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This is an informal place to resolve small content disputes as part of dispute resolution. It may also be used as a tool to direct certain discussions to more appropriate forums, such as requests for comment, or other noticeboards. You can ask a question on the talk page. This is an early stop for most disputes on Misplaced Pages. You are not required to participate, however, the case filer must participate in all aspects of the dispute or the matter will be considered failed. Any editor may volunteer! Click this button to add your name! You don't need to volunteer to help. Please feel free to comment below on any case. Be civil and remember; Maintain Misplaced Pages policy: it is usually a misuse of a talk page to continue to argue any point that has not met policy requirements. Editors must take particular care adding information about living persons to any Misplaced Pages page. This may also apply to some groups.

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Current disputes

Talk:Erwin Rommel#About_the_revert_of_my_1_Feb_2016_correction

Through the past two months, a discussion took place. After two months, the primary disagreement still exists, so the case is closed as failed. Since this issue deals with what should appear in a military officer's article, a RfC would be an excellent choice, since what Camino 2-1-2 wants to do is not standard Misplaced Pages operating procedure. If any editor has any questions about this close, please contact me on my talk page User_talk:In veritas In veritas (talk) 00:13, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

Talk:Tamils#Are Tamils a stateless nation or only Sri Lankan Tamils?

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Tamils#Are Tamils a stateless nation or only Sri Lankan Tamils? (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Vatasura (talk · contribs)
• 117.192.218.39 (talk · contribs)
• Kautilya3 (talk · contribs)
• Copperchloride (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Vatasura claim Tamils as a nation and as whole a stateless nation, but 117.192.218.39 claim Tamils in India are not stateless nation and Tamils in Sri Lanka are stateless nation.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

So far only discussed, no other steps made.

How do you think we can help?

Volunteers with experience in nationalism, ethnic or history can certainly enlighten us.

Summary of dispute by 117.192.218.39

Summary of dispute by Kautilya3

I am not confident that this is issue is ripe for DRN. I have been mostly a bystander in that dispute, asking for reliable sources for the claim that Tamils in general form a stateless nation. I haven't yet seen one. It is possible that what constitutes a reliable source for the claim is itself disputed. If so, this dispute might just focus on pinning down what is required of a reliable source. For example, does the presence of a section on "Tamils" in the imply that Tamils as a whole form a stateless nation? Personally, I think it would come as a rude shock to most Tamils in India if Misplaced Pages were to declare that they now form a stateless nation. This seems to me to be WP:OR of the highest order. - Kautilya3 (talk) 14:16, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Copperchloride

Talk:Tamils#Are Tamils a stateless nation or only Sri Lankan Tamils? discussion

• Volunteer note - There has been adequate discussion at the article talk page. The filing party has not notified the unregistered editor at any of the IP addresses that they have used. The filing party has the responsibility to notify the other editor. This case can be opened after proper notice has been given. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:00, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
• Volunteer note - Two other registered editors have been discussing at the article talk page and should be invited as parties to this request. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:27, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

All involved users are listed here and informed on their talk page. IP user was informed on 117.192.218.39. Vatasura (talk) 06:13, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

First statement by volunteer moderator

I am opening this case. Here are the usual ground rules. Do not edit the article while this discussion is in progress. Discussion should be here rather than on the article talk page. Be civil and concise. Comment on content, not on contributors. Civility is mandatory everywhere in Misplaced Pages, and especially in dispute resolution, and overly long posts do not clarify issues. Everyone must check the status of this page at least every 48 hours. (There are no exceptions to the 48-hour rule.) Robert McClenon (talk) 20:16, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

I expect every editor to provide a brief restatement of their case. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:16, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

My question has to do with the statement that Sri Lankan Tamils are a stateless nation, but Indian Tamils are not. How can that be? Are Sir Lankan Tamils and Indian Tamils two different nationalities? If not, is there a question about the existence of Tamil-majority Indian states, which are not sovereign states because they are federated states? Robert McClenon (talk) 20:16, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

First statements by editors

Regarding the question, why are only Sri Lankan Tamils a stateless nation, why not Indian Tamils?, modern scholarship doesn't treat "nationhood" as being defined in textbooks. Rather it is defined on the ground, under the pushes and pulls of political and ideological pressures. India is a large multi-ethnic country with 20+ large ethnic groups, and myriads of smaller ones. It has been so for millennia. So the idea of ethnic nationalism simply doesn't work for India. Rather it is territorial nationalism, way back from 300 BC if we are to judge by Megasthenes's descriptions, that shapes India. Sri Lanka could have gone the same way. But it didn't. It has two major ethnic groups. The Tamils, who are a minority most of whom were recent arrivals, were "disenfranchised," according to this source. This gave rise to Tamil nationalism within Sri Lanka. So the comparison between Sri Lankan Tamils and Indian Tamils is like comparing apples and oranges. - Kautilya3 (talk) 16:43, 17 March 2016 (UTC)

References

1. Minahan, James (2012). Ethnic Groups of South Asia and the Pacific: An Encyclopedia. ABC-CLIO. pp. 318–. ISBN 978-1-59884-659-1.

