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User:207.188.29.244

Moved to Talk:Webspace 11:48, 15 August 2006

Margana

Margana's edit-warring at Psephos has been going on for so long it is practically a geological process. There has been a brief respite during which he abstained out of fear of being blocked by me, but as soon as I undertook not to block him again (having become too involved) he returned to the article to edit war some more.

For months he has edit-warred and disrupted this article out of his insistence on including his personal POV version of an assertion that the subject of the article is politically biased, using Cuba as an example. With a resolution finally at hand, he has today suddenly decided to use Laos instead, taking us back three months to have the whole argument all over again. I am so frustrated and angry about this blatant trolling.

Can an uninvolved and relatively calm admin please review and do something before I blow my top? Snottygobble 23:52, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

It looks nicely balanced now. What is the source of the argument? Would it be something for our political science folks or our Australians or....? Geogre 02:49, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Margana is blatantly trying to bait Adam Carr with his edits to this article, and in his incessant edit warring is driving just about every regular Australian editor up the wall. The only reason the article looks reasonable at the moment is because Margana hasn't done his round of reverts for today. I really think this is about time for a community ban - Margana has no useful edits, and wasting enormous amounts of good users' time on this. Rebecca 06:05, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

You looked through all of my 664 edits and determined that all of them were useless? Quite a feat! I should explain to the gallery that Rebecca (who happens to live in the same city as Adam Carr) is the one who wrote that Psephos article, about Adam Carr's website, on Adam Carr's request, and with unverifiable information privately supplied by Adam Carr. She has since on numerous occasions not only reverted without explanation, but also abused rollback to do that. Snottygobble, another Australian with a long history of edit-warring in conjunction with Adam Carr and Rebecca, then violated both protection policy and (twice) blocking policy after he had been involved in the edit war, and just now pledged to stop this, after I engaged an advocate. Margana 21:24, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, Snottygobble, I think you'd be prudent to keep out of it now. From a brief review, this looks like a user who is confrontational and "difficult" but good at Wikilawyering (though I have no idea who is correct about the underlying content dispute, and I don't want to know). It's better if some completely uninvolved admins watch the page and see what happens. Rebecca, have you tried any dispute resolution processes? You should know that it sometimes does more harm than good for admins to try to get involved and conciliate (the term I use for mediation backed by threats) disputes unless there is blatantly abusive conduct. Metamagician3000 08:16, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

This editor has been a pain in the butt at Jimmy Wales in the past, insisting that wikitruth was a reliable source and that info on there should be included in the article. That was resolved by a strawpoll, when it became clear that he was alone in this. This editor games the system systematically, using exactly three reverts per day, even at one time selfreverting after noticing that he had done the fourth within 24 hours and doing it immediatly after the 24 hour period was over . I blocked him after that anyway for gaming the system , but it shows the gaming aspect of this user. As this user is active in a narrow range of articles, only a limited number of editors has encountered him, but the amount of edit warring and gaming is staggering. -- Kim van der Linde 13:07, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

It's a blatant lie that I insisted that "wikitruth was a reliable source" - I didn't use wikitruth as a source for facts, I quoted it, and of course every website is a reliable source as to what it itself says. As to those reverts, all it shows is that I scrupulously respect the 3RR. Somewhere on my talk page I have already explained the absurdity of the whole "gaming" concept (it's like a cop saying "the speed limit is 50 here - you're consistently driving 49, I'm fining you for gaming the system"). Also, a strawpoll, by its very nature, can not possibly "resolve" anything. If anything, a proper vote might resolve something, but then, WP:NOT a democracy. Arguments count, not dittos. I should also note that after KimvdLinde was involved in an edit war with me on Jimmy Wales, she started stalking me and opposing me wherever she could - she would never otherwise have been interested in Psephos, but seeing me there, she reverted against me. Margana 21:34, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Your analogy demonstrates to me that you do not understand 3RR, which is to encourage people to resolve their differences on talk pages and build consensus, rather than attempt to get/keep certain content on a page by reverting. Maybe if you discussed things more and tried to compromise/reason with other editors you would have fewer problems? JChap2007 21:55, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I know what the ideal is, but talking and consensus-building requires that both sides are willing to do that, and acting in good faith. I suggest you take a look at the relevant talk pages. I am the one who discussed more than anyone else. Now on the other hand, try to find the name Rebecca on Talk:Psephos... Margana 22:03, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

If you want to convince people to be sympathetic to you, directing them to that talk page is not a good idea. You are obviously engaged in a pattern of tendentious editing, trying to edit war against a broad consensus (which is not, I hasten to add, synonymous with unanimity). I doubt you will convince people that Cuba or Laos have free elections. You need to realize that you are not going to be able to "win" every "battle" on a wiki, accept it and move on. JChap2007 22:21, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Your comment about me not convincing people "that Cuba or Laos have free elections" shows that you do not remotely understand what this dispute is about, and are shooting from the hip based on what can only be a superficial skimming of the talk page. Nor is there a broad consensus, as I have explained repeatedly. Margana 23:08, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

It sounds like further steps need to be taken for this user; this has been going on for so long that hopes of resolving it peacefully are slim-to-none. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 16:58, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Hence a community ban. Rebecca 01:45, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I haven't formed a particularly favourable view of Margana from my limited investigation of the matter so far (see above), but IMHO it's way premature to be talking about a community ban. Again, aren't there dispute resolution processes that could be tried? Is there a problem with someone initiating an RfC in some appropriate form, if the problem seems all that bad? Metamagician3000 02:35, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

• It sure looks like one against all and that one being quite recalcitrant. It also looks like there has been enough time passed that this go to mediation. If that fails (and it probably will), ArbCom. Because this user has been selectively warring or insisting, depending upon your point of view, it isn't really a "community" worn out, so I agree that a community ban isn't appropriate. Geogre 02:50, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I honestly don't believe formal mediation is worth attempting at all; each and every attempt of outside intervention has failed.--cj | talk 11:40, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I think Margana is the victim of having many wikiEnemies because he is passionate about getting the truth out.

User:PhoenixPinion

Why was this user indefinitely blocked for a joke which, admittedly was in bad taste, but didn't violate any policy? JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 22:52, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps because nobody's thought that we needed a policy that says "Don't claim that other editors are dead, unless it is really obvious to everyone that you are here to write an encyclopedia and simply lapsed in judgement once". Jkelly 23:02, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Well that user whom he claimed was dead has said it was a joke and one he found rather funny. I fail to see what harm has been done to anyone involved in the encyclopedia by this incident. I can understand a short block if Raven had been upset over the joke. But as he wasn't and it didn't violate any policy, indef blocking is overkill here and probably out of line. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 23:06, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I am not liking the indef block here at all. PhoenixPinion doesn't have much of an editing history, but he has done some OK looking stuff. If User:The_Raven_is_God doesn't have a problem with PhoenixPinion saying he was dead, I think we should treat it as a dumb joke, unblock now, and move on. Unless if there's more backstory that I'm missing. Is there? —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 23:08, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Not that I can tell. Raven may have even approved of the "claim" he was dead from what I can garner. He too is serving a block from what I can see which should also be lifted. Being the butt of a joke is hardly grounds for a 48 hour block. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 23:10, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

It would make sense to take this up with User:Cyde, the blocking admin in both cases. I note that the unblock was denied by User:Shell Kinney. Jkelly 23:16, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I was just asking him to join us here. (Raven's block has expired, BTW). —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 23:18, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't unblock in this circumstance, because what we are dealing with here is a clique of people who know each other in real life and came on Misplaced Pages to have fun, not write the encyclopedia. --Cyde Weys 23:20, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't know about that. I see several productive edits from this user. And it's not like he's either on here often or has a history of disruption. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 23:22, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes. Somewhere along the way of having fun and not writing the encyclopedia, PhoenixPinion seems to have fallen into our trap of trying to make it inviting and fun to actually write an encyclopedia. Look at this: actual edits that not only include content but also cite sources properly. I feel a little uncomfortable citing WP:BITE, as often as it is bandied about like a weapon, but this is what it is about: we attract people for all sorts of reasons and some of them just might make good editors. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 23:28, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Agreee with Bunch and Johnny. Recommend the block be lifted. JoshuaZ 23:32, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I support unblocking--Arktos 23:44, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Since there does seem to be a good amount of support for an unblock can it be reconsidered? JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 00:57, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, he and the other involved users do have a history of disruption and vote stacking (and multiple accounts, at least in the case of User:The Raven and User:The Raven is God), but that doesn't become immediately clear from their contribution history as the hoax articles in question have been deleted. You can check their edits to WP:AFD and related pages, and their edits to each others home pages. But I don't mind that the block is lifted, it was perhaps enough to stop the joking and disruption. Fram 06:29, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

For the record, yes I did find Phoenixpinion's edits of my page humorous (upon logging in I discovered that I was dead, and of a monitor induced seizure no less!). Seeing as it is his first offense too (at least, his first block), I see absolutely no reason that it should be indefinite. While I wouldnt go so far as to call him a regular contributor to wikipedia, I would say he has made quite a few notable edits in his stay here (much more than me in any case)... which is why I strongly advocate the re-considering of his block (See his talk page). --The Raven is God 01:15, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I've unblocked him. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 01:36, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

A user has expressed concern over this block. I think I can shed some light on this; Cyde (the blocking admin) and I were in a rather extended dispute for a while. I know Phoenix in real life in a similar way that Raven is God knows him, and I fear that Cyde may have noticed Phoenix's actions and been a bit harsh due to his association with me. (Cyde blocked me for 34 hours for adding myself to a category that was on CfD after I put it through DRV because Cyde closed the previous CfD prematurely.) I don't know if that's really why Cyde did it, but he didn't respond to my inquiries about it so I pretty much let it go, as I assumed that the community would agree to unblock Phoenix. I've pretty much given up on trying to resolve things with Cyde, and as much as I hate to let it just slip by, I don't have the time to do much of anything about his actions. At any rate, that's what I believe happened, as it's unlikely that Cyde would've noticed the edit (since the first one was made weeks before he blocked Phoenix) had I not questioned him about blocking me, the premature CfD closing, etc. syphonbyte _(t|c) 03:18, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Not "weeks before he blocked Phoenix", but 12 days. And the important thing is not the first edit, but obviously the time since the last edit, which was less than 2 days, and which was the edit that put The Raven is God into the category (before that, it was only a text on his userpage). So your statements are incorrect wrt the timing. Fram 15:38, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

12 days is very close to 2 weeks, I didn't really check the specific amount of time. I think that the important thing was that the first edit was still 12 days prior to the banning. syphonbyte _(t|c) 22:56, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

But what has the first edit to do with anything? It is the last one that counts, certainly in this case, as that was the one that added the user wrongly to the category, and was thus the reason for the block. The first edit you are going on about only shows that the "joke" was already old by then, and that PhoenixPinion felt it was necessary to take it one step further for some obscure reason (and in the middle of him being involved in a CfD about an inappropriate user category, which should have made him even more wary). Why do you try to confuse the issue? Fram 19:39, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

User:Marudubshinki

About three weeks ago Maru was blocked indefinitely by me for a fairly serious BOT useage violation. The incident was discussed here but is now archived. Maru has now requested the block be removed, which I've done, as he's given a promise that he won't do it again. -- I@n 00:53, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Sounds fine to me. Reblock if the bot reappears though, I assume. --W.marsh 01:34, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

This has become a most serious and depressing affair.

Quite a while ago, Maru was blocked indefinitely for continually running an unregistered bot that constantly misbehaved. He unblocked himself, claiming that the bots were shut down, then resumed running his bots that same day.

Some time later he was blocked again, for the same reason, and during the discussion around this later block it was discovered that he had previously unblocked himself on a pretext. He was then warned in the strongest of terms that he must not unblock himself. IIRC, Essjay even threatened an emergency de-sysopping.

As I@n says above, Maru has now promised not to run any unauthorised bots, and requested an unblocking.

However, now things get really sleazy. Maru has just disclosed on his user page that he sometimes uses another account, Rhwawn. Nothing wrong with that, and kudos to him for making it public, except...

He created this account three days after he was blocked, and has made over 700 edits with it. If blatant evasion of a block isn't bad enough, most of Maru's edits through the Rhwawn account are unauthorised bot edits!

This has gone on too long. I am going to apply indefinite blocks to both Maru and Rhwawn, ask Essjay to look into an emergency desysopping, and request a CheckUser.

Snottygobble 01:46, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Endorse permanently banning Rhwawn as an unauthorized bot account and sockpuppet. Endorse indefinite block (in the sense of to be determined) on Maru. Essjay has not been around for several days so you might want to contact another bureaucrat about the de-sysopping and an arbitrator about the checkuser. Thatcher131 (talk) 01:58, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

If the main account is unblocked, I don't see a (policy) reason to block the sock, if the evasion was in the past. An alternative is arbitration now, but since as far as I know he's promised in good faith to stop the bot then I think we should give him a chance. --W.marsh 02:04, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

FYI As far as I've been able to gather (from Marudabshinki), he *is* using the pywikipediabot framework, but he's using a manual or semi-auto tool. This is a lot faster than editing the wiki directly, but it's still under manual control. Kim Bruning 01:59, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

This isn't about Maru's bot flag anymore. It is about Misplaced Pages having an admin that

1. Unblocks himself on a pretext
2. Creates socks to avoid blocks
3. Requests unblocking on a pretext

Snottygobble 02:06, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Endorse block and emergency desysopping. This guy has always struck me as a bit reckless, and he isn't playing by the rules anymore. CanadianCaesar Et tu, Brute? 02:09, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Opinion struck per below. CanadianCaesar Et tu, Brute? 02:20, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Um, like the original block was really dumb? I think the separate account is for when running the bot... (as long as he possibly declared it) , and requesting unblocking is always ok. Granting the request is something else.

I'm not saying that I'm nescesarily right, but it does still seem possible to assume good faith in this instance.

If Marus story is true, then perhaps we could think about desysopping someone else. There's some decent ways to determine the truth though.

