiefer 19:35, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Don't bother

Don't bother, I am perfectly capable of knowing where and when I am not wanted and I am obviously not wanted here, please also indef. block Jtkiefer if it'll make you feel better but I'll save you all the trouble and go through a self imposed wiki-ban, for the record all I ever wanted to do was help the project, everything I did was an attempt to help though I honestly don't expect you all to believe that, well so long and thanks for all the fish. Jtkiefer ---- 17:44, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

To the contrary, you are wanted so long as you make good contributions, and not the types of shenanigans that have upset so many. - Taxman 17:49, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

To be fair, while recent revelations have been distressing, the person most hurt by Jtkiefer's behaviour is almost certainly Jtkierer, himself. And the fact of opposing his sockpuppet's RfA suggests that this is not a straightforward case of duplicity for the motive of gain, but that the user may have been going through problems that we know nothing about. AnnH ♫ 00:45, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

(sigh) It's not that you are not wanted, just that certain behavior is not wanted. All discussion here seems to be related to project-space problems; can you handle being "just" an article editor for a while, to re-establish trust? -- nae'blis 18:00, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. Jt, I don't believe you would dispute that your actions have been less than appropriate. People are responding to them differently, and at this point the community has not come to any kind of decision -- and I don't suppose that it would be reasonable for you to expect that all of this be forgotten at the drop of a hat: if you want this to be let go eventually, the first step is to own it, that is, accept responsibility for the mistakes made.
I don't have a crystal ball, of course, but if I had to guess, I'd say you are not likely to be banned, but you are equally unlikely to become an administrator, or to hold any kind of special position in this community. If you can settle for being an editor (and doing it from a single account), who knows, in the future (granted, it would take a lot more time than "usual"), you might even arrive at a point where the community will we willing to trust you with Admin tools again. But if you up and leave now, nothing gets resolved, and the last memory of your participation in the project would be this debacle. Would you say that's fair? Be patient; accept responsibility. And don't get angry because people are having a hard time digesting what has happened, since that's not fair either. Redux 18:16, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

<de-indent> I thought I did, anyway yes I do take responsibility for what I was doing was wholly innapropriate and wrong and I apologize for violating everyone's trust, in my defense of Pegasus1138 though that sock was actually known and permitted by both Jimmy Wales and the arbitration committee in respone to the RFA/RFB incident that happened between the two accounts. Jtkiefer 18:35, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

No, Jt is correct to some extent. He/She certainly IS unwanted by some of us. The unbelievable and offensive arrogance he/she showed at WP:FPC speaks volumes. --Dante Alighieri | Talk 20:39, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Not to mention to arrogance of self-nominating a sock puppet for RfA four times. -Will Beback 20:58, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Good article editors are welcome always, but this user should never be an admin. Thatcher131 (talk) 21:23, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

The regularity with which this user has attempted to gain "authority" over others here (and the underhanded tactics utilized) indicates (IMO) that he/she should be banned permanently from the Misplaced Pages. There is no place in our community for someone with the mindset that this user displays. --Dante Alighieri | Talk 21:27, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Solution

As I've said I am going on a self imposed Wikiban from this account and the other 2 have already been blocked and I fully agree to a community enforced one account probation, however due to the strong feelings in this case I am loathe to do it on this account and once this discussion has died down I will be scrambling my passwords on this and the other two accounts to long letter/number combinations to prevent abuse by myself or others. Considering that if my one account would not have a fair shot of being a good editor I would not publicly reveal what the nick is (when I have created it) however if a few trusted Wikipedian's would come forth and swear secrecy I think that having them as oversight would be a good idea, that way the needs of the community knowing what I'm doing and the needs of me being able to make a fresh start under one account would be met. Jtkiefer 17:58, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I would agree to this, on the one additional proviso that, if you ever want to seek RFA on the new account, you must publically reveal the link in the process. This may result in it being impossible for you to ever get adminship back, but I'm afraid that that would have to be part of the consequences for you actions. For you to ever seek adminship again, it must be done in the public light. I have no problem with you returning to edit quietly, but I have a big problem with the possibility of you using that secrecy to try to get adminship once again. As for who could be trusted to know your new account, User:Kelly Martin, for one, appears to have been trusted by you for quite a while, and could possibly be one of the people, IMHO. - TexasAndroid 18:07, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Considering that Pegasus dissappeared with a very similar claim, I still think an RFCU would be in order. JoshuaZ 18:09, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Already filed. - TexasAndroid 18:10, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I've taken this to Requests for arbitration . --Tony Sidaway 18:15, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

And the request for checkuser was shot down as a fishing expedition, I have already created my single use account btw, and as per the community imposed terms (and I don't think anyone will disagree if I say that this is the probation version of a community ban decision} of the single account probation I have created my secondary account, and as of now am limiting this account to this AN/I thread, my user, talk, and subpages, and the pending RFAr against me. Jtkiefer 18:18, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I would not call it "Shot Down". Mackensen said there were no "extant accounts" other than the 3 we already know of. (And he deliberately did not reveal the new account, if it had been created before the check) I read this as check performed, nothing found beyond the known ones, and possibly the new one. As such I consider the RFCU issue to be closed. - TexasAndroid 18:24, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I think that's a very accurate analysis of it actually, so hopefully that can be put to rest. Jtkiefer 18:28, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

• Just a status update, I have scrambled the passwords for both Pegasus and Thygard so I no longer have access to either account, nor is there an email address set for either account. Jtkiefer 18:47, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

• Both accounts are blocked indefinitely, so that's a moot point actually. - Mailer Diablo 18:51, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, but I think it's an attempt at showing good faith on my part in me accepting using only one account if nothing else. Jtkiefer 19:10, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I think it would be quite irresponsible for us to Assume Good Faith on your part after your behavior. --Dante Alighieri | Talk 21:28, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I support arbitration to examine the entire history and all areas of potential abuse by the editor. For the record, I was seconds from blocking him for his utterly unacceptable attack of JDG , only to find out this was his (not his 1st) "I'm leaving" note. El_C 21:57, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

WP:FPC

For the record, Jtkiefer has been involved in some potential irregularities on the WP:FPC. See here for details. His/Her consistent attempts to act as if he/she has "authority" over others or some special status seem in the same vein as his/her attempts to achieve adminship. --Dante Alighieri | Talk 20:36, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Userpage deletion

I have requested several times that User:Thygard be deleted using {{db-owner}} perfectly in line with policy it has been confirmed that I am the owner and it is not a talk page. The sock notice which should be preserved is also present on the the talk page so that's not an issue eithyer. My requests while inline with policy have been deemed "vandalism" and my userpage ad been protected against even me editing it. Could an admin please fulfill my request? thanks. Jtkiefer 20:54, 11 August 2006 (UTC) CanadianCaesar has brought up the good point that there may be an administrative need to keep the page, I disagree since my userpage is just links and notes created as a listing of my interests and some of my comings and goings and unlike my talk page has no real administrative substance but more comment is probably needed in that regard. Jtkiefer 21:00, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

It is useful in that it serves as a link to the contributions of that "user". --Dante Alighieri | Talk 21:17, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Per policy and common practice, the userpage may be blanked, deleted and protected; the talk page may be blanked as a courtesy but will not be deleted, to retain the history of comments, warnings, etc. Even at a blanked/deleted user page, the contribs link will still work. Thatcher131 (talk) 21:22, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, you learn something new every day. ;) --Dante Alighieri | Talk 21:25, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Resolution

I'm bringing this back out of the archive to bring a final resolution. It seems there is consensus for a one account limitation for Jtkiefer and he has agreed to this. Because the issue was already more or less decided here, the arbitration request was declined. The only outstanding issue is for Jtkiefer to disclose to a number of people what new account he is editing under so they can prevent future abuse. While Jtkiefer wants that to be permanently secret, he has abused that in the past, so it seems reasonable to keep the identity secret unless he tries to do anything irregular (such as supporting the positions of his sockpuppets or anything else in WP:SOCK or tries to stand for adminship or another position of importance. There has been a checkuser performed, and it looks like another would need to be run unless Jtkiefer voluntarily discloses his new account to at least a few members of the arbcom and a couple bureaucrats. I'm willing to be one of the bureaucrats the account is disclosed to, but I'm also fine if people don't want me to be one of them for whatever reason. Once the account is disclosed the people that know should confirm they know and by private means confirm it is the same one. Thanks all. - Taxman 17:58, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I notice that you have informed Jtkiefer about this discussion on his talk page. I suggest that, if he should want to continue editing under a new account, he should contact a bureaucrat and disclose his username. It doesn't need to be generally published, as long as it is known within the bureaucratship. If he doesn't come forward within a month or so, I guess we assume he's not interested. If he is then detected at some time in the future (due to problematic behavior) then we'll deal with that when it arises. --Tony Sidaway 18:11, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I agreed to use one account and continue to agree to however I do not agree with mandatory disclosure should I request adminship and that's holding me back from full agreement from this. I understand the community has an interest in knowing if I ever go up for adminship again, however statements like dante's "oppose indefinitely" make me weary of disclosure since I feel that I will never be able to get a fair chance again for adminship due to people who will infinitely oppose even after I've earned trust again, also I am not sure if the community will accept anything short of the arbcom and even though I am trying to assume good faith I do not have faith that this won't be done then I'll end up being perm banned by some admin who can claim that this isn't a "community wide decisions". Jtkiefer 18:18, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, we reallize that you want to be able to reapply without having to disclose the situation, but that is unacceptable. Many RfA's pass with some opposes and some with a significant amount. If significant time passed where you were able to demonstrate an exemplary edit history and some patience, then I believe you could have a successful RfA. Heck, not that many Wikipedian's stick around forever. If you're patient enough, you can out-wait them and then your candidacy would be fully judged on the merits. - Taxman 18:35, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

We're at a bit of an impasse then since disclosure while not originally unacceptable to me has been made unacceptable by comments by people who will hold a permanent grudge against me and to answer the accusation that I might do something suspicious that would warrant another checkuser, as I said before this account is only being used to respond to these threads and to notes on my talk page and on my undisclosed I'm going back to my basics and trying to get some article editing done in peace. Jtkiefer 18:46, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, sorry, but then I think the only option is forced disclosure or community ban. Restriction to one account with disclosure if need be was just a compromise to allow you to edit. If you are unwilling to disclose the situation should you choose to try for a position of importance, it would be disclosed for you. You made your choices, now you don't want to have to live with the consequences. Sorry, but it doesn't work like that. - Taxman 19:17, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree. It sounds like you want to create a new identity, rack up some edits, promptly apply for adminship again, and a month later for bureaucratship. I can sympathize with you wanting a blank slate for editing, but your constant need for more power is very suspicious, and any future applications for adminship under a new identity should include your past history in this area. If there has been sufficient time and good behavior then I'm sure people can overlook your past deceptions, but it's not going to happen in 2 months like I think you expect. If you don't agree with the terms Taxman outlined, then I would propose that your other account be revealed and blocked, and you be restricted to editing as user User:Jtkiefer. 12.75.4.22 20:00, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Jt, the only reason it seems that people will hold permanent grudges is because they do. You burned a lot of bridges, did you really think that people would just ignore it? Your actions have consequences, and one of those is that you don't get a free pass to have a secret identity so you can be an admin. This is not a matter of us failing to Assume Good Faith, you've PROVEN (more than once) that this community cannot trust you and that you do not care about the opinions of the people who make up the community. If you want to be an admin, you go ahead and convince a sizable majority of people that they can trust you. Now, I doubt you'll be able to do that, but you are entitled to try... OPENLY. I would also like to make a special request that someone who's a regular on the WP:FPC page be made aware of Jt's secret identity, as there are concerns about his behavior on that page specifically. --Dante Alighieri | Talk 22:12, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

