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From SledDogAC

The information I have added to the webpages is all correct and verifiable. I have provided documentation for what I write, in sharp contrast to AKMask's edits. AKMask doesn't want wikipedia to be neutral. This person has an a pro-Iditarod, pro-musher agenda that he or she only wants the public to know. If wikipedia wants to be held in high regard, it will ban administrators and editors like AKMask who act like dictators to keep facts from being told. I certainly don't deserve to be banned. Here's an example of what I've added and what has been repeatedly deleted by AKMask: (removed due to enormity)

The Rockets

Hello,

I don't know all the rules or procedures of Misplaced Pages, for that I apologize. However I have attempted to edit the page for "The Rockets" with some but not total satisfaction. One of the definitions you have posted reads as follows:

"Crazy Horse (band) — An American rock and roll band which was originally named "The Rockets".

In fact the Crazy Horse band was only one of at least two bands that have used the name the rockets The Detroit band mentioned was probably more well known as "The Rockets" than The crazy horse band was. While Crazy Horse is certainly notable, They used that name for a year or so, The Detroit Rockets used the name for 10+ years. and can still be heard frequently on Detroit FM stations.

The second, as one of your own admins pointed out, was a well known Band from Detroit. They put out 6 albums total, had several songs that charted and were formed by two of the former members of the "Detroit Wheels" Their singer sang for a period with Ted Nugent. They were the opening act for major bands of the period such as Kiss, ZZ Top, amungst many others. They had some but primarily local Detroit sucess with such hits as "Turn Up The Radio", "OH Well", "Takin it back" and others. They deserve more than a "See also, Detroit Wheels" I would be happy to attempt to do them better justice but I'm not sure I would be the best person to do so given my inexperience of WIKI and all the ins and outs, formatting ect. I will probably never find a reply so it may be better to send replies to crider.john@comcast.net

Thanks

See the following links:

http://www.johnny-bee.com/ http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Street/2818/ http://www.metrotimes.com/editorial/story.asp?id=3550 http://madrabbit.net/rockets/

Misuse of policy template for questionable proposed policy

A proposed policy, and yet in userspace: User:Kelly_Martin/Policy_council. When the template has been removed by three consecutive editors, Kelly has replaced it each time.

Kelly having a history of unilateralism when it comes to policy since wikimania, the proposed policy is alarming enough on it's own, seeking to limit who creates policy and how policy is amended, while being drafted in userspace away from an unsuspecting community and proper community input, but it gets worse when one considers that recent IRC discussion on this topic at #wikipedia Kelly proposed that all policy needs to determined by a small group of policy makers in face-to-face meetings funded by the foundation, and away from the community and its' input, led by Kelly Martin and Kim Bruning. Viewed in this light, Kelly ignoring calls for this proposed policy to be placed in the Misplaced Pages namespace, then edit warring to keep its' proposed policy template while hidden away from community review is simply unacceptable. I'd like to hear what regulars here have to say about this before I try to remove the template again. Thanks. FeloniousMonk 23:16, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Kelly should not edit war, even in her userspace- this cannot simultaneously be a proposal AND a page that only she can edit. However, I don't see that what namespace it's in is a big deal. Discussions of the merits of this (IMO appalling) proposal belong elsewhere, of course. Friday (talk) 23:23, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

It seems a somewhat pointless edit war. If this proposal is to be put before the community, then it'll obviously need to be publicized, so there's no problem with letting it sit in her userspace for the time being. Conversely, if this were to be a fait accompli from the WMF, the location of the proposal wouldn't matter in the least—so there's still no problem with leaving it in userspace. Kirill Lokshin 23:26, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Seconded. The Land 23:28, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Regardless of where it is, it needs to be discussed and other people have to be allowed to edit it, so I suggest that Kelly moves it to project space so that a discussion can begin. The Foundation would presumably want to know the strength of feeling about it, Kirill, if they were to involve themselves in any way, so that's why it needs to be in project space, or at least publicized and open for editing. SlimVirgin 23:29, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

If it were a fait accompli from the WMF, community participation would not be an issue. It's a fait accompli from Ms. Martin that I'm concerned about. FeloniousMonk 23:30, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Considering the level of community involvement being proposed—elections, WMF support, that sort of thing—I think that concerns about this being imposed by any single individual are somewhat far-fetched. (At the very least, there would need to be enough support from the stewards to get rid of the dissenting admins! ;-) Kirill Lokshin 23:38, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh for heaven's sake. Please stop removing the "proposed" tag from what is, wherever it may be in Misplaced Pages's namespaces, clearly a policy proposal. This is an utterly ridiculous and petty little squabble. --Tony Sidaway 23:36, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm about as worried about all this as I am an invasion of Michigan's Upper Peninsuala by Canada. People work up policy ideas in their userspace all the time. The assumptions of bad faith flying around here are staggering. Mackensen (talk) 23:37, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

• So what exactly is the problem with people being reminded that "This page is a proposed Misplaced Pages policy, guideline, or process. The proposal may still be in development, under discussion, or in the process of gathering consensus for adoption. References or links to this page should not describe it as "policy""? Demiurge 23:38, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Nothing whatsoever. I'm in favor of it being marked as such. Mackensen (talk) 23:48, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Talk about a tempest in a teakettle. It's a subpage of Kelly's userspace. What does it matter whether it's labelled a proposed policy or not? Stop reverting Kelly in her userspace. --Cyde Weys 23:43, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

The policy template is not being misused, so it should be left alone. There is nothing wrong with her drafting a proposed policy in her userspace. If you think the policy itself is questionable, then question it. Mexcellent 00:15, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Response

I'm still very confused about all this. This is a policy proposal under development. The {{proposal}} tag specifically covers this possibility. I really can't come up with a rational reason for the passionate insistence that it is wrong for a draft page in user space to have the {{proposal}} tag. And given some of the comments above, I find it extraordinarily hard to assume that the objections being levied at the mere existence of this proposal are truly offered in good faith -- especially the charges of "unilateralism" and of attempting to engineer a personal "fait accompli" for a proposal that would create a majority-elected body whose principal function is to recommend policy to the community. I did say that I would seek to get Kim Bruning drafted to the council.

I've already told the people who are so vehemently objecting to it being in user space that they can move it. Radiant! removed the tag in what appears to be me to have been "good faith" because it appeared to have been "stale". He was mistaken, however, and I reinstated the tag and solicited preliminary comment from a variety of people. Some of those comments have been fruitful (thanks, Alison), and have led to what I think is a better proposal. However, I was not quite ready to take it fully "public"; I should think that that should be a choice I get to make (but apparently not). So, I invite anyone who feels that this proposal should be debated in full now, before I've decided to move it for discussion, is free to move it to an appropriate page in Misplaced Pages: space.

Oh, and FeloniousMonk, this proposal in no way limits how policy may be created or changed. I suggest you reread the proposal, as you are clearly mistaken about that. Kelly Martin (talk) 00:31, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I see no issues with why {{proposal}} should'nt be used in the user namespace. El_C 00:57, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

But isn't there an issue with an edit (which Kelly later says seems to have been a "good faith" edit) being reverted with the edit summary "kindly stay out of my userspace" when the page is described as a proposed policy? AnnH ♫ 01:18, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Whatever. The editor in question is quite capable of negotiating on this with Kelly. There's no need to bring every piddling little spat to this forum, which is already groaning with serious problems requiring actual administrator attention. --Tony Sidaway 01:26, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Yup, if I wasn't assuming good faith, I'd say this sounds a lot like a 'let's get Kelly for this' thread. --Doc 01:50, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Kelly protests that she does not understand why people are upset, and she, and many others, present this as a conflict over the placement of a proposed policy tag. These people are missing the point. What is at stake here is very simple - the degree to which transparency and equal participation are core values at Misplaced Pages. Like many others, I believe that Misplaced Pages is first and foremost an encyclopedia, and a semi-anarchic wiki-community second. Nevertheless, it is our being a semi-anarchic wiki-community that distinguishes this from all other encyclopedias. And participation and transparency are essential to the integrity of the wiki-community. This is the issue. I and many others feel that Kelly's proposal would represent a major move away from these values by creating a small, institutionalized group with excessive power. Many of us feel that there should be some limits to editing policy pages, but placing them in the hands of a small group goes against the essense of Misplaced Pages. I and others like JoshuaZ have stated these objections (politely, I believe) on the proposed policy talk page. But the problem goes deeper. The way in which Kelly has forwarded this proposal is emblematic of the thing I and others so dislike about the policy - by placing it in her namespace rather than a wikispace, she is suggesting ownership of the space in which the discussion of the policy is to take place. I think this is why so many people felt that it was inappropriate to designate this as an official proposal as long as it was in her userspace. No one has advocated any kind of censorship - simply the position that if it is in her userspace it should not be considered an official poroposal yet, and if she is ready to make it an offical proposal it should be moved to a Misplaced Pages space. I suggest that people care about this so much is not because the placement of a tag is such a big deal, but rather it served as a metaphor, a symptom, of the greater issue, to what extent is does wikipedia belong to everyone or just a few. The way Kelly responded to these concerns just confirms the validity of these concerns - she was dismissive of any criticism or request to handle it a little differently. Again, this is the opposite of the wikipedia spirit where no one owns an article or a policy, and people should deal with one another in good faith in order to facilitate the collaborative process of wikipedia. Kelly's actions suggest a disregard for these values. Someone has criticized SlimVirgin for bringing up an IRC conversation, but in fact this IRC conversation once again illustrated the danger in Kelly's approach, because the IRC conversation lacks the ease of access and transparency of a discussion on a talk page. Kelly told me that she had not been keeping the proposal a secret and has been discussing it for nearly amonth. Really? How many people have been participating in this discussion? Where is it? If you look at the talk page of the proposed policy, which is where all this discussion ought to take place, more than half of the discussion is from today, not from the past four weeks. Hardly evidence of a transparent process and a discussion over policy with broad participation. This is the issue, folks, not whether a tag belongs on the page or not, that is just symbolic of the real issue, which is Kelly's disregard for the transparency and participatory and inclusive ideals of the wikicommunity, ideas her very proposal would subvert. As our community grows we increasingly face two challenges, the increased incidence of vandalism and trolls on the one hand, and new efforts to create more bureaucracy and a less open process and concentrated contol in the hands of a few. The former is a real problem, but the latter is not the solution / it is an equally dangerous problem Slrubenstein | Talk 03:24, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Right, so who decides precisely when we stop being transparent. If I work out a policy idea in my head, is that too far? What if I transfer it to paper and solicit ideas from several friends who are Wikipedians, am I going to get my own thread where everyone accuses me of sneaking behind their back? The fact is, it doesn't matter what state the policy/guideline is in, the community can comment and make changes when they get a hold of it. Shell 04:03, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

SlR, I agree with much of what you say, but I think in this particular case, the proposal draft will have to be proposed on the project page at some point, anyway. At that point, equale participation can commence. We don't have tags for unofficial proposals, so I don't see any harm in it being listed as a proposal. It will __not__ be ratified, however, as policy straight from her userpage and onto the project page (!). It will undergo the same length of discussion on the project page as any other proposal, even if there is an influx of support from those comfortable enough to edit her userspace (and I am not among them). El_C 04:24, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Incredible. I would never have guessed that by creating a policy proposal draft in plain sight in my user space, I exhibited "disregard for the transparency and participatory and inclusive ideals of the wikicommunity". I had no idea that drafting proposals in the plain light of day was so subversive. I shall endeavor in the future that I am more careful to ensure that any proposals I might make are drafted entirely in private and discussed solely through backchannels, lest I find myself acting in a manner that does not further transparency, broad participation, or inclusiveness. Kelly Martin (talk) 04:18, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, you are not being shown sufficient good faith. You placed it in the category, which leaves it open to review and editing by interested parties; it appears that you attempted to make changes to the article based on others' feedback, which is in keeping with the wiki spirit. I am fairly confident that, if someone made a productive content-related edit, you would have allowed the edit to stand. Bear in mind, however, that making a claim on something in your userspace that is, in theory, being brought to the notice of the community through the proposed policy/guideline/whatever category was not likely to make many fans; I don't think you meant "stay out of my userspace" quite the way it's being taken, but for various reasons certain segments of the community are not willing to assume as much good faith as one might wish. But really, as long as you're willing to foster discussion on the talk page and consider useful edits to the policy, I think people should just chill a little. I also hope that you were being sarcastic about moving proposal drafts off-wiki; that would be a sad end to this little tale. Captainktainer * Talk 07:33, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

AGF is not suicide. Kelly has, in fact, acted with disdain, lack of transperency, and unpredictability toward established editors fairly recently, so the concern that she will attempt to do something ... shall we say unexpected with the draft on account of it being a {{proposal}}, is not entirely unreasonable. While I, myself, do not share those concerns, I am able to understand the basis for these. El_C 10:48, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

