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Some notes

1. Their is no POV fork with this article, because i have created 90% of the expeditions mentioned on that list, i do think the reasons given for each expedition match what the main article says, and i have rechecked most articles i created
2. Some might say, "why did you separate the casualties into Muslim and Non-Muslim, this might raise eyebrows if religious differences weren't underlying the expeditions", i did this because (1) The sources i used seperate them like this. they give 1 figure for Muslims casualties, and rest for the party which was attacked. (2) The word "enemy" suggests that the opposing party was AGAINST Muhammad or OPPOSING him, which was not the case for all those military expeditions. For example, according to this Muslim scholar, 80% of Muhammad's expeditions were offensive http://military.hawarey.org/military_english.htm , hope this explains it.
3. Regarding the duplicate refs, there are quite a lot, and i was hoping a bot (called YOBOT) would fix those problems after i posted the article--Misconceptions2 (talk) 22:05, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Reverted new column about commander on muslim side

i have reverted a column about the commander on the muslim side because:
1) sometimes there was more than 1 commander
2) only the sariyyah had sifferent commanders, the ghzawah all had muhammad as the commander
3) the data wasnt referenced, lets be consistant, if were gonna add somethign add refs
4) it makes column too wide (futhermore if somone wants to know the commander they can from the article, so there is an alternative, this is not a reason to remove but i am just pointing out alternatives)
5) Not all expeditions had commanders, some were just a group of raiding parties. others were muslims who were just ambushed--Misconceptions2 (talk) 23:03, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

1. List of expeditions of Muhammed:

I have reasons to believe that the article's info. is false and biased. Most references are unreliable sources. Zakat isn't a tax. Muslims are forbidden from attacking Women,Children,priests and the disabled. I took a look at the http://en.wikipedia.org/Occupation_of_Mecca and found that the casualties provided by the article " List of expeditions of Muhammed " don't match with the "Occupation of Mecca" article. the Last battle "Expedition of usama bin zayed" has written on it" Local population "slaughtered" by Muslims, "destroying, burning and taking as many captives as they could" according to Moshe Gil of Cambridge University" Muslims don't slaughter because as I said before, Muslims are forbidden from attacking Women,children,priests,and the disabled. "The killing of innocent non-combatants is forbidden. According to Sunni tradition, ‘Abu Bakr al-Siddiq, the first Caliph, gave these instructions to his armies: “I instruct you in ten matters: Do not kill women, children, the old, or the infirm; do not cut down fruit-bearing trees; do not destroy any town . . . ” (Malik’s Muwatta’, “Kitab al-Jihad.”)". Quran 5:53 says, “… whoso kills a soul, unless it be for murder or for wreaking corruption in the land, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind; and he who saves a life, it shall be as if he had given life to all mankind.”. I will provide more information if requested. Quran.com is my reference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.41.219.126 (talk) 20:41, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

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Multiple issues

This article recreates the same material of another article that was twice deleted: "List of killings of Muhammad" (see deletion discussions, ). Many of the issues mentioned in the previous discussions apply here as well (mainly poor and misrepresented sources). Also the creator of both articles, Misconception2, has a long history of meatpuppetry and sockpuppetry in the Muhammad topic area. I wouldn't trust his summary of primary/secondary sources. I took a brief look at this article and noticed that the "reason" column lacks context and relies on primary sources. We don't usually present similar information in a list form. The primary sources are also problematic. We should avoid turning what is said to be alleged, disputed, rumored in the primary sources into fact. I suggest we reduce this article to a simple list of expeditions, and leave the complex/disputed information to individual battle pages. Wiqi 14:08, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

This is false. Those 2 articles are completely different--Misconceptions2 (talk) 05:16, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

@Wiqi55: When I stumbled on this article, I thought I’ve seen a similar list and was confident that it was deleted a long time ago. Turns out, this user made cosmetic changes to the original article to be able to sneak it in. It remains a massive list of purposeful distortions that I don’t know where to start, but consider the following description for the demise of Banu Qurayza:

Attack Banu Qurayza because according to Muslim tradition he had been ordered to do so by the angel Gabriel. Al-Waqidi claims Muhammad had a treaty with the tribe which was torn apart. Stillman and Watt deny the authenticity of al-Waqidi. Al-Waqidi has been frequently criticized by Muslim writers, who claim that he is unreliable.

