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Revision as of 17:10, 10 September 2006

Please read this Hi, and welcome. Take a deep breath and relax your eyebrows. If you are about ready to explode it is suggested that you stop for a minute and relax, because that indeed may happen after sifting through these heated debates. This is a controversial topic, and has always been.

Armenia Unassessed

Armenian genocide is within the scope of WikiProject Armenia, an attempt to improve and better organize information in articles related or pertaining to Armenia and Armenians. If you would like to contribute or collaborate, you could edit the article attached to this page or visit the project page for further information.ArmeniaWikipedia:WikiProject ArmeniaTemplate:WikiProject ArmeniaArmenian ??? This article has not yet received a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Turkey Unassessed

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Turkey, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Turkey and related topics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.TurkeyWikipedia:WikiProject TurkeyTemplate:WikiProject TurkeyTurkey ??? This article has not yet received a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Armenian genocide received a peer review by Misplaced Pages editors, which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.

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Archives

Please do not edit archived pages. If you want to react to a statement made in a archived discussion, please make a new header on THIS page. -- Mgm| 09:20, Feb 23, 2005 (UTC) Archives: Archive 1 (709 kb) Archive 2 (698 kb) Archive 3 (648 kb) Archive 4 (103 kb) Archive 5 (113 kb) Archive 6 (327 kb) Archive 7 (225 kb) Archive 8 (215 kb) Archive 9 (139 kb) Archive 10 (254 kb) Archive 11 (385 kb) Archive 12 (133 kb) Fadix Analysis (575 kb) A Letter from The International Association of Genocide Scholars

Ravished Armenia

Someone should mention this movie in the Art section: Ravished Armenia.--Eupator 14:30, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

The promtional poster of this film is highly denigrating and racist, it has no business here lutherian 13:18, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

No matter what your opinion of it is, it's still history and should remain intact. Please stop reverting this article and writing sarcastic remarks in reference to other users. -- Clevelander 12:03, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

progpaganda back on track

Looks like the usual band of Armenian suspects (and their devoted admirers) are back in business, turning this topic into a circus. Tsk tsk! lutherian 11:48, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I see one of the prominant members of the band of suspects is already busy in a revert war! Tsk tsk! lutherian 12:00, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

"Usual band of Armenian suspects?" -- Clevelander 12:04, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

yeah, with your greek orthodox sidekick, right? lutherian 12:17, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

U made that comment, lutherian, before i make any of my reverts... U knew in advance that your edit would be reverted, that's why u accused (in advance) anyone who would possible revert... I'm sorry, but keep your POV for yourself... (btw, don't say 'greek orthodox' as if it is an insult... LOOL) --Hectorian 12:24, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

not at all, I added stuff that had been deleted without any comments and out of the blue you guys come in and without any explanation reinstate the deletions. I dont know what your definition of civility is, but your attitude does not even come close lutherian 12:32, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

...and you would consider saying "gosh im sooooo scared that I need to take a dump this instant" to be civil? -- Clevelander 13:22, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree that my reply is not civil, but who started the fire? lutherian 14:11, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

You did. -- Clevelander 14:58, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Hectorian WP:3RR violation

You have disregarded the warning which reflects on your bad faith lutherian 12:20, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I did not break any rule. If the IP is yours u are in biggggggggggg trouble... --Hectorian 12:26, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

gosh im sooooo scared that I need to take a dump this instant, is that ok with u? lutherian 12:29, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I think it is pretty obvious the only reason that it hasnt been officialy recognized as a genocidal act is because certain Nations like the United States and others wish to maintain good relations with Turkey. Furthermore, just admit that Armenians have had it rough throughout history and even had to bear the brunt of Islamic Imperialism at the hands of the ruthless Turkic barbarians.

