Misplaced Pages

Talk:Macedonia (terminology): Difference between revisions

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.
Browse history interactively← Previous editNext edit →Content deleted Content addedVisualWikitext
Revision as of 15:15, 11 September 2006 editNikoSilver (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users13,519 edits →Regional Macedonians← Previous edit Revision as of 15:21, 11 September 2006 edit undoNikoSilver (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users13,519 edits →Comments:: avez vous fait votre jeu?Next edit →
Line 313: Line 313:
***A first? You mean Macedonia's first. My case is hardly 'genuinely ]'...] 22:36, 6 September 2006 (UTC) ***A first? You mean Macedonia's first. My case is hardly 'genuinely ]'...] 22:36, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Vote comment''' by ]: The pipe trick and the already established consensus were catalytic for my vote. ] 12:08, 8 September 2006 (UTC) *'''Vote comment''' by ]: The pipe trick and the already established consensus were catalytic for my vote. ] 12:08, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Rien ne va plus!''' I'll ask an admin to close this poll... ] 15:21, 11 September 2006 (UTC)


== In-line refs == == In-line refs ==

Revision as of 15:21, 11 September 2006

Template:Featured article is only for Misplaced Pages:Featured articles.

Macedonia (terminology) received a peer review by Misplaced Pages editors, which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.


Archive
Archives
Archive 1 Archive 2
Templates

ROM/FYROM official propaganda

There was a querry regarding the official involvement or otherwise of Skopje in promoting material that shows the region of Macedonia as the official borders of the state - thereby claiming lands from Albania, Bulgaria, Greece and Serbia. I would like to add to the previous list:

  • The official history manual for schools: History book, Grade 8 History, Skopje 1992.

The table of contents is quite indicative http://uranus.ee.auth.gr/new/eng/macedonia.old/kofos/fig15.html]: For the period from 1913 to 1990, the chapters are divided into subchapters on 'The Aegean part of Macedonia' and 'The Pirin part of Macedonia'. The text and context promotes the notion that the ROM consists of the region of Macedonia, a region that forms geographically and ethnically a single entity, but has been politically divided since 1913, with only 'Vardar Macedonia' being liberated. For the partisan activities in WWII, there is a map of 'The free zone in Macedonia in August 1943' . The free areas are shaded and they include those parts of Greek Macedonia that were temporarily controlled by Yugoslav Macedonian partisans; but the map excludes the free areas of Greek Macedonia liberated and controlled by the Greek partisans of ELAS. In other words, the areas of Greek Macedonia held by Greek partisans are considered as much under occupation as those controlled by the Axis. As for Greek history (excluding Greek Macedonia), from antiquity to the modern age, it is treated quite fairly. There are more examples in those school books Politis 13:44, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

