Talk:Margaret Sanger: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 15:48, 26 July 2016 editJason from nyc (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users4,874 edits →Originally Sanger based the advocacy of birth control on feminist ideals: it's been awhile← Previous edit		Revision as of 17:35, 26 July 2016 edit undoMarkBernstein (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users4,224 edits →Originally Sanger based the advocacy of birth control on feminist ideals Next edit →
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	:::What was her reasoning, which feminist ideals? Did the reasoning parallel her support for eugenics?] (]) 15:04, 26 July 2016 (UTC)		:::What was her reasoning, which feminist ideals? Did the reasoning parallel her support for eugenics?] (]) 15:04, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
	::::It's been awhile since I did my research. As I understand it, her original emphasis was solely on empowering woman. Birth control gives woman the power to postpone child-birth and have a full sexual life. She always maintained those principles going forward, however, after her exile in England she appended a broader purpose to her advocacy. It was also good for society. Or more exactly, good for the human race. Thus, woman, for their own well-being will also bring about a betterment for society and the human race. Limiting births will enable woman to raise healthier children, and that's good for them and society. The title of her book "Pivot of Civilization" refers to the pivotal role of woman. ] (]) 15:48, 26 July 2016 (UTC)		::::It's been awhile since I did my research. As I understand it, her original emphasis was solely on empowering woman. Birth control gives woman the power to postpone child-birth and have a full sexual life. She always maintained those principles going forward, however, after her exile in England she appended a broader purpose to her advocacy. It was also good for society. Or more exactly, good for the human race. Thus, woman, for their own well-being will also bring about a betterment for society and the human race. Limiting births will enable woman to raise healthier children, and that's good for them and society. The title of her book "Pivot of Civilization" refers to the pivotal role of woman. ] (]) 15:48, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

			::See also Jill Lepore, ''The Secret History of Wonder Woman'', Vintage, 2015, which contains an extensive discussion of Sanger’s feminism and its impact, and is unambiguous that Sanger’s intent and philosophy were deeply infused with and inseparable from feminism. ] (]) 17:35, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

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Her sexual behavior and philosophy

As stated here, she favored the "liberation" of women's sex lives. But that term is meaningless. A book review last week on NPR of a book on "the Pill" claimed she was in favor of extra-martial sex, and had many sexual partners. This article HIDES the fact in the statement that she "became involved with local intellectuals, left-wing artists, socialists and social activists...". If in fact "became involved with" means "had sex with", the euphemism is really inappropriate and misleading here. She also encouraged the same behavior in her husband, and both are apparently well established facts. This is noteworthy, both for her times and in our current cultural context.72.172.10.197 (talk) 14:49, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

The sex lives of prominent people in the early 20th century are often very hard to recover because our evidence for them is very thin. To say that Sanger’s philosophy is "meaningless", as you do above, may make contemporary right-wing extremists feel better but it has no chance to become part of the encyclopedia and is a borderline policy violation. The article hides nothing; by when Sanger became involved with intellectuals, artists, and social activists she doubtless had tea or coffee with them, met them for drinks, had them over for dinner, joined them at the theater or the ballpark. She might have gone to bed with some of them, or she might not; we only know what people wrote, and even then it can be difficult to achieve certainty. If you're interested in a history of sexuality in among the Greenwich Village elite of the early 20th century, you could perhaps write a page on the subject. For Sanger alone, however, you're going to have a hard time finding sources, and even then according them due weight will reduce their presence here to a sliver. MarkBernstein (talk) 15:37, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Du Bois

In the Race section, a pair of IPs have been making efforts to disparage WEB Du Bois, reducing him from co-founder of the NAACP (which he was) to merely it's magazine editor (which he was also). Since these IP editors were unsatisfied with the readily-available references available on D Bois's Misplaced Pages page, I have added refs from the national monument, from Martin Luther King’s eulogy, and from the NAACP. MarkBernstein (talk) 22:26, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

Your most recent edit introduced more detail about Du Bois than is appropriate for an article about Sanger. I can't speak for other editors but my revert was based on the absence of citation. A citation to support the "co-founder" claim is all that's needed. I would not contest such an edit. 107.150.94.4 (talk) 23:43, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

You contested the co-founder claim; I provided a link to a Misplaced Pages page that provided abundant evidence -- including that specific claim in the lede. I provided abundant documentation, and clarified the importance of Du Bois. Whether the additions are an appropriate level of detail is a discussion we can have at some future time, once the point is established. Du Bois’ prominent, indeed indispensable, role in the history of the era is very well attested. MarkBernstein (talk) 02:01, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

Deleting Additional Sources

107.150.94.4 is deleting additional sources of info. Sources that they specifically requested. This logic is extremely dubious, not to mention unhelpful and destructive to the article itself. --MurderByDeadcopy 19:20, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

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Originally Sanger based the advocacy of birth control on feminist ideals

What evidence is there for this? Did Sanger really think feminist ideals supported eugenics? Citation is needed.Poodleboy (talk) 08:40, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

You could ask User:Jason_from_nyc who added that text in this edit on 11 August 2015. MFNickster (talk) 21:44, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

It's alright to remove the intro sentence as User:The Banner has done in this edit . However, the reference for that sentence was in the Kevles' book, page 90: "Before the war, Sanger had linked birth control with feminism." I thought I'd contextualize the evolution of Sanger thought but that might be better done in the main body of the article. Jason from nyc (talk) 14:58, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

What was her reasoning, which feminist ideals? Did the reasoning parallel her support for eugenics?Poodleboy (talk) 15:04, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

It's been awhile since I did my research. As I understand it, her original emphasis was solely on empowering woman. Birth control gives woman the power to postpone child-birth and have a full sexual life. She always maintained those principles going forward, however, after her exile in England she appended a broader purpose to her advocacy. It was also good for society. Or more exactly, good for the human race. Thus, woman, for their own well-being will also bring about a betterment for society and the human race. Limiting births will enable woman to raise healthier children, and that's good for them and society. The title of her book "Pivot of Civilization" refers to the pivotal role of woman. Jason from nyc (talk) 15:48, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

See also Jill Lepore, The Secret History of Wonder Woman, Vintage, 2015, which contains an extensive discussion of Sanger’s feminism and its impact, and is unambiguous that Sanger’s intent and philosophy were deeply infused with and inseparable from feminism. MarkBernstein (talk) 17:35, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

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