We could have an admin or two unblock him, and watch him carefully for a little while. Is that ok? Worst case he messes up, and they can block him again. Kim Bruning 02:12, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Can you clarify your "perhaps we could think about desysopping someone else" comment for me? Snottygobble 02:26, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Um that pretext stuff is pretty assuming bad faith there snotty. Did he evade the block? Yes. Was it stupid? Yes. Is it worth a desysopping? No. He didn't abuse any admin tools this time, just made a sock that did good edits. pschemp | talk 02:09, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

In the first case, Maru was blocked indefinitely, explicitly told not to unblock himself, and told that he would be unblocked once he agreed not to run an unauthorised bot. He unblocked himself, with edit summary "bot shut down", then started up the bot again the same day. That is unblocking on a pretext; its pretty hard to argue with that. The quality of his subsequent edits have nothing to do with it. Snottygobble 02:21, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I am inclined to reduce the blocking to maybe a week or less. Others agree? User:Zscout370 02:14, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Blocking is a means to protect the wiki. Not a punishment. Unblock right away, but keep an eye on Marudabshinki for a while so everyone stays happy. If he's truely the root of all evil, we can always block him again for good. I have some doubt if that'll happen though. Either way, I'd just like to have a couple of extra pairs of competent eyes on the matter. Kim Bruning 02:18, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

If you guys want an admin running around that unblocks himself, evades blocks by creating sockpuppets, and promises not to run unauthorised bots while running an unauthorised bot through a sock, you go ahead an unblock him. I won't wheel war with you, but I will think your decision is stunningly stupid. Snottygobble 02:24, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Maru has posted this on his user page; posting here as a courtesy. Snottygobble 02:16, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Needless to say, I strongly disagree with this block. I don't particularly mind you blocking the Rhwawn account, since it was originally for the Board election, and I don't expect to need it again, but blocking my main account for semi-automated disambiguating and de-selflinking edits really cooks my chestnuts. Was I ban avading? Under a strict interpretation, I suppose so. A process wonk could surely argue that this is grounds for a few days or weeks banned, but an indef ban? Look at my edits. THey were good edits. We're supposed to judge by results, not mindlessly follow process; that's what IAR is all about, and we keep it around for a reason. Does de-sysoping, an indef blocking (with an apparent intention of making it truly indefinite and infinite) truly seem proportional to my actual offenses? I've contributed so much good work to Misplaced Pages, and so little bad work; doesn't that merit any consideration when I violate your interpretation of policy in my haste to actually get something done? I'd reply on AN/I, but there seems to be some technical problem. --maru (talk) contribs 02:14, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, we're having him follow procedure now, and watching him. If he is really being stupid, that's all there is to it. If he's actually being smart and someone else is being stupid, we'll find that out quickly enough too. Kim Bruning 02:34, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Zscout has unblocked citing "reducing duration to time served". That's a strange basis, considering the block was for running an unauthorised bot, and Maru spent his "time served" running his unauthorised bot through a sock. Honestly, I find this decision absolutely mind-bogglingly incomprehensible. Snottygobble 02:37, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't really want to be making any more suggestions of my own here but some history might be useful. See Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive124#User:Marudubshinki running unauthorized robots.

1. He ran a bot account, Bot-maru (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), which was blocked as an unauthorized bot, and because it was not assisted and was making mistakes. Rather than go to WP:BRFA, he started running the bot on his main account.
2. He was blocked again because the bot was making mistakes, with the understanding that he could unblock himself if he stopped running the bot. He unblocked himself, and started running the bot again.
3. The bot was deleting pages, using Maru's sysop bit. Quoting Essjay, This is greatly concerning, as the use of bots with admin privs is opposed very strongly on en.wiki (with the possible exception of Curps, though his is not without it's critics, and may or may not still be running) and by the Foundation (an adminbot on another wiki was desysopped by Anthere not too long ago).
4. He was blocked again with instructions not to unblock himself. He did anyway, and started running the bot again.
5. He was blocked a third time and told to stop running the bot. Rather than accept responsibility and seek bot approval at WP:BRFA, he started running the bot on a second account, thereby violating both bot policy and policy against using socks to edit while blocked.

I'll let the rest of you make the decisions. I wonder whether you really expect he will stop running the bot this time, or you just don't care; and I wonder how long he will run it in assisted mode before he turns it loose again; and I wonder if he will lend it his own sysop functions again. But it's not really in my hands. Thatcher131 (talk) 03:20, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

If he runs the bot again without requesting approval first, we will take him out for some ParkingLotTherapy. Basically we're giving him a bit of a last chance, but watching him carefully. We'll soon see if he behaves or not. :-) Kim Bruning 02:44, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I've just come back here after an hour off-line and see the sh*t has hit the fan. I'm in total agreement with Snottygobble - I'd thought that his last block was his last chance. Maru must have been awfully close to being de-sysopped after he was exposed for unblocking himself to continue using an unauthorised admin-bot. We now find he was using a sock in order to to evade the block. I'd assumed good faith in unblocking him but clearly that was misguided - Maru was cheating his block all along. He is a loose cannon and has shown ongoing behaviour unbecoming of an administrator. -- I@n 02:57, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree that he should be de-sysoped but not blocked because he makes lots of useful articles. ⇒ JarlaxleArtemis 04:11, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Based only on the information presented here (having not yet done the research myself) I'd support the dead-minning. - brenneman 04:21, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think the death penalty is the answer here. --Cyde Weys 05:20, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Maybe take this to a RFC, and/or the ArbCom? If I was an admin, I wouldn't have bots running until I got them authorised.

Marudubshinki (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has made good edits, as JarlaxleArtemis said, so I don't think an indefinite block is warranted. --TheM62Manchester 08:45, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I would support a de-adminship (not an indef block, too harsh) based on evidence presented here too. - Mailer Diablo 08:58, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Wouldn't an RFC or ArbCom be a better solution? --TheM62Manchester 09:00, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Sure, just that we'll need someone willing to do the filing process. - Mailer Diablo 13:43, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

A lot of people seem to be saying that an indef block is too harsh. But I haven't heard anyone actually propose an indef block, so I'm not sure who you're arguing against. I hope you people don't think my reinstatement of I@n's block was intended to be a final solution; as I stated on Maru's talk page, I reinstated the block "while we thrash out the implications of you running unauthorised bot edits through an alternative account created to avoid an indefinite block applied for running unauthorised bot edits".

For the record, I also do not think Maru should be blocked indefinitely. But I am firmly opposed to him retaining his sysop flag. Snottygobble 09:07, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Indef block isn't appropriate given his good contributions, but unless someone is disputing the facts as laid out above, he has clearly abused the admin tools, and thus should not retain them. Just remove the problem and allow the good contributions. Then block later if it becomes becessary. If consensus here isn't enough for a steward to go on to desysop, send it to arbcom. - Taxman 11:39, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Let's not rush to any unnecessarily hasty decisions. This isn't dangerous. This isn't an emergency. Bring the case to the ArbComm. De-adminship in non-cut-and-dry situations (i.e. repeatedly unblocking self or deleting the main page) is the role of the ArbComm. He is unblocked. Don't reblock him, please. If you think it's serious enough, bring the case to the Committee. No vigilante justice, thank you very much. Sam Korn 12:32, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Concur. ArbCom is appropriate if someone wants to do it. If there are further problems, I'll do it myself. Extra chances are good for minor infractions, but at a certain point we have to assert firmly that admins are as bound by policy as everyone else. -- SCZenz 14:58, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I think we should take you up on that. If you're willing to draw up the formalities for ArbCom, let it go there. The alternative is going to be widespread support for a steward taking action anyway. The current situation is clearly not satisfactory, per Snottygobble and others. Metamagician3000 07:07, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I said I'd do that if there are further problems. Have there been further problems? If not, I need to think and look a little more (and maybe talk to Maru a bit) before initiating a case personally; once started, they're hard to unstart. But if there is a case started by someone else, I'll certainly fill in what I know and let the arbitrators decide. -- SCZenz 03:19, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

My bad. You did indeed say that. Metamagician3000 07:08, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Date warring

I am somewhat bothered by the way that SuperJumbo (talk · contribs) seems to have unilaterally decided to reformat dates. As I understand it, there is a longstanding semi-formal agreement that in articles dealing with things outside of the English-speaking world, we don't particularly favor U.S. or Commonwealth style on dates; instead, we wikify and let the software format it to the users' preferences. Hence, edits like these (, ) are at least mildly annoying. Tazmaniacs (talk · contribs) reversion of these (, ) was, of course, almost inevitable; but what I really don't like is what comes next: Superjumbo using popups ( ) to revert. The navigation tools are not intended as utilities for edit warring. - Jmabel | Talk 05:02, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I think Jmabel to be, on the whole, correct (the issue ought, IMHO, for unwikified dates, to be treated as is AE/BE by the MoS, which treatment WP:DATE seems to suggest), but if I'm not crazy almost all of the dates over which edit-warring has occurred here are wikified, such that, for registered users (who necessarily, IIRC, make a date preference election), that which displays will not be affected; aren't most of these edits purposeless? Joe 05:15, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

• This is a non–issue, I'm afraid. Go to your "my preferences" and change your dating format preference from "No preference" (or "15 January 2000") to "January 15, 2000", and all dates that he "re-formatted" will appear as you have selected. His changing of these dates is pointless as any one user can select preference for one of these methods over the other. That's why this preference selection was created. — CRAZY`(lN)`SANE 05:19, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

It would be a non-issue if and only if people like SuperJumbo didn't unilaterally change dates to match their personal preference. The "preference selection" was designed to prevent such changes by rendering them pointless. No one thought anyone would be so silly as to go on a jihad to convert dates to his "preferred preference" just in order to have non-logged in users see them, but obviously we didn't reckon on how bellicose people can be in insisting you adopt their whims as default. But that is the argument he offered when I objected to him converting all articles relating to Monaco to day-month-year. - Nunh-huh 06:00, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand why it matters. It might be pointless for him to do this, but why would anyone go to the trouble of reverting it? He has wikified so that it will appear as per whatever preference users have adopted. If people don't have accounts or haven't logged in, I don't think they'll suffer greatly if the date appears the way he prefers in the articles he's edited. Or am I missing something here? Metamagician3000 07:05, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

You're missing the fact that it's fundamentally disrespectful to insist on having one's own way in what is supposed to be a cooperative or at least collegial editing environment. When you change "color" to "colour" or "haemophilia" to "hemophilia", it annoys people because you are insisting "their" way is wrong and your way is right. It's the same with dates. If it doesn't, or shouldn't, matter, then it shouldn't be changed. You should have the decency to leave de minimus matters alone, and respect other's choices, rather than privileging your own. If you don't, you encourage edit wars, ill-feeling, and distract from the business of writing an encyclopedia. - Nunh-huh 07:23, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I understand all that, I guess. I still don't understand why it matters so much, given what the outcome actually is for users of the encyclopedia. If someone changed the way I had the dates (but wikified them properly) I would smile at their relatively harmless idiosyncracy rather than thinking this was terribly important or needed to be dealt with by admins. It seems that any disruption is de minimus. Oh well, maybe another admin will take a greater interest in it. Metamagician3000 08:11, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

SuperJimbo wikified the dates so that date preferences are enabled. Tazmaniac's blind reversion de-wikified the dates. I agree we shouldn't edit war over which date style is the default, but all dates should have date preferences enabled when possible. —Quarl 2006-08-18 08:16Z

Eh, no SuperJimbo changed, for example, ], ] (November 11, 1942) to ] ] (11 November 1942) — both formats are valid and display dates as per the user preferences. It was a pointless edit. Thanks/wangi 08:32, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I've reverted a good number of his changes and warned him that if he does this again he will be blocked. We have a policy in place that warns against doing this for a very good reason. --Cyde Weys 13:46, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm coming in late to this discussion, but may I suggest that rather than edit warring, and reverting all of my careful work, people take a moment to read the guidelines laid down in WP:MoS? I'll thank Cyde to go and undo his reverts, and request that in future he discuss before acting against consensus.

I quote from the Manual of Style:

If the topic itself concerns a specific country, editors may choose to use the date format used in that country. This is useful even if the dates are linked, because new users and users without a Misplaced Pages account do not have any date preferences set, and so they see whatever format was typed. For topics concerning the UK, Australia, Ireland, New Zealand, most member states of the Commonwealth of Nations, and most international organizations such as the United Nations, the formatting is usually ] ] (no comma and no "th"). In the United States and Canada, it is ], ]. Elsewhere, either format is acceptable. See Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style#National varieties of English for more guidance.

Using this as a guide, I suggest that Cyde's changes to the King Edward VIII article were insufficiently considered, to be polite. --Jumbo 22:07, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, can you promise to confine yourself to topics that clearly relate to the UK, etc., and to UN agencies? Maybe you're already doing this, but that's not clear to me. You should give that undertaking and stick to it. I think that talk of blocking is overreacting as long as your activities are so confined. I still think is all a bit of storm in a teacup, but I suppose what you're doing could be irritating if it's not clearly confined to appropriate articles. Metamagician3000 22:45, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

My actions have been in accordance with the Manual of Style throughout. Jtdirl, an expert on style, and familiar with the precise history of dating conventions in Misplaced Pages, has seen fit to comment on several occasions:

• On my talk page
• On Nunh-hunh's talk page
• On the talk page for Prince Rainier III

I would appreciate it if participants in this discussion would familiarise themselves with the consensus guidelines before commenting and proffering advice. --Jumbo 23:11, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Clearly your interpretation of the MOS is at odds with others equally "expert". You have no consensus to make the changes you are making and have resisted suggestions that you actually try to build one. Why don't you just stop, and do so, instead of becoming a Wikilawyer? - Nunh-huh 23:20, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Your assertion may be clear to you, but I beg your indulgence in asking for further clarification. Who is it that offers both a dissenting view to jtdirl and shares his wealth of experience and knowledge on the subject? For my part, I act only in accordance with established policy and guidelines, and if you have a different view, I ask that you take it up with those who set the guidelines after years of diligent and detailed discussion. In particular, please do not make changes such as this recent one to Louis Mountbatten, 1st Marquess of Milford Haven. WP:MoS explicitly directs that articles on British subjects use International Dating. --Jumbo 00:19, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Pretty much everyone who's raised the issue with is every bit as qualified as jtdirl to opine on the subject. You seem to equate "agrees with me" with "is an expert". No, you are not acting within guidelines, and MoS does not "direct" British dates. - Nunh-huh 00:54, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I reject your assumption that experts are those who agree with me. This is not the case. Jtdirl and I have disagreed on other matters, but I find it hard to understand how anybody could discount his years of participation in styles and formats. His knowledge and advice are of immense value in this discussion.

Your comment about the MoS likewise turns out not to be the case when we examine the relevant section:

If the topic itself concerns a specific country, editors may choose to use the date format used in that country. This is useful even if the dates are linked, because new users and users without a Misplaced Pages account do not have any date preferences set, and so they see whatever format was typed. For topics concerning the UK, Australia, Ireland, New Zealand, most member states of the Commonwealth of Nations, and most international organizations such as the United Nations, the formatting is usually ] ] (no comma and no "th"). In the United States and Canada, it is ], ]. Elsewhere, either format is acceptable. See Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style#National varieties of English for more guidance.

In view ofthe above, may I ask you again why you are choosing to insert American format dates into an explicitly British article? And how many times need I quote the MoS before you accept that this document means what it says? You are not being helpful in your contributions. --01:07, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, let's see. If you quote the same thing 1,000 times, and I've told you I've disagreed with your interpretation of it, why would your repetition persuade me that your interpretation of it is correct. The simple fact is that the last time there were rampant date jihadists such as yourself, the compromise that allowed productive editing to resume was to link dates and invoke preferences rather than having people unilaterally change them. You now want to nullify that compromise. That's not a good way to procede. - Nunh-huh 01:59, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your contributions so far, insomuch as they reveal your position. I am asking you to correct your edits to Louis Mountbatten, 1st Marquess of Milford Haven, as WP:MoS explicitly directs that articles on British subjects use International Dating. --Jumbo 02:49, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I've been asking you to stop your jihad, inasmuch as it's not authorized by any policy, and is antithetically opposed to the basic compromise on dates. So apparently asking isn't enough. - Nunh-huh 03:45, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

This issue erupted in a major edit war some time ago. We agreed on a simple solution.

