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Revision as of 12:31, 28 August 2006

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Introduction

I have added the nessary citation link from the "Verifiable source" for the number of books sold world wide. Though that number was published back on 02/16/05 and the number is much larger now, I'm comfortable with that number. mystar24.236.196.174 21:46, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. I was wondering if you could clear up another issue here, though. The recently-released press release about Sam Raimi's interest in filming The Sword of Truth series is quoted as saying that the series has sold 10 million copies in 20 languages. This would seem to conflict with the above figure. Are you aware of an explanation for this discrepency?--Werthead 23:42, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Why, yes I am aware of an explanation :)and the fact that it annoys you to no end is just bonus! Mystar

Erm...and what is this explanation?--Werthead 18:37, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Information from Tor Books' Director of Publicity Agent Elena Stokes Russell Galen on 24/7/06: "Translated into 20 foreign languages, there are over 10 million copies in print." http://www.prophets-inc.com/news/

I'll forebear from putting up this quote in addition to the 50 million one on the front page until Mystar produces an explanation for this discrepency, if he is able to do so.--Werthead 11:54, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Review

I have added a just released review of Terry Goodkind. Mystar 03:06, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Never heard of Darken and Demmin as Russian names. And I lived in the USSR for 18 years. I suppose this must be a misunderstanding originating in some lousy translation. --Oop 08:26, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)

Russian names

"Demmin" could be a misinterpretation of "Demyan", very rare Russian name. And there are no names that look like "Darken".

Career

After discussing this portion with Goodkind,I edited it for errors and proper informationMystar 04:54, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

After looking over a lack of information, I added cited content and material pertinent to the author and his works.

Work

This page needs major work. I am going to commit some time to it, and I hope others will do the same.

I agree with whoever said the above. You can not use the author's own website to justify the greatness of a book. That's like asking Exxon to defend their environmental agenda. Obviously the author thinks his stuff is great. If you are friends with Terry Goodkind, or perhaps the author himself, maybe you should think about letting someone who is slightly more objective edit the page. Provide (verifiable) facts, but not opinions. And in general, the author's word isn't the best source of information - if he was a formula one racer, find an independent verification. I can say I'm an astronaut or have psychic powers, but until someone shows a picture of me in space or I've got a million dollar cheque from James Randi, it's just my opinion. Anyway, I also edited out most of the back and forth in the discussion page, I tried to leave in the relevant stuff that was actually a discussion or a call for more content.

Career section

I removed the bestselling author from the career section, as the only reference was his personal webpage. I removed the 'driven to excel' part because it seems pretty irrelevant to the article. I also changed the grammar a bit to clean it up. I took out the 'artist first and foremost' because that is the author's opinion, not verifiable fact. Plus, who cares?

Influence section

I took out most of this because the second sentence starts with a 'weasel word', then goes on again to talk about what the author thinks. Again, wiki is for encyclopedic stuff, not a chance for the author to sound off. That's what his webpage is for. Plus, it makes TG sound very extreme, and more than a bit crazy.

Fantasy author or novelist section

I took out the 'changed the face of fantasy' bit 'cause it's just his opinion, and this kind of thing can only be seen 10-20 years after the fact. I did leave in the 'his novels dealt primarily with human thought and emotion' bit because he is talking about his novels. Of course, since most novels deal with human thought and emotion, this is kind of redundant, but whatever. I also added the second paragraph, 'cause it seems pretty obvious.

First of all, please don't simply remove other's comments from the talk page. Some consider it irritating, and it's really not necessary; when the page gets too long, it can be archived or refactored.

As for your article edits, you're thinking in the right direction, but I do have concerns. It's a bit silly to remove the "bestselling author" mention, since he is one; a better source is necessary, and I'll add one shortly, but generally instead of removing accurate content that lacks a good source you should just request such a source. "Driven to excel" is a bit excessive, and I'll remove it again myself shortly. "Artist first and foremost" is indeed the author's opinion, which is why it's labelled as such; I think it's worth inclusion, as it presents some of his perspective, which I think is of clear relevance to an article on the man. It needs a specific source, though, as I don't see anything along that line on any of the cited sources.

In the "Influence" section, the claim of preaching also needs a source; I'll tag it shortly. Again, I think Goodkind's own comments on his work are part of a good encyclopedic article on the man. It's not our responsibility to keep him from looking extreme, but to accurately reflect the verifiable facts about him.

"Changed the face of fantasy" once more falls into the relevance of the author's opinions on the genesis and function of his work. Deleting his opinions is not good encyclopedic policy; they're as relevant to the article as any commentary. Your second paragraph about fitting conventions, while true, is not really our judgment to make, and smacks of POV. Brendan Moody 18:46, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I added cited content and material. As for the "Career section", I and a great many people care! He is after all a NYT #1 best seller. it matters. mystar68.188.220.8

Symbolism

Until further notice, I have removed the Symbolism section of this page. Most of this article is speculation and very little of it is correct, in addition, the article is poorly written. For example, the article states that Subtractive Magic sybolizes "the loss of freedom. Subtractive is viewed as evil because it subtracts freedom." Not only is that poor grammar, it is simply not true; subtractive magic is vital to Goodkind's world, and Richard Rahl himself frequently uses it. In fact, the entire book of "Naked Empire" is dedicated to the fact that things like Subtractive Magic and killing, if justified are good, while peace and submission, if unjustified are bad. I can hardly believe you've read through his books and not picked this up by now. You also make a claim that "The central square in the end of the first and second books may also be references to Red Square in St. Petersburg." Red Square is in Moscow, and I doubt very much that Goodkind was refering to Russia when he created Da'Hara. Da'Harans are traditionally blue eyed, blonde haired warriors (Generally an Aryan trait), and the Da'Haran culture is highly patriarchial, not generally a trait seen in Communist Rhetoric. In my opinion,Da'Hara represents Nazi Germany, and yes the old world certainly represents the Soviet Union and communism. There are many other inaccuracies included in this text, and therefore I am scrapping the entire thing. However, Objectivist symbolism is very important in regards to Terry Goodkind's works, so I do intend to add a rewritten version of said article. Thanks,

--TheRedAnthem 02:10, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hypnotist?

I erased the section that said he was a hypnotist. I've been a long fan of his and I've never heard of him working as a hypnotist. Also, let me know if anyone has any projects in construction for this page; I'm a massive fan of Terry and I would like to collaborate with anyone on restructuring this page. --IAlan

Terry Goodkind worked for a short time as a clinical therapist, which included the application s of Hypnotism as therapy. I will be adding the proper references shortly. Mystar 03:34, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Formula One

And where did this claim come from - if it is possible to substantiate this claim please revert the edit - but I know of no such race driver and a Formula One racecar driver?? Kevinalewis 09:51, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi, I got that info from a biography posted of him on the Terry Goodkind forums prepared by Ron Wilson (Mystar) and A.D. Hough (Addicted), acknowledged personal friends of Terry. Here's the quote: "He took up interests in such areas as marine and wildlife art, cabinet making, violin making and rare artifact restoration, and believe it or not, he also trained and drove as a Formula One racecar driver. To this day Terry can be seen racing about on the back roads of a small desert town in his super charged Ferrari when he feels the need…the need for speed!" And here's the thread: http://www.terrygoodkind.net/forums/showthread.php?t=638 I don't really know if it's true, but that's where I got it.

Ok, I can see you have a source. But is that source reliable. Trained as I have no way of checking that! "Drove as" this would normally mean that he drove in at least one Formula One race, which I can find no reference for. It could mean that he drove as a team's test driver, which again is more difficult to check. My guess this is one of those apocryphal stories that gets a life of it's own. That he might have an old Formula One car which he drives, again is not immpossible, in fact with his royalties quite possible! I believe this statment should be left out until a verifiable source can be found. Thanks for checking. Kevinalewis : please contact me on my Talk Page : 16:25, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes this ia a true fact. Goodkind did Train as a Formula One Driver. If anyon efeels the need to add this to the page I can provide proofs from Goodkind himself. Mystar 02:35, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I will be adding the citations and re introducing the information shortly Mystar 03:31, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Philosophical Views!

"Also, when his novels were accused of being a bit "too preachy" by a fan during the same chat, Goodkind explained to those present who had criticized his writing style with such harsh criticism of the base philosophy and the moral and ethical values contained within the series, saying that they were not fans, and that they hated that his novels existed. He also claimed "their goal is not to enjoy life, but to destroy that which is good... These people hate what is good because it is good." We have seen the full effect and thuth of this fact by the attacks against the values with in the series, against the moral and ethicial set the characters uphold.

With these comments and several others, Goodkind effectively drew a line in the sand, implying that you were either with him or against him....."