A possible other solution, since it appears that I risk being banned if I don't give into being railroaded, what if I edit only as Jtkiefer and do a 6 month voluntary ban on all spaces outside of article/user/and user talk with a one year ban from FPC and RFA and all subpages and related pages, which of course would be enforced not only by myself but the community at large I guess since I can assume that from now on all my contributions will be gone over with a fine tooth comb, this is not my first choice for a solution and the conversations above so that you do not have a legitimate excuse for a community ban as the community by and large is split over possibly banning me but I'm willing to abide by it if it will appease Taxman, Dante, and the community. Jtkiefer 00:35, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Threads on AN and AN/I directly about me would be exempt from this as would RFAr's and RFC's against me of course since even though I don't forsee ever having to use it again I should be able to take part in the dispute resolution procedure if needed. Jtkiefer 00:44, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Note that I have no special weight here, other than that I have been especially vocal in my disapproval of Jtkiefer's recent controversial behavior. As such, Jt has referenced me by name above, and accordingly, I am responding. I will grant that "permanent" was perhaps a bit harsh on my part with respect to a ban. I suppose it is possible for people to "reform" and change their attitude, so leaving the door open in the future is not wholly unreasonable. I would not oppose Jtkiefer's proposed solution (listed above), specifically with respect to the one year voluntary ban from FPC and RFA pages. I am uncertain whether the 6 month ban on "generic" non-article/user pages is necessary, and do not consider it required for a reasonable solution. As Jt's objectionable behavior appears to have been limited to FPC and RFA pages, I have no problem with the punishment being confined to those pages, especially if he continues editing on a known account (User:Jtkiefer, for example, with no socks). Based on a brief check of Jt's additions to the article namespace, it does appear that his "problem" is limited to administrative tasks, and that he would probably be capable of making useful contributions to the 'pedia if they were limited to the article/user space. I maintain my position that his behavior with respect to seeking authority is absolutely unacceptable, but acknowledge that he has contributed outside of that capacity and should probably be allowed to continue to do so. --Dante Alighieri | Talk 01:18, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

You're not being railroaded. You just don't want to deal with the consequences of your actions. But from my perspective you don't need to agree to any namespace bans as long as you agree to edit from one known account and to have that be enforced. You'd be free to e$it as you please and build back trust with the community. That seems like a reasonable solution to remove the problems but allow you to continue the good editing you do. - Taxman 01:32, 1u August 2006 (UTC)

Sounds fair to me, I'll only edit via this account without any namespace restrictions, though I think I'll for now just vote on FPC's and not close them, and stay as far away as possible from RFA for the most part. Jtkiefer 02:08, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok from me at least, but one account means one account — you have to disclose the other account(s) you've been editing under. Also, the no restrictions bit is subject to approval by others of course. - Taxman 02:58, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

And therein lies the rub, the unfortunate side-effect of the arbcom rejecting the case is that means that anyone can reject this "solution" and block me in an instant and this is not binding in any way, shape, or form, beyond those of us involved in this thread or indeed really between you, me, and maybe Dante if he feels so inclined. Jtkiefer 04:43, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Lets get this straight, you were found using sockpuppets abusively, abusing your previous admin powers and you are now presented with two options (a) A community ban (b) And alternative which still has a risk of a community ban (though it since I have no reason to believe Taxman is not dealing with this honestly in which case consensus for the ban would not be met). I'm sure many editors wouldn't be given an option (b), yet this isn't good enough for you, as above you seem to want to avoid dealing with the consequences of your actions. I can't speak for anyone else but reading through this thread, this seems to wearing a bit thin and perhaps we should consider withdrawing option (b). --pgk 06:48, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Community ban isn't really on the table actually, since the above conversations show that there is strong dissent against a community ban, probably due to something your forgetting, like my 2 years of editing productively, since I am still convinced that I cannot and will not ever get a fair chance under this username anymore I will be invoking my m:Right to vanish and you will all have to trust me when I say that I will follow the guidelines laid out here in terms of FPC, one account, and RFA though I will not rule out doing any of them in the eventual future. I'd appreciate being left to my edits but if you really feel the need to continue this then I am as you so aptly keep reminding me, not in a position to argue about it. Jtkiefer 07:52, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

It should also be noted that blocks are meant to be preventive and not punitive and treating my refusal to tell you what nick I am going to be using even though I have sworn to obey policy from now on as a blockable offense would be a big mistake and blatantly against blocking policy, as would assuming you have community consensus for a community block as there is not widespread support and I have apologized for and rectified all policy violations so there's no policy basis to block or ban me either. I hate to wikilawyer and usually avoid doing so but I just had to say that. I don't see how blocking me would be productive either and I suggest that we just drop this and get back to writing an encyclopedia which is what Misplaced Pages is really about. I will retain access to this account for a little while but won't use it other than to reply here or on my talk page if needed then I plan on scrambling the password and leaving it. Jtkiefer 08:02, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I am going to email taxman with the username of my new nick, after that I will leave it up to him how he uses that information and who he tells, I trust that he'll let a group of people he knows and trusts about it and will reveal who I am should I run for adminship. Other than that I will stick to staying away from closing anything or running for RFA for awhile and I hope that will be satisfactory to everyone. Unless anyone else has any other conditions for me to agree to as soon as I send the email off to Taxman I don't see why this wouldn't be resolved for now. Jtkiefer 08:24, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

This shounds mostly workable to me. Someone who knows Jt's new identity just needs to check from time to time to verify that he's keeping to his new promises. Also, obviously, if Jt does decide to run for Admin at some point, I believe that full disclosure would be appropriate AT THAT TIME. Other than that, I am content to let Jt vanish into the mists of anonymity providing he keeps his promises. --Dante Alighieri | Talk 15:28, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

If jtkiefer follows through, that suits me. --Tony Sidaway 23:01, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

So far nothing. - Taxman 01:26, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Resent using the email user function which should work. Jtkiefer 05:16, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

This compromise keeps changing. Yesterday Jtkiefer stated he'd stick with that account, and not use any sock puppets. I'd object to him using a sockpuppet. Watching his edits should be the responsibility of the whole community, not one hand-picked admin. I don't see any reason why he should have a hidden identity. -Will Beback 03:46, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

It will not just be one admin, he will tell people he trusts, including probably the arbcom and a couple bureaucrats and maybe even a few other admins he trusts, I honestly do not know nor should I probably know who knows but I trust taxman to pick good people, and if he wants to tell you who he has picked then you can ask him about it. Jtkiefer 05:16, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't get it. How is "don't run sockpuppets and you can edit in any namespace" a compromise? As far as I'm aware every Wikipedian is operating under exactly these constraints.

Meanwhile, Jtkiefer asserts that he has a new account; so why hasn't the Jtkiefer account hasn't been blocked indefinitely?

Snottygobble 04:17, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I think they are waiting for this thread to die, since blocking me would prevent me from responding here, once this thread is done by all means please block User:Jtkiefer indefinitely. Jtkiefer 05:16, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I'd much rather we just RfCU again and block any other socks. JoshuaZ 04:43, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I do not see how there would be any basis for that, I have dealt with all policy violations including allowing myself to be monitored and the connection to be revealed should I go up for adminship again, I have also abandoned Jtkiefer except for user, user talk, and the noticeboards the former would be available to any blocked or banned editor and the latter will stop as soon as this thread ends, I have also fully rectified my mistakes as best as possible and have apologized for violating policy, I do not see why there would be a benefit to blocking my account. Jtkiefer 05:16, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

You've seriously violated the community trust in the past, going so far as nominating sock puppets for Admin. I don't see any good reason why you can't continue contributing under you existing user name, or have a conventional name change. If I understand your words correctly, you are using a sock puppet currently. Is that true? -Will Beback 05:49, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

No, the only page I am editing with this account that I could not contribute to were this account blocked is this one so I hardly consider that sockpuppetry, this account is totally inactive except for replying on this page and replying to anything on my talk page. If you consider me being able to reply to any comments, questions, or accusations on this page sockpuppetry then I guess I would fall under that definition this is no different than a ban on an editor editing anything except for user talk and his/her arbcom case except in this case it's not an arbcom page it's this set of threads and subthreads in AN/I. Jtkiefer 07:10, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

User 67.114.45.132

I first encountered 67.114.45.132 on the femininity page, where he/she continually reinserted inappropriate material that was rejected by multiple editors. The user then went on throw around inappropriate insults on the talk page. When I checked the user page, I found that it is full of complaints from other editors. Trnj2000 18:19, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

He obviously doesn't care much about whether his edits are helpful so I will block him indef. Ashibaka tock 21:39, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Don't do that, it's an anon IP. Unless it's a proxy, limit the block. User:Zoe|(talk) 02:31, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't seem to rotate. If it does, the next user can just use {{unblock}}. Ashibaka tock 03:34, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Notice of community ban

Karmafist (talk · contribs · block log) was blocked on August 10 and has been added to the list of community bans at Misplaced Pages:List of banned users#Banned by the Misplaced Pages community. According to the policy for community bans notice of such blocks should be given on this page. --JWSchmidt 19:34, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

That sounds about right ... Cyde Weys 20:02, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunate, but seemingly inevitable. --CBD 21:19, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

IIRC a ban was mooted on this page a month or two ago, and I said at the time that it would be very unlikely that I would oppose a community ban on a user whose last articlespace edit was over 4 months ago (at time of writing it would have been 2 or 3). Nothing's changed to alter my opinion. --Sam Blanning 22:26, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

It's quite alright. This has allowed me to metamorphisize into many people on Misplaced Pages. After all, Karma is everywhere, and it applies to everybody. Those of you who know they have bad karma will reap the costs of their actions, and I will be around to give it a push.