At this point, I’m not sure if it makes more sense to invest time correcting the information here or to simply wipe it all out and start over. Including @CounterTime: and @Eperoton: who are knowledgeable in Islamic history. Al-Andalusi (talk) 18:53, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

@Al-Andalusi: I generally agree with your points and those of @Wiqi55:, I just want to add an important comment: Per WP:MOS/Islam, the authenticity of reports about prophetic events should be mentioned when such sources are relied upon. However none of that is respected in this particular article, in point of fact, we have an outright violation of that policy that exceeded all of my expectations. Let's take the example you gave, it references al-Waqidi's Maghāzī. However, he is unreliable, Ibn Hanbal denounced him as a liar, and according to al-Ghunaimi, al-Waqidi is considered as one of "the most famous four, among the many, fabricators of hadith". (WAR IN ISLAMIC LAW: JUSTIFICATIONS AND REGULATIONS By Ahmed Mohsen Al-Dawoody, p. 23.) Many references are also dubious, being entirely unspecific, without even mentioning the abundant WP:SYNTHESIS. 20:02, 25 February 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

@Al-Andalusi and CounterTime: I think we could potentially have a timeline article about Muhammad's military campaigns along the lines of List of Napoleonic battles and List of World War I battles, although, as others have pointed out, the problems of historicity are of an entirely different nature. Modern historians disagree with each other about whether these events even happened, let alone on how to interpret their motivations. They also disagree with traditional Islamic scholars, who further disagree among themselves. At a minimum, I would suggest the following steps to address the most serious problems with the current article:

1. Delete the columns "Muhammad's order and reason for expedition" and "Casualties description", which have too many sourcing problems and just don't make sense here. If a reader wants to know more about the battle, they'll go to the corresponding article and read the historical analysis that should be given there.
2. Delete any rows for which no RSs are given (meaning modern mainstream historians and not primary sources, Mubarakpuri or Muir).
3. Delete rows like "Assassination of Abu Afak" which don't belong in a list of battles or even "expeditions".
4. Add a column called "Historicity", where we can indicate how the authenticity of the reports is judged by modern historians and Islamic tradition.

Eperoton (talk) 20:40, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

@Eperoton: One question about the fourth step, what about cases in which we can't possibly analyze the authenticity?

20:57, 25 February 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

@CounterTime: It's not our job to analyze it, but you probably meant something else. Could you clarify your question? Eperoton (talk) 21:01, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

@Eperoton: For example, let's say we have an account in Ibn Sa'd's Tabaqat, how do we go about finding the authenticity? (of course, it's not us who are going to analyze it, since that would constitute WP:SYNTHESIS, instead we should find out RSs that discuss the authenticity, but what to do in cases in which we can't find an RS that discuss that?)

21:38, 25 February 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

@CounterTime: If an event isn't discussed in any RSs, it shouldn't be on this list. Actually, on second thought, perhaps we don't need that column. For events whose historicity is accepted by some but not others, the details can be left to the appropriate article. Eperoton (talk) 21:45, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

@Eperoton: Another thing, this article is about "expeditions of Muhammad", so it should naturally only include ghazawat in which Muhammad participated in, however the current list contains "expeditions which he ordered but did not take part" (73 in number). Should they be included in the list? 22:38, 25 February 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

@CounterTime: I'm not sure, but the current title doesn't fit the current content well. Either the article should be renamed to something like "List of Muslim expeditions under Muhammad" or the expeditions in which he didn't take part should be removed. Eperoton (talk) 22:54, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

@Wiqi55:, @Al-Andalusi:, do you agree with the suggestions made by Eperoton? 12:57, 26 February 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

@Wiqi55: BTW I agree with your assessment that some citations are completely misleading, here's an example:

Muḥammad Ibn ʻAbd al-Wahhāb, Mukhtaṣar zād al-maʻād, p. 345.

However when looking at the meant book we find that in page 345 we only have a table of contents, and nothing of it supports what was found in the article.

12:57, 26 February 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

Thanks user:CounterTime, user:Wiqi55, user:Eperoton, and User:Al-Andalusi. It seems the issues with this article goes far beyond what is mentioned here, and stems off into most of the articles themselves. The user, Misconceptions2 has a history of supporting biased and non-neutral sources, which are inherently non-academic, violate a multitude of WP's policies surrounding neutrality, and are inaccurate representations of the sources indicated. I would recommend a thorough analysis of the articles in the list themselves as well. I also think that the time and effort CounterTime put into ridding the article of it's inherent flaws should not go to waste. Xtremedood (talk) 08:07, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

False data added by SpyBueto removed

The source: "Gabriel, Richard A. (2008), Muhammad, Islam's first great general, University of Oklahoma Press, p. 73, ISBN 978-0-8061-3860-2"
Does not say: "The Meccans had sold property Muslims left behind after the Hijra and invested it in the caravans" His edit therefore has been reverted. Find a reliable source that says that Muslim property was stolen and sold, and that the purpose of the raid was to take back stolen property, before adding back these comments. --Misconceptions2 (talk) 02:48, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Controversial Islamic Article-90% of page wiped out by Muslims, possible bias

• See before and after , article went from 110kb to 30kb :