  • This: is a text we should all carefully read and criticise before we start modifying the article. The link was provided by Politis, and I truncated some part of the address. Please read and comment. :NikoSilver: 15:27, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Interesting, is this to say they have one textbook for the whole country? I'd like to get some !!!DISAMBIGUATION MODE ON!!! Macedonian  !!!DISAMBIGUATION MODE OFF!!! input on this. As it is presented (by Mr. Kofos) it certainly is quite damning. How does this refer to the article though? - FrancisTyers · 15:38, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Last time I checked, a few years ago, Skopje issued standard school manuals for all the country. If this is still the case, perhaps a friend from Skopje can fill us on that. But the point remains that, at least until the 1990s, the history books held that line; and we have the pictures of the relevant pages. Personally, I very much doubt if changes were made; school manuals are quite reluctant to re-edit themselves. Now, how is it relevant? Good question. Perhaps somewhere in the context of irredentist usage of history and, in our case, of terminology? The floor is yours... Politis 16:00, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
This is yet another example of how gross the propaganda in that country is... All of "their" history is either fabricated or the twisted history of Bulgaria and Greece. I really hope our government is finally going to do something about it now (see Ivaylo Kalfin), like vetoing their EU membership (around 2015) if they don't put an end to this. They've been usurping Bulgarian history for decades now and it's a shame our government hasn't done much to stop them. I mean, when it's the history of the Bulgarian (now Slavic Macedonian) population of Macedonia, it's also theirs, it's a part of their Bulgarian heritage, but they just steal it and traduce us and all things Bulgarian in their history books (and not only there). Todor→Bozhinov 16:58, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I saw a news item recently whereby Sofia would consider blocking its EU membership if it continued misusing Bulgarian history. I think their historians have lost all sense of overlapping history; there is also a tendency where everything containing the term 'Macedonia/n' is 'theirs'. It is unfortunate that they do not seem to accept there are some historical situations that belong equally to many nations (ex. Saints Cyril and Methodius), in their case, this is most of their historical totems. Imagine if they had called the country 'Byzantium', or 'Illyria', or even 'Europa' :-). Politis 17:11, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Incidentally, what do Bulgarian and Greek textbooks have to say about the region? I wonder do Greek textbooks mention those little inconvienences and do Bulgarian textbooks accurately reflect the role their country played in the cold war. I know from experience that our textbooks include hardly anything of the Empire, so it wouldn't be surprising to find "Macedonia has always been Greek" in a Greek textbook or perhaps a downplaying of Bulgaria's subserviant role in a Bulgarian textbook. It certainly is a shame that people can't see that some culture belongs to the world (I think it was a Greek who said this). - FrancisTyers · 17:24, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes but that means nations should stop ranking and comparing themselves in any way, and that's not going to happen.   /FunkyFly.talk_  17:31, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Not with that attitude it isn't! :) - FrancisTyers · 21:37, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Trust the Greeks to come up with all the best quotes ;-) Will try and find out what Greek school manuals say. Politis 17:38, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Full text for 1829 quote

John Comstock, History of the Greek Revolution complied from official documents of the Greek Government... and other authentic sources; New York, 1829.

p.2. 'Geographical Situation and Population of Greece'. There is some difficulty in prescribing the exact boundaries of the country properly called Greece. Formerly it included Macedonia, Peloponnesus, the Ionian Islands, Crete, and a part of what is now called Albania. The present divisions of Greece, adopted by the provisional government, are the following: Eastern Hellas, Western Hellas, Morea, Epirus, Thessaly, Macedonia, Crete, and the Islands. p.7. M. Beaujour concludes the total population of Greece to be 1,920,000 including Macedonia. Politis 14:12, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, and Ypsilanti planned a government which would include the entire Balkan peninsula; so what? Nor does anything here show that Macedonia was never "presented" as part of the Ottoman Empire. Septentrionalis 21:21, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Has Politis actually looked at the book he cites, or is he also copying citations from elsewhere?

  • Comstock nowhere says anything about the "first presentation" of Macedonia, and since he is copying a document of the provisional government, the event is more likely to be in 1821. (And it can't be 1829; the London edition was printed 1828.)
  • Comstock is not a historian; he's an MD; it says so on his titlepage.
  • he identifies the pashalik of Salonica as the "southern portion of Macedonia".(p. 8)
  • "What portion of Macedonia comes within the boundaries of Greece we have no means of deciding. A line due east and west from the northern extremity of the Thermaic Gulf (Gulf of Salonica) to the mouth of the river Viosa (the ancient Aous) would include, according to the recent maps, a considerable proportion of that territory; while, according to Anacharsis, Macedonia Proper is still entirely north of such a line."
  • Having said that Greece is "bounded on the north by Macedonia and Upper Albania, Comstock proceeds to "estimate the population within the limits of Crete on the South, Thessaly and Epirus on the North, with the Eastern boundary of the Aegean, and Western boundary the Ionian Sea, together with the Islands over which the government claim jurisdiction" as 12.2 million, before citing Beaujour's wider area and estimate.

In short, part of the text fails verification; much of the rest of this is selective quotation. This leaves the bare statement that the provisional Government included Macedonia as one of the divisions of Greece, which should be located elsewhere than it is; clearly they did not state its boundaries. I will move it; if someone thinks it off topic, I will not complain. Septentrionalis 14:12, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

"Macedonians"?