So, wait a moment. You're telling me that there are people who hold some belief that I have some unique, unexplained ability to change policy, perhaps via some sort of eldritch superpower? And that the current hue and cry is out of paranoid fear that I might inexplicably exercise this alleged superpower so as to cause my proposal to be implemented without discussion and against the wishes of the community? I'm flattered. Kelly Martin (talk) 17:06, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Don't be. I think there are those who think there might be an attempt to circumvent in some way the normal processes of policy proposal. This does not imply success, but it does imply conflict. As mentioned, I don't share those fears in this case. El_C 20:09, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Wasn't that, essentially, the crux of the allegations at the recent images-related RfC? That particular incident, I think, illustrates the effects of (and, for some, a source of) that particular fear of unilateralist action. In that particular case you formulated a policy and acted on it, claiming (and receiving) support from discussions at Wikimania. It was at least perceived as a unilateralist action. You explained why that wasn't necessarily the case, but that central lack of congruence in editing styles- "edit first, form consensus later" versus "form consensus first, edit later" - is, in my opinion, one of the reasons for the suspicion and interference in this case. Captainktainer * Talk 21:12, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

The recent RfC regarding fair use abuse was the result of a combination of people who don't understand how policy is made on Misplaced Pages, people who dislike (or even fear) me personally, people who like to throw rocks at admins for doing what admins do, and people who just like a good fight. In any case, in that instance I was purportedly criticized for acting without consensus. In this instance, I am being criticized for attempting to build consensus. If people are going to criticize me whatever I do, I may as well do whatever I want and simply ignore the criticism, which in this instance seems even more baseless than it was on the fair use abuse RfC; at least there there were some vaguely credible complaints regarding civility. Here it's just a blatant display of the assumption of bad faith on the part of a small but vocal group who seem to be in abject fear of my purported extraordinary power to alter policy on the English Misplaced Pages. Kelly Martin (talk) 07:08, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Kelly, I tried to stay out of that RfC and I thought your policy suggestion was a good one. However your attempted method of constructing the tightened fair use policy was unilateral and unnecessarily divisive. Furthermore, many established editors expressed concern over that behavior and it is unreasonable to dismiss them all as "combination of people who don't understand how policy is made on Misplaced Pages, people who dislike (or even fear) me personally, people who like to throw rocks at admins for doing what admins do, and people who just like a good fight". And while I do see the concern here to be at best a minor policy issue, the users who have pointed out that this is symptomatic of a larger problem may be correct. In general if you approached things in a more diplomatic way we might get a lot more accomplished without these long, drawn out dramas. JoshuaZ 07:13, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Dude, you don't get it. I could be more diplomatic, yes, but then I'd be far less effective. I'm actually very effective in accomplishing what I want to accomplish. Yes, it's true, typically any effort on my part to accomplish anything is surrounded by a huge mass of drama. None of that has any impact on my effectiveness, though, and it's not even really a disincentive for me. I personally actually find the drama rather amusing, and I think it's beneficial for Misplaced Pages in the long run, too, because it exposes the drama queens to the community so that the rest of us know who not to trust. I'm apparently being stalked by dozens of editors who apparently have nothing better to do but look for things to go after me for -- and they will come up with things to go after me for no matter how diplomatically I do it. It's certainly not reasonable to require an editor to stop editing simply because other editors are stalking him or her, looking for opportunities to create drama. Seriously, do you really think I'm at fault here simply because I created a policy proposal draft in my user space? Kelly Martin (talk) 07:38, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

You'd first have to try being diplomatic, or else I think it's hardly credible for you to so confidently proclaim how successful being undiplomatic is working out. Thus, drama is a double-edged sword that may indeed follow from that approach. But, as for finding drama beneficial: we are here to write an encyclopedia, not to agitate, expose, be amused by, etc., real or imagined drama queens. Which is why it is important to communicate in straight forward and clear manner, with a helpful, friendly tone. El_C 04:40, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

(after edit conflict) It is perfectly valid to create a draft of a proposal for a policy under user space and I don't see any benefit in pressing Kelly to do it off wiki. Some concerns this draft may rise is it's inclusion into Category:Misplaced Pages proposals due to the template tag. Maybe the proposal tag could be substed and then the cat inclusion disarmed. Or we might change template:proposal in such a way that it doesn't add pages to Category:Misplaced Pages proposals if they are in userspace (can be done with m:ParserFunctions). An example of a namespace dependent activation of category inclusion can be seen in the code for temlate tfd. --Ligulem 07:40, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I think the real issue here is that some people are simply afraid of me having anything to do policy at all, and start banging gongs and drums as soon as they see me sneaking up on a policy page. (Although, oddly enough, nobody reverted or even commented on my reorganization of the blocking policy the other day. Did I really sneak that one in under the radar?) Frankly, it's getting old. Don't we have policies against stalking? Kelly Martin (talk) 07:00, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I think this page serves no harm, perhaps after working on it a while Kelly will see there is no point in finishing it or abandon it all together. It can be on userspace because kelly is unsure if they even want to proceed with prosoing it. I say leave it for now, eventually the community will have a say, I doubt they will decide to give away their power anyway. --User:Zer0faults 13:05, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I have mixed feelings about the proposal itself (see positive and negative aspects), but I don't see any harm in 'where it currently resides'. Always seemed kind of a weak issue even on the 'article space shortcuts' and 'userboxes in template space' debates to me. Does it really matter what it says to the left of the colon in the page title? If/when the proposal 'goes active' for community discussion we can discuss. Until then it's a proposal in progress and arguing over whether it should have to wait until 'left of the colon' says 'Misplaced Pages' before having the proposal template on it seems like quibbling over the minutiae IMO. --CBD 22:32, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

The problem, CBDunkerson, is that that page is now featured in Category:Misplaced Pages proposals. If it is such, it needs to be moved to the Misplaced Pages namespace. If it is only Kelly's sandbox, then it should not be listed under that category. All Kelly needs to do is to remove the category from the subst'ed template. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 03:38, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

How exactly is that a problem? 65.127.231.6 04:41, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not clear on that, either. My proposal is, in fact, a proposal in development, and I don't see why it's wrong for it to appear in a category for such entities. Perhaps if I were obsessive-compulsive (or just anal-retentive) over things like what appears in a category, I might feel differently. Kelly Martin (talk) 06:56, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

What kind of weird process wonkery says that policy proposals under development have to be in a particular namespace? Why? Where's the common sense behind that? Does anyone seriously believe that people's User: namespace implies ownership? I admit that I utterly fail to understand any objection to the location of this proposal, and I think anyone objecting to its location should keep their eye on the prize, and drop that objection like a bad habit. It's utterly unproductive. -GTBacchus 07:07, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Besides, it's moved now, so everyone's happy, right? -GTBacchus 07:18, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

THIS IS BLOODY RIDICULOUS. Let Kelly have her userspace page for a proposed policy, and let me have my userspace page for proposing an alternative to RfA. This does not belong on ANI, and looks like little more than a lynch mob. — Werdna talk criticism 06:13, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I concur... If this wasn't a lynchmob, nobody would have even NOTICED it in her userspace. - Stephanie Daugherty (Triona) - Talk - Comment - 06:17, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Are there any spelling or grammatical errors on the page? —Centrx→talk • 07:00, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

FWIW I agree that she can develop whatever proposals she wants in her own userspace. If she ever seeks to get them accepted by others she'll have to move them somewhere else, if she hasn't already done so by now, and then there'll be plenty of opportunity for people to oppose, support, suggest amendments, ignore, or whatever they want to do. I'm not sure why this is considered a big deal by anyone. Metamagician3000 09:04, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

There is no lynch mob. There is simply a few editors who believe that the "proposed policy" tag should be added only after the proposer has worked it through enough to his/her satisfaction that it could be moved from the proposer´s user page to a wikipedia page. That´s all. Some people reject this view as unnecessary - well, okay. But just because we disagree on this doesn´t make one group (or the other) a lynch mob. As for drama queens, in this entire discussion I see only one, Kelly Martin. So, she has had her day (or two) as a minor center of attention. I hope she enjoyed it. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:35, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

CBD reverses valid DRV decision

Now going completely against the policy he claims to be inviolable, CBD has recreated Bad Eisenkappel out of process even though it was deleted and then had its deletion unanimously endorsed at DRV. Evidently it is ok for him to ignore process, but not for anyone else. pschemp | talk 00:42, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

It appears CBD did the correct thing. The town does exist, right? El_C 00:52, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

This should be a fairly simply one. If there is really a town called Bad Eisenkappel at those approximate coordinates, then obviously Deletion Review got it wrong. If not, then CBD is being a bit overkeen. And yes, fuck process. --Tony Sidaway 00:55, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

To be fair, the article is now significantly longer than, Eisenkappl (slov. Zelesna Kapla) is located in Austria in Völkermarkt (district)., which was the entirety of the previous article. Dragons flight 01:00, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I see no reason why this article should not exist. Therefore, I see nothing wrong with what CBD did. DRV is not infalliable. Kelly Martin (talk) 01:02, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I see no reason he should be complaining about other people's out of process deletions and technicalities then as was done earlier this week. Good to know. pschemp | talk 01:09, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

What an odd series of events. Nice article. --Zer0faults 01:10, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I have asked the user not to violate WP:POINT again in a casual manner. --Zer0faults 01:12, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

That's not point, I beleive the article should remain deleted. pschemp | talk 01:14, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Why is that? I am sorry your reason an article on a real town should be deleted is because CB did it out of proccess, however thats not a AfD appropriate reason. If this was deleted by accident and missed in review, then why exactly should it return to deleted status? --Zer0faults 01:16, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

He also called not one but two people trolls (edit summary) which according to him is a personal attack and admin abuse. --W.marsh 01:24, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Wow. What happened to assuming good faith? I think Pussy Galore probably meant ever word sincerely. pschemp | talk 01:26, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Whats this have to do with the DRV? --User:Zer0faults 01:27, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I can start a new topic then if it bugs you so much. Maybe I should go back and resection all those long conversations up there where someone goes off on a different subject? I wouldn't want anyone to be confused. pschemp | talk 01:30, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

If there is a complaint about a personal attack the proper forum is WP:PAIN --User:Zer0faults 01:31, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

This isn't about a personal attack, its about a double standard. Or do you think its ok for CBD to tell people not to use the words trolls and trolling, and then do it himself after lambasting wmarsh for doing it? If you do that's fine, you are allowed. pschemp | talk 01:35, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

You said this was about the town, the section is, a user above then complains about the usage of the words troling to describe them, thats WP:PAIN. I am not sure about the confusion. --zero faults 01:43, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Zer0faults, please change back your sig as you did above — so that my sigh of relief wouldn't be for naught. El_C 01:51, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I think that the out of process restoration is not the big issue here, really, although the article is not worthy of life. What matters more to me is that it's a demonstration of what we've all been saying, no one is perfect. CBD would do well to remember htat and perhaps cut his fellow admins a little slack instead of attacking them on the talk pages of disruptive users. ++Lar: t/c 01:47, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

DRV endorsed the deletion not because it wasn't a real town, but because the article was effectively contentless. I've re-deleted it. I won't do it again, of course, but my suggestion would be that if this town is deserving of a real article, that someone actually write a real article, rather than a stub that says "X is Y." If no one can be bothered to actually do that, then I really can't be bothered to cry crocodile tears over the poor abused baby article, cut down in the prime of its life. Nandesuka 01:32, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Are you claiming the town dosen't exist? El_C

This is rather strange. If the town exists, why not let the article exist? Antandrus (talk) 01:42, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Sigh, DRV said make it larger. CBD already made it 3 times larger than what DRV endorsed, and I would have happily said it was a border community with a population of about 2800 . Dragons flight 01:44, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

nevertheless Nandesuka got it in one. ++Lar: t/c 01:47, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I also have some content to add, however I am not sure if its already noted as the article is deleted. --zero faults 01:50, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Ye gods. This is another non-issue. The town exists; therefore its article should stay. Please find another forum to crusade against short articles. — Dan | talk 01:54, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

The article was restored by Rdsmith4, who beat another admin (not me) to the draw. Please stop pointlessly deleting this article. It isn't going to work. --Tony Sidaway 01:56, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Rdsmith edit-conflicted my undelete.  ;-) The town exists, and there is absolutely no reason we shouldn't have an article on it. It is really that simple. This is not a valid CSD G4 or WP:SALT candidate. As said before, this should be a non-issue. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 02:00, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

The point you are missing here all is that the original author of the article had MONTHS to recreate it with content, at which point no one would have complained. However, he refused to until he got his way with the original article being restored. Indeed he spent those months whining and complaining about admin abuse rather than writing a decent article. And now, by restoring it, and writing it for him, we have sent the message that that kind of behaviour and manipulation is ok. pschemp | talk 01:58, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

You should be happy that Misplaced Pages did not lose an important article on an actual location, if anything this drama helped expand an article. I am happy when Misplaced Pages grows in content in general. --zero faults 02:03, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

We do not make such a point at the expense of the encyclopedia, on a town entry, pschemp. El_C 02:08, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually it was Tobias who refused to rewrite it not me. If anything his refusal to do it until he got his way is what hurt the encyclopedia. Note also I didn't vote to delete the original. I objected to the ignorange of process when just this week CBD blasted me for not following it perfectly. the article is just an example of this. pschemp | talk 02:15, 9 September 2006 (UTC)pschemp | talk 02:13, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

So this is entirely personal issue. Accordingly, please take it to the relevant user talk pages, and discontinue this conversation. — Dan | talk 02:18, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Sure. Should I go remove all the other personal issues posted on this page too? Though I hardly think an admin behaving badly is a personal issue as its discussed at lentgh in threads up above where I was accused of not being perfect. pschemp | talk 02:24, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

