Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 16:26, 12 September 2006

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Wikimood

Factoid

With regard to a certain fiery event I would like to draw you attention to a factoid that may have escaped your attention... The eteostichon "LorD haVe MerCI Vpon Vs" (L+D+V+M+C+I+V+V=1666) has been used in connexion with that place & year though I can not to trace it to its origins (some further research might be appropriate). Hope you'll have use for it. Happy editing, or vacationing, or cursing us all, or whatever you are enjoying doing right now. Ha det så bra, as they say elsewhere... 87.122.7.200 19:24, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

• I think the source for that was graffiti found on a wall during the plague, rather than the fire. It was a common enough thing for an age where the use of Latin was part of every educated person's baggage. Where, though, it entered modern currency is another matter. I, too, have encountered the reference. It's unlikely, therefore, that we can chalk it up to a ... nov.... Defoe? Journal of the Plague Year? Maybe that's the source. Geogre 20:14, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Dmitry Merezhkovsky's the Romance of Leonardo Da Vinci

As I lay there, my ears rattling with pain, somehow I still managed (when I got the lucid chance) to get half way through Dmitry Merezhkovsky's 500-page (how was I even able to carry it — well, thanks to my gentle care, it's now physically split into a few pieces, that's 1953 hardcover for ya!; I would have actually prefered softness under these circumstances) the Romance of Leonardo Da Vinci (oddly, the Hebrew translation I have is only titled Leonardo Da Vinci). Have you read it, Bishongeogre? Best, El_C 06:35, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Your ears are going to hurt some more today, dear Elsie. :-( Bishonen | talk 09:33, 5 September 2006 (UTC).

Grbrr. ElC is an abbreviation for El Commandante!; and you haven't answered the question! :( El_C 10:10, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh, have I read an actual book? Of course not. What do you think the Internet is for? Bishonen | talk 10:20, 5 September 2006 (UTC).

Why must you mock me, again. :( El_C 10:27, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Check out my wikimood. It compels me. Bishonen | talk 10:51, 5 September 2006 (UTC).

Yet he was red-baiting enough to support Hitler. Fucking idiot; traitor of the masses. Brilliant author, nonetheless. El_C 11:31, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Awesomeness Barnstar

		The Barnstar of Diligence
		Awarded to Bishonen for being the most consistent, thoughtful, sensible and levelheaded person I've encountered on WP. Anchoress 09:34, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Great Scott! Me? And here I feel like I'm spending more and more of my wikitime in a flap and a rage...! Thank you very much. Bishonen | talk 09:38, 5 September 2006 (UTC).

Pffft, trifling. I noticed you didn't do a flounce, you just took a break. Besides, you on a bad day are better than most editors on an average day. IMO. Anchoress 09:50, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Haha, how about now? Eh? Bishonen | talk 10:03, 5 September 2006 (UTC).

Oh yeah, you're outta control. 'Remove the Barnstar of Diligence; Attach the Barnstar of Intransigence!' Anchoress 10:08, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Your email

Yes, I did. Sorry for not replying, I am always useless at responding to Misplaced Pages emails. It's a bit of a crap situation for everyone concerned. I've been away from Misplaced Pages more or less for a few months and my first impression when I got back into it the other day was how angry so many people were... I'm starting to feel old with all these new admins running around slapping people down. The Land 09:54, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I didn't notice till now that you removed Daniel Bryant's original expression of his problem with my language use (Profanity? Profanity ? Fucking is a religion now?) in the form of a template. Cripes, what a low point. Thank you, The Land, for saving my eyes from beholding it. Bishonen | talk 19:02, 5 September 2006 (UTC).

You can delete this if you want.

		The Surreal Barnstar
		I hereby award you, Bishonen, the FuckWITtery Barnstar, for chutzpah in the face of asshattery. Anchoress 10:16, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

		The Surreal Barnstar
		I hereby award you, Bishonen, the Flapdoodle Barnstar, for chutzpah in the face of .. well... everything. The Land 10:47, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I hope this is considered "non-provacative"...

Please do not add profanities to WP:AN/I. I, in particular, find such language to to be offensive. Feel free to remove this comment if you change your use of certain phrases, such as f***wittery on WP:AN/I. Cheers, Daniel.Bryant 10:19, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not censored for the protection of minors. El_C 10:27, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

"Words and images that might be considered offensive, profane, or obscene by other Misplaced Pages readers should be used if and only if their omission would cause the article to be less informative, relevant, or accurate, and no equally suitable alternatives are available." I'm sure there is a number of alternatives to the term used by Bishonen. Also, that only refers directly to the article namespace - "Misplaced Pages cannot guarantee that articles or images are tasteful to all users or adhere to specific social or religious norms or requirements.". Daniel.Bryant 10:36, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Daniel, on the assumption that you really mind it, as opposed to merely looking for things to complain about, I will exchange if for some suggestion by wordsmyth.net. Bishonen | talk 10:42, 5 September 2006 (UTC).

Thank you. Feel free to scourge this section from your page as you see fit. Daniel.Bryant 10:44, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Please stop giving me permission to remove your comments. Do you really not see that that's provocative, in a discussion where my contention is that I can do as I please about that? Think about it. Btw, I don't habitually remove stuff from my page by any means. It takes a lot of inappropriateness before I'll do that. Bishonen | talk 10:50, 5 September 2006 (UTC).

