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We are having a disagreement regarding the wording in the first paragraph of the article. Should we have:
We are having a disagreement regarding the wording in the first paragraph of the article. Should we have:
Revision as of 01:01, 22 November 2016
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We are having a disagreement regarding the wording in the first paragraph of the article. Should we have:
1) "The practice is found in Africa, Asia and the Middle East, and within diaspora communities from countries where FGM is common."
United Nations Population Fund, December 2015: "And in many western countries, including Australia, Canada, Europe, the United States and the United Kingdom, FGM is practiced among diaspora populations from areas where the practice is common."
No change - the RFC should have said or offered the existing language as an option, so I'm inserting it, which I also think is better. At "...in Djibouti, Egypt, Eritrea, Guinea, Mali, Sierra Leone, Somalia and Sudan. The practice is also found elsewhere in Asia, the Middle East, and among communities from these areas around the world." the language of the other two options lacks the word 'elsewhere' which conveys the focus is in certain nations by Female_genital_mutilation#Prevalence. So, neither is an improvement and stick with the way it already is. I'm also thinking that 'Africa, Asia, and the Middle East' is too generic -- Asia being an awfully large area -- but that's not what the RFC was asking. Markbassett (talk) 23:51, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
I support no change too. I don't think that the wording is too long, or cumbersome. It gives adequate information in a quick glance. The two options are too broad. Asia is a big place, so is the Middle East, and as the original wording explains, FGM isn't prevalent in all Asian, African, or Middle Eastern countries. —Hexafluoride07:54, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
Support 1st version
First version I could live with no change, but the existing version is a bit cumbersome and lengthy for a lede. In the body it would be harmless. I emphatically disagree with the idea that "diaspora" is unhelpful or confusing in context; it concisely, inoffensively, and informatively describes the precise meaning and associated implications relevant in context. It furthermore promotes clearer, more vivid wording. That sentence is neater and more fluently worded than either of the alternatives. Such considerations trump vague ideas that every word must be "fully understandable by the general reader with average reading ability", when the alternative is to write a circumlocution where a single word would have sufficed. There is (used to be? I haven't kept in touch) a simple WP in which we were limited to monosyllabic (disyllabic?) words. In such a medium we could reasonably agonise over every word that only 50% (charitably assuming that the drafter of the stricture meant "median" where he wrote "average") of educated adults would understand, but really, for any high-school graduate in the First World, clicking on a single link in the lede in case of doubt is hardly a forbidding obstacle. Personally I think this is storm-in-teacup stuff, but the underlying principles deserve some serious thought. JonRichfield (talk) 06:43, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
Support first version per Jon, but note that this issue has already been dealt with. Neither sentence has been used. The RfC was opened prematurely and is a waste of time. Pinging James. SarahSV20:43, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
If you (re)read the foregoing explanation it is easy to see why nothing of the sort was required, in spite of the contrary opinions. JonRichfield (talk) 06:55, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
Support for the reasons given by JonRichfield, 'diaspora' is not an especially obscure term and is not only more concise, but also more precise. A diaspora community is not simply one which descends from a particular place, it also, to an extent, preserves the culture and/or values of the 'homeland'. This article (necessarily) uses a large number of precise anatomical and surgical terms, (do many people - even women - use labia minora/majora on a daily basis? Or do they prefer 'analagous' or euphemistic terms to describe everyday discomforts or problems? How many readers are sure what 'infibulation' means?), therefore using one additional (useful and concise) term to describe the people hardly seems a problem.Pincrete (talk) 16:06, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
Support. The word "diaspora" carries a number of disparate meanings. Intuitively the first meaning that comes to mind is a specific group of people who have immigrated in response to a single event. The second version is very clear and there is no loss of meaning. Despite widespread use in official documents of the word "diaspora" the second version is more readable. JFW | T@lk14:17, 23 October 2016 (UTC)
Support. "Originating" is clear and appropriate in meaning, while "diaspora" has connotations that are irrelevant and distracting. Maproom (talk) 07:20, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
As you know, this isn't the only area of dispute. You reverted the entire update and copy edit, restored some of it but want to retain the old lead. Does this mean I can fix the rest of the lead and article, apart from the diaspora sentence? SarahSV00:50, 23 October 2016 (UTC)
That was mostly what I had issues with. This sentence is also overly long "There have been international efforts since the 1970s to persuade practitioners to abandon FGM, and as a result it has been outlawed or restricted in most of the countries in which it occurs, although the laws are poorly enforced." Would be better as two sentence IMO. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 00:58, 23 October 2016 (UTC)
I removed that sentence. You restored it. I'm not willing to discuss every single copy editing decision. This has now taken me all day: hours for the edit and hours discussing with you. May I restore the rest of the edit if I use your latest version of the diaspora sentence? SarahSV01:03, 23 October 2016 (UTC)
You have still not replied here to justify your removal of my changes.
I don't know what justification you want for the removal of whatever it was. Please be specific.
If you're disputing all the changes to the lead, please list them here and include them in the RfC, rather than pretending this is about one word. And include mention of your previous three versions of the diaspora sentence, which left it inaccurate. SarahSV01:26, 23 October 2016 (UTC)
I like the first better, despite the more technical lexicon. I find the grammar and referents in the second version confusing. However, I think both can be improved. How about something like "The practice is found in Africa, Asia and the Middle East, and in communities of immigrants from those regions"? —David Eppstein (talk) 01:28, 23 October 2016 (UTC)
Sure would be happy with that aswell. Some of the people are born in the new country so maybe "The practice is found in Africa, Asia and the Middle East, and in communities from those regions"? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 01:39, 23 October 2016 (UTC)
*Suggestion: 2) "The practice is found in Africa, Asia and the Middle East, and other areas of the world with peoples from countries where FGM is common." CuriousMind01 (talk) 11:12, 23 October 2016 (UTC)
SV made a good point that some of the people who undergo FGM are born outside of Africa, Asia, and the Middle East and it is that they are within a community that is from these regions. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:00, 23 October 2016 (UTC)
Graphic image warning
Hello, I do not regularly edit wikipedia articles, but I have a suggestion. Perhaps a graphic image warning for Complications > Pregnancy, childbirth > External Images is in order.
"RESULTS: This study shows an inverse association (OR=0.508; 95% CI: 0.376-0.687) between
FGM and HIV/AIDS, after adjusting for confounding variables."
"DISCUSSION: The inverse association between FGM and HIV/AIDS established in this study
suggests a possible protective effect of female circumcision against HIV/AIDS. This finding
suggests therefore the need to authenticate this inverse association in different populations and
also to determine the mechanisms for the observed association."TheCircumcisionExpert (talk) 21:05, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
"This study investigated whether there is a direct association between FGM and HIV/AIDS.
Surprisingly, the results indicated that the practice of FGM turned out to reduce the risk of HIV. "TheCircumcisionExpert (talk) 21:06, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
The Pubmed reference says nothing about female mutilation. It speaks to longer exposure and different strains in different populations. Could you produce a reliable 3rd party reference with in depth discussion of the benefits of this procedure? Like national newspaper or medical journal? Cotton2 (talk) 15:28, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
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