| Revision as of 01:08, 28 January 2016 editSkyring (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users22,592 edits →Removed material← Previous edit | Revision as of 11:39, 28 January 2016 edit undoTravelmite (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users1,504 edits →Removed materialNext edit → | ||
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| The article previously said "''The election of a Labor majority in 1972 marked the end of a period where Australians saw themselves principally as part of the Commonwealth of Nations (formerly the British Empire)''". It's not clear to me what this actually refers to, I have tried to rationalise this by adding "''with the Whitlam government implementing a number of reforms that strengthened Australia's independent nationhood''". Does anyone know what the original author might have meant? What specifically is special about the Whitlam government that led to such a (seemingly) sudden change in national identity? --] (]) 12:10, 13 November 2015 (UTC) | The article previously said "''The election of a Labor majority in 1972 marked the end of a period where Australians saw themselves principally as part of the Commonwealth of Nations (formerly the British Empire)''". It's not clear to me what this actually refers to, I have tried to rationalise this by adding "''with the Whitlam government implementing a number of reforms that strengthened Australia's independent nationhood''". Does anyone know what the original author might have meant? What specifically is special about the Whitlam government that led to such a (seemingly) sudden change in national identity? --] (]) 12:10, 13 November 2015 (UTC) | ||
| ==Removed material== | ==Removed material / Canadian Monarchists vandalising this article == | ||
| ⚫ | Looking at some of the material removed, it is indeed unsourced. Perhaps the best way forward would be to fix any problems in a polite fashion. --] (]) 16:04, 27 January 2016 (UTC) | ||
| I've just checked the edit history of this page. There is a user called Miesianiacal who is a writer for the Canadian Monarchist League. I can see a long history of severe violations of Misplaced Pages rules. He is relentless in removing parts of the article, that show republicanism is valid. I've just fixed up the vandalism that I've seen, whole paragraphs haven been taken out. Even the way Australians discuss the issue has been replaced by the whitewashing terms of Canadian Monarchist League. How much damage has been done, is hard to say. ] (]) 15:57, 27 January 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :Mies has some odd ideas. If one asked if he believes there is an Australian Royal Family, he would say "Yes, of course!". He has been editing Australian articles from a Canadian perspective for a long time, and while he may be solid in Canada, he's often wildly out of touch with personalities and issues here. | |||
| :However, he has a keen mind, and looking at some of the material he's removed, it is indeed unsourced. Perhaps the best way forward would be to fix any problems he finds in a polite fashion. --] (]) 16:04, 27 January 2016 (UTC) | |||
| I hope the dispute gets settled here, in order to avoid any edit-warring on the article. ] (]) 17:31, 27 January 2016 (UTC) | I hope the dispute gets settled here, in order to avoid any edit-warring on the article. ] (]) 17:31, 27 January 2016 (UTC) | ||
| ⚫ | Looking at some of the material removed, it is indeed unsourced. Perhaps the best way forward would be to fix any problems in a polite fashion. --] (]) 16:04, 27 January 2016 (UTC) | ||
| :Without wanting to ] anybody, is it true that a certain Canadian editor is a spokesman for a Canadian monarchist league? Unless there's payment made for pushing a relentless monarchist line all over Misplaced Pages, it's probably not a ] but still, it is something that should be disclosed. --] (]) 01:08, 28 January 2016 (UTC) | :Without wanting to ] anybody, is it true that a certain Canadian editor is a spokesman for a Canadian monarchist league? Unless there's payment made for pushing a relentless monarchist line all over Misplaced Pages, it's probably not a ] but still, it is something that should be disclosed. --] (]) 01:08, 28 January 2016 (UTC) | ||
| ::The edits of user Miesianiacal represent the aims of the Canadian Monarchist League. I think it's irrelevant if it's a paid position. The objective is to whitewash. The activity is certainly supported by the membership dues. Misplaced Pages should not be a tool for any organisation. If anyone goes over the history, there are dozens of edit-wars, where he has deleted or changed material and they were restored, but occasionally, a deletion is missed by the editors. Threats are made I found and restored three paragraphs. Miesianiacal's action was to undo the changes, and delete the crucial comment that he is speaking on behalf of CML. Other editors should be aware that this is a serious situation (arguably corruption) and it may be justified to place Miesianiacal under an edit ban. ] (]) 11:38, 28 January 2016 (UTC) | |||
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Succession law is irrelevant
It was suggested by Mr IP that it would be better to base my objection to G2bambino's edits on the basis of relevance. The Statute of Westminster is not connected to republicanism in Australia. It was not a product of republican sentiment nor did it stir up republicanism in our nation. Perhaps this belongs in a article on colonialism. --Lawe (talk) 08:53, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
- If succession laws are connected to republicanism in Australia, then the Statute of Westminster becomes relevant, or, are you denying the SoW's provisions that explicitly relate to succession? --G2bambino (talk) 22:52, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
- Actually, I do deny it, but who cares. Succession is about the monarchy. This article is about Australian Republicanism. --Lawe (talk) 04:50, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