I thought, from your comments, that you were the deletionist type. Sorry about the confusion. Daniel.Bryant 10:55, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I had a good laugh at fu*kwittery myself ;). Marskell 11:42, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

EE

Okay, sorry to bother you about this again (I'm sure you're as sick to death of this situation as I am), but EE's returned and is again edit warring at Cool (song) and quarreling on the related talk page. He first parachuted into the talk page yesterday claiming to be three different editors, none of whom were EE (really, how many Gwen Stefani/Shakira/Legend of Zelda fans edit Misplaced Pages?); having his bluff called, he's now gone back to reverting edits that I've justified and explained to death on the talk page (including rewriting his hopelessly ornate prose - apparently, according to him, "reminisces about" is preferable to "remembers"). I was wondering if this type of behaviour was covered by the ArbCom ruling on him, because I'm considering leaving a report at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement, but I'm not sure how these things work. Thanks. Extraordinary Machine 10:54, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Certainly it's covered. Amply. IMO you should ban him from the pages he disrupts, and then report on the enforcement page that you have done so. I suggest banning for two days, since it says "a week in case of repeat offenses" (a strangely feeble time indication, which sounds as if it's meant for blocks rather than bans). Don't forget to ban from the talk pages also, otherwise you might as well just semiprotect the articles. Now, to ban from a page means, as you know, to tell an editor that they're not allowed to edit it. I realize the problem there, since it's a cloud of IPs that needs to be told, but you'll just have to post a message on the talkpages of the IPs involved so far (obviously, there's no need to check whether each of the IPs has separately been disruptive, it's disruption by the individual that's at issue). And why not reinforce it by posting the message on the article talkpages also. Then report on the enforcement page. Then, if/when you find that the ban isn't respected, report that, semiprotect the articles, consider whether to semiprotect the talkpages also (but that is a very, very, awkward thing to have to do) or merely keep reverting the editor, and do what you can to block him, because that is also what a ban means: if it's not respected, you block. If you're not savvy with range blocks, appeal to the arbcom to help, ask them how long the block can be, post an appeal for range blocking or other clever technical solution on ANI, and ask somebody like Mackensen or Essjay directly.

Sorry to be telling you what to do it rather than do it myself, but I'm not dealing with Hollow Wilerding any more. I'm tired of it, I have better things to do, and it's not like my previous efforts have been appreciated. I don't need telling twice that I've "taunted" a sensitive user, or to have my friends threatened with banning for trying to help. It's somebody else's turn. (Don't you get involved than you can help, either, EM—just try to protect the pages you care about, that's what I think is worth doing.) Grrr, somebody award me a barnstar of self-pity, quickly! Bishonen | talk 12:15, 5 September 2006 (UTC).

(The Canadian school year began today or yesterday, and EE, who said he might come back in September, shows up in full plumage at the school library. Another academic year of fun and games. If we get the IP's, we can go straight to the librarian. This child is a mess. Geogre 12:46, 5 September 2006 (UTC) )

Thanks for responding. I completely understand that you're not going to deal with HW anymore; I'd do the same myself, but unfortunately we both worked on that specific article quite a bit. (Long story short: there was a big dispute involving myself and EE/Winnermario regarding the coverage of pop music on Misplaced Pages; I helped "save" the article from imminent FAC failure as my way of extending an "olive branch" to WM, and that gesture turned around and bit me soon enough.) Anyway, I thought I was too close to the dispute to place a ban myself, so I posted on Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement, and Bunchofgrapes has done it. I disagree with the idea of banning - or "cautioning" or otherwise - Giano for what he said to EE; his remark seemed rather harmless, particularly given the circumstances. I don't want a good editor like you to feel stressed, so here's a Zen Garden Award in honour of your "extraordinary patience in the face of toil or turmoil". This is well and truly deserved. Extraordinary Machine 13:01, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh—thanks very much—I only just saw this post. Very beautiful garden! (Have you seen my Zen wikimoods? :-)) Sorry for my conflicting messages, where I first declared I'd do nothing, and then blithely (or, rather, angrily), turned up on Bunchofgrapes's page to ban HW from it. I've sent you an e-mail about that. Bishonen | talk 18:28, 6 September 2006 (UTC).

ALoan

I've been out for a couple of hours, flicking arownd the watchlist, it looks like ALoan has done a runner in disgust with the Arb-com. Has he? of have I got the wrong end of the goat. I can't stand the thought of a wikipedia without ALoan, he's like you and Geogre - part of the furniture. I'm berieved, we are all bereived tell me , please, I have it wrong. Giano | talk 12:58, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid you have it right. :-( I hope he'll be back. You know he was very, and uncharacteristically, angry about the proposed ban of you in the EE case, too. And notice the dickish commentary about him on the RFA talkpage, by people who don't know him? I just told Werdna on IRC... well, never mind what I told him, maybe I'll post it on the wiki as well, but I have to go out now. Bishonen | talk 13:21, 5 September 2006 (UTC).

I did see the comments about him by by some people who do not know him, and forced myself for once not to press save, otherwise i probably would have been banned for obscenities. his email won't work either. This is terrible. BTW is that D Bryant allowed to keep fiddling with my archives, because he's changed his mind over his daft template, I though people were not supposed to tamper with archives. Can I revert him? Anyhow I'm now more upset about ALoan than anyhthing else since Giano | talk 13:30, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, I suppose you can revert him, but it would be pretty ungracious. All he's doing, that I can see, is removing stuff he posted himself—striking through it, so that the archive is still complete, and still contains everything that was posted on your page—and apologising. I wouldn't revert that if I were you. On the other hand, if I've missed him messing with anybody else's posts (=yours), then, yes, it would be appropriate to revert. Bishonen | talk 16:30, 5 September 2006 (UTC).