What it used to be like
What it was changed to by group of Muslims

• This is a controversial Topic on Islam. I feel the decision to delete data on this topic by 3 people: user:Eperoton, User:Al-Andalusi, User:CounterTime should be looked at again. This is because I worry there maybe a conflict of interest since they are Muslim and the article is about their religion.
• I worry because the decision to remove the data was made entirely by the above 3 people ALONE and since all 3 are Muslims there is possible bias?
• The article had a list of 100 battles of Muhammad. They changed it so it has about 20. What happened to the other 80. Are they not relevant?
• I want to have this decision looked at again right here. Whether so much data should have been removed with the input of the wider community this time? A controversial article like this warrants it, instead of a discussion amongst a small demographic. I feel the original discussion could only have gone 1 way. --Misconceptions2 (talk) 05:06, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

--Misconceptions2 (talk) 04:43, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

@Misconceptions2: The changes were made based on a consensus achieved in the section "Multiple issues" above. You are certainly welcome to join the debate and pursue WP:DR. Please start by addressing the policy issues raised in that discussion. Thanks. Eperoton (talk) 10:02, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

@Misconceptions2: Please read the previous discussion and the consensus reached therein, https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:List_of_expeditions_of_Muhammad#Multiple_issues

If you have any objections to any point there please discuss it in that particular thread. We'll make changes after reaching a consensus. But in the time being, we'll simple get back to the previous version.

Regards,

20:20, 14 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

Cant you see as of RIGHT now there is no consensus. This will turn into an edit war the way its going. I have invited many people who edited this article to comment here. I hope it does not turn into a big edit war.--Misconceptions2 (talk) 20:43, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

@Misconceptions2: You didn't question, object or address anything from this discussion https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:List_of_expeditions_of_Muhammad#Multiple_issues so we can't even speak of there being a consensus (in which you're involved) or not. Please discuss there. I also hope that this wont turn into an edit war. 22:13, 14 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

Summary as of 14-03-2016

@CounterTime, So far you have 3 people against mass changes you made:

• user:Misconceptions2
• user:Edward321
• user:Sajithgayashan

I dont know how many people you have who are FOR the changes as you went ahead and made changes which am not even sure user:Al-Andalusi, user:Eperoton agree with. You went above and beyond. So you hardly have a consensus now.--Misconceptions2 (talk) 23:58, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

@Misconceptions2: Changes are made only when consensus is made, simple. I only edited this page only after discussing here and coming into a common agreement: https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:List_of_expeditions_of_Muhammad#Multiple_issues

If you want to make changes please discuss there. Simple reverts that do not even mention an edit summary are simply examples of edit warring rather than attempts at making constructive criticism, they aren't argument either as you make it look like.

AGAIN PLEASE DISCUSS HERE IF YOU HAVE ANY OBJECTIONS: https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:List_of_expeditions_of_Muhammad#Multiple_issues

Thanks in advance.

00:04, 15 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

@Misconceptions2: To elaborate on CounterTime's comment, note that WP:DR is achieved by discussion rather than counting votes. So far, neither you nor the other two editors who have attempted to reinsert the disputed content have addressed the substance of objections in the "Multiple issues" section above. I'm not yet touching the article because I'm interpreting WP:BRD in favor of your long-standing version despite the lapse of time since CounterTime's edits, but remember that WP:ONUS for achieving consensus rests with the party seeking inclusion of disputed content. I propose to you, Sajithgayashan and Edward321 to stop edit warring and start advancing substantive arguments. Eperoton (talk) 00:12, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Misconceptions2's only argument is that Muslims should not be able to write on such articles, because they are Muslims. This is a ridiculous personal attack, which shows his bias and animosity to this group of people. This is clearly in violation of WP:PA. In reality, the bias comes from Misconceptions2 himself, whose works are strongly correlated with content from anti-Islamic hate sites like WikiIslam.net , . CounterTime was correct in removing the irrelevant materials, which are not related to the article. Prophet Muhammad's ﷺ military life should be the focus of such an article, not the campaigns of others. Also, the articles published by Misconceptions2, which are numerous, are biased, violates WP:NPOV, often utilizes misattributed sources, are often primary sources, constitute original research, and are non-academic. Many of these materials resemble previously deleted articles, as mentioned above by Wiqi55. The removal of these materials was therefore a much needed step in closer adherance to WP's policies. Xtremedood (talk) 03:16, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Why Muslim delete so much article. What is problem. I agree with "I'm interpreting WP:BRD in favor of your long-standing version despite the lapse of time ", I agree same.--Sajithgayashan (talk) 03:42, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Who is this Sajithgayashan who is speaking in broken English ? Sounds like a sockpuppet for someone Alexis Ivanov (talk) 03:59, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

If your trying to say his my sock then your wrong. Just because I used socks in the past does not mean I always will. But its my fault, that you think this. A convict will always be a convict till the day he dies. And I have been convicted of using socks. I think there is another user here using socks but I wont say which ones I suspect are the socks without REASONABLE certainty. --Misconceptions2 (talk) 12:48, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

