Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 03:53, 2 September 2006

Volunteers

I'm not an admin, but I volunteer to be actively involved with this group. I feel very strongly that BLP violations are a huge threat to Misplaced Pages's credibility. This is on my watchlist. Crockspot 16:20, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I'll also at least watchlist this. While I am very concerned that we not slip into the realm of the libelous, I am also concerned with some censorship-related issues. I'll make my comments on those below. - Jmabel | Talk 18:38, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Diversity in thought and opinion on this subject is welcome and refreshing and quite the spirit of wikipedia. Chilling Effect concerns are quite real, disturbing and relevant. I tried to make sure to specifically invite people from all backgrounds, if it needs more balance, feel free to invite others using the invite template below. I'll try and shape/frame this as loose as possible. Electrawn 20:26, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

NPOV?

This group should not be involved with "flushing out NPOV". It should be just focused on applying BLP. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 16:31, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Agree wholeheartedly. NPOV in general is a charge to every editor, and isn't necessarily a liability threat to the overall project. Crockspot 16:34, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

From arguments at Talk:Kyra_Phillips, my view is that even after potential defamation is reduced by fixing sources and statements to WP:V, defamation may still not be removed by virtue of a strawman argument/section (Misplaced Pages:NPOV_tutorial#Information_suppression, Misplaced Pages:Information_suppression). "Thus, verifiability, proper citation and neutral phrasing are necessary but not sufficient to ensure NPOV." I will expand that to say: Verifiability, proper citation and neutral phrasing are not sufficent to ensure both NPOV and against defamation. WP:NPOV#Undue_weight "To give undue weight to a significant-minority view, or to include a tiny-minority view, might be misleading as to the shape of the dispute." I would further shape that for BLP articles to say: To give undue weight to a significant-minority view or to include a small-minority view, might be misleading to the shape of a dispute. The word I changed, and thereby raised the bar...was from tiny to small. Discuss. Electrawn

Perhaps the secondary focus of this group should be specifically to counter WP:NPOV#Undue_weight? I think that fits better than just about NPOV. Electrawn 17:29, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Invitations

I have been inviting a bunch of knowledgeable people on the subject to participate via talk pages. To help spread the word and reach critical mass, here is my invitation template. Adjust as needed. Electrawn 17:35, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

==Invite to ]== Biographies of Living Persons ] requires a higher wikipedia standard since the ] in December 2005. Articles like these involve ] and ] It has been 6 months, and wikipedia still has hundreds of potentially libelious articles. Many editors and even administrators are generally unaware of potential defamation either direct or via ]. To help protect wikipedia, I feel a large working group of historians, lawyers, journalists, administrators and everyday editors is needed to rapidly enforce policies. I would like to invite you to join and particpate in a new working group, tenatively named ], a group devoted to ], ] and ] and active enforcement. From your experience and/or writings on talk pages, I look forward to seeing you there. ~~~~

Beware of the chilling effect

While I strongly agree that Misplaced Pages needs to be very careful not to libel people, I am conversely concerned that WP:BLP can become a tool to censor material that is not at all libelous, nor even problematic. So far, I believe I've seen at least three ways that happens. I'll leave out some names of the people I'm referring to so as not to get into a gray zone here.

1. Mis-characterization of material as detrimental or even libelous. For example, people have invoked this to remove the characterization of a particular performer having been a "communist", even though he was an actual CPUSA member and in (recent) interviews is clearly more proud of it than not. There may be issues about how much discussion of a particular person's politics belongs in an article, but if well cited for, then WP:BLP should be beside the point.
2. Excessive, if even-handed application of WP:BLP. For example, it should not require a great deal of citation to say that someone who wrote a book about her own experiences as a prostitute once worked as a prostitute, or that a certain U.S. president has been known to have some difficulties with grammar and with finding the mot juste.
3. Related to that last: setting the bar for citation impossibly high. For example, if an accusation has been leveled against someone on 60 Minutes, or in Mother Jones, or in Private Eye, we should be able to report that. (If there was a response, we should report that, too. And if there was a correction by the original source, then either we should drop the matter entirely or should report if for the tempest in a teapot that it was.)
4. Selective application of WP:BLP: for example, there are Wikipedians who seem to be determined, on the one hand, to invoke WP:BLP to remove statements about politicians of whom they approve, while, on the other hand, they make very similar statements themselves about politicians of whom they disapprove. So, clearly, they did not see the removal of the material as an honest matter of principle, let alone a legal issue: they were just invoking this to remove material not to their personal taste.
5. Closely related to this last: the refusal to accept sources unless we are sure they have no axe to grind. The perception of who has an axe to grind is inevitably subjective. In particular, rejecting sources because they are politically opposed to the person in question is absurd. We don't reject the New York Times's coverage of Al-Qaeda on this basis. The issue should be whether someone has a reputation for intellectual honesty, not whether they are middle-of-the-road. The anarchist Kropotkin wrote for Encyclopedia Britannica: that should enhance Kropotkin's reputation for honest scholarship, not diminish Britannica's. Both The Nation and The National Review—respectively, the farthest left and farthest right major journals of opinion in the United States—have good reputations for getting the facts straight. They should both be every bit as citable on factual matters as Time or Newsweek. NPOV does not mean "centrist point of view".