Robert McClenon has raised good questions, to understand this, we have to look back at history. Tamils are a nation with a history of over 2000 years. Originally, Tamils ruled as an independent nation in Tamilakam and parts of Sri Lanka. During the colonial period, Tamils were defeated by the British and Tamil homeland was absorbed in British India and British Ceylon. This situation completely eradicated the sovereignty of Tamils and reduced them to a minority status under political model implemented by British. Since independence, Tamil separatist movements are suppressed in Sri Lanka and India

Today, 77 million Tamils live around the world, but there is no sovereigne Tamil state that represents the interests of the Tamils, this situation makes Tamils as a whole a stateless nation. Tamils in India are called Indian Tamils, in Sri Lanka as Sri Lankan Tamils, in Britain as British Tamils, in Malaysia as Malaysian Tamils, that does not mean that they are different ethnic groups. Vatasura 03:07, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

References

1. India, Sri Lanka and the Tamil crisis, 1976-1994: an international perspective (1995), Alan J. Bullion, p.32.

Second statement by volunteer moderator

In general, articles in Misplaced Pages should be consistent with each other. That is, contradictions between articles should usually be resolved. The article on stateless nation defines a stateless nation as a people that are seen as a nation that do not have a sovereign state. Is there is agreement that the Sir Lankan Tamils and the Indian Tamils are a single nation? If so, how can a subgroup of this nation be stateless according to the current definition? If modern scholarship does not treat "nationhood" as defined in textbooks, then what reliable sources should we use to define it? Alternatively, if the definition of stateless nation is too rigid, then should stateless nation be redefined to have a standard that includes the Sri Lankan Tamils and not the Indian Tamils? If so, how should the stateless nation article be reworked? Robert McClenon (talk) 02:31, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

Second statements by editors

I think the page stateless nation needs to be improved and linked to other Misplaced Pages pages. It explains well, what is a stateless nation and also mentions different situations. A nation without a sovereign state is a stateless nation, that is the bitter truth. Why should we hide the truth, just because its too rigid? There was even a poll to delete the page sateless nation, but it was kept because of its unique concept. There is no doubt that Tamils in mainland and island are ethnically, linguistically, culturally, traditionally a single nation. I think most sources on Misplaced Pages comes from text books, we should not make it complicated.Vatasura 21:02, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

The article on stateless nation is a stub-class article that has been templated for citations for 2 years. What exists is full of WP:OR and poor-quality writing. It can't be a standard bearer for anything. It should certainly not trump the standard Misplaced Pages requirements of Verifiability. To call something a "stateless nation" there should be reliable sources that call it so along with a thorough discussion of why it is a stateless nation. We can't use "stateless nation" as if it were a standard term with a dictionary meaning. "Nation" is a loaded term in the current day terminology, and we can't willy nilly call every ethnic group a "nation," without support from reliable sources. - Kautilya3 (talk) 23:39, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

Third statement by volunteer moderator

The purpose of dispute resolution should be improving the article. The article states, with two sources, that Tamils are one of the largest national groups without a state. What does any editor who wants to change the article want it to say, and what reliable sources will they provide? Robert McClenon (talk) 21:55, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Third statements by editors

In the first place, the statement occurs as a self-assured assertion in the lead, without any discussion or elaboration in the body. There is no in-line attribution either. So it is being presented as if it were a universal fact, on the basis of two weak sources. The first source, a WP:TERTIARY one, essentially describes the ethnic community of Tamils without making any particular claim to them forming a `stateless nation'. The second source doesn't have the term `stateless nation' in it at all, as far as Google Books can tell. I have no idea what the editor found in the second source.

• On the other hand, if you do search for "Tamils stateless nation" on Google Books, you get tons of sources describing quite explicitly Sri Lankan Tamils forming a `stateless nation'. Apparently, the editor is not interested in any of these sources.
• There are also plenty of sources that indicate that the whole enterprise of `stateless nations' is a red herring, especially for South Asia. One source says: South Asia, in this sense, offers yet another advance in the study of nationalism, and this pertains to the flawed assumption regarding conjugality between state and nation. According to the source, the South Asian model where multi-ethnic groups coexist within a federal polity is an advance over the European nation-state model.
• Another source, actually used in the Stateless nations article, says: Whatever the numbers one might wish to use, nations that have states are only a small fraction of all nations, but we insist in associating nations with states and in regarding the majority of nations that are stateless as problematic or lacking something. This source says, in the content of the Kurdish question, one should avoid the ambiguous use of such terms as `proto-nation' and `stateless nation' .

For me, there are three options:

• We can state that the Sri Lankan Tamils have been described as a `stateless nation' for which reliable sources are easy to find.
• If the issue is to be discussed for all Tamils, then a section needs to be added in the body describing all points of view and then the lead can summarise them in a sentence or two.
• Or, we omit it altogether. - Kautilya3 (talk) 23:39, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

References

1. Fazal, Tanweer (18 October 2013), Minority Nationalisms in South Asia, Routledge, pp. 5–6, ISBN 978-1-317-96647-0
2. Nimni, Ephraim (2011), "Stateless nations in a world of nation-states", in Karl Cordell; Stefan Wolff (eds.), The Routledge Handbook of Ethnic Conflict, Routledge, pp. 55–66
3. Kirişci, Kemal; Kirisci, Kemal; Winrow, Gareth M. (1997), The Kurdish Question and Turkey: An Example of a Trans-state Ethnic Conflict, Psychology Press, pp. 3–, ISBN 978-0-7146-4746-3