The point here to me is merely this... we all make mistakes and we ought not to rail about failure to follow process in one instance and then fail to follow it in another. Better to have some balance and not be so quick to judge other editors, which point I think is lost now. Hopefully CBD will realise that, and cut more people more slack. ++Lar: t/c 03:25, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah sorry edited a few after Tony did, just havent edited the actual settings yet, 2 minutes, thanks for reminder. --User:Zer0faults

What's wrong with an article about a place that says "X is a village in Y at Z?" For heaven's sake, this is a place. It was probably here before we were born, and it will probably still be here when we're all dead. --Tony Sidaway 02:04, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Keeping this is a no brainer. This is exactly why we should not let silly squabbles get in the way of the encyclopedia, which I remain convinced is around here somewhere. Friday (talk) 02:23, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Surely we have a name for short articles on places - {{stub}}s, or possibly even {{geo-stub}}s. Are you arguing that they should all be deleted? What is wrong with a short article on a place that actually exists? -- ALoan (Talk) 05:57, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Nothing, as long as the "place" isn't, say, one guy's house! :) Xoloz 21:38, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

• Hi - DRV closer here. The deleted article didn't even bother to "X is Y"; it said "X is in...", but didn't even bother calling the place a "town", or calling it anything at all. If someone has a draft now in good faith calling this a town, that's fine IMO. The DRV does not then apply. Xoloz 21:38, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi Xoloz, please don't take my action as an implication that your DRV close was improper. You followed the clear consensus and it wasn't clear that the article was about a town... unless you are familiar with German place names like Bad Mergentheim, Bad Lausick, et cetera. I just couldn't imagine that anyone would object to an expanded article on an encyclopedic subject once sufficient info were added to address such concerns. --CBD 22:41, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

We definitely need DRV closers who are prepared to admit that they have brains and that on occasion the use of a brain is not only unavoidable but desirable. . --Tony Sidaway 04:17, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

The DRV was shot down unanimously because of blatant WP:POINT. Only a couple of days earlier the same editor used DRV as a soapbox to attack admins and editors over the deletion of a Pilcomayo Department microstub. When I actually created an article on the department to stop the stupidity it turned out that it took me 14 researched edits to revert the damage the editor had wreaked in 30 seconds. This was quite properly closed by Xoloz. ~ trialsanderrors 09:13, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

And quite properly recreated by CBD, who was willing to expand the article on a real place. -- SCZenz 10:04, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes. ~ trialsanderrors 15:17, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Dbiv and Peter Tatchell

I know it has been going on for a while, but User:Dbiv is editing Peter Tatchell despite the ban imposed by ArbCom. The editing is happening right now, and User:Calton is reverting; he is also saying some things in edit summaries he perhaps shouldn't. User:Freakofnurture is reverting as well, although he is not being so harsh in his edit summaries (he is using rollback).

I am not taking sides on this issue, but 1. Dbiv's edits are undoubtedly useful to the article 2. Dbiv is undoubtedly in direct violation of ArbCom's ruling and 3. There is an revert/edit war going on right now. Someone braver (and with protection/blocking tools at their disposal) than me might want to go and sort out what is happening. Batmanand | Talk 15:30, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, there's a tension here. We've been put in the ridiculous position of reverting good edits. I never saw why the article ban was necessary and it's clear that we're actively harming the encyclopedia by keeping it in place. Mackensen (talk) 15:34, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and incidentally, in the next few minutes, 3RR violations might well happen from both users. Batmanand | Talk 15:37, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

The only "edit war" going on here is blind canceling out of David Boothroyd's (User:Dbiv) positive contributions. While it is a bit understandable that editors want to help enforce an ArbCom decision it strikes me as more sensible to merely mention Dbiv's editing of the article somewhere (ie: here) rather than just blindly edit out his beneficial edits. In the interest of full disclosure I happen to generally disagree with the ArbCom decision to ban Dbiv from editing this article for a year. A better solution (imho) would be to have placed him on revert patrol for the article. (→Netscott) 15:37, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree, but I find it to be a dark and scary road when we start deciding which arbcom decisions we ought to ignore. For the record, I've also warned Carlton for his part in this, and may issue a brief 'cool down' block shortly. --InShaneee 15:57, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Tony Sidaway's comments below. Are adminstrators obliged to enforce every ArbCom decision? Obviously there will be those who will say yes but if in ignoring all rules an editor is benefiting the encyclopedia why should they be penalized? Also just as an editor can be banned under "community patience" logic, why not have the inverse apply? (→Netscott) 16:01, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I would ask why can the issue of a lifting of their previous decision simply be brought up to the Arbs instead? --InShaneee 16:04, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

It was. Batmanand | Talk 16:08, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

My mistake. Though that link does raise some interesting points. --InShaneee 16:10, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Previously Tony Sidaway spoke about David being a positive contributor that the project would suffer to see him leave (a statement that I agree with). This whole story goes hand in hand with that. (→Netscott) 16:12, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

The article is now lacking references because of the reverts. This is beyond absurd. Mackensen (talk) 15:41, 9 September 2006 (UTC) I've currently blocked Dbiv for one week and noted so on his ArbCom page. If the ArbCom would like to rollback their decision, I'll be more than happy to unblock. --InShaneee 15:43, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

• For my part, I've re-added the references, in the interests of promoting the encyclopedic quality of an article. I would note that I'm not presently under any kind of sanction, at least none that I'm aware of. Mackensen (talk) 15:45, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I decided this morning, after giving Dbiv a warning, to stop trying to enforce this remedy. Administrators aren't required to enforce arbitration remedies, and in my view if I performed such enforcement in this case I would not be improving the encyclopedia, but probably making it worse. Ignore all rules applies here. --Tony Sidaway 15:50, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

But the question surely is this: would you, or anyone else who disagreed with the remedy (or at least have stopped enforcing it) actively revert someone who reverted Dbiv's edits? Or would you reinsert them as "yourself" (as opposed to a rollback)? Or are you going to just stay out of the whole sordid affair? It's a toughie... Batmanand | Talk 15:54, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

That's also a question of politness--rolling back a sysop is beyond rude (although we've all done before, as a survey once showed). Mackensen (talk) 15:58, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

They're good contribs, there's no arguing that. I'm all for putting back in what belongs there. --InShaneee 15:58, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't revert to retain well sourced, neutral and balanced information inserted by User:dbiv. I wouldn't revert to avoid retaining it either. I wish he would place his information on the talk page. --Tony Sidaway 16:13, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Since he is currently blocked, I'm adding the following text from Dbiv's talk page:

Since the axe of the Arbitration finding fell I have continued to edit the article, and no-one has actually criticised the substance of my edits. They have all been accepted in the article. I am not going to put edits through a 'filter' of the talk page; such a suggestion is an insult given that I wrote most of what's there in the article at the moment, and it's also pointless given the fact that no-one outside the Arbitration Committee seems to believe I will actually be disruptive. (The Arbitration Committee itself has refused to offer any true explanation of the article ban, however). Even if they do believe that I might be disruptive, then there are mechanisms in place which allow control - article-specific probation, or even general probation - which I would be quite willing to accept. If such a change was made then I would consider the article ban repudiated and return to contributing to Misplaced Pages generally. David | Talk 16:33, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

(→Netscott) 16:34, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Maybe a solution:

1. Page-banned editors are still allowed to make suggestions at the talk page.
2. Any other editor can add them to the main page.
3. To streamline this, one or more editors could function as a proxy, he makes the suggestion, they judge it, and add it if they see fit.

As far as I know, the page-ban was for disruption, not for content issues. This would allow the ArbCom ruling to be enforced, while the positive content contributions benefit Misplaced Pages.-- Kim van der Linde 16:39, 9 September 2006 (UTC)\

A good idea, but he has written in the rant on his userpage already that he would not accept that as a solution. --InShaneee 17:03, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Two things. One, I don't know that I'd characterize it as a "rant" (I reserve that word for incoherent tirades). Two, this solution doesn't seem any different from the present situation. Mackensen (talk) 17:05, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

The minor difference would be that I for example would use as a filter *.* aka, everything he suggests is added, unless it is uncivil or something like that. It would be really a proxy without additional filtering. BUt I guess it will not be accaptable for him. As for the page ban, I actually disagree with the ArbCom on that, just as various other editors. As such, I think the ArbCom might want to rethink this as the ban itself is now more disruptive than the editing of the page due to the lack of community support for that ban. -- Kim van der Linde 17:15, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

It seems to me that it would be better for the project if Dbiv would restrain himself until and unless the arbcom ruling is changed/amended/etc. It's possible that the article may be improved by his edits, but it's very harmful to the community when our last-and-final-resort dispute-resolution mechanism has its remedies ignored in this fashion. IAR has its place and it's very important, but I believe that Arbcom should have its rulings honoured while they stand. I have no comment about the justice of the ruling, which I haven't followed enough to have an opinion on. --Improv 17:23, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm still looking for a warm supporter of the ruling convinced by the merits...Mackensen (talk) 17:35, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I am. Dbiv was barred from the article for disruption, edit-warring and misusing admin tools. He has a pattern of edit-warring alongside his many useful contributions. Given Dbiv's propensity to edit-war, ArbCom had little choice than to limit his ability to do so. In continuing to make constructive edits to the article Dbiv is just a much interested in playing games with the community as he is in improving the article. That said a bit more calm from some of the other people involved might help the situation as well. The Land 17:54, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

The same could have been accomplished by putting him on 1RR and general parole, and would in the end have been much more productive for Misplaced Pages. -- Kim van der Linde 18:26, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

(Reindent): I don't think that admins (or anyone) should ignore ArbCom decisions because they think that they are wrong, counterproductive, ... They are supposed to be binding decisions, and the only way to go against them (except emergencies, which this isn't) is to appeal (at ArbCom or with Jimbo). If you disregard ArbCom decisions, then you loose all authority, both as an admin and the authority from ArbCom. In this case, the user has every ooportunity to make edits to other articles, and a good solution has been given to let him make indiret contributions to this article. That he disregards this shows a thorough disrespect for the decision taken by ArbCom and does not give the impression that he accepts that he was wrong earlier. That some admins are willing to support him in this against this ArbCom decision is beyond me, and is in a way much more serious than the behaviour of one editor. If you can't live with the policies of Misplaced Pages, if you can't accept the few binding decisions taken, and if you disregard them in such a blatant way, it makes me wonder how you can still be at the same time an administrator. Fram 18:42, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

There are several seperate issues:

1. Do you accept the binding nature of the ArbCom decisions? Yes
2. Do you agree with those binding ArbCom decisions? Most of the time
3. Do you enforce ArbCom decisions you agree with? Yes
4. Do you enforce ArbCom decisions you disagree with? No
5. Do you obstruct enforcement of ArbCom decisions you disagree with? No
6. Do you voice your disagreement with ArbCom decisions you disagree with? Yes

I am here as a volunteer, not as a paid law-enforcement officier. I think there is nothing wrong with voicing disagreement with ArbCom rulings, as long as you do not obstruct them. -- Kim van der Linde 18:59, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Dbiv's rejection of Misplaced Pages's dispute resolution process is the cause of his problems. From start to finish he chose to ignore standard dispute resolution policy that is used to find consensus. This behavior continues with his blatant disregard of the arbitration committee ruling. Damage *is* done to the encyclopedia if we ignore the final step of dispute resolution--an arbitration ruling.

Regarding reverting quality edits- it is a necessary evil. The same as protecting articles in the wrong version. FloNight 19:40, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

• This is only the case if we accept the proposition that Arbcom is always right. Frankly, I think Arbcom fumbled this one badly. Its charter doesn't include content disputes but it ruled as though it did. It isn't a necessary evil. No one disagrees with the quality of the edits–my reinstatement stood, and with good reason. When you ban Dbiv from Peter Tatchell you don't punish him, you punish the article. If Dbiv needs punishing ban him, desysop him, burn his house down, whatever. But if he's still a contributor in good standing, it's nonsensical to ban him outright from an article. What about article probation? One-revert rule? No, Arbcom fumbled and would do us all a service by admitting the mistake and taking the necessary steps to correct it. Mackensen (talk) 19:46, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

• Couldn't agree more with both User:KimvdLinde and User:Mackensen here. (→Netscott) 20:12, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I stongly advocate a clue-based approach. Are the edits good? Yes? Then politely remind David that he's not supposed to edit the articles and should suggest on Talk in future, and get on with our lives. In this case, to suggest a list of changes that long on Talk would have taken almost as much space as this discussion... Guy 20:21, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I rarely feel the need to comment on threads here, but this is inane. An article that needs improving is being improved. To actively disimprove an article in the name of enforcing some rule is overdone bureaucracy and something that should only happen if, say, the Department of Motor Vehicles were running the encyclopedia. Opabinia regalis 20:33, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Consensus?