“ Macedonians might speak a different language at the market and at home, and the same dialect might be called Serbian "with Bulgarian influences", Macedonian, or West-Bulgarian. ”

Ooh, I don't like this. I'm strongly opposed to calling a mostly Bulgarian-identifying population "ethnic Macedonian", if that is meant by "Macedonians". The Slavic population may have certainly spoken Turkish and Greek at the market, but that's not important. I particularly dislike the way that "same dialect" is first described as Serbian, than "Macedonian" (anachronistic) and in the end "West-Bulgarian". POV. Todor→Bozhinov 12:55, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

On the contrary, it's the basis of one of the ethnographic maps, I believe by a Bulgarian. (And it cuts both ways; the Pomaks spoke Bulgarian at the market.) Septentrionalis 14:25, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Where is that in the article? - FrancisTyers · 13:02, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Actually I see now. Well, it is cited, from Wilkinson, so unless you want to remove Wilkinson as "hopelessly POV" (which I think would be a bad idea) we should probably live with it. He doesn't specify ethnic Macedonian or regional Macedonian — presume it is the one that fits your POV and sleep soundly. - FrancisTyers · 13:05, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Changed to "an inhabitant of Macedonia", alrhough clumsier. Wilkinson does mention that the dialects of the area around Skopje were differently named by different ethnographers; if the order of the labels is somehow offensive, feel free to change them. Septentrionalis 13:09, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, is it really important to the article? And what period does Wilkinson refer to? Currently that part is very ambiguous, not quite important and possibly inaccurate. After all, it's the geography section and discussing language is a bit of a divergence from the topic. I'd suggest removing it. Todor→Bozhinov 14:03, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
It refers to the period between 1878 and 1912 (and to some extent after 1912); I thought that was clear. I think it important to show that the major difference between the ethnographers is in the internal divisions of Macedonia rather than the borders; and that their differences are in part justifiable. If you would rather have Wilkinson's comments on the motives, reasoning, and integrity of ethnographers of all nationalities, I can supply those instead. (That there are other applicable standards than self-identification is important.) Septentrionalis 14:21, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I would prefer to have Wilkinson's placenames spelt as he does; this avoids anachronisms; but I put this forth for discussion. Septentrionalis 14:21, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

A modest proposal

If any editor wants to write

...or

please go ahead and do that. Please make sure every clause is sourced and verifiable (as somebody's assertion); I will help defend such articles against hostile edits. Septentrionalis 20:55, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be better (lol, edit: worse) to have Claims to Macedonia? - FrancisTyers · 21:02, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm sure they can each fill up an article ;-}. I am serious in suggesting that such articles would be encyclopedic, and that (if every claim is sourced as "X claims this and this, and Y argues as follows that therefore Macedonia is rightfully Fooian") they would be NPOV - describe arguments, don't advocate them. Septentrionalis 15:50, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
I strongly disagree. The only contemporary X claims to Macedonia that have been sourced are the ones already illustrated in the article. I doubt you will have any content for contemporary Greek or Bulgarian claims to Macedonia to match these and make them deserve the equal status of an article title. This is just one more biased whitewashing attempt of undue weight. :NikoSilver: 11:49, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
The Greeks have no claim to the periphery called Macedonia? The Bulgarians have no claim to the area around Gotse Delchev? These are novel positions indeed. If you mean that these nations have no claims beyond their present borders, I'm not sure Todor would agree with you. Septentrionalis 15:33, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for your comments below. Please explain, because I don't understand how we can compare a Bulgarian claim over Bulgarian soil (Gotse Delchev (town)) and a Greek claim over Greek soil (Macedonia (Greece)) to a (pardon my Greekness:) Slavomacedonian claim to Greek and Bulgarian soil (all of Macedonia (region)). I don't consider that London being claimed by the Brits deserves a British claims of London article either. :NikoSilver: 20:25, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

10 August

I will, this once, consider the day's edits individually, with edit summary.