• If I want to be iformed at all, I need to come here. Another example of how badly uniformed I am: I didn't even know he was that upset. ALoan is one of the cornerstones of the serious content folks. Heck, he passed me in terms of contributions. For every one serious article I write, he has about four that are smaller and nimbler but as good. Geogre 17:49, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Informing: the discussion is mostly taking place at Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for adminship. It has, of course, become poisonous. If we blocked for genuine disruption, rather than for "defiant and inflammatory" responses, we should have considered blocking the 'crats before they could make this disruptive choice. I am another one of those who have been contemplating the ideas of turning in my bit or walking away. I recognize that I am currently too angry to make such decisions rationally, or do anything much useful at all. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 18:13, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Look I know I leave and come back ten minutes later, but that's cos I'm foreign and have a foreign temperament, you lot can't do that cos you're not foreign (well Bishonen is but she's from a rational race) and if you leave you might not come back - if you follow my logic, and that's why I'm upset about ALoan cos he's anglosaxon too like you yanks, allthough some of you do have funny surnames like that Monica Lewinski, but I always though she seemed a nice enough girl too Giano | talk 18:21, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

You know how come I'm still here? I'm terribly uniformed. I don't look. If I close my eyes, put my fingers in my ears, and hum very loudly, I can pretend things are operating. Then, when I see this stuff, I can scream at the pinheads for being pinheads. I regret to say that I'll probably look at the talk:RFA, and I regret the regret I'm going to feel for looking. (Giano's Italian. You guys know what those people are like. We Anglo-Saxons are all cheerful and happy, and then we start dropping nuclear bombs while saying, "See what you made me do?") Geogre 18:40, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, and you bombed Palermo! Have I ever told you about my Great Aunt Rosaria's wartime experience with a American GI? Giano | talk 18:44, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm of the bork bork bork people. We smoulder. Bishonen | talk 18:48, 5 September 2006 (UTC).

Yes dear quite, as I was saying this GI who was also a very close friend of my mother (chocolate and stockings were in short supply you see) well he was from Idaho, well isn't that an almost supernatural co-incidence, cos I'be always felt this eerie bond to BoG, and my first words were "Yes siree" which is unusual in a Sicilian baby - these things cannot be explained. Giano | talk 19:05, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Well aren't you the chipper gentile today, Giano? I almost feel like rising to the bait and actually being so dense as to protest that I am from Oregon, but surely I wouldn't. In any case, I'm pretty sure I'm not your real father. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 21:13, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Only "pretty" sure I note - could there be a chance? If it's not you who is it —Giano | talk 21:16, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

OK, I can't keep up with all this. But it is all making me very depressed. Paul August ☎ 21:20, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Why - are you from Idaho too? — Giano | talk 21:24, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Sheesh, it's Super Friends talk page blanking day. Mine is full of stuff, because I figure a real sign that I've left will be that no one will be able to tell the difference. Geogre 21:57, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

On second thoughts, moving this response down to where The Land may actually see it

The Land, I didn't notice till now that you removed Daniel Bryant's original expression of his problem with my language use ("Profanity"? "Profanity" ? Fucking is a religion now?) in the form of a template. Cripes, what a low point. Thank you, The Land, for saving my eyes from beholding it. Bishonen | talk 19:02, 5 September 2006 (UTC).

LOL. Yes, I saw it and thought that, while removing comments from him to you was moderately impolite, it would be much more impolite to make him clean up the bits of exploded Bishonen from the walls. ;-) The Land

User:Giano's talk page

I'm sorry but that level of extreme incivility is never excusable. I've reverted once, and will not do so again. I beg you not to restore that disgusting, petty, malicious message. --Tony Sidaway 22:46, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't edit war. Bishonen | talk 22:48, 5 September 2006 (UTC).

There is no policy that allows the removal of "personal attacks" without archiving them. In case no one has figured it out, yet, that idiotic "NPA" is at the heart of all of these crises. More fools are conned every day into believing that there is a policy that says that people are blocked or banned for saying impolite things, that they can redact each other over it, etc. User talk pages are the business of the users to tend, one way or the other. Geogre 01:27, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Good Lord, Tony, listen to yourself! "Extreme incivility, disgusting, petty, malicious"?! Oh, really? I'd hate to hear what you would call something that is actually disgusting and malicious. And even if it were, don't you remember what your mother told you? "Sticks and stones can break your bones, but incivility will never hurt you." I'll tell you what around here is really disgusting, petty, and malicious: Censorship, like you just did to did. Askolnick 02:51, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Can I just point out my beautiful banner in fact says: "may not receive respect they feel they deserve". "May" expresses no certainty, and "they feel" implies they will receive respect but perhaps will not be called Sir/madam or whatever it that is what they feel they deserve. Giano | talk 06:33, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I've changed my banner now, because I am so frightened. Accusing me of "disgusting, petty, malicious message" Surely that is a personal attack on me, cos the meassage was not so. Can't he be banned for that? Giano | talk 08:11, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Most amusing, Giacomo. Hey, your long post on your own page—response to Askolnick etc—is absolutely great! Clarifies a lot of stuff beautifully. Bishonen | talk 08:26, 6 September 2006 (UTC).

Thanks Sweatheart, on the other matter pleasywaesyweedlingpleasy pretty please? Giano | talk 08:28, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

What other matter? Blocking Tony Sidaway..? You are kidding. You won't catch me blocking for personal attacks, even if that was one, which I doubt (see how it's an attack on your message, not on you?). I fully endorse Geogre's remarks about "that idiotic 'NPA'" above. Some people may think you're serious if you go on like that, you know! Bishonen | talk 08:39, 6 September 2006 (UTC). P.S., but if you're frightened, don't worry, dear, I'll protect you! Bishonen | talk 08:41, 6 September 2006 (UTC).

• What other matter? Bishonen!!!! My marriage proposal! Have you forgoten it already - I'm devestated. The pink solitaire, well I shall keep it now! Giano | talk 08:45, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

• You'll have to take that up with Elsie, we're just setting the date. But if there's a vacancy in your harem, hmmm.... I have to admit I'm intrigued. Bishonen | talk 08:49, 6 September 2006 (UTC).

Oh him! The creature from the Fjiords (or whatever bogs are called in those parts) You don't want a honemoon in my Villa Splendido overlooking Como? Running your fingers trough my silkient chest wig that is up to you - I wash my hands of you. Giano | talk 09:06, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

ALoan II

Seen this It's quite humbling to read, and I'm not going to spoil the stark simplicity by posting underneath it, but I hope it's read and taken on board in many high ranking quarters of this encyclopedia. Giano | talk 11:18, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Ditto. If a naive and befuddled newcomer may be permitted an observation: the administrative war now raging against "incivility" reminds me of the Vietnam war general who explained the U.S. war strategy as "destroying the village to save it." The biggest threat to civility in Wikinam is not the hot-headed posts of angry editors. It's the cold, calculating intollerance of criticism and dissent. Just as the U.S. policy sought to label Vietnam nationalism as "communist expansionism," certain administrative warlords are attempting to label dissent and criticism as "incivility." If they continue, they just may save the village by destroying it.Askolnick 12:19, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Well don't give up on the place, there are a lot of good admins here, who are in command of huge respect by not expecting it. The admins who hang out on this page for instance. Sadly people seem to be confusing brusqueness, and direct speaking for incivility, and a lot of people seem surprised when their own incivil or bizarre actions lead to incivility in response. It's a problem and it's not going away. Incidentally if you are new, you won't know that ALoan is in my view one of Misplaced Pages's most respected editors because of his contributions and impecable manners. Giano | talk 12:32, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

If I may butt in, I've been thinking about this issue recently too, and I think in part it can be attributed to the phenomenon of the cure causing more of the disease, or rather the remedy causing more of the problem. The same way that a 1-800 number at a vacuum company will prompt way more people to call for help instead of reading the manual, and that some people believe bar brawls and shootings outside nightclubs would decrease if cities reduced police patrols and instead paid people to hand out free flowers at closing time, I think admin intervention (of a certain type) is escalating the incivility and conflict. Perhaps there should be a civility patrol, of people who are especially gentle souls, who can post genial, non-threatening warnings/suggestions on the talk pages of people who have been accused of incivility; the lack of 'threat' associated with a warning from an admin might de-escalate as well as, but less invasively than, the cooldown blocks currently in use.

But in fact I think the problem is bigger, and regrettably I think it's because of the way the site is run. I'm not a dictator, but I think the lack of hard-and-fast regulations makes it very stressful for the people who shoulder the responsibility of helping the site run smoothly. I've seen many instances here recently (and I've seen this a lot in RL too) where people with authority and responsibility, or even just a sense of responsibility come to the community and say something isn't working, and 'the community' says in its wisdom that no, it is working, everyone (like Animal Farm) just has to work harder, but it is in fact the ones asking for a change who are doing all the work. I see this most blatantly over requests to lock pages due to vandalism. There are a lot of people who just get fed up with WP because they can't stand to watch vandalism happen without doing something about it, but they're too pooped to keep up with aggressive cells. IMO there are several key deficiencies in the way the community is run that are directly causing burnout, and I'm not trying to deflect responsibility from the admins people have been discussing, but I think the recent behaviour is, if not burnout, a result of a deficiency in the community's order. Anchoress 12:48, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Giano. What really gets me is the hypocricy of the administrative warlords whose censorship and threats are anything but civil. Have they no capacity for self-inspection? Or is the enforcement of civility just a guise for self-aggrandizement or power grabbing? Askolnick 12:55, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

YES!!!!! Bishonen | talk 12:58, 6 September 2006 (UTC).

• <conflict>::::* I think Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents is probably the place to continue this discussion, but the way things are at the moment we will probably all be banned, so I'm shutting up (a new experience for me). Giano | talk 13:01, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

From the perspective of a long-time journalist, if this fight continues to escalate, it will soon get the attention of reporters who cover science, education, the Internet, and the media. Wiki's problems have already drawn much news coverage. It seems to me that Wiki's Civil(ity) War is going to be the next headline maker. Askolnick 13:30, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Carnildo got promoted anyway? That's insane! Everyone else needs 75-80% approval. I guess you don't if two members of ArbCom vote for you. To promote him anyway is not simply a question of changing the goalposts, but intentionally throwing scorn on an enormous number of people who voted against him. It's not just a reward for him: it's a statement that the others should not be heard. It may indeed be time for a no confidence motion or for leaving. Geogre 17:06, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

You didn't know? I tried to inform you, up there somewhere yesterday. ALoan's latest written statements mirror my thoughts well enough. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 17:15, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Good heavens, Geogre, now you notice? Bishonen | talk 18:03, 6 September 2006 (UTC).

• Is it possible to call for votes of no confidence in the arb-com? Giano | talk 18:13, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Not that I know of, but it's an elective position, so you can do what you think is right when the time comes. Newyorkbrad 18:57, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

No I'm far too urbane and lazy to man a barricade, I may get shot or banned Giano | talk 19:01, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps, if I don't see another FAC from you by the weekend, I'll nominate you for ArbCom.... Newyorkbrad 19:32, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Mail

It's your lucky night!!! I've just proposed agian......Lothario

OK, dear. Bishonen | talk 19:36, 6 September 2006 (UTC).