• Set preferences to choose whether one wanted to read International Dating dd/mm/yyyy or American Dating mm/dd/yyyy.

However as one has to have a WP account to set preferences, it was also agreed to apply another two simple rules:

• If a country uses either ID or AD predominantly, articles should be written in it.
• Where they don't, go by the initial choice made by the initial editor.

That was placed in the MoS through the giving of some examples of countries that use ID. The list in the MoS was never intended to be the only countries. If it was then users of ID would never have agreed to the compromise. It was always intended to be an example.

So when anyone of us edits and American article we always use American Dating (in fact for many international editors of WP it is probably the only time in their lives when they ever write dates in the month/day format as most of the planet use day/month, hence its name, International Dating). I have got into edit wars on American pages stopping users from replacing American Dating on American pages with International Dating.

The same is also true. All SuperJumbo has been doing is applying that rule. He has not been blanket changing dates. He has been

• ensuring that dates on British topics all follow ID rather than, as is the case a lot of the time, being a mishmash of both;
• fixing other articles so that all the date structures are the same, whether ID or AD;
• ensuring that date usage on WP reflects national usage in the country being written about. Many of the articles he has been working on lately have been French ones. France does not use American Dating, and it is as offensive for French people to have their articles written in American Dating (and spelling) as it is for Americans to have their articles written in International Dating and International English.

Cyde, as usual, bungled in to the process with his usual sledgehammer approach and blanket reverted SuperJumbo's corrections, insisting that

• a British topic like Edward VIII of the United Kingdom be a mishmash of International and American Dating, with sometimes both formats used in the one sentence
• an Irish topic like Bono be in American Dating even though Ireland does not use American Dating and Irish users on WP get extremely pissed off when Americans on WP keep converting articles to follow American Dating.

Rather than accuse Cyde of vandalism for forcing messes onto articles all over the place, perhaps the most charitable thing that could be said was that, as he does sometimes, he screwed up. International Dating users are however at this stage getting a bit fed up with some (and it is only a small number) of American users consistently trying to force a format of dating on country articles where that country never uses AD. ID users have been more than willing to ensure that countries that use AD have AD in them, and to revert any changes from AD. It would be nice if AD users showed the same willingness to accept that, as was the agreement that stopped the last major edit war on dating, some countries use ID, some AD and the articles on topics from each country should reflect usage.

The reality is simple:

• the US uses AD.
• Most of the Commonwealth of Nations uses ID.
• Most of Europe uses ID.

I don't know what various countries in South America and Africa use.

Maybe we should simply compile a list of countries and set down explicitly what dating should be used for each. We could establish a project on dates. That might be the solution. But in the meantime, SuperJumbo is perfectly correct to adjust European topics to ID, American topics to AD, and where a mishmash occurs in articles to fix it. FearÉIREANN\ 00:41, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Two things:

1. The MoS guideline as it stands quite clearly refers to the English-speaking world. Elsewhere, either should be acceptable, just as articles may be in U.S. or Commonwealth English. Although countries outside the English-speaking world each have their own date preferences, we do not normally apply those. To follow that logic, we would have to give dates in Hungarian-related articles in the form 2006-8-20.
2. No one has addressed my remark about using "popups" as an edit-warring tool. - Jmabel | Talk 22:18, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Which he apparently continues to do. - Jmabel | Talk 04:59, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

The behaviour I'm seeing here by SuperJumbo is simply unacceptable. Now he's revert-warring over dates on dozens of articles using a JavaScript tool. Regardless of whether or not his date format changing is acceptable, what he's doing now clearly isn't. I would suggest someone do something to reign him in here, as my hands are tied in this issue. --Cyde Weys 19:48, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

All he is doing is applying standard dates to the relevant articles. In doing that he is my full support and the full support of many others. The fact that Jmabel refers to something he calls Commonwealth English when we are actually dealing with international dating, is indicative of the nonsensical nature of the attacks being made on SuperJumbo. He is simply applying what we all do, and all will continue to do, applying International Dating to topics in areas where it is relevant, and applying American Dating to topics where it is relevant. I have fought edit wars to stop ID users from changing articles on American topics to ID dating and International English. American users deserve the respect of users in terms of their choice of language. I and others will continue to do similarly with ID articles out of respect for people in other countries who use ID and IE and who take offence when American language, spelling and dating is forced onto topics about countries that never ever use AD and AE. Superjumbo has asked opinions and consulted. Those who are attacking him rarely have. Cyde, bizarrely, reverted the correct usage of ID and IE on an article about an British king, imposing American dating onto the article. And he sought to force an article about an Irish rock band to keep American dating. It was ridiculous. If his hands are tied on the issue, it is about time. FearÉIREANN\ 20:16, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Taeguk Warrior

Taeguk Warrior (talk · contribs) refuses to stop removing warnings and similar notices from his page. He was recently blocked for a week due to this behavior, and resumed it immediately upon "release". I've blocked him for another week in order to give us time to discuss what should be done. I'm all in favor of blocking for at least a month, if not longer. Taeguk Warrior is constantly revert-warring on many different articles in addition to his own user talk page . He has also gotten into rows over whether or not an image is tagged properly, and has removed dispute tags on several images: , , , , and there are others. So, what say ye? ···日本穣 07:04, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Anyone else want to put in a thought on this one? ···日本穣 19:30, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I added a case for his block evasion down below--I didn't see this section until just now. Perhaps that should be moved here? —LactoseTI 19:55, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I've done so. Your post from below has been moved directly below this one. ···日本穣 20:31, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

User continuously skirts blocks with large block of IP's.

Here ], he seems to imply that a comment was left by him here ]. That IP (71.124.113.216) is from a hostname ending with ".chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net." Here again ] he mentions he forgot to sign in and had the IP 71.124.122.59, another from the same block.

He has been blocked repeatedly for blanking his talk page, removing PUI tags/vandalism from pictures he uploaded, etc. (now on his second 1 week block). The longest blocks were the last two consecutive week long ones which he seems to have avoided by editing from his IP directly:

• 02:43, August 18, 2006 1 week
• 01:10, August 11, 2006 1 week

He seems to have skirted his first one week block using the ip 71.124.34.4 (from the "chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net" pool, contributions here ], where he amassed first a 24 hour and then a 48 block. Started editing on August 12, 2006 from this IP, one day into his first 1 week block, diving right into the same Masutatsu Oyama article, removing PUI tags /from the images uploaded by Taeguk Warrior here ], ], ], ], ], ], etc. (there are many).

Here ] he copied an unusually worded warning onto my talk page from Taeguk Warrior's user page here ].

When this IP was blocked for 48 hours, only a short time after coming off a 24 hour block, a couple of edits from 74.64.70.159 contributions here ] (outside of the pool) continued his reverts on Masutatsu Oyama.

After a day or so, edits started coming in from 71.124.36.224 contributions here ], again in the "chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net" pool to the same Masutatsu Oyama article. They continued edits on a few articles frequented by Taeguk Warrior, including one created by him here ]. Here ], his edit summary refers to me specifically (saying that since he added a free picture it must make me angry (I had cleaned up the article significantly and tagged some unfree images he uploaded).

At this point his week long block expired and he promptly found himself under another 1 week block for doing the same thing (removing tags, blanking his user page--unknowingly I may have fanned the flames a bit, my vandal script noticed him making the same changes I had tagged as vandalism. He reverted my warnings as well as those from administrators/others.

Now that he's on his second week-long block, he has started editing from 72.69.105.138 contributions here ], again in the chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net pool. Again, he is reverting/removing bits of content from Masutatsu Oyama, though it's relatively minor compared to what he was doing before.

At first I didn't notice they were all from the same pool, but not only do they have blatantly the same edit patterns. I put it together when I realized the only time these IP's show up is when the main account is blocked, and happened to see his post on the Masuyama talk page where he seemed to indicate that he was in the same pool. There are other edits in other articles, but the Masuyama article illustrates it particularly well since there are very few editors involved with it (and I wanted to keep this as brief as possible).

I thought he'd cool down a bit and make some valuable contributions (he has the capability--he added to several articles with some nice pictures). It seems, though, that he might not be cooling down at all--perhaps because he just avoids the block and keeps editing. It's unfortunate because he's a relatively new user and just seems to be escalating the bad edits vs. the good ones. I had originally thought to request semi-protection for the Masuyama page, though it seems kind of unnecessary since he does seem to blank/revert less when he's blocked. Of course, I'm discouraged when my edits are undone and he's uncivil--namecalling and the like, but I'll stick around. I'd just avoid the articles he's editing, but he seems now to want to "follow me around," putting my contribution link on his user page (originally under a list of stalkers, now by itself). Sometimes he's particularly viscious, tagging good faith efforts as "vandalism" to confuse the issue. If anyone has some suggestions, I'm all ears. —LactoseTI 06:23, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Abuse of admin powers

User:Caltrop blocked me for breaking the 3R rule during a dispute he was having with me at T-4 Euthanasia Program. Possibly I was in breach of 3R (I wasn't counting), but if I was, so was he. Furthermore, I had explained my reversion at the Talk page, to which he replied only with juvenile and ad hominem comments and made no attempt to engage with the issue. Finally I consider it most inappropriate for an admin to block an editor in a dispute to which they themselves are a party, and indeed largely initiated. I request that Caltrop be formally warned not to abuse his admin powers in this way. This is the first time in three years of editing that I have had occasion to complain about an admin. Adam 15:00, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it was a mistake on his part and you were unblocked because of it - but - is highly innapropriate for you to say after you were unblocked. I would suggest that you remove that, as it serves no purpose other than to taunt him and rub the issue in his face (not to mention the header, which in itself is extremely incivil). Thank you. Cowman109 15:07, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I dare say. I have removed it. I don't deny I am very angry at this kind of stupid behaviour at an article on such a topic. Adam 15:18, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. It might be a good idea to ask for third opinions from the village pump if you need help with the issues on that page. Cowman109 15:49, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I have no need for advice on the article itself. It's a lousy article and I intend rewriting it. What I needed help with was an abuse of admin powers. Since Caltrop has apologised I won't pursue this matter, but I still think he should not be an admin. Adam 01:14, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I think advice would be welcome on this article. There are a lot of strong feelings here, a lot of "It must be my way or no way." I have asked for a RfC and welcome some external opinions at T-4 Euthanasia Program. Ifnord 18:05, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Review of block requested

MONGO suddenly blocked a user with no apparent bad edits, indefinitely, and blocked his user page. The user is User:Weevlos. His contribs. He apparently suspects that this user spammed admins (but there is no apparent proof of this), and that page of template information was actually on dozens of pages all over Misplaced Pages during MONGO's conflict with an outside website. MONGO also protected this user's talk page so that he could not request a review, seen here. Would someone be willing to review this? This user appears to have done nothing to warrant this. Thank you. - —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.172.234.92 (talk • contribs) 2006-08-18T13:16:36 (UTC)

Having examined a couple of the users edits, I see behaviour warranting a block. Not having examined all the edits, I will trust MONGO over an anon IP that the indefinite block was appropriate. -- JamesTeterenko 20:27, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

The last edit was pretty much libel, so MONGO was right to block for it. User:Zscout370 21:34, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

FWIW, the last edit, IMHO, was in no way libellous (at least as regards United States law), even as it may have expressed a value judgment with which some of us might disagree; this doesn't, of course, speak to the broader issue, but it is useful for us to take care that we not use libel too broadly, if only because, in the context of mainspace, such broad use sometimes serves unnecessarily to temper contributions... Joe 22:10, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

The evidence is at User:Weevlos/Compiling Evidence which MONGO deleted at 09:50, 18 August 2006 (UTC) with the reason "(same subpage used to email spam hndreds of admins a month ago)". Only another admin can see what it says. MONGO probably had a very good reason to react the way he did after reading that page. --  Netsnipe    21:47, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

But other than that single page (I'll take your word that it existed and wasn't just a typical rfc/rfar note-taking page), what else makes for a permanent ban based on the judgement of a single admin? I looked at the last two months of contribs, and they all seemed like good reliable edits - the majority of which are in article space, aren't vandalism, look sourced, etc. Based on what I can see as a non-admin, a permanent ban of a good editor based on one user sub-page seems way overblown. SchmuckyTheCat 22:21, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Don't worry Schmucky...all the encyclopedia dramatica trolls can always pull it from their pages at their website and use it once again to spam hundreds of admins about my "abuse"...interesting that you noticed.--MONGO 22:27, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Just for what it is worth, do we have any evidence or proof beyond the one off color edit on AN/I from this user that he violated any policy? rootology (T) 22:31, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I've been spammed with the content of that page repeatedly; I'm glad MONGO ferreted out who it was and I support the block. Its too bad this editor had contributed productively in the past, but unfortunately, he let himself get so involved in one article that he went bananas. Shell 22:35, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I thought somebody else had been singled out already for sending the spam? I don't know or care why this user had the page (and I can't see the contents of deleted pages) but I don't see any evidence this person was sending the spam. SchmuckyTheCat 22:41, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

As Schmucky said, someone was previously banned for that spam. That content during the MONGO/ED fiasco was on many archived pages, on many users, even an admin's page, as seen here. Is there evidence that this user did this spamming? rootology (T) 22:43, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Both rootlogy and Schmucky are encyclopedia dramatica editors. Rootology as of late has spent most of his time wikistalking several admins and also trying to figure out other ways to harass Misplaced Pages and Wikipedians...albeit in a "gentlemanly manner". --MONGO 22:49, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

MONGO, you have made such accusations in the past. Please proove them, file an RfC, or ArbCom, or please stop harassing me. If you look at my contribs, I do nothing of the sort. rootology (T) 22:55, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Can an admin at least unprotect this person's talk page so that he can speak for himself? rootology (T) 22:55, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

People are blocked all the time...interesting that you find this situation interesting.--MONGO 23:06, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I've known this person for several years BEFORE I was ever on Misplaced Pages, from various online IT and computer science/research circles, and I had his page as someone I've known on my watchlist (same as ANI). I was amazed when I saw he was blocked, since I know this person DOESN'T do anything of the sort. What evidence/proof/policy violation did he do that warrants a one-person initiated indef ban? rootology (T) 23:09, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