In the sense of a community decision I propose we try to establish a consensus regarding what we think would be the best solution for the project relative to this issue of User:Dbiv editing the Peter Tatchell article. If a consensus is established that another remedy would be more appropriate for Dbiv then we could present this community consensus to ArbCom and see if it could be adopted. I admit that I don't know if there is any sort of process to allow for this but as I'm seeing a decent number of respectable editors having reservations about the current ArbCom remedy it seems like at least the possibility of another remedy should be entertained. I would start by proposing that Dbiv be put on 1RR revert patrol on the article. (→Netscott) 20:24, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

A solution has been presented to Dbiv (placing his comments/edits on the talk page). I can't see how sending the message that while all channels have been used and the final, binding decision was that he should not edit the article, he can now come and do that anyway, since he has useful points to make... The solution that he rejects is one that makes it possible for him to contribute and for the encyclopedia to use his contributions, while not ignoring the past and decisions that have been taken becausee of his actions. I can't see how that is unacceptable as a compromise, and if he is not willing to compromise in any way (which is the impression this gives), then I don't see why we (i.e. the community) should just give in and let him have his way. A compromise must come from both sides. If the proposal by Netscott is supported, then the consensus will at least not have my agreement. Fram 20:33, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I should have made this clear. So far I've not seen much in the way of disagreement that Dbiv's editing on the article was negative per se (negative in the sense that he contravened ArbCom's ruling, surely). Unless someone disagrees that his edits were done towards improving or maintaining Misplaced Pages's quality then as User:Tony Sidaway mentioned earlier this is a case of "ignore all rules". I admit that despite this truth Dbiv's defiance relative to an ArbCom ruling is not a character in editors that the project wants to cultivate but can anyone honestly disagree that his edits didn't improve Misplaced Pages's quality? (→Netscott) 20:43, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

If David had said something along the lines of "look, I have a shedload of citations that need adding, does anyone mind if I just add them?" then I strongly suspect we would not be here now. These are good edits, but there is the issue of his apparent contempt for ArbCom - in as much as we have an authority, they are it. This time, he should be admonished, I think. Next time, if there is a next time, the cluebats should be wielded. Guy 20:51, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm afraid this is the next time Guy... as Dbiv's already been previously blocked for editing on the article in question. I believe that's why we're having this discussion now. (→Netscott) 20:54, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Suggesting changes on the talk page can be time consuming and inconvenient. Copying an article to your userspace, editing it to your hearts content, and asking someone to copy it back to the main article when you are done, is not as inconvenient. NoSeptember 21:39, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

This is a classic case of WP:IAR, in its proper and pure sense - ignore rules that get in the way of improving the encyclopedia (which is why we are here, dammit - or at least should be the reason we are here: Misplaced Pages is not an exercise in democracy, a justice system, a bizarre form of nomic, or a thousand and one other things - it is an project to build an encyclopedia).

Without exploring the reasons why, the active members of the ArbCom (blessings be upon them) have banned him from editing the article. Fair enough. If he edits the article, he could face punitive sanctions. However, so long as he is making bona-fide edits to improve the article (and all observers agree, as far as I can see, that this is the case here) then there is no need to punish him for breaching the ArbCom ruling. It is simply bizarre that positive improvements should be reverted as a result of an ArbCom ruling. If someone - anyone - thinks that his edits cease to be improvements, he should be sanctioned. IMHO, E&OE, YMMV, HTH, HAND.-- ALoan (Talk) 21:57, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

• It is not our place to overrule ArbCom. I think ArbCom and Jimbo are the outer limits of IAR, and we step beyond them at our peril. It's one thing to make suggestions that Arbcom change their decision or appeal to Jimbo, and quite another to ignore their decisions. We have ArbCom and Jimbo, we admit that they may not always be right, but as a basis of editing on the site, we should accept them as having authority on these matters. People who don't like that and won't live with it (or successfully get them to change their mind) can fork. --Improv 22:18, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

• Just a small reminder here... this isn't about overturning an ArbCom decision but about presenting a community consensus (if one exists) to ArbCom for consideration relative to User:Dbiv editing the Peter Tatchell article. (→Netscott) 22:28, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

• I am not suggesting that we ignore or overrule or overturn a decision of ArbCom. I am suggesting that ArbCom can not seriously have intended that their decisions would have the effect of making the encylopedia worse, and that we should interpret their decisions in a way that does not have that effect. Jimbo is another matter: I leave the interpretation of his often-Delphic comments to our high priests and priestesses. -- ALoan (Talk) 22:39, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

• I have to agree, if someone fail to live up to restrictions plased on them by the Arbcom then by all means block them temporarily for increasingly long periods. However we should never remove good content as a way to "punish" the user who added it. --Sherool (talk) 23:31, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

• I agree, it seems unbelievably petty. We should not confuse the issue of User:Dbiv's actions in respect of ArbCom and the quality of the article. MikeHobday 07:58, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

• If someone not under ArbCom wants to add good content, nothing's stopping them. If Dbiv wants to add good content, nothing's stopping him from bringing it to the Talk page, as he's explicitly allowed. That he refuses that simple step -- one which requires him to actually work with others, which is at the heart of the ArbCom case -- says that this isn't about content, it's about Dbiv's attempt at control. --Calton | Talk 00:20, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

• That may or may not be true, but should we punish the readers of article for it? MikeHobday 07:18, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Cgordonbell

Based on their edits and their non-response to my question posed on their talk page, I'd assume this isn't actually C. Gordon Bell, which would make this an inappropriate user name. Reported by: Atlant 00:09, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

• The editor has not made any edits since the question was posted on 7 Sept. It is possible that he is away now, so not having answered yet doesn't mean that there will not be a response. Reviewing the edits, none seem malicious — in fact, all seem well informed. I'm inclined to wait. — ERcheck (talk) 01:41, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay -- waiting ;-).

Atlant 00:34, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

About the AfD debate for Ousmane Zongo and user Giuliani Time

I know that AfD debates are not the bastion of civility and proper conduct and I tend to accept that. But somehow this particular debate just really got to me. The article concerns Ousmane Zongo an innocent man who was shot and killed by the NYPD. I was not aware of this incident and in fact his story is beyond the point. However user Giuliani Time (talk · contribs · count) nominated him by stating "The only tragedy here is for P.O. Brian Conroy (the officer who shot the man). We don't need articles about every stupid perp who gets killed". The rest of the debate also included outrageous comments by Spring3100 (talk · contribs · count) (who also seems to have a pro-police agenda), Noodles the Clown (talk · contribs · count) and Never forget the 343 (talk · contribs · count). Sockpupettry is also likely, see e.g. Kevlar 42 (talk · contribs · count) and AC Ginger Ale (talk · contribs · count).

Of course, there are bad faith nominations in AfD every day and so the Misplaced Pages world turns. But there was something in the viciousness of the language which I believe requires action from administrators and this has not been the case so far (for all I know). I'd like to add that I was not alone in my disgust at reading this debate and another editor in fact sent me a sympathy note on my talk page and I would be surprised if we were the only two editors to react in this way. Pascal.Tesson 00:37, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

• I agree, which is why I didn't vote in that AfD. Danny Lilithborne 01:32, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

• This is a clear case of bad faith agenda pushing, as well as demonising and skewing the facts to get the result wanted. Even if the article doesn't meet notability, as some of the more coherent delete nominations have said, the problem still lies on the fact that the AFD began in bad faith and should be speedily kept as such. A second AFD can take place after that in good faith, but this current one is based on POV pushing, slander and sock puppets. –– Lid 02:05, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

• I've just filed another request for some sort of action at the bottom of the page, and I've just been pointed to this - and let me re-iterate my upset and disgust at the general tone and conduct employed in this AFD. It's been confirmed at checkuser that Giuliani Time (talk · contribs · count) is a sockpuppet of Spring3100 (talk · contribs · count). Clearly, some severe action must be taken. -No more bongos 19:30, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
• Just to say that I've blanked the other report I added. What we need now is an admin to close it and to take action against sockpuppeteers and those making personal attacks. I cannot overstate how appalled I am at the behaviour shown in this AFD - this is the kind of thing that really does bring Misplaced Pages into disrepute. - No more bongos 20:15, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

• I'll add my m3 t00 to the above comments. Tasteless doesn't begin to do the AFD justice, and I'm no shrinking violet. More socks than in my sock drawer. Strange, because it's usually webcomix and gamecruft and websites that bring them out in force. Angus McLellan (Talk) 20:10, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Don't worry, I'm watching the AfD and intend to close it after the normal amount of time. I intend to ignore the nastier comments in my decision. JoshuaZ 20:14, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

JoshuaZ closed the afd, and my edit above was the product of an edit conflict. I still believe action must be taken against some of the editor(s)/sock(s) involved. -No more bongos 20:41, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Possible sockpuppet of Cute 1 4 u

Hello I believe that this user New York from Flavor of Love may be this indefinatly blocked user Cute 1 4 u. Check this dif and talk page Leroyencyclopediabrown for the possible proof. If I'm wrong on this I appolize in advance but Cute 1 4 u does have a history of sock puppet and ban evasion. Æon _EA! 02:14, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

In addition I once I commented on that user being suspicious the comments that were made by New York from Flavor of Love were removed. Æon _EA! 02:20, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not an admin, but this looks somewhat similar (Cute 1 4 u did once create an account impersonating Raven Symone). I'd file a RFCU. --Coredesat talk. o_O 02:33, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I thought about it, thanks I will should I post the findings here or will not not be needed? Æon _EA! 02:34, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Any findings in the RFCU should probably be posted here unless it comes back positive and she's indef-blocked right then and there. But it looks somewhat definitive, looking at the user's edit history. --Coredesat talk. o_O 02:39, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Coredesat. I caught one of hers last week and the writing style is VERY similar to here other socks. I will post the finding once they come in. Æon _EA! 02:43, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

The account *could* be blocked per WP:USERNAME I think... "New York" was in fact the nickname given to a real contestant on the first season of Flavor of Love (generally only the nicknames were used on the show) and thus this name more-or-less falls afoul of the "Names of well-known living people" clause. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 04:57, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

After looking at the userpage and what BoG said, I decided to issue the username block. User:Zscout370 04:59, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Is it just me, or does anyone else find it absurd how much people-power is being thrown at stopping an alleged 11 year old female sockpuppeteer from "abusing" Misplaced Pages as a social network? --  Netsnipe  ►  04:56, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I take it from your use of quotation marks that you disagree with the characterization of social networking as an abuse of Misplaced Pages? Choess 06:05, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, based on this diff and the message the most current IP placed on Leroy's talk page, it's definitely her. She thinks she can hide stuff by deleting it. Ryūlóng 06:07, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi, just call me Ed.=) I apologize to everyone who has been trying to contact me overnight. I (obviously) was sleeping. Anyway, I think that Cute 1 4 u should be given one more chance. Two reasons for this. First of all, she doesn't have to keep making new accounts just to prove her point. Second, it removes the hassle of blocking EVERY SINGLE account she makes. We all know she's going to make more and more accounts.--Ed 12:58, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I disagree, she was blocked for Sockpuppet abuse, impersation, Vandalism and the 11 year old part was just added ammo to the case. And the Check user came up possitive. Æon _EA! 18:35, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

New York from Flavor of Love and 75.34.176.105 have both been blocked indef as sockpuppets, although I thought that IPs shouldn't be blocked indefinitely. Was there an exception made? --Mr. Lefty _{Talk to me!} 18:38, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

You know that she's going to make a new account anyway! What's the point for all of this hassle? This is a complete waste of our time! If we just give her a second chance on Misplaced Pages, less time for us working on her case, and one more volunteer Wikipedian.--Ed 02:41, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Cute 1 4 u welcomed Starcare, who is likely a puppet of Publicola, who is likely a puppet of Pepsidrinka. Hard punt. Lots of socks involved here.--Scribner 03:15, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

You see? The situation's getting worse. The only solution is to back off or get more admin power.--Ed 03:27, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Scribner obviously has something against Pepsidrinka, so I'm taking his comments with more than a pinch of salt. – Chacor 03:30, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, that's way too much of a stretch. Ed, sorry, but Cute 1 4 u has just done too much. Yeah, she'll keep coming back, and she'll continue to contact you, and we'll continue to deal with her. If she realizes that she's not helping, then we'll stop blocking, but as long as she continues to contact you and admit that she's who she is, then we have to block her. Ryūlóng 04:21, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Ryulong, I'm not the only one she might want to contact. Do you even realize that she could be lurking around Misplaced Pages right this moment? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ed (talk • contribs)

75.34.12.156 is another one. Posted on my talk page Æon _EA! 07:11, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't know about this IP you found, but I think we should wait until she does something else before we take action against this IP.--Ed 22:45, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

It was blocked it was her (The post admited it) Æon _EA! 00:16, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

How long is the block? --Ed 00:41, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Another Possible one Prple space mnky@hotmail.com edited with the summary Got to keep it real on edit summary (Dif ) a phrase that she used many many times as her qoute. Caught this one while monitoring recent changes Æon _EA! 00:57, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

This is Cute 1 4 u. If I had any socks, I'd admit them. I already told you all of them. But Ed is right, I'm trying to prove my point. --75.33.230.133 02:11, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not Prple space mnky@hotmail.com , User:Starcare, or User:Publicola. I swear, I don't even know them. However, to prove my point, all i can say is that i have a new account and I am much nicer on that account. Ed is right. --75.33.230.133 02:17, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I may have found another sock and I requested a check user (Came up again on Recent changes, edits article that were created by other socks with teh same grammer an such) Æon _EA! 02:38, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