Lutherian RFC

Don't you think it's time?--Eupator 15:25, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Thoughts from Jorgenpfhartogs

Gentlemen, please keep it civilized. Whether, you're right or not. This topic is highly controversial so a NPOV is almost impossible. Just recide to facts and not to popular beliefs. I won't agree or deny there has been an Armenian Genocide: all I know is that a lot of Armenians died in those last moments of the War and if, as mentioned to me by Turks, this was a reprisal for atrocities committed by Armenians, the please proof this. It has been suggested that the proof supplied by the "Western World" is one-sided and always favours their "Christian allies". I do not see the world as divided between east and west and between Christians and muslims. If there was a Turkish genocide by Aremnians than proof this and if the proof given by so-called Armenian Supporters is wrong them please mention why. Jorgenpfhartogs 15:33, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

errrr "Turkish genocide by Aremnians"? Thats the first time I hear that the Armenians comitted a genocide on Turks! Could you rephrase pls? lutherian 16:09, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, this has been suggested quite often. Stanford Shaw a proffesor at UCLA depicted the Armenians as the victimizers rather than victims in their book The Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey. Bernard Lewis, a well known Western scholar of Islam has expressed similiar sentiments. This has been discussed in the epilogue of The Burning Tigress if you would care to research these claims more.Max The Dog 14:12, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I should add that these claims are not treated kindly in Balakian's book. Nor, do I personally believe the Armenians committed any acts near the scale as what was perpetrated upon them. Max The Dog 14:14, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I think, my dear fellow, that you are confusing massacre with genocide, two words with very different meanings. I dont think that professor Shaw ever said that the massacres perpetrated by Armenians on Turks amounted to an act of genocide! Balakian is not a reference as he is extremely one sided (which is to be expected from a hardcore armenian). What is being contested here is whether the massacres perpetrated by the Turks on their armenian subjects amounts to genocide. There is a world of evidence that rejects this claim and this is the main reason why this topic has been shrouded in controversy since the accusations first came to light lutherian 17:34, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Balakian is one of the finest writers that I know of (regardless of his ethnicity). I have read both The Burning Tigris and Black Dog of Fate. The former, I believe is a very solid source of information (not to mention very well-written). Balakian has certainly done painstaking research on the subject. I also enjoy his creative writing (though I enjoy the works of William Saroyan more). -- Clevelander 23:38, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

This article spends far too much time explaining away why Turkey rejects the accusations of the Genocide yet little has been cited to how the Genocide was carried out. The best thing to do is move them into another article called Denial of the Armenian Genocide (the current redirect is insufficent). While Turkey and to a lesser degree Azerbaijan deny the Genocide from ever occuring (other countries that do overtly deny it do it for obvious political reasons; i.e. US Congress vote in 2000), the overall consensus is that it did happen. We can spend our time editing the article on the facts we have and what was being reported back then and then devote the Denial page to what Turkey's position is to the matter and opposing views thereafter. Nearly 15 kilobytes of this article just spends time refuting Armenian charges.--MarshallBagramyan 00:52, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree, I think it's time somebody created a Denial of the Armenian Genocide article. -- Clevelander 01:13, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

yes, thats perfect, why dont we rewrite histroy, remove all the opposition to the genocide thesis and make this topic a pure propaganda piece. And to add insult to injury call the opposing view denial to put them in the same category as those that deny the Jewish holocaust, like that the credibility of the opposing view can be shattered further. Wow, your modus operandi seems to be identical whoever you are as long as you are of armenian ancestory or a sympathizer because you have a serious gripe with the existance of Turkey. There is a very predictable pattern here which is what makes this whole exercise such a big farce lutherian 05:20, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

The mere fact is that the "opposition" to the Genocide thesis is held by an extremely small minority: Turkey and only a handful of relatively unknown scholars. So far, the "opposing view" does not present any citations nor does not refute of what eyewitnesses were claiming back then. Its going to take much more than screaming "they were Christian, they were biased which meant they lied" than that. You've done little to show us what irks you so much. The Genocide has been recognized by many nations and so the opposition position does not deserve so much room on this article especially when its a minority and oft-criticized view. --MarshallBagramyan 05:58, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

You Mr. Bagramyan can argue all you want, it is a matter of FACT that your opinion of events of that period are nothing short of bigotry. When you add a gay racist satanist heavy metal bands to support your claims, propaganda ads or assume that because some fundamentalist american physician talked about massacres that his POV should be taken seriously or that convicted criminals like Akcam speak the truth whilst the words of highly respected scholars such as Lewis or Shaw should be dismissed because you and others claim that they are on the payroll of the Turkish government, its difficult to take you seriously. And maybe the most insidious and despicable addition to this topic is the attempt to make comparisons with the Jewish Holocaust to gain the sympathy of Jews. It is frankly in very bad taste! What you people fail to understand is that bullying, denigrating your opponents and making wild claims and attempting to distort the truth will get you nowhere. No wonder this argument has been dragging on for more than 90 yrs. lutherian 08:39, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Lutherian, Taner Akçam is a very credible scholar and free thinker. He is also very brave for speaking against what the government of his country is doing - attempting to suppress the facts and violating human rights. Lewis, Shaw, and McCarthy on the other hand have both been payed and sponsered by the Turkish government to support their denial of the actual events.