Pmanderson, I am responding below each, and this once, I am requesting politely you become more civil, assume good faith, and quit underestimating other people's work. :NikoSilver: 22:28, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I shall edit accordingly. Septentrionalis 16:50, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

And I will too. Please don't make me feel your comments are ironic again. :NikoSilver: 22:28, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Map

Map of Macedonia from 1885 by F.Bianconi

I would prefer this map to the present {{Geographical Macedonia}} template; chiefly because it is a geographical map; the template is a political map - it's most visible content is the 21st century boundaries, which are an anachronism. (I don't particularly care which geographical map we use, however.) Septentrionalis 02:54, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Replaced. Septentrionalis 18:14, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Hmm, lovely map, but my only problem this map reflects a particular and individual interpretation. It is a historical map and this article is not 'history' specific. I think the previous one was more neutral and representative, just the area. Politis 11:30, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Geographical Macedonia

.

We can use this one again, I suppose; but a geographical map should have some geography on it, don't you think? Septentrionalis 16:11, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
I think the purpose of the map is to show the area as it spreads across 5 countries, rather than its geographical features. This French one actually extends up to Prishtina and is inaccurate. Politis 16:17, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Look at the high resolution version; it extends, like most maps, just short of Prishtina. In any case, the caption notes what Wilkinson demonstrates, that maps vary slightly on including this or that town. But I don't insist on this one; a scan of Meinhard's map would be perfectly acceptable; Bianconi does have the advantage of making no ethnographic claims, however. Septentrionalis 17:05, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I added the templatised map too. Reasons:

  • It is an accurate geographical map (sat pic from NASA site)
  • It shows the geographic location of all sub-regions (major and minor), described in the adjacent text.
  • The present day borders coincide with the sub-region borders, as defined in the text.

:NikoSilver: 13:46, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

That template is objectionable; I have explained my objections in nominating it for deletion. Briefly, I find the map garish and unreadable, the prose tendentious, and both redundant. But one reason to nominate it is to find out what everyone else thinks. Septentrionalis 01:13, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

That template is highly descriptive, informative and objectionableive. Your tendentious objection is ...objectionable and has been dealt with accordingly. Another thing that is objectionable, is how on earth the vague east-ward Byzantine thema, managed to become the nice 1885 map without any description of that process. The whole Ottoman history chapter of Macedonia jumps from a vague distant area to the present day convenient interpretation of the region. What a coincidence! :NikoSilver: 11:36, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Westerners, including English speakers, have always called the area north and west of Thessaloniki "Macedonia"; there is no other name for it. This has nothing to do with the Byzantine theme (except cousinship), and the article does not claim causality. Most of the Westerners involved were ignorant of it, and the rest did not care. It is bad faith to assume FYROM influence; here, as on Talk:Imbros and Tenedos, I am a classicist, speaking for established English usage. Septentrionalis 15:43, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Do you have a source for a Westerner calling that area 'Macedonia' during Byzantine period? During early (let's say first 300 years) Ottoman period? :NikoSilver: 20:37, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
As far as the Byzantines were concerned, Macedonia was a province with its center at Adrianople (in Thrace). If any Byzantines did use the term in a different way, it would have been in a historical sense. --Telex 20:42, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I would have no objection to the satellite map itself; I think it might be useful; but I can't see the terrain, or even the alleged borders of "Macedonia" for all the coloring. Septentrionalis 23:43, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