Karmafist — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.114.213.251 (talk • contribs)

I agree that the notice represents proper procedure. *sigh* When I first registered my account, Karmafist was the first to welcome me to Misplaced Pages. This was a "conventional" welcome, prior to or unaffected by the controversy that arose concerning his messages, and I appreciated it. I'm sorry his attitude toward the project has now reached the point that this action is necessary. So very sad. Newyorkbrad 01:44, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I just blocked the above IP with Karmafist's above threat and then immediately got my user page vandalized. It is a reasonable assumption that this occured from Karmafist. Based on this, I have no choice but to endorse an indef ban. JoshuaZ 01:53, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Also given this and other similar claims, I would not object to a liberal use of RfCU to search for socks. JoshuaZ 01:57, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth, he implied one or more of his sockpuppets voted in Phaedriel's RfA, so that would be a good place to start. --W.marsh 02:02, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

When I saw that comment of his, I realized Karmafist was up to no good. Either he was attempting a malicious use of sockpuppets, or he was lying about it, possibly to see if he could get the checkusers to violate a bunch of users' privacy. Mangojuice 05:17, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

The vandalism of your user page with text from Stapleton International Airport strongly suggests that Karmafist is connected with (is?) The Airport Vandal. FCYTravis 02:21, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Wonder if he'll put that in his book... --W.marsh 02:23, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I think we can confirm it. The IP which vandalized User:JoshuaZ vandalized Phoenix Sky Harbor International Airport in the same timespan. Just look at the contribs. It's The Airport Vandal, alright. FCYTravis 02:26, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I further note that the Airport Vandal's history of subtle vandalism to airport/airline articles and destinations is consistent with karmafist's admission to committing subtle vandalism. FCYTravis 02:54, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Or it could just be the airport vandal impersonating Karmafist. Let's not rush to conclusions. This latest string of edits actually seems kind of unlike Karmafist. For instance, the bit on my talk page was poorly formatted. Karmafist used Misplaced Pages long enough to know wiki syntax; would he really have started off his first line with a bunch of spaces, thus throwing it into an ugly pre block? Now, of course, I think Karmafist should be indefinitely banned for a variety of other reasons, but I don't necessarily think that airport vandalism is one of them. --Cyde Weys 03:01, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree that it's not 100% certain, but the circumstantial evidence is too much to just ignore. FCYTravis 03:39, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Additional data point: Although I was previously aware of the Airport vandal, I'm pretty sure I have never reverted it, blocked it or in any other way attracted its attention. JoshuaZ 04:51, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

FYI, at least one other (newly promoted) admin, whom I don't believe had any issue with KarmaFist, was also hit with airport vandalism yesterday. Newyorkbrad 13:56, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Sad to see it come to this, but I think an indef ban is the right thing here. We can't let an admission of that sort of deliberate and malicious vandalism slide. -Hit bull, win steak 03:45, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I'm taking a bit of a risk here but I just hit the unblock button. I'm going to assume probation conditions are in effect - there is a very fine line here but I think this is the correct decision after the apology on IRC -- Tawker 07:01, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

For those of us "watching at home", can you clarify who apologized for what? -Will Beback 07:07, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Whoa, balls. Big ones. I think that while Karmafist has the potential to be a good editor again, if he keeps getting bird-dogged by the same people we'll very rapidly spiral into another indefinate block. The most recent block for incivility was stretching a very long bow, for instance. So, is it at all possible that we let someone unbloodied handle any potential problems with Karmafist from now on? - brenneman 07:12, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Faggotstein imposter of Fagstein

This guy is either an impostor or a sockpuppet. Fagstein seems to be in good faith and would have to be monumentally stupid to pick this as a username for a sockpuppet, so I'm gonna go with impostor. Karwynn (talk) 21:30, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Is there anything in their edits that makes you think it is meant to be an impostor and not a n innocenet user name? It might in any case be blockable for being confusing. JoshuaZ 21:55, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, currently its indefblocked by me...either its an impostor, or an inappropriate username. Syrthiss 21:57, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

"Faggotstein" is not an acceptable username. --Cyde Weys 22:19, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I've always been uncomfortable with "Fagstein", as well, though he seems to be a good user. User:Zoe|(talk) 02:35, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

FWIW - Faggotstein posted to their talk page with "F@CK YOU UNBLOCK ME NOW!" (or something similar, my eyes went a little misty when I read the F@CK part). Since that wasn't one of the options in the {{usernameblock}} I ignored him. Syrthiss 18:01, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

It's sad to see people calling each other "Fatck." When will they realize that being fatck is simply how some people are? Geogre 19:46, 15 August 2006 (UTC) (tongue in cheek)

User:BhaiSaab

I blocked this user for violating the 3RR on Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh. He has complained about my block on the grounds that he has not tecnically broken the rule. However, I feel that his edits were deliberatly intending to prolong an edit war, and calculated to disrupt the article whilst falling just short of the rules technical paramters. Have I done the correct thing? If so/not, could someone please assist at User talk:BhaiSaab Robdurbar 22:50, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I support this block. This guy has been blocked before for 3RR offences, and it seems that his intent is only to push POVs on articles. --Nearly Headless Nick 15:50, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

User:Webville

Sorry, I'm not certain if this is the correct procedure for this kind of thing, but here goes. User:Webville appears to be here solely to add links to isurvived.org, and add material to articles reflecting the site's viewpoint. This site, from what I can tell, represents a minority viewpoint, a claim made by User:130.39.232.221, who provided this link. Some of his contributions seem to confirm this, such as this edit to Hiram Bingham III, which claims he is a "bigot and racist of the first order" based on one letter he wrote, and goes on to call his son Hiram Bingham IV - a hero of the Holocaust, who, according to his Misplaced Pages article, helped 2500 Jews escape the Nazis - "a hater of Jews and a Holocaust denier." He has persistently made POV edits to Hiram Bingham IV (such as this), which made both the POV statement that he was "no hero," which is not the prevailing viewpoint, and the statement that he "was not a rescuer of Jews by and stretch," which contradicted material already in the article, without reference. On that article's talk page, he paid little attention to my explanation of the problem with his edits and made some borderline personal attacks. He also removed Bingham from List of people who assisted Jews during the Holocaust without explanation. He has also been warned by User:Dahn for making vanadalous deletions at History of the Jews in Romania, and appears to be a single-purpose account with the sole purpose of advancing the viewpoint of isurvived.org. I am not sure what the procedure is in such incidents, and I admit I am not personally familiar with this site - it could be mainstream and legitimate, but many indications point otherwise - but I think at the very least his contributions need to be closely watched and scrutinized. -Elmer Clark 23:33, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

That many links is blatant linkspam (search I see 36 links right now). User should be warned with spam1,...,spam4 templates, and blocked if spamming persists, if not for the POV crap. Links should be reverted. I'll see if I can do it tomorrow if they're still there, I have to go offline soon and am not up for it for now. Phr (talk) 05:53, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Close AfD please

Can one of the Admins please close this: Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/State_terrorism_by_United_States_of_America

It has been 5 days.Travb (talk) 23:43, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

As usual, there is currently a backlog on AfD, with some articles from August 5th waiting to be closed. Someone may close that AfD anyway, but normally it would be one of those that a lot of admins would quietly pass by on the other side of the street rather than close. --Sam Blanning 00:11, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

User continues to stalk and harrass me

Displaced Brit (talk · contribs · logs) apparently feels the need to make personal attacks and attempt to stalk me. It's getting to the point where I can no longer feel safe editing Misplaced Pages without this user harrassing and monitoring me.

--CFIF (talk to me) 00:21, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Firsfron and I have both left him warnings. Ashibaka tock 03:36, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Next time report such things on WP:PAIN --Nearly Headless Nick 15:52, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I am monitoring the situation carefully. I appreciate Ashibaka's backup.--Firsfron of Ronchester 02:59, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Repeat Copyright Offender?

Here is a copy of a recent discussion

• I found this and was concerned about a possible copyright infringement due to it's usage on Paris's page. Lauren

I agree, I think that is a copyright infringement - you can nominate it for deletion here (Images for Deletion). It doesn't seem that it links to any articles that are using it legitimately (such as fair use articles), so I don't think there could be too much of a problem there. —Keakealani •Poke Me•contribs• 18:36, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

• Thanks for your help with my question, I am still trying to resolve the issue. When I went to tag the image (Playboy_March_2005.jpg) uploader's talk page, I discovered that this was not the first problem with a violation. What is the policy on repeat violation offenders? Lauren

Hm, I actually don't know how to deal with repeat offenders, but I imagine a warning of some kind might be appropriate. Perhaps you could try leaving a note on the administrators' noticeboard so an admin can take a look and leave the appropriate warning? I'm not sure if there's much else regular users can do, but I'm not really familiar enough with that sort of thing to be able to help too much, unfortunately. —Keakealani •Poke Me•contribs• 23:46, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

What is the proper action in this case? Lauren 00:54, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

• You're pretty much taking the proper action now. If someone is serially uploading unfree images, then a short block with progressive durations is generally in line (by that I mean 24 hr, 48 hr, 72 hr, and then ArbCom in an RFaR action). It depends upon whether the user is misunderstanding copyright or simply too obsessed with Playboy bunnies to care. If the former, we educate. If the latter, the person is a liability. Geogre 02:36, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Concur. Attempt to educate, then escalating blocks. Thatcher131 (talk) 03:36, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Why is this image copyright infringement? The picture is a magazine cover, and the article using the cover specifically discusses the contents of that issue, as well as the cover in question. Doesn't that fit the fair use guideline? Not being snide, just honestly confused. -Hit bull, win steak 03:37, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I'm one of the biggest fair-use complainers around and this image seems perfectly reasonable to me (though missing detailed fair-use rationale). It's a magazine cover used in an article that specifically discusses this cover. The license is correct. It really needs a blatant source (though this is implied) and must have a detailed fair-use rationale for its use. But it's not a copyright violation. --Yamla 03:47, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

• Delve deeper into the licensing statement. It says: It is not acceptable to use images with this tag in the article of the person or persons depicted on the cover. This magazine cover image is not to illustrate the playboy magazine, but to illustrate Paris Hilton. So, once again. Let's get this fixed. Lauren 10:44, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

• Not acceptable..."unless used directly in connection with the publication of this image." As such, this one seems kosher, since the relevant section of the article in question discusses Hilton's article within the magazine and the magazine's decision to use an actress portraying Hilton rather than Hilton herself for the cover. The passage you're citing is meant to prohibit the use of magazine covers to illustrate the cover model for articles that don't discuss that model's appearance on/in the magazine, a completely different kind of usage, and one that's obviously not fair use. -Hit bull, win steak 12:45, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I could go either way on this. Try Misplaced Pages talk:Fair use? Thatcher131 (talk) 17:21, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

The usage of the cover is correct in this case; the cover is being discussed in an entire paragraph and is not just there for pure decoration. But I might suggest to scale the actual image down just a little bit. User:Zscout370 19:59, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

• What about the fact that this is not the first time this little trouble has arisen? There should be something definitive done to resolve this, whatever it is. It doesn't seem right to keep letting this happen. Lauren 21:16, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

The original uploader was Tony619 (talk · contribs). His last image upload was October 1, 2005, so I don't think it can be classified as an ongoing problem. In general, however, repeat violators should first be treated gently and advised of the policies, and if they persist, bring it here for investigation. Thatcher131 (talk) 21:35, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Shi'a View of Ali AfD

AtShi'a view of Ali's AfD, Uncle G has repeatedly accused me of attempting a botched merger and to do it properly. Despite my attempts to correct this false assumption(and I explained why I want to delete rather than merge twice on the page), he has now closed the AfD, saying there was "no consensus" However, the only other vote before he closed it was to delete!