I would also say that the Armenian Genocide was in many ways similar to the Holocaust. Take for example the death marches, extermination centers, cutting off the "head of Armenian society" (the intellectuals, writers, etc.), throwing Armenians into a cave and then placing a torch in front of the entrance as a sort of crude "gas chamber," the cattle cars, the Armenian resistance at Musa Dagh and Van (like the Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto), and of course there are even more events that I can use to compare both. Your statement that comparing it to the Jewish Holocaust is "insidious and despicable" is, in my opinion bigotry. In fact, I would say that the Genocide itself and its subsequent denial should properly be dubbed insidious and despicable. Also, you mention "bullying." All I have to say is look at Armenian and Turkey today. Who has closed off their border to Armenia? Who has forced Armenians in their own country into not accepting the Genocide? Who is trying to assimlate their Armenian population? Who dubs all Armenians as terrorists? The answer is consistently Turkey. -- Clevelander 10:27, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

yeah thats right Celvelander, the evil, despicable, inferior, barbarian Turks, they are the ones to blame for all the death and destruction, heck why not even the Jewish holocaust? (im surprised none of you came up with some way of blaming the Turks for the Jewish holocaust). Poooor Armenians, such an honorable and peaceful and loyal race, would not hurt a fly and how dare we call them terrorists??? For what happened in the 70's and 80's? Come on, after all it was just a bunch of inferior Turks that were murdered, its so easy to read your thoughts! Im just curious, do you believe that you are going to get Turkey to recognize a complete fallacy? And maybe follow it up by opening its borders to allow free trade? And whilst you're at it maybe throw some land as a goodwill gesture? Do you really believe that or are just insane? Have the armenians ever showed any goodwill gesture since this dispute arose? Ha, that would be the day! lutherian 16:34, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

:) Just reading the stuff this guy says to me makes me want to laugh; moreso whenever he claims that Armenians are filled with bigotry when 90% of his post fills up against pent-up anger against Armenians :). Do you really believe that or are just insane? Hehe, this isn't the complaint dept. pal, this is Misplaced Pages, post your diatribe elsewhere.--MarshallBagramyan 17:01, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

actually im lamenting about the sorry state of this topic which has been hijacked by a bunch of thugs who want to push their propaganda ways lutherian 18:37, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Սթափ ֆիդինգ դը թռոլ, both of you. --Eupator 17:19, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Բայց Ինքը սկսեց :) դժբախտաբար, Ինքը ստեղ էլ կ մնա --MarshallBagramyan 18:10, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Արդեն իրան ոչ ոք լուրջ չի ընդունում մեկա, ես գնտում որ դրանց հետ վիճել իմաստ չունի այլ հակառակը պատասխանելով մենք իրանց ոնց որ թե օրինականություն տանք: Վաղ թե ուշ դրան կտշեն ստեղից:--Eupator 18:24, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

fjalsdfkjéweahéwefwasfsdsucka ma pagoda?asdhjsldfehaeoiergosdf apsdfhfweoawhe? lutherian 18:37, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

lol, խենթացավ հիմարը; պարզապես ճԻշտ ես, այս Թուրքերը էշից ավելի "էշ" էն; եվ այտպես էլ կ մնան --MarshallBagramyan 19:08, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for interfering, but i could not help myself on commenting in this: Im just curious, do you believe that you are going to get Turkey to recognize a complete fallacy? And maybe follow it up by opening its borders to allow free trade? (by lutherian)... I am astonished! Do u really believe that Turkey will be accepted in the EU, and we will open our borders to allow free trade and citizens' movements as long as Turkey does not fulfill the criteria? Recently the European Parliament said that the recognition of the Armenian Genocide may be a criterio for Turkey's accession... If Turkey's deep state (i never blame the people, u know:)...) wants "special treatment" (as they want in the Cyprus issue), all they'll get will be a "special relation with the EU"... Full membership will come only if they act and do what all the other members do... --Hectorian 17:34, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