I never said he was your sockpuppet, it looks like he is having an attitude and needs to be controlled. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 00:53, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

@Alexis Ivanov: It's pretty suspicious that all these disputes began only after the re-coming of Misconceptions2 (talk · contribs), and before his absence no one actually raised any objection. Of course I'm not going to draw raw conclusions from that but it's just weird and suspicious-to say the least. 17:01, 15 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

You are right. They did aand? I am the ones who raised the objecticions and highlighted this at ANI and COI--Misconceptions2 (talk) 17:04, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

@Misconceptions2: "They did aand?" I left the conclusion to be drawn by the typical reader. 17:08, 15 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

Proposal

@Misconceptions2, CounterTime, Xtremedood, Sajithgayashan, Edward321, Alexis Ivanov, and Wiqi55: @Al-Andalusi: This dispute already involves a good number of editors, and per WP:RFC, I will make another attempt to reach consensus on this talk page before escalating WP:DR. The core of my proposal is to take Watt's Muhammad at Medina (online version) as a model for this article. It is still a preeminent academic reference on the subject. On page 339, the book contains a "List of Expeditions and Dates" with the following columns: Date (AH/AD), Destination/Name, Opponents, Leader, Number of participants, Result, and References (page numbers for Ibn Ishaq and al-Waqidi). This should address several concerns raised on this talk page before:

1. Inclusion of expeditions that Muhammad didn't participate in is thereby sourced and clarified, without the need for establishing whether or not Muhammad gave the order for each one. The page should be renamed to something like "List of expeditions under Muhammad" or "List of early Muslim expeditions", and it provides a basis for excluding rows without reliably sourced relevance or historicity, some of which seem to have been inherited from lists of "killings".
2. It provides a basis for removing the column "Muhammad's order and reason for expedition", with all its previously mentioned problems per WP:RS and WP:SYNTHESIS. There's a good reason why this information isn't included in Watt's table or generally in lists of battles: trying to cram historical analysis of why events occurred into a table cannot possibly do justice to the subject. This should be left to the individual articles.
3. It likewise provides a basis for removing the column "Casualties description". Attempting to list precise casualty figures gives WP:UNDUE weight to (often primary) sources that report such numbers over source-critical RSs which treat their accuracy with skepticism.

I think these changes would go a long way toward making the article policy-compliant while avoiding removing content that can be made compliant with policies. Eperoton (talk) 11:44, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

This is basicallly gonna remove 50%-70% of the content and I do not agree with it. If your not happy with what is written, find a source that gives a different opinion. Everything written here is given usually as the opinion of an academic e.g "Watt says", "Muparakpuri says". If your not happy with what they said then you should input what your counter source says e.g " says", because so far EVERYTHING written is sourced PROPEPRLY.--Misconceptions2 (talk) 12:46, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

@Misconceptions2: To start with, you have to justify why we should structure the list of expeditions in a way that's not consistent with the way this list -- or other similar lists, for that matter -- is presented in RSs. Expanding the table by 50%-70% is not an argument. Eperoton (talk) 13:03, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

If you remove sourced data it will cause arguements. If you add sourced data then it will not cause arguements. All sourced data on this page are from Muslim scholars or an academic source.--Misconceptions2 (talk) 13:04, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

You should really consult the cited policies, in particular WP:ONUS: "While information must be verifiable in order to be included in an article, this does not mean that all verifiable information must be included in an article. Consensus may determine that certain information does not improve an article, and that it should be omitted or presented instead in a different article. The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content" (emphasis mine). Adding this column has already caused arguments, and objections have already been presented on this talk page. You have yet to address them. Eperoton (talk) 13:21, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

There was never any consensus to REMOVE ALL verified sourced text. There isnt even now.. Per BRD we should all back all the sourced text. What you did not say is after that I think we should discuss which parts should be removed and why. --Misconceptions2 (talk) 13:24, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Huh? How is that relevant to WP:ONUS? If you don't know what the word "onus" means, please look it up. And WP:BRD has nothing to do with sourcing. I'll take a pause from this discussion to give you chance to formulate a better response to the already presented arguments and give others a chance to state their opinions. Eperoton (talk) 13:47, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

You're trying to remove sourced statements from an article to make your prophet look better. You shouldn't be editing this.142.105.159.60 (talk) 15:25, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Good grief, a third proponent of the Muslim Conspiracy Theory. They don't seem to be socks, either. I'll go back to waiting for substantive counter-arguments... Eperoton (talk) 15:37, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Alright, how's this? The lede says, and I quote "This list of battles by Muhammad, also includes a list of battles by Muhammad's order", as in battles Muhammad ordered to be fought.

