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Some notes

1. Their is no POV fork with this article, because i have created 90% of the expeditions mentioned on that list, i do think the reasons given for each expedition match what the main article says, and i have rechecked most articles i created
2. Some might say, "why did you separate the casualties into Muslim and Non-Muslim, this might raise eyebrows if religious differences weren't underlying the expeditions", i did this because (1) The sources i used seperate them like this. they give 1 figure for Muslims casualties, and rest for the party which was attacked. (2) The word "enemy" suggests that the opposing party was AGAINST Muhammad or OPPOSING him, which was not the case for all those military expeditions. For example, according to this Muslim scholar, 80% of Muhammad's expeditions were offensive http://military.hawarey.org/military_english.htm , hope this explains it.
3. Regarding the duplicate refs, there are quite a lot, and i was hoping a bot (called YOBOT) would fix those problems after i posted the article--Misconceptions2 (talk) 22:05, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Reverted new column about commander on muslim side

i have reverted a column about the commander on the muslim side because:
1) sometimes there was more than 1 commander
2) only the sariyyah had sifferent commanders, the ghzawah all had muhammad as the commander
3) the data wasnt referenced, lets be consistant, if were gonna add somethign add refs
4) it makes column too wide (futhermore if somone wants to know the commander they can from the article, so there is an alternative, this is not a reason to remove but i am just pointing out alternatives)
5) Not all expeditions had commanders, some were just a group of raiding parties. others were muslims who were just ambushed--Misconceptions2 (talk) 23:03, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

1. List of expeditions of Muhammed:

I have reasons to believe that the article's info. is false and biased. Most references are unreliable sources. Zakat isn't a tax. Muslims are forbidden from attacking Women,Children,priests and the disabled. I took a look at the http://en.wikipedia.org/Occupation_of_Mecca and found that the casualties provided by the article " List of expeditions of Muhammed " don't match with the "Occupation of Mecca" article. the Last battle "Expedition of usama bin zayed" has written on it" Local population "slaughtered" by Muslims, "destroying, burning and taking as many captives as they could" according to Moshe Gil of Cambridge University" Muslims don't slaughter because as I said before, Muslims are forbidden from attacking Women,children,priests,and the disabled. "The killing of innocent non-combatants is forbidden. According to Sunni tradition, ‘Abu Bakr al-Siddiq, the first Caliph, gave these instructions to his armies: “I instruct you in ten matters: Do not kill women, children, the old, or the infirm; do not cut down fruit-bearing trees; do not destroy any town . . . ” (Malik’s Muwatta’, “Kitab al-Jihad.”)". Quran 5:53 says, “… whoso kills a soul, unless it be for murder or for wreaking corruption in the land, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind; and he who saves a life, it shall be as if he had given life to all mankind.”. I will provide more information if requested. Quran.com is my reference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.41.219.126 (talk) 20:41, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

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Multiple issues

This article recreates the same material of another article that was twice deleted: "List of killings of Muhammad" (see deletion discussions, ). Many of the issues mentioned in the previous discussions apply here as well (mainly poor and misrepresented sources). Also the creator of both articles, Misconception2, has a long history of meatpuppetry and sockpuppetry in the Muhammad topic area. I wouldn't trust his summary of primary/secondary sources. I took a brief look at this article and noticed that the "reason" column lacks context and relies on primary sources. We don't usually present similar information in a list form. The primary sources are also problematic. We should avoid turning what is said to be alleged, disputed, rumored in the primary sources into fact. I suggest we reduce this article to a simple list of expeditions, and leave the complex/disputed information to individual battle pages. Wiqi 14:08, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

This is false. Those 2 articles are completely different--Misconceptions2 (talk) 05:16, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

@Wiqi55: When I stumbled on this article, I thought I’ve seen a similar list and was confident that it was deleted a long time ago. Turns out, this user made cosmetic changes to the original article to be able to sneak it in. It remains a massive list of purposeful distortions that I don’t know where to start, but consider the following description for the demise of Banu Qurayza:

Attack Banu Qurayza because according to Muslim tradition he had been ordered to do so by the angel Gabriel. Al-Waqidi claims Muhammad had a treaty with the tribe which was torn apart. Stillman and Watt deny the authenticity of al-Waqidi. Al-Waqidi has been frequently criticized by Muslim writers, who claim that he is unreliable.