I'd like an admin to take a look at this please, and, if I have a point, to reopen the AfD. I don't want to be one of those crazy editors who sees anyone who disagrees with them as vindictive Nazis out to destroy them, but equally I really feel Uncle G has got the wrong end of the stick here, and won't let go. Thanks. Dev920 02:09, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I think the point Uncle G was trying to make was that you cannot delete an article if you have merged any content from it. It must remain as a redirect to the article the content was merged to in order to preserve attribution, even if it was a POV fork (I have no idea). Pointing you to the policy was his way of saying this, in my opinion. -- Kjkolb 07:23, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Just to be pedantic, it is possible to take information from a deleted article and put it into another one. GFDL doesn't protect facts or sources. So if someone takes (for instance) a single paragraph, goes and looks up the source, and types it into a new article in their own words we can delete the source article. - brenneman 07:32, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Just to be correct ;-), nothing was said about putting things in your own words and I said "merge" not using information (as opposed to content) that is in one article in another article. In that case it would not be a merge, anyway. It would be using the article as an example or template to write another article or something else besides a merge. I do not know about legal requirements, but it does seem dishonest (claiming you (generic you) wrote it) and like stealing (denying recognition to the authors) not to give credit to the authors of the original content. They found all of the sources, identified the relevant information and presented it in an intelligible and possibly persuasive manner, depending on the type of content. All you are doing is reverse engineering it. It would be even worse if you are rewriting their words and crediting their sources instead of them. I had a tenured English professor who would insist on it being disclosed if even you just read/watched a work and did not use it as a reference. This would be a much greater usage of a work, so I think it should be noted. -- Kjkolb 10:31, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

• I support you both ethically and legally there, but that I would have said "theft." I was responding to the word "any" in "if you have merged any content from it" as much as anything. I shall retreat, bloddied but unbowed. ^_^
  brenneman 15:57, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Have taken on board above and posted accordingly at AfD. Dev920 12:49, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Dovetail.tv

A User:Dovetail recently registered and made some edits to Tyler MacNiven and Kintaro Walks Japan, amongst other articles, adding external links to dovetail.tv, a new HD video site. I removed them and put a {{spam}} tag at his talk page, and much to my suprise he was willing to talk about it. Now, under normal circumstances I'd be more than happy to explain the policy, especially after noticing that dovetail.tv gets only 272 Google hits. But gosh darn it, I happened to notice here that Dovetail.tv is based in San Francisco, where Tyler MacNiven is from, and that User:Dovetail signed his comment "Jason", which is the first name of the contact at that page. I would not be the least bit surprised if Tyler and Jason were the best of friends, and Tyler, who I have reason to believe is aware of his article here, maybe even asked Jason to post the links here. It seems like this sort of thing always happens to me, and yet again I end up coming here asking for someone with more experience and comfort with this sort of thing to help me make sure everything is done correctly. --Maxamegalon2000 03:17, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, Misplaced Pages is not a link directory. He should submit them to dmoz.org. Ashibaka tock 03:28, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Just talk about it politely with him, ask him to read WP:EL for extlink policy, and yes, dmoz.org is a good suggestion. Phr (talk) 06:11, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Shangwen Fang

Fanoffang (talk · contribs), whom I suspect to be Shangwen Fang himself (based on edit pattern and content -- compare with Shangwen Fang's own edits on Chinese Misplaced Pages), has been editing to introduce pro-Fang POV -- at least, in my view -- and I suspect Milx (talk · contribs) to be a sockpuppet intended to only attack Bobbybuilder (talk · contribs) on Talk:Shangwen Fang, and so i reverted Fanoffang's most recent edits to the article as well as removed Mlix's and Fangoffang's most recent comments on the talk page. However, I would like some extra pairs of eyes to examine the situation to see if I am already too embroiled into the situation to be neutral, and if so, to consider what is neutral and how the article might be able to be rendered neutral. Thanks. --Nlu (talk) 07:36, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Heads up

WP:ANI Needs some attention. Viridae 08:26, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Ugh I mean WP:AIV... Viridae 08:29, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Attacks on User:Mackensen

User:Mackensen Is A Lamer has vandalised User:Mackensen's talk page, and his name is inapropriate. This is obviously a account only for vandalism. Despite what it says on his user page, the user has not been blocked. Sergeant Snopake 09:20, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Blocked by Freakofnurture. --Doc 09:24, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Are we sure he didn't inherit Curpsbot? CanadianCaesar Et tu, Brute? 09:25, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Shhhh, you know that's a state secret. --Cyde Weys 13:35, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Quick work! Thanks, folks. Mackensen (talk) 11:14, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

By the way, using {{PUB}} would propose it for a username block automatically Will 12:06, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

User: Elliot.kw

Despite previous warnings User:Elliot.kw keeps moving speedy deletion tags from Thomas & Friends Big Live tour 2002. Please ban.

We do nopt ban people for this. Actually, it isn't quite speediable anyway, use WP:AFD if you want it deleted. And please stop putting warnign tags on articles and article talk pages. --Doc 09:37, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Why isn't it speedible? I looked at the history and the actions of other users in his article log and I also asked a long-term member here before I warned the person.

Sorry about the warning signs on the articles but I am new here and getting to know the ropes!

~~Pepsimanchester

User:207.188.29.244

Moved to Talk:Webspace

Up&Down - sockpuppet?

Up&Down (talk • contribs • page moves • block user • block log) seems to be on a suspicious editing spree as of late. He replaced the contents of User talk:RyanGerbil10 with the contents of User:RyanGerbil10 with an added sockpuppet template . He also removed User:JamesTeterenko from the list of Active users of WP:HOCKEY , on the ridicuolous claim that JT "does not contribute to Hockey pages in an ethical manner" (which, even if it were true, is not a reason to take someone off WP:HOCKEY's user list).

Additionally, this user also added this note on the WP:HOCKEY article claiming that User:JohnnyCanuck was wrongly blocked as a sock puppet. JohnnyCanuck's block log reveals JamesTeterenko had previously blocked him, and reverting RyanGerbil10's talk page revealed that JohnnyCanuck had requested RyanGerbil10 to unprotect his userpage, a request RyanGerbil denied. Additionally, RyanGerbil blocked the IP from which Johnny Canuck posted the request after JC vandalized the user page in response to the rejection. Given this evidence, I presume that Up&Down is nothing more than a sockpuppet of JohnnyCanuck and/or his suspected puppetmaster, VaughanWatch. –NeoChaosX (talk | contribs) 09:48, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Sussex Downs College

Is it possible that we can please have the sussex downs college page protected, or at the least semi protected as the ammount of criticism that has been posted by vindictive staff members is not representative of the positive reputation of the college. As a former student and now staff member I and the majority of my collegues feel that the vandalism is damaging both to the reputation of the college and the mentality of present students. The vandalism has been posted on several occasions by whom we believe to be one staff member under different alias's so this will prove to be an ongoing problem if not solved.

This is what we would like the page to read “Sussex Downs College is a large college in the South East of England. It has campuses in Eastbourne, Lewes and Newhaven. It was formed from the merger of three smaller colleges in the region - Lewes Sixth Form College, Eastbourne Vocational College and Park Sixth Form College. Although there was primarily some speculation over a successful merger Sussex Downs College has since proved itself of exceptional standard, achieving CoVE status (Certificate of Vocational Excellence) an award that very few other colleges have managed to attain. Offering 16-19, Adult, and International or Higher Education courses the range attracts people from all walks of life. Although functioning as one college the ethos of the individual campuses remains the same giving the students an individual choice as to how they learn, yet the security of a vastly equipped support network. Set in the heart of the South Downs, Sussex Downs College provides an inspiring and relaxed environment in which to study”

If you could protect this page we would very much appreciate it, and if there are any other concerns over the nature of our enquirey please dont hesitate to email me at sara.humphrey@sussexdowns.ac.uk

Hello, Sara. Protection of an article is a last resort and articles are protected for vandalism rather than criticism, although inserting unsourced criticism over and over could be vandalism. The only edits I found that had anything negative to say were this and this. The article was started in December 2005 and has only had two edits that inserted criticism that was not to the point where it would be called vandalism, so the article does not meet the standards we have for protection. I suggest removing negative comments if they are unsourced. Of course, if negative information is accurate, sourced and stated in a neutral manner, it should stay. It is expected that there will be some negative information about any institution. -- Kjkolb 10:55, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

more socks of user:EnthusiastFRANCE

See Petit Tonnerre (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and Running Potatoe (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (already blocked) -Aknorals 10:58, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Mainly this edit -Aknorals 11:00, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

To say nothing of Mackensen Is A Lamer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)! It's good to know you're wanted, at any rate...Mackensen (talk) 11:06, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

haha, yeah, to think I never went off on anybody's radar before this dude showed up! -Aknorals 11:17, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Tagged and bagged. Mackensen (talk) 11:15, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

A Man In Black being uncivil

Hello, A Man In Black (talk · contribs) is being uncivil towards me. Modifying my comments after i updated my opinion and added my "vote" on a page and tidied it.

He first reverted my edits twice, saying i was being sneaky (maybe i would be if tehre ahd been conversation branching off but there was not, if so i would of left the original comment there as well)

He then proceeded to remove warnings from his talk page (3RR for his 3RR vio, WR0/1, 3RR and attack) calling my 3RR warning trolling he then proceeded to wipe more warnings and

He then started changing the subject firstly "MatthewFenton can't be bothered to link what he's talking about or open a new header" which is blatently uncivil.

I can only assume his hostility towards me is because i reported him for a 3RR vio this morning, but as ana dmin he should WP:AGF and act civil towards me. Matthew Fenton (Talk | Contribs) 12:26, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Why does every dispute you are involved in have to esculate like this? This is what people are complaining about in your RfC. The JPS 12:30, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I wish they did not have to, and i my self have honestly tried to stay out of disputes but said users are not helping by messing up pages when the variable is being used in hundreds of pages.