If you're so offended by this article, why not split it into two, one including battles he fought in personally, and one of battles he commanded his followers to fight for him?142.105.159.60 (talk) 16:44, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Or why not fight for both. Its a trivial excuse to delete data. By the way, do you have a user account 142.105.159.60?--Misconceptions2 (talk) 16:47, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Dear all, it looks like someone is off-site canvassing at Reddit here. Al-Andalusi (talk) 15:51, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Interesting. Now what?--Misconceptions2 (talk) 15:57, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Sigh. Good catch, Al-Andalusi. It's sad and tiresome to see this display of mob mentality instead of substantive discussion. I suggest we bring this to admin attention. Eperoton (talk) 16:03, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

142.105.159.60 if you posted that on reddit (am not saying you did so please do not get offended). Please can you remove it. It does not help my efforts to fix this article. --Misconceptions2 (talk) 16:06, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

@Eperoton: I think the current problem is that the current wiki article (after the bold revert by 142.105.159.60) is mostly a copy paste from here http://wikiislam.net/List_of_Killings_Ordered_or_Supported_by_Muhammad#cite_note-Wahid_327-333-80 (see also: http://wikiislam.net/List_of_Killings_Ordered_or_Supported_by_Muhammad#Main_Sources)

I think that, until our previous arguments are challenged, we will: (summarizing the previous arguments)

* "Delete the columns "Muhammad's order and reason for expedition" and "Casualties description", which have too many sourcing problems and just don't make sense here. If a reader wants to know more about the battle, they'll go to the corresponding article and read the historical analysis that should be given there." (Ep)

* "Delete rows like "Assassination of Abu Afak" which don't belong in a list of battles or even "expeditions"." (Ep)

* "This article is about "expeditions of Muhammad", so it should naturally only include ghazawat in which Muhammad participated in, however the current list contains "expeditions which he ordered but did not take part" so these entries should be deleted—we wont even mention all the problems with the authenticity of these numerous expeditions which he allegedly ordered" (CT)

16:50, 15 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

@Misconceptions2: WP:MOS/Islam is strict on that one must give the authenticity of any prophetic reports. As such either the dozens of reports you cited should mention their authenticity, or else they must be removed altogether. 16:59, 15 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

@Eperoton: I also want to raise a question, is the column "Notable primary sources" necessary at all?

17:07, 15 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

@CounterTime: I think we should consider this article on its own merits, regardless of its "inspiration", unless there is actual plagiarism involved. I don't see a problem with including expeditions in which Muhammad didn't participate in into an appropriately renamed article, especially in light of Watt's table. Listing primary sources, although not "necessary", also doesn't seem problematic if the citations are backed up by secondary sources. Eperoton (talk) 19:01, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

@Eperoton: Actually I invite you to compare the two articles, one can easily spot the plagiarism.

I don't think that the Sarayyah should be included because there is no general agreement on them, and the hence the dispute will only grow over time. That's why I always prefer to base things on common grounds. The given table by Watt relies heavily on al-Waqidi and Ibn Ishaq, the former is unreliable according to traditionalist arguments (see previous discussion) whereas Ibn Ishaq will depend on whether the given chain is authentic. This will require an extremely important amount of work. So why not delve into such controversies when we can simply list the ghazawat in the most unambiguous fashion?

"doesn't seem problematic if the citations are backed up by secondary sources" But can we consider for instance al-Waqidi's Maghazi to be primary and include it even do it is unreliable?

19:17, 15 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

@CounterTime: Based on revision histories, it looks like the WikiIslam page was copied from this one rather than the other way around.

As elsewhere on WP, we should aim to reflect how RSs present the subject. Based on its stature in academia, Watt's book is the strongest RS on the subject per WP criteria. Muhammad's biography in EI2 also refers the reader to Watt's table. Using it as a model is a policy-compliant way to build the table. There are certainly differences of opinion about historicity and interpretation of primary sources, and these should be treated in the relevant articles.

I'm neutral about inclusion of the primary sources column. I don't think including it improves the article, because the reader interested in this level of detail will consult the article for the specific event. I also don't think it is problematic, as long as the citation reflect RSs. Unlike the removed columns, it does not involve compressing essay-form historical analyses into table cells. Eperoton (talk) 01:29, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

Actually the Wikiislam.net version is older than this version, see here (archived here ). I have been watching them for some years now, they converge pages, create new pages with the same or similar materials, delete history, and try hard to censor any edits that they don't agree with. Also you often can't trust the history on private Wiki's.