Stateless nation is not a made-up word but a political term. This question can only be answered by neutrality, because it is a national question. Indian nationalists would argue that Indian Tamils are not a stateless nation. Sri Lankan nationalists would argue that Sri Lankan Tamils are not a stateless nation. Tamil nationalists would argue that Tamils are a stateless nation. To claim that Indian Tamils are not stateless nation and Sri Lankan Tamils are stateless nation makes no sense. A nation is born by the national consciousness. Tamils consider themselves a nation otherwise there would be no Tamil nationalism. Tamils can not be compared with other ethnic groups in India. Not all ethnic groups in India have a national consciousness or consider themselves to be a nation. On Misplaced Pages we find not even a page about Telugu nationalism, Gujarati nationalism or Oriya nationalism. The Encyclopedia of the Stateless Nations by James Minahan which one of the sources, list Tamils as a single stateless nation. The statement "That Tamils are one of the largest national groups without a state" is since 2014 on the page Tamils. It was neither removed immediately or opposed by most users. Tamils is an active wiki page and when someone writes something absurd, it will be removed immediately.Vatasura (talk) 04:42, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

Tamils consider themselves a nation otherwise there would be no Tamil nationalism. That seems like backward reasoning. And it is false. "Nationalism" is a much weaker term than "nation." It means basically ethnic politics or identity politics. On the other hand, "nation" means a group that is laying claim to be a sovereign state (as in being a member of "United Nations"). So the idea of "Tamil nationalism" says nothing about a "Tamil nation." - Kautilya3 (talk) 18:16, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

Fourth statement by volunteer moderator

I forgot to state one of the usual rules, which is that editors should not engage in threaded discussion or reply to each other's posts. This results in going back-and-forth and is unproductive. Respond only to the moderator. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:46, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

Comment on content, not on contributors. Referring to "the editor" doesn't avoid commenting on contributors. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:46, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

One editor is satisfied with the current version of the lede sentence, which describes Tamils as a nationality that does not have a national state, which has two sources. The other editor has proposed three alternatives. The first is describing only Sri Lankan Tamils as a stateless nation. Is there a reliable source that states that Sri Lankan Tamils are a stateless nation and Indian Tamils are not? (If there is no reliable source, that position is original research.) If so, how can part of one nationality be stateless and another one not be stateless? The second is presenting a discussion of all views in the body of the article. The third is omitting the issue altogether. Is the other editor agreeable to any of these approaches? Robert McClenon (talk) 01:46, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

Fourth statements by editors

I think it should remain unchanged, but we can limit it only to Tamil nationalists.

We can change it to:

Tamil people with a population of about 77 million living around the world are one of the largest and oldest of the existing ethno-linguistic cultural groups of people. Tamil nationalists claim that Tamils are a Nation without a state of their own.

I think this version is acceptable for Indian nationalists, Sri Lankan nationalists and Tamil nationalists.Vatasura (talk) 06:40, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

Are there reliable sources that say that the Srilankan Tamils form a stateless nation? Plenty. Here is a sample:

• Put simply, the worlds stateless nations — Kosovan Albanians, Kurds from Turkey and Iraq, Tamils from Sri Lanka, Chechens from Russia, Ibos and Ogoni from Nigeria, and hundreds of other tribes and ethnic groups...
• A stateless nation exists whenever or wherever an imagined political culture that functions in ways that permit a people to conceive of themselves as a nation finds itself lacking its own sovereign, independent state.... Modern examples abound: the Palestinians in Israel and Occupied Territories as well as Gaza; ... the Tamils in Sri Lanka; the Chechens in Chechnya; ...
• In order to escape persecution from the Sri Lankan government, which has suspended the Tamil population's rights as citizens, a large number of Tamils have fled the island... These far-flung Tamils, together with their compatriots in Sri Lanka, constitute the stateless nation of Tamil Eelam, which is reflected in these scattered groups' presence on the World Wide Web.
• Tamils in Sri Lanka have no state and are seeking to create their own sovereign state of Eelam based on their right of self-determination. They are a stateless nation oppressed by alien Sinhalese colonialism and domination.

On the other hand, Robert, your question "If so, how can part of one nationality be stateless and another one not be stateless?" is a prime example of WP:OR. It is not our job to either ask or answer such questions. - Kautilya3 (talk) 20:51, 24 March 2016 (UTC)

Fifth statement by volunteer moderator

The suggestion has been made that we state, with reliable sources, that Tamil nationalists say that the Tamils, of whom there are 77 million, are a stateless nation. Is that statement, which recognizes that nationalism is a matter of opinion, acceptable to both parties? If so, can this discussion be closed as Resolved?

Fifth statements by editors

I think we can close it. Further discussion on this will brings us nowhere. Discuss on this is like an atheist and believer discuss on existence of God, it will never end. Robert, I am grateful that you asked this question. "If so, how can part of one nationality be stateless and another one not be stateless?", but I think you'll like me get no answer for this question. As I said, we can leave it unchanged as since 2014 or we can add the part with Tamil Nationlist and finish this dispute.

• Put simply, the worlds stateless nations — Kosovan Albanians, Kurds from Turkey and Iraq, Tamils from Sri Lanka, Chechens from Russia, Ibos and Ogoni from Nigeria, and hundreds of other tribes and ethnic groups...