--[[U

Uhm, he's an Objectivist. What do you expect? Alienus 02:40, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually I don't disagree they are not too preachy. What I object to is when people try and hide the message that they are pushing, so that you are potentially taking on the ideas subliminally. At least Terry is upfront, it is obvious but not overpowering. Personally I don't agree with Terry's "Objectivism" but he does write a "Stonking" garn. :: Kevinalewis : 08:53, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

You show your true color when you use such harsh and verbal abuse as crazy and nut case. While you may not like Goodkind or his works, lowering yourself to bring your dislike to a personal low by such an action. You have blatantly misinturpited the interview and Terry's words that is the offense. You are, as you said you would do on your website Malazan Forums, write up something devious to stir up things a bit. While you may well think Goodkind is saying something, you are taking it out of context and making his words fit your scenario. I am a good friend of Goodkind's and I can assure you that the only controversy is in your head. You have no right to try and make Misplaced Pages your soapbox simply because you don't like Goodkind. Mystar 11:52, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Whatever their motivations, the links seem to be genuine. I don't really care how wonderful a friend he is to you: he actually said the things he is quoted as saying. Alienus 03:11, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

While the links are genuine, the supposed "controversy" is not. It is simply something someone is using as a basis simply because they do not care for Goodkind and wish to place him in a negative light based on their POV. It is very interesting AND telling that this poster of the controversy post singles out a specific item and twists it to use as a pejorative attempting to make Goodkind look inflammatory. Any book ever written is in some part a philosophical opinion or view of the author, so if you find a book not to your liking, don't read it, or stop reading it. I have more of a problem with the fact that this sad individual chooses to state a fact that he CANNOT back, that being "Recently Goodkind has come under fire from critics and fans alike for comments he made about his work". Oddly enough he cannot provide any verification for this boast. mystar1959

If you can show that the quotes are taken out of context so as to be misleading, then you may have a case. Otherwise, I don't see any basis for your complaint. Alienus 04:27, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

go to any message board about literature, anywhere on the internet and mention terry goodkind. i almost guarantee you'll immediately be flamed mercilessly for liking the guy. whether you call it a controversy or not, you can't ridicule your own fans and expect to get away with it. so people like to read the sword of truth books for the fantasy involved. is that so wrong? i literally skipped dozens of pages at a time while reading the last three or four books and didn't feel like i'd missed anything. just because you criticize an author's work, that doesn't mean that you "hate everything that is good omg". richard rahl is the fantasy equivalent of a backwoods hick, yet all of a sudden he can speak for hours about philosophy, use a sword and magic at master levels with no training, and solve any problem, no matter how hard it would be for anyone else. it's shoddy writing but oh noez!!!11!1 since i said that i "hate everything that is good". give me a break. levid37

Well, there you have it! We have a person who has in his own words hates Goodkind. HE hates that Goodkind's works exist. SO because of that he feels it is his task to post misinformation and a slanted post about this person he so hates. That's not an attack of personal slander? We go further, this poor person feel that anyone anywhere can go to any rabid fan site dedicated to the author of other fantasy series and expect nothing but praise and worship for other authors? Again I challenge the validity of his claims. What we have here is as I stated earlier. A sad little person who has little time on his hands but to try and drag his personal crusade onto other respectable sites. Paste his personal crusade to smear and disparage someone simply because he doesn't like what Goodkind has written and written so well that Goodkind has sold millions and millions of books and has become one of the top selling series in fantasy. Yes, yes by al means allow personal smear campaigns like that. It makes Misplaced Pages look like some two bit fantasy rabid fan site with no creditability.

As to the point I made earlier. SHOW ME THE CONTRAVSRY and not just a sad little person bent on a smear campaign. Show me that his post is IN context. Show me the critic that are putting him under fire. I see NO such link, I see no such validation simply that one person has made a statement of his OWN personal feelings.

Fan's may or many not like a work. So what! Not every person will like exactly everything that is written or written by a favored author. SO is that validation to call him names and ridicule? I think not and especially not on such a place as Misplaced Pages. Again we have someone making a claim that he cannot back up. Simply put there is a link to an interview that the poster wishes to place his OWN spin on and that's it. I thought as do many others that Misplaced Pages had a higher standard and was a place for honest, unbiased and factual information, not a two bit rag that allows rabid smear tactics.mystar1959

dude, calm down. I do not HATE terry goodkind and i do not HATE that his works exist. now who's taking someone's words out of context? taking it personal much? and did i say "go to another author's page and talk about goodkind"? no. my exact words were "go to any message board about literature". yeah, i know, "any message board" includes other author's message boards but i assumed that one would know the difference.

and as far as this "hating" terry goodkind, nowhere did i say that i hated him or his works. honestly, i enjoy aspects of his work. enough aspects, in fact, that i would consider myself a fan. but at the same time, i think that other aspects are in fact preachy and overdrawn. but according to the comments made BY THE AUTHOR, you can't do both. you can't be a fan who criticizes. and before you deny that claim, think about this: every time i've ever tried to write any sort of criticism or what i thought of terry or his work on his official website, even if it's filled with glowing praise, as long as it's contained one single, solitary gripe, no matter how small, about the book or his beliefs, it's been immediately deleted by a mod. apparently terry and his mods don't like us ignorant fans dissecting his work. go figure. and btw, you seem to be taking this a little personal. the fact is, goodkind did say those things. so an individual (or group of individuals) doesn't heap praise on an author. that doesn't make it a smear campaign. it's their opinion and they have a right to it. that doesn't automatically mean they "hate what is good." levid37

What you and so many fail to see and rail against is the thematic nature of the series. The brevity, the heroics, heroic and the nobility overcoming with out sacrificing your values and ethics. Seeing in literature a story where one can indeed win with out compromising his nature or values. NOW here the proof is in the truth of your admission. You admit to “skimming pages and chapters, then you feel qualified to give commentary and critique? Please! You just disqualified yourself from any kind of notion that anyone would take you or your comments with anything more than uneducated and unfounded babble Again I'll post the comments, which no one else has done, and show the context. I appreciate and accept the change made to the topic title, which is more fitting, but still not in keeping with what Misplaced Pages was created for and is used for. Lets not allow Misplaced Pages to turn into another all tings go message board for posting things simply because you don’t like that person. Isn’t there enough nastiness in the world? Aren’t there enough places where untoward and tawdry remarks are used to besmirch a person reputation? As I understood it and read it, Misplaced Pages and its nature is not to allow personal vendettas to rule someone’s post. I find I am mistaken.

First I have to be in New York for the next three days, so if you'll forgive my absence until then, I'll only be too happy to provide you with the factual context and where the sad people with no life keep missing the point, context and issue. I will also say this, "enemies are the price of honor". mystar1959

You're right, there is way too much nastiness in the world. So I propose a truce, wherein we can come to an understanding. i for one am willing to put away my biting sarcasm if you're willing to stop calling me uneducated :)

i just want to clarify. i in no way shape or form dislike terry goodkind. i don't dislike his works or his philosophies. he has every right to his beliefs just like anyone else. all i'm saying, is that i personally enjoy his works for their fantasy aspects. i can't help but feel the slightest bit insulted when an author assumes that i hate his works and that i hate his beliefs just because i get a bit bored with the constant philosophical speeches in his novels. and don't think that just because i skip a paragraph or two here and there that i don't fully understand or dislike the ideas he's putting forth. i was exaggerating for the sake of exaggeration when i said i skipped chapters and pages. all i'm saying is that i just feel that sometimes richard or zedd can be a little long-winded in their speeches. you don't have to beat me over the head with a philosophical brick every three pages, i get the idea.

i'll say it again. i don't hate terry goodkind. i don't hate his work. maybe i AM taking his words out of context. i'm willing to give the man the benefit of the doubt. it's the least i can do for the hours of entertainment he's given me, and i'll be happy to rationally discuss the topic til i'm blue in the face.

I fail to see the reason for dissent here. Terry Goodkind's works have been a source of controversy and debate for a long time on many forums (including but not limited to Westeros.org, Malazanempire.com, Wotmania.com, SF.com.rec.arts and others), in critical assessments of the Sword of Truth series and in print reviews. There is a controversy, even if it is relatively mild compared to say, the debates that raged in the past over L. Ron Hubbard's work. I think acknowledging it is merely enough, however. Going into detail (for example, about the Canada incident, the instant self-contradictions etc) is probably pushing the boundaries of Misplaced Pages's fairness. On the other hand, refusing to mention it at all would also be dishonest. --Werthead 18:57, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

What is dishonest is that you’re thinking these rabid fan boy message boards are something akin to the majority of the worldview. Sorry to burst your bubble, they are not. You have no source for any "critical views" save those of armchair critics. The only so called " controversy" is with you and a handful of fantasy geeks. Any "in print" reviews you will not find "controversy". We all get you have some kind of burr under your saddle. We al get you don't like Goodkind. That does not give you the right to vandalize his page or to keep posting unverifiable information. It does not give you the right to post your slanted POV. Listing a bunch of crazy fan boy boards is not considered a source. You truly need to learn what a source is and that your personal dislike is not reason enough to continue to vandalize this and other pages. I suggest you learn that befor your actions are sanctioned Mystar 12:32, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

In an attempt to rationalise the debate somewhat, I will concur that my comments above (taken at a time when I was new to Misplaced Pages) are somewhat irrelevant to this article, although simultaneously pointing out that they are not reflected in the article itself, rather as rebuttal for your claim that there is no debate. There is a debate about Goodkind, fiercely fought and widespread across SF&F fandom, but as it is a POV and matter-of-opinion discussion, it is perhaps not entirely relevant to discuss in this article. However, I do object to being accused of vandalising this page. I have never done so. Your repeated lies that I have done so are frankly childish and unworthy of you. If you withdraw these baseless accusations and apologise, I will withdraw my above comments and consent to having this exchange deleted from the discussion page so other subjects may be discussed.--Werthead 23:38, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Photo

The article says he was born in 1948, so that photo can't be all that recent. Is there one available that isn't quite so old? Alienus 04:06, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes. I just got off the phone with Terry and he stated that he much prefers that photo, but if you give me an e-mail address I'll send you a few recent ones to post. mystar@chartermi.net will reach me faster than webmaster@terrygoodkind.net as I'll be out of town for the next few days. mysar1959

I sent you a letter by email, since you asked. Having said that, anyone can guess my gmail account name without straining their brains. :-)

As I see it, there's no reason for us not to honor his preference for the photo currently up. However, there's also no reason for us to exclude a more recent photo. I can imagine fan coming to a signing and failing to recognize Goodkind because all they've ever seen is this rather dated photo.