RfArb comment

This is marvelous stuff, Bish. Everybody should go read it, now. You get a sundae. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 19:57, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Wow, thanks, Grapey! A sundae is just what I could do with. You deserve a nice bunch of grapes! Here you are. Bishonen | talk 20:04, 6 September 2006 (UTC).

Talk about coals to Newcastle! Newyorkbrad 20:05, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, it's just not fair! It's like eating my own head. Sadly I can't quickly find a free Bishōnen image and turn the tables. :-) —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 20:15, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Hello there, small Sicilia. G'como, I hope you know that when I said you're annoying, I did mean you 're annoying. Bishonen | talk 20:51, 6 September 2006 (UTC).

bzzzz bzzzzzzz, sting Giano | talk 20:55, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Well said Bishonen, you eloquent bugger! :-) --Mcginnly | Natter 14:26, 7 September 2006 (UTC) (A brit)

Thank you, Mcginnly, that's very flattering. Don't worry about the "Brit" thing, I always say the project must have room for everybody! :-P As for b...bugger..., uh, there's something wrong with it, but I'll save my maidenly blushes, and perhaps yours, by not explaining what. (Hint: you can always check my userpage.) Bishonen | talk 16:09, 7 September 2006 (UTC).

Oh no....This may help

Oh no, you're in a bad mood. This will help:

		The da Vinci Barnstar
		I'm awarding this to you for your efforts to make Misplaced Pages better and for your much valued assisstance to me. Martial Law

Hope this helps. After all you've been of great assissstance to me many times. Martial Law 00:56, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

By the way, Bish, Welcome Back. Martial Law 00:57, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

HELLO!!!

Oh, it is NICE to hear from one of my favorite people on this poor ol' site!! Thank you so much for making me feel welcome. I swear that I thought I'd be run off of Misplaced Pages on a rail. The reception I've gotten is truly appreciated. I can't tell you how much yours means to me. - Lucky 6.9 02:45, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

It was lovely to see your page finally turn up on my watchlist, Lucky! Where have you been? Bishonen | talk 09:59, 7 September 2006 (UTC).

Ghirlandajo

Your participation would be welcome at User talk:Grafikm fr#Ghirlandajo. --Ideogram 05:08, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

You know, I think I've just stumbled on the root of the problem here . Giano | talk 07:02, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Please explain how that is the root of the problem. --Ideogram 07:12, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Never mind, the problem appears to have solved itself. --Ideogram 08:00, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

What's got into people

Hi Bish, Suddenly, everyone has a right not to be offended? I don't get it. When I arrived, it was only a handful of newbies who cared what people said and thought about them. Suddenly, who said what first and better take it back or else is all I see. Is it just that I'm spending more time on people's talk pages? Or is the encyclopedia finished and it's time to lock all the pages and send everyone home? It seems that improving the encyclopedia has reached the point of diminishing returns, and the politics is becoming more important than the outcome. Sigh. Ben Aveling 08:06, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Ben. Yes, the encyclopedia is done, now comes the next great project: the civility drive. I propose upgrading the RFA process by requiring all admin candidates to take this simple test:

You block a person for Personal Attacks and write them a block message.

1. Do you call them a) by their name, b) "asshole", c) "my friend"?
2. Which of these phrases would you use to announce the block: a) you have been blocked, b) you have been given a time-out, c) I'm giving you an opportunity to reflect?
3. Which of these policies/guidelines would you recommend to the blockee? a) WP:NPA, b) WP:AGF, c) WP:CIVIL?

   That was a trick question, you must recommend all of them. Here's the real question: when you recommend these pages, would you use the verb a) to see, b) to review, c) to get a load of?

4. Do you tell them that they are welcome to contribute as long as they remain civil? a) sure, and also that I'm trying to help them contribute more constructively, b) hell no, c) yes.
5. You should mention their attitude. Do you tell them it needs a) fixing, b) improvement, c) adjustment?
6. In this space, add your own suggestions for helpful things to say: ...............................

For a perfect score, the correct answers are c, c, b, a, c. Note that 1b is very bad, go away and try again next year. 5b is somewhat acceptable. One good answer for question 6 would be "This is not a punishment", but it is hoped that you will be creative.

Bishonen | talk 16:09, 7 September 2006 (UTC).

Oh, this is useful. In fact I just blocked someone for personal attacks. Let me take some notes and head over there. "Adjusment"... hmm... "opportunity to reflect..." good... what about WP:NOT a battlefield, can I use that? —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 16:28, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh, wow, I'd forgotten you're Mr Stern Administrator. WP:NOT is only to be used for the toughest nuts. You know, people lacking in full public repentance even after they've been branded and shamed on ANI. Your real problem users. Bishonen | talk 16:49, 7 September 2006 (UTC).

Got it. You know me, I never actually block for NPA. My NPA blocks are usually shorthand for "You appear to be in the middle of an angry rampage and determined to get yourself indef'd, maybe just maybe if I get my short block in first, I can keep that from happening." —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 17:10, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Liked this one: (after some difs...) "I don't know what rule this breaks, but I hope it is clear this attitude cannot be tolerated". Would that score some points on your upgraded RFA test? Read it a bit before your (Bishonen) Ghirlandajo statement, which I - like other people I see below - liked even more.--Van helsing 12:06, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Van Helsing, indeed, the author of that would ace such a simple test. Here's some more of his incisive logic: edit summary here edit summary here, discussion here. He's a WP:CABAL mediator, I bet he's good at it. Oh, and all compliments gratefully swallowed whole. Bishonen | talk 18:12, 8 September 2006 (UTC).

(outdenting) Is that sarcasm? I was going to leave this conversation alone, but since you seem to be talking about me I might as well join in. Just to be absolutely clear: are you criticizing me for being uncivil? --Ideogram 04:07, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't know about Bishonen, but I know that I would never criticize you for being uncivil. Could I get blocked for thinking it? Askolnick 05:08, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Ideogram: yes, I am. I apologize for doing it indirectly like this. I was going to criticize you on your own page, but when I got there you had archived the offending material, so I meant to let it slide. Apparently I couldn't resist blowing off a little steam when a visitor quoted you. It would obviously have been better to explain my problem to you directly, and I'll do that now, if you like. Or archive this thread, as you archived material I assume you had some regrets about. Let me know which you'd prefer. Bishonen | talk 11:11, 9 September 2006 (UTC).

I'm quite happy to talk to you about it. My main issue is, why are you defending Ghirlandajo's right to be "annoying" while criticizing me for doing the same thing? Note also that I was more bothered by Ghirlandajo's tendency to revert-war while refusing to discuss. --Ideogram 14:27, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't talking about that but about this; I haven't studied your revert wars, and have no opinion about them. What concerned me was seeing you post edits like these, and to insist, when reproached, on a sandbox analogy with Ghirlandajo ("he did it, so I'm gonna do it!"), to "prove" your "right" to make unprovoked insults and to triumphantly announce that you intend to go on giving people "a taste of their own medicine". I blinked in surprise when I read that. We've met before, and it wasn't what I expected from you. The best thing you can do to promote civility on the site is to lead by example, not level down to make a point. Also, about your analogy, please consider that you have pretensions that Ghirlandajo doesn't: to be a guardian of civility, to lecture others on it, to be a mediator (if you still do that, I don't know). Especially for those roles, your first concern should be your own civility—to be civil always, including to people who speak brusquely to you. I was going to make these points on your page but refrained when I saw you had archived your reply to Giano so it wasn't visible any more—I assumed/hoped that you'd started to regret it. Bishonen | talk 17:20, 9 September 2006 (UTC).

I don't understand why you say I have pretensions. I'm just saying that we should all obey the same rules, so if you are going to excuse Ghirlandajo for being uncivil, you certainly shouldn't criticize me for the same thing. Either being uncivil is bad or it isn't. I would certainly prefer it if everyone was civil, but I'm not about to make the effort if other people don't. --Ideogram 21:12, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

My apologies for interjecting into your private conversation, but in my view we certainly should all obey the same rules - that is, follow accepted norms of civil, rational discourse. Are you seriously suggesting that the proper response to someone who you think is uncivil, is to be uncivil back? We will end up in the land of the blind men, where no-one can see, that way (and heaven help our article on elephants then). Being uncivil is bad; being deliberately uncivil as a response to perceived incivility in others is worse. If you are finding it an effort to be civil (as an increasing number of people seem to recently, whether by accident or design), may I suggest that you count to ten, take a deep breath of fresh air, and consider whether you really want to be uncivil. (If nothing else, if someone else is being uncivil, then being icily polite back throws their incivility into higher relief, and may shame them into tempering their behaviour.) -- ALoan (Talk) 21:44, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Interject all you want to, ALoan, it's not a conversation any more as my part of it is over in any case. I've said my say, I don't see any advantage in repeating it with variations. Bishonen | talk 21:48, 9 September 2006 (UTC).

Well since you made it clear you are disappointed in me, I hope you don't mind if I say I am disappointed in you for being unwilling to discuss it. --Ideogram 21:54, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

All I want is for you people who are defending Ghirlandajo to admit that it is bad for him to be uncivil. Do we agree on that? --Ideogram 21:48, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Of course it is bad for anyone to be uncivil. But what you find uncivil, I and others may not. It is incumbent on every editor to make reasonable efforts to try to avoid others perceiving incivilty in what they say and do, but I can't help it if you take umbrage at my always-reasonable comments and actions :) -- ALoan (Talk) 22:05, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

In that case I'll continue. Oh, yes, we're agreed on that. My position isn't that incivility should be condoned or approved, it's that incivility should not be so eagerly sanctioned: RFAR'd, RFC'd, or (especially) blocked. It's not the case that everything that's not sanctioned is all right. Now, your statement that "If he doesn't get sanctioned, neither will I" seems to say that as long as you don't get sanctioned for it, it's all right to be uncivil. I don't think that at all. Did you notice I complained, in my RFAR statement, of Ghirlandajo's incivility to me? Did you notice he apologized? (Answer: yes, you did, you even mentioned it and praised him for it.) Do I see any signs of you apologizing to Giano and Pan Gerwazy? (Answer: no, I don't.) See how your analogy works both ways? And a final question: if you were to apply for adminship, would you like to see people quote some of these things you've been saying here back to you? Like for instance "I would certainly prefer it if everyone was civil, but I'm not about to make the effort if other people don't"? See, that's wrong-headed and petulant and rankly against Misplaced Pages policy. Bishonen | talk 22:09, 9 September 2006 (UTC).

I had never seen Ghirlandajo apologize before, which is why I made a special note of it and as a result recommended the RFAr be dropped. That really was my problem with Ghirlandajo, that he never seemed to admit that incivility was a problem. He was always assuming the problem was something else.

Apologizing is an extraordinary act, not something that can be required of people. I hope you agree with that. I never would have said "Ghirlandajo must be forced to apologize", forced insincerity is pointless. The fact that Ghirlandajo decided to apologize on his own is what makes it sincere and extraordinary. I might go so far as to say the fact that he apologized shows he can be a better man than I, and I respect him for it.

Now that we agree that incivility is undesirable, the next question is how can we discourage it? ALoan suggested above that we set an example by continuing to be civil. Do you think I didn't try that? What do you think was the result? Do you really think I should keep trying something that doesn't work?

Going to Arbcom is not a good solution, but we tried everything else. Certainly if Ghirladajo left Misplaced Pages it would have been bad for Misplaced Pages, but the question is whether that is worse than people avoiding him and letting him rule his little fiefdom of articles. Ultimately that's a decision only the Arbcom can make.

You should note that we agree on almost all the major issues. We agree that Ghirlandajo's civility is undesirable. We agree that Ghirlandajo has improved of late, and as a result the RFAr should be dropped. As far as I can tell we only disagree on one tactic, my allowing myself to express my true feelings (resulting in incivility) in order to make a point.

It may not have been the best tactic to choose, but I was in fact getting very frustrated and didn't know what else to do. We are all human, and ultimately the only way to work beyond our mistakes is to assume good faith and discuss things. Before I was concerned because Ghirlandajo seemed to refuse to discuss anything. Now that he is more amenable, I welcome him to Misplaced Pages.

As for adminship, if someone were so deluded as to nom me, I would gently decline and suggest they seek counselling. --Ideogram 22:27, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I will also add that by being deliberately incivil in an effort to get people to admit that incivility is bad (duh), you are not only violating WP:CIVIL yourself but also WP:POINT. Yet note carefully that we are discussing this with you, not blocking you or hauling you before arbcom. Sometimes the best thing to do is tell someone you are disappointed with their behavior and leave it at that. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 22:12, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

"Makt är icke blott makt, utan också ansvar"

The idea of blocking an editor one finds abrasive in order to give him/her "time to cool down" or an "opportunity" for introspection or whatever (a notion also mooted in the recent User:Giano debacle) seems to me to be mere Newspeak, and just about equally patronizing as planting officious warning templates on established users. Did anybody ever improve in civility, let alone introspection, by being talked down to in this way?

Thank you for writing this. *fanboys you* Haukur 09:28, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

/me blushes, then basks. Bishonen | talk 09:59, 7 September 2006 (UTC).

I think tha admin in question poor nobody in particular was a little inexperienced and probably in need of some coaching, but I have forgiven her in true christian spirit, she was probably just badly advised. Giano | talk 16:20, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks

I just wanted to say Thank you! for trying to get people to understand the difference between criticism and incivility. It astounds me how many editors are willing to shout "trolling!" or "personal attack" whenever they read something they don't like. I thought all adults could tell the difference, but perhaps not. Anyway, I see little hope of the culture changing here, but thanks for trying to get people to see the light. Friday (talk) 14:34, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, Friday, you thought correctly. All adults can. Askolnick 14:58, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Friday, yes, it's very worrying, a real danger IMO. :-( You should get Geogre on the subject — one of the few wikiculture aspects where he and I think exactly alike. Bishonen | talk 16:09, 7 September 2006 (UTC).

Question

Forgiva me, I notta spika too gooda inglise, but I was just been reading an Evylyn Waugh, modern review and read that Mr Samgrass is an anorak. Have you any idea what an anorack is? (yes, I know it is a horrible cheap nylon coat, but apparently it is idiomatically something else - what? Giano | talk 17:51, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Response by changing the spelling and blueing the link. You may now click on it. The explanation is at the end of the article. Bishonen | talk 17:57, 8 September 2006 (UTC).

Oh how very clever you are, I'd never have thought of that, he was a nasty old toady wasn't he? Giano | talk 18:02, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I didn't know there were train spotters back in Evelyn Waugh's days. Tupsharru 18:10, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I rather think it just meant he was boring dull and very tiresome. Sebastian and Charles certainly though so, I recall Giano | talk 18:14, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

The OED defines this in its additions from 1997:

2. slang (derog.). A boring, studious, or socially inept young person (caricatured as typically wearing an anorak), esp. one who pursues an unfashionable and solitary interest with obsessive dedication. Also attrib."

But the oldest attestation it provides is from the Observer 1984: "At weekends boatloads of Dutch 'anoraks' — pirate radio fans — come out to cheer on their latest hero." (The OED has no example specifically mentioning train spotters, but they would seem to fit right in.) Waugh's use would then be several decades earlier. I wonder if it would be original research to add it to the article? Tupsharru 08:19, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Probably best not Tuppy, avoid controversy has always been my wiki-motto Giano | talk 08:33, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Er. I took Giano to be saying above that he saw the word in a modern review? Not in the novel. I'm also having a hard time imagining that the OED would have missed such an early first use, and by Evelyn Waugh yet. Bishonen | talk 10:59, 10 September 2006 (UTC).

The same review also refers to Lady Bracknell as "a busy old bezum" I wonder what exactly a bezum is? Giano | talk 11:04, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Snort. I take it the old attention span is better suited for reviews than novels? Bishonen | talk 11:27, 10 September 2006 (UTC).