According to this source, are Kurds in Syria or Iran not stateless nations?:) Vatasura (talk) 05:30, 25 March 2016 (UTC)

If there are reliable sources saying such a thing, I would have no objection. But there aren't. The other editor has not yet produced a single reliable source stating anything. Without sources, we are simply going around in circles. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 10:23, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

Leaving it as it is, is not an option. What exists in the lead is WP:OR not supported by RS. It is also not discussed in the lead. Once this DRN case closes, I intend to delete it. The other editor needs to produce alternative wording supported by reliable sources, preferably right here. - Kautilya3 (talk) 10:43, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

Talk:Jim Chappell#Use of Scaruffi web site

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Jim Chappell#Use of Scaruffi web site (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• NewYorkActuary (talk · contribs)
• Woovee (talk · contribs)
• Chubbles (talk · contribs)
• Sergecross73 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

This is a slow-motion edit war, the topic of dispute being an external link used in the article's "Further Reading" section. The section (and link) was added by the filing party, but has been persistently removed by the non-filing party. In doing so, the non-filing party cites a one-day discussion on the talk page of a project which is not a "sponsor" of the instant article (i.e., the article does not lie within the scope of that project). Furthermore, the purported consensus reached during that one-day discussion was seriously flawed, for reasons both procedural and factual. The filing party asserts that the only operative requirements for the instant article are those found in WP:EL, and that the particular link in question meets those requirements.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

A third-opinion request led to the fashioning of a compromise, which was rejected by the non-filing party. The filing party also offered to engage in mediation, but this offer was not accepted.

How do you think we can help?

A moderated discussion will provide a necessary basis for clarifying and resolving the issues in dispute.

Summary of dispute by Woovee

Summary of dispute by Chubbles

The debate concerns the inclusion of referencing material written by Piero Scaruffi, whose status as a reliable source was rejected by a consensus of Wikipedians a few years ago because he was self-published in the area of music. NewYorkActuary wished to include, on the Jim Chappell page, a link to Scaruffi's website where Chappell's work was discussed. This was reverted by Woovee, who pointed to the consensus that Scaruffi was not a reliable source. NewYorkActuary was able to demonstrate that the consensus had overlooked a crucial piece of evidence: Scaruffi had, indeed, been published in music, by a major Italian publishing house, Arcana Editrice. According to the link on Scaruffi's site, the material NewYorkActuary wished to include was published (with slight revisions) in one of those Arcana publications. Woovee maintained that the inclusion of any link to Scaruffi's website violated the consensus, even if it were just a convenience link to the content that had been published elsewhere by a peer-reviewed print publisher.

I ordered the Scaruffi book from an interlibrary loan service, to confirm that it was editorially reviewed and that the Chappell article was in the book; it was, but there were slight differences in wording between the published version and the online mirror on Scaruffi's website. NewYorkActuary wishes to include the convenience link for the use of readers who want to verify the content of the book reference; Woovee has allowed for the print publication to be included on the article, but reverts all inclusion of the convenience link. For me, the debate hinges on whether the additions on Scaruffi's website are de minimis or not; I see no good reason to exclude a convenience link if the text is exactly the same as in a reliable print publication, but there are some minor differences between what's in the print version and the version on Scaruffi's website, which do not appreciably affect the content of what the sourcing was meant to cover. Lastly, this new evidence indicates that the consensus that Scaruffi is an unreliable author on music needs reexamination. Since he has been published, more than once, by a major music publisher, I'd argue that this may make his website "fair game" for sourcing once again, as a recognized authority in the field. Chubbles (talk) 21:48, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Sergecross73

After a series of disputes regarding the use of Piero Scaruffi work as a source in in music articles, I facilitated a discussion at WP:ALBUMS, which unanimously decided that he was not an authority on music unless his work was published by a third party publisher. Over 10 editors participated at this discussion held at the WikiProject level, many of them long-term and experienced editors. The current consensus is to only use his published work on Misplaced Pages, a consensus no one has attempted to change in these discussions, so its rather bizarre they didn't go there before coming to DRN.

Regardless, linking to PS's personal blog as an external link not only violates the consensus, and WP:SPS in general, but conceptually adds very little to the article anyways, as its written entirely in Italian, something not readable by a vast majority of English readers anyways. Its inclusion creates virtually no benefit to the reader. Its truly baffling how he's still arguing over such a minor thing, or that he even refuses the compromise I proposed, which was adding a book that published PS's work about the subject in a "Further Reading" section, which at least wouldn't violate the active consensus. Sergecross73 msg me 20:33, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

Talk:Jim Chappell#Use of Scaruffi web site discussion

DRN coordinator's note: I've added a couple of parties who have been involved in the recent discussion and will notify them. Let me note that there's been plenty of discussion and the other editor, Woovee, has already been notified. — TransporterMan (TALK) 20:15, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

Opening statement by volunteer

My name is thehistorian10, and I am the volunteer who will be mediating this case. I see that the parties have attempted to discuss this matter, and have not yet resolved their dispute through previous efforts.

Let me just begin by setting out the ground rules. Please do not edit the article in dispute during this process - it means we are all working with the same material. Second, please respect that some of us come from differing time zones, and may not be able to respond immeidately, so please give it a day or two after your posting, if you are expecting a response. Thirdly, this is meant to be an informal mediation. It is not designed to be another forum for your self-described "slow edit war". Therefore, I will not tolerate any attacks of any kind against me, or another participant. See my comments about civility below. This is because I am trying to help everyone here - and there are multiple parties to this case - reach a solution that they can agree on. I should say that if there is any uncivil behaviour (which, based on the talk page, there hasn't been so far), I might have to collapse the uncivil spats into an archive box, so they can be out of the way. I also expect a degree of cooperation from parties, because solutions to these debates can only come around through compromise and cooperation. If there is no obvious cooperation or discussion, I may close this as a failed case.

As I understand the debate, this centres around the validity of a certain proposed source, authored by someone who has apparently been discredited by the Misplaced Pages community. I'm not going to question that decision, but I would like to know what information the filing party seeks to get from the source? The Historian (talk) 20:40, 17 March 2016 (UTC)

Response from NewYorkActuary to moderator's questions

When I checked in here yesterday, this topic had disappeared from the page. But everything seems to have been corrected since then.

The material in question is a critical assessment of a particular musician's recorded output. As such, it provides appropriate "Further Reading" in an article about that musician. Although it might have been possible to incorporate that material into the article itself, I had two concerns about doing so. First, the amount of material in the reading's assessment was much greater than the amount of material that could be gleaned from other sources. Using it in the "Critical Reception" section of the article might have given the appearance of placing undue weight on the opinion of this one expert. And second, bringing in enough of that material to fill in the gaps left by the other sources might have raised questions of copyright violations (based on the amount of imported material compared to the total amount in the reading). For these reasons, listing it as a "Further Reading" was the best use of the material and was justified under criterion #3 of WP:ELYES.

I have two comments on procedural matters. First, Woovee (the editor I described as the "non-filing party") has not yet appeared in this discussion. We have had opening statements from the two additional editors who were added to the list by this page's coordinator. Although I believe that useful discussion can take place amongst the three of us, I note that neither of the additional editors was the one who was engaged in the persistent reverting of edits.

Second, I am concerned about your statement that you will not "question the decision" regarding prior discussion of the author. The scope and validity of that talk-page discussion back in 2014 is the central issue here today, and not examining that discussion is tantamount to pre-judging the merits of the case. I pray that you reconsider your position on this. The 2014 talk-page discussion is here.

Thank you for your volunteer efforts. NewYorkActuary (talk) 23:06, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

Talk:Proton_(automobile)#Youngman_sales_data_reputability

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Proton (automobile)#Youngman sales data reputability (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Samhu (talk · contribs)
• Aero777 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

One editor is disputing figures as shown in Proton's Global Operation on these basis

1)Youngman's China-manufactured cars sold as Lian-Hua have little to do with Proton so should they be included in the bar chart and tables in that same section at all?

2) Youngman car sales figures are discredited so should they be quoted as they have been at all?

Other editor is standing by entries as they are.

Summation of discussion between the two editors involved is at

1. Talk:Proton_(automobile)#Youngman_sales_data_reputability

Complete discussion is at

1. User talk:Aero777#Proton automobiles, Youngman controversy

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Fully discussed already, without any resolution between authors here User_talk:Aero777#Proton_automobiles.2C_Youngman_controversy

Third opinion requested on 13 March 2016 ; went stale on 19 March 2018

How do you think we can help?

1)Give your opinion whether including Youngman Automotive's Lian-Hua nameplate China-manufactured cars is relevant at all in the Proton Global Operations bar chart, section text and tables.

2)Advice whether now-defunct Youngman Automobile Groups sale's figures meet Misplaced Pages standards for inclusion there. (May not be required if Youngman sales deemed irrelevant for inclusion in Proton Global Operations altogether)

Samhu Samhu (talk) 16:15, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Aero777

# Talk:Proton (automobile)#Youngman_sales_data_reputability discussion

• Volunteer note - There has been adequate discussion at the article talk page. The filing party has not notified the other party of the filing. This case will be ready for acceptance after the filing party notifies the other party and the other party responds. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:26, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

• Aero777 has been informed via his talk page. Samhu (talk) 04:12, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Talk:Chaharshanbe Suri#Title

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Chaharshanbe Suri#Title (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Rye-96 (talk · contribs)
• Pahlevun (talk · contribs)
• HistoryofIran (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

The dispute is on the name of the festival. And this is the edition which I had provided and was opposed to.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I suggest, if we're not to use Charshanbe Suri at the first of the introduction, use it as a bold title after Chaharshanbe Suri.

How do you think we can help?

Participate in the discussion, and show if there's any chance to change the current introduction which I consider unprofessional (with regard to my explanations).

Summary of dispute by Pahlevun

Summary of dispute by HistoryofIran

Talk:Chaharshanbe Suri#Title discussion

• Volunteer note - There has been adequate discussion at the article talk page. The filing party has notified the other editors. If the other editors reply to agree that they are willing to discuss here, since discussion is voluntary, a volunteer can open a discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:00, 25 March 2016 (UTC)

Talk:J. Ralph

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:J. Ralph (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Karst (talk · contribs)
• Eldorado74 (talk · contribs)
• Moonriddengirl (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

I have been in a content dispute over J.Ralph page with its creator Eldorado74 since December 2015. As another editor (Moonriddengirl) on the talk page pointed out, there is an issue of WP:OWN about the content, but assuming Good Faith I have tried to steer the editor away from the promotional language used in the article. This has resulted in a number of mutual reverts in the past three months. Last week I tried to establish a neutral tone to the article but this was met with further accusations of vandalism. After a number of attempts to seek out consensus, I request mediation to solve the issue.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I have attempted to outline the issues with the page and give clear examples of why and how they needed to be addressed. Both on the article Talk page and the Talk page of the article creator.

How do you think we can help?

Assuming good faith I have tried to find a consensus over the past three months, but have to concede that I have failed and perhaps have become too entrenched in the issue. I intend to take a step away and hope that a third party can help with finding a common ground that will benefit the article.

Summary of dispute by Eldorado74

Summary of dispute by Moonriddengirl

Talk:J. Ralph discussion

• Volunteer note - There has been extensive discussion at the talk page. Eldorado74 has been properly notified. Administrator Moonriddengirl has not edited the article in two years. Other editors who have not been listed have edited the article or its talk page recently. The filing party must notify the other editors who have edited the article or its talk page recently. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:35, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Notified those who have edited the page in the past year; with the exception of one (blocked sockpuppet).Karst (talk) 21:30, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

• Recent editor note - A quick glance over the page clearly reads like a biased resume. The article clearly lacks a neutral tone. MetropolisHearts (talk) 21:45, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Talk:Cryonics#Analysis of_Wikipedia_policy_in_context_of_the_.22Scientists_Open_Letter_on_Cryonics.22

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Cryonics#Analysis of Misplaced Pages policy in context of the .22Scientists Open Letter on Cryonics.22 (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Nome77 (talk · contribs)
• David Gerard (talk · contribs)
• Cryobiologist (talk · contribs)
• JzG (talk · contribs) aka Guy
• MjolnirPants (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

I'm trying to include the core (premise/point of view) of cryonicists (as a group) in the cryonics article. This point of view is most clearly and reputably represented by the "Scientists Open Letter on Cryonics". Even though the inclusion of this open letter easily meets NPOV and RS guidelines, one editor who is a critic of cryonics is blocking the inclusion of this content. At least two editors agree that the content should be included, especially considering all the critical opinions which are already there. The editor who is blocking the content has provided very little discussion on the topic, while I have pursued discussion extensively and in good faith. The "scientists open letter" in question is referenced multiple places, including on the national Institute of health website, a few printed books, and several news sources. It should be noted that this point of view, and -any- point of view held by cryonicists, is certainly a minority point of view (because they are a minority group). It is easy to make sure that this minority status is represented with the discussed content.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I tried to talk with the objecting editor on the talk page. They write very little in response, mostly making claims that none of the provided sources are reputable. (Regardless of their reputability).

How do you think we can help?

Read through the arguments I have made on the talk page. Especially my references and interpretations of Misplaced Pages policy on these matters. Let any other editors know if you think that my representation of Misplaced Pages policy on this matter is correct, or incorrect. I believe that comments from an authoritative third-party on whether the discussed policies are accurate, or inaccurate, could help resolve this dispute.

Summary of dispute by David Gerard

Summary of dispute by Cryobiologist

Nome77 (talk · contribs) has proposed adding an entire new section to the Cryonics article solely devoted to discussion of a document called The Scientists' Open Letter on Cryonics. I believe brief mention of this Letter is warranted, but not an entire section devoted to it.

The Cryonics article in question already contains quotes from scientists critical of cryonics sourced from single newspaper stories. Since the existence of the Scientists' Open Letter on Cryonics is mentioned in multiple newspaper articles, books, and journal articles, it is legitimate to mention the existence of the Letter in the article about cryonics. Mention in just one mainstream media source, such as the China Daily newspaper article should give the Letter the same standing as a single-article quote of an individual scientist. The Letter exists (not in dispute), and was deemed worthy of mention in newspapers and books, including books not about cryonics by neutral authors, just as criticisms of cryonics have been deemed newsworthy in various newspaper stories.

JzG (talk · contribs) noted that the organization currently hosting the Open Letter is insignificant and has a vested interest in topic of cryonics, but agrees that the conclusion can be drawn from reliable sources that the Letter does in fact exist. JzG further said that the purported sources citing the letter appear at first glance to be churnalism of a press release. The only source I can see that did this is the Canadian Medical Association Journal, a mainstream medical journal that deemed a press release referencing the Letter worthy of mention, as did an Australian newspaper story.

Rather than an entire section worded as though it was an extension of the Letter website, I proposed adding the following neutral paragraph to the existing Reception section of the article. Nome77 (talk · contribs) deleted this paragraph, and took the proposal for adding a whole section about the Letter to dispute resolution before other editors could comment on the below paragraph.

With the adoption of ice-free preservation methods (vitrification) in cryonics at the beginning of the 21st Century, several dozen scientists began signing an open letter expressing a minority view that there is "a credible possibility" that cryonics performed with contemporary technology under ideal conditions might preseve enough brain information to allow future revival.. The letter disclaims endorsement of any particular cryonics organization or its practices. As of 2016, the letter had 69 signatories. Cryobiologist (talk) 18:17, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

References

1. ^ Mark Fisch (1996). Criminology, 1997/1998. McGraw-Hill Higher Education. ISBN 978-0-697-35421-1.
2. Edward Weisband; Courtney I P Thomas (17 November 2015). Political Culture and the Making of Modern Nation-States. Routledge. pp. 78–. ISBN 978-1-317-25410-2.
3. Enteen, Jillana B. (16 December 2009), Virtual English: Queer Internets and Digital Creolization, Routledge, pp. 79–, ISBN 978-1-135-86872-7
4. N. Seevaratnam; World Federation of Tamils (1989). The Tamil national question and the Indo-Sri Lanka Accord. Konark Publishers.
5. Xinhua (22 September 2015). "Frozen Chinese body prompts hot debate". China Daily. Retrieved 22 March 2016.
6. "Briefly". Canadian Medical Association Journal. 184 (11): E597–E601. August 2012. doi:10.1503/cmaj.109-4247. PMC 3414624.
7. "Scientists' Open Letter on Cryonics". Institute for Evidence Based Cryonics. 2016-03-22. Retrieved 2016-03-22.
8. Xinhua (22 September 2015). "Frozen Chinese body prompts hot debate". China Daily. Retrieved 22 March 2016.
9. "Briefly". Canadian Medical Association Journal. 184 (11): E597–E601. August 2012. doi:10.1503/cmaj.109-4247. PMC 3414624.
10. Igor Levenberg (2009). "Personal Revival Trusts: If You Can't Take It with You, Can You Come Back To Get It?". St. John's Law Review. 83 (4): 1469–1500.
11. "Scientists' Open Letter on Cryonics". Institute for Evidence Based Cryonics. 2016-03-22. Retrieved 2016-03-22.

Summary of dispute by JzG

One editor with no other interests wants to include a substantial paragraph, in fact an entire section, on an "open letter" (essentially an online petition) signed by a small number of scientists who support the statement that cryonics is a legitimate field of inquiry. Others have noted some issues with this:

1. The petition is run by a group with a vested interest in promoting cryonics.
2. The group is of no objectively provable significance.
3. The most that can be drawn from reliable independent sources is that it exists, the balance is based on the letter itself and promotion of it on the sponsoring organisation (this group and its website fail WP:RS).
4. When you look into the purported sources, they turn out to be very brief and at first glance appear to be churnalism, based entirely on press release material.

So, the "dispute" is between one newly registered SPA who likely thinks we are "suppressing information" and a group of long-standing editors with very large numbers of edits across multiple subjects.

We would need, I think, a categorical assurance from the OP that they would accept a result that went against them, otherwise any DR process would be a complete waste of time. Long experience suggests to me that this is one of those users who only accepts the answer they want. Guy (Help!) 14:02, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by MjolnirPants

The issue I see here is one of balancing weight between POVs. On the one hand, we have reliable sources stating one thing. On the other, we have unreliable sources stating something else. On top of that, we have a new user interpreting various sources to support the claims of the unreliable source. This seems pretty clear cut to me. We don't give undue weight to fringe POVs. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 17:21, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Nome77

I opened the dispute, so my summary is started in the "Dispute overview". Below are my comments on the issues mentioned by other editors. If this is not the correct place for my thoughts on dispute issues, please let me know where they should go rather than reverting my dispute comments. (Looking at you, JzG). This will be my final input in the header of this dispute, unless additions are requested. Thank you.

(Re Cryobiologists summary): I believe the proposal offered by Cryobiologist is an equitable resolution, and I would support that proposal. The only thing I would add to his text is to change "scientists" to "prominent scientists" or "respected scientists". Several secondary sources refer to them as such, and a lookup of any of the signatories names makes their distinction within their fields fairly obvious.

(Re JzG point 1a) The open letter is not a petition, a petition is defined by the dictionary as a "request for action", and no action is requested by the letter. The letter is better described as a consensus statement for the group of 69 signatories, about their point of view on cryonics from their scientific perspective. The open letter is more specifically an attempt to make their voice and opinion heard. (Which is also the goal of this dispute). (Re JzG point 1b) Yes, the open letter is currently hosted by group with an interest in cryonics, but the letter is not "run" by them. The open letter was originally created in 2004, about six years before the domain on which it is currently hosted existed (domain was created in 2010). This can be verified by looking at the signatory dates and looking at history of the "evidencebasedcryonics.org" domain name as reported by archive.org. (Re JzG Point 2) The word "significance" is always subjective, not objective unless the criteria for significance is clearly specified. Each signatory is a prominent name within their listed scientific or medical field, which means that the group is not significant, but the individuals are significant. (Re JzG Point 3) The fact that the hosting site has an interest and cryonics does not make the hosting site fail WP:RS. The WP:RS policy states about biased sources: "Misplaced Pages articles are required to present a neutral point of view. However, reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject.". As you mentioned, the open letter is also referenced by multiple independent sources, which certainly do not fail WP:RS. The references include the National Institute of Health. Several of the references do discuss some aspects of the letter beyond its existence. Most mention a key point that the letter has been signed by prominent scientists. Several of them also describe the content of the letter. There is little further in-depth discussion of letter in the references, because the letter is mostly used for its intended purpose, which is to present the viewpoint of the signatories as it is written. (Re JzG Point 4) I agree with CryoBiologist that the sources are not churnalism, and neither are all the sources brief. The "St. John's Law Review" article is 33 pages long, with 2 pages dedicated to discussing the feasibility of cryonics. (Re JzG ending points) More than one editor supports the goal of this dispute. See CryoBiologists dispute summary. Yes, I will accept the conclusion of the dispute resolution process, including one that goes against my preferences. However, as Robert McClenon notes, this dispute resolution process may or may not require and include Formal Mediation.

(Re MjolnirPants Summary) While the opinion of leading scientists who are interested in cryonics is certainly a minority opinion (and should be stated as such), it is certainly a common viewpoint -within the population of people who are interested in Cryonics-. Cryonicists (who, as documented, number in the thousands) would certainly not participate in cryonics unless they held some belief that there was a nonzero possibility that cryonics could work.

(Unrelated addition) I should note that every editor who opposes this content, has a long-standing list of edits in the page history that mostly change the article in such a way as to be negative toward cryonics (anti-cryonics). Therefore, while I generally try to assume good intent towards NPOV, I do think it's a possibility that the individual beliefs of the opposing editors is fueling their passion in excluding this viewpoint, in the same way that my own beliefs fuel my desire to include this viewpoint. However, I don't want the article to become one-sided, I only wanted to follow the policies specified in NPOV, specifically regarding including all minority viewpoints, and describing debates rather than participating in them. -- Nome77 (talk) 22:51, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

Talk:Cryonics#Analysis of_Wikipedia_policy_in_context_of_the_.22Scientists_Open_Letter_on_Cryonics.22 discussion

• Volunteer note - There has been considerable discussion on the article talk page, in several sections. Most of the editors have been notified of this filing, but one has not. When that one is notified, and if other parties agree, this case can be opened for moderated discussion. If this case is opened for moderated discussion, it may include all of the recent cryonics-related issues on the talk page, not just one issue. I will note that, with this number of parties, DRN is likely to be feasible, but may not be conclusive, in which case it may result in a referral to formal mediation. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:39, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

I checked each editor talk page, and it appears that each listed editor has now either been notified of the dispute or has commented on the dispute. (including David Gerard). Thanks. -- Nome77 (talk) 00:04, 24 March 2016 (UTC)

Talk:Seth Rollins#The_Sting_quote_is_MISLEADING_as_hell

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Seth Rollins#The Sting quote is MISLEADING as hell (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• 62.19.63.157 (talk · contribs)
• 93.44.152.168 (talk · contribs)
• LM2000 (talk · contribs)
• B. Mastino (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

An old, veteran wrestler has described another young colleague as "the most talented he has ever seen or worked with" in an interview. This has been reported in the intro of aforementioned young wrestler. My friend and I tried to point out what we feel to be some issues inherent to reporting that statement per se and removing its supposed contextualization. Moreover, we are questioning the validity of the source (the veteran wrestler spoke as such in an interview made by the young wrestler's own employing company) and the true meaning behind the words "most talented". If you read the interview in its entirety, it becomes apparent - at least to us - that the "talent" the old wrestler is mentioning is just the young wrestler's ability to keep doing quality work with a higher working schedule than normal during the time they had worked together (in other words: being resourceful professionally and consistent in his work); a wrestling fan would probably take a broader, decontextualized, "the most talented" as in "the most charismatic, the best in the ring" or a combination of both. Both my friend and I think that reporting a stray interview to introduce a concept like "being the best ever" - when there would't even a general consensus about it - it's not really encyclopedic per se; that, and we find the act of removing the context questionable from a journalistic point of view. In addition, there are a lot of other interviews about this or that wrestler that are not reported on Misplaced Pages; rightly so, in our opinion, because if someone started to report every time a wrestler speaks about someone else biographies of living people would get arguably cluttered. We can't edit the page and we have been invited to desist.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

We proposed to either remove the stray interview for keeping a concise, objective intro, or to at least add another interview of another veteran to reinforce the claim, rewording it in what we would feel to be a more sober fashion: "Seth Rollins' work has been praised by industry veterans such as Sting and Triple H " instead of "Industry veteran Sting has described Seth Rollins' as the most talented wrestler he's ever seen, or worked, with". We've been turned down.

How do you think we can help?

It is our belief that the editors are just really passionate about Rollins and probably assumed the interview was undoubtedly worthy of Misplaced Pages. Both removing the stray interview, added in all likelihood just to give Rollins' intro more "oomph", or expanding the claim in the intro by adding a second opinion (see above) for added credibility while writing it more conservatively seem like reasonable resolutions to us.

Summary of dispute by 62.19.63.157

Summary of dispute by 93.44.152.168

Summary of dispute by LM2000

There is no dispute, the issue was brought to the talk page where no less than seven different IPs traced to Naples, Italy made the same argument, in excruciatingly verbose detail. Mastino and I disagreed with their novel interpretations. When sockpuppetry is taken into consideration, there is a 2-1 consensus against changing the quote. Should they not WP:DROPTHESTICK I will take this to WP:SPI. I don't intend to make any further comments here.LM2000 (talk) 00:24, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by B. Mastino.

Here is the comment made by Sting, about Seth Rollins:

After 30 years and working with some of the best and some of the greatest, is, I’m telling you, he’s got to be the best I’ve ever worked with. I mean, this guy has it. And I think he’s just scratching the surface on what he will do. I’ve never seen somebody as talented. He’s working two on Raw, two on the pay-per-view, he’s involved in every other segment and it’s physical. He’s got guys coming from every angle. There’s a lot on his plate. He’s carrying a lot, and he’s handling it. He’s proven he can do it. I’m just glad I had a chance to work with him. He’s the kind of guy who could be in there with a broomstick and make something very interesting happen, a match that people would love somehow.

This has been used to cite the following line in the lede of Seth Rollins:

Industry veteran Steve "Sting" Borden described Rollins as the most talented wrestler he has ever seen, or worked with.

The various IPs (all traceable to Italy and likely the same person) have taken exception to this line, and would like to modify it. I see no grounds for doing so, given that Sting unequivocally called Rollins the best wrestler he's worked with, and the most talented he's seen. The IP basically says my contextual reading isn't up to par, while I say he's bringing his subjective reader interpretation into the mix. Besides the IP-hopping, I suspect there's also an account in existence with a watchlist, given his speedy responses on Talk:Seth Rollins. B. Mastino (talk) 00:35, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

Talk:Seth Rollins#The_Sting_quote_is_MISLEADING_as_hell discussion

• Volunteer note - There has been adequate discussion on the talk page. The filing party has not notified the other editors. It is not important that other editors have seen the filing. The filing party is still responsible for notifying the other editors. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:07, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

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