More or less confrimed the sockpuppet. Autoblock got it (See TV Lover) Æon _EA! 04:16, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Bertilvidet and Khoikhoi gang up against contibutions

National Security Council and National Security Council (Turkey)

1. I am filing a complaint against Bertilvidet for reverting contributions to the above article on 9/9/06 without any respect to the content matter or the quality of a contribution by another party on the same day, but only on the basis of his egotistic territorialism. He, as a non-national antagonist, continously practices similar behaviour on a number of Turkey and Turkish related articles, related to Turkish institutions, both military and non-military, enforcing his political opinions with ethnic and cultural bias with the purpose of degradation. Attempts to restore objectivity and fair and valuable knowledge content in the articles that are majorly distorted with his political commentaries have repeatedly been a failure because of his unexplainable obsessive reversals of the content matter as well as his solitacion of performing the same vandalism on his behalf by some other cooperating buddies such as the user Khoikhoi. A smilar and serious prevention on their part of the improvement of the content matter took place on August 18, 2006 at the article National Security Council (Turkey), violating Misplaced Pages rules enforcing no reversal by the same administrator recurrently, in addition to not allowing any other party to contribute to those article s in a fair way. They did not only fail to recognize the contibutions in good faith but collectively called fair changes 'vandalism' to maintain their hegemony. I sincerely hope you will be able to prevent them continuing with this kind of disruptive behaviour.Thank you for your time and support in advance

2. I am filing a complaint against the administrator / contibutor named Khoikhoi for vandalising links at the article "Turkey" in a recurrent and disruptive manner, ruling out comments and requests given to him as "trolling" and "rant", also deleting them along with the links that he vandalisez. He is assisted in his activities by Bertilvidet. Please see the Turkey article and its talk history for details. The request I make from you is identical to the immediately one above. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rednblu (talk • contribs)

Please be aware that these pages aren't the place to bring disputes over content, or reports of abusive behaviour — we aren't referees, and have limited authority to deal with abusive editors. We have a dispute resolution procedure which we recommend you follow. Please take such disputes to mediation, requests for comment, or requests for arbitration rather than here. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 04:32, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I was referred to you by one of the resources you suggest. (pls.see below) I will also post to the others as you recommended.

"Your edits on Requests for arbitration: Hi, I removed your requests because they appear to be malformed. Please ensure that earlier stages of Dispute resolution have been followed and failed. If there is a simple problem of disruptive behavior, consider making a complaint on Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents because this gets a much quicker response in cases that are clear and need immediate action. " --Tony Sidaway 03:56, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, as it says at the top of the page, this is the right page to place an informal complaint. After reviewing the pages in question my guess is that specifically you are objecting to reversions like this being called 'reversion of vandalism' and this being called 'reversion of commercial link spamming'... complete with accompanying warnings on user talk pages. I would have to agree that both of those instances seem like content / NPOV disputes rather than anything close to vandalism or spamming. The 'vandalism' claim seems to be founded on 'blanking of material', but I do not believe that was ever meant to apply to situations where someone removes some materials and adds others in a clearly 'good faith' attempt to make improvements (from their perspective) to the encyclopedia. I would have some NPOV concerns with the text that was being reverted, but NPOV disputes are explicitly not vandalism and ought to be discussed on the article talk pages... where I see little or no commentary on these issues. However, in like kind their actions are not 'vandalism' either. People on both sides of these disputes should stop reverting and start discussing. Use the article talk pages. Use edit summaries other than blank, 'rv', or the 'rollback' text. Basic communication and good faith efforts to resolve disagreements... rather than edit warring and accusations based on mis-application of policy. I may have missed something, for instance you specifically said to review Talk:Turkey but when I did so I could find nothing on this subject of link removal (though I did notice Bertilvidet calling someone "Crazy boy" and then 'warning' them about civility and personal attacks)... but overall it seems that there have not been any significant efforts to discuss these disagreements. --CBD 12:49, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Why are you posting this here? Dispute resolution is ↔ over there. User:Zoe|(talk) 19:43, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

To the complaintant: Tony Sideway was right that this is the place to bring allegations of disruptive behavior. Your situation is a content dispute. It belongs in dispute resolution. ⇒ SWATJester Aim _Fire! 01:33, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Commercial Spam

In article Erotic sexual denial, Mskatrina, also as user:66.27.70.252 has repeatedly inserted the link to her commercial web page, "Erotic teasings". Spam site delinked by Ral315; link in history if necessary.

I count at least twenty times between 9 july and 9 sep, each of them reverted by various people.

I also see a few instances where the user removed what appears to be commercial links of "competitors". They probably also did not belong there, but shows that the user clearly knows that commercial links are not allowed.

User:Mdwh made a note on the talk page on 17 August: "See Misplaced Pages:External_links. In particular, note "blogs and forums should generally not be linked to", and see the note about requiring registration. I'll remove these links for now, please explain why if you disagree. Mdwh 00:57, 17 August 2006 (UTC)"

A gave her a friendly warning on 6 September, see User_talk:Mskatrina, partial quote:
"Also see item #4 "# Links that are added to promote a site, that primarily exist to sell products or services, with objectionable amounts of advertising, or that require payment to view the relevant content, colloquially known as external link spamming. If you continue to add this kind of commercial link, eventually an administrator will take action, and block you."

The talk page has a note where she responded Talk:Erotic_sexual_denial, a partial quote, "Misplaced Pages offers a valuable service to me. I would like people to come to my site and Misplaced Pages is a great way to get people interested in erotic sexual denial to come to it.

My issue with the administrators is if anybody can edit the paper, then anybody can edit the rules. I don't think that by any means am I disabiding by the rules. The page that I have is an erotic denial website. I have people that email me everyday because they are locked up by the lock on my site, and people are generally gracious. I have adwords to get traffic to the site, and I have advertisements to pay for the advertsiing."

Atom 14:48, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I've added the page and her to my watchlist and will keep an eye out. I think there is also a blacklist for links on mediawiki, but I can't help you there. Yanksox 15:11, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

If the spamming persists, I would talk to Naconkantari, since he maintains the MediaWiki spam blacklist and can add the offending links. --Mr. Lefty _{Talk to me!} 17:29, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

While she's actually debating with other editors, she still seems to be just spaming articles. --Charlesknight 17:42, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I've submitted the block request on Meta. Either Naconkantari or MaxSem usually gets to them within a day. Fan-1967 17:52, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

You might want to refer her to Wipipedia, where I suspect she will be much more welcome. - Jmabel | Talk 02:35, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Inappropriate username?

According to Misplaced Pages:Username, names "mentioning or referring to illnesses, disabilities, or conditions (e.g. AIDS, Amputation, Asperger syndrome, etc.)" are not allowed. EBOLA rulez (talk · contribs) seems to be a pretty open and shut case. However, this user seems to have been on board for quite some time, without any problems. I'm therefore bringing it up at this noticeboard. Is action needed on this user? Aecis 15:33, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

If they're good-faith, just kindly ask them to change usernames, imo. – Chacor 15:37, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah. I think somone that actually has ebola would be pretty pissed about that username.--KojiDude 16:14, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

If they have ebola, they won't be pissed about it for too long. Raul654 18:11, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Done. Thanks for the advise. Aecis 16:20, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I was wondering... Could 'EBOLA' all caps, refer to something else? a music group or club? Given that that's a lithuanian user, what happens if 'EBOLA' is a town name or music group or school club? (No, really. How does wikipolicy handle things where there's clearly two words of the same spelling that mean different things? (good example i learned in spanish class... queso is cheese in spanish, but donkey in italian) ThuranX 16:45, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

True, but would we allow a user with the name of Fucking, Austria? --Mr. Lefty _{Talk to me!} 18:06, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

To be honest, I don't know. A user whose IP showed he was a resident thereof, and who contributed to articles about the region, migth be entirely appropriate. really, we could have argued 100 years ago that your name was wrong, because lefthandedness was considered undesirable, if not outright evil in some areas. The level of potential offense out to be wieghed in the situation. ThuranX 18:13, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Heh, good point. But, as most users here speak English as a first or second language, we should probably disallow names that are offensive to English speakers, even if unintentionally. For example, there were a slew of usernames a few weeks ago that were obviously offensive, but the owner claimed that they meant legitimate things in other languages. It was obvious nonsense, but even if it were true, they should still be blocked, because no one wants to see a User:FUCK SHIT POO in the edit history, regardless of what it means in some obscure Asian language. --Mr. Lefty _{Talk to me!} 18:21, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

User seems to have taken this in stride, and has already put in a change-of-name request. Newyorkbrad 18:25, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I think many admins / policymakers around here get way too fussy and prissy with "offensive name" rules (despite the fact that "Misplaced Pages is not censored for minors"). Does it really matter so much that somebody picks a name that pisses off some easily-offended prude? Even worse is when people who aren't offended themselves still take it onto themselves to be offended on behalf of hypothetical other people for whom the name might arguably be a slur or obscenity. This is speaking as a person so boring I almost always use my first initial and last name as username / handle on practically all sites, including this one... but I still have a "live and let live" attitude over others' handles. *Dan T.* 18:27, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Changed my username. E_rulez 06:26, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Block uncivil user.

I ask yet again to have LGagnon permanently blocked for incivility and a disgraceful failure to assume good faith.

When I correct his teeming logical fallacies, not to mention his appalling grammar, disgraceful typos and related stylistic infelicities, he resorts to accusations of personal attack. The attack is about the low quality of what he has to say, and how he says it, not about him.

He has been just as foul in referring to Admins as "vandal coddling." Yet no action is taken against him.

Most bizarre of all, I am repeatedly told that "under no circumstance does another editor's behavior excuse repeated incivility of your own." Has LGagnon, who repeatedly achieves blocks against me, ever been told -- even once --: "No matter how uncivil AOluwatoyin is to you, under no circumstances does that excuse repeated incivility to AOluwatoyin"?

Why have I never -- not once -- been upheld in an appeal to block LGagnon? AOluwatoyin 20:51, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

• If as I noticed 3 different admins block you for the same thing, you might want to rethink your behavior. By the way, none of them were LGagnon. If you want to get him blocked, you should provide us with some evidence of the accusations you made using diffs. - Mgm| 21:11, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
  • I agree with MacGyverMagic's comments. If you want administrators to review LGagnon's incivility, you need to provide evidence. Ironically, you have provided clear evidence of your incivility in your note above. — ERcheck (talk) 22:44, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

This is part of the long running fight over Ayn Rand and related pages. All the editors involved know better and yet keep trying different noticeboards every so often hoping to get one of the others in trouble. Find something productive to do folks. Shell 23:55, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I have blocked AOluwatoyin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) for making legal threats and other incivility, e.g. , for three days. This user may warrant an indefinite block as he has only been editing this one article, maybe tendentiously, has been repeatedly incivil, and now immediately after the expiration of his latest block began on an attacking tirade. —Centrx→talk • 07:45, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Name pages and disambiguation

(originally posted on enwiki mailing list, where it was suggested I place it here)

About a week ago, User:JHunterJ revised Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (disambiguation pages) and then began making sitewide changes to articles on human names based on his revisions:

"People who happen to have the same given name should not be listed on a disambiguation page for that name unless they happen to be very frequently referred to simply by the given name (e.g., Beyoncé, Regis). If the name is uncommon enough for such a list to be maintainable (and if it would otherwise meet the WP:LIST guidelines), consider creating the page List of people named Title instead."

I have found that a few name pages I monitor with lists of people by name are magnets for occasional vanity additions, and more common names will have very long lists. However, such lists seem useful and interesting for causal readers, so I'm wondering what people think about balancing utility (especially for causal readers) and page size? Right now the lists are being removed entirely instead of being moved to List of people named___. This has led to protests by some editors, and he's only part way into the A names (actually, I just checked and he's now into B names).

My concern is that a lot of information is being removed when he implements these changes. Sometimes he's adding {{Lookfrom}}, sometimes not, but many of the articles with lists had explanatory information, not just a list. At the very least, I'd like to see that information moved to another page rather than deleted outright. I have asked him to hold off until a few more people had a chance to weigh in, but he has decided to continue. Thoughts? Jokestress 20:53, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I do not understand these changes at all... A disambig is more aesthetically desirable, plus just seems to make more sense. Im reverting his MoS changes, but will leave someone else to fix the mess he made with the disambigs. -M 00:02, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Just a note, my revision to WP:MOSDAB made it less restrictive, not more. My edits since then were indicated by previous guideline as well (most lists of people by given name include more than just those people who are referred to only by that name). The disambigs are much less messy now, particularly when the word refers to more than just a given name, but suspending with the change to MOSDAB. -- JHunterJ 00:40, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

And a follow-up to my own note. Rather than placing this here, I think it should have been placed on the Misplaced Pages Talk:Manual of Style (disambiguation pages). That's where the changes to the MOSDAB that I was following were discussed already; I don't think administrator intervention is necessary when additional editor discussion could be used instead. -- JHunterJ 10:56, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I would like to see JHunterJ's changes to MoS:DAB reinstated. These changes are the implementation of a consensus here.

There is a fundamental problem with names and disambiguation pages. A disambiguation page is a navigational aid. Background information on a name's derivation, history, distribution, etc - what Jokestress calls "explanatory information" - does not belong on a disambiguation page.

The solution, IMO, is for a disambiguation page, Title to link to a separate page Title (name). Title (name) could contain information about the name's derivation, etc, and if appropriate, a list of people who have that name. Disambiguation is about distinguishing between articles with the same title. The list of people with a particular name is clearly not a list of articles with the same title. Title (name) pages would be outside the scope of Misplaced Pages:Disambiguation, and Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (disambiguation pages).

All of the above does not apply where more than two people share both the same surname and given name. A disambiguation page is still appropriate, here. CarolGray 20:12, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Banned user LewisRanja evading blocks

220.1.234.8 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) is Lewisranja (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)'s IP. After being consistently warned over a long period of time to cease making personal attacks and to stop adding unsourced OR to Transphobia, Lewisranja was blocked. He has continued using his IP address despite numerous warnings, although the personal attacks have continued. The IP appears stable. I did not report this at vandalism because it is effectively a block evade. I ask for whatever intervention administrators feel may be helpful; if none is felt warranted, then I accept that. Captainktainer * Talk 00:35, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I would like to second this request, being as I am the attacked party, and along with Captainktainer, one of the main contributers to this article since this whole thing started. Just like LewisRanja's account, the IP (which was used alongside the account all along) is pretty much a single purpose account, is being used to evade a block, and continues to be disruptive. --Crimsone 01:14, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

• Since this IP has no contributions other than those articles and talk pages that got the Lewisranja account blocked, I've blocked it as well. Shell 01:39, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Shell. Crimsone 02:04, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Vrrayman1988

Could somebody please block this user? He is a suspected sock puppet who has already been blocked once or twice before and is in the middle of constantly vandalizing Nintendo. Indrian 01:59, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Indef blocked. JoshuaZ 02:07, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

rbil10 abusing admin tools yet agian

The Battle of Bint Jbeil article has been protected for about a week now (in part due to a request by rbil10). Today, rbil10 unprotected the page (without any announcement or discussion saying he had done so), proceeded to make a series of edits, then re-protected the page. A bit of context is needed to fully appreciate the severity of these actions. About 2 weeks ago, rbil10, while being involved in an edit war (with me and other editors) on that page, abused his admin priveleges to protect the page after it had been reverted to the version favored by him. I asked him to undo his protection and noted that his actions were a violation of very clear WP policy which forbids admins from protecting pages they have been editing. He refused. I filed a WP:ANI report regarding these actions, and he was warned by at least 2 admins that his actions were inappropriate . he then unprotected the page, declared that he was now an active editor of the page, and promised not to use his admin tools on that page: . Well , today we have the aforementioned abuse. This administrator is out of line and something needs to be done about it. 04:32, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

The edits today seem to be mainly style and grammar issues. However, even without prior warnings it would have been better to get an uninvolved admin to make them. Making them after previous warnings is not good. JoshuaZ 04:39, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

He did indeed edit the page and it remains protected, but a review of the protection log indicates he did not unprotect it. Perhaps he edited it, while protected, by mistake. In any case, have you asked him about this? I'll bring it to his attention. -- SCZenz 04:41, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but isn't the appropriate course of action (as referenced above), to contact the admin first and then post to this page complaining? alphaChimp 04:43, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I consolidated a list of bullet points into a paragraph! Nothing major. Check the diffs. RyanGerbil10(Kick 'em in the dishpan!) 04:45, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I saw this, and I don't think ill was intended. But admins really shouldn't do even basic editing on protected articles; since ordinary users can't, it is an implicit use of our powers,... and can result in complaints exactly like the above. -- SCZenz 04:48, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

What SCZenze said is especially true when one has been previously involved. You should have just asked another admin to do it and/or ok it on the talk page first. JoshuaZ 04:50, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

See also Misplaced Pages:Protection policy#Editing protected pages. -- SCZenz 04:53, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Ryan's clarification

I edited quite on purpose. In the "editing protected pages policy," there is an exception made for spelling and typoes. I simply took it a little bit further and turned a list of bullet points into a paragraph, keeping all of the content and references. I didn't think it was worth contacting another admin for what basically amounted to a formatting issue. RyanGerbil10(Kick 'em in the dishpan!) 05:01, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

It's not a big deal at all, but I think you took it too far. It's easy to understand how other editors of that article—who are locked from making even minor changes, and who presumably disagree with you on the content issues—would be upset by what you did. In the future, I'd recommend getting another admin's help for that kind of change after all—or just solving the content dispute before worrying about reformatting. -- SCZenz 05:04, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. Honestly, I don't see the page being unprotected anytime soon. Seen as how we are trying to write an encyclopedia, I brushed up the article a little bit since it appears admins will be solely responsible for its content for the foreseeable future, and because the article needed some attention. However, I will ask another admin for any edits to the article as long as it's protected. RyanGerbil10(Kick 'em in the dishpan!) 05:08, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Seems reasonable enough. I don't think there was any real ill will on Ryan's part. Remember, most of the people who view Misplaced Pages never even bother to edit. Correcting such difficulties is important. alphaChimp 05:32, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Under these circumstances you should avoid editing the article, and leave it to others. Jayjg 20:03, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

203.129.192.23

Please consider blocking this I.P. for repeated linkspamming despite several warnings. --apers0n 07:34, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

• I've blocked for 48 hours and requested the site to be put on the spam blacklist on meta. - Mgm| 09:07, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

NinjaNubian

I have reported this user to WP:AIV, but they told me to go here. Repeatedly vandalizing both Alpha Phi Alpha article.

Copy of discussion below.

• NinjaNubian (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) repeatedly damaging FA-Class Alpha Phi Alpha article. Has been warned through edit summary and on talk page repeatedly. Added spam on my discussion page. Also, has been banned before for vandalism. Bearly541 07:09, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Looks more like a content dispute, to me. You might consider dispute resolution or 3O instead. Luna Santin 07:19, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
    • Used SOCKPUPPET 64.131.205.160 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) in previous vandalism. He was reason why Alpha Phi Alpha was in protection status. Bearly541 07:23, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
      • He appears willing to discuss his edits, and it really looks like more of a content dispute, to me. You're welcome to try dispute resolution or a post to WP:AN/I, but I'm of the opinion that this isn't a case of simple vandalism, unless you have something more convincing. Luna Santin 07:26, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
      • No, he is a vandal. Trust me. Please look at IP and his talk page. Also, please protect article to CC's revision, because he deletes timeless efforts without merit. Bearly541 07:29, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
        • He is also vandalizing Kappa Alpha Psi. Bearly541 07:35, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Bearly541 07:53, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

In my opinion, all three users (NinjaNubian, Ccson and Bearly541) have been severely misconducting themselves by constantly edit warring, while they should have gone one step further with a RfC instead. As I am just the one user, I cannot open a user conduct RfC on these guys (which I believe was warranted), but I did open a RfC on the content matter. As I can see, there are several violations of WP:3RR, WP:CIV, WP:AGF and WP:OWN. Errabee 04:00, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

September 11, 2001 attacks

There is a constant restoring of the word "terrorist" to the lead. This is bad practice especialy today. --Cat out 10:06, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

This is being discussed on the article's talk page, and has been discussed in the past. The consensus has been that it's appropriate in this case. The term has been used by Kofi Annan of the United Nations, and news media in the U.K., France, Germany, China, Canada, and the list could go on... There is wide agreement among countless reliable sources that 9/11 was an act of terrorism. Again, this is being discussed on the article talk page. --Aude (talk contribs as tagcloud) 10:09, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

If it's appropriate for the UN, then it should definitely be for Misplaced Pages.--MONGO 10:10, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, NPOV applies. Any concensus not inline with WP:NPOV is void. You can say a list of countries have identified the attack as "terrorist" (peferably place the list on a section rather than lead), you can't label the incident as "terrorist" --Cat out 10:25, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

That would be undue weight to a minority claim.--MONGO 10:36, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I bed to differ. There is a serious community who view the attacks as a part of the campaign against "evil christians". Of course I do not agree with them in any way, but we certainly can't ignore WP:NPOV when it's inconviniant. --Cat out 10:53, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

NPOV does not require coddling fools. --Golbez 10:55, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Nomater whatever the circumstances, I dislike to be treated like an idiot. Please see WP:NPA --Cat out 11:31, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I did not call them idiots, I called them fools. If you are one of them, then so be it. I did not mean coddling you; I meant coddling the minority claim that this wasn't terrorism. NPOV does not require they be represented. --Golbez 11:49, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

... --Cat out 12:25, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

This is a content dispute - so not here (although actually I disagree, 'terrorist' is a value judgement not a neutral description, it is thus an inherently unencyclopedic word. No doubt the UN (rightly IMO) would also describe the attacks as 'outrage' 'inhuman' 'offensive' 'criminal' and generally 'a Bad thing' (and who'd disagree) but those aren't words you'd expect to find in an encyclopedic description).--Doc 10:16, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Its more of a revert war (which I bailed out) this isnt about content. It's simply a breech of WP:NPOV, a nonnegotible policy requiring intervention. I am outnumbered, but I can't let a mistake continue and I do not see any other option atm. --Cat out 10:25, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

As I've said on the talk page, protection is inappropriate given the link from the Main Page, and so anyone who edit wars will be blocked until 12 September. This has been discussed plenty in the past (there are 21 talk archives) and further discussion is of course welcome. Just don't edit war on a main page linked article. --bainer (talk) 10:19, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I am unconcerned with past discussion. Like I said (or tried to say 3 edit conflicts so far) any concensus not inline with WP:NPOV is void. --Cat out 10:25, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Motivation is irrelevant; no-one should edit war, and no-one with bells on, with fudge and sprinkles on top, should edit war on a main page linked article. --bainer (talk) 10:28, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Let's not go here...mainpage or not...sensitive day on a sensitive article. Obviously, I agree about edit warring of course.--MONGO 10:29, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

The difference being that those pages had already been subject to heavy vandalism. This page will of course be protected as needed. --bainer (talk) 10:35, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I obvioulsy have bailed out of the revert war. But the problem still exists. --Cat out 10:44, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

First piece of vandalism, and I re-semi the page, period.--MONGO 10:21, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

MONGO, with due respect, I think you should not be operating admin functions with regard to this page. Please leave it for someone who is less involved. --Doc 10:33, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Are you saying I might be biased?--MONGO 10:39, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

We all are. --Cat out 10:44, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Doc, with similar respect, I think Mongo's judgement is as unbiased as your own. Tom Harrison 12:05, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Yup, and since I've expressed an opinion on the article's content, I won't be (un)protecting it either. --Doc 12:29, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, it was sprotected by Golbez and is now already unprotected by Winhunter. Go figure.--MONGO 12:31, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

What is the POINT of ANB/I when extremely simple requests such as this, the removal of one word (terrorism) is to be ignored? --Cat out 12:27, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I dunno...the point might be for things requiring administrator functions. Dispute resolution is thatta way. Shell 12:33, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

vandalism of Utonagan page

There have been repeated occurences of vandalism on the Utonagan page within Misplaced Pages. These have implied that Utonagan have wolf content or are related to other wolf-look-a-likes who have wolf content. They have also mentioned behavioral problems which do not exist in the breed, and have even gone to the extent as to imply that they originated from alaskan dogs with wolf content.

As the foremost breeder of Utonagan in the country, these have become more than irritating.

The TCP/IP address of the user known to make these changes is: 212.36.181.65

With thanks

Nadia Carlyle

www.twatha-utonagan.com

Inappropriate username

User:Tuh Ai Chu Tia has an inappropriate username. This is a sexual slur in Hindi language. He claims he is from Vietnam, but I doubt that from his contributions which are in Hindi and are also sexual slurs -- Lost 12:57, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Indef block. Saw it also -- Samir धर्म 12:58, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Looks like Redvers beat me -- Samir धर्म 13:00, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Plautus satire

I'm not sure whether this is an AN/I matter, or just something that should be forgotten. This (now-perma)-banned user has spammed a number of Admins (including me) with unblock requests. (Quoted at http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Plautus_satire&diff=next&oldid=74273379 , although that may technically be a copyright violation.) I didn't participate in the last round, but his (6) edits in this round don't see to me to be a violation of the rules, or even of common sense. On the other hand, it looks as if his actions last time warranted a permanent ban, so I'm not really asking for a review. Could someone point me to the RfAr, so I can see a summary? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Arthur Rubin (talk • contribs) .

You can see the completed requests here Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Completed_requests. (I got one of those e-mails too.) What a lovely thing to read on a Monday morning. Antandrus (talk) 15:06, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I think it's clear that PS is beyond rehabilitation. After waiting out his last 1-year ban, he immediately launched into baiting Raul, and even his unblock request includes attacks against Raul. This has been going on literally for years, and it's been mostly forgotten. Let the issue rest. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 15:29, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I've been spammed. Support indef ban. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 20:01, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I believe that he's indeed (as Arthur Rubin relates) been indef blocked and posted here, seeking consensus for community ban. There were no dissenting voices, IIRC. yes... see Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive134#Plautus_Satire ... hope that helps. ++Lar: t/c 20:03, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Based on the contents of the email I just got, I don't think an indef ban is long enough. --Carnildo 20:31, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

It might not make a difference, but it might send a message if we blocked him for a defined period of time, say, 1,000,000,000,000 years :) . RyanGerbil10(Kick 'em in the dishpan!) 20:36, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

This user has been badgering me through email, starting with the same spam from above. Apparently unsatisfied with my well thought out responses, he's resorted to threatening me 'when the revolution comes'. I have copied the email thread to my server right here. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 23:07, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Me as well:  ALKIVAR™ 12:04, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Raul654 and Phil Sandifer have blocked me indefinitely after two one-year bans, I have not even edited a single article since the previous ban expired, and already Raul654 has instigated his personal vendetta against me. He is a menace to wikipedia and an overinflated fat toad with way too much free time on his hands. If you are able to, help me reverse this ban, I have done absolutely nothing to deserve it except defend my edits as vigorously as Raul654 and his pals and alts have done. Help make wikipedia a better place by not only reinstating my editing priveleges but also by helping me get Raul654 removed from wikipedia. He is a destructive influence who lets his personal feelings about people cloud his reason and close his eyes. He is a spiteful, wretched man, let's clear him and his kind off wikipedia. Any reply is deeply appreciated. For two years this bonehead has been harassing me on wikipedia and hiding behind his admin status. I know for a fact not every admin on wikipedia is his friend. Be my friend, help me fight back against this fool.

Plautus Satire

User 71.122.16.231 continuous spamming

The user 71.122.16.231 continuously advertises his commercial web site http://www.ankylosingspondylitishelp.com for the article http://en.wikipedia.org/Ankylosing_spondylitis. It has been continuosly been warned to stop the spamming, but it still continues.

The advertised site is a commercial eBook, without any scientific relevance whatsoever, without any reference to respected scientific journals.

Sensei 14:03, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I've given a final spam warning and will watch the user. Thanks, Gwernol 14:06, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Devout Christian socks confirmed need block.

Socks confirmed by checkuser: Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/Devout Christian#Devout Christian new request

• Superior IQ Genius (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Note Genius instead of Genuis
• Genius Chimpanzee (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I've put the templates on the user pages, but the actual block is needed. --GunnarRene 16:11, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Blocks enacted. RyanGerbil10(Kick 'em in the dishpan!) 16:15, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks --GunnarRene 16:21, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Persistent occasional vandalism from 216.70.37.171

The IP address 216.70.37.171 is apparently used by a proxy server for a school. The edit history and talk page for that IP address show that it has been a persistent, though infrequent, source of vandalism. I just reverted another vandal edit. If this was a single person, they would have exceeded the "third and final warning" by now. Given the multi-user nature of the IP address, and the time between incidents, I'm not sure that rule should still apply. I couldn't find any Misplaced Pages page that gave guidance for cases like this. I figured I should bring it to somebody's attention, so I am posting here. If this is considered too minor to worry about, feel free to ignore. Thanks, all. --DragonHawk 16:46, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Don't indef block me

Don't indefinitely block me... that's no fun at all... but I merely wish to suggest that some of the recent edits to Felipe Calderón may be construed as not being in good faith, which is not say that they are in bad faith... I also wish to put forth the idea that page protection and reversion to the last version by Hseldon10 could possibly be a good idea, which is not to say there are more recent, equally acceptable versions of the page.

Hopefully I'm being politically correct enough that no administrator will indefinitely block me. But considering recent actions taken... who knows... freestylefrappe 17:36, 11 September 2006 (UTC) (P.S. Don't block me)

• Best known as FECAL? Dot dot dot Danny Lilithborne 17:49, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

IP threatening automated vandalism

I'm not sure if this is serious or not (I kind of doubt it) but a recent message on my talk page by a rather angry IP. The whole message is priceless and worth a read in its entirety I'd say, but it says "In my free time, I will vandalize and disrupt Misplaced Pages as much as possible. I'll make minor technical edits that are inaccurate, that your know-it-all admins won't know enough to correct" and threatens to use a "PHP script that uses proxies to automate the vandalism of Misplaced Pages pages." I'm guessing now would be a good time to block immediately :). RN 19:43, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

the talk page has the history behind this as well.. RN 19:44, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Given a 48-hour break from editing. Naconkantari 21:27, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Eh, let him go. The more proxies we identify, the better. Mackensen (talk) 21:33, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

That kind of threat is made all the time. I seriouesley doubt he'll follow through with his little plan.--KojiDude 21:42, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Andrew Lin returns

I think Andrew Lin, aka the anti-soda pov vandal, who is an indefinitely blocked user (see this RFC), is back as User:CME46. For evidence, see this comment on my talk page (particularly the e-mail address). Additional evidence can be found at the user's user page (an odd cocktail of American Idol, "banana wolfing," and the original song "25 Years of Beauty," which is a dead giveaway). · j e r s y k o talk · 13:33, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I've tagged several of the articles created by the user for speedy as well, though there are others. Most of them fit under speedy criteria other than db-banned (as well as db-banned, of course). · j e r s y k o talk · 14:15, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Back again as User:AGLEN. · j e r s y k o talk · 19:56, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Celebrity impersonator

I think Emma-rose-roberts (talk · contribs) should be blocked for having an inappropriate username (as per Misplaced Pages's username policy you are not supposed to use "names of well-known living or recently deceased people"). See Emma Roberts. --Fritz Saalfeld (Talk) 20:10, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Is it possible to give the user notice and a time frame to change their username as well as pointing them where to do it instead of just blocking? This way they are not so razzled by a forceful block. --User:Zer0faults 20:35, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree. It's quite common for fans of a celebrity who is not-so-familiar with Misplaced Pages policies (and who commonly skip disclaimer messages) to adopt the name of said celebrity as their user name. A gentle nudge is better than a big stick in this case. --Deathphoenix ʕ 20:48, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I thought about that, but the according template message for such blocks says that users are encouraged to simply create a new account after the block (which is much easier than changing a username). --Fritz Saalfeld (Talk) 20:53, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, I suppose with a mere two contributions, creating a new account is better, but I wouldn't call this account an impersonator. Most likely, it's just a fan. --Deathphoenix ʕ 13:53, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Lehi (group)

Amoruso (talk · contribs) is soliciting the intervention of others (plus around half a dozen more) in an attempt to remove WP:V-compliant (and in fact extremely well sourced) information and citations from this article whilst also making distasteful personal comments in violation of WP:NPA. I'd appreciate stern intervention to ensure that he desists. --Ian Pitchford 21:25, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Arbitration enforcement needed

We have an outstanding request for arbitration enforcement at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement#User:Terryeo (2). The users involved appear to be under the impression that I'm the one who will be doing the enforcing (blocking User:Terryeo for 5 days for a serious violation of an arbitration ruling). However, as I was the one who brought the arbitration in the first place, I presume it wouldn't appropriate for me to enforce it. I'd be grateful if someone could step in to resolve this confusion and take the necessary enforcement action. -- ChrisO 21:54, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Terryeo acknowledged violating his article ban by posting edits to Scientology articles while logged out. A ban of up to 5 days is permitted under the arbitration decision. I have argued for a shorter ban because he admitted it and most of the edits were minor, but there is a good argument that the evasion was deliberate and and he only admitted it when confronted by a checkuser request (which was withdrawn after he admitted it, so there is no record). Maybe one day off for good behavior? Thatcher131 (talk) 22:13, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm no admin, and I'm not on the ArbCom, but after reading it over I think 3 or 4 days would be apropriate.--KojiDude 22:19, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Given the evasive behaviour and the repeated violation of the ban over a three week period, I agree that four days would be reasonable. -- ChrisO 22:40, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I edit in other areas too. I recently created Bridge Base Inc. that article and linked it appropriately at BBO its disambiguation to include it in Contract Bridge. Terryeo 23:47, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

While this is certainly true (and it's commendable that you're trying to widen the range of articles that you're contributing to), it's not relevant to the arbitration violation. -- ChrisO 23:52, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Contributing to a wide range of articles won't really keep you from getting blocked. I've made very significant edits to Dragon Ball articles, and I've also done clean up on many articles that were (at the time) largley un-noticed. I also watch WP:ANI, WP:AIV, and WP:AN3. That didn't stop me from being blocked, though.--KojiDude 23:59, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Repeted sneak-attempts to introduce vandalism to John Seigenthaler, Sr.

I noticed this edit made by user:RoughNeck2000 that at the top looks like a legit edit, but at the bottom introduces the same old libelous stuff the article is famous for. Upon investigating further I noticed the user had claimed to revert IP-vandalism to the page on several occasions, but had actually been making null-edits, leaving the vandalism intact, as here and here and the previous edits by 24.59.193.92 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) that he left in. I have now blocked user:RoughNeck2000 indefinitely, but there are definitely grounds for an IP-check on user:RoughNeck2000 which more than likely is the same as anon:24.59.193.92 in some form, and maybe take this case further. I'll also urge people to help watch out for this kind of very libelous sneak-vandalism in articles like this. Shanes 23:03, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Don't indef block me (2)

Just a suggestion, but reverting the last few edits on Andrés Manuel López Obrador, which might be seen as vandalism, and sincere, but fractured attempts by other anonymous users to revert these possibly-vandal edits, might be a good idea.

Another possibly good idea would be to protect the page. Or, then again, you could randomly accuse long time editors with over 10,000 edits of sockpuppetry and indefinitely block them for suggesting that WP:BLP is, indeed, a policy. No doubt you'll go for the latter with no evidence to support your position. Cheers, freestylefrappe 23:10, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

This is starting to get a little obnoxious. Why are you bringing this here instead of to the article's talk page? For that matter, none of the injunctions passed against you recorded in the RFArs you're involved in appear to restrict you from reverting vandalism. You're just required to maintain one identity given a history of bouncing from username to username, and you were desysopped a long time ago. Seriously... this is starting to smack of disrupting Misplaced Pages's normal function to make a point. Captainktainer * Talk 00:37, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I thought you were an administrator.. why the hell would I bring up concerns about vandalism on the talkpage? I was blocked for: a. Reverting vandalism, and b. Adding references. My history of "bouncing" is necessary because incompetent admins who abused their power, violating various policies, tried to enforce their own POV on less powerful users. My desysopping is completely irrelevant, and you know it... or you dont know it, and you shouldnt pretend to. This is not at all a WP:POINT violation. I'm allowed to be as sarcastic as I want. You don't like it? Then quit Misplaced Pages or establish WP:SARCASTIC to prevent such editing. Cheers, freestylefrappe 02:20, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Even if you had been blocked for what you claimed you had been blocked for, that wouldn't prevent you from pointing out the relevant matters on the relevant talk pages. JoshuaZ 02:27, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I didn't read most of it, but is at least sarcastically annoying and totally unrelated to improving the encyclopedia. —Centrx→talk • 03:28, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Category for middle/elementary schools

I have modified Template:Schools in jurisdiction to remove categories for middle and elementary schools because they encourage articles on nonencyclopedic topics. I am inviting broader review of this, and ideally help speedying (via CSD A7) articles on middle and elementary schools (but not school districts), via currently accepted practice. I don't believe we should have categories that encourage articles that should not be created. --Improv 01:15, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Schools are inherently controversial on Misplaced Pages, so only obvious speedy candidates (like attack pages, no-content pages, or patent nonsense) are speediable. Any school entry on Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion will attest to that. Schools aren't organizations or individuals, and don't fall under A7. --Coredesat talk! 01:19, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

If the template is harmful, nominate it for deletion. Do not modify it so that its useless to the end-user (a navigational template with only one link is rather pointless). That's similiar to page blanking, and is bad. If you oppose the existance of any category, then go to CFD. If you oppose the existance of articles, go to AFD. But, disabling navigational template, is incomprehensible. Also, a7 does not apply to schools, and is designed for articles where there's a clear consensus they shouldn't exist. Please do not try to bypass community discussion and consensus, to remove that which you personally dislike. --Rob 02:22, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Please do not do that Improv, there is not a consensus to do so and your assertion that these topics are non-encyclopedic is incorrect. Silensor 04:25, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Anon IP (Static): Personal attacks against several users, POV editing etc.

OK Before you all jump on me "OMG!!!ONE!!11 USE DISPUTE RESOLUTION" there is already a RFC open on this user. I was content to leave it at that. However, the IP is STILL inserting uncited, blatantly POV edits to several pages despite repeat warning. See talk page User talk:68.35.182.234 for an example.

BTW before I proceed further: apparently the IP is User:Devin79.

Now look at the talk page: The IP is ranting on and on about the users he's edit warring with, (and I'm not one of them, for the matter), threatening them, attacking them, etc. It's incredibly uncivil, and I'm sick of reverting his edits. I issued him Test4, but I think due to the severity of his talk page a block is needed.

See RFC for the user

The IP has been blocked multiple times for 3rr rule, and is the first user I've ever seen to get a Defamation template posted on their page.