I am particularly concerned with the conflation of libel and NPOV. The former is a legal issue, and there should be a bright red line not to be crossed. The latter is often a very subtle question: the inclusion or exclusion of an adjective, for example. No self-selected group are particularly likely to handle this better than the participants in a particular article. -- Jmabel | Talk 18:38, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Well put, I think a version of your comments should be added to WP:BLP. Gamaliel 18:46, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

To address point 3, reporting an allegation as an allegation is not a problem, as far as I can see. It is when a Misplaced Pages article draws the conclusion that the allegation is true is when it violates WP:BLP, via WP:OR. As to point 4, I am a conservative, and I freely admit that I am more likely to actively seek out BLP violations against conservatives, as I am sure is conversely the case with editors who lean toward the left. However, if a BLP violation is brought to my attention against anyone, regardless of their various orientations, I will act on it if I feel confident that it is indeed a violation, as I did just recently on Steven Greenberg (rabbi). I would hope that other editors would have the same objectivity and desire to bolster the credibility of the project. Conservatives in general see Misplaced Pages as a joke without credibility, in large part because of rampant violations of this type. They will not even participate here, because they feel that the deck is stacked against them. I would like to change that perception, and make Misplaced Pages a resource that anyone would feel good about using. Crockspot 19:09, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

In regarding conflicts with libel and NPOV, I take the view that failure to maintain NPOV may indirectly be defamation. I also understand that a tiny minority agree with me. This is probably an issue better reserved for the legal system and wikimedia foundation lawyers. Still the line needs to be discussed, defined and solidified. As always, its probably somewhere in the middle. Electrawn 20:58, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Also want to add, perhaps a bit of a chilling effect is not a bad thing. I am not the only editor who feels that violations of this nature have gotten a little out of hand. Crockspot 19:35, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

That is why we may need to thread with caution and apply good judgement. Rules and regulations are not a substitute for common sense and good judgement. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 20:05, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Some degree of chilling effect is a desirable thing in my eyes. We need to start turning the focus of Misplaced Pages towards having more effort on quality in the balance between quality and expansion. In the long run this will probably mean a more vigorous focus on WP:RS for everything, and we might as well start that with the most legally risky material. Remember that WP:V starts by saying "The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth." . If poorly sourced material stays out until it is well sourced, we are better off. Remember that there is no deadline. GRBerry 21:04, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

The absolute defense of Libel is truth. Libel#Defences. Is WP:LIBEL conflicting with WP:V? Is the defense Mistake (criminal law) enough? Fair_comment? Maybe... I appear to be wikilawyering, tea time. Electrawn 21:43, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

The points raised against a possible chilling effect are quite valid concerns.

1. Detremental or Mischaracterization: Labelling someone as Communist is negative amd could have undue harm on personal reputation and career. Rather than using phrasing saying XYZ was a communist, it should be written that XYZ was a member of CPUSA. A persons political views may change over their lifetime. Maybe Weasel wording comes into play? Alleged probably doesn't fit this case. WP:NPOV#undue_weight probably in play too.
2. Excessive, if even-handed application of WP:BLP: Individual judgement calls. We want high standard citations, direct quotes from literary sources the subject qrote is sort of a gold star. As for a certain president who flubs words: Some sort of historical context reference is needed. Persons 50 years from now will unlikely understand todays obvious mot juste.
3. Citation bar impossibly high. Having thought about it, using almost any source as a primary source for a fact is ok. Secondary Sources, the ones summarizing and being critical and drawing conclusions, should be held very, very high. Such sources I feel may even need truth verification, a possible narrowing of WP:V. There is a lot of improper secondary source citation on wikipedia, its just plain ugly.
4. Selective Application: "Don't be a dick" "Don't appear to be a dick". Sure, BLP can be used as powerful sword, powerful exceptions come into play like 3RR. Civility, Good Faith, Writing for the enemy, etc. Hopefully we can code this into a standard process so accusations of selective application are moot.
5. Axe to Grind Sources: I think I have narrowed this down to be specific. Op-Ed pieces as secondary sources should not be used or used very sparingly. For an OpEd by an individual, that individual should probably write within their field of view frequently. A tech blogger at say XYZ tribune going off on a political rant about a politician is outside the normal field of view for that person. Comments without bylines should be considered views of the publication, and preffered over individual ones. Still, identifying proper field of view is tricky. Is Financial Times an established british paper covering business, properly qualified to give criticism about a US journalist? Tricky.