At this point, I’m not sure if it makes more sense to invest time correcting the information here or to simply wipe it all out and start over. Including @CounterTime: and @Eperoton: who are knowledgeable in Islamic history. Al-Andalusi (talk) 18:53, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

@Al-Andalusi: I generally agree with your points and those of @Wiqi55:, I just want to add an important comment: Per WP:MOS/Islam, the authenticity of reports about prophetic events should be mentioned when such sources are relied upon. However none of that is respected in this particular article, in point of fact, we have an outright violation of that policy that exceeded all of my expectations. Let's take the example you gave, it references al-Waqidi's Maghāzī. However, he is unreliable, Ibn Hanbal denounced him as a liar, and according to al-Ghunaimi, al-Waqidi is considered as one of "the most famous four, among the many, fabricators of hadith". (WAR IN ISLAMIC LAW: JUSTIFICATIONS AND REGULATIONS By Ahmed Mohsen Al-Dawoody, p. 23.) Many references are also dubious, being entirely unspecific, without even mentioning the abundant WP:SYNTHESIS. 20:02, 25 February 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

@Al-Andalusi and CounterTime: I think we could potentially have a timeline article about Muhammad's military campaigns along the lines of List of Napoleonic battles and List of World War I battles, although, as others have pointed out, the problems of historicity are of an entirely different nature. Modern historians disagree with each other about whether these events even happened, let alone on how to interpret their motivations. They also disagree with traditional Islamic scholars, who further disagree among themselves. At a minimum, I would suggest the following steps to address the most serious problems with the current article:

1. Delete the columns "Muhammad's order and reason for expedition" and "Casualties description", which have too many sourcing problems and just don't make sense here. If a reader wants to know more about the battle, they'll go to the corresponding article and read the historical analysis that should be given there.
2. Delete any rows for which no RSs are given (meaning modern mainstream historians and not primary sources, Mubarakpuri or Muir).
3. Delete rows like "Assassination of Abu Afak" which don't belong in a list of battles or even "expeditions".
4. Add a column called "Historicity", where we can indicate how the authenticity of the reports is judged by modern historians and Islamic tradition.

Eperoton (talk) 20:40, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

@Eperoton: One question about the fourth step, what about cases in which we can't possibly analyze the authenticity?

20:57, 25 February 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

@CounterTime: It's not our job to analyze it, but you probably meant something else. Could you clarify your question? Eperoton (talk) 21:01, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

@Eperoton: For example, let's say we have an account in Ibn Sa'd's Tabaqat, how do we go about finding the authenticity? (of course, it's not us who are going to analyze it, since that would constitute WP:SYNTHESIS, instead we should find out RSs that discuss the authenticity, but what to do in cases in which we can't find an RS that discuss that?)

21:38, 25 February 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

@CounterTime: If an event isn't discussed in any RSs, it shouldn't be on this list. Actually, on second thought, perhaps we don't need that column. For events whose historicity is accepted by some but not others, the details can be left to the appropriate article. Eperoton (talk) 21:45, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

@Eperoton: Another thing, this article is about "expeditions of Muhammad", so it should naturally only include ghazawat in which Muhammad participated in, however the current list contains "expeditions which he ordered but did not take part" (73 in number). Should they be included in the list? 22:38, 25 February 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

@CounterTime: I'm not sure, but the current title doesn't fit the current content well. Either the article should be renamed to something like "List of Muslim expeditions under Muhammad" or the expeditions in which he didn't take part should be removed. Eperoton (talk) 22:54, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

@Wiqi55:, @Al-Andalusi:, do you agree with the suggestions made by Eperoton? 12:57, 26 February 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

@Wiqi55: BTW I agree with your assessment that some citations are completely misleading, here's an example:

Muḥammad Ibn ʻAbd al-Wahhāb, Mukhtaṣar zād al-maʻād, p. 345.

However when looking at the meant book we find that in page 345 we only have a table of contents, and nothing of it supports what was found in the article.