This is self-contradicting:
  • Either you can't see the region because it's not colored enough...
  • or you can't see what is below because it's colored too much.
You can't claim both. My view is that the geographic features are less important than the sub-region borders. However, the geo features are still apparent behind the red-green-blue shades. Wherever the shade is lighter there is a plain, wherever the shade is darker there's a mountain. I'd be reluctant to emphasize the whole region's borders because I can't find a neutral (i.e. non-partisan) color:
  • Greek part is white with blue border (because it is sub-national and can't be yellow), like the Greek flag.
  • Slavomacedonian (pardon my Greekness) part is red like their flag, plus the yellow border is like the rays in the flag.
  • Bulgarian part is green (the only free color left that exists in their flag).
  • Minor parts are neutral colors (orange and purple).
I believe this map is the ultimate color compromise, plus it clearly shows to the 'uninformed reader' where the hell those sub-regions (described in geo section) are.
Re your reserves that it refers unduely to the irredentist nature of the names, I simply think that since these names are controversial and can be considered pejorative, the least thing we can do is provide them with a footnote. That's what we've done. That footnote would exist anyway, since the text on the left requires it.
Finally, the greatest confusion the 'uninformed reader' may have (IMHO) is Macedonia vs Macedonia and Macedonia. I think the map is essential in clarifying that confusion.
Please withdraw deletion proposal. :NikoSilver: 08:37, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Actually I do claim both. The (present) national boundaries are more visible than the color washes, which are more visible than the terrain. If we are going to have a geographic map of Macedonia, it should be exactly the reverse in both cases. Someone capable of producing this map should be capable of inverting this. Septentrionalis 20:40, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Some people think it's tasteful execution. :-)
Look, the national boundaries happen to coincide with the geographic sub-region boundaries, so it's ok. Coloring the rest of the map and leaving the terrain visible in the subregions is not an option either (how will you distinguish them from one another?)
The only solution was the one already applied: transparent colors. I experimented with various degrees of transparency, and this was the best result I could come up with. Sorry, I can't do better, but I could e-mail the whole thing (along with its 'objects', 'masks', 'lens effects' etc) in .cpt format (Corel PhotoPaint v.12) to whoever you point me to as 'capable' of improving it. •NikoSilver• 22:29, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Templates for deletion/Log/2006 August 28#Template:Geographical Macedonia: Case closed. •NikoSilver• 13:39, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Congratulations!

The Original Barnstar
I award this humble barnstar to all those who worked tirelessly to make this one the best article related to Macedonia, arguably the most complex and tense topic in the universe :) Todor→Bozhinov 18:37, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Common! There is more complex that that. :-) CG 10:16, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Nuclear physics? Back off, here comes Macedonia! :P Todor→Bozhinov 12:47, 26 August 2006 (UTC)


Renaming proposal

I wanted to post this during the nomination of the article, but I see that it gained FA status. Congratulation! Anyway, I'm suggesting that we change the article to Terminology of Macedonia. According to Naming convention and Misplaced Pages common practice, the current title implies that the article is about Macedonia, a field in the "science of terminology" or at least in linguistics (like in Plasma (physics)) whereas it is about the terminology of Macedonia (like Terminology of homosexuality). What do you think? CG 08:58, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Good thinking. Sounds good to me. Politis 11:31, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Terminology of homosexuality is about terms for several things, whereas this is (except for the table of ethnic terms at the bottom) overwhelmingly about "Macedonia". So Terminology for Macedonia might be better. Septentrionalis 17:09, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
I think that 'Terminology for Macedonia' indicates that there are different terms for the appelation 'Macedonia'. For instance, Terminology for Germanhy would mean: Allemagne, Germania, Tedesco, Deurschland; for United States it would be, Etats Unies, Inomenes Polities, Estados Unidos, etc... At least we agree that we can find something better than Macedonia (Terminology). Politis 16:55, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
You say that the word "terminology" is wrong for this article. So we have to change the current title. CG 17:18, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Proposals:

Feel free to add yours too. Also, how about Macedonian exterminology (sic)? :-) :NikoSilver: 13:53, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand how Terminology for Macedonia is different and I don't like Macedonian terminology. Read Terminology#Types of terminology: the article says that "terminology" might deal with a single term. Therefore you're definition above is wrong. CG 18:52, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
This is a pointless conversation. Systematic terminology deals with everything, so it might not be dealing with a single term. I am adding your proposal above, but really don't care which preposition we use. I still am not satisfied with the title, and wish someone comes up with a stunning idea. :NikoSilver: 21:21, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
What about Definition of Macedonia? CG 10:23, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Nice, but not super. It only includes geographical and political. I suggest we try harder to find a title that can include demographics, linguistics etc too. I wish I could come up with an idea...:NikoSilver: 11:38, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Geia sou file Niko, piasame kanena xtapodaki?, dino paron alla seira mou na leipo. Thinking of a new name; but one thing is certain, it will have to contain the term 'Macedonia' ;-). Politis 11:57, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Usage of Macedonia? Macedonia (term)? CG 13:10, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Macedonia (term): nice and simple! Politis 13:33, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