He should have thought twice about his last comment and about using his userspace to post the same harassment information that was used to spam hundreds of editors, both via email and on their talk pages, as well as in the admin noticeboard areas. Tony Sidaway has also commented about your direction here at Misplaced Pages...I don't think you're fooling anyone.--MONGO 23:17, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Tony has been working with me rather civilly on a policy proposal, so I have no idea where you're going with that. As to "harassing" information on his userspace, please look at my above link--an admin had it on his user page for months, and it was on many other's pages after it was mailed by someone to a zillion people. Will an admin review how long that page has been idle before it was deleted? I'd venture that it was idle since around the time of the mass mailing. Will you please let me know what policy this user has violated, and why he cannot have his talk page unlocked so that the blocking can be reviewed? As for that last comment about Nathan in the history, I'd politely point out that in the past two weeks a lot of people have said inappropriate things about that user (I could care less why, I'm not involved), and I didn't see any mass bans over that. rootology (T) 23:23, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Ah, yes, that policy proposal to make it easier for you to get MONGO stripped of his adminship. User:Zoe|(talk) 00:54, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

As a side note, that was also the spam emailed out to many administrators about a month ago. -- Natalya 22:58, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I would encourage all of my fellow admins to ignore Rootology, he has no credibility on this issue. He is involved with the same website (Encyclopedia Dramatica) as the trolls who were spamming this subpage. So of course he's going to come to their defense, and of course it's going to be a meaningless one. --Cyde Weys 23:32, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

They have a page attacking ME on there. What on Earth are you talking about? What evidence is there that this person did the spam that he's being blocked for? rootology (T) 23:38, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to take my own advice here. La dee da dee da ... Cyde Weys 23:39, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Rootology is in no way involved with ED. As for the spam that occured a month ago, refer to this. The user that was blocked recently had nothing to do with the spamming of administrator's email acounts. Quite simply, he was blocked because MONGO doesn't like ED. Let's be honest with each other here, k? --Daisy Craft 23:49, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I'd say they have a problem with me...I must be doing something right around here.--MONGO 05:53, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Why yes, of course. Being <personal attack removed> is a desirable trait on Misplaced Pages. I have little respect for people like you who run around with the attitude "I'm right because I can ban you". No, you're still wrong. Silencing dissent doesn't suddenly make the dissenting viewpoint irrelevant, although I understand that it certainly is preferable for the cult to ignore dissent. I do have great respect for sysops like Can't Sleep, Clown Will Eat Me and Wiki Alf, because they don't throw their weight around. Rather, they work on improving the encyclopedia, and although they do deal with vandals firmly, they also treat them with civility and respect. Respect is a concept foreign to people like you, Cyde, and Kelly Martin. As long as people like you remain so full of themselves that they chuck out any semblance of respect for others, Misplaced Pages is doomed to failure. It seems that anyone who doesn't agree with the Elite is branded as a "troll" and eventually banned. Dispute resolution is one of the biggest oxymorons in this encyclopedia - dispute resolution consists of banning or censuring the user whose viewpoints are unpopular with the elite. Must... ban... anyone... who posts to Misplaced Pages Review. Must... ban... anyone... who edits Encyclopedia Dramatica. Trolls, the lot of them! Time for a nice, cold glass of Kool-Aid. --72.160.83.128 06:15, 19 August 2006 (UTC

Seriously though, you ban and threaten users for no reason than that you don't agree with what they have to say. That, my friend, is a problem. --72.160.83.128 06:27, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Concur. 85.70.5.66 08:44, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Blue ardvark...you are a troll..that is why you're banned. You have nothing to offer Misplaced Pages except disruption so troll on off.--MONGO 08:35, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Gawd, at least spell my psuedonym right. "Blu Aardvark". I am banned because the Arbitration Committee doesn't understand the meaning of the word "arbitrate". I have plenty to contribute, but really don't see the point. As I said, being elitist towards users, not offering any degree of respect to contributors, and blindly labelling people "trolls" is a damned good way to make abusive users. --72.160.83.128 09:15, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I second that. 85.70.5.66 09:40, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I guess my friend is not going to get to at least see the evidence of his alleged spamming that he was blocked for, or the policy violation he allegedly violated, as no one will answer a question for the same. rootology (T) 00:45, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

• This long ago stopped being about the issues. The only thing that matters anymore is the personalities involved in the discussion. SchmuckyTheCat 07:48, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Ceula sockpuppet & spam

Users User:Ceula, User:LeonardLorch, User:Edytore, User:199.88.72.4, and User:199.88.67.33 appear to be sockpuppets, switching accounts to avoid being blocked for spamming while continuing to try to include promotional information both as links and as content. Additionally, some of them have been editing others' comments about this behaviour of theirs. Most of this has been happening in Dental_floss. 01:42, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

A request for checkuser was declined with the comment "obvious". Should this be moved to WP:SSP or is it fine here? 03:39, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Another Zeq copyvio

I know that Misplaced Pages is meant to be a rightwing alternative to Britannica but lifting an entire article (word for word) from the Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs is a bit too much, isn't it? Especially with this edit summary: "Iranian involvement in Lebanon (please explain in talk what is the problem. I took specila care to write it as NPOV as I can but I am willing to listen to any issue.)" --Part of the thesis 01:56, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

• Confirmed by CopyScape. Deleted. User:Zscout370 02:02, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Loged on RfAr/Zeq#Log of blocks and bans; see also, my RfAr/Request for clarification. El_C 18:12, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

CAT:CSD backlog

Just so you know, there's a rather large backlog over at CAT:CSD. --Mr. Lefty _{Talk to me!} 03:04, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

50 pages seems pretty normal... I don't do images but there's just one page right? Seems less than usual. Am I missing something? --W.marsh 04:43, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

For CSD, a large backlog is ~250+. See the category tracker. Dragons flight 03:28, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, it was fairly large earlier. Of course, I wouldn't know exactly what a "large backlog" was. --Mr. Lefty _{Talk to me!} 04:15, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I think Mr. Lefty was right to bring it up. A backlog of 50 can be a backlog of 100 in no time, given how much garbage shows up and how well our volunteers tag the worst of it and how too few admins are doing new pages patrol at any time to deal with the influx. We should always get warnings here when the backlog hits 50, IMO. Geogre 12:17, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Then like 90-99% of the threads on this board would be backlog warnings :-) --W.marsh 13:14, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Altering a user's signature

Here User:Hagiographer changed my signature to that of another user User:Pura Paja. Can an admin please do something to discourage him? SqueakBox 03:33, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

User Jayjg

The recent edits of Jayjg (talk · contribs) need to be looked at. Today, he's really on a POV tear with regard to Israel-related articles. All these edits are dated today, August 18th.

• Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America - removed criticism of CAMERA by Nuclear Spin.
• Honest Reporting - removed links to criticism and to related organizations.
• International Academic Friends of Israel - removed links to related organizations
• Chris McGreal - changed "several pro-Israel media watchdog organizations" to "several media watchdog organizations". (Jayjg puts substantial and ongoing effort into making McGreal look bad; see his edits.)
• Engage (organization) - removed "See also" links to similar organizations

The overall effect of these edits is to make various controversial pro-Israel organizations appear as neutral in Misplaced Pages. There really isn't much doubt that these organizations are pro-Israel; even the Israeli media admit it, and appropriate cites are in the articles, although it may be necessary to go back in the article history to find them after Jayjg's deletions.

Jayjg (and some others) have previously removed material that makes Israel looks bad when it wasn't properly cited. I accept that. But now he's escalated to removing material that is properly cited. That's a serious POV issue.

Jayjg has previously refused communication (see deletion of message from talk page ) and refused informal mediation.(Misplaced Pages:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2006-08-03_Mosaic:_World_News_from_the_Middle_East) Jayjg is also involved in the messy arbitration proceeding (Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Israeli apartheid), but that's in the voting phase and voting is tending towards an amnesty, so we can't add these actions to it. So I'd like to ask for a 24-hour block on Jayjg, permission to revert the above listed changes, and formal mediation. Thanks. --John Nagle 03:49, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I think it should be obvious to anyone who looks at these instances that they are nothing more than content disputes. I really can't see how John Nagle could think it is appropriate to block someone merely for disagreeing with him on a few articles. There is nothing that Jayjg did that is a clear violation of policy, or even an abstract violation of policy for that matter.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 04:50, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

This is a straightforward content dispute. There are no policy violations and if John wants formal mediation, this isn't the place to request it. John, when I last checked out some of these pages, I recall you were engaged in an attempt to draw links between people and groups that struck me as original research. I don't know whether that continues, but looking briefly at some of Jay's edits, that may have been what he was resisting. SlimVirgin 06:21, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it's a content dispute, but it's here because Jayjg is an admin and involved in an ArbComm proceeding. As part of the current arbitration, we currently have the proposed remedy, with six ArbComm votes, Humus sapiens, ChrisO, Kim van der Linde, SlimVirgin, and Jayjg are reminded to use mediation and other dispute resolution procedures sooner when conflicts occur. (Ref: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Israeli apartheid/Proposed decision). I'd appreciate it if an admin who does not normally edit on Israel issues would look at this. Meanwhile, I'm trying to fix some of Jayjg's edits, dealing with his objections by using the "cited to death" style we now have to use in such articles and using cited direct quotes whenever possible. --John Nagle 17:45, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Three editors have now commented, and agree that this is an inappropriate complaint, because it's a regular content dispute. If you want mediation, by all means request it. Bear in mind, too, that edits can violate OR or be otherwise inappropriate even when cited. SlimVirgin 17:51, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I looked at the edits; to my mind Jayjg's edits improved the quality and neutrality of the articles. There's nothing to see here, move along please... Just zis Guy you know? 17:38, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

• There's nothing here that calls even remotely for a block or anything resembling one. This is what article talk pages and article RFCs are for. Asking for a block for content disputes such as this demonstrates a misunderstanding of how consensus is achieved on Misplaced Pages. --jpgordon 17:55, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

• John Nagle, the specific arbitration page, as well as 3rd opinion, RfC, and Mediation are that-a-way. El_C 18:39, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

John, it seems more reasonable to block you for consistent conspiracy-mongering and violations of WP:NOR, WP:NPOV, and WP:RS. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a muck-racking magazine, and you are supposed to be a neutral editor, not a crusading journalist. And by the way, your distortions about my actions match your consistent distortions in articles themselves. I haven't "refused communication"; as my Talk: page makes clear, if you want to discuss article content, do it on the related article content pages. Article content discussions are not personal communications. Also, I didn't refuse mediation, I just refused it from the self-appointed "Mediation Cabal" (which, in my experience, is singularly incompetent), and suggested you approach the Mediation Committee instead. Jayjg 02:09, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

User:Displaced Brit

I have blocked Displaced Brit (talk · contribs) for three hours for disruption after a series of events over the past few days have escalated to the point that I felt a blocking was warranted. Displaced Brit and User:CFIF got involved in an arguement over an AfD, and both users, I feel at least somewhat violated WP:Civil. I left polite messages on both users' talk pages, and CFIF apologized to D.B. D.B. wanted further apologies, but was asked to let the matter drop by more than one admin. After days of sniping at CFIF, tonight he nominated a list for deletion which clearly CFIF worked on extensively, and the reasons for the nomination appear flimsy at best. I have blocked this user for three hours for disruption, and left a message on his talk page. DB has left a note on his page stating I'm in league with CFIF and that I've abused my powers. I invite review, as I feel it's clear I've been neutral throughout this matter; I left numerous notes for CFIF warning him to back off and assume good faith, and left various friendly warning notes for D.B. (see associated talk pages user talk:Displaced Brit, user talk:CFIF for details).--Firsfron of Ronchester 04:58, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

• I feel that User:CFIF has a history of abusive behaviour, branding those who he disagrees with as sockpuppets, stalkers, uncivil, etc. He then gets various administrators involved in his attack campaign, all whilst playing the victim. It seems almost if this user has a great parinoia, which is leading to his/her track record of jumping to conclusions and accusing people in deletion votes of bad behaviour in order to attempt to skew the vote in favour of his position. This user represents some of the worst of Misplaced Pages, acting as if it was a clique and he/she is the arbiter of who can join. It also should be noted that this user desires to be an administrator, something which if it was to occur would most likely cause more harm than good. I also feel that User:Firsfron is not an impartial arbiter in this matter and his behaviour should also be looked into. Displaced Brit 16:26, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm unblocking User:Panairjdde

I've been exchanging email with this user (whom you may remember I originally blocked), & he has admitted that he behaved badly & asked to be unblocked. In his own words:

Exactly. Just to be more clear, I'll rewrite those points:

1) I agree that my way of "promoting" my POV on the redundant AD issue was not correct, and against WP rules

2) I agree that my behaviour regarding the sockpuppets issue was uncorrect, and against WP rules

3) I shall not behave again as in 1 and 2, and abide to WP rules, avoiding any disruption

The whole point of blocking a user is not to punish, but to attempt to get that user to stop the troublesome behavior. Panairjdde has convinced me that he will stop being disruptive, so I'm unblocking his account. Further -- & not least importantly -- he has been blocked from Misplaced Pages for far longer than his original misdeed -- being disruptive -- called for.

Note: He has indicated to me that his original username was marred by a typo when he created it, so he may use another account (Panarjedde) instead. I have also unblocked that account for that reason.

If you have any questions or concerns about my act, please contact me offline. Until this recent event, he has always seemed to me a constructive member of the project. I would like to give Panairjdde a chance at a clean start. -- llywrch 05:43, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Not an admin here, and haven't looked in depth at this. However if what the user states above with his acknowledgement of misdeeds and promise to avoid such in the future is sincere, I say unblock and let him roam wiki and become a great asset. To repeat my disclaimer though, if there are other things that are the root of the problems, ignore my comment. Arkon 18:13, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Seems reasonable to me to unblock him if he's agreed to learn from what happened and not to repeat it. --Guinnog 11:01, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Blocked for following policy, no discussion from the blocking admin

Administrator User:William M. Connolley blocked me last week for following WP:BLP. I was removing poorly sourced material from a biography of a living person and was blocked for it even though WP:BLP states such removals are exempt from 3RR. I did make some mistakes, but I thought it unfair for Connolley to just block me without word from him to discuss it first. He also did not notify me of the block until an hour after the block. --HResearcher 06:05, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

HR, did you declare in advance that you were reverting under the BLP provision (did you wave your white BLP flag, in other words?), and was the material negative and arguably defamatory? A link would help. This is a new policy so there are bound to be some teething troubles. SlimVirgin 07:29, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I found it and see it's been deleted. I can read the article but I can't view diffs once it's deleted, so I can't tell what the particular edit was (and if it was perhaps defamatory, please don't repeat it here). I can see in general that it had to do with using Usenet as a source. That would depend whether it was negative material, whether it was written by the subject, and so on. Generally, we don't use Usenet as a source (see WP:V, but that wouldn't necessarily allow you to revert under BLP. SlimVirgin 07:37, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the response SlimVirgin. The article was deleted then recreated, so the diff's are unavailable. I'm assuming this was done to prevent legal problems, as now there's no evidence remaining. Note that the new version that was "recreated" was drastically cleaned up and then protected. Generally, and others agree on this including a comment from Fred Bauder about one of the editors, the page was being composed and used as an attack page by a couple of users. One of the users was the one who reported my "violation" of 3RR. I did wave the white flag, but was ignored. Blocked without discussion from the admin, and then a notice I'd been blocked an hour later. Instead I got a note from the admin saying that BPL "isn't a get out of jail free card". If William Connolly would have said something to me first, at least I would have had a chance to understand what I was doing wrong because I thought I was helping Misplaced Pages by removing poorly sourced claims. I did make a few mistakes by removing things that were sourced and I restored those before I was blocked, but one of the users using the page as an attack page used my deletion/restoration against my instead of assuming good faith. --HResearcher 08:02, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

A pedantic point I know, but the deletion does not mean there is no evidence remaining, it means the evidence is restricted to admins. Otherwise you are right: the patern for WP:BLP / WP:OFFICE deletions is that the article is deleted, a stub created, and then new content may or may not be added with thorough sourcing, depending on the nature of the complaint and indeed the complainant. WP:3RR is pretty much automatic, so it's understandable if someone missed the BLP flag. Did you add {{unblock}} to your Talk page? I'm guessing it would have been sorted quite quickly, and you clearly understand why this BLP a particular problem and people tend to err on the side of caution. Never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by a simple cock-up. William is not the sort of guy to go around blocking at random. Just zis Guy you know? 16:03, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

The Inquirer and User:Dionyseus

Lately, User:Dionyseus has been removing information from The Inquirer that is necessary to make the article NPOV and keeps removing it after his changes have been reverted. This kind of disruptive POV-pushing is unacceptable.

He has a long history of adding malicious defamation to the article (e.g. among others) and of trying to paint The Inquirer in the most negative light possible. In the past, he once re-added unsourced information that was removed and made defamatory false accusations of vandalism against the person who removed the unsourced information .

His agenda needs to stop. Furthermore, I am thinking about contacting Jimbo or Danny and requesting WP:OFFICE protection of The Inquirer. Note that the Inquirer's founder has complained in the past about the libel being committed by Dionyseus . jgp _C 06:06, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Now, he's removing legitimate warnings from his talk page, and provided an abusive edit summary . I also find it very hypocritical that in the past, he has responded to any criticism of him by citing WP:AGF (e.g. ), but when he gets a deserved NPOV warning on his talk page, he immediately accuses me of bad faith. jgp _C 06:53, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

That sentence was completely unencyclopedic. When he "re-added" the sentence, he did not simply re-add it, he changed it to be encyclopedic, an attempt to make it seem as if I had removed an encyclopedic sentence. Compare the sentence I removed: ], with his "re-add": . His new version is completely fine, but there was no need to call it a "re-add", and there was no need to claim that I violated NPOV. Dionyseus 07:03, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

His warning on my userpage is completely unwarranted and I will continue to remove them. Dionyseus 07:03, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

It is not for you to decide whether or not the warnings are legitimate. You have now violated WP:3RR, and you have been reported. jgp _C 07:13, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Jgp's unwarranted warning on my talk page has been removed by administrator Alex_Bakharev. Dionyseus 08:05, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

For the record, before removing the warnings, Alex restored the warnings twice and there was much discussion over the issue. But since that has been resolved, I'll withdraw this request for protection. jgp _C 08:12, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

May I suggest removing the 3RR report too, it seems to be perpetuating an issue that has now been resolved. Viridae 08:21, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Perceived personal attacks by MONGO toward me.

Hello, would anyone be willing to review this? I have twice removed this personal attack, and MONGO has twice now put it back in place, despite my repeatedly asking him to either proove this or simply leave me alone and stop saying it. Often when I post now on various sections in the Misplaced Pages namespace he appears, and begins saying things like this. To me this is a personal attack, as I am not Wikistalking any admin, and any effort of my asking him to demonstrate this is simply met by "stop doing it". If I knew what exactly I was doing I'd be happy to stop that entailed wikistalking a given admin (which I'm not). MONGO also left a message on my talk page, notifying me I will be blocked if I "alter" his comments.

Never alter my comments...you will be blocked from editing if this happens one more time.--MONGO 06:02, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I am reposting this here as there is no policy against reposting comments in this fashion. I feel the comments he has twice restored are a violation of WP:NPA, because he keeps doing it, but when asked to demonstrate what I'm doing that he considers wikistalking, he never will. Again, if another admin could review this--I really would rather be free to edit the encyclopedia without having MONGO staring over my shoulder, accusing me of shadow policy violations that apparently cannot be explained to me for some reason. Please review my contributions. If I'm apparently wikistalking someone, I cannot see it. I would also appreciate some clarification from other admins if it is against policy to remove messages or content of this nature. I am basing my removal on WP:NPA and Misplaced Pages:Remove personal attacks.

Tony Sidaway and other admins I have seen routinely make use of this, to remove comments that they themselves feel are of an attacking nature, and I feel I was within my bounds to do so. I am completely perplexed by this, as I've been collegially working with other admins, Tony included, on a policy proposal over the past week (and Tony is one of the ones he accused me of wikistalking on the talk page of the recent Kelly Martin RfC). I am starting to feel as if it is simply retribution as I voiced support opposite to his personal wishes previously in an AfD that he was eager to see closed off. Given the conflict of interest, I ask that MONGO not edit my comments here in any fashion so that other administrators may review them. rootology (T) 06:21, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

What was the need to make criticisms of fellow admins on a third party's talk page? There are times and places to make constructive, or even moderately robust, criticisms of actions by other admins; there are other times and places where collegiality and discretion should prevail. From a quick look, I think that MONGO shows a pretty good sense of which is which. Sorry I can't help you. Metamagician3000 06:51, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Looking at my User Talk contributions, I assume you mean this comment on Samuel Blanning's page? This was during the full absurd heat of the Kelly Martin RfC. I left a completely perplexed response on the conversation to Tony Sidaway there. I had been speaking with him extensively on the RfC, and both our tempers (Tony's and mine) had gotten it appeared a bit frayed. I did not "stalk" anyone there, as Sam's talk page was on my watchlist from a previous conversation I had with him. I was talking with Aaron Brenneman here, and I noted that Cyde had successfully agitated me during the course of working on a policy proposal at WP:RECALL by summarily dismissing my ideas during normal conversation. However, if you look through the comments and talk there (the exchange in question is now in one of the archives), on that proposal, I'd been civilly and collegially working with the very admin I'd been supposedly stalking, and many others. If this isn't what you're referring to I'm a bit lost, and I still don't see where or how I am wikistalking anyone which is my big concern and the basis of MONOG's attack on me. I should also point out that I'm taking MONGO's comments as an attack, as wikistalking is a bannable offense, and his unfounded allegations are to be honest troubling me. I think his allegations might be based on the fact that I tend to edit some articles related to politcal topics which he might be interested in, I don't know. rootology (T) 07:14, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

MONGO's statement is a personal attack. And I don't see MONGO providing any evidence of your alleged "wikistalking" or "dramatica". And then MONGO's revert removed your statement which was entirely a valid request for diffs. --HResearcher 07:23, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Not a personal attack, simply an observation. Rootology is disruptive and has been following myself and a number of other admins around, just as I stated.--MONGO 08:39, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Would you care to finally demonstrate for for me where and how I'm following you and the admins around, including diffs, beyond my one comment on Sam's page that was already on my watchlist from a previous conversation? If not, I ask you officially to stop making these incorrect statements about me in different venues, and the same for the ED stuff. If you have no proof, please stop. rootology (T) 16:25, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Additionally, I strongly resent the fact you keep calling me disruptive. I'm no more vocal and outspoken (actually much less so, in some cases, and more polite in virtually all cases) than yourself, Ryan, and Cyde, the other admins who have also made that statement. I know you three disagree with my views, but labeling people as disruptive for being unafraid to disagree with an admin politely and vocally is rather funny. rootology (T) 17:08, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

The harrassment comment is making a strong statement, but overall, I see no personal attack in what MONGO has written. ANI is a place where we speak freely, and if you bring forward cases, you should expect them to be discussed in this spirit. - Samsara (talk • contribs) 11:04, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. rootology (T) 16:25, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Neither of the statements that MONGO made were personal attacks. The statement that rootology is an ED editor is, iirc, something that rootology has stated in the past. Anyway, it's a simple factual statement, not an attack. Either it's accurate, or it's inaccurate. If you consider it to be damaging to have that information released, that's another matter, but it isn't a personal attack. As for harrassing people - that isn't a statement about who r. is, that's a statement about her/his actions. As such, it isn't a personal attack. Guettarda 14:33, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I never said I was anywhere on Misplaced Pages, I don't know where you're getting that. For the harassment and wikistalking, which is a blockable offense, I can then begin saying on various talk and wikipedia name space pages that MONGO or Guettarda is wikistalking me? Without any proof? I've asked MONGO to repeatedly demonstrate this with evidence or stop, but he has refused. Does that seem fair or right? Would I get a free pass as he has to make similar false comments? rootology (T) 16:25, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, this has happened to me to, both by MONGO and by another admin. It comes down to a matter of intent; are these threats/accusations sincere, or are they just designed to intimidate and/or insult? An editor of any sort, especially admins, the "Face" of Misplaced Pages, who was making a good faith effort to halt a disruptive editors behavior would provide diffs, reasoning etc. so as to show that they are right and to cut off possible trolling by said editor (who would no longer have the "he's not telling me what I'm doing wrong" excuse). Then, if that editor were being disruptive unintentionally or without really realizing it/ admitting it to themself or whatever, that editor could review what is disruptive or harassment and could stop. Is an editor who gives out warning but is not only negligent, but unwilling to demonstrate what they are talking about, acting to help stave off disruption, or are they acting to insult or browbeat someone? (By the way, I check the ANI about once or twice a week lol) Karwynn (talk) 00:09, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

RPA is a bad idea, and NPA is a bad idea, too

• This is just more evidence of what a rotten idea these two proposals are. We now have to spend our time getting out the scales and putting this comment in one pan and our own personal "insult" weight in the other and try to agree (or, much worse, leave it to the individual receiving the comments) that something is or isn't a personal attack. We have to spend our time doing this instead of resolving the dispute or concentrating on the question behind the curtain: is this disruption or disagreement? What a ridiculous pursuit!
• Then we get to RPA -- a "semi-policy" drafted by someone who wanted counter-arguments to disappear and who wanted accusations to go away. Oh, we'll keep garbage in an article history eternally. We'll keep vandalism in the history forever. However, the delicate flowers among our administrative ranks should be able to hide and annihilate something that is personally ill fitting? To hell with that. More to the point, we grind to a halt again while we try to consider "was that an insult bad enough to remove? should it have been just removed or archived?" What a ridiculous idea! This is what trolls do: they get sites to talk about themselves instead of whatever their function had been. They make things grind to a halt. Well, that's what these two things do.
• If there is a question of disruption, let's bring it up. If there is a need for mediation, let's get it going. If there is a need for an RFC, then let's kick start it. Let's not navel gaze and try to fix the mercury of insults. Geogre 12:12, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I think NPA is a good idea, we should all be civil to each other. Editing comments of other users is a really really bad idea in almost any case, tho, and so is RPA. Otherwise, I totally agree with everything you said. --Conti|✉ 14:29, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. I don't want to appear to even hint that I'm even suggesting a hint that I support incivility. It's just that codifying in the way we sort-of have is distracting from actually patrolling and considering and acting on those cases where we have disruption. I have a tendency to use ink horn terms and be "eloquent." Now, I can say nasty things to someone in the most circuitous manner, and I can get them so angry that they're doing no good. No "PA?" That's the thing. We used to assess disruptiveness, not ego attacks. We should still. We also needn't have some "insult of X severity = sanction of Y duration." We're humans, and that means we're smarter than any codification because, in the end, we always have to do the interpreting. Let's talk together, act together, and work together. Anyway, just some exasperation on my part. Geogre 14:52, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree that drowning ourselves in policy is a bad idea. Causing people to become upset is also a bad idea, as is administrators setting a bad example. So let's *ommm* concentrate on our humanity and be courteous and forgiving and assuming good faith. :) - Samsara (talk • contribs) 17:16, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

People have wildly different opinions of what is and is not a 'personal attack' or 'uncivil'... but I think it is clear to everyone that what we have here is not cordial disagreement with everyone respecting their fellow editors. That's not good for Misplaced Pages and ought to be a sign to take a step back until you can be polite again. --CBD 18:52, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

MONGOs threat to block me

Was this an appropriate threat? As RPA is a disputed policy, I would like to ask fior approval from at least one admin to remove (not archive) what I feel is out of bounds/beyond policy warning on my page, without having to worry about a retributive block from MONGO. rootology (T) 16:26, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

How is that a personal attack? He is questioning the manner in which he percieves you operate, not attacking you personally. Now, you may dispute the factual basis of the assertion and demand evidence, that's one thing, but not use RPA to de facto censor the comment. El_C 18:19, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

There is no policy barring the removal of comments from one's user talk page. In some instances this may be considered 'hostile' if the comment is removed without response where one would be expected, or 'deceptive' if possibly removing warnings to hide evidence of past misbehaviour in an effort to continue getting away with it. However, those are generally minor issues of civility and there is certainly nothing which would justify a block for removal of comments. Editing of comments to change the apparent statements of another user is another matter entirely and generally prohibited except in the case of 'removing personal attacks'... though as you note even then it is a disputed practice. Looking at this particular situation I don't see any way that removal of MONGO's threat could be problematic... it clearly does not expect a response and removing it doesn't hide any 'past misdeed' on your part. Threats aren't exactly WP:CIVIL and I can't imagine anyone would seriously argue that you should be required to host them on your talk page. --CBD 18:23, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

To answer the question, have you read the comment? (Yes.) Then it's your talk page. This type of warning isn't really in the "warning sock puppet" or other warning designed for other people to read. It was a message directed to you and not a tag, so, if you've read it, you should be free to delete it. No RPA involved. Geogre 18:26, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Geogre, no, it doesn't matter if it is or isn't a tag, please please don't talk crazy! (ZOMG NPA RPA and block me for egregious implication of insanity, and block me some more for saying egregious!) There is no virtue of irremoveability in a tag. Posting a tag doesn't require or guarantee any more understanding of policy, or good judgement, or good faith, or good sense, or restraint, than posting a self-formulated warning--less, if anything. Please don't encourage the notion that it's inevitably vandalism to remove a tag, and that if you post a tag you're free to edit war to force the person to display your wonderful untouchable tag on their page for ever and a day. Bishonen | talk 22:37, 20 August 2006 (UTC).

Yes, well, I'm refering to RPA enacted on ANI, not on a talk page. El_C 18:30, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

My understanding was/is that he was asking about his talk page. --CBD 18:47, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Still unclear to me. Where was the pertinent diff cited (above)? El_C 19:02, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

He was asking about this, I guess, in "appropriate threat?." That's on his user talk page and is a message, not the kind of warning given that shouldn't be removed. He can delete it, if he wants, so long as he has read and understands it. Geogre 20:48, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Who is objecting to that removal? It's a nonissue; the issue is misuse of RPA to censor criticism. El_C 00:25, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

"Misuse of RPA?" I don't think there is a proper use of RPA, myself. Geogre 12:20, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, , I've seen one of my favourite heroines, the always-delightful Bishonen, implement it rather successfuly. El_C 20:26, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

For the record...

...keep up the good work, Mongo. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 00:38, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks...I usually say what I mean, and mean what I say.--MONGO 04:17, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Universe Daily/Today/Bad Astronomy spam again

For prerefrencing, read the following:

• Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_investigation/Archives/2006/06 See the section on UniverseToday
• ANI#Bad_Astronomy.2C_I_suppose ANI on him
• Category:Misplaced Pages:Sock puppets of Universe Daily for spam links
• See the page history of Universe Today, a page on a real website he keeps trying to change to include links to his website(s).

Major accounts:

• Universe Daily (talk · contribs)
• Bad Astronomer (talk · contribs)

This is a prolific spammer I've been tracking. All his spam link redirected to http://projectorion.proboards28.com/index.cgi or something that looked identical to it. Often the page would proclaim the link you just went to, but it was the same internet forum in any case. The pictures changed too I think. Pretty cruddy. The category link has a list of many of his spam websites.

BUT

He has a new bloody tactic. The links are now framing to actual websites. Of course, since he controls all the redirect sites, he can just change them to whatever once they've made their home on wikipedia articles

The latest accounts by him are as follows, and need to be blocked. This would be easier if he wasn't resorting to the subterfuge:

• Spacegoat (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Bloodredrover (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Dinohunter (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Can there be defined community ban on this loser? People are going to start getting suspicous and complaining that I'm removing "valid" links. I'm sure other administrator's have met with his spam and have blocked his sockpuppets. To those, go check your own contribution histories, and you'll see the same spam links that you removed are now happily pointing to some innoculus website. I'm willing to stake plenty on seeing this guy go down. I'll answer any questions I can on this guy. Kevin_b_er 07:32, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation Kevin. I was wondering myself because I couldn't see the connection with Dinohunter at first. Nice catch I have to say. Start up a subpage page for him at Misplaced Pages:Long term abuse and create a Template similar to Template:GT pointing to that page and tag his accounts with it. In the meantime, file a request on all his known user accounts at Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser for now so future admins can block on sight. I have a feeling this guy is going to be around awhile. --  Netsnipe    07:56, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, a better solution is to list all his domains on meta:Talk:Spam_blacklist. If he's going to keep on spamming Misplaced Pages then it's going to cost real money for domain registrations. Don't forget to use Special:Linksearch to weed out all of his sockpuppets and articles he's attacking. --  Netsnipe    08:01, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm at an impasse on that. See, if he's resorting to putting up framed webpages that appear to be 'good' sites, but are actually waiting to be changed to spam, its going to get really hard to track him if he starts making more websites that are superfake because his webpages are all blacklisted. Right now I'm having an easy time tracking his movements. Checkuser could be of some help, and while I'm not going to state my beliefs, I have a pretty good idea as a result of maintainence/clerking that I do on RFCU that most of his spam is outside the range of checkuser. Kevin_b_er 08:05, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

OK. I'll start writing up a Long Term abuse profile on the guy tomorrow. By the way, don't use Category:Misplaced Pages:Sock puppets of Universe Daily anymore, move everything into Misplaced Pages:Long term abuse/Universe Daily and tag his puppets using {{subst:sockpuppet|Universe Daily}} on their user pages. --  Netsnipe    08:24, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

• I would support a community block for an extended period, though not indefinite, because of the severity of what he's doing. In my pantheon of abuses, squabbling is low, but making us advertise is very, very high. Geogre 12:05, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Special Craftsman (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Signed up today, has made one edit (to this page) which had a suprisingly jargoned edit summary. Possible sock (of who - I don't know, maybe someone involved in that discussion) or just Encyclopedia Dramatica or Misplaced Pages Review editor? Might bear looking at. Viridae 12:08, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

User:Danielpi

User:Danielpi insists on reinserting an off-topic request in The Inquirer talk page. ] I asked him politely in his talk page to not reinsert it because of The Inquirer's personal attacks against me and Misplaced Pages, but he ignored me and reinserted it anyways. Dionyseus 13:09, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

User:Dionyseus is currently involved in an ArbCom case with me. Many of my assertions about his conduct are confirmed by his subsequent wiki behavior, and I am simply inviting users to share their opinions at the ArbCom workshop. Since he has a long history with The Inquirer, it seems relevant to the case in question. I am expected, as a participant in that ArbCom, to produce evidence. I assume testimonials count, and I am therefore inclined to say that posting solicitations for comment in Dionyseus's stomping grounds is relevant to those discussion pages. Danny Pi 13:24, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

The arbitration committee pretty much disagreed with everything Danielpi claimed about me, and it appears that he's going to be banned for his personal attacks against me. Anyways, I don't see how the arbitration case is related to The Inquirer talk page, and I definitely do not appreciate his discourteous solicitations. Dionyseus 20:37, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Image:RoyGrec.png and use on {{House of Oldenburg (Glucksburg-Greece)}}

Today, I removed Image:RoyGrec.png from {{House of Oldenburg (Glucksburg-Greece)}} , leaving as I usually do (I've done about 2000 of these) a detailed edit summary of why it was removed along with links to policy and further explanation. A bit later, User:Jtdirl (also an admin) reverted my removal without commentary . I reverted this reversion, stating again the basis and noting that I was taking the discussion to User:Jtdirl's talk page , which I did . User:Jtdirl reverted the change again, this time indicating I should discuss this with people working on royalty templates, and that I did not know the law . I reverted again, this time without commentary from me hoping that User:Jtdirl will review the message I left on his talk page and discuss the change there.

Misplaced Pages:Fair use criteria item #9 is clear and unequivocal; images tagged with a fair use tag may not be used outside of the main article namespace. Image:RoyGrec.png is tagged with {{coatofarms}}. Strictly speaking if the image is considered as a coat of arms, the image does not qualify under fair use, per that template "A coat of arms can be depicted in multiple ways, and may only be used on Misplaced Pages if the design is available under a free licence. " Thus, the image essentially has no license and isn't usable here until a license is determined. If it is considered an emblem, then it's use qualifies as fair use.

Since I've already reverted User:Jtdirl twice in less than ten minutes, I'm bringing this here for others to be aware of, and if in agreement to remind User:Jtdirl of our policy on the use of fair use images. --Durin 15:57, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Left message on User:Jtdirl talk page encouraging discussion instead of reverting. --FloNight 16:16, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

• And this edit is hardly helpful. :( --Durin 16:33, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Copyright violations by User:Galassi

Galassi (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) recently "rewrote" the article on Carl Michael Bellman with large text chunks taken from http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/bellman.htm, a Finnish literature website, and Grove Music Online, a subscription site difficult to identify through Google. Looking at his contributions, it turns out that at least this addition to the Sylvius Leopold Weiss article is also from Grove. With this attitude to copyrighted content, I suspect many or all his contributions are taken from Grove or other non-free sources. I have not systematically gone through and reverted all his contributions, as an admin can do this much more easily. A temporary block would probably be justified. Tupsharru 16:38, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Sounds at first glance like the M.O. of Primetime (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log), who swore he'd keep up his behavior even after being banned. --Calton | Talk 01:01, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Primetime often copied from Groves. He's also re-appeared recently, including as Adorno Horkheymer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). -Will Beback 01:26, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Galssi is definitely Primetime. The fraudulent tags on the images he uploaded are another trademark. He may be using role accounts for different fields of interest. -Will Beback 02:18, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

User:Torban

Torban (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log), who started editing Aug. 20, is now reinserting the same copyvio material from Grove's. Tupsharru 20:26, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth, Primetime (as user:Ferrymoyassity) wrote a message on my talk page disavowing any connection with Adorno Horkheymer and Galassi, but admitting to ╗Creat╚ (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Galassi, et al., may be unrelated but share the same M.O. -Will Beback 22:27, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

User trying to impersonate me

CFlF (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has signed up in an attempt to impersonate me. --CFIF ☎ 16:44, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

• doesn't indicate this user has been created. Did you mean another account? --Durin 16:46, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, see the above...the account is CFlF, I fixed it. (CF lowercase L F) --CFIF ☎ 16:48, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I have blocked it. Mushroom (Talk) 16:51, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. --CFIF ☎ 16:54, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

CFD vs. DRV: action review requested

1. On July 19, WP:CFD deleted Category:Articles with unsourced statements (log} which was used on {{fact}}.
2. On July 31, CFD deleted Category:Articles lacking sources (log) which was used {{unreferenced}} and had been added to {{fact}} following the above deletion.
3. Subsequently, Category:Articles needing sources was created and added to {{fact}}, et al. This was nominated for deletion on August 11: (log)

• On August 14, deletion review was begun on Category:Articles lacking sources. This morning that was closed with a unanimous verdict to overturn (log)

Based on that conclusion (closed by Xoloz), and the close relationship between these different rulings, I have taken some unusual actions, which I want to make others aware of for review and comment.

1. I closed the ongoing CFD on Category:Articles needing sources, and as it was now entirely redundant to the restored category, I deleted it after moving the references back to the restored category.
2. I restored Category:Articles with unsourced statements. Though this category is not specifically discussed in the DRV, the arguments and context are extremely similar. I believe the existence of this deletion largely escaped notice because most uses of it were converted to Articles lacking sources at the time of its deletion.

If people object to the second undeletion, we can run that through DRV also, but I am confident the result would be the same.

More generally, I think we have a problem if CFD can, through the course of active discussion involving dozens of participants, repeatedly reach a conclusion that can be unanimously overturned by dozens of other participants at DRV. At least one of these groups must be out of touch with the views of the larger community, and that in itself is a substantial problem, in my opinion. Dragons flight 18:11, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I'll raise my hand to speak for some of the DRV group: our objection, repeated in many voices, was that the deletion left a large tear in scores of articles and that any xfD lacked a solution to the damage caused by the deletion. Inasmuch as this was an admonitory category and not a content category, we (most of us) felt that there could be no deletion without, simultaneously, a solution that would substitute for its old function. There were other factors, as well, mainly related to the fact that the compulsion to delete was based on a false premise, but I'll let server folks talk about that. Geogre 18:23, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I have an idea ... this seems like a change to big to be undertaken by *FD alone. How about starting a discussion in project-space to go for two weeks and link it from {{cent}}? --Cyde Weys 18:46, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Seconded. As the admin who closed the first CFD above, you'll note that I disagreed with the consensus but considering that all of these categories spawn from changes in {fact} it seemed reasonable to assume that if we were going to put into place some metacategorization (by month? with a toc?) then the category itself was likely to be nuked in the process anyhow (and others added to {fact}, requiring little human intervention). I don't think CFD itself is the problem, but that it is somewhat the redheaded stepchild of *FD so discussions there aren't given enough eyes. Barring that, I'd be up for making a guideline to closing admins on CFD to bring maintenance category deletion notices to ANI or VP or something. Syrthiss 21:20, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I really don't like the sound of that. There is already an inherent bias towards keeping things that are most useful to editors rather than the vastly greater number of readers, and this sounds like it would make it worse. It is people who visit Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion who are most engaged with the management of the category system, which is an issue in its own right, and I don't think our rights should be taken away. We have a page called "Categories for discussion", so the question is are we going to be allowed to make decisions on categories at that page or not? If not, why not? There are an increasing number of comments on the page which simply scorn the process rather than engaging with the merits of the category, and it is becoming demoralising.

I am seriously concerned that the whole system is biased towards retention of marginal categories because it usually only takes the creator and a few other people to prevent deletion, and the people who (over)value a category are the ones who are most likely to notice that it is up for discussion. A bad example of this was the retention of the "entertainers by age of death categories"; there was an overwhelming consensus to delete after 7 days, but the debate wasn't closed promptly and after 9 days a bunch of meat puppets showed up and voted "keep" in the space of a few hours. It increasingly seems to me that over time the category system is likely to get steadily worse, because even if only 10% of bad categories are kept, that means that more and more bad categories will accumulate over time and eventually the category clutter on high profile articles will become so bad that they might as well not have categories at all. The way to tackle this is to keep as much control of the category system as possible in the hands of people who care about the category system as a whole and vote on that basis, rather than as partisans for or against specific categories, and that means the people who take the trouble to visit "Categories for discussion" regularly. Thus I deprecate anything that downgrades the decision making status of "Categories for discussion. Chicheley 23:07, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I had thought that the standard way of doing things was that pages or categories associated with a process, policy, proposal etc. should not be deleted without first abandoning or changing the things that depend on them. In other words, *FD is not where we decide how to do things on Misplaced Pages; *FD doesn't get to decide policy (process, proposal, ...) by deleting them or the things they depend upon.

Thus, if one wants to get rid of something used by the project, make it obsolete first and THEN delete it. IOW, if {{fact}} shouldn't associate with a category, get consensus first to change {{fact}} not to use a category, and then, when the category is no longer in use, delete it. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 07:18, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

This conversation brings to light a very serious problem with the workings of Misplaced Pages. Decisions are supposed to be made by discussion, but there is little consensus about what that means in practice. To some it means that there is a straw poll, everyone gives their opinion, and if the requisite percentage is met, there is consensus. That is the current practice, but I think this understanding of the meaning of "discussion" is wrong. Discussion has to be a much bigger process, and the wisdom of administrators has to play a bigger role. Jimmy Wales, in his numerous talks (they are linked to his article), gives an AFD example where everyone says "delete" until the very end of the discussion at which point someone explains clearly why something should be kept, and it is. This notion of discussion is slipping away. If we have policies, an admin should be able to weigh the arguments made during a discussion in light of what the policies are and then make an informed decision. This is more like being a judge than a election official. If a discussion clearly points out a problem with a policy, the closing admin should close it by saying "no consensus, refer the issue for discussion at the relevant policy page".

Our system of creating policy is moving towards becoming totally descriptive. Having descriptive policies instead of proscriptive ones are valuable when things are evolving. If you don't know the best way to do something, or if people have differing ideas about how to do things, let them work out solutions, and see which work and which get adopted by the wider community. Then we can create descriptive policies about what evolves. Once we have policies, we should apply them, or discuss changing them. What we shouldn't do is vote case by case with a random set of voters.

I'd like to propose that anyone closing a discussion try to weigh the arguments against policy. If the popular "vote" is clearly against policy, the admin could state an "initial decision" explaining their rationale, and leave the discussion up for a while to allow conversation to continue. In this way the admin would be behaving more like a facilitator. Once closed, the voters could start a discussion about changing policy on the appropriate page. --Samuel Wantman 08:43, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism, AfD gaming: User:Michael Snow

I don't know why an editor this well-regarded would be doing something like this, but the evidence is just undeniable. Michael seems to have a feud going with User:Billy Blythe. Billy created an article on Mariju Bofill. Michael removed much of the article's text, claiming it was "unverifiable. However, the information was verifiable simply by googling "Mariju Bofill" ; in fact, Google provides stronger evidence for notability than the article asserted. Michael then took the gutted article to AfD, claiming he had removed only "unverifiable" information. I don't know, I don't really care, if Mariju Bofill's article should be deleted. I do care that Michael is not presenting the facts of this accurately. I won't go quite as far as the AfD comment that called this "bad faith," but something here really stinks. VivianDarkbloom 19:26, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Please assume good faith. Certainly nothing you have described here merits the label 'vandalism'. Try using less loaded words. --Doc 19:41, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I've verified and restored some of the content. But it is still a deletion candidate. --Doc 19:58, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I think you're wrong. This isn't the first time I've seen this on AfD, and it's dubious behavior at best. Especially given Michael's rather odd personal borderline attack on Billy as a stalker. (It looks more like the reverse.) VivianDarkbloom 20:08, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

It might have been appropriate to have said "not verified" (which is a fact) rather than "unverifiable" (which is a surmise). However, it is up to an editor who wishes to retain material in an article to provide verification for it. Otherwise it can be removed. I realise this is only a part of the above discussion, but you might as well get this part cleared up. Then you can deal with the rest. Tyrenius 22:04, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism:User:ApolloBoy

Appoloboy is once again removing comments from talk pages that do not agree with his opinions. Perhaps it would serve wikipedia well to ban him for about six years, giving him time to grow up randazzo56 19:31, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Randazzo, perhaps your opinions and edits should be looked into more so than ApolloBoy's. How is this WP:CIVIL? Or this ? Or this ? Metros232 19:39, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Inappropriate block by Tyrenius

I've recently been blocked for responding to someone warning me on my talk page about supposed trolling and threatening me with a block after he had inappropriately attempted to invalidate an AfR support which was valid according to policy, even though the account that made the vote is supposedly a troll. The only edit I made after that was to note that the user warning me had recently been inappropriately attempting to invalidate a legitimate support vote in an RfA, and so his warnings didn't mean much to me. However, within minutes I was blocked by Tyrenius because the warning I made was supposedly a personal attack, though it included no inflammatory language and did not in any way insult the user who had added a warning to my talk page.

I'd appreciate it if someone could help with the problems I'm having being blocked for so-called personal attacks that are completely benign and come no where near to being attacks. Love, Coyote (t) 20:26, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I'll chime in with Coyote on this one. In recent discussions User:Tyrenius takes good care to be civil. But shows little regard for etiquette, threatening to remove discussion from article talk pages if he feels it is inappropriate. his messages to me and my messages to him. This was after I had placed sort of "maybe the two of you can alternate turns" at an article's discussion page which he removed here. Terryeo 07:30, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Stop attacking other people and you won't have any problems. User:Zoe|(talk) 01:10, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Endorse Tyrenius' block entirely. QEC's contributions have been almost universally unproductive -- Samir धर्म 07:30, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Re. Terryeo, I suggest you study a talk page first, before inserting irrelevant, provocative comments (described by another editor as "completely unhelpful" — see User talk:Sunray) in the middle of a tense, but constructive discussion, and insulting the editors involved: "Sheesh, I thought I had problems where I'm editing !" Your contribution, for what it's worth, is archived. I gave you the benefit of the doubt, but next time I will regard it as deliberate disruption. Tyrenius 18:10, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Concerted, coordinated vandalism effort on front page

This isn't vandalism in progress, because regrettably the front page has had to be protected. If you check the history, about 8 different IDs vandalised the same way (some using the saravulva.jpg clitoris picture) with the same edit summaries, all in about 5 minutes. Anchoress 20:34, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

The Misplaced Pages:Main Page is permanently protected. If you're referring to Roman Vishniac, articles linked from the Main Page are vandalized all the time, policy is not to protect them while they're there. It's not on the Main Page any more, anyway. User:Zoe|(talk) 01:11, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah I was talking about Roman Vishinac. I wasn't asking for it to be protected, at the time I posted the original comment it was protected; I didn't post for action on vandalism in progress, but to suggest that maybe it was one person with multiple accounts, or that it might be vandalism happening across several pages simultaneously. Just a heads-up, I wasn't asking for any action. From the blocking comments it looks like all 8 or so vandals are being treated as socks anyway. --Anchoress 02:34, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

User:Philwelch

User:Philwelch is a sysop, he redirected pages to a Cylon charcter list.

The charcters each had there own pages.

• 1st annother user reverted him. A discussion then began.
• Then i reverted him. He then blocked me and cited he was being bold .
• Now annother user reveretd him and he blocked that user. He just pulled that block however.

He has violated 3RR five times, He has also violated two rules on WP:BLOCK (blocking to gain presedence in content dispute) and "Generally, caution should be exercised before blocking users who may be acting in good faith.". The fact that three users oppose his changes should mean that the prior version should be restored, right?

Pages: Leoben Conoy, Aaron Doral, Number Three, Brother Cavil, Cylon (Battlestar Galactica) MatthewFenton (talk • contribs) 20:49, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

This isn't really a good venue for deciding content issues. Try discussing the merits of the merges on the appropriate talk pages. This block may be a bit questionable given Philwelch's personal involvement, but you've already been unblocked. What are you hoping to accomplish? If you don't like being blocked for excessive reverts, try not reverting. I see a couple other blocks for edit warring- surely you know by now that there are more effective ways to edit. Friday (talk) 21:06, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not botherd about my block personally its the fact he is blocking others for isagreeing with him, violating 3rr and wp:block. All pages he reverted are good and being bold doesnt justify a redirect :\. MatthewFenton (talk • contribs) 21:10, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Um, Friday... while it is true that this is not "a good venue for deciding content issues" - the comments above say virtually nothing about the content dispute (beyond that it exists) and quite alot about questionable administrator actions. Which this page IS 'a good venue for discussing'. Admins should never block people with whom they are involved in a content dispute. It is one of the very few things we are explicitly prohibited from doing. --CBD 09:13, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I've advised Phil to back off. There's simply no reason to edit war over such an insignificant topic. Kelly Martin (talk) 21:14, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I encourage everyone to participate in the ongoing content discussion at Talk:Battlestar Galactica (2004 TV series)#Merging minor Cylon characters into Cylon article. So far no one else has really made an attempt to address the concerns I'm bringing up. — Philwelch t 21:17, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Wow! Great idea Phil! Let's talk about it. Too bad you've BLOCKED EVERYONE who seems to have a problem with this issue today. So how are they supposed to retort?

BTW, to whoever gives a damn about this, I'm speaking on behalf of my friend User:Cyberia23 who was unjustifiably blocked from editing today by Philwelch who is clearly abusing his power as an admin. I'm not the only one who sees what he is doing and knows that it's wrong.

The problem started when Phil redirected all minor character articles from Battlestar Gallactica, (those in particular Leoben Conoy, Aaron Doral, Simon to name a few) to the default Cylon page without any real discussion on the matter (of course he's offering that now after the fact, how kind of him).

The so-called discussion ammounts to this: One person DrBat suggested here to merge the minor character articles to the Cylon and Phil barges in and makes the changes like he owns the place. Anyone who tried to tell him otherwise he blocks! He claims on his Cyberia's talk page under "Cylon Redirects", and per Being Bold, that no discussion is warranted which is complete BS. He has since told Cyberia he will be unblocked if he assuers he won't make changes - again complete abuse of admin power and being unfair to Cyberia who can't even plead his case since he is blocked from editing and participating. Cyberia said a few hours ago he won't make changes, but when will Phil show mercy and unblock him? Ina few minutes, a few hours, days, or whenever Phil feels like flexing his godly power and grant pity. Cyberia will not kiss his ass and no one else should either. Phil needs to have his admin powers revoked, and maybe sit in the time out chair for a while so he knows what it's like to be ignored and unable to defend yourself.

Someone please unblock Cyberia23 and get power-tripping admins like Phil out of here.

There are also other users he's blocked today. Please allow them to return. SkeezerPumba 23:38, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

It is mentioned in this report that Philwelch has violated 3RR five times, has he been reported to 3RR? If not, point me to the articles in which he violated 3RR and I'll lodge a report. Dionyseus 01:00, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I've reported Philwelch for his 3RR violations on Aaron_Doral and Brother_Cavil. Dionyseus 02:09, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I unblocked Cyberia 13 minutes after placing the block, as his block log shows. AN/I is not a forum for libel and personal attacks and you will be blocked for using it as such. — Philwelch t 01:15, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I actually agree with what Philwelch is trying to do, but his administrator actions were way over the top here. He used the rollback button in a content dispute, and, much worse, blocked two users for 24 hours for reverting him, without any discussion whatsoever. I know, people are now discussing this peacefully and probably come to a satisfactory solution, but this really shouldn't have happened in the first place. --Conti|✉ 01:58, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I find it difficult to disagree with this. Jkelly 06:59, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I apologize for my frustration—multiple users think that tag-teaming and simplistic readings of policy outweigh producing a good result. My actions were successful, however, in bringing other editors to the discussion table, which was really all I wanted. If you want to start a confrontation with me, you're going to lose, one way or another. If you want to talk to me, we can talk and work something out. — Philwelch t 02:32, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

User:Philwelch blocked me without warning me, all I did was one revert of his redirects in the Aaron_Doral and Brother_Cavil articles in which he has clearly violated the 3RR violation. I was unblocked quickly, Philwelch was told by the unblocking administrator that his block was clearly inappropiate. Dionyseus 03:18, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I am appalled not only by the actions of Philwelch, but also by his statements afterward, especially ...multiple users think that tag-teaming and simplistic readings of policy outweigh producing a good result. My actions were successful, however, in bringing other editors to the discussion table, which was really all I wanted. This is completely unacceptable behavior by an administrator -- bullying people into cooperating rarely, if ever, actually works, and 3RR is frankly, fairly simplistic, as is the rules on WP:BAN. Silas Snider (talk) 03:31, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. What should those who have been treated unfairly by Philwelch do now? Arbitration? Dionyseus 03:37, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I was unaware Phil had unbanned me soon after the ban because I had to apparently refresh my cashe and cookies on Mozilla to edit again. I was didn't even think of checking the blocklog, so it looked like I was banned for several hours. SkeezerPumba told me to refresh everything and now it seems to work. My mistake, but not really my fault had I not been banned in the first place. I did't wannto start crap with Phil over something trivial as Battlestar Galactica fancruft but he left me no choice until I figured out what was going on. I spent a lot of time on those articles to just see them get trashed and no valid reason given. Hopefully we can work a compromise, but thats really up to Mr. Phil here. I was pissed off, but I don't feel he should lose his admin privledges over this, but given at least a warning on his record for stomping on people until he hears him out. Just because he has a BLOCK USER button to press doesn't make him right about everything, plus his "If you want to start a confrontation with me, you're going to lose, one way or another." sounds like he has an attitude problem. Cyberia23 03:48, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

• Was reviewing WP:ANI/3RR and saw the multiple complaints as listed above. I've blocked User:Philwelch for 24 hours in the same context for a bit of a cool-down period -- Samir धर्म 06:38, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Inshanee - Harassment by Admin

This Admin will not leave me alone. She blanked my userpage under false pretenses. Now she is leaving threats on my talkpage.

"Regarding edits such as this: This is your only warning. Make any more attacks or harrassing comments against other users and you will be blocked. --InShaneee 23:20, 18 August 2006 (UTC)" Diff: ]

Obviously there are no personal attacks or harassment. Someone needs to have a word with her on how to behave and remain civil. We don't need self-appoined censors on Misplaced Pages.

Sarastro777 21:34, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you hope to accomplish by bringing the matter here. I also don't appreciate your characterization of my comments; racial remarks of any sort, including "jew lover" (to use your example), is unacceptable. Mackensen (talk) 21:43, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

What I hope to accomplish is that someone will tell Inshanee she cannot go around banning people for valid conversations. Uhhh.. you are contradicting yourself as I had filed a complaint about someone calling others "jew hater." You concluded it was "calling a spade a spade." You exactly confirmed the point I made on an unrelated talkpage that "jew lover" is equally unacceptable, but would be more readily enforced as so. I didn't call anybody a "jew lover." We also most certainly ARE allowed to discuss, edit, document "racial" language in the proper context. See nigger,Cracker_(pejorative),etc. Sarastro777 22:00, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

You are aware that to call a spade a spade is idiomatically defined as "To speak directly, precisely, and forthrightly" American Heritage Dictionary definition of "call" at Bartleby.com. Additonally, aside from whatever connotations you yourself place on the word, a spade is a shovel. Syrthiss 22:30, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

"Spade" is also offensive slang for a black person, and some people think that the expression "to call a spade a spade" is a reference to this. However, the expression was around long before that usage of the word "spade". -- Kjkolb 08:56, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

It's "he", for what it's worth, too. --InShaneee 16:26, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

• Sarastro777 blocked for 24 hours for the Gestapo remark. El_C 00:43, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Please may Sarastro777 be banned for one month from trolling this board?

The usefulness of WP:ANI is in inverse proportion to how much time we have to waste dealing with tireless malcontents. My own inclination to frequent the page is in inverse proportion to the boringness and the depressingness and the sinking feeling of pointlessness I experience every time yet another Sarastro777 thread turns up. Is that just me? We're being too nice here IMO. People have been banned, even permanently banned, from posting on AN and ANI before. Please comment below: may I ban Sarastro777 from ANI and AN for one month? And, I never thought I'd hear myself say this, but personally I consider this to be a question principally for admins. This is a board "for reporting and discussing incidents that require the intervention of administrators". Somebody remind me, has any issue Sarastro777 has brought here ever required the intervention of administrators? Bishonen | talk 02:28, 20 August 2006 (UTC).

My patience with this user wore thin long ago. Do exactly that, and I hope we'll all agree to impose blocks if he defies the page-specific bans. Metamagician3000 02:36, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

His recent contributions seems to consist almost entirely of wasting time on this board and on Talk: pages; I certainly support this as well. Jayjg 03:43, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I have been engaging in discussion with the user over the block here. It's not really working out, by which I mean, it's failing dismally. El_C 04:39, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Support ;) ⇒ SWATJester Aim _Fire! 05:26, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I know well Bishonen's sinking feeling of pointlessness, and it should be avoided at all costs. :-) SlimVirgin 05:38, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes please; anything that moves these pages more towards action items and less towards malformed RfCs is a good idea. Jkelly 06:56, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I too would support this. Even longer if necessary. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 11:56, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, all. I'll give it a couple more hours for any further comments and then, unless there are counterweighting protests, tell Sarastro777 that he's banned from AN and ANI for a month. "Banned" means he's not to post on AN or ANI under any excuse or from any account, and if he does, any admin can block him at discretion (I'd suggest 12—24 hours) and remove the post. But active enforcement of these things usually doesn't turn out to be neccessary. Hopefully he'll just get on with writing the encyclopedia. Bishonen | talk 12:52, 20 August 2006 (UTC).

I would support this as well. --PinchasC | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€ 13:13, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

A block would seem like a good solution. Thε Halo 13:31, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Sarastro777 has been banned from posting on ANI and AN for one month, to run from when his current 24-hour block expires. I wonder if we should have some place to record stuff like that? This thread will soon be in an archive. Bishonen | talk 18:04, 20 August 2006 (UTC).

Perhaps a box on the user talk page of the editor, or is that too much? -- Avi 18:06, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

While I agree with Bishonen that we need to keep a record of this kind of stuff, the place to do it is WP:AN...I think a box on his talk page wouldn't necessarily qualify as "too much" exactly, but I'm pretty sure it would be both inappropriate and misplaced. Since archiving is a concern here, and obviously is less of a concern on WP:AN (there are already notices there that are going on a month old...), I say tack up another notice there, Bishonen, and when this discussion is archived, provide links to the archived discussion in the notice. Cheers, Tomer 18:28, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Notices last for a month on AN? Eggzellent, that sounds just right. I don't want to shame the user or make his page wear an albatross or sandwich board. I just want admins to have a note for reference. Bishonen | talk 19:30, 20 August 2006 (UTC).

User:Halibutt

I would like User:Halibutt to be warned for personally attacking me(WP:NPA), multiple times, not only on my user talkpage, but also in numerous discussion threads.

one example comes from my talk page:Then perhaps you could tell me why do you believe black people should be exterminated? //Halibutt 12:26, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I have never made any statements about black people and this was totally nonsensical and out of the blue, check my contribution history to see proof of that. This all started when he started a revert war over the proper name for Polish September Campaign

--Jadger 23:09, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

An suspicious annoymous user editting the "Entropia Universe" article.

Hello,

I'm concerned greatly about an annoymous user (last IP was 88.105.73.18) who seems to be on a crusade on the Entropia Universe arcitle. They have a very swift tendancy to edit *any* negativity in the arcitle out, often under the guise of 'Removing Vandalism'.

They have even targetted the talk page too (Clean Up, Removal of unnecessary negative ranting and Vandalism, Removal of Spam Advertising, Restoration of Balance and removal of troll comments.)

They never use an account, and from the user contributions on the user page the Entropia Universe article is the only place they seem to edit.

I don't want to turn this into an all out edit war - but this person is really trying my wick and I don't know where to turn. They have as of yet left no comments on the talk page of said article.

erm... help!

AvanniaRayzor 23:22, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Disputes about article tone are pretty common, and this one doesn't seem to require (or allow for) administrative intervention at this time. I agree that some statistics-removals have been agressive, but the solution is to talk about—try taking WAS up on his suggestion at the talk page. I'll also add the article to my watchlist to get a better feel for the situation if it continues. -- SCZenz 03:23, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Good grief. How long have you guys been putting up with those talkpage deletions? Without going into the more difficult questions of article text removal and article tone, the removal of other people's comments from the talk page is not a difficult question at all. Doing that is a serious policy violation, period. I have posted a sharply worded warning on the user's own talkpage. If it happens again, please a) revert, and b) let me or another admin know as soon as possible. I've watchlisted the page, but watching isn't infallible, so do give somebody a shout if this abusive practice continues. Bishonen | talk 04:58, 20 August 2006 (UTC).

Yet Another Ray Lopez Outbreak

Persistent wikistalking over the course of a couple of years gets stale. Stirling Newberry 05:12, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Blocked for 24 hours for abusive behavior. Looks like there's a bit of history to this editor -- have a look: 67.18.109.218 (talk • contribs • page moves • block user • block log). Antandrus (talk) 05:30, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

RubberJoshy

RubberJoshy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

At a quick glance, I get the feeling that all his edits are hoaxes, but I don't have the time or energy to research British or Bulgarian TV shows right now. Help? —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 23:29, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I've asked User:TodorBozhinov to take a look. Jkelly 23:34, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

He's been creating pages getting speedied for one reason or another left and right. I've blocked him for three hours to try to staunch the flow of nonsense; I'd appreciate if someone else took a look, made sure I wasn't on crack, and (probably) indef'd him. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 23:40, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Most definately B.S. He's putting the name Josh Carter all over the place as an actor, game designer and even a football player. The account hasn't done anything else, indef seems warranted. Shell 23:42, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Claiming an affair with Jim Davidson, being creators of tv programmes all whilst being 16/17 years old.... --pgk 23:53, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Also see User talk:Josh Carter who I guess is now autoblocked as a result... --pgk 23:58, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I've indefed RubberJoshy; what's the right thing to do about the User:Josh Carter account? —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 00:10, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I've done a 24 hr block on User:Josh Carter to let us consider things. That user (too?) had been vandalizing in an highly juvenile manner. He added himself to the births of his birthday, and he made a G1 (even if true) "footballer" article. He marked all of these (including page creation!) as "minor edits." Then he goes and creates a second account? This all when brand new? Uhhhhh. I've rolled back his spurious edits and invite others to throw a longer block at him. Geogre 12:15, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

What a pain. Josh Carter's edits (at least the surviving ones) were all *after* the block on RubberJoshy; I'm not sure how he escaped the autoblocker so quickly. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 16:49, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Probably got home from the LAN party at his friend's house. I've left him a welcome and an explanation, since it may not be obvious to him why his edits weren't accepted, much less why he got blocked in his new incarnation. Rich Farmbrough 22:35 20 August 2006 (GMT).

in re: article on Melissa Farley

User:Nikkicraft who along with User:Peter G Werner has also started editing above named article seems to have mixed up a "hi how are you - here are some comments/questions as we work on this together" message left on her (I've checked & User:Nikkicraft IS a she) "My Talk" page with the actual Article.

User:Nikkicraft cut & pasted the "Hello message" into the actual Article Dicussion area, then put "citations needed" on things, and then started arguing with it.

Following Misplaced Pages:Resolving disputes I've tried to get User:Nikkicraft's attention to discuss this several times with no luck. If it come to it User:Peter G Werner has indicated he thinks User:Nikkicraft is behaving a little strangely too. But I'm hoping maybe she's just confused and an Admin can get her attention and point her in the correct directions towards harmonious editing. Thank you CyntWorkStuff 07:07, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I placed a comment about the "lease just chat back at me lover" confusion on her talk page, commented on and moved some refractored material from the talk page. Also, highlighted the role played by my cat in the debate. El_C 20:07, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Airport-related user names.

What is it with blocking all these Airport-related names? I keep getting autoblocked because of it. Autoblocks are frustrating because they block legitimate logged in users, too. Looks like we have a lot of block-happy users tonight. Please assume good faith. — Preceding unsigned comment added by August 20, 2006. (talk • contribs) No thats not a mistake - that is the username.Viridae 08:57, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Huh? If you are getting auto-blocked its possible someone with your IP previously was blocked. MatthewFenton (talk • contribs) 08:53, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Interesting username you have. I can see people getting very confused by that. Viridae 08:57, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I changed it, but I wrote this because I keep getting autoblock messages because of blocked usernames related to airports. Nobugs 08:59, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

See WP:TAV Anomo

That's because the "airport vandal" is nothing more than an AOL dos vandal, and even though people know that, they don't seem willing to watch for collateral from TAV blocks.--64.12.116.65 18:33, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

argh

I've just done something that trolls and policywonks worldwide have probably been waiting for with bated breath. If anyone regards it as a severe violation of policy, please undo it and repair it as you see fit. The act in question is "reclosing" the "closed by a non-admin" AfD discussion for Jahbulon. In case you can't figure it out, the crappy 2nd nom I closed was even misspelled (Jabulon vs. Jahbulon). Ugh. It's such a mess...I don't think I acted improperly, but the probsibility that people out there are going to scream "impropriety!" remains. Feedback welcome. If 3 admins feel I've acted improperly, please, a 4th, block me for 24 hours. Ciao, belli... Tomer 10:11, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't matter to me , as long as you don't do so again. --May the Force be with you! Shreshth91($ |-| ŗ 3 $ |-| ţ |-|) 10:29, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

And the farts with you... Wha? Tomer 10:39, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Let them scream into the wind. It was even withdrawn by nom. But let someone else do it next time to keep your nose clean. Tyrenius 18:20, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Will do. Thanks. Tomer 18:30, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Open proxy ?

While browsing WP:AFD, I came across this edit by MagnusSound (talk • contribs) which looks like something done through an open proxy (escaped quotes and all). Angus McLellan (Talk) 11:18, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I've reverted those edits, both were brand new editors on an AFD vote editing through a broken proxy... I left a note on the page and blocked both editors since any further edits by them are likely to do similar damage. --pgk 11:33, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I've identified and blocked the proxy in question. In the future, you can list this kind of thing at Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser#Requests for IP check. Mackensen (talk) 14:35, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

rf block review / normal process, not few-admins' decision labelled as "community block"

Ackoz (talk · contribs), Azmoc (talk · contribs) and the corresponding IP. I think that as Ackoz I contributed enough to wikipedia (most notably and other medical articles I have written/contributed to), that I should deserve a process like arbitration before I am blocked indefinitely from wikipedia. My last comments were "Concur" and "I second that" on ANI, which were labelled as superfluous trolling and the block was extended from Azmoc to Ackoz as well as the IP. I think it's too harsh. Maybe the arbitration would place me on probation, or block me aswell, however this long term/indef block issued by only a few overzealous admins is far too much. If I wanted to vandalise or do any harm to wikipedia, I could do thru proxies etc. 200.44.59.162 12:43, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

If you have tried {{unblock}} and been denied, there is a clear precedent to allow community-banned users to appeal to Arbcom. You can file as an IP, if the cases is accepted you will probably be unblocked to participate. Thatcher131 (talk) 18:17, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

"grapheus" is back

Banned long-term abuser "grapheus" aka Rose-mary (talk · contribs), the Phaistos Disc vandal, is back:

• 80.90.39.22 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 80.90.38.39 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 80.90.38.217 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

This is the guy who kept threatening opponents with real-life harassment and was probably responsible for the Gator1 incident. (see , ). Can somebody please reinstate a range block of 80.90.32.0/19, because that's the only thing that has been effective in the past in stopping him. Thanks, Scabbers the Rat 14:10, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

That guy, eh? I've done a three-month range block for anon users only and allowing account creation. Will that do? Too long, too short, anybody? Bishonen | talk 15:04, 20 August 2006 (UTC).

Seems about right. Rich Farmbrough 22:39 20 August 2006 (GMT).

Bad Faith assumed

Sue Anne and myself had a discussion yesterday regarding about my edits to an Apprentice article and based on these two inputs on my talk page (, ), I am going to have to take it as having either bad or no faith on myself whatsoever. Out of bad faith Sue Anne unloaded her harsh criticism on me, and after trying to battle it out during my sleep, I am going to have to take it as Sue Anne either having negative and/or no faith in me whatsoever. — Vesther (U * T/R * CTD) 14:14, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Maybe i shouldnt ask but could you show me where she has shown any bad faith? From my quick look to me it looks like she is trying to help you. MatthewFenton (talk • contribs) 14:17, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Matt, expect a message from myself shortly — Vesther (U * T/R * CTD) 14:42, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

You should really post it here so others can see. Ok, maybe you are offended but to my knowledge opinions are allowed and Sue Anne hasnt really been uncivil towards you has she.. she has tried to help you and while your style may differ she is trying to get you to use the style a concensous agrees on. MatthewFenton (talk • contribs) 14:52, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Matt, the reason why I had to let you know about this privately is because obviously, Sue Anne does not like the way I edit things, and judging from her comments, only assumes bad faith in me. As much as I can, I try to assume good faith, but the weight of Sue Anne's comments were in a word too harsh. I really have to contest the capitalization style at another discussion since I really disagree with a lot of editors regarding about capitalization guidelines, namely when it comes to bulleting. — Vesther (U * T/R * CTD) 21:40, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Addendum: I'm putting up with my beef (See my beef here) regarding about capitalization style at the discussion located at Manual of Style (Capital Letters) — Vesther (U * T/R * CTD) 21:41, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Sue Anne's comments seem to have been with respect to content rather than to contributor and seem not to have imputed bad faith to Vesther's edits but simply to have imputed a lack of appreciation for WP:NPOV or WP:OR; her conduct seems to have been, IMHO, altogether fine and quite courteous. Joe 18:47, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

• I'm sorry, but someone has to ask: So? Assuming bad faith, if it were possible to know someone else's assumptions, is a noticeboard matter how? Content disputes are not for AN/I. Warm fuzzies vs. cold pricklies are even less an AN/I matter. Geogre 19:23, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

• Well, I suppose the assumption of bad faith is not exclusively a content issue, but Geogre is nevertheless correct; if the behavior by which Vesther is troubled persists, surely another editor will intervene, in view of which an RfC might be pursued (although, FWICT, this is really much ado about a trifle). Joe 22:03, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

TJReturns

Is this a threat or what? --64.229.178.241 17:45, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

• Blocked. Petros471 17:52, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

User:Mikedk9109

This user- 7 people have had disputes with him. He is reverting to his own revisions which are vandalism. He's vandalised many articles; and is removing warnings. He always seems to get away with whatever he does, and he refuses to take other points of view; and he doesn't like any users; because they all think he vandalizes which he does. Could someone please interfere? ForestH2 t/c 18:50, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Never mind he just left Wiki. ForestH2 t/c 18:59, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I am aware of first hand of this user's conduct on wikipedia. He has made several controversial edits on the wikipedia talk page which upset a lot of people, and he is unwilling to compromise. Recently he has got rid of very important tons of very information from an article and no matter what I said or how much I tried to compromise, this user wasn't having any of it. Finally, I gave in and let him have his own way because disputing with someone so unreasonable for 3 or 4 months is exhausting. Apart from vandalism and lack of good ability to come to an agreement, Mike doesn't get along well with others. In fact, I have even tried to be nice in my dealings with him but he is very rude on top of everything else. Tonetare 19:01, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

retired or not edit summary is out of line, and the talk page should be restored. If he wants to retire, do it wtih an indef block as well for the behaviour--Crossmr 19:25, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Linkspam from User:Knowledge for All

Said user (contributions) has engaged in adding inappropriate external links referring to http://www.spiritualresearchfoundation.org to many articles. Is there an easy way to revert these en masse? --Lambiam 19:23, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Peculiar user behavior

User:S-man, User:The Fat Man Who Never Came Back, and User:Qmwnebrvtcyxuz seem to be behaving in a very peculiar way. At one moment, they appear to be very naive: at another, they seem to know an awful lot about the technical details of Misplaced Pages editing. Their writing style seems very similar. All of this at the same time that various vandals with different MOs seem to have descended on the en: Misplaced Pages... -- The Anome 22:19, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages noticeboards