12:57, 26 February 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

Thanks user:CounterTime, user:Wiqi55, user:Eperoton, and User:Al-Andalusi. It seems the issues with this article goes far beyond what is mentioned here, and stems off into most of the articles themselves. The user, Misconceptions2 has a history of supporting biased and non-neutral sources, which are inherently non-academic, violate a multitude of WP's policies surrounding neutrality, and are inaccurate representations of the sources indicated. I would recommend a thorough analysis of the articles in the list themselves as well. I also think that the time and effort CounterTime put into ridding the article of it's inherent flaws should not go to waste. Xtremedood (talk) 08:07, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

False data added by SpyBueto removed

The source: "Gabriel, Richard A. (2008), Muhammad, Islam's first great general, University of Oklahoma Press, p. 73, ISBN 978-0-8061-3860-2"
Does not say: "The Meccans had sold property Muslims left behind after the Hijra and invested it in the caravans" His edit therefore has been reverted. Find a reliable source that says that Muslim property was stolen and sold, and that the purpose of the raid was to take back stolen property, before adding back these comments. --Misconceptions2 (talk) 02:48, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Controversial Islamic Article-90% of page wiped out by Muslims, possible bias

• See before and after , article went from 110kb to 30kb :

What it used to be like
What it was changed to by group of Muslims

• This is a controversial Topic on Islam. I feel the decision to delete data on this topic by 3 people: user:Eperoton, User:Al-Andalusi, User:CounterTime should be looked at again. This is because I worry there maybe a conflict of interest since they are Muslim and the article is about their religion.
• I worry because the decision to remove the data was made entirely by the above 3 people ALONE and since all 3 are Muslims there is possible bias?
• The article had a list of 100 battles of Muhammad. They changed it so it has about 20. What happened to the other 80. Are they not relevant?
• I want to have this decision looked at again right here. Whether so much data should have been removed with the input of the wider community this time? A controversial article like this warrants it, instead of a discussion amongst a small demographic. I feel the original discussion could only have gone 1 way. --Misconceptions2 (talk) 05:06, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

--Misconceptions2 (talk) 04:43, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

@Misconceptions2: The changes were made based on a consensus achieved in the section "Multiple issues" above. You are certainly welcome to join the debate and pursue WP:DR. Please start by addressing the policy issues raised in that discussion. Thanks. Eperoton (talk) 10:02, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

@Misconceptions2: Please read the previous discussion and the consensus reached therein, https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:List_of_expeditions_of_Muhammad#Multiple_issues

If you have any objections to any point there please discuss it in that particular thread. We'll make changes after reaching a consensus. But in the time being, we'll simple get back to the previous version.

Regards,

20:20, 14 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

Cant you see as of RIGHT now there is no consensus. This will turn into an edit war the way its going. I have invited many people who edited this article to comment here. I hope it does not turn into a big edit war.--Misconceptions2 (talk) 20:43, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

@Misconceptions2: You didn't question, object or address anything from this discussion https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:List_of_expeditions_of_Muhammad#Multiple_issues so we can't even speak of there being a consensus (in which you're involved) or not. Please discuss there. I also hope that this wont turn into an edit war. 22:13, 14 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

Summary as of 14-03-2016

@CounterTime, So far you have 3 people against mass changes you made:

• user:Misconceptions2
• user:Edward321
• user:Sajithgayashan

I dont know how many people you have who are FOR the changes as you went ahead and made changes which am not even sure user:Al-Andalusi, user:Eperoton agree with. You went above and beyond. So you hardly have a consensus now.--Misconceptions2 (talk) 23:58, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

@Misconceptions2: Changes are made only when consensus is made, simple. I only edited this page only after discussing here and coming into a common agreement: https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:List_of_expeditions_of_Muhammad#Multiple_issues

If you want to make changes please discuss there. Simple reverts that do not even mention an edit summary are simply examples of edit warring rather than attempts at making constructive criticism, they aren't argument either as you make it look like.

AGAIN PLEASE DISCUSS HERE IF YOU HAVE ANY OBJECTIONS: https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:List_of_expeditions_of_Muhammad#Multiple_issues

Thanks in advance.