(maybe I should get a blog or something, but since we're brainstorming...) :NikoSilver: 14:39, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
No reasonable guy can doubt; Terminal Macedonology, one of the most obscure branches of knowledge!--Aldux 14:53, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Humour aside :-p , do we all agree on Macedonia (term) (or word) or it's just me and User:Politis? CG 07:45, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Ha ha, I'd actually prefer something without the annoying parentheses. Any ideas? :NikoSilver: 08:15, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Make your mind. I'll be out of proposals soon :-p CG 08:26, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I'd be reluctant to rush changing an unsatisfactory name to a less (?) unsatisfactory but not perfect one. The only change you and Politis propose is this: Macedonia (terminology). The word 'terminology' is more complete than the word 'term', because it does not restrict to 'Macedonia', but may include all other variations. Again, I think the most annoying part of the title is the parentheses, not the word 'logos' (or the ending '-logy'). I am not trying to be a wise-guy by rejecting a possible solution without providing an alternative, but I sincerely think we should all try harder. We have all the time in the world to make it perfect (without intermediate solutions). Ok CG? :NikoSilver: 08:49, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

For the record, from all the proposals above I'd distinguish these two:
Thoughts? :NikoSilver: 08:53, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm with Terminology of Macedonia. CG 10:03, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
I guess that would be a sensible stop-gap measure (like the name FYROM). :-) :NikoSilver: 10:49, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Personally, I'd prefer Definitions of Macedonia; I like the plural "definitions", as it gives the idea we're treating the complexity, without reducing it to une "term".--Aldux 20:57, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

More proposals:

I just thought they were sensible enough. I particularily like the first one (probably because the second one is kinda half-taken...):NikoSilver: 21:26, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

The two titles above (terminology and definitions) are better. Would you consider making a straw poll? CG 10:16, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Sure, that's what I had in mind. I'd like to see if there are more proposals though. I suggest we wait until Monday. :NikoSilver: 10:57, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Hey! We forgot a whole new category of names for this article: The antonyms! The article proves that Macedonia/n/s are ambiguous terms, and the end result (after you read all of it), is that you are still unable to understand what is meant if one says "Macedonia/n/s"!

So the fact is, that Macedonia/n/s IS ambiguous! Therefore, I suggest:

I like it more than any other option we've discussed. Please comment! :NikoSilver: 13:26, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

    • I like it, although as an anglophone, I am tempted by Seven Macedonias of Ambiguity, with a See Also to William Empson. ;-> Septentrionalis 16:28, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
      • I really like your proposal so much, that I wish this was not an encyclopedia! Unfortunately, the only problem is that it sounds too editorial...:NikoSilver: 17:14, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
        • No I disagree strongly with the word "Ambiguity". First it's too subjective. You might find this issue ambiguous and complex, but a connaisseur or historian will get it pretty easily. Also, the term is not amiguous for the groups mentioned in the article (Greeks, Maceonians, Bulgarians...) because they know and hang on only one definition of the term. And second, the title should be relevant but not too descriptive. Why not name Controversiality of the Arab-Israeli conflict, or Complexity of non-Euclidean geometry. And why not Clarification of the use of Macedonia, it's more welcoming for the reader? I'd go for the word "Terminology", because the word "Definition" doesn't suit the two sections "Names in the languages of the region" and "Terminology by group", and according to the Terminology article Terminology, in its general sense, simply refers to the usage and study of terms, and their is a type of terminology Ad hoc terminology, which deals with a single term or a limited number of terms. Nothing ambiguous ;) about this. CG 13:47, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
          • OK, I don't see how it relates to the present title being invalid, but since you asked, here goes: 'Ambiguity' is as subjective as 'Clarity' or 'Disambiguation of'. Actually, I feel that more users will agree it's still ambiguous, rather than being fully disambiguated with this (or any for that matter) article. For those in our neck of the woods, try being Greek and cooperating with (ahem, pardon my Greekness) Slavomacedonians. Also, why on earth should the title be not too descriptive? I've heard otherwise! Why not name it as you proposed? Sure, go ahead and add your proposals in the poll. Terminology article quote: You know, this article does "refer to the usage of terms" in/for/about/among Macedonia/n/s. Ergo? •NikoSilver• 12:51, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
          • On a lighter note, the subject is so controversial, we can't even agree on the article title! I suppose we're done with all proposals, and with the timeframe I had proposed for more, so here goes: •NikoSilver• 10:13, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Poll