- So, then, you propose to remove all the information regarding succession? Including the statement by Brennan? --G2bambino (talk) 15:24, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
- Brennan's statement was not about succession. It was about representation. That is why the heading says Representing Australia. Both of us are fully aware that your edits are not reflective of either republicanism (or monarchist counter arguments.) What strange idea will be proposed next? But do not worry, we will be here to keep this article consistent with the main elements of the debate in Australia. --Lawe (talk) 10:09, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
- It is? Please show how. As I read it, the word "determined" would mean "chosen," which relates to succession. Where does he say anything about representation? Indeed, where have I added any arguments? I'm not sure why I bother asking, as, no matter how many of you are included in the collective "we," you won't answer any questions put to you. I'm still utterly counfounded as to what it is you're actually reading; one wonders if you're confusing this article with some other. --G2bambino (talk) 13:55, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
- I can show it because when asked for sources, they could not found and could not be provided. --Lawe (talk) 13:25, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- The following site may be useful to G2bambino: http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/page5655.asp --Lawe (talk) 13:35, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- Could you please address what I actually said? --G2bambino (talk) 17:04, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- I am addressing your statement that you don't understand this issue --Lawe (talk) 11:58, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- Could you please address what I actually said? --G2bambino (talk) 17:04, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- It is? Please show how. As I read it, the word "determined" would mean "chosen," which relates to succession. Where does he say anything about representation? Indeed, where have I added any arguments? I'm not sure why I bother asking, as, no matter how many of you are included in the collective "we," you won't answer any questions put to you. I'm still utterly counfounded as to what it is you're actually reading; one wonders if you're confusing this article with some other. --G2bambino (talk) 13:55, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
- Brennan's statement was not about succession. It was about representation. That is why the heading says Representing Australia. Both of us are fully aware that your edits are not reflective of either republicanism (or monarchist counter arguments.) What strange idea will be proposed next? But do not worry, we will be here to keep this article consistent with the main elements of the debate in Australia. --Lawe (talk) 10:09, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
- So, then, you propose to remove all the information regarding succession? Including the statement by Brennan? --G2bambino (talk) 15:24, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
- Actually, I do deny it, but who cares. Succession is about the monarchy. This article is about Australian Republicanism. --Lawe (talk) 04:50, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
What you are doing is purposefully impeding discussion by not clearly answering questions or addressing issues. You said that succession law is irrelevant to the republican issue in Australia. I said that then included Brennan's statement, as it relates to succession (i.e. the UK parliament's control over it). You said Brennan's comment did not relate to succession, but related to representation of Australia, instead. I asked you to clarify exactly how it speaks about representation and not succession, as I certainly don't see it. You have not responded to that last question, and continue to edit as though it was never asked. --G2bambino (talk) 15:27, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- Brennan's comment related to the constitutional difficulties that the Head of State must be the same as the British Monarch under the Constitution Act. --Lawe (talk) 09:33, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- He makes no mention of difficulties, he merely makes a somewhat skewed presentation of the legal reality around succession. You now say that has nothing to do with republicanism. --G2bambino (talk) 01:48, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, he makes mention of difficulties. No, he is not talking about secession. Please do not make any disparaging comments about Justice Brennan's legal competence. --Lawe (talk) 02:52, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
- You are correct about his mentioning difficulties, but it's obviously about succession. In fact, he distinctly points to the Act of Settlement 1701 and discusses Prince William inheriting the throne from his grandmother. --G2bambino (talk) 02:58, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
- And he does not have a problem with that, and neither does any republican. Your aunty could inherit the throne for all it matters to an Australian Republic. --Lawe (talk) 03:44, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
- That isn't relevant. What is to the point is that he talks about succession, not representation, and you said succession is not relevant to republicanism in Australia. --G2bambino (talk) 03:46, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
- And he does not have a problem with that, and neither does any republican. Your aunty could inherit the throne for all it matters to an Australian Republic. --Lawe (talk) 03:44, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
- You are correct about his mentioning difficulties, but it's obviously about succession. In fact, he distinctly points to the Act of Settlement 1701 and discusses Prince William inheriting the throne from his grandmother. --G2bambino (talk) 02:58, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, he makes mention of difficulties. No, he is not talking about secession. Please do not make any disparaging comments about Justice Brennan's legal competence. --Lawe (talk) 02:52, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