It is vital for Misplaced Pages purposes that you state the licensing constraints. Please take a look at this page for details, or just upload the images yourself. Whatever works. Alienus 19:16, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Ok, Mystar1959 was kind enough to provide three recent photos of Goodkind for use here. At his request, I've uploaded them, and I'd like you all to take a look and tell me which one(s) you'd like to add to the article.

Alienus 03:18, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Personally I don't think any of them are necessary, but whatever floats your boat. Btw, that painting he has is awesome! I want it! 63.144.93.66 13:50, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

removal of editorializing

The material I've removed is poorly sourced, and Goodkind's publicist has written to us claiming that the purported interview upon which it is based never took place. I don't believe that this section is relevant to the article anyway. It's unencyclopedic and POV-driven. These sorts of definitional issues are not relevant to Goodkind's life and work. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 15:17, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Biographical information, especially concerning the author's attitude towards writing, is highly relevant. Now, if Goodkind wishes to deny the factuality of the quotes, he's welcome to. It would then be up to us to determine if there is a substantial difference in credibility or if we would do best to simply let both sides speak.

In short, while I'm open to further work on this section, there is no excuse for removing it. In the meantime, let's leave the text alone. If you want to flag it with a sectional POV warning, that's reasonable. If you want to mark parts as uncited, that's also reasonable. Wholesale censorship, however, is unacceptable. Alienus 16:50, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Editing is not censorship. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 18:04, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Correct: censorship is a subset of editing. I suggest that you avoid this subset and stick to more constructive areas. Alienus 18:26, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Blah Blah Blah

Clean up of discussion page?

Would anyone mind if we clean up the discussion page? It's getting quite long now, especially with those images on it.

I'm a huge fan of Terry Goodkind. I'm the one who created all those gazillions of wikipedia SOT articles you see (no thanks required). However, I feel that the section in question on this page should not be removed. It has been re-worded and is no longer POV-driven. I believe it actually puts Goodkind in a favorable light. It shows how he is more than a uthor, he is a novelist and is revolutionizing the fantasy genre. It shows him the way he wants to be seen, using his own words nonetheless (how can that be POV?). If, for some reason, Terry has something against this being shown and wishes to retract or clarify what he said, then that should be added to this article as well, or the section can be modified in some other way if you want... but there's no reason to remove it completely in my opinion, especially since it actually shows Goodkind in a favorable light. Also, I think that the POV tag should be removed. 63.144.93.66 17:22, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Before we shuffle those three images links off into an archive, do you have any opinion on them? Alienus 17:56, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't have an opinion on the images. I don't feel that it's necessary to add them to the page, but I'm not against it. I don't believe anyone would be unable to recognize him at a book signing, especially considering he'd be the one sitting behind the desk with a pen and a stack of his books and a line of people in front of him... Besides, I don't think his appearance has really changed all that much. 63.144.93.66 18:18, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, from the rather unflattering second picture, you might think he's aged a century and now tends to fall asleep while talking, so let's just throw that one out. The first would be ok, but it's a tiny picture, and he's a tiny part of it; I have to squint to see if he's in it at all. The last has a lot going for it, in that it's recent and accurate. The only problem is that it's HUGE. It wouldn't be hard to trim out all the background to leave just Goodkind in a chair, but I'm not sure that I'm the best person for such a task and I suspect that the original source of the image is not going to volunteer to help me on anything. Alienus 18:35, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Well we see just what an ass you realloy are. Just how is it that you assume that someone "tends to fall asleep while talking" jusyt looking at a picture? I think you are clearly showing your biase and why this page is having such problems. The problem is you and your allowing of personal poor judgment into it all. 66.0.21.162 14:54, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

You are violating both WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL, which says a lot about you, and nothing about me. It particularly shows that you have poor judgement and a short temper.

I said that the second picture makes him look very old and as if he tends to fall asleep while talking. You'll note that the photographer caught him in a blink, which is what leads to that perception. I said this to point out why the picture is unacceptable. If I were some insane Goodkind-basher, I'd be insisting on using whatever picture made him look worst.

You owe me an apology, but I'm not holding my breath. Anyone who lacks the courtesy to log in can't be expected to follow other courtesies. Alienus 17:16, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Nobody ever owes anyone an apology. An apology that is given when due cannot truly be an apology in the first place. ℬastique▼♥♑ 19:42, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

The man said it. He dug a hole, which his supporters appear to be unable to realise that they are digging deeper. In any case, its not his writing which disturbs me as much as his dress sense in those photos.

I don't particularly see how calling fantasy a "tired, empty genre" can be looked at in a favorable light. Honestly though, I'm tired of debating it. Every time I try to make a point Goodkind's supporters either ignore it or lash back with insults. As long as the link to the original chat and the link to inchoatous's essay on it stays up I don't care what the article itself says. Anyone who reads either of them will see the truth. It's clear to me now that no criticism of Terry Goodkind will ever exist on wikipedia because GOD FORBID anyone say something unfavorable about someone's favorite author, whether it's true or not. Levid37

I agree that the fantasy genre is tired and empty compared to many other genres. Does that mean I should be looked at negatively as a person? The "truth" you're claiming is your own opinion and wikipedia is NPOV. 24.11.36.143 00:33, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Verifiability of "online chat"

A contributor has brought up the issue of usage of this online chat as a source for article content, given that the article in question at inchoatus.com, contains no sourcable information. The editorial points to a now nowhere-to-be-found online chat of Terry Goodkind and therefore fails WP:V. The information about Goodkind's opinions should be removed once and for all. Had this information been published in a credible news source, it would meet verifiability standards. Chat transcripts, incedentally, are not a credible source of information. Goodkind's opinions that are contained in this section, however likely they had been expressed, should not be considered factual and should be now removed from the article. Bastique▼ _voir 14:01, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Listen to the pink triangle. --Cyde↔Weys 14:06, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

There's an ongoing attempt to censor the contents of the online chat in an effort to whitewash Goodkind's rep. I prefer that the truth be told, so that people can decide for themselves. The entire chat was posted on Goodkind's official website, then removed once it was referenced in this article. Mirrors remain, as do verifiable articles that reference this chat, therefore any removal is not only premature, but constitutes a contination of the censorship effort. For this reason, I will continue to oppose such attempts. Thank you for understanding. Al 17:17, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

You need to do one better than saying merely "mirrors remain" and "verifiable articles reference this chat". Can we please get some links? Remember WP:V. --Cyde↔Weys 17:39, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Your wish is my command. Al 17:46, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

The interviews mentioned were not removed due to anyone getting negative feed back. If you haven't noticed the site is undergoing some updating. The interviews will be placed as they are quite specifically something Goodkind wishes, as well as his fans.

I take offices again at the underhanded attempts to place such POV opinion on a site that is supposed to be " encyclopedic" rather than a format for misinformation and a feeding frenzy for rabid anti Goodkind trolls to post false information. Lets get it right people.

As I search the links that were provided by whoever... they lead to nothing more than personal blog's, messages boards, but nothing of any professional or creditable content. I think we can all see the point here is not follow the rules, or provide "encyclopedic" information, but rather to get as much trash talk about the author, simply because some people think it funny. Oh, BTW, I do have the links and copy of said trolls discussing this very tactic. To place disparaging information. Saying "We should add this stuff to Goodkind Misplaced Pages page to drive his fan's nuts". SO tell "Al" me what is it that finds you not only incapable of following the rules and allowing trite content, but pushing it. The said links had nothing to do with anything more than offering up negative opinions and POV reviews that are not even from a professional source? That are just the musings of a wanna be critic? Not to mention the attempted little jibs at Goodkind character that these trolls keep trying to add?

24.236.196.174 06:46, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

It may well be that the chat log was removed for incidental reasons, but the timing suggests otherwise. If I'm mistaken, though, then the best way to prove me wrong is to ensure that the chat log is restored on the site so we can link to it directly.

Through the miracle of Google cache, I have a full copy of the log, but there's a legal threat on the page, so I'm not going to post it up without permission. In the meantime, I'm linking to the Google cache (as their lawyers can handle the flak) and also linking to blogs that contain what I know to be accurate quotes from the chat log, as well as support the claim that some fans have reacted negatively to what they perceive as Goodkind's hubris.

There is such a thing as being pro or con, but there's also the middle ground of neutrality, which is often hated by the extremes. Al 19:02, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

We have no problem with "middle" ground, and we WANT the interviews posted, BUT you seem to what? Think it funny to post links of people personal blogs, simply because they are derisive towards Goodkind, not to mention the links to message boards with nothing to do with the real interviews. MY original complaint was the fake interview, by Worthead et al. It was removed, yet now you seem to be as biased as these anti-Goodkind fans in placing anything that will sound of a negative tone. I have reviewed the rules and you have repeatedly violated the rules several times over. You sir are not being "Neutral", but rather are going out of your way to provide anything you can find that has a negative aspect, being provided to you by these same people.

As I have said, with any book, you will find people who agree and who also disagree. I see nowhere in any of any posts made by you on any other topic such a vehement disregard to the rules except this one. Not to mention your proclivity to insure that only negative commentary is posted at this site.

Again WIkipedia is supposed to be "encyclopedic" and not yours or anyone else "soap box" simply because they find they do not like the topis/person. 24.236.196.174

As for the afore mentioned interviews, you may or may not have noticed .com is undergoing a new look. Some of the content is not yet restored, but will be.