I asked them all to leave it till dispute was over however they all ignore. I can only think there nitpicking, the fact remains that: its useful, does no harm and serves a purpose. Also no one makes users use it. Matthew Fenton (Talk | Contribs) 12:34, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate your intentions, and I fully understand your logic in wanting to make the changes. But the problem is that you are failing to acknowledge the logic of those opposing you. You are automatically assuming that those who disagree with you are vandalising, or disrupting Misplaced Pages. This is not good, particularly when they have valid concerns. You are the one who changed the template without discussion, so it's unfair to play that card! You need to be at least acknowledging the validity of those opposing you are saying, and not automatically dismissing them. The JPS 12:43, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I do ackknowledge them, but it needs to be there until at least the discussion is over as it is being used in litteraly HUNDREDS of articles. I've even volunteerd to remove all instances my self after the discussion is over if its decided they should be gone. Also about teh discussion part.. i was unaware i had to ask permission, but if you notice Ed went and made a real major change 5 minutes later (bolding text, recoding and aligning to left -- which also happend to break the ifbx) he did not ackknowledge this as major at all and it took him time to fix it, the fact that he thinks he does not him self have to ask is bias. Matthew Fenton (Talk | Contribs) 12:47, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

There is a particular element of this I find quite bizzare. Reading the talkpage for the template, AMIB tells you in quite explicit terms that he does not support your changes and wishes you to stop, other editors share his point of view. You tell those editors that you take this as SUPPORT for your changes! I will assume good faith and assume you have some form of learning difficulty that affects your reading comprehension - the only other explanations involve bad faith. --Charlesknight 12:53, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

No actually there was an oppose section which ed wiped (would it not of been better to put his comments in there - in the first place). Matthew Fenton (Talk | Contribs) 12:58, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Please point me to the edit where AMIB says "I support your change" or words to that effect - if he said it, it must be in the edit history. So all I require in response is a link. --Charlesknight 13:03, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

He never said he supported or opposed, nor did i say i said he supported or i say that AMIB supported it on the talk. Matthew Fenton (Talk | Contribs) 13:05, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok I'm moving from finding your behaviour "bizarre" to downright disturbing. AMIB Quite clearly says he opposes your changes, you QUITE CLEARLY state that you take this as support ". This now goes beyond wiki-lawyering (which you have been accused of in the past), you seem intend on creating a false impression of a situation when anyone reading the talk page for the template can see what you actually said. I am baffled why you try such a gambit. I am going to be blunt, I no longer assume good faith and I consider you a danger to Misplaced Pages. --Charlesknight 13:27, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

What? Where have i said i took his comments as support? If you read the articleyou may notice i didnt even count him AT ALL! Matthew Fenton (Talk | Contribs) 13:32, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

What on earth is this then?

Voting is useless and divisive, and your vote count seems to discount me, Combination, and ed g2s. Get support for the colors, then add them to the template. Revert with vandalism-reversion tools and I will block you, and recommend that your AWB/VP/whatever access be stripped. - A Man In Black (conspire | past ops) 07:45, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

YOU ARE ALL IN THE SUPPORT SECTION*, Ed has made comments (note he also removed the oppose sect.) and there seems to be support, and for making threats saying i cannot revert i intend to report that. Matthew Fenton (Talk | Contribs) 07:48, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

How is "Ugh. Please don't implement series-by-series coloring" ambiguous? - A Man In Black (conspire | past ops) 07:59, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

--Charlesknight 13:45, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I made them aware they where in the support section (patetntly obvious) also, thank you for adding more proof of his uncivility (threats etc) Matthew Fenton (Talk | Contribs) 13:50, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

How is "please don't" either uncivil or threatening? The "ambiguous" part is because you said there were 4 support / 0 oppose when it was clear there wasn't universal support for the idea. --Interiot 13:57, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Notice the threats? Thats uncivil. He is giving orders saying i cant revert, now i'm not conscripted so i dont have to obey his orders. Matthew Fenton (Talk | Contribs) 14:16, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

This is wikilawyering of the worst sort - how would you interperate AMIB comments to be SUPPORT no matter what heading they were under? I give up at this point and will leave this to the rest of you. --Charlesknight 13:54, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

If you cant be botherd to read the talk dont bother, i made them AWARE i did not INTERPRET! AWARE i never even counted them as suppoters I made them AWARE! Matthew Fenton (Talk | Contribs) 13:57, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Charles, I'm pretty sure that Matthew wasn't saying that he thought MIB and co. supported his idea -- he seems to have been complaining that someone else deleted his "Oppose" heading and that the debate was getting peanut butter in his chocolate, or putting opposition in his support section, or something. TheronJ 14:49, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

The easiest way to avoid this whole mess would have been to discuss before making a major change to a widely used template. Since that didn't happen, the next best option would have been to discuss the matter rationally as soon as someone opposed the change. Arguing that someone's obviously opposing opinion was actually in support because of some arbitrary section break is absurd. I've seen matters involving Matthew pop up around the Wiki over the past few weeks and they all seem to be minor issues becoming major ones. In my opinion, it usually stems from Matthew's insistence that he is right and others are not only wrong, but their actions will harm Misplaced Pages. Yeah, this is all a bit blunt, but this behavior needs to cease. Aren't I Obscure? 13:09, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I still fail to see how you can call this major. a) its optional b) no one forces you to use it c) it alters the design in no way unless !called!.

Furthermore how is adding {{Colour|#<Default>}} compared to Eddys change here, which no one seemed to care about? If you ahve to ask permision to edit pages why was it not protected? Matthew Fenton (Talk | Contribs) 13:16, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

When this matter spilled onto ANI, the focus shifted from the template itself to how you reacted to opposition. With the huge number of editors we have, disagreements over changes (major or minor) are inevitable. It's essential that editors are able to handle opposition in a rational and calm manner. This includes taking to steps to prevent conflicts from escalating. Sometimes it even means backing down and letting a matter drop. However, instead of picking your battles wisely, you seem to want to fight every battle to the bitter end. Just in this section, you've managed to argue with every editor who's posted an opinion. Is it really the case that you're right and everyone else is wrong? My advice is back away from the template for a while and edit your favorite articles. Also, it wouldn't hurt to reread your RfC with the understanding that the majority of these editors are raising valid points. Aren't I Obscure? 14:12, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

A very reasonable way of implementing the colour coding was proposed by Ed near the start of the discussion. It is a /much/ better solution than manually handcranking the colours and not considering accessibility at all. When things are specified via a style sheet users have the freedom to turn off "daft colouring" and actually see the content (consider colour blindness). It's a shame Matthew did not seriously take this on board. His later behaivour and attempt to get mob rule to decide the issue (as in it's far to early to vote - discuss first) is bizarre.

Personally I don't think we should ever mess with article text colours. Thanks/wangi 14:04, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Nobodys been messing with text colours.. so what are you talking about? :\ Matthew Fenton (Talk | Contribs) 14:10, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Eh, you are... See this edit - "Colour" for the background colour, and "TColour" for the text colour in the headings. Thanks/wangi 14:19, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

It changes !NOTHING! unless called!! Does nobody understand? The bland gray is !STILL THERE! and only changed if variables are CALLED Matthew Fenton (Talk | Contribs) 14:22, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Mathew, I think you're still failing to see the concerns of other editors. You added the "Colour" and "TColour" params to the template. Why did you add them if not to use them? Thanks/wangi 14:39, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not saying dont use them, i'm saying the objectionists dont need to use them . I've jus had an idea tho.. would it be possible to have some css so those who dont wish to see colours see teh default and all they have to do is paste css to m-b.js? Matthew Fenton (Talk | Contribs) 14:41, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Don't think about us editors, think about the readers. Read Ed's suggestion for the answer to your "idea" - as in you use CSS classes, not explicit colours. Thanks/wangi 14:45, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Edwards suggestion is limited, however a template has been created for colours however it is not worth implementing when it will be reverted. Thus a waste of time. Matthew Fenton (Talk | Contribs) 14:48, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Bobblewik (talk · contribs) date delinking (again)

I have temporarily blocked Bobblewik because he has returned to rapid en-masse date delinking of articles, just 8 minutes after his last one month block expired. He is also doing other less controversial MoS style edits, but the date delinking ones are accompanied by the less than descriptive edit summary of "links". I bring this here for review. Bobblewik has been repeatedly blocked for continual delinking of dates. Despite extensive past discussions at Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers), he is well aware that there is no widespread consensus for these edits. From past discussion here, on his talk page and his block history, he is well aware that these edits are extremely controversial and disruptive. I think this is an editor who is clearly not prepared to stop these disruptive edits and is on the brink of expending the patience of the community completely. I think it is time to consider a community imposed ban. Thoughts everyone, thanks. --Cactus.man ✍ 13:19, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I'd support either an indef block or if consensus fails that, a new, longer block than last time, as there's no evidence of any desire to work within the concerns that others have raised. ++Lar: t/c 14:11, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

This seems rather minor a problem for an indefinite community ban. Has anyone thought of bringing an ArbComm case? Sam Korn 14:19, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Rebecca thought about it but blocking has proved more popular . Thincat 15:57, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Certainly a lot of people object to Bobblewik's year delinking, and a lot of other people support it. The MOS says "There is less agreement about links to years. Some editors believe that links to years are generally useful to establish context for the article. Others believe that links to years are rarely useful to the reader and reduce the readability of the text". At one stage there was a suggestion that one should not edit articles specifically to remove date links. It looks to be that today Bobblewik has been finding articles with units to tidy up and then delinking years when he saw them too. This obviously has not placated the opponents! Personally I support delinking but I wish BW wouldn't do it because it gets some people so upset. Can't his tremendous number of valuable edits allow room for a bit of leeway? Thincat 14:38, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Sure. If he stops doing what he's doing nobody will bother him. --jpgordon 15:23, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Could the discussion of this be moved to User talk:Bobblewik so he can respond ? He feels that the block was unjustified given that he was operating within the restrictions imposed on him. Megapixie 15:37, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I have taken the liberty of unblocking him provisionally on that he will not touch dates and he'll come here to discuss this. This is not an unblock I have a stake in -- if in the judgement of anyone this is not kosher or he does something to abuse that trust, I won't be offended if you undo my action. Please see here for my reasoning. --Improv 16:22, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

No problem with the unblock - see below, just my slow typing speed (why was there no edit conflict ???) --Cactus.man ✍ 16:50, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

This discussion needs to be held here for maximum community exposure. This is a recurring pattern of editing from Bobblewik. You make reference to "restrictions imposed on him", but from what I see, that was some informal comment by some editors regarding the speed of his edits (and whether or not he is running an unauthorised bot), not some officially community sanctioned imposition. Those comments also made reference to the "necessity of leaving more descriptive edit summaries or talk page messages on your delinkings (with reasonings on why you removed a particular link) and throttl the number of such edits down to something below 6 in a minute". Editing speed has certainly been reduced, but the use of descriptive edit summaries and talk page summaries have clearly not been improved.

The problem is that even at his newly reduced editing speed there is clearly no scope for full consideration of the relevance of any date links to the context of the article he edits; THAT is where I believe the majority of opposition to these edits has stemmed from. I agree that many articles are overly date linked, but context is everything and many date links can be considered relevant. Bobblewik's latest bout of editing just removed all linked dates when encountered, at a speed that clearly would not allow sufficient examination of the context in which each date was linked. There is wide disagreement on this issue between editors and no clear consensus that these edits are acceptable. Bobblewik has been asked by numerous people, including Jimbo apparently, to stop this. After expiry of each and every block what happens? Boblewik returns and starts delinking dates, and I repeat en-masse because that's what is happening. Articles edited today with a non preference linked date were changed at at around 2 per minute initially. All linked dates were changed - blam, onto the next one - that is en-masse date delinking without consideration of the context in relation to the article.

I agree with Sam that a community ban is probably too hasty, but this recurring pattern is definitely disruptive - perhaps ArbCom is the correct way forward. This needs to be resolved one way or another. In response to Megapixie, I am prepared to unblock Bobblewik to allow him to respond here, provided he gives an undertaking not to delink dates while this discussion is ongoing. --Cactus.man ✍ 16:45, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I think Bobblewik could be a good contributor, and the delinking of dates is justified in some circumstances. I think we need more input from the community on what to do with this user; I'd mentor him if anyone approves of this idea. --TheM62Manchester 17:23, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

RyanGerbil10 talk page

Recently, socks of VaughanWatch have repeatedly blanked my talk page and/or replaced it sock puppet warnings, due to the fact that I have block two VaughanWatch IP addresses and a user account, User:Up&Down, who all seem to be VaughanWatch. I don't want to protect my talk page, (my userpage is already protected), but I'm pretty sure my talk page is going to suffer some fairly severe vandalism today, and I will be unable to fix it from 14:00 UTC August 15 until 00:00 UTC August 16 because I will be at work. Could a few administrators keep it relatively clean for me? I think once Vaughan discovered I blocked his latest account, he'll hit me pretty hard. Thanks, RyanGerbil10(The people rejoice!) 13:47, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

What about s-protect? Matthew Fenton (Talk | Contribs) 13:48, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I do a lot of RC patrol, sometimes anons come and point out my mistakes (I do make them, from time to time). Anyway, I'm home now. Thank you to everyone who helped keep my page clean. RyanGerbil10(The people rejoice!) 23:38, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

User:Aknorals blasphemous summary edits

Hello, I noticed the User:Aknorals did unacceptable blasphemous summary edits here, in extenso "OMFG, the bible says my actions are ill-ee-gal! ONOS!!!". i'd like to remember "OMFG" is the acronym for "Oh My Fucking God", and that blasphemous insults are not tolerated on Misplaced Pages as well as flaming. This vandal deserves AT LEAST a warning. Irrelevant Edit 14:13, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

• Who was being insulted? --jpgordon 14:53, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
• Thanks for your note. You've been blocked indefinitely as a sockpuppet along with your proxies. Cheers, Mackensen (talk) 14:53, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I think a quick look will reveal that this edit by User:Aknorals was in response to a ridiculous allegation by another user, who invoked the Bible in his support. Aknorals could possibly have been more restrained, but under the circumstances it was mild; this is certainly not worth taking any action over. DJ Clayworth 14:54, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

That and "blashemy" isn't a prohibited action on Misplaced Pages.

This is just our good friend EnthusiastFRANCE (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) making his daily appearance. Disregard. Mackensen (talk) 15:15, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm seeing double...

I just noticed that we've got both a Mark Taylor (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and a Mr mark taylor (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) editing on Misplaced Pages. Ordinarily, one would be blocked as an impostor of the other, but both appear to be relatively long-term good-faith contributors. Should something be done about this, and if so, what? -Hit bull, win steak 14:47, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Don't see why anything should be done. Nothing to see here, move along. Morwen - Talk 15:02, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

(edit conf) We also have a Globaltraveller and a Worldtraveller, and those aren't even their real names. So I'd say no, leave as is. Mark Taylor is probably a reasonably common name (no offense). - Samsara (talk • contribs) 15:04, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Unlikely there socks, both naems are common ("mark", "taylor") and both seem to be good standing users. Likely Mark Taylor was taken so he subst. with Mr, which to me is acceptable as "Mark Taylor" is likely also his name. I dont think anything should be done :)! Matthew Fenton (Talk | Contribs) 15:05, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

OK, thanks for the feedback. The only idea I could come up with was a dab header on both userpages, and that's just dumb, y'know? -Hit bull, win steak 15:32, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

If anyone needs disambiguation on their userpages, it's Morwen and I ... Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 06:01, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Revert war at Naruto Uzumaki

There's a revert war going on at Naruto Uzumaki between Pentasyllabic, TTN, and Kingdom hearts III. They're reverting each other over and over, about every 5 to 10 minutes, and have been for the last few hours. Baseball,Baby! 15:23, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

24 hour blocks for each. I'm looking to see if Narutomaniac (talk · contribs) should also get one. Kirill Lokshin 15:33, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Verifiability issues in a Star Trek article

Discussion moved to Talk:Starfleet ranks and insignia --Doc 16:49, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

IP indefblock

I just noticed that 216.190.11.36 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) picked up an indefblock as a sockpuppet.

Can someone who knows the ways of IPs better than I do take a look and make sure an indefblock is in order? The only time I'd heard of it before is for open proxies and all-vandal accounts with mass vandalism and no positive edits. -Hit bull, win steak 17:14, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

It looks like a dial-up ISP. Indef probably not a good idea. Thatcher131 (talk) 17:19, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

In which case, could someone with The Button shorten the block? -Hit bull, win steak 18:55, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I've shortened it to a week. If it recurs as a vandal after that, then it's probably not a rolling IP and can be blocked for much longer (say 6 mo.). Geogre 19:42, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

User:Royalistlane - claims to be User:EddieSegoura sockpuppet

Did anyone see the page moves of Royalistlane (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) today - he apparently claimed to be a sockpuppet of User:EddieSegoura. I think we'd better watch the move log more closely.

Anyhow, he's blocked; thanks to Misza13 for blocking him! --TheM62Manchester 17:19, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Eh...?

• Eh?? Anyone know what's causing this?--152.163.100.65 17:53, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

• It's you. No...just kidding. It was me. (Actually, someone probably does know, but server load fluctuates with server health. A certain amount of this is to be expected, and donations are always gratefully accepted. It has been occurring very little recently, and some of us old timers were probably getting nostalgic.) Geogre 19:38, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

User:Oiboy77 and blatant personal vandalism

Personally, I am rather offended by http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Israel&diff=next&oldid=69831964 and I believe looking at his contributions (rogue admins, his first edits, and other such loverly stuff) he is deserving of sanction. Although I believe I am within my rights to levy it, as the target of his nonsense, I feel that I must first take special pains to ensure that any actions are done according to Wiki guidelines and that there is no opening for claims of admin abuse, although I am not abdicating the right to apply the appropriate wikipedia procedure. Thank you. -- Avi 18:01, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I must response to this claim, as I believe Avi has a personal vendetta against me. In the past he has blocked me for archiving my talk page, claiming I deleted it. He later unblocked me at the request of another admin. Posting an apology on my talk page. I urge you to look at the topic of the edits posted my him and the others here who will facilitate this pile on. It will be the usual suspects. Because two people have different opinions on topics one is NOT a vandal. See ].--Oiboy77 18:36, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

It's called an {{unsigned}} template. What is so incredulous is that IP is registered to London, England, and it is a well known fact that I am in the US. Oiboy, you are either completely clueless about wikipedia templates or, and I am afraid this is more likely, based on your knowledge of vandalism templates and RfAr's, guilty of attempting to pass someone else's comments off as mine. Which is contemptible. -- Avi 23:20, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Please also see: ]--Oiboy77 18:40, 15 August 2006 (UTC) And this ]--Oiboy77 18:45, 15 August 2006 (UTC) And this ]--Oiboy77 18:49, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

And most importantly ]

I'm sure the usual suspects will respont with slanderous statements about me. (Start the pile-on)--Oiboy77 18:54, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Also see my talk page. Also see this on his own talk page. --Daniel575 19:02, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Users here are upset that Oiboy has added items to Human rights in Israel. To the Pro-Israel faction this makes him an anti-Semite that 'besmirches the country', which has been the basis of many false and defamatory accusations against him. I think it is highly inappropriate to drag a personal disagreement like this onto the admin board. Sarastro777 20:50, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia, and we are here to write encyclopedic articles from a neutral poinit of view, so just your comment of 'Pro-Israel faction' is ridiculous. Cut the crap. Do not put words in my/others mouth. I have not even once insinuated anything like that. This does not involve any 'false or defamatory accusation'. Oiboy77 committed an intentional and in my eyes quite serious act of vandalism. Pure, plain vandalism. There is no justification. --Daniel575 21:04, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

As an outsider looking at this I also agree with this interpretation. I don't see anything overly like vandalism being done by Oiboy77. Also I would question users he's in obvious conflict with placing, "warnings" on his talk page. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 20:52, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

It's quite simple. Did you click that link I brought? That is not my IP, never was my IP, and anyone who knows my editing style knows I could never have posted that, which was why two editors, with whom I do not always agree, pointed that out in a matter of minutes. To try and frame someone for another's edits is contemptible. -- Avi 20:54, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

JohnnyBGood, did you actually look at what happened? Looks to me like you didn't. --Daniel575 21:00, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually I did. I just didn't realize that IP didn't belong to whom it had been tagged with. A warning is definitely in order here. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 22:57, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

So, it looks like Oiboy77 committed a forgery on an article's talk page by making it look as if a warning or comment came from an admin it did not come from. Is that the truth of it? Right now, it's looking like mischief rather than an honest mistake. That certainly would merit a warning, but I think we need some kind of explanation here. I suggest that Oiboy77 explain himself or an adverse inference is going to be drawn. Metamagician3000 23:26, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Correct. Now if you check his talk page, you will see that this is not the first time he has broken the rules. Also his total denial of anything having happened is very weird. See User talk:Daniel575#Tagging_an_edit_Vandalism my talk page. The guy is as innocent as a bank robber in plain daylight with 1000 witnesses. Yet he accuses me, who discovered it first (as did User:okedem) of 'playing a silly little game' and denies that it is vandalism. Well, tell you what, it is whim who is playing a silly little game and committed vandalism here. A very childish form, which makes it even worse than gross vandalism, in my eyes. This was done merely to annoy, to harass another user. There is no explanation possible, the only thing fitting is an apology by Oiboy77 and a promise to never, ever, do this again. --Daniel575 01:54, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to give him a 1 week block. This is beyond a joke. I have been giving people blocks for fraudulently switching "votes" on RfA, AfD and also faking signatures. Blnguyen | rant-line 01:59, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

"Blocks are preventive rather than punitive measures used to prevent damage to Misplaced Pages...normally lasts 24 hours...and in most instances a block can be lifted if the editor agrees to stop the damaging behavior." Way to overreact. Obviously from this board, it seems preventing damage to Misplaced Pages is the last thing on the agenda. 68.6.254.16 04:38, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

What the heck

Could an admin check Squid Raw (talk · contribs)'s contribs? Strange stuff happening.. I don't have the patience right now. Thanks. --Fang Aili 19:28, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Say hi to another sockpuppet of user:EnthusiastFRANCE. Blocked. pschemp | talk 19:34, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Proxy blocked. Mackensen (talk) 22:30, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Gotta love teamwork. GJ guys. :D ~Kylu (u|t) 02:24, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Personal attacks at Talk:Memphis, Tennessee

I posted this at WP:PAIN, but was advised to bring it here because there are multiple, non-static IPs involved, though they are all being used by one editor.