00:04, 15 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

@Misconceptions2: To elaborate on CounterTime's comment, note that WP:DR is achieved by discussion rather than counting votes. So far, neither you nor the other two editors who have attempted to reinsert the disputed content have addressed the substance of objections in the "Multiple issues" section above. I'm not yet touching the article because I'm interpreting WP:BRD in favor of your long-standing version despite the lapse of time since CounterTime's edits, but remember that WP:ONUS for achieving consensus rests with the party seeking inclusion of disputed content. I propose to you, Sajithgayashan and Edward321 to stop edit warring and start advancing substantive arguments. Eperoton (talk) 00:12, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Misconceptions2's only argument is that Muslims should not be able to write on such articles, because they are Muslims. This is a ridiculous personal attack, which shows his bias and animosity to this group of people. This is clearly in violation of WP:PA. In reality, the bias comes from Misconceptions2 himself, whose works are strongly correlated with content from anti-Islamic hate sites like WikiIslam.net , . CounterTime was correct in removing the irrelevant materials, which are not related to the article. Prophet Muhammad's ﷺ military life should be the focus of such an article, not the campaigns of others. Also, the articles published by Misconceptions2, which are numerous, are biased, violates WP:NPOV, often utilizes misattributed sources, are often primary sources, constitute original research, and are non-academic. Many of these materials resemble previously deleted articles, as mentioned above by Wiqi55. The removal of these materials was therefore a much needed step in closer adherance to WP's policies. Xtremedood (talk) 03:16, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Why Muslim delete so much article. What is problem. I agree with "I'm interpreting WP:BRD in favor of your long-standing version despite the lapse of time ", I agree same.--Sajithgayashan (talk) 03:42, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Who is this Sajithgayashan who is speaking in broken English ? Sounds like a sockpuppet for someone Alexis Ivanov (talk) 03:59, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

If your trying to say his my sock then your wrong. Just because I used socks in the past does not mean I always will. But its my fault, that you think this. A convict will always be a convict till the day he dies. And I have been convicted of using socks. I think there is another user here using socks but I wont say which ones I suspect are the socks without REASONABLE certainty. --Misconceptions2 (talk) 12:48, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

@Alexis Ivanov: It's pretty suspicious that all these disputes began only after the re-coming of Misconceptions2 (talk · contribs), and before his absence no one actually raised any objection. Of course I'm not going to draw raw conclusions from that but it's just weird and suspicious-to say the least. 17:01, 15 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

You are right. They did aand? I am the ones who raised the objecticions and highlighted this at ANI and COI--Misconceptions2 (talk) 17:04, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

@Misconceptions2: "They did aand?" I left the conclusion to be drawn by the typical reader. 17:08, 15 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

Proposal

@Misconceptions2, CounterTime, Xtremedood, Sajithgayashan, Edward321, Alexis Ivanov, and Wiqi55: @Al-Andalusi: This dispute already involves a good number of editors, and per WP:RFC, I will make another attempt to reach consensus on this talk page before escalating WP:DR. The core of my proposal is to take Watt's Muhammad at Medina (online version) as a model for this article. It is still a preeminent academic reference on the subject. On page 339, the book contains a "List of Expeditions and Dates" with the following columns: Date (AH/AD), Destination/Name, Opponents, Leader, Number of participants, Result, and References (page numbers for Ibn Ishaq and al-Waqidi). This should address several concerns raised on this talk page before:

1. Inclusion of expeditions that Muhammad didn't participate in is thereby sourced and clarified, without the need for establishing whether or not Muhammad gave the order for each one. The page should be renamed to something like "List of expeditions under Muhammad" or "List of early Muslim expeditions", and it provides a basis for excluding rows without reliably sourced relevance or historicity, some of which seem to have been inherited from lists of "killings".
2. It provides a basis for removing the column "Muhammad's order and reason for expedition", with all its previously mentioned problems per WP:RS and WP:SYNTHESIS. There's a good reason why this information isn't included in Watt's table or generally in lists of battles: trying to cram historical analysis of why events occurred into a table cannot possibly do justice to the subject. This should be left to the individual articles.
3. It likewise provides a basis for removing the column "Casualties description". Attempting to list precise casualty figures gives WP:UNDUE weight to (often primary) sources that report such numbers over source-critical RSs which treat their accuracy with skepticism.

I think these changes would go a long way toward making the article policy-compliant while avoiding removing content that can be made compliant with policies. Eperoton (talk) 11:44, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

This is basicallly gonna remove 50%-70% of the content and I do not agree with it. If your not happy with what is written, find a source that gives a different opinion. Everything written here is given usually as the opinion of an academic e.g "Watt says", "Muparakpuri says". If your not happy with what they said then you should input what your counter source says e.g " says", because so far EVERYTHING written is sourced PROPEPRLY.--Misconceptions2 (talk) 12:46, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

@Misconceptions2: To start with, you have to justify why we should structure the list of expeditions in a way that's not consistent with the way this list -- or other similar lists, for that matter -- is presented in RSs. Expanding the table by 50%-70% is not an argument. Eperoton (talk) 13:03, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

If you remove sourced data it will cause arguements. If you add sourced data then it will not cause arguements. All sourced data on this page are from Muslim scholars or an academic source.--Misconceptions2 (talk) 13:04, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