Personal attack! Personal attack! (Now, where do we have the correct scary template to use?) I guess I misread Giano's Sicilian accent. On the other hand, I have pushed OED's 1923 first attestation for "diploma mill" back 42 years, to an article in the The Brooklyn Daily Eagle from 1881. (Not that anyone will ever notice, as that article will probably never be finished.) But Waugh is perhaps less likely to have been overlooked by the OEDitors than an article in a minor paper in one of the former colonies. Tupsharru 11:36, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Could you do me a favour

Hi Bishonen, could you do me a small admin favour please? I once had a user subpage, User:LukasPietsch/GreekPhonology. I had it deleted at some point by my own request but stupidly forgot to keep a copy offline. Now someone told me they would like to see it. Could you please undelete it for me? Thanks! Lukas 19:15, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

As Bishonen's latest stalker talk-page watcher, I noticed this request and undeleted. Perhaps this lacks that personal touch, but at least your page is back. Friday (talk) 19:18, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks a lot! That was quick! Lukas 19:21, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Heh heh. Page has become self-administering. Cool. :-) Bishonen | talk 21:11, 8 September 2006 (UTC).

Research

I've just been researching this I wonder how much longer we all have to keep accepting these decisions before something is done about it. Giano | talk 16:05, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi Giano, I don't know where the conversation was when you referenced it, but at the moment it looks like it's reaching a sensible conclusion? No-one is stopping anyone else from enforcing the arbcom ruling, and no-one is rushing to enforce it. Regards, Ben Aveling 06:02, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Seems to me it was an ill thought out solution in the first place. Giano | talk 07:46, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Pretty much everyone adding to the discussion seems to agree with that. I'm not aware of the user's history, so I'm leaving it alone. Regards, Ben Aveling 07:49, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Topic for discussion

Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Warren_Kinsella/Proposed_decision ... Read the proposal and comments on proposed principle no. 3 and discuss quietly among yourselves. Newyorkbrad 23:30, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

The ol' subtlety

Long time and all...

I'm trying to work on expanding subtlety again by using the links suggested by an anon user some time ago. I could use some etymology information. Could you check the OED entry and paste it in at talk:subtlety? I know you handed it to me, like, ages ago on IRC, but I naturally forgot to write it down.

Peter 10:23, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Sho hun. Bishonen | talk 12:23, 11 September 2006 (UTC).

Much oblige, dear.

Peter 13:03, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

CSICOP vandalism

Hi -- thought I'd let you know that an anon vandalized CSICOP; looks to me as if a checkuser to see if this is Davkal would be warranted. I'm at work and can't wend my way through the policies to figure out whether and how to post the request, but I'll do that this evening if you don't have time to look at it. If it is indeed Davkal, I think his block needs to go up to a month; after the Leonovski incident he can no longer plead ignorance of sockpuppet policy. Mike Christie (talk) 14:08, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Although there are some similarities (such as use of obscenities in vandalizing articles on skeptics), I don't think this is Davkal. However, he needs some serious blocking - his talk page is littered with warning notices and at least one block for his ongoing vandalism attacks . Askolnick 15:33, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I've filed the request—learn a new trick every day, that's my motto. :-) Serious blocking of anons is difficult, but I asked CheckUser to also tell me if this one is reasonably stable (as the pattern of vandalism suggests). Bishonen | talk 16:34, 11 September 2006 (UTC).

Looks like you were right, Askolnick. The IP is blockable all right, but registered to the New York State Dept of Transportation. Wrong part of the world for a Gary Glitter fan. Bishonen | talk 16:55, 11 September 2006 (UTC).

Hey man, I know my kooks, cranks, and cornballs. :-\ Good detectiving, Bishonen. Time to erect a permanent roadblock on that Dept. of Transport. IP address. Meanwhile, I've got my eye on another Vandal at the gates; this one just wiped out a bunch of criticism from the Deepak Chopra article. Not the same Vandal, I'm sure, but clearly from the Woo-woo tribe.Askolnick 17:33, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

The Erich Heller article which you moved from mainspace to userspace in May/06

Hello Bishonen - On May 19, after discussing the matter with User:Charles_Matthews, you moved the article on Erich Heller to User:Prof02/Erich Heller so that User:Prof02 could work on the article with minimal intervention by other editors. At the time, Charles Matthews called the move a "short term solution" and proposed returning to this "in the not-too-distant future." Time has slipped by, and Misplaced Pages has now been without an article on Erich Heller for 4 months. Meanwhile Prof02 has produced a still rough but very long (161 kb) draft in his userspace, written in the florid, editorializing manner which you and Charles tried to discourage. I dropped him what I thought was a civil note, suggesting that he should release the article back into public user space, but he says he has no "deadline" and may even choose to delete the whole thing in the end. I'm not sure that he appreciates that he is not simply writing from scratch but was entrusted with an article that was already in the main encyclopedia. Perhaps it is time for you to consider reinstating the May 19/2006 version of the Erich Heller article in the public pages. You could even protect the public Erich Heller article, if you think Prof02 is really going to come up with something usable. But until he does, Misplaced Pages users should find something (even if only the May 19/2006 locked-down version) when they search on "Erich Heller." - WikiPedant 05:18, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I totally agree, WikiPedant, especially since we seem to be still waiting for the user's promised mellowing-out (hello there, Tupsharru). And especially since the latest comment from the professor is that he may need another four years (!). I'll see if I can figger how to move the pre-prof version complete with its history into article space. Then the user can go on editorializing in his userspace ad infinitum, at least as far as I'm concerned; I don't see what harm it does. (I don't see what use it is, either, but perhaps it's time to stop expecting it). Bishonen | talk 16:26, 12 September 2006 (UTC).

Bio infoboxes

Hi, I remeber that you were opposed to bio infoboxes, I was wondering if you'd care to chime in on the irrelevance of this monster. Thanks. --Peta 06:47, 12 September 2006 (UTC)