you dont get it do you? Its the desire to align itself with European norms that matters because thats where it has most to gain. Turkey has no business joining the EU and they wont, thank God for that! And you know where the EU can shove its offer for a "special relationship", right? By the middle of the century, your old fart EU will be begging for a strong enough labor force to support its rapidly ageing population. Look around you (maybe not in the case of insignificant members like greece I may add), the social institutions are crumbling under their own weight, its pathetic. No way josé, Turkey certainly doesnt belong to your shithole and soon to be bankrupt club! lutherian 18:37, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, yeah... Europe does not sacrifice democracy for labour force... Btw, what u "forgot" to say is that by the middle of the century maybe Turkey will be partitioned AGAIN. Cause, as u probably know, Europe is getting united, but Turkey is disolving... a view of what is happening in the big cities and the SE, as well as the ongoing disputes between Erdogan and the new Prima General, are forcing things to the edge... --Hectorian 18:49, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

yeah I know it gives you a hard on to fantasize about the end of Turkey and its rather funny considering that less than 60 years ago your beloved Eurosuckers were busy killing each other wholesale. You talk of unity? Uh its not what the polls show, lets see.....who rejected the so called European constitution not so long ago? Paleeeeassse, take your silly ideas to lala land! lutherian 20:30, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

...and you would call Turkey a model of unity? I suppose that's why the Kurds want to separate from it. Let us not forget that just a decade ago your beloved Turkey was busy killing off and assimilating the Kurds wholesale. -- Clevelander 20:38, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Guys stick to the topic please.--MarshallBagramyan 19:08, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

It begun as something relevant: Turkish blockage on Armenia and EU Parliament considering the recognition of the Armenian Genocide as a precondition for Turkey's accesion. but it was carried away... anyway, i am not gonna continue it. --Hectorian 19:14, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

You are correct Hectorian. What we mean is: Μην ταϊ'στε...--Eupator 22:37, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Hijacked Topic

Once again this controversial topic is hijacked by a band of hard core armenians and their sympathizers. The usual suspects: Eupator, Hectorian, Clevelander, marshalbargmayan and angus amongst others. Their complete lack of scruples and their highly biased and propagandistic approach to this topic is resulting in a very misleading view of events, way below wiki standards. Any information that contradicts the genocide thesis, irrespective of its validity is rapidly eliminated and kept out of the topic through edit warring maintained by a 24 hour monitoring by the core group and their stooges. So congratulations to you for making this arguably one of the poorest (in terms of quality of content) topics in wikiland. lutherian 16:35, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Has ever crossed your mind the idea of u trying to hijack this article, but other users not letting u to? --Hectorian 16:40, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Do you understand the definition of hijacking? In any case the evidence is on the pages and I have nothing else to add! lutherian 16:55, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, right... --Hectorian 16:57, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

FYI - Comment added at request of Artist to "art" section

Armenian-American keyboardist Derek Sherinian collaborated with duduk master Djivan Gasparyan on the song "Prelude To Battle", which Sherinian "dedicated to his great grandmother who fought the Turks in the Armenian genocide" as part of his 2006 CD "Blood of the Snake".

Thank you.

Tvccs 06:53, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Gee, i can just picture a super granny fighting ottoman soldiers, LOL. Good thing there werent many of these grannys, they could have very well led the turks to extinction, LOL. lutherian 06:57, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Turco-Armenian Relations and British Propaganda During The First World War. LVIII

• Turco-Armenian Relations and British Propaganda During The First World War. LVIII

• The Turco-Armenian 'Adana Incidents' in the Light of Secret British Documents (July, 1908 - December ,1909)

• several articles —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.96.213.72 (talk • contribs) 19:49, 9 September 2006 (UTC).

What an ungrateful government you have. The British and their Russophobia are the only reason the Republic of Turkey even exists today.--Eupator 19:50, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Anon, pls ignore this provocative racist! lutherian 06:52, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

System of a Down

System of a Down, a band whose all it's members and Armenian, have released several songs about the Armenian Genocide. Discuss. Emerald Flame 23:15, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

yeah, there is already a section for gay devil worshippers in the main topic, no need to repeat lutherian 17:10, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

• Unassessed Armenian articles
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