• 07:55, 27 January 2015 Axius (Talk | contribs) changed visibility of a revision on page List of Killings Ordered or Supported by Muhammad: content hidden, edit summary hidden and username hidden
• 13:46, 13 January 2015 Sahab (Talk | contribs) deleted page List of Killings Ordered or Supported by Muhammad
• 12:57, 22 December 2014 WikiSysop (Talk | contribs) (Page edit blocked for "List of Killings Ordered or Supported by Muhammad" by user *180.151.0.146 - Vandalism detected (Edit Monitor code #13))
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• 09:09, 26 December 2011 Sahab (Talk | contribs) automatically marked revision 68182 of page List of Killings Ordered or Supported by Muhammad patrolled

.Xtremedood (talk) 08:07, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

I think the solution is far more simple than what is being proposed. If we look at other similar articles, such as List of World War II battles, or List of World War I battles, it simply contains the names of the battles/expeditions, as a list article should be doing. The same should be applied here. There should simply be the names of the expeditions and the year in which it is believed to have taken place. This solves a lot of our issues and adheres to WP's policies. Xtremedood (talk) 08:14, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

Excellent detective work Xtremedood, very good, let's cut the grasses and see the snakes crawling Alexis Ivanov (talk) 09:24, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

@Misconceptions2:, please address this concern. Did you copy and paste text from WikiIslam into this or other related articles? Copying it without attribution would be a violation of their license.

@Xtremedood and Alexis Ivanov: Unlike RSs, other WP articles are controversial as a justification for editing decisions. Above I made a different, though related argument: that other lists of military events in RSs do not normally attempt to include an analysis of reasons for the events. Eperoton (talk) 11:50, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

@Eperoton: Yeah, but you miss my point which was that there are great divergences of opinion on the Sarayah, where some deem reports on one to be authentic whereas others consider it to be weak. Why not only include things which are easily agreed upon, such as the 28 maghazi? (If you are not convinced that there are large differences of opinion on the sarayah please refer to Note )

Another point is that the sarayah refer "to expeditions allegedly sent by the Prophet for several objectives, such as to preach Islam, get news of what the Quraysh were planning, return stolen property, fight against those who were preparing to attack Medina, kill an individual for the same reason, fight those who killed one of the Prophet’s messengers and, in five instances, to destroy Quraysh idols after the taking of Mecca." (Ahmed al-Dawoody, The Islamic Law of War: Justifications and Regulations, pp. 29–30)

These however rarely connote a military meaning, so why should they be added in a table on military expeditions?

12:15, 16 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

Note :

In most instances, biographers give their account in the form of a narration of the incidents, without explaining the background and objectives of these expeditions, and they give different totals for these incidents, such as 35, 38, 47, and 56. These differences indicate that each biographer arrived at his own conception of what constituted a sariyah. For example, Ibn Sa‛d at the beginning of his book, following his teacher al-Wāqidī, states that the number of sarāyā sent by the Prophet was forty-seven, while the present study finds that he ends up referring to fifty-six sarāyā.Some biographers used the word ghazwah to refer to incidents others called sariyah, while some used the word ba‛th (delegation) in the same context. In many incidents, no encounter at all occurred with the clans. A number of incidents involved fighting and in some cases the number of victims is not given. According to the numbers that are given, eighty Muslims were killed, including sixty-nine preachers who were assassinated in one incident, while sixty-five non-Muslims were also killed. These accounts of sarāyā are a much less credible source than those of the ghazawāt, not only because of the lack of clarity and details about the reasons for and objectives of such minor incidents, but also because the narrations are not scrutinized and in some cases are unconvincing as stories.

— Ahmed al-Dawoody, The Islamic Law of War: Justifications and Regulations, pp. 29–30

12:22, 16 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

@CounterTime: If we took divergences of opinion as a criterion for inclusion, we would need to delete everything related to Muhammad from WP. Al-Dawoody's book is a RS, but it doesn't have greater academic stature on the subject than Watt or EI2. Excluding material based on his objections would be UNDUE. More generally, the purpose of the list is to provide an easy reference to detailed discussions. Eperoton (talk) 13:59, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

@Eperoton: The passage I quoted from al-Dawoody was merely mentioning the divergence of opinion with regards to the saraya, and giving its definition, it didn't outline any objections (although if you read further after that passage you would see some of his objections to the work of Watt with regards to the Saraya). What I said was, why should we even give weight to Watt's table when there is such a great divergence concerning the saraya, one listing it to be thirty-five, another thirty-eight, whereas others number it up to forty-seven and fifty-six? Also, what about the first objection? As you admitted, "I think we could potentially have a timeline article about Muhammad's military campaigns along the lines of List of Napoleonic battles and List of World War I battles," However the saraya do not fit under such type of articles, since saraya were mainly non-military in nature, as al-Dawoody framed, saraya were "to preach Islam, get news of what the Quraysh were planning, return stolen property, fight against those who were preparing to attack Medina, kill an individual for the same reason, fight those who killed one of the Prophet’s messengers and, in five instances, to destroy Quraysh idols after the taking of Mecca."