However, that is not the point. So Goodkind has an opinon of his works? So a few trolls got togather and asked Goodkind a loaded question, after posting that it was going to be a loaded question, and afterwards admidted that it was loaded... What you have is simply an interview. Some would wish to make more of it than it is. The point is that this site is for encyclopedic information and not for cross burning. You are allowing the cross burners a forum for their POV, when the site should be information as to the author and not petty gripes a few disgruntles ex-fans have.

I have reviewd many many other wilipedia pages and see nothing like the crap you keep allowing here.

So S'up with that eh?

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Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate collection of information Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate collection of items of information. That something is 100% true does not mean it is suitable for inclusion in an encyclopedia. While there is a continuing debate about the encyclopedic merits of several classes of entries, current consensus is that Misplaced Pages articles are not:

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Misplaced Pages is not a battleground Also, do not create or modify articles just to prove a point Need I say more?Mystar

You've said a lot, but I don't see where you've specifically addressed the issues that are relevant to this article. Please do so. Al 18:41, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

"MY original complaint was the fake interview, by Werthead et al". Please explain this comment as I cannot fathom the reasoning behind it. What fake interview are you referring to? I see that my comments earlier with regard to book sales have been deleted from this discussion page. I would like to know who did this and for what reasoning? Finally, you require a source to say that the SoT series has sold 50 million copies as there is absolutely no evidence for this. Tor's biggest-selling author has been repeatedly acknowledged by Tor themselves as Robert Jordan, who it is estimated has sold 20-30 million books. If you are saying that TG has sold nearly twice as many, you require proof, preferrably a direct quotation from a verifiable source at Tor Books.--Werthead 12:36, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Mystar has provided a source for his 50 million claim. Unfortunately that source is hardly unbiased (TG's agent). A verifiable source from Tor Books itself would be preferred, if at all possible. TG's French publishers have suggested worldwide sales of 11 million, which concurs with other available data. That he has sold nearly five times as many seems highly improbable.--Werthead 18:17, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Unbiased or not, it is the duty of the agent to provide the numbers from "all" sources, not just what one or two may think the sales are. That someone may find a thing " improbable” doesn’t make it untrue. My contacts at Tor (Tom Doherty included), confirms the ever-expanding demand from the market for Goodkind's backlist. What worthead seems to be missing is that the "11 Million" figure is coming from "one" foreign source. And we should also remember that Goodkind has publishers in many various parts of the world. When you take the combined totals, including those in Russia, China, Italy, Japan, India, (the list goes on, the number is indeed very believable. Goodkind’s foreign sales are reaching higher and higher numbers weekly. The foreign sales of the Sword of Truth Series have been a pleasant surprise to many. My ties at Tor also confirm a high record number of foreign sales, not just in books but the exceptional number of sales of the Audio books as well. I also have close ties to the Audio publisher and they confirm a large increase in the Audio sales of the Series. I’m sorry this seems to cause some great discomfort, but I’m sure it isn’t, or shouldn’t be an end to your world.Mystar 03:13, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

The amusing way you propogate your misinformation is not going to end my world any time soon. Nevertheless, until such time as your sales figures are verified by Tor Books themselves on their own page or in an interview with a reputable source, your figure remains highly questionable. I will allow it to stand with the caveat that source must be quoted in the article until such time as it is proven or disproven, however.--Werthead 16:55, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

LMAO! sorry, I'm unable to stop laughing here... You have no choice but to let it stand, you have no authority otherwise. Like it or not, Tor is only a small COG in the wheel of sales. YOU may well not like the "reputable" source, but then again, what you don't like is irrelevant. Feel free to contact the myriad publishers and resellers world wide......"allow it to stand....roflmao.... Mystar

No. The onus is on you to prove your point, not on me to disprove it. Misplaced Pages works on the basis of providing sources. You have provided a single source which would appear to be biased. Nevertheless, it is a source and thus is acceptable. You have not provided a single iota of evidence for your other points, but since you have restricted this hollow posturing to the talk page and not brought it onto the main page, this is irrelevant. And I have the ability, as does everyone here, to report offending contributors to the moderators, which is what I meant by that comment.--Werthead 18:03, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh, BTW, stop editing my posts, that is indeed vandalizing and shall be reported as such! If you do not like how I spell or how I post, then I suggest you stop reading them. Mystar

I have not edited any of your posts at all, whilst on the other hand you have admitted deleting two of my points because you could not answer them with any verifiable facts. I suggest restricting your hypocrisy from now on. Thank you..--Werthead 18:03, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Alienus and Mystar

I begin to see the problem. After reviewing your talk page and seeing first hand the simply fact you have a problem. You have been blocked on numerous occasions for the same garbage you are doing here. You have been warned repeatedly and continue to violate the rules and policies of Misplaced Pages. Your personal opposition to anything Rand or of any objectivists is clear. How you were able to become a mod is beyond me. The simple fact is that you are not only creating, but also perpetuating rule breaking and continued violations and it need to be stopped. YOU have an aversion to allowing anyone/thing Rand or objectivist to be seen in a positive light. You seem to think that it is being fair to only allow disparaging or derogatory content to be placed.

We now see the problem. We call for an end to your personal war and biased. Shame on you AL. June 2006]

I'm going to assume good faith and remain civil. Sadly, doing so leaves me with nothing further to say. Perhaps if you stopped talking about me and started talking about the article, I might have something to contribute. Thank you for understanding. Al 18:39, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately As I have stated, you ignore the rules and keep placing inappropriate information and allow your personal distaste to run this page. You have nothing further to say, because I've hit the nail on the head. You have added improper content and insist on placement of negative and unnecessary content. You have not only allowed, but also placed and replaced personal blog’s of people simply due to the fact they have a personal issue and distain for the author. You have allowed links that are nothing more than POV bias against the author when he was attacked for his personal beliefs and defended himself. You have added non-neutral bias and refuse to follow the rules. One only has but to look at your talk page and see the problem that you will only allow your personal ideology against anyone of an objectivist standpoint. It is truly telling that these people worthead et al, are your "buddies", you have been blocked and reprimanded for such behavior on other Misplaced Pages pages and responded to your superiors with acerbic commentary. SO yes I am talking "TO" you as well as pointing out your failure to adhere to the policies you agreed to uphold. Mystar 21:58, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Two things:

1) It would be helpful if you could restore the original chat log to the web site sooner rather than later. This way, I no longer need to link to sources solely on the basis that they contain accurate quotes from the log.

2) Aside from not wanting blog links, was there anything in specific that you would change? Al 22:05, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

The interviews and past chat section has been up for two months. http://www.prophets-inc.com/the_author/ipc.html

Though I again point out that you have gone over the edge with your determination to disparage Goodkind or myself or the Webmaster of another site with the false assumption that interviews were removed out of fear. You attempt to apply the appearance that someone is afraid these will be seen. Your placement and wording “but this was taken down shortly after some negative feedback by fans.” Again as I stated from the start are specific inflamatory designed to invoke a negitive reaction or the reader rather than invoke the reader to cerebration.

Again I point out that Misplaced Pages is not your personal soap box or stomping ground.

The fact that some few people find Goodkind responding to barbed question swith the aplumb and tactfullness not to their taste or perssonal liking has nothing to do with an informational page. If you wish garbage lieke that to be discussed, that is why Misplaced Pages has a “Discussion” page. Youporvlivity to push out assumed negitive overtones is not in keeping with the fan base even at a smal point. A few select group of rabble rousers wish to put forth their distane of Goodkind. Fine. That is why they have message boards. Misplaced Pages is not a message board, nor is it desgined to relay personal distaste, as you have shown to rule the face page.

The simple fact that Goodkind has his roots in Randian philosophy is not cause for you or others to try to decay his page. Reading your talk page is telling indeed. It not only shows your inability to follow the rules, but reads with the paranoia of a petty adolesent who has abused his power. Telling indeed.

YOU have allowed the term “Crazy” to not only be used but to be topic/title for a section within the discussion page. Goodkind has neither exibited such tendancy’s nor been accused of any thing more than supporting his values and beliefs. Goodkind again defends his POV with fact and consicely, accuratly exposes the question for what it is. Simply because a few lost souls have misunderstood and rejected Goodkinds works and words as execrable, does not give them license to falsly state that “Recently Goodkind has come under fire from critics and fans alike for comments he made about his work”. When only a couple of people have voiced their discent and not one critic has yet to state such a thing. Yes, one person who is nothing more than an opininated bloger has posted what he assumes to be a “Review” yet, he is not in any sence of the word anything more than an arimchair critic. He is neither a profesional or otherwise anything more than a bloger with a smelly armpit. We all have them.

SO you have a problem, I see you willing to remain sacrastic and unyealding to the proper eticutte and rules, in favor of your ability to edit in favor of your personal tastea and opinion. You have proven you have no “good faith” to which I can believe in. I have been proven wrong a time or two, but I’m usually spot on.

I shall take it to the next level. Mystar

Thanks for providing the a link to the chat log. Unfortunately, your edit wasn't quite right, but it was easy enough to fix. Now the article is much improved by having a good citation for that section. Al 06:25, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Mystar, Bastique has asked for a more specific link. From looking around, I wasn't sure which chat had the quotes that are in the article. Got a more specific link? Al 03:28, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Page has been Vanadalized

Never Mind, I figured out how to fix it.

It appears that someone has valdaized this page. They have changed the references of objectivisim, to communisim, and thrown a blurb in the online quote about him wanting people to commit suicide. Is there anyone out there that can fix this.

Regarding Mystar's Edits

Mystar, I understand your desire to reduce clutter on the talk page, and thanks for trying to help. However, please don't delete large sections of the talk page. Instead of deleting, archive the sections instead, that way people will be able to access the discusions if they desire without having to see them all on the main talk page. Deleting large portions of text, even on the talk page, is considered by many to be vandalism. Just wanted to let you know. - Runch 14:27, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

ahhhhh My bad, I didn't know anything about archiving. I'm just not up on all this new fangled stuff! I would suggest that someone please archive several sections as they are really meaningless and not pertinate to the subject at hand. The page is too cluttered with things that are not of any importMystar

Your opinion on what is and what is not of any import is irrelevant. It is also clear that you are familiar with Misplaced Pages usage policy and procedure based on your above dispute with Alienus. Thus your decision to remove large amounts of text including my questions regarding sales was clearly pre-meditated. Any further action of this sort will resort in a formal complaint to the moderators about your conduct. I suggest you modify your behaviour accordingly.--Werthead 17:01, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Just as a policy note, when a talk page is archived, it is done so based upon the date of the postings, not the subjective "importance". On Misplaced Pages, all discussion is equally important, and respect for everyone's opinions is a key issue. Regarding this talk page, it really doesn't need any archiving yet. In my experience, most talk pages aren't archived until they reach 75+ KB in length; this one is only at about 45 KB. - Runch 14:37, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Sadly Worthead, I "didn't get caught by the mods" I made a choice to remove a considerable amount of drivel, pertinent (in your eyes) or not simply takes up a good deal of space and is really nothing but POV/opinion that has nothing to do with Goodkind’s POV or works. If the admins/powers that be wish it to stay, fine. As for Misplaced Pages, I'm simply learning the ropes. As for your "Your opinion on what is and what is not of any import is irrelevant", sorry you again show not only your ignorance but just how much this truly gets under your skin and keeps you up at night. Any Changes I make are relevant and important, as they are specifically discussed with Goodkind. Further, even in the event they were not (you'll no doubt have another red-faced tirade on your home page at this but who cares), "MY" opinion is justly as important of not more so as my facts are accurate and accurately backed with fact in print and reference. I suggest you keep that in mind next time.

As for Al, yes we see what happened to him didn't we... You cannot go on a personal crusade to discredit and besmirch someone page and not be taken to task for it. Al got what I, and a great many feel he more than deserved.

As you most likely are not aware of (and we know that we haven't even begun to scratch the surface of that issue), is that I have been in contact with Runch and a few others with respect to making significant additions and changes in bringing Goodkind’s page up to standards and up to date, eliminating the so called speculation and nonsense items. Oh one last thing, you have no authority here anymore that I or any one of the myriad of users, your "I suggest you modify your behavior" is a laughable cliché and hollow threat... Any "complaints" are welcome and encouraged, they will fall on def ears as I have committed no offences, but go ahead. Keep us amused at your inability to fathom truth and integrity Mystar 19:10, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Recent Edits

Mystar, I know you have the best of intentions regarding the Terry Goodkind page here on Misplaced Pages, but you need to be able to respect other people's ability to edit the page. The recent edits made by Brendan Moody were perfectly legitimate. Citations really are needed for sweeping statements such as: "Terry Goodkind has been called one of the most phenomenally successful new fantasy writers of the 1990s". With a citation that leads you to the individual(s) that made the statement, the statement suddenly becomes credible.

Also, Goodkind is not best known for his paintings; he is, at least now, best known for his Sword of Truth series. As a result, I think Brendan Moody's edits on this section should remain as well.

I welcome discussion on the subject, but please keep it civil. Thanks, Runch 15:15, 17 July 2006 (UTC).

Thanx Runch, I appericate your help

And they in turn should respect my edits as well. The fact that Goodkind is most notably known "now" for his Sword of Truth Series is only what has occurred "now". He was (as I had stated) first and foremost an artist, which he will also attest to at this point. He "was" most notably known. It didn't need to be changed. If Moody wished to add that his recent notoriety is that of the Author of the Sword of Truth Series, fine, but Moody changed what was the emphasis of Goodkind's work up to that point.

As for the Citation needed, Again I disagree, as all anyone has to do is to read the reviews of that specific time. The fact that someone now wishes to say, "oh I can't get past that with out needing to be pointed in the right direction" is just silly.

~shrugs~

I suppose we should also then require a citation for every statement then, Goodkind went to school..., Goodkind dropped out of Collage. I mean what if he didn't! What if he kept going, I think it need a citation...OH and We simply must put a citation on the fact that Goodkind has been largely influenced by the books of Ayn Rand. ;p my point being we can citation to death and it looks like that is going to happen. The simply fact is Goodkind has been so stated over and over again, as holding still to date the record for the highest paid manuscript of a first time author for the U. S. rights. And Goodkind had held it since the publication of Wizards First Rule. Perhaps we should also place that on his main page, as it is not only verifiable but not in dispute by any publisher or agency.

I welcome changes, but when we get to a point when the changes are nothing so much as trolling looking to add contrib’s to get a leg up, it is a bit ridiculous. But I’m just one lone person…btw doesn’t Goodkind have any say on what he wishes his own page to say?

Mystar 01:31, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

First, the painting. Your description of what the article used to say is incorrect, and it did need changing. What the article said before my initial alteration was "Terry Goodkind is an artist first and foremost. Most notably he is known for his realistic marine and wildlife paintings." This is confusing phrasing for someone described in the article lead as a writer. I have no objection to the article mentioning that Goodkind paints, or that his paintings are popular and acclaimed, or that prior to his books being published he was best known as a painter, provided that these facts have verifiable sources attached to them. Everything in a Misplaced Pages article should, so, although you intended the comment ironically, "we should also then require a citation for every statement."

Everything, by the way, includes statements like "Terry Goodkind has been called one of the most phenomenally successful new fantasy writers of the 1990s." Regardless of your personal feelings, it is not enough to say "all anyone has to do is to read the reviews of that specific time;" the verifiability policy says that sources should be cited whenever possible. Since the phrase seems to refer to a specific quote, finding a source, or a similar quote that makes the same point, should hardly be that difficult.

You can indeed add the information about Goodkind's advance if you can source it; I've seen it in a couple reputable sources myself, so it's definitely appropriate in principle.

The rest of your comments are unnecessarily rude and violate the policy regarding civility and the one requiring users to assume good faith. Brendan Moody 03:53, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

The problem with "phenomenally successful" is that it is used in such a vast manor it no longer holds the meaning I think you wish to make it seem. While it is possible to dig up several reviews and articles offering that exacting verbage, it isn't like it needs verifying. Lets take a walk through any search engine for the sake of time and effort we will limit our search to google. I widely used and much like Misplaced Pages, for the most part respected... http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Terry+Goodkind+phenomenally+successful&btnG=Search

Paging through the hundreds of pages we find hundreds of uses for the term "phenomenally successful".

I guess I need ask, to which do you need citation? That someone somewhere wrote it? That someone somewhere said it? That someone somewhere printer it, referred to it, referenced it, or is it just plausible enough that "phenomenally successful" can stand on its own merits in that the person having any "success" is a phenomenon. Or perhaps that the term "phenomenally successful" means that he is read world wide with millions of sales... Personally I think that is citation enough, but that's just "my humble opinion". Oh and please note I'm making a "matter of fact" statement. Please try not to read any inference of emotion I am not placing in my post. Were I to be offended or injecting rudeness I would most assuredly apprise you of it. I may well not have the astounding abilities to interject the exact inference you think I am offering; I am simply stating what I see as the situation. Then again, people will usually only see what they expect to see.

Mystar 04:10, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I have no idea what you think I wish to make "phenomenally successful" seem to mean; I'm not even sure how its meaning is particularly disputable. None of the Google search results (which cover eight pages, not hundreds) for "Terry Goodkind phenomenally successful" actually use the phrase "phenomenally successful" to refer to Goodkind himself, except quotes from Misplaced Pages and its mirrors. This doesn't matter anyway, as simply pulling a source from a Google search is not good enough. When you write in an encyclopedia article that someone's works have been labelled successful, you expect the label to come from some notable source, like a critic or a journalist or a publisher or something. A citation of that sort is what we would need. See the policy on reliable sources.

If all the point you want to make is that Goodkind is read worldwide with millions of sales... the article already says that. Do we need a quote to reiterate it, especially one that has no apparent source and uses weasel words like "has been called?"

However you intended the comment "when we get to a point when the changes are nothing so much as trolling looking to add contrib’s to get a leg up, it is a bit ridiculous," calling others' contributions "trolling" and suggesting that they contribute "to get a leg up" is uncivil and imputes bad faith, both of which are clearly disallowed by policy. Please don't do it again. Brendan Moody 04:40, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

My point being that the phrase "phenomenally successful” is used to death with out any supporting source, as we can see in any simple search on any search engine. My point is that you seem to be picking at nits here. It is something people say, write and refer to when speaking of or about something or someone that has better than normal success. That is what we are dealing with here even though the application has been said and has been in print for years.

I read hundreds of articles needing (according to you then) citations and have been left untouched. I guess I am forced to wonder what suddenly precipitated the "oh my gosh, we simply can't allow that to stand with out a citation what were we thinking" efforts in eliminating information. ~shrugs~ I see a great deal of “bad faith” and “uncivil” behavior on Misplaced Pages. This is why it has such a horrendous reputation for editing wars and quarreling admins. Mystar 16:54, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Minor Quibble

Just curious Werthead, but what's the big deal? I can see that sometimes people have a question and would like verification on issues. To me, it looks like you are trying to do nothing more than discredit Mr. Goodkind and Mystar. What do you care if he's sold 10 or 50 million books? You seem to be putting entirely too much energy into this for somebody who doesn't seem to like the books. Merrit

I'm not contesting the fact that Goodkind was an artist of marine and wildlife paintings before he became a novelist, but we should try to find another source for the information to replace the current citation. (The current citation was added by Mystar, who is also the webmaster of terrygoodkind.net). Again, I'm not disputing it, but if we could get another bio stating the same it would give the statement added credibility. - Runch 01:08, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Fantasy Author or Novelist?

In the section in the article entitled Fantasy Author or Novelist?, I'd like to add some counter arguments. Currently, this section is extremely one sided, only presenting Terry Goodkind's view that the series is not fantasy, when it most clearly is part of the fantasy genre.

Normally, I would just add content to the article as necessary, but I find that this particular article is often the source of heated debate, so I figured I would post my intentions first. It seems to me that often, despite the exceptional level of civility on Misplaced Pages as a whole, posts to this particular article cause great distress among certain individuals. - Runch 15:52, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

My feelings on the matter is that, as said above, this section is almost completely dictated by Terry Goodkind, and I find it quite questionable that he be the one to determine this section despite the fact that he is the author and therefore has a vested interest in the topic at hand. I think it's a conflict of interest, and a fairly obvious one. I also think that the conflict of interest extends throughout much of the article - Terry Goodkind, or Mystar, who seems to be a close friend of his, is doing a lot of the editing, introducing a strong POV into the article. By consistently inserting snippets of what Terry Goodkind thinks, we get an extension of Terry Goodkind's thoughts and feelings. In other words, a blog rather than an encyclopedic entry. The fact that Mystar, or whoever, keeps putting in bits from interviews by him means we are consistently getting quotes and opinon. In most referencing (at least for the social sciences where I have experience) quotes are used *extremely* sparingly, it is mostly 3rd person references. I think it's a good policy, especially when there is not the peer review to keep people honest (although arguably wikipedia is nothing but peer review and honesty can be seen as dictated through longevity over time). I think the excessive use of quotes unfairly biases the article in the direction of what the author wants, which is again, a conflict of interest. The ideas like 'not a fantasy writer' and 'deals with human thoughts and emotions' come directly from Terry Goodkind - until I put in the ideas that a) he uses magic, swords and fantastic creatures and b) EVERY novel in the world that has human or human-like protagonists deals with thoughts and emotions. If it's got characters, they are thinking and feeling. I have problems with these two issues, here are my reasons:

Someone coming in having never read any of his works may get the idea that somehow he is writing historical fiction or contemporary novels because of that 'not a fantasy' line. Then they pick up the books, find out that there is not just magic, but multiple types of magic, melee combat, mythical creatures and all the other tropes of fantasy.

Quoting wikipedia itself: Fantasy is a genre of art that uses magic and other supernatural forms as a primary element of plot, theme, or setting

and quoting www.yourdictionary.com a. Fiction characterized by highly fanciful or supernatural elements. b. An example of such fiction

and quoting another on-line dictionary, (dictionary.laborlawtalk.com) Perhaps the most common sub-genres of fantasy--or at least most commonly associated with the term "Fantasy"--are sword and sorcery and high fantasy, two closely related forms that typically describe tales featuring magic, brave knights, damsels in distress, and/or quests, set in a world or worlds quite different from modern-day Earth and usually inhabited by mythical creatures such as dragons and unicorns.

Therefore, T.G. saying he is not writing fantasy and having nothing to present the other side is baised, and presents a false image of the books. Unless he starts phrasing things in terms of mental abilities (i.e. psionics, telepathy, telekinesis) or machine-based 'magic' (both of which would move the SoT series into the realm of Science Fiction, which he may also presumably write is inaccurate) he writes fantasy, cover art being irrelevant to the discussion. He may think that he doesn't write fantasy, and can say so on his personal webpage and in interviews and whatnot, but by a widely accepted definition, it fits into fantasy. Irrespective of what he wants, that is the fact of the matter.

Regarding thoughts and feelings, again, EVERY book with a human-like protagonist deals with thoughts and feelings. His books are not special in this regard. Irrespective of what he is trying to do with his books (apparently preach objectivism - why not just produce a reader's guide to The Fountainhead or Atlas Shrugged if that's the most important thing about your work, or publish in academic journals dedicated to philosophy?) his books do not have special or unique license to say that HIS books deal with thoughts and feelings, while others do not. I'd either like it taken out, or have a comment inserted saying that it is unclear how this is different from any other. I put it in, it was not sarcastic, it is obvious. Though apparently I am alone in thinking this, so I won't put it back.

Also, overall I find that the entry spends a lot of time in near-shameless self-promotion (or perhaps other promotion, if he is not doing the editing himself). It's a bit better now, but I still think that the link to his agency webpage as a source is questionable and that the 6 times normal price thing is almost bragging. And again, stuff like

Goodkind says, "I believe in writing books that inspire and uplift people. The purpose of a good novel is to provide the reader with an example of values realized….People don't want to be told that they're miserable, wretched, destructive, evil creatures. The typical person isn't interested in reading that. They want to read books about other people they can look up to, people that inspire them, people who make them feel that life is worth living.

is almost bragging, and doesn't really add much to it. The fact that I did not like Wizard's First Rule may be biasing my judgement, but I think the suggestions and comments I've made above stand on their own merit. - MB

Fair points, but that would require a serious overhaul, not just a few barbs here and there like it was when I edited it. But I agree in principle that self-promotion is not wanted, and that TG does not have any right in determining what appears on this page and what does not, apart from correcting factual inaccuracies. Paul Willocx 16:22, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Did an attempt at writing a section that fitted the heading more. Comments appreciated. Paul Willocx 16:59, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me, But I think you need to rethink your reasoning here. Have you read any other authors page? I think not. You will not find any "argumentative" content on any GRRM's page, Erickson or any other fantasy author for that matter. Simply because you wish to place something of a dissenting voice questioning Goodkind or his views in is not what Misplaced Pages is about. This is a page "about" Terry Goodkind. It is not a page for people to plaster up arguments to his philosophy or his values. I read much of Martin's page and see almost exactly the same material and wording...so it's "OK" for GRRM, but not Goodkind? Sorry Misplaced Pages doesn't allow double standards. I read Erickson's page...same stuff.

So just because you have a problem with Goodkind or his bragging rights doesn't give you the right to omit proper information. That is considered vandalism. mystar68.188.220.8 17:13, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

You don't find any argumentative content on those other pages because those authors don't make a point of putting philosophical arguments in their books - they write for entertainment rather than to further a philosophy (natch, even TG is doing both, it's not just philosophical rabble-rousing. It is funny to see how he is imitating Ayn Rand though, she did the same thing in Atlas Shrugged). I've read Erikson's and Martin's (I'm also a fan of both, but I'm not posting propoganda on their pages). On SE page, "His style of writing tends towards complex plots with many point-of-view characters." and "Erikson has stated explicitly that he attempts to avoid the standard conventions of fantasy, and deliberately began the Malazan Book of the Fallen series in the midst of an ongoing story rather than beginning with a more conventional opening." could be considered unsourced, but it has also stood the test of time in Misplaced Pages - no users have edited or removed them, showing passive acknowledgement of its accuracy. Recently one comment which I agreed with "The books to date are of high quality in language and tone, being both able to stand alone as separate novels, as well as being intricately linked to other volumes." was removed, but I see the point the editor was trying to make. So I left it, even though I think it is pertinent. Your edits get removed all the time by contrast. As for GRRM, "This story, and many of Martin's others, have a strong sense of melancholy. His characters are often unhappy, or at least unsatisfied.", "The Brotherhood Without Banners is sometimes known among other fans as "George's Cult", because of their highly enthusiastic and evangelistic nature", and "However, the group is not a formal organization and all George R.R. Martin fans are considered 'spiritual' members even if they have not registered" could be considered, at a stretch, biased or unsourced. Since I haven't been visiting his page that often, I can't comment on their longevity. TG does not get bragging rights on wikipedia, this is not the venue to brag. He can (and does - heart of a 20 year old, HA!) on his personal website or in forums, or at conventions etc etc etc. The point being, GRRM and SE do not have philosophical soapboxing going on, or bragging. This page does. The constant editing to include positive information while removing anything that is remotely critical, looks like bragging to me. Same with everyone else who keeps changing the entry to be less biased. Although I must say it gradually does seem to be a better entry, measured in mustard seeds.

Ha! I read the tutorial 198.96.2.93 19:21, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

More Edits by Mystar

Mystar, aka IP 68.188.220.8, the recent edits made to the Terry Goodkind article were not vandalism. You can't revert them just because you didn't like the fact that the editor changed what you had initially written. In fact, reverting the edits in such a way IS considered vandalism.

Look Mystar, I still firmly believe that you want to be a productive member of the Misplaced Pages community, but it is obvious by your edit history that you just don't know how to go about doing so. I've looked at your contributions - and roughly 90% or more of them involve edits to Terry Goodkind and this talk page. If you're ever going to learn Misplaced Pages protocol and etiquette, I urge you to branch out. Look at other articles. Read help pages. Contribute and be involved in more than one topic. For starters, I'd suggest looking at some of these pages:

• Misplaced Pages:Simplified Ruleset - A simple rule book for new editors
• Misplaced Pages:Vandalism - Defines what is and what is not vandalism
• Help:Reverting - Lets you know when to use the revert function
• Misplaced Pages:Staying cool when the editing gets hot - Tips on how to discuss issues on talk pages
• Misplaced Pages:Ownership of articles - PLEASE read this help page. It is very pertinent to you.

In addition, you may want to look at some articles on authors that have reached featured article status. Although Terry Goodkind is unique, looking at some of these articles may help you understand the direction in which we want to move for the article on Goodkind. Examples: Isaac Asimov, Robert A. Heinlein, J. R. R. Tolkien, and Douglas Adams, to name a few.

I hope you actually do take the time to look into some (or all) of the pages I have pointed out to you. They may help you become less possessive of this particular page on Goodkind, and I'm sure expanding your horizons will help you become a better Wikipedian.

Sincerely, Runch 03:50, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Most of the edit in question that mystar reverted was indeed not vandalism, but it did add a few rather dubious things in the article which I have now attempted to correct. Firstly, there is the "essential sense of the word " thing - it is already inside a direct quote from TG, I see no reason for additional quote marks, nor do I understand what the "sic" is doing there. Secondly, the "though how this differs from any other novel is uncertain" or something to that extent; I don't think sarcastic commentary belongs in a Misplaced Pages article. If we are to discuss the credibility of Goodkind's statements, which I do not think is the intention of this article anyway, then surely we can find a more elegant way than just adding comments of that kind inbetween the quotations.

I would assume that with those edits made, mystar has no further reason to revert as the rest of that edit seemed good.

Paul Willocx 13:24, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I agree, thanks for your revisions. - Runch 14:23, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

sic was there because he said 'word' when it refers to two words - fantasy author.

198.96.2.93 19:21, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Call them "misguided" if you wish. That is really y too bad is this IS Goodkind's page and I have edited according to HIS wishes.

In response to Runch, I have looked about a great deal, and have followed what is seen of GRRM's page, Erickson's page, ASOFAI page as well. If you wish to remove such information on their pages then do so, but you will find that everything I have added is in like manor the same material on other pages.

Simply because someone doesn't feel something fits doesn't mean it isn't pertinent or germane. I have sourced the material, I have placed it accordingly as it fits to the knowledge and understanding of this page.

As I've said in the past, Misplaced Pages is an OPEN format and is also so stated that editing will be done. I have acted in good faith and have place appropriate and good solid information. I'm simply adding appropriate content. The fact that someone doesn’t wish for Goodkind to look good or be place in a positive light is not my problem. What is my concern is adding the proper spin and pertinent info! mystar68.188.220.8 17:00, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Your problem, as evidenced in your comment when reverting my last edit, is that you believe TG should have the right to decide what is on this page. Guess what, he doesn't. Haven't you read all the fuss about the US Congress members who tried to edit out offending information out of their Misplaced Pages pages? Didn't work, either. As a fantasy author, TG is considered notable for inclusion in Misplaced Pages, and as such, the Misplaced Pages contributors determine what is on his page and what is not, not himself.

This is not a page for Goodkind to promote himself or to preach to his audience, it's an article in what is supposed to be an encyclopedia, which is supposed to give as objective a view as possible on him. :Paul Willocx 17:04, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Guess what mystar, he's right. This is not TG page, it's a wikipedia page. You aren't adding information, you are adding opinion, TG's opinion. And TG's opinion of his own work isn't the best source when you are talking about its quality. He can talk about what he wants to accomplish, what he is trying to show (or rather someone else should do it for him), but saying how great his own work is, this is not the place. A couple further points:

1. "I have sourced the material, I have placed it accordingly as it fits to the knowledge and understanding of this page." - you have sourced the author's own webpage, or his agent, or an online chat. Sometimes this is appropriate, other times it is not. The times it is not, it is removed. If it's still there, it's 'cause it's in a good contextual location.

1. "As I've said in the past, Misplaced Pages is an OPEN format and is also so stated that editing will be done. " - open format doesn't mean no standards. Peer reviewers are the standards, and your peers are disagreeing with you. Outright. By removing things. I've posted crap in the past - if it was good and relevant (like the fantasy tropes) it stayed but was modified. If it wasn't, it was removed, as it should have been.

1. "I have acted in good faith and have place appropriate and good solid information. I'm simply adding appropriate content." - No, you're promoting something that you are too baised to be neutral about. It's not information, it's opinion, mostly TG's opinion, which is not appropriate for Wiki. It is inappropriate content.

1. "The fact that someone doesn’t wish for Goodkind to look good or be place in a positive light is not my problem. What is my concern is adding the proper spin and pertinent info!" - this page is NOT meant to place him in a good light, it is to place him in a neutral light. That means praise and criticism, if sourced, and otherwise just information. YOU SHOULD NOT BE ADDING SPIN AT ALL. Pertinent info is OK.

1. "Well...guess what! I am a fan and I do get to decide what I see as fit. As I haev so stated, I've added sourced into and pertinate info. It has every right to stand, as it would be exactly the materian found in an encyclopedia. That IS and always has been my point!" - I'm not a fan, and I'm trying to tone down the critical edits I've made in the past. My bad, now I'm learning (thanks Paul Willocx, is that a mis-spelling?). You have added dubious information and sources. An agent is not the best place to go to get certain types of information, and a personal webpage is almost certainly not. Especially when that webpage doesn't back up your statement (what he was best known for before SoT - painting. First of all, it is to his personal webpage. Second, it doesn't even refernce that he was well known for it)

As Willocx (must be a typo) says below, you are not the sole editor of the page. His points are excellent, and I am really only re-stating them in more detail in the 5 points above. BTW, having trouble with the editing, should be a numbered list of 1-5

198.96.2.93 19:21, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the Misplaced Pages consensus decides. And the Misplaced Pages consensus has decided a number of things, among others that Misplaced Pages isn't supposed to take any particular PoV (which would be why both the prevailing opinion that SoT is fantasy, and Mr. Goodkind's assertion that it is not are included), that it is not a soapbox, and so on. Just because you can source something doesn't mean it's notable or should be on the page. As for your Martin and Erikson comments, I've just gone and read both of their pages, and I saw nothing that looked biased. A few comments on "dark themes" and the like in Martin, and something about the complexity in Erikson, but both of those are objective facts - comparable to the fact that there is a strong Objectivist theme in SoT. And I didn't see either Martin or Erikson using their Misplaced Pages article to preach their views, nor do they try to determine what is on their page and what isn't. Paul Willocx 17:22, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Ahhh yes! "Just because you can source something doesn't mean it's notable or should be on the page". The ole "do what I say not what I do, double standard eh!

You allow the same content on GRRM's etc page. I see Paul or is it Worthead? I see that you are the ASOFAI fanatic and as such allow this same content there, but cannot stand for it of Goodkind's page. I hope you can explain yourself. Suddenly out of the blue you trash Goodkind’s page. SO just because you have edited a couple of GRRM's pages...that makes you the "consensus"? Sorry bub, that outs you and your two other buddies. You want to cause havoc, and they your get a couple of other ASOFAI buddies to back you up. That is in no way any kind of "consensus". All anyone has to do is to look at the history of you guys and see the truth. You see nothing that looks "biased" because you are a fanatic of the page and want the bias there. It suites you, your buddies and GRRM as well. The fact is it is loaded with bias and POV. You cannot have it both ways dude. You have not acted in good faith or in an unbiased manor

mystar68.188.220.8 04:05, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Mediation

The edit warring on this page really has gotten to the point where it needs to be dealt with. I'd like to draw everyone's attention to: Misplaced Pages:Resolving disputes. Steps one and two (discussion and trying to "wait out the war") have proved ineffective, so at this point I'm going to make a request for informal mediation. If that proves ineffective in stopping the problems, I'm going to make a request for a formal mediation session. Should both of those steps prove ineffective, I will request arbitration, although I hope it need not come to that.

Regardless of the way, I hope to finally put an end to this conflict. - Runch 17:49, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable.198.96.2.93 19:21, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

As an outside observer and someone who has not invested any real time editing the TG article it would seem you are already at the point of needing moderation. Mystar is admittedly acting as Terry Goodkind's mouth piece and has taken the position of doing what ever it takes to change this article into what he and TG want it to be, breaking several rules along the way despite repeated warnings from some very patient editors. This is not TG's article, it is everybody's artilce about TG. NeoFreak 01:52, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

I'll give the informal mediators a couple of days to see if they can help, but yes, I do forsee myself having to make a formal request for moderation or arbitration in the near future. - Runch 03:29, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, the problem is simple. Paul Willocx, NeoFreak is suddenly pissed off because I edited something and asked for some citations on A song of fire and ice. It has several NPOV sections, yet he seems to think that’s..."ok" simply because he likes GRRM and ASOFAI. So because he, worthead and a couple of ASOFAI/BWOB fans dislike Goodkind so intensely they must rape Goodkind's page. It’s really that simple. Read the history. They recoil at anything about Goodkind being shown in any positive light. They only wish adverse information to be placed. Neo, worthead et al, have all shown their true intent here.

I've not stated my opinion about Goodkind's works here (or to my memory) anywhere else and I'm sorry you've interpreted my attempts to inprove this artilce and conform it to wikipedia's standards as an attempt to "rape" the article. NeoFreak

So Misplaced Pages is "consensus", I only see two to three people being this so-called consensus. The page was fine...no problems since AL got himself booted... Worthead kept his two cents in the ring, but was also showing his true colors by trying to eliminate anything positive. I can source pages of worthead over at ASOFAI's home page talking about his campaign against Goodkind on Misplaced Pages.

If worthead has shown any dislike of Goodkind and you feel that he is not editing with good intention than by all means, present this should it go to mediation. NeoFreak

They suddenly! Up pops out of the blue, in pops someone most likely worthead under a new IP/name who had never before touched anything Goodkind, then he is suddenly the "consensus" and making major changes to the page. And lo, but who should come to his rescue another ASOFAI fanatic, Paul Willocx (or should I say worthead), Neo and Runch. Telling indeed! I hardly thing these people are "unbiased"... their edit sheet reads like a book. "We hate anything Goodkind".

Again I've not stated my opinion of Goodkind and my intention here is to improve this article, not wage a campaign against Mr. Goodkind or his good name. Further a review of talk pages and IP addresses will reaveal that, unless I'm engaged in an elaborate anti-Goodkind conspiracy and am in the habit of talking to myself, I am in fact, not werthead or any other person on this site but NeoFreak. I have no sockpuppets and am here on no one's volition but my own. NeoFreak

I would disagree. Anytime you edit anything Goodkind and it is reverted, one of your sockpuppets pops up to reinforce it and call it "consensus" mystar68.188.220.8 05:30, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

It is unfortunate that you would call me a liar without any evidence or knowledge of me or my character but all I can do is tell you I have no agenda but to improve this artilce and conform it to wikipedia standards and policies. NeoFreak

Secondly, I am not a "mouth piece" for or of Goodkind. Yes, I read him much of what is on here and we talk about it. SO WHAT? and BOOM! Suddenly because I say Goodkind liked something, then NEO is incensed and declares it MUST be stopped! How dare we allow anything Goodkind likes! How dare he read and like his page! We cannot allow ANYTHING that Goodkind approves of to stay on his page!

As you have discused werthead's comments outside of this site I think it only fair to now point out that you have declared on other sites that your are the "representative" of Mr. Goodkind and act in his intrests as he has no internet connection himself. In addition you are a personal friend and are an active organizer of fanclubs and events for Mr Goodkind. Addionaly I would ask that you do not put words into my mouth. My attention to this site was in fact attracted by your edits of the George RR Martin page after a review of your contribution history. After you raised issues with the wording of the artilce you might be intrested to know that I, and other editors, agreed with your "point" and changes were made. NeoFreak

And here you have just validated my point. You are only acting (along with your sockpuppets in a retaliatory strike for editing some NPOV on GRRM's page. I rest my case. mystar68.188.220.8 05:30, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I must admit I do not follow your train of logic here. I wanted to understand you and where you weere coming from a little better and I reviewed your contribution history, which lead me here. I'm sorry that you interpret this as evidenefc of "retaliation" or an "anti-Goodkind conspiracy". I can only give you my assurance otherwise. NeoFreak

I have never made any attempt not cover the fact that I am Terry's friend or discuss on-line things with him. That however in no way makes me his "mouth piece" I might point out that using such a has specific meaning and negative tones. You have the audacity to admonish me for a supposed tone or words, I would also respond in kind then. mystar68.188.220.8 05:30, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Would "direct representitive" be more palatable? NeoFreak

Puhlease! Get a life eh! I do hope you or anyone is not so mentally impaired that they think that GRRM, Erickson, Bakker et al, do not visit and discuss their pages with they friends! I do hope you are not dumb enough that you don't think they do not also edit. Fact is this. Goodkind GRRM or anyone has as much right to edit their own page and anyone else. I see no "rule" stating that because a page has their name on it they are banned from editing, they would be a violation of the rules and the First Amendment.

First off I would just like to point out that I have remained very civil, even cordial, with you and would appreciate if you could reciprocate this behavior. We are both adults and adults most often are capable of disscussion and debate without having to resort to name calling as it is unconstructinve, immature and agaist wikipedia policy. Secondly, George RR Martin has made the comment many times that he avoids all online forums about him and his work outside of his own ofical site as it interfears with his creative process. NeoFreak

I for one prefer to think of myself as an honest and moral man, I saw/see nothing civil in any of your commentary toward me, quite the contrary. I see you assuming "superiority" in tone from me. That would be entirely a failing on your part, as I have not taken any such tone. I suggest you stop attempting to read me as you feel you would be replying. A common mistake with this media, but I assure you I am nothing but concerned for proper content and eliminating the use of harmful editing and sockpuppets to back up such vandalism. I also disagree about your GRRM statement. He can say anything he wishes. We have no proof of its validity. Anyone can say anything they wish. mystar68.188.220.8 05:30, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Well you have been calling other editors liars and idiots and accusing them of having dishonest intentions without any proof. Your tone has been hostile and condesending but if that was not your intention then we can get past that. NeoFreak

I will edit when I see a need. I have every right to add content if I deem it worthy. I see someone come along and mass edit something that has been up for a long time and I revert it, and then "I'm" labels the vandal? I think not. I welcome a neutral mediation...IF one can be found with out ties to these vandals.

I very much encourage you to be bold in your editing but if other editors have a reason to make changes and/or reversions please accept that they too have a say and your issues are best worked out in civil discourse and a review of policy, not by attacks, accusations and name calling. NeoFreak

Simply put, your/their edits may not be in the best interest of the information as they/you have ulterior motives. I do think seeing as I have an infinite amount of correct and accurate information, I'm better suited to judge what it correct information or not. Simply because you do not like the author (have you even read his works of all of them), and you feel empowered to edit away, in no way makes your edit correct. So my replacing proper and accurate information would then be the proper and correct action mystar68.188.220.8 05:30, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Original Reasearch is not allowed on wikipedia but your personal relationship with Mr. Goodkind could be very helpful in pointing editrs toward resources they can cite in this article. Your unsourced opinion is irrelevant and Mr. Goodkind through you as well. Again only sourced information is allowed on Misplaced Pages. Your opinion is no more valid than anybody mine or any other editor. Period. NeoFreak

I may not be up on Misplaced Pages or all of its inner workings codes etc. I do not intend to spend my valuable time sorting it out to please the likes of fanatics who are only looking to do harm to someone's page they do not like. I see some major hypocrisy going on here, not to mention a HUGE double standard.

Sir, if you find that you do not have the time to devote to learing the rules of this encylopedia then you might find your time better spent elsewhere. NeoFreak

And let people like you disparage others pages. I think not. I will do my best, that is all I can do. If it isn't good enough for you, I'm sorry. Its good enough for me and that is all that counts.

mystar68.188.220.8 05:30, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Again please do not attack my character. If you have any complaints about my edits then take them to an admin. Aslo what is "good enough for you" is not neccisarily good enough for Misplaced Pages. NeoFreak

I will happily admit to early editing on TG's page because I did not like what was there. It was biased in a majorly negative way and had several negative POV content. As well as some major mis-information. I was not aware of just how things work...or the rational behind it. so sue me! I learned of what was happening to TG's Wiki page on westros message board where they were talking about thin very thing, vandalizing Goodkind's Wiki page. And we have seen a lot of it! One person was even banned when I presented proof to GRRM himself. I am not so easily fooled by supposed "I'm a neutral interested party, so I'm going to edit TG's page because it has positive content".

I appluad your corrective action of any vandal. Every page should conform to wikipedia rules and have a NPOV. NeoFreak

What I do ask for is fairness and honesty. But I will not be holding my breath as I wish to continue to live....

I’ve said time and time again, as “I” read the reason for Wiki is to be unbiased and “encyclopedic” in nature…. The is not a play ground for trolls to edit anything of a positive or impressive nature off of a page. When these people edit and it is reverted, they just call on their edit buddies to jump in the fray and back them up. I’m a bit more honest than that. Fact is you very rarely find many Goodkind fan’s on here, because they have better things to do with their lives…like LIVE them” than try to bash someone else. Goodkind’s fans are of a caliber that refuses to waste their time with such petty trolls Who only want to make TG look bad. Fact is they know better and are not bothered by it. They feel that these people show their true nature and lack of character by their actions. Really Goodkind fans and not your “fantasy” fanatic fans… That’s because Goodkind’s Novels appeal to a more mature mindset. One grips the mind of like-minded people with Honor and Morals. People who value ethics and hold they ground, while nobly avoiding such petty battles as these fanatics wage.

Again, please refrain from name calling and posts that relflect assumed superiority as it is unconstructive and doesn't help anyone. NeoFreak

MY only reason for editing is to place accurate and fair information. Something worthead, Paul Willocx (suddenly out of the wild blue), neo that is being fought against, and they are being allowed to win

mystar68.188.220.8 03:52, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Again please refrain from these kind of attacks unless you are ready to take your issues to an admin. NeoFreak

I'm very happy that you desire to participate and help make this a better article. Your close relationship with Mr. Goodkind puts this article's potential in a realm far beyond most as you could prove to be an enourmous resource should you so choose to be one. I look forward to being able to edit with you in the future. NeoFreak 04:39, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I would agree, my close relationship is an asset to this page. But unless you've read all of Goodkind's works, all of his interviews, all of his Audio clips and all of his on camera appearances, I simply do not see you as being effective in any kind of editing. A person has to know the material they are working with. You have shown no idea of what Goodkind or his works is about. Sorry, but that is just my take on it.

mystar68.188.220.8 05:30, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I would disagree that an editor that has not read or covered every piece of Terry Goodkind material is not capable or qualified to contribute to this artilce. I'm sorry to hear that you feel that way as it is unconstructive and contrary to what wikipedia is all about. Also please note that I have made minor edits to your posts here for ease of review and have not chaged the substance of any of your posts.

It is my belief at this point that there is no other option than to ask for an offical mediation. Would you be willing to engage in an offical mediation MyStar? NeoFreak 05:58, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

As I suspected, you've never read any Goodkind, so you have no knowledge of what his books espouse, and there fore you have no idea what materian is pertinate or not. Editing is one thing, but Wilcox and you have simply tried to remove content without knowing if it is pertinate or not. And you pop on right off the bat and remove logical content simply to amuse yourself...because you somehow think "you" are the "consensus".

As I've said, I'm an honest man, I see your contriving even if you refuse to admidt it. mystar68.188.220.8 12:31, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

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