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User:Malik Shabazz/Tabs

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All-white jury

Malik, I have waited for IronDome's input, but it looks like he may have lost interest in this issue. I would like to resume my edits to this article, but I don't want to go appear to be breaking my pledge to wait for third party input. Your suggestions? Gulbenk (talk) 14:21, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

Hi Gulbenk. If Irondome is too busy or has lost interest, we can ask for a third opinion at WP:3O. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 17:23, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

No, i'm here gents. Just been a bit diverted with various r/l & WP subjects of late. Ready to contribute. Simon Irondome (talk) 17:50, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

Hi Gulbenk, lets start from the top. A brief over-view of your ideas for improvement, and I know we covered aspects of this but maybe a few days out may have further clarified some angles. Major problems in order of priority and proposed edits would be really useful. Lets see if Malik can come back with some viewpoints then and I will add my 2p, and hopefully we can all come out of this with new ideas and an improved article if that is possible, as i'm sure it is. I think we should remember the most important participant who can't comment, the reader. Lets do right by them. Simon Irondome (talk) 22:00, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

Irondome thanks again for your willingness to take this on. Give me a day or two to put something together. Gulbenk (talk) 23:25, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Suggestions for article improvement. First, the present article is actually two separate articles cobbled together. One is the history of racial discrimination in juror selection in the United States. That article is supported by a significant number of references to legislative action and court decisions. One can construct that stand-alone article in a straight forward linear timeline. The second article purports to demonstrate the racial bias in the deliberations of all-white juries. It references the fact that there is a perception of bias, and then through inference attempts to validate that perception by listing select racially charged (race salience) cases. The references attached to those cases only confirm that the cases are real, not that racial bias by an all-white jury was the specific reason for the verdict. In fact, there is research which supports the argument that all-white juries are less likely to consider race when involved in "race salience" cases. That can be found here: . If there is a article to be made of the subject, it should be separate from the article on racial discrimination in juror selection. An article about bias in all-white and all-black juries would be a great deal more complex than the simple article on discrimination in juror selection. Many of the findings, supported by studies conducted by a number of researchers involved in this field, are counter-intuitive... and in conflict with the unsupported assertions (and inferences) made in the current article. Gulbenk (talk) 00:01, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

Reform and Conservative Judaism

It's a good question whether Conservatism really "split off" from Reform or whether the right-wingers were (more-or-less) thrown out of Reform Judaism, at least in an institutional sense. But it's unquestionably true that Conservatism started with a kernel of leadership of traditionalists with roots in the Reform movement. See, for example, Solomon Schechter. So there is some accuracy in the idea that Conservatism split off from Reform. If there's a better way to say so I'm all ears. StevenJ81 (talk) 13:24, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

Hi StevenJ81. The IP editor, whose edits I've reverted in the past (various IP numbers), always tries to conflate Conservative Judaism and Reform Judaism, for example by renaming Conservative Judaism "Conservative Reform Judaism". (They also describe all their edits as minor edits, even though they're not, and never add sources.) Take a look at their contributions from today. Sorry if I'm a little touchy on the subject. The relationship between Conservative and Reform Judaism is more complicated than simply saying that Conservative is a split from Reform. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 13:34, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

I hear you, friend. (smile) StevenJ81 (talk) 15:04, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

Conservative had more to do with Orthodox than Reform in the early days. The line between OJ and CJ were not clear at all and JTS wasn't off limits to OJ until the 50's or so. The Conservative movement didn't break off from the Reform movement but you might be able to say that it started because of the Reform movement. Sir Joseph 15:27, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

It's more complicated than that, Sir Joseph. If I had to summarize it in a sentence or two, I'd say:

• Theologically and halachically, the kernel was traditionalist (and often traditionally trained) people with a background in the institutional Reform world, with support from the miniscule Orthodox community that existed in the US at the time.
• Moneywise, there was Reform German-Jewish money looking for places to park the new Jewish immigrants from Eastern Europe other than in Orthodox communities like they knew in Europe.

That dichotomy, in one form or another, has existed in Conservatism ever since. OJ and CJ were closer theologically and halachically somewhat later—say, from the 1920s or 1930s through about the early 1960s, give or take. — Preceding unsigned comment added by StevenJ81 (talk • contribs) 15:58, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

There's much merit in what both of you are saying. Like Orthodox Judaism, and unlike Reform, Conservative Judaism maintains that halakha is binding. Its early leaders in the United States were associated with the Reform movement but were repulsed by actions such as the Trefa Banquet. I just think the IP editor is trying to denigrate Conservative Judaism, the way they rename it "Conservative Reform Judaism", and I think they oversimplified the relationship between the two movements by describing Conservative as a split off from Reform. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 16:51, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

You've been notified

https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Malik_Shabazz KamelTebaast 04:29, 10 August 2016 (UTC)