15:03, 16 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

@CounterTime: Per WP:WEIGHT, Watt's book should be given significant weight because it's still the most influential academic biography of Muhammad, and it's a rare source that corresponds exactly to the subject of the article (list of expeditions), which is also cited approvingly by another highly influential academic source, EI2. There should be a significant body of contrary judgments in reliable sources for a given event to make the opposing opinion more prominent. But in fact there's another reason why I think we should decide in favor of inclusion where RSs disagree: including an item in the table lets us quantify their support in RSs by citations and it lets the reader consult the discussion in the article, thereby reflecting different viewpoints, while excluding it does not. A third line of argumentation is that existence of a list of expeditions on WP is supported by RSs, and putting it here is better than splitting it out in a separate article from ghazawat. Beyond that, we should just reflect what the RSs call these events, in this case "expedition". I think it would be good to include an explanation of what is meant by saraya, such the one you quoted, in the lead. Eperoton (talk) 01:36, 17 March 2016 (UTC)

I disagree that Watt's take is the best one for this topic. There are a multitude of academic sources that deal with this topic. Watt has also received heavy criticism from academics like Zafar Ali Qureshi, who in his book "Prophet Mohammad and His Western Critics: A Critique of W. Montgomery Watt and Others" ﷺ debunks various stereotypes present in Orientalist literature's, which was endorsed by Ibrahim Kalin , a reputed professor of Islamic studies in Turkey and who serves as chief advisor to the PM of Turkey. Like I said, the solution is a lot simpler. We should simply maintain a list of verified expeditions in a list format, similar to other lists (mentioned above) without delving into the complexities involved in each expedition. There should, however, be articles pertaining to each expedition which should give more comprehensive insight into the matter. These individual articles, should contain a multitude of academic (non-primary) sources which delve into the matter. Xtremedood (talk) 08:16, 17 March 2016 (UTC)

I will, however, pass conditional support to the idea of utilizing one, two, or a few academic sources for inclusions of what expeditions should be included in the list (only names and dates). However, I would like to specify that this conditional support is only if the list article does not delve into the complex materials involved in each expedition (basically it should only include the name of the expedition and the date like the WW1 list article mentioned above). I think that the complex materials, involving the rationale, conditions and description of the expeditions should be left for the individual articles themselves, which should include a multitude of legitimate sources. A list article is simply not enough to provide a proper description of the events and we should not neglect the fact that there are a multitude of diverse views on the matter. Xtremedood (talk) 08:38, 17 March 2016 (UTC)

@Xtremedood: As far as I can tell, your proposal is essentially identical to mine. I deliberately avoid the use of words like "best" to characterize sources, because it's not the kind of judgment we're allowed to make. The terms used in WP:NPOV are "significant" and "prominent", which are a measure of academic influence. This case is particularly tricky because we have to apply WP:WEIGHT to a list. If we had multiple tables of this kind in RSs, we could have a YES/NO column for each to mark their historicity assessments for each expedition. Absent that, I think the best option would be to quantify RS support by citations in the year column. Events whose historicity is accepted by all RSs (except the hardcore skeptical school, of course) will have more refs in that column than controversial events. We can mention that in the lead, too. Eperoton (talk) 11:39, 17 March 2016 (UTC)

@Eperoton: I disagree on your assessment of Watt and EI2, but, to move forward, what about my second point? : As you admitted, "I think we could potentially have a timeline article about Muhammad's military campaigns along the lines of List of Napoleonic battles and List of World War I battles," However the saraya do not fit under such type of articles, since saraya were mainly non-military in nature, as al-Dawoody framed, saraya were "to preach Islam, get news of what the Quraysh were planning, return stolen property, fight against those who were preparing to attack Medina, kill an individual for the same reason, fight those who killed one of the Prophet’s messengers and, in five instances, to destroy Quraysh idols after the taking of Mecca."

And per WP:MOS/Hadith we should reflect the authenticity of Prophetic reports (and the genre of Maghazi/Saraya fits there), so how are you going about that? Watt himself doesn't make any comments on the authenticity of the reports he included in that table.

11:46, 17 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

@CounterTime: In response to your second point I wrote "we should just reflect what the RSs call these events". Calling them an expedition makes no implicit assertion about their military nature. The table reflects Watt's (also Caetani's and EI2's per citations) view about authenticity of the reports. As you can see from the text before the table, he thinks that the "points in dispute" relate to chronology of these events rather than their basic historicity. Note that I'm not proposing to include every row from his table; just the ones for which we have separate articles, because the purpose of the list is to provide a convenient reference to detailed discussions. Eperoton (talk) 12:08, 17 March 2016 (UTC)

@Eperoton: Watt wasn't even talking about their authenticity, he was merely noting that the "main" point of dispute is about the chronology of these maghazi & saraya. I would like you to re-read there, and particularly the previous dsicussion on the sources: "Ibn Ishaq, working in the second quarter of the second Islamic century (middle of the eighth century A.D.), usually gives his authorities, but not always a complete chain,and he does not always repeat the words of the authority verbatim. Al-Waqidi, half a century later, is similar in method, but his secretary and follower, Ibn Sa'd, some twenty years younger,always attempts to quote exactly and to give a complete chain of authorities. The insistence on complete chains is to be associated with the teaching of ash-Shafi'i, 2 who was roughly a contemporary of al-Waqidi" In sum, Watt didn't even speak about the authenticity of these siyar.