Now the conversation on that talk page is not particularly civil from both Jdorney's or Devin79 end, but here are some of the highlights:

"Not to worry...jdorney will not be with Misplaced Pages much longer." "I have informed Misplaced Pages staff about his biased and unprofessional behavior, and have recieved back that Misplaced Pages will look into it. It is sad that Misplaced Pages has to be hampered by a few biased, purposely innacurate Editors, who ignore facts and make up their own...just to support their own one sided views." "I will file another complaint with Misplaced Pages about you, and I will continue to edit this article to ensure that it is professional and not the work of some biased little editor, who is more interested in pushing his own views then he is in the facts." "Either you don't bother to read them, or you read them but ignore them because you are so biased in your beliefs that you only include facts that support them, and in some cases you lie altogether. How in god's name you are allowed to continue to be a Misplaced Pages editor is beyond me" "Get a hobby And stop wasting people's time with things you know nothing about Jdorney 12:13, 10 June 2006 (UTC)" "This is just plain sad. This guy is so biased and pathetic, that he has to immediately revert ANY facts that he decides are "Not in keeping" with his own, highly biased and anti-Republican point of view."

Note: The page is hard to read but it appears the indented conversations are Jdorney and the left aligned ones are Devin79's.

Now, I think some sort of blocking on the IP is in order, as he's been repeatedly asked not to make POV edits without citing sources, or discussing in talk. I'm specifically referring to Special Activities Division, but I haven't really looked into Jdorney's side of the RFC a whole lot. If it were me, I'd suggest 1 week, and if he continues, increase the length by a week each time. Thoughts? ⇒ SWATJester Aim _Fire! 01:47, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Further, I should note that the Devin79 account was blocked for reverting Bot Image removals repeatedly, and warned about the legal implications of doing so, and then warned against using sockpuppets. There are currently allegations against Devin79 that he is using his IP address to get around the 3RR rule on some page: I don't remember which one since I'm only concerned with the SAD page, but its listed in the RFC I believe. ⇒ SWATJester Aim _Fire! 01:49, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

• I took a long look through the contribs and what I see is scary - persistant, intentional, subtle vandalism designed to undermine or defame the articles subjects. They've had more than enough warning - that defame template was from April. I've indef blocked the account and blocked the ip for 6 months. Feel free to adjust as necessary. Shell 03:42, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Wanna nuke some linkspam?

I found an article Internet Marketing Services which looks like blatant advert/linkspam. Doing a special:linksearch I find a bunch of talk pages and user pages with more link spam belonging to users with no edits other than to their own talk and user pages. Some admin needs to track back the links and delete them.

Other links involved include:

• *.creditiskey.org
• *.insidethelionsden.com
• *.keywordcompanion.com
• *.breiterstrom.com

Thanks. Thatcher131 (talk) 02:08, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

• I replaced all of the talk page spam with {{spam}} notices. – ClockworkSoul 03:43, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  • And I whacked a couple more. Also found spam for *.extremebizmakeover.com. james 03:50, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

The WikiProject Spam would love to hear about linkspam you've found. We clear out lots of simple spam through there. Also check out the {{linksearch}} template for linking to the linksearch specialpage. Kevin_b_er 04:29, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Pussy Galore (talk · contribs) behaviour

diffs and behaviour synopsis here:

1. . Removes speedy on article with claim he was right in the middle of improving it.
2. After speedy is put back, He goes to several pages and areas looking for support for removing it even though the individual clearly lacks any remote notability.
3. After being told when a user could remove a speedy , he ignores that and removes it with a vague assertion. . No evidence to support it, even though its already been shown on the talk page there is no notability to this person.
4. Makes claims of huge google results and blames it on "data centers", then continues to make circular arguments and dodge the issue of his claim to evidence of the notability of this individual. His claim to improving the article consists of adding vague claims and unverifiable information to the article in question and not producing anything to support his claim here.

Clearly something off here if you follow his pattern here, and comes across to be trolling to me.--Crossmr 04:12, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I've noticed this person around and observed a certain quality to the general pattern of edits that, in the interests of civility, I will describe as often having a certain "under the bridge" quality about them. Metamagician3000 06:02, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

As you can see on my and Pussy Galore's talk pages, I share Metamagician's concern about the user's attitude. But is there anything wrong with removing the speedy tag? The notice box says to remove it if you intend to fix it. We should probably change that if it's not the behavior we want. Also, the user did edit the article minutes before the speedy tag, so the claim of being in the middle is plausible. I agree the vague claims and general behavior are an issue, but an actual magazine (albeit an unsavory one) published an article on the guy, so I don't think opposing the speedy is in itself unreasonable. William Pietri 06:32, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I gotta agree with Metamagician here. ⇒ SWATJester Aim _Fire! 10:53, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I've indef blocked this user for egregious trolling. I won't reverse anyone who undoes the block, but you should make sure to look at his or her contributions before you do. In nearly every edit he is simply stirring up, dare I say it, drama. Nandesuka 11:22, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps if Chairboy did not visit this users page and accuse them of being a sockpuppet, then misquote policy stating that having alternate accounts is against the rules, the drama would have never began. Oddly I predicted this would happen right after they voiced their support for CB, what an odd series of events. So where can I go to ask a user be unblocked and have the decision reviewed? --User:Zer0faults 12:16, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Just in case people are unaware Raymond Lemme had an article written about him in Hustler on his apparent suicide Featured story: Orlando Weekly Indymedia Examiner --User:Zer0faults 12:46, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Separate issue: why should this user not be blocked for inappropriate user name? --Nlu (talk) 12:59, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Cause that would allow the user to just make a new name. As you can see by their talk page, Chairboy instead was looking at Sockpuppetry accusations instead. I find this odd that Chairboy and Nan both were involved in the CB discussion and Chairboy picks a fight with Galore and then Nan lays the block for "trolling", even though Chairboy appeared on Galore's page first with accusations, nice vice versa. Shh.. there is no cabal. What did Cyde say, we have to stick together? --User:Zer0faults 13:04, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

While in principal there is nothing wrong with removing the speedy tag, it started to strike me as odd when this person spent an hour on various talk pages and discussion pages trying to establish he could remove the speedy tag, but after being told he should provide evidence of notability, he dodged the issue and made a vague assertion about the individual and removed it. I had no idea about this other dispute thats going on, but his behaviour here came across to me as someone who was trolling or playing games as I repeatedly requested that he provide this information, and his only response for a long time was to make up some false claim about how he was getting entirely different search results for the same term.--Crossmr 13:15, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

MaxContent (talk · contribs)may be a sock, see his comments on the AfD. Only edits to that article and the AfD.--Crossmr 13:18, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

So you think an idef block is ok for a user who was having trouble bringing up information on google to refute the speedy tag? I had trouble as well until I stumbled on the hustler article and found out that its best to leave his middle initial out to help get results, as you see I posted 4 articles on him, that doesnt include the numerous blogs that are not WP:RS or sources I was not really familiar with or I knew were bais like DailyKOS. --User:Zer0faults 13:19, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

There are methods to proving if someone is a sock, An/I is not one of them. If you have an accusations it should have been brought to the appropriate forum, especially if that affected your judgement. --User:Zer0faults 13:20, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Hang on - was it an accusation Chairboy made? It doesn't look like one, it looks like a valid request - If a user has sockpuppets that they used to use, maybe they should make an appreciable effort to be friendly, and declare them. I find it hard to believe she forgot the account names, and even if she has, surely it's not tricky to look at an article's history and note them down? It's only polite. HawkerTyphoon 13:29, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes it was, Chairboy misquoted WP:SOCK in stating the user was a "malicious sock" because they had edited under multiple accounts before, accounts the users states have always been abandoned before starting a new one. . --User:Zer0faults 13:39, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Where did I call PG a malicious sock? Care to provide a diff? - CHAIRBOY (☎) 14:30, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

"I'm guessing that despite the language in the beginning of your please that you're actually wanting people to stop accusing you of being a malicious sock, but you don't argue the fact that you are, in fact, a sock puppet." This would be on par with me stating "Copperchair wants people stop calling him a foolish admin, but he does not artugue that he is, in fact, an admin" If this phrasing is permitted please let me know, I will put it to good use. --User:Zer0faults 14:52, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Could you please rephrase that in the form of... english? I'm afraid I don't see the accusation. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 15:32, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Not sure I can, its your quote, if you feel your writing is not understandable as english, that is really your own problem and hurdles you must overcome in your personal life. There are classes available that will help you write better, I can do some research just let me know if you want me to find some for you. --User:Zer0faults 15:39, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

(sigh) Once again, I'll ask you to provide a diff of where I accused PG of being a malicious sock. Your english comprehension joke is quite clever, (golf clap), but it still doesn't provide an example of what I'm looking for. You may wish to re-read the excerpt you posted above with this in mind. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 15:43, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Umm we already covered its your own comprehension, hence why you do not understand your own quote ... I am not sure the joke nor the problem. "If you want people stop thinking you cant read english perhaps you should stop admitting your own quotes arent understandable in english." See the jump from a major to be based off a minor. You stated if he didnt want people thinking he was a malicious sock, then he shouldnt have admitted to having been a sock, though actually he admitted no such thing. He admitted to having other accounts in the past. Again let me know if you need me to do that research for you. See you said he admitted to something he in fact did not, see editing under more then onename is different then having edited in the past under a different name, reading comprehension indeed. You can reference WP:SOCK on instances where its ok to edit under multiple accounts at the same time, which was not the case this time. So the user clearly does not fall under the sockpuppet label. --User:Zer0faults 15:50, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I think I see the nature of your misunderstanding. In the quote above, I said merely that he had admitted to being a sock puppet. You appear to have misread the sentence and interpreted it as me calling him a malicious sock. That's not correct. I've said that there were things he could do to prevent folks from assuming that he's a malsock, but that's certainly not the same as accusing him, no more than telling a teenager "Remember to obey traffic lights" is accusing him of being a criminal. Glad I could be of assistance. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 15:56, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

You are as much of help today as you have been ever. I am glad this is all cleared up and we can both tackle the issues in real life we need to handle. --User:Zer0faults 16:02, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Black billionaires

Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask, but can an administrator please review the deletion debate for Black billionaires and make a judgement call one way or the other? RFerreira 05:05, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Done. I closed it as a decided keep, though if I had to opine in it, I might have said "delete". Grandmasterka 05:42, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Reposting request for removal of indefinite block ofKeepthefactsinwikiplease (talk · contribs · count · logs · page moves · block log)

Hello, AMA advocates Amerique (talk · contribs · logs) and Addhoc (talk · contribs · logs) acting on behalf of Keepthefactsinwikiplease (talk · contribs · count · logs · page moves · block log) have been unable to determine the supposed violations of WP policies that have merited an indefinite block. The blocking admin Nlu (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) has indicated s/he would not contest someone else reducing the block, however s/he is not personally inclined to reduce this block. In this context, we would be very grateful, if there was a further review of this block. Thank you,--Amerique 23:44, 10 September 2006 (UTC) Addhoc 10:41, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I've reduced this block from indef to 1 month, and it is almost over. I'd remind the editor that continued entry of POV material may be considered vandalism, and the perhaps some of our other million articles may be more interesting to edit than StormPay. — xaosflux 05:47, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! Addhoc 11:07, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

75.3.50.41: Requesting Action

In the 25 hours he has been active on Misplaced Pages, 75.3.50.41 has caused widespread disruption throughout WikiProject Abortion, including inflammatory and anti-consensus edits/edit warring in pro-choice, Category:Same-sex marriage, Planned Parenthood, Talk:George W. Bush, pro-life, Guttmacher Institute, John Edwards, Marty Meehan and abortion (possibly more), as well as several violations of WP:NPA on various user and article Talk pages. This is my first time at the noticeboard, but I believe a block is in order. Thank you. --BCSWowbagger 05:37, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I had to step in to stop this IP making edits which amounted to vandalism, and even after that once I went to bed he seems to have continued blatant tendentious editing, which appears to have ended last night with him one revert away from a 3RR violation on pro-choice. He's stopped editing now, but I suspect this isn't the last of him. --Sam Blanning 14:12, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

He's back at it as I type this, making the exact same edits as before. ​​​​​​Auburn​​​​​​​​​​​Pilot​​​​​​ 16:46, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

The user has shown no attempt to compromise and reasons out that his/her view has to be said or no views must be said. The user disagrees that NPOV exists and his hypocrisy between labeling pro-choice not a social justice category while pro-life is shows the user's obvious bias. Gdo01 17:32, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Serial spammer User:Rdplindia

This user's only contributions to Misplaced Pages have been to add links to a commercial website. Everytime the links are added, they are removed by editors citing spam. User continues to add them back, regardless of reverts, now citing them as references rather than external links. ​​​​​​Auburn​​​​​​​​​​​Pilot​​​​​​ 06:33, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Just a quick update: Even after a warning from User:El C, User:Rdplindia has added the link to 2 additional articles. and . ​​​​​​Auburn​​​​​​​​​​​Pilot​​​​​​ 07:05, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I blocked the user indefinitely; all contributions have been spam. Grandmasterka 07:11, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

User:BADMINton

Can someone review his behaviour please? He has been giving people vandalism tags in content disputes, and when I asked him about this, he became rather hostile User_talk:Blnguyen#Personal_attacks.3F, so I would like someone else to have a look in case that I am too involved to act impartially, or at least give the impression of partiality. His posts since then leave me wondering about whether he is serious about editing here. In one edit summary he refers to User:Hornplease as "Horny", for instance. Blnguyen | BLabberiNg 08:25, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Samir issued a final warning. Guy 09:22, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Despite explaining WP:3RR and WP:BLP to him, he continuosly broke 