User:Reneec has been editing as 66.239.212.34 (talk · contribs), 66.239.212.23 (talk · contribs), 66.239.212.68 (talk · contribs) et al (confirmed by this checkuser request back in February, see complete list of recently used IPs below) on the Memphis, Tennessee article and talk page. The editor has made numerous personal attacks on User:Vary and me (and perhaps User:Dozenist as well) on the talk page, such as calling me childish, saying that we've engaged in lackey, sycophantic crawling, calling Vary ignorant, a Wiki Cop on a cycle of deletion, and clueless, calling me ignorant, unfriendly, and an embarassing, obnoxious despot, and so forth (there are more attacks, but I think that's enough to fairly assess the situation).

While the IPs are not static, making communication with the user directly nearly impossible, numerous attempts to get the user to stop making the attacks have been made on the Memphis talk page itself. I realize that the requisite NPA warnings do not currently appear on Reneec's talk page. Reneec has, however, been warned on his/her talk page in the past, see this and this (the warnings were removed by Reneec immediately after the warnings were given. The IPs have been warned at Talk:Memphis, Tennessee and on their talk pages here and here. Additionally, the user has violated 3RR in the article itself. · j·e·r·s·y·k·o talk · 01:35, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

As User:66.239.212.73, Reneec just suggested that Vary see a "behavior modification specialist." Perhaps I need to list each personal attack here? Talk:Memphis, Tennessee#In the Matter of Memphis Musician David Saks is an excellent place to start for anyone who wishes to assess this situation. I would really appreciate some attention in this matter. Thanks! · j·e·r·s·y·k·o talk · 03:35, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

In addition to the attacks at Talk:Memphis, the user has attacked Vary and me on our user talk pages. · j·e·r·s·y·k·o talk · 13:51, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

The user has expanded his/her attacks/incivility to User:Scribner now, as well.· j·e·r·s·y·k·o talk · 14:56, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

The following is a list of IPs that have been used in the last three days by Reneec on the Memphis article and talk page:

1. 66.239.212.90 (talk · contribs)
2. 66.239.212.55 (talk · contribs)
3. 66.239.212.37 (talk · contribs)
4. 66.239.212.101 (talk · contribs)
5. 66.239.212.68 (talk · contribs)
6. 66.239.212.64 (talk · contribs)
7. 66.239.212.46 (talk · contribs)
8. 66.239.212.23 (talk · contribs)
9. 66.239.212.34 (talk · contribs)
10. 66.239.212.85 (talk · contribs)
11. 66.239.212.73 (talk · contribs)
12. 66.239.212.5 (talk · contribs)
13. 66.239.212.63 (talk · contribs)
14. 66.239.212.120 (talk · contribs)
15. 66.239.212.22 (talk · contribs)
16. 66.239.212.41 (talk · contribs)

I hope this makes assessment of the situation easier; I apologize for the length and complexity of my earlier post. · j·e·r·s·y·k·o talk · 13:48, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm extremely disappointed that this is being allowed to continue unchecked. · j·e·r·s·y·k·o talk · 19:00, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I moved this request to the bottom as it seems things in the middle of the page get forgotten. There is definitely some POV pushing and incivility coming from these IP addresses. A rangeblock on 66.239.212.0/24 for 24 hours should act as a wake-up. Unfortunately I can't throw it myself. Thatcher131 (talk) 19:45, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for taking time to look at this. Again, I apologize for the complexity of my posts here so far. · j·e·r·s·y·k·o talk · 20:49, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Thatcher131's suggestion for a rangeblock is probably needed at this point. This attack on Vary, which was just posted a few minutes ago, is particularly nasty. Can someone please explain why my requests have been largely ignored thus far? I understand this type of thing takes a while, but these attacks are continuous and obvious, it wouldn't take a long time to assess. I was told to bring this here instead of WP:PAIN because of the range of IPs involved, but I'm wondering if that was good advice, as it does not seem to be getting much attention at all here. · j·e·r·s·y·k·o talk · 02:42, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Ditto with this attack (made seconds ago) on Scribner. · j·e·r·s·y·k·o talk · 02:47, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

That is completely unacceptable. Being poncy and condecending is one thing, but calling another editor who's scarcely even been involved in the discussion "a liar or dumbass or both?" I haven't blocked because I'm been involved in the dispute, but this person clearly needs a break. -- Vary | Talk 03:06, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

yeeeeesh

Huge Backlog at Category:Candidates for speedy deletion--64.12.116.65 20:40, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Mexico123

Mexico123 has just uploaded his sixth image without licence info, having been warned not to do so. Could someone have a pursuasive word with him, asking him to stop. Now. --David Mestel 21:02, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I wonder if he speaks English at all. In any case he has not responded to a single warning so I'll block him long enough to wake him up to the fact that he is not being helpful. Ashibaka tock 21:56, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Bonaparte again

I have permablocked Georgianis (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki) as a sockpuppet of Bonaparte (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki). The block is based on this edit of him.

There also a few strange facts about the User:Georgianis:

• His signature is a copy of the signature of Romanian User:Ronline with substitution of the Romanian flag with Georgian flag
• His articles Anti-Georgian discrimination is very similar to Bonaparte's Anti-Romanian discrimination
• His style of discussion is very similar
• Before registering, he edited for a few hours as an IP user 140.203.12.4 and 193.136.242.251 . One IP is an open proxy from Moscow and the other is an open proxy from Portugal, using open proxies is a trademark of Bonaparte

I had an edit conflict with User:Georgianis. so please review my block abakharev 22:10, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

• Good catch Alex! -- Grafikm 22:11, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Actually catch is Khoikhoi's. The block is mine abakharev 22:46, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Well kudos to you both in this case :) -- Grafikm 22:48, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Constant Forum spam on Pontiac Fiero

Can someone do something about the CONSTANT forum spam on Pontiac Fiero over the past 60 days? I remove links on a regular basis, but all I know how to do is edit articles. I'm hoping someone that knows more about Misplaced Pages or an admin can stop this permanently. Thanks! Stuph 23:04, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

• I put in a block request here. They're blocked now. Fan-1967 02:49, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Hopiakuta

Look what I found: User:Hopiakuta ¡¿ doppelgänger

There is a phone number on this fake userpage, please figure out what to do with it. (I am slow-witted and don't know the appropriate action.) Ashibaka tock 23:35, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I've deleted that and the associated pages as nonsense.  RasputinAXP  02:08, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

SlimVirgin plays tag

User:SlimVirgin likes to tag "suspected sockpuppets". The problem is she does so based entirely on intuition and without any basis in fact. Take this tag for instance which is of an ip address that has made a single innocuous edit. She tags it as a "suspected sockpuppet" of gnetuser despite the fact that gnetuser has never edited the article User:207.118.11.38 edited. She uses as her "evidence" Special:Contributions/88.149.150.58 except that there is absolutely no correlation between the articles edited by 88.149 and those by 207.118. Don't tagging admins have an obligation to actually build a case to support a sockpuppetry allegation and not do it purely as a whim? 172.216.75.250 00:00, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

As a matter of interest, Gnetwerker, what made you notice the tagging of 207.118.11.38? SlimVirgin 00:38, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not gnetworker, I guess this is another example of your intuition misfiring. I found out about it by looking at your recent edits, how else? Please don't say you're above scrutiny, the special contribs function is there for a reason.172.216.75.250 01:03, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

But why did you pick on that IP address to highlight, and not any of the others? And you are Gnetwerker. This is your modus operandi: posting complaints on AN/I or AN about the users you are harassing, claiming they are wikistalking you or others. SlimVirgin 01:35, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Is there a certain posting habit you're noticing here? Are these IPs proxies? Because they don't seem to be in the same block or anything. Ashibaka tock 00:46, 16 August 2006 (UTC) She responded on my talk page Ashibaka tock 01:07, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

User:Jayjg does this too, see User talk:Irob. I don't know where exactly their evidence comes from. Ashibaka tock 00:29, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Why would you bring me up, and why would you even comment, if you don't know where my evidence comes from? Jayjg 02:12, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I really don't know how you can positively state what her reasoning is for the tags. Anyways, they were suspected and not confirmed which means that Slimvirgin did nothing improper even if your accusations were true.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 00:42, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

That's exactly the problem, my boy, no one can postively state what her reasoning is for the tags because she hasn't provided any evidence. Admins should put forward a credible reason before they smack on a sockpuppet tag. It certainly is improper, and a violation of AGF, to slap on a tag accusing someone of being a sockpuppet without the necessary evidence. I'm sure if someone did that to you you'd agree. 172.216.75.250 01:03, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually you are mistaken, nothing she did was inappropriate. What was inappropriate was for you to post something here saying she placed the tag purely based on intuition when in reality you had no idea if that was really the case.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 01:30, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Unexplained or phantom block, confused user

User_talk:Alastor_Moody claims that he's been blocked with no explanation. There are no warnings or block notices on his page and his block log is empty. I don't know whether it's a good block or a tech glitch or a practical joke, but he's one of the youngest Wikipedians and is confused and upset. Could an Admin take a look? Newyorkbrad 00:19, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Is he editing from his usual IP? That might explain it. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 00:20, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Update: Looks like someone already got there while I was typing, although I'm curious what turns out to have happened. Newyorkbrad 00:21, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Delete recent posts on User talk:Nathanrdotcom

For the sake of privacy, can someone delete the last 20 or so edits on Nathan's talkpage? The Halo removed the worst of it, but the links are a but harmful to some people here. The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 00:19, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I checked, confirmed that it was a damaging link, and deleted it. Although... I accidentally deleted a lot of revisions along with it... hehhhh. Actually, we should only delete links that provide personal info. Nathan should think twice about what he writes about his imaginary Wikipedian love life but he doesn't quote any personal communications or give out personal info on that page. Ashibaka tock 00:40, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

This whole thing only proves that there are many sad lonely people spending whole their lifes in front of their computers - and wikipedia is now what public web-based chatrooms used to be. 85.70.5.66 00:48, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I would agree. The whole section starting with my request should be stricken from the record. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 00:55, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with JohnnyBGood as well. I believe that it does give out persoanl information (though it doesn't give out real names) which could lead to harrassment in the future. Also, an IP has re-added the link. The IP comes from ontario, exactly where Nathan comes from. Coincidence? Thε Halo 01:00, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Agree. This is just causing me heartbreak Will 01:02, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't give out "personal information" in the sense that usually merits deletion, but Doc has protected it so I guess that's his call. Ashibaka tock 01:09, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

You only think about yourself, don't you. Fredil Yupigo 01:08, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Deleted by Doc for now. I'm afraid that neither Nathan nor his friends understand the first rule of holes. The more he writes, the more it appears he was not so misunderstood after all. Thatcher131 (talk) 01:10, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

My thoughts exactly. I was on the verge of defending him until he posted through a proxy. But now I know better and knowing is half the battle (queue the GI Joe music). JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 01:13, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I have deleted and protected the talk page. I would ask that it remains that way, unless there is a clear consensus of arbs to do otherwise. The existence of this discussion is not in the interests of any party involved, or of wikipedia. Let's move along. --Doc 01:09, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

It's an interest to me, though I'm not asking you to restore the conversation. Fredil Yupigo 02:32, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Nonsense sentence for Louis Jolliet

The page for "Louis Jolliet" (or Joliet) has the following sentence:

"In 1672, she said penis."

Haven't corrected it, because I wonder if anything was deleted (or replaced) when the sentence was written... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.67.66.12 (talk • contribs)

• You can click on the history tab at the top of the article to see all the times it has be edited, and clicking on a particular date and time will show you what that version looked like. You can certainly fix it yourself if no one beats you to it. Thatcher131 (talk) 01:26, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

User:Will314159

Note this is the second time that I am posting this here, first time was here (http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=69685213, but User:Will314159 keeps on going inserting non reputable pov material into the Neo-fascism article . I have warned him about the 3RR rule , which he does not yet seem to have breached, mainly because he is just editing out of the 24hour time period. His edits have been reverted by me , User:DNewhall , User:Isarig and User:Sxeptomaniac , at multiple times . This reverting has become quite tiresome. Any help would be appreciated!! Intangible 00:56, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Material is sourced, documented and has been modified to meet all objections except Isarigs and Inangibles. They object because they are Israel apolologists. That is their sole reason for objection and it is pure POV and w/o merit. Professor Juan Cole's opinion that Likud is neo-fascist a valid opinion. see talk page. They are trying to exercise thought control and censorship by their continuous deletions and reversions. Will314159 01:34, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

WP:Pain again

I (AYArktos (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)) seem to have once again failed in using my admin tools, such that it has been recommended that I should resign from adminship if the best you can do is stick up for bullying. Firstly, can someone else see if they can help LGagnon out - see his complaints at WP:PAIN. I would happily receive feedback as to what I should do differently or whether I should resign. As a volunteer I am getting a bit sick of the attacks.--A Y Arktos\ 01:07, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Don't resign. If you think you might be using the tools incorrectly, then be more conservative with them until you gain more confidence. From my 15-second glance at that PAIN page, I'd have advised telling both of those guys to cool down, but you did ok. If you get stressed out dealing with that kind of dispute, then just stay away from them and work on other areas. Phr (talk) 02:23, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

copyvio photo Image:Truong.jpg

It was uploaded by blocked troll User:DocCory who was blocked as a sock of banned User:Amorrow. First uploaded as "Sam Sloan has released all rights" but then changed to self-GFDL when someone complained about the license. Actual source of image is http://www.ishipress.com/uswomans.htm - I have doubts that Sam Sloan is the photographer but it's sort of possible that he is. Sloan does sometimes release rights to photos.

It's a pretty good bet that 75.26.6.189 (talk · contribs) is the same person as DocCory and also needs a block if he keeps editing. Phr (talk) 02:08, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

LGagnon removing Rand philosopher references

User:LGagnon, as seen from his contributions is combing through every Misplaced Pages article he can find to remove any implication that Ayn Rand was a philosopher or that her belief system constituted a "philosophy". This is despite that fact being meticulously documented by reliable sources. Although this may appear like a mere content dispute warranting dispute resolution, it is not. The matter is being discussed here , and the consensus is leaning heavily agains the change LGagnon wants to make. He is being extremely disruptive to make such extensive, difficult-to-reverse changes to numerous articles based on what he wants to be the policy. I ask that you put a stop to this until the consensus can be reached. MrVoluntarist 02:26, 16 August 2006 (UTC) Some examples before they are hard to find: MrVoluntarist 02:29, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Nice try with the strawman. The dispute is actually leaning towards my argument, not away from it. There is not enough proof that Rand is a philosopher, as only a very rare few academics back this claim. Rand-related articles are currently skewed in her and her followers favor, making all of them POV. What I am doing is required in order for these articles to maintain a NPOV status. There are very, very few academic sources that call Rand a philosopher, and most "reliable sources" given in articles come from Rand's supporters, almost all of whom have no academic credibility. Consensus isn't needed when the facts say that calling Rand a philosopher is POV. -- LGagnon 02:50, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Just because you disagree with a claim, does not make it a strawman. Let's use terms properly if we could. Someone doesn't have to be "academia approved" to be a philosopher. Please. We've gone over this for months and months. No one is going to be unduly influenced in favor of Rand by seeing that she's a philosopher. That's just insane. MrVoluntarist 02:54, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I meant the entirity of your argument is one. You are trying to make a simple content dispute look like a holy war.

And again you assume your statements are understood to be true instead of backing them with evidence. Yes, a lot of people back Rand because she claims to be a philosopher; in fact, most Randists do. It's not until they learn that they are dealing with a pseudo-philosopher that they stop backing her ideology.

And you are trying to keep an academic term in articles involving an anti-academic and her pseudoscientific ideology. Her work is only "philosophy" in the sense that intelligent design is a "theory". It only counts as such in the vernacular sense, which a responsible and accurate encyclopedia should not be using to describe a pseudo-science. -- LGagnon 03:17, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

As you've been counselled by multiple editors, try dispute resolution. There's no administrative action that will help out here. Shell 03:12, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Violation of WP:TROLL, WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL by Cyde

Here's the diff. He blocked me for apparently the same thing a few days ago, i'm awaiting his block, unless there's a double standard around here. Attic Owl 02:35, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Well I hope it isn't, but this sounds a bit like Karmafist to me. Karmafist was bragging on WR about how his socks voted for Phaedriel, which this user did. I hope its just a coincidence that they both live in New Hampshire. pschemp | talk 02:39, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Also Kamafist started List of Bountyheads in Cowboy Bebop, featured on User:Attic Owl. Sigh. And here I was hoping his news about the socks was a disinformation campaign designed to have us paranoid and wasting our time. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 02:48, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to put my two cents in here real quick. Attic Owl has behaved in an uncivil manner towards Kelly Martin and Cyde Weys. Now Cyde did in my opinion make a boardline uncivil comment on A.O.s page about becoming a member of Esperanza. Cyde Weys was in my opinion as a Non SYSOP to be justifed in 48 hour block. A.O. has shown that he doesn't understand Wiki Policy. How ever if this member is a possible sock then can we run a check user? Æon 02:44, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Cyde's comment, while I found it funny, probably did go a bit too far (but if this is indeed a sockpuppet, I couldn't really care less). Still I don't see the point of a block except to slap him on the wrist... not really what blocks are for. --W.marsh 02:54, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Tada, and we just bagged one of those sockpuppet accounts that Karmafist claims was "ready to go up for adminship". LOL. He's not going to have too much success with these if he can't resist slandering Kelly Martin and me. --Cyde Weys 02:45, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Incivility that is provoked is understandable. Occasional incivility is forgivable. Constant incivility is the only thing worth bothering this noticeboard with, and I don't see that here. If Cyde's occasional snarkiness has contributed here to outing a chronically disruptive sockpuppeteer, then that is a Good Thing. FeloniousMonk 02:56, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Just a note I have informed Natalya about Attic Owl so she can take action where Esperanza is cocerned )Since he just became a member of EA) Just want to let you all know. Æon 02:59, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

All the proof you need. Karmafist gave himself away too easily on this account. --Cyde Weys 03:00, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

That's not proof, or at least it's not all the proof I need. But I do think this is looking like an obvious enough sock, yes. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 03:08, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Think it's a coincidence that as soon you said it was an obvious sock you got this little present on your userpage? --Cyde Weys 03:21, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually I do. I'm chasing EddieSegoura/The Exicornt vandal around at the moment, that's exactly his style, and and... trying... trying... nyyyyyyyrghhhhhhh ah I can't stretch my ABF far enough right now to believe Karmafist is him. Although it is tempting, given the timing. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 03:24, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

We've already seen interesting allegations of Karmafist being or being associated with the airport vandal. It wouldn't surprised me if there was a vandal cabal somewhere out there. --Cyde Weys 03:30, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh silly me. I thought that that's what WR was. pschemp | talk 03:59, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

WR actually does seem to have a useful purpose. It's where the trolls go to troll and attack each other. Today's big blowup thread is especially fun for me ... it's like watching Hitler's car wreck in slow motion, you know exactly what's about to happen and you wouldn't want to stop it anyway. --Cyde Weys 04:07, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

WR? huh? -- Kim van der Linde 04:13, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

With regards to "it's ok to be rude to socks" I'd suggest that it's never ok to be rude. Do we so easily forget TheChief? How he was roundly derided as an obvious abusive secondaccount , subjected to a bollocking, and then "Oops not a sock after all!" - brenneman 04:19, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I would agree quite strongly. Being rude to a sock only encourages the creation of more disruptive attack socks. 71.57.164.200 04:28, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

WP:WR redirects to Misplaced Pages:WikiReader, but somehow, I don't think that's what they are referring to. ⇒ JarlaxleArtemis 04:39, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

They mean Misplaced Pages Review, which you will have to Google for. Ashibaka tock 05:20, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I would like to state that the creation of more disruptive attack socks would not necessarily be a bad thing, as they are amusing and would just be blocked, anyway. ⇒ JarlaxleArtemis 04:43, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Sockpuppets are amusing but you also have to deal with them. Better to have fewer disruptive sockpuppets and more people working on articles. Ashibaka tock 05:21, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

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