Mostly agree, some points raised are moot, some written from Devil's Advocate. Electrawn 21:33, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

How will this work?

How are we supposed to work together on matters where often the correct solution is to delete the material even from talk pages: how do we discuss difficult cases and reach consensus? Is there a plan for how to address that? - Jmabel | Talk 18:38, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I assume it would work like any other Misplaced Pages policy. First we hash out exactly what the policy is going to be, then we earnestly try to enforce it, with the help of Admins. I think it's very important that Misplaced Pages have a policy, even if it's hard to enforce, because it will help protect the Foundation. Morton devonshire 18:51, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Deletion from a page, or a talk page, leaves a diff the same way that adding material does, which can be linked to like this using the URL produced doing a compare on the history page. (The example is the diff in which Jmabel posed the question heading this section.) The deletion from history only rarely occurs (because it takes an admin and isn't at all trivial for them) so a significant fraction of such material will last, especially in currently active discussions. Although I believe that admins also have a roll-back tool which wouldn't leave a diff, I really don't know how that works. GRBerry 19:01, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

See {{blprefactor}} ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 20:04, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Electrawn's Law (Adage ala Godwins Law)

To minimize the impact, I propose a Scientific management process, borrowing from Divide and rule, Inverted Pyramid, Historical method and other resources. Beyond that, how far do we go in the process - or simply put...where do we stop? Electrawn 20:39, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Too complicated

I object strongly to many of the statements collected in the proposed process. This unit should absolutely not be concerned with interpreting Misplaced Pages policies. It should be concerned with edits that are obviously malicious only.

It is also too complicated and cumbersome as stated. I am deleting most if not all the proposed text. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 23:22, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Let's keep it really simple, shall we? Otherwise it will not work. This "unit" cannot bypass neither policy, nor vigorous debate in talk pages between concerned editors. It also cannot interpret policy in specific or narrow ways. If you want this proposed group to gain the support of the community, we have to keep this extremely simple and as a group of people assisting editors rather than asserting policy. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 23:31, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok, too much too soon. Here is the nutshell of BLP.

This page in a nutshell: Articles about living persons must adhere strictly to NPOV and verifiability policies. Be very firm about high-quality references, particularly about details of personal lives. Unsourced or poorly sourced negative material about living persons should be removed immediately from both the article and the talk page. Responsibility for justifying controversial claims rests firmly on the shoulders of the person making the claim.

Draft a mission statement. Electrawn 00:48, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

It does not need one. Just needs to be said that this is a group of people interested in assisting editors in implementing and enforcing the policy of WP:BLP. That's it. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 03:25, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I think the ulimate disposition of Misplaced Pages:Counter-Vandalism Unit to be instructive here; the community (quite properly) will disfavor anything that seeks to create a group other than of the narrow form of which Jossi writes. Insofar as those editors who would partake of the LPU act only qua editors (cf. qua profoundly enlightened and potent members of a cadre), possessing, perhaps, some special insight in view of their frequent dealing with potentially libellous situations and their conversance with, inter al., BLP, the unit ought to serve only as a central gathering place from which users particularly interested in BLP issues might learn whether there are pages on the noticeboard at which more opinions are needed; I certainly wouldn’t accede to the creation of anything grander, and I imagine that no consensus for such creation. I mean in no way to suggest that issues the unit would seek to address are insignificant, but I suppose I see no present need for a unit such as this (which presumes, I suppose, that those editors who would encounter BLP issues at articles at which they participate or at articles to which they've come through the noticeboard are in need of guidance from other editors, which presumption seems not only less-than-civil but also contrary to the nature of the project); BLP issues are well resolved at article talk pages or, where clear resolutions cannot be reached, at AN/I, AN, the new LIVING noticeboard, or the mailing lists, and so I think WP:CREEP entails. Joe 03:53, 2 September 2006 (UTC)