- He makes no mention of difficulties, he merely makes a somewhat skewed presentation of the legal reality around succession. You now say that has nothing to do with republicanism. --G2bambino (talk) 01:48, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
- Royal Successions is one of the major (if not the major) reasons, republicans object to monarchy (IMO). That's partially why in the USA, John McCain or Barack Obama couldn't choose any of their children as a running-mate. GoodDay (talk) 20:01, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
- This discussion is about sucession law. Such infomation belongs in other articles. --Lawe (talk) 07:57, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Moratorium
Lets compile a list of republicans who support Malcolm Turnbill's moratorium on republicanism during this Queen's reign. 121.216.35.172 (talk) 17:03, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
- We could compile many lists, but that may considered original research. --Lawe (talk) 09:22, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
Does reference 43 really prove those gentlemen support Mr Turnbull's moratorium?121.216.35.172 (talk) 13:20, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
- The article is consistent with the reference. It does not discuss a moratorium. --Lawe (talk) 09:22, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
Protected for one week
I've just protected this article from editing for one week to encourage the resolution of the slow-paced edit war which has been going on here in the last few weeks. Nick-D (talk) 08:44, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
- Thank you. I hope this will garner at least an acknowledgement from User:Davrosz of the message regarding this matter that I left at his talk page nearly two weeks ago. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 08:58, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
Opinion polls and surveys
Given the backwards-and-forwards edits of the polls on this page, it would make sense to put them all in a single table, such as this:
| Poll | Date undertaken (published) | Monarchy | Republic | Don't know | Margin of Error | Number surveyed |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Sydney Morning Herald and Sun Herald | (21 November 2010) | 25% | 68% | 1,000 |
- This poll was undertaken following the announcement of Prince William of Wales engagement.
Thoughts? --LJ Holden 07:02, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
- Dident a separate poll by the SMH (August 2010) over the summer show that only 29% wanted a republic, 44% wanted to retain the monarchy, and the remainder being undecided? 24.46.236.67 (talk) 01:00, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
- Did it? Perhaps you could find a reference? --LJ Holden 03:54, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
- Here we go: http://www.smh.com.au/national/not-ready-for-a-republic-well-we-are-amused-20100828-13wv7.html24.46.236.67 (talk) 01:55, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
- I've added the poll, but it doesn't say only 29% wanted a republic - it was 29% wanted a republic now. --LJ Holden 22:10, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
- Here we go: http://www.smh.com.au/national/not-ready-for-a-republic-well-we-are-amused-20100828-13wv7.html24.46.236.67 (talk) 01:55, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
- Did it? Perhaps you could find a reference? --LJ Holden 03:54, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
- Dident a separate poll by the SMH (August 2010) over the summer show that only 29% wanted a republic, 44% wanted to retain the monarchy, and the remainder being undecided? 24.46.236.67 (talk) 01:00, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
Lead
The current "stable" lead says "Such sentiments have been expressed in Australia from before federation onward to the present, generally achieving little success or approval." An anon editor changed the end of the sentence to "but have thus far been unsuccessful." IMHO the Anon edit is actually more accurate, the approval or otherwise of Republicanism in Australia is discussed elsewhere in the article, and contradicts the lead statement. --LJ Holden 09:11, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
- Well, I don't really mind either phrase too much, but I think that the one I reverted to is more accurate, and also that the opinion of more editors should be sought before making a change to the lead, as it has been in the form I reverted to for a long time (months? years?). The lead is very short, and even a minor change is important therefore. The question of whether or not republicanism has been successful is of course answered by a no, and the change made by the anon IP conforms with that. But the question here is whether or not there has been/is approval for it. Approval from the Australian people for becoming a republic has changed a lot over the years. Just looking at that approval within 3 to 2 decades, it has gone from having mild support to a large amount of support towards the 1999 republic referendum and following that begun to slowly fall. So, looking at the recent past, it's hard to tell. But looking at Australia's history from the formation of the Commonwealth of Australia, republicanism, in general, across Australian history, has only received little approval. I feel that is what the lead has been saying for all these months, and that it is perfectly accurate. --~Knowzilla 11:54, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
- Note that I sought other editors opinions on the change, it wasn't until I made the change that it drew your attention to it once again. I accept the success criteria in the sentence is accurate. I disagree with your view that the other part of the sentence, on approval for republicanism in the sentence, is "perfectly accurate". The sentence makes it sound as if there is little support for republicanism presently, which as I've pointed out previously is inaccurate. You yourself say its "hard to tell" exactly what support has been like in the recent past. It's fairly obvious that support has increased significantly today looking back at Australia's history. --LJ Holden 18:46, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
- Ok, perhaps I should remove the clause of the sentence in dispute? --LJ Holden 21:31, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
- In response to your comment on 22nd February: I agree that republicanism in Australia has more than just little support when it comes to the issue. What I am saying is that across Australian history federation onwards, it has had little support in general. I am not speaking about the recent past. And I think that the sentence and the clause reflects that: "Such sentiments have been expressed in Australia from before federation onward to the present, generally achieving little success or approval". I have underlined the key words and clauses. --~Knowzilla 11:55, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
- I'm not sure why you feel it was necessary to bold and underline the specific clauses. I understand what you're saying, I just disagree with it, as it is contradicted by the rest of the article; moreover it makes it appear as though that there is little support presently. In any case, I'm not convinced that support or otherwise should actually be in the lead, hence my comment on the 25 February. --LJ Holden 21:40, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
- In response to your comment on 22nd February: I agree that republicanism in Australia has more than just little support when it comes to the issue. What I am saying is that across Australian history federation onwards, it has had little support in general. I am not speaking about the recent past. And I think that the sentence and the clause reflects that: "Such sentiments have been expressed in Australia from before federation onward to the present, generally achieving little success or approval". I have underlined the key words and clauses. --~Knowzilla 11:55, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
- Ok, perhaps I should remove the clause of the sentence in dispute? --LJ Holden 21:31, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
- Note that I sought other editors opinions on the change, it wasn't until I made the change that it drew your attention to it once again. I accept the success criteria in the sentence is accurate. I disagree with your view that the other part of the sentence, on approval for republicanism in the sentence, is "perfectly accurate". The sentence makes it sound as if there is little support for republicanism presently, which as I've pointed out previously is inaccurate. You yourself say its "hard to tell" exactly what support has been like in the recent past. It's fairly obvious that support has increased significantly today looking back at Australia's history. --LJ Holden 18:46, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
"Institutions in Australia could also no longer apply to have a royal in their title"
Is there some kind of legal prohibition on this or is it just actively discouraged? I'd be interested in a cite for that one. -- MichiganCharms (talk) 09:36, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
- Looking into this a little more, this does not seem true at all: see this guide from the Queensland government for example, which also annexes the memorandum recording the outcome of negotiations amongst the states, the Commonwealth and the Palace regarding this and other questions of protocol and prerogative. I'll amend the text. --62.189.73.197 (talk) 13:55, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
Monarchists creeping bias
All readers should know that this article is biased to give the false impression that republicanism is "on life support" and has had little success. Canadian monarchists monitor this page closely to defend bad edits, selectively quote the media and introduce confusing material. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.245.210.251 (talk) 19:18, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
- As you can see from my comments / threads above, there is an unanswered question as to the lead of this article (which is still uncited). --LJ Holden 20:05, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
- "On life support" is just emotive. The poll material are the statistics presented to some monarchist group. This article is a good example of how a lobby group uses wikipedia for a political purpose. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.245.215.39 (talk) 03:29, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- Perhaps, but I'd rather talk about improving the article than pointing the finger. IIRC "on life support" was a reference at the ARM itself in the mid-2000s, not republicanism per se. --LJ Holden 21:42, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- "On life support" is just emotive. The poll material are the statistics presented to some monarchist group. This article is a good example of how a lobby group uses wikipedia for a political purpose. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.245.215.39 (talk) 03:29, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to 12 external links on Republicanism in Australia. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/20110108183157/http://www.aph.gov.au/hansard/conv/con0202.pdf to http://www.aph.gov.au/Hansard/conv/con0202.pdf
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090318080039/http://vic.republic.org.au/index_files/speeches/MelbRep02.PDF to http://vic.republic.org.au/index_files/speeches/MelbRep02.PDF
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/20131115035755/http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,18289528-1702,00.html to http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,18289528-1702,00.html
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/20131029202010/http://www.australianpolitics.com/executive/keating/950607republic-speech.shtml to http://www.australianpolitics.com/executive/keating/950607republic-speech.shtml
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/20120204035037/http://www.aph.gov.au/hansard/senate/commttee/S7541.pdf to http://www.aph.gov.au/hansard/senate/commttee/S7541.pdf
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/20110925115424/http://www.aph.gov.au/SENATE/committee/legcon_ctte/completed_inquiries/2002-04/republic03/report/c02.pdf to http://www.aph.gov.au/SENATE/committee/legcon_ctte/completed_inquiries/2002-04/republic03/report/c02.pdf
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/20110925115424/http://www.aph.gov.au/SENATE/committee/legcon_ctte/completed_inquiries/2002-04/republic03/report/c02.pdf to http://www.aph.gov.au/SENATE/committee/legcon_ctte/completed_inquiries/2002-04/republic03/report/c02.pdf
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/20080704143759/http://www.abc.net.au:80/rn/talks/8.30/relrpt/stories/s938041.htm to http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/8.30/relrpt/stories/s938041.htm
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/20110925115424/http://www.aph.gov.au/SENATE/committee/legcon_ctte/completed_inquiries/2002-04/republic03/report/c02.pdf to http://www.aph.gov.au/SENATE/committee/legcon_ctte/completed_inquiries/2002-04/republic03/report/c02.pdf
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/20110605084047/http://www.aph.gov.au/SENATE/committee/legcon_ctte/completed_inquiries/2002-04/republic03/report/c07.pdf to http://www.aph.gov.au/SENATE/committee/legcon_ctte/completed_inquiries/2002-04/republic03/report/c07.pdf
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/20080627121808/http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/committee/legcon_ctte/completed_inquiries/2002-04/republic03/submissions/sub167.pdf to http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/committee/legcon_ctte/completed_inquiries/2002-04/republic03/submissions/sub167.pdf
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/20110629145816/http://www.aph.gov.au/Senate/pubs/occa_lect/transcripts/060309/060309.pdf to http://www.aph.gov.au/Senate/pubs/occa_lect/transcripts/060309/060309.pdf
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What's special about the Whitlam government?
The article previously said "The election of a Labor majority in 1972 marked the end of a period where Australians saw themselves principally as part of the Commonwealth of Nations (formerly the British Empire)". It's not clear to me what this actually refers to, I have tried to rationalise this by adding "with the Whitlam government implementing a number of reforms that strengthened Australia's independent nationhood". Does anyone know what the original author might have meant? What specifically is special about the Whitlam government that led to such a (seemingly) sudden change in national identity? --62.189.73.197 (talk) 12:10, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
Removed material / Canadian Monarchists vandalising this article
I've just checked the edit history of this page. There is a user called Miesianiacal who is a writer for the Canadian Monarchist League. I can see a long history of severe violations of Misplaced Pages rules. He is relentless in removing parts of the article, that show republicanism is valid. I've just fixed up the vandalism that I've seen, whole paragraphs haven been taken out. Even the way Australians discuss the issue has been replaced by the whitewashing terms of Canadian Monarchist League. How much damage has been done, is hard to say. Travelmite (talk) 15:57, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
- Mies has some odd ideas. If one asked if he believes there is an Australian Royal Family, he would say "Yes, of course!". He has been editing Australian articles from a Canadian perspective for a long time, and while he may be solid in Canada, he's often wildly out of touch with personalities and issues here.
- However, he has a keen mind, and looking at some of the material he's removed, it is indeed unsourced. Perhaps the best way forward would be to fix any problems he finds in a polite fashion. --Pete (talk) 16:04, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
I hope the dispute gets settled here, in order to avoid any edit-warring on the article. GoodDay (talk) 17:31, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
Looking at some of the material removed, it is indeed unsourced. Perhaps the best way forward would be to fix any problems in a polite fashion. --Pete (talk) 16:04, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
- Without wanting to WP:OUT anybody, is it true that a certain Canadian editor is a spokesman for a Canadian monarchist league? Unless there's payment made for pushing a relentless monarchist line all over Misplaced Pages, it's probably not a conflict of interest but still, it is something that should be disclosed. --Pete (talk) 01:08, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
- The edits of user Miesianiacal represent the aims of the Canadian Monarchist League. I think it's irrelevant if it's a paid position. The objective is to whitewash. The activity is certainly supported by the membership dues. Misplaced Pages should not be a tool for any organisation. If anyone goes over the history, there are dozens of edit-wars, where he has deleted or changed material and they were restored, but occasionally, a deletion is missed by the editors. Threats are made I found and restored three paragraphs. Miesianiacal's action was to undo the changes, and delete the crucial comment that he is speaking on behalf of CML. Other editors should be aware that this is a serious situation (arguably corruption) and it may be justified to place Miesianiacal under an edit ban. Travelmite (talk) 11:38, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
- Tim Barlass (21 November 2010). "Big hopes for Crowns new jewel". Retrieved 2011-01-29.