Yada, yada, yada:

  • Only registered users are eligible to vote.
  • Users must have at least 50 edits until August 15th 2006.
  • Multiple votes are allowed.
  • Poll ends Tuesday September 12th 2006 midnight UTC.
  • Clear consensus (60%) is required.
    • In case none of the options reaches 60%, then the two prevailing options in votes will be put to an additional poll, which will last one more week.
    • In case none of the options reaches 60% after the second poll, then the first option in number of votes will be used as the article title, as a stop gap measure, but the title issue will be still debatable after a sensible period of time, which will be discussed by the participating users.
  • You may add additional proposals, if your preference is not listed below, by initiating a new heading.
  • Please refrain from commenting along with your vote, to facilitate poll process. Instead, post your comments right below in the '#Comments:' section for further discussion. Also, if you respond to any comment, kindly copy it below, and do it there.
  • Please indicate your preferred article title by signing with four tildes (~) below:

Macedonia (terminology)

Note: No change in title.

  1. FrancisTyers · 10:52, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
  2. Todor→Bozhinov 10:55, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
  3. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:00, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
  4. Hectorian 11:28, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
  5. Aldux 12:08, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
  6.   /FunkyFly.talk_  16:03, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
  7. FlavrSavr 22:56, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
  8. Acceptable, especially with pipe trick. Septentrionalis 21:01, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
  9. •NikoSilver• 12:05, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Terminology of Macedonia

Note: Other prepositions instead of 'of' should be included in this heading.

  1. FrancisTyers · 10:52, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Definition of Macedonia

  1. As with meaning, below, but I prefer meaning. Septentrionalis 21:05, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Ambiguity of Macedonia

Meaning of Macedonia

  1. Might actually occur in running text. Septentrionalis 21:05, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Comments:

In-line refs

Is it just my Firefox or is there actually some problem with the in-line refs? E.g., the link to the Pirin Macedonia endnote in the text says N-, but the endnote itself and the link from the {{Geographical Macedonia}} template insist on N-. Also, the endnote doesn't have like it's supposed to, but an arrow ↑ instead, so it doesn't seem to recognize the Pirin Macedonia link in the text for some reason (though the Pirin Macedonia link in the text does take me to the note, but when I click the arrow it goes to the template link).

On the other hand, the McCarthy, J. ref (#15) doesn't seem to recognize the one from {{Historical Macedonia}} and the arrow it has instead gets me back only to the link in the text.

The N- and N- links are OK, however. Todor→Bozhinov 11:51, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Todor, the templates are known for being dumb with the refs. As for the rest, there have been some additions/modifications. I didn't find any more mistakes. Kindly re-examine yourself. •NikoSilver• 12:04, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Dunno about the rest, but the issues with Pirin Macedonia and McCarthy, J. still stand :( Todor→Bozhinov 12:36, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Ok, fixed everything but McCarthy, J in template. Please check once more. It was quite tedious...•NikoSilver• 13:39, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Pirin Macedonia is fine now, thanks! :) Todor→Bozhinov 14:42, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Regional Macedonians

I have a question. In the demographic Macedonia table, the Greek Macedonians are cited as the only regional Macedonians. What about the Bulgarians? --Telex 12:53, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Do we have a ref that they self-id as 'Macedonians' too on a regional level? I bet we don't because it is quite confusing, since they may end up being thought of as these! •NikoSilver• 13:42, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Oh, and I am sure the same applies to Serbs and Albanians. Talking about ..."monopolization of the name and creation of semiological confusion, whilst violating the human rights and the right to self-determination of Greek Macedonians"... that surely extends to the Macedonian Albanians, Macedonian Serbs and Macedonian Bulgarians! What a mess! And all from a name, which is backed up by serious irredentist and nationalistic agenda! Quite disappointing... •NikoSilver• 13:49, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Yep, the Bulgarians do, there's even a stereotype — Macedonians are regarded as crazy, short-tempered freedom-loving brawlers :) There's even a commercial advertising a "Macedonian sausage" set in the late 19th/early 20th century during some uprising against the Ottomans, with voivods, etc. :D And people from Blagoevgrad Province are often regarded as regionally "Macedonians", there was a female pop folk singer from Sandanski in VIP Brother who was a stereotypical Macedonian and was often referred to as such.
Of course, Bulgarians are usually very careful with the word "Macedonian" since guys from the Republic of Macedonia tend to misappropriate everything that mentions it in some way without regard to what's meant. So sometimes people from Pirin Macedonia are called pirintsi ("Piriners") to avoid the reference to Macedonia.
You can cite this if you need a source for the Bulgarian Macedonian regional identity. Looks quite reliable. Todor→Bozhinov 14:30, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Ummm, I included it, but I am not sure that this is the source you've been looking for, Todor. Can you please point me to a specific paragraph? •NikoSilver• 22:32, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Well, here are some quotes:
  • "The Bulgarian state accepts the regional identity of the Pirin Macedonians, and treats them as belonging to the Bulgarian ethno-national group (Kanev, 1999b)."
  • "Due to historical reasons, some people in Pirin Macedonia see themselves as Macedonians. Besides Macedonians who have strong regional Macedonian feelings and Bulgarian national identity..."
  • "Thus, when one talks to a person who has a Macedonian regional and a Bulgarian national identity, s/he claims that the costumes, dances, and songs of the region are Bulgarian."
  • "Macedonians in Pirin Macedonia (similarly to the ones in Greece) are divided into three groups. The majority has a Bulgarian national identity and a Macedonian ethnic and/or regional identity."
  • "This fact raises the question about the degree to which Pirin Macedonian identity in today’s Bulgaria is in fact a national orientation, or is it a form of “ethno-regionalism,” like in the case of the Aegean Macedonians in Greece (Troebst, 1999b)." Todor→Bozhinov 13:59, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
By the way, we also need to reword the intro to reflect this:
“ Demographically, it is mainly inhabited by three ethnic groups, two all of which self-identify as Macedonians (in a certain sense?): A Slavic (Macedonian Slavic?) group does so at a national level, while a Greek and a Bulgarian one at a regional level. ”

Todor→Bozhinov 14:06, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Wow! See? Even I misinterpreted your source! With the name they chose, not only do they commit "...semiological confusion, whilst violating the human rights and the right to self-determination of Greek Macedonians...", but also that of Bulgarian Macedonians! This is a subject that needs further research, but the Bulgarian Macedonians (red for now -the field is yours) are definitely oppressed, since they cannot rightfully self-identify as "Macedonians", in fear of being confused with these! And, I repeat, all of that happens, because certain people promote a nationalistic agenda! Pitty, I don't see anybody here complaining about the rights of "self-determination" of the Bulgarian Macedonians or for that of the Greek Macedonians... All I see is people complaining about the rights of the Slavomacedonians! •NikoSilver• 15:05, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

As for the intro sentence, I propose:


“ Demographically, it is mainly inhabited by three ethnic groups, all of which self-identify as Macedonians: One Slavic group does so on a national level, while another Slavic group, Bulgarian Macedonians, and a Greek one, do so at a regional level. ”

I was reluctant to put more emphasis like:


“ Demographically, it is mainly inhabited by three ethnic groups, all of which self-identify as Macedonians: One Slavic group does so on a national level, while violating the right of self-determination of another Slavic group, Bulgarian Macedonians, and a Greek one, who do so at a regional level. ”

Salad? An understatement, definitely! •NikoSilver• 15:15, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Category: