Talk:The Holocaust: Difference between revisions

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			== 3 million Polish Jews ==

			This is incorrect. These so-called Polish Jews were in fact part of the USSR as of 17 September 1939. The part of Poland occupied by Germany contained 2 million Jews while the western Ukraine and western Byelorussia liberated by USSR contained 1 million. Out of 5.2 million Jews in USSR, 2.2 million died. Needless to say, the deaths of 2.2 million Soviet Jews is not any different from the deaths of tens of millions of Soviet Russians. Disproportionate emphasis upon Jews is insolent to those who receive considerably less attention like the 12 million killed Chinese. The "Holocaust" is purely a Zionist Jewish interpretation of World War II Jewry and is a fundamental violation of NPOV policy. The term "Holocaust" cannot be located in the Big Soviet Encyclopedia which reveals the inherently Jewish POV nature of the term "Holocaust". The Chinese don't talk about the "Holocaust" but instead focus on the horrors endured by the Japanese occupation.

Revision as of 23:23, 9 September 2006

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Archived

None of the conversations about the article seemed to be current, so it seemed a good time to archive the entire talk page. --jpgordon 04:40, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

11 million

shouldnt the first number of victims on the page be 11 million and not just the number of jewish victims then 'others'58.107.175.127 10:32, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

restructure massively

imagine you are a schoolchild embarking on your first research on the holocaust for school, how confused would you be after reading this?. this page would personally have confused the shit out of me if i had have known nothing previously about it. we need to make this page more comprehensive and simple, atleast in the opening few paragraphs. i dont have the time to do it myself, that and the last time i tried to i got blocked for some reason.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.107.175.127 (talk • contribs)

I tend to agree. Some ideas start out quite simply. But different people add and add and add to the sentences complicating them further and further. It may be an idea to have a very simple intro, and move the technical stuff further down the way for the experts actually who want to read all of it. Wallie 22:07, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Book Suggestion

I'd like to suggest the following book/ text collection for critical reading: the Holocaust

Definition of Holocaust

Since encarta, American Heritage Dictionary, and wiktionary all define "The Holocaust" as involving killing, I propose that the first sentence in this article should be changed to remove the phrase, "state-led systematic persecution and"— Preceding unsigned comment added by Olorinish (talk • contribs)

Do you mean that "state-led systematic persecution and genocide" implies that killing wasn't involved? -- Donald Albury 11:27, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

No, I am saying that the current article implies that the persecution actions were part of the Holocaust, which is inconsistent with more accepted definitions.Olorinish 21:33, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

The important point is not what Encarta, American Heritage or Wiktionary say, but rather are there sources cited to support the statements in the article. And, I see, the source cited for that sentence does not mention 'persecution'. Now, you can be bold and removed 'perscution' from that sentence, and possibly irritate editors who have been involved in this article for a while (I'm not one of them, btw), or you can wait and see what other comments are made on this. -- Donald Albury 00:15, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I always thought the word holocaust related to large fires, such as the Coconut Grove fire. That is why I have a problem with this word. "Shoah" or "Pogrom" are much less confusing terms. Wallie 18:23, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Languages, including the meaning of words, keep changing. Economic downturns in the United States used to be called 'depressions', until the Great Depression. Now, the 'Great Depression' is often referred to simply as the Depression, and economic downturns since then are not called 'depressions'. Similarly, 'the Holocaust' was a holocaust so horrendous that it has largely preempted the use of the term for lesser tragedys. So, indeed, the Cocoanut Grove fire may well have been described as a 'holocaust' at the time, but I doubt The Station nightclub fire was called a 'holocaust' in news acounts when it occurred. 'Shoah' has entered the language as more or less a synonym for 'the Holocaust', although probably not as well known yet. Pogrom, however, still has a distinct meaning, and one that is useful to have. To me, anyway, 'pogrom' still denotes sporadic, often spontaneous (or, at least, not overtly led) violence against an ethnic group (primarily Jews). Pogoms, while often incited by government agents, do not have the bureaucratic organization and thoroughness of the Holocaust. -- Donald Albury 12:51, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Ivrit

Is it possible to get the words in Hebrew and Yiddish alphabets to read right to left? At present they are written out backwards in the article, which could be misleading for anyone not familiar with the alphabets. I tried rearranging the letters but can't crack the system for writing Ivrit on WP. Smerus 21:16, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

How about simply enter them backwards in the keyboard so they'll display the right way around? .siht ekiL It's a horribly bad method but it might work. Kasreyn 01:33, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

bizrrely , the only way I could correct these words was by copying them into Word, rearranging them and then pasting them back - but surely there is an easier way?--Smerus 08:30, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

That picture

Re Killing of 5,000 Jews in Kaunas by Lithuanian nationalists in June 1941. The SS urged anti-communist partisan leader Klimajtis to attack the Jews to show that "the liberated population had resorted to the most severe measures against the ... Jewish enemy." I takes a lot to shock me... and to think that Lithuania is now in the European Union!! What a traversty. It would be interesting for someone, or the person that put the picture in to explain the full story behind this. Maybe POV, but I cannot imagine any Nazi (German) person sinking to this level. This is special, Wallie 19:34, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I think the background is simply the Nazi line that Communism was a Jewish conspiracy. It was precisely because the Nazis had 'sunk to this level' that they were able to encourage others to do the same. Let my remind Wallie that in fact Germany is also a member of the European Union; and that there were (and are) good and bad Lithuanians, Germans, Englishmen, etc. There is nothing 'special' alas in people behaving badly.--Smerus 09:01, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

But how can you hate Communism so much to do this to people? Even Americans under McCarthyism would not go down anywhere near this level. Anyway, Lithuania was later a Communist country. So they must have gotten over their hatred. Wallie 11:36, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Wallie, please read about the history of Europe after World War II and understand how Lithuania, and other East European countries, were sold into the slavery of Stalinist communism, against their will, by the complacency of Roosevelt and the impotence of Churchill. If it is true, as you claim on your userpage, that you 'love everybody', then don't condemn a country wholesale without investigating the facts. I hold no brief for the Lithuanians - I am in fact a Jew - but let's not use WP to start, or vent, prejudices. Smerus 08:15, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

OK. I just got very upset by that picture. Wallie 22:07, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Hey, that's natural... if such things didn't upset you, you wouldn't be human. I think everyone who edits these articles, does so with unsettled stomach. All the best, Kasreyn 00:10, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

See Wiyot people#History, Bear River Massacre, Sand Creek Massacre, Marias Massacre and Wounded Knee Massacre for examples of what Americans have been capable of doing. This kind of behavior is always wrong, but one should be careful about holding one's own country up as a paragon of restraint. -- Donald Albury 17:20, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

You seem to forget that these American Historical episodes you mention, were conducted by the Army, they were not carried out in such a brutal way, do not involve the sheer numbers of people killed, and most of all were done in a much earlier period in history. People should look into their own hearts and ask themselves truthfully "Are people that I know in my country capable of this?". I am sure that most would say no. Unfortunately Lithuanians know otherwise about themselves. Wallie 17:59, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Holocaust redirect

The Holocaust page is currently a redirect to a disambiguation page. If nobody objects, I think it should redirect here, because The Holocaust is what most people mean when they say "holocaust," in my opinion. Thoughts? -- Where 02:06, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, the disambig should be moved to Holocaust (disambiguation).--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk} 03:14, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I thought Holocaust redirected to The Holocaust in the past. On the disambig page this article is the third one listed after about two paragraphs of text. Since most users are probably looking for this article a redirect makes sense. GabrielF 03:27, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Holocaust Cruelty fork

Please see Holocaust Cruelty and it's talk page.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk} 03:14, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

The Causes of Hate

I can't seem to find in the article an explanation of why did nazis go after Jews and other groups of people. Or why, for instance, they hated the communists. And why did they single out the Jews for extermination. This is not explained. Seems a little odd, that in 1933 they would suddenly one day start passing all kinds of exclusion and discriminatory laws. --xarm 05:35, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Holocaust Cruelty Redirect/Merge

Many who have read my article on Holocaust Cruelty have noted that the subject does not need an article of its own, and should be merged with the holocaust article. I have therefore taken the liberty of selecting the most relevant points of the Holocaust Cruelty article and have merged them with the main article on the Holocaust. Ahadland 15:42, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

It is already merged then? If so, the notice at the top of the page should be removed. Lagringa 06:37, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

And Holocaust Cruelty changed to a redirect. -- Donald Albury 10:51, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm unsure on how to perform a redirect Ahadland 14:10, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I've taken care of it. --jpgordon 14:39, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

And you deleted the redirect. I don't really care, but -- why? --jpgordon 15:03, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, the article now has no reason to exist, and I thought deleting all the info on it would delete the article

OK. It's gone now. --jpgordon 16:05, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

3 million Polish Jews

This is incorrect. These so-called Polish Jews were in fact part of the USSR as of 17 September 1939. The part of Poland occupied by Germany contained 2 million Jews while the western Ukraine and western Byelorussia liberated by USSR contained 1 million. Out of 5.2 million Jews in USSR, 2.2 million died. Needless to say, the deaths of 2.2 million Soviet Jews is not any different from the deaths of tens of millions of Soviet Russians. Disproportionate emphasis upon Jews is insolent to those who receive considerably less attention like the 12 million killed Chinese. The "Holocaust" is purely a Zionist Jewish interpretation of World War II Jewry and is a fundamental violation of NPOV policy. The term "Holocaust" cannot be located in the Big Soviet Encyclopedia which reveals the inherently Jewish POV nature of the term "Holocaust". The Chinese don't talk about the "Holocaust" but instead focus on the horrors endured by the Japanese occupation.

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