"just the ones for which we have separate articles" Ahmed al-Dawoody talked about there being in the Maghazi litterature 35, 38, 47, and 56 mentioned saraya, the previous version of the article contained 73, most of whom have an independent article created by @Misconceptions2:, so it seems this means that we should include all the table then.

17:25, 17 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

@CounterTime: It sounds like you're reading too much into this passage. Like most academic historians, Watt isn't basing his historicity judgments primarily on isnads. But I think our last two replies are starting to drift into synthesis. Our job is to reflect what RSs state explicitly, no more. We have a table called "list of expeditions" in a prominent RS. We have to reflect it in an article called "list of expeditions". What is explicit in the source is whether or not the event is listed. It may not be entirely clear how best to handle events on whose presence in such a list RSs disagree, but removing these events from the article is not what NPOV tells us to do. It tells us to reflect all significant viewpoints found in RSs. I'm surprised we're having so much difficulty reaching a consensus on this. Eperoton (talk) 12:21, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

@Eperoton: Western scholars may not page their judgment primarily on isnad, but Muslim scholars do in general. I will readjust some of my expectations (to keep up with the general consensus), so are you willing to incorporate these changes with the conditions you mentioned earlier (+ def of saraya and maghazi in lede)? 12:40, 18 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

@CounterTime: I'm all for reflecting both academic and traditional views. Whatever method lets us do so adequately is fine with me. Eperoton (talk) 12:49, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

@Eperoton: Great! You can already start working on the article whose protection will end today. 13:02, 18 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

Proposal: Changes until no consensus? Rubbish

Clearly there was no consensus in first place. You ended discussion without input of other demographics. In fact no one else even inputted to the original discussion other than muslims. So it was only gonna go one way. I will argue there was no consensus in first place and furthermore as the old version of this article was nominated for afd thats the one that should stay there until its over and should stay there until a consensus is reached here as agreed by me, sajith, and eperton. Furthermore I think user:142.105.159.60 and user:Edward321 agree with the old version being there thats why they made the reverts. So thats 5.--Misconceptions2 (talk) 17:09, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

@Misconceptions2: A consensus was reached before your re-apparition. If you want to change the new consensus you'd have to first make discussions in the talk page before making any edit. Simple. For the moment we're still waiting for your input here: https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:List_of_expeditions_of_Muhammad#Multiple_issues

17:18, 15 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

Because Misconceptions2 joined the discussion belatedly, there is a legitimate difference of opinion as to how WP:BRD should be interpreted here, i.e., which changes are the bold edits and which are the reverts. Regardless of this, the long-term state of the article is subject to WP:ONUS. The editors supporting inclusion of the disputed content should be taking the initiative in building consensus, and so far they seem strangely reluctant even to start addressing the raised objections. Eperoton (talk) 19:08, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Edit warring

I've fully protected for 2 days given we have a number of confirmed users engaging in edit warring. When the protection expires blocks may be in order for those who prove unable to work collaboratively — MusikAnimal 17:50, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

For the love of God

@Xtremedood: Control this failed musician DJ SG Gayashan who has another sockpuppet account called Sajithgayashan and SG Gayashan, he failed to promote his failed career on Misplaced Pages Alexis Ivanov (talk) 09:27, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 19 March 2016

It is requested that an edit be made to the semi-protected article at List of expeditions of Muhammad. (edit · history · last · links · protection log) This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y". The edit may be made by any autoconfirmed user. Remember to change the |answered=no parameter to "yes" when the request has been accepted, rejected or on hold awaiting user input. This is so that inactive or completed requests don't needlessly fill up the edit requests category. You may also wish to use the {{ESp}} template in the response. To request that a page be protected or unprotected, make a protection request.

Can anyone revert the edit by 103.55.147.30, since his edit wasn't based on a consensus reached on the talk page or anything similar? 16:38, 19 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

There was no consensus in the first place. Anyone can see that because the arguments are still on going back on forth. I am for the long-standing version version ()the current one) being on there, it has been there for 2 years+ until a few peopel decided otherwise. Its also needed for the afd.--Misconceptions2 (talk) 16:53, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

Why dont we do a vote on which version should be kept? The longstanding version or the highly redacted version.--Misconceptions2 (talk) 16:55, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

@Misconceptions2: Once again, WP consensus is based not on votes, but on strength of the arguments and policy compliance. All interested editors have just had an extensive policy-based discussion that yielded a consensus on the long-term form of the article in the "Proposal" section. Your decision to sit out the discussion doesn't invalidate the resulting consensus. If you have a problem with it, I invite you once again to join the discussion and address the policy and content issues debated there. Otherwise, you'll have to create a new consensus for any other changes you'll want to make. Eperoton (talk) 17:07, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

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