You should really consult the cited policies, in particular WP:ONUS: "While information must be verifiable in order to be included in an article, this does not mean that all verifiable information must be included in an article. Consensus may determine that certain information does not improve an article, and that it should be omitted or presented instead in a different article. The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content" (emphasis mine). Adding this column has already caused arguments, and objections have already been presented on this talk page. You have yet to address them. Eperoton (talk) 13:21, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

There was never any consensus to REMOVE ALL verified sourced text. There isnt even now.. Per BRD we should all back all the sourced text. What you did not say is after that I think we should discuss which parts should be removed and why. --Misconceptions2 (talk) 13:24, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Huh? How is that relevant to WP:ONUS? If you don't know what the word "onus" means, please look it up. And WP:BRD has nothing to do with sourcing. I'll take a pause from this discussion to give you chance to formulate a better response to the already presented arguments and give others a chance to state their opinions. Eperoton (talk) 13:47, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

You're trying to remove sourced statements from an article to make your prophet look better. You shouldn't be editing this.142.105.159.60 (talk) 15:25, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Good grief, a third proponent of the Muslim Conspiracy Theory. They don't seem to be socks, either. I'll go back to waiting for substantive counter-arguments... Eperoton (talk) 15:37, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Alright, how's this? The lede says, and I quote "This list of battles by Muhammad, also includes a list of battles by Muhammad's order", as in battles Muhammad ordered to be fought.

If you're so offended by this article, why not split it into two, one including battles he fought in personally, and one of battles he commanded his followers to fight for him?142.105.159.60 (talk) 16:44, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Or why not fight for both. Its a trivial excuse to delete data. By the way, do you have a user account 142.105.159.60?--Misconceptions2 (talk) 16:47, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Dear all, it looks like someone is off-site canvassing at Reddit here. Al-Andalusi (talk) 15:51, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Interesting. Now what?--Misconceptions2 (talk) 15:57, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Sigh. Good catch, Al-Andalusi. It's sad and tiresome to see this display of mob mentality instead of substantive discussion. I suggest we bring this to admin attention. Eperoton (talk) 16:03, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

142.105.159.60 if you posted that on reddit (am not saying you did so please do not get offended). Please can you remove it. It does not help my efforts to fix this article. --Misconceptions2 (talk) 16:06, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

@Eperoton: I think the current problem is that the current wiki article (after the bold revert by 142.105.159.60) is mostly a copy paste from here http://wikiislam.net/List_of_Killings_Ordered_or_Supported_by_Muhammad#cite_note-Wahid_327-333-80 (see also: http://wikiislam.net/List_of_Killings_Ordered_or_Supported_by_Muhammad#Main_Sources)

I think that, until our previous arguments are challenged, we will: (summarizing the previous arguments)

* "Delete the columns "Muhammad's order and reason for expedition" and "Casualties description", which have too many sourcing problems and just don't make sense here. If a reader wants to know more about the battle, they'll go to the corresponding article and read the historical analysis that should be given there." (Ep)

* "Delete rows like "Assassination of Abu Afak" which don't belong in a list of battles or even "expeditions"." (Ep)

* "This article is about "expeditions of Muhammad", so it should naturally only include ghazawat in which Muhammad participated in, however the current list contains "expeditions which he ordered but did not take part" so these entries should be deleted—we wont even mention all the problems with the authenticity of these numerous expeditions which he allegedly ordered" (CT)

16:50, 15 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

@Misconceptions2: WP:MOS/Islam is strict on that one must give the authenticity of any prophetic reports. As such either the dozens of reports you cited should mention their authenticity, or else they must be removed altogether. 16:59, 15 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

@Eperoton: I also want to raise a question, is the column "Notable primary sources" necessary at all?

17:07, 15 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

Proposal: Changes until no consensus? Rubbish

Clearly there was no consensus in first place. You ended discussion without input of other demographics. In fact no one else even inputted to the original discussion other than muslims. So it was only gonna go one way. I will argue there was no consensus in first place and furthermore as the old version of this article was nominated for afd thats the one that should stay there until its over and should stay there until a consensus is reached here as agreed by me, sajith, and eperton. Furthermore I think and user:Edward321 agree with the old version being there thats why they made the reverts. So thats 5.--Misconceptions2 (talk) 17:09, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

@Misconceptions2: A consensus was reached before your re-apparition. If you want to change the new consensus you'd have to first make discussions in the talk page before making any edit. Simple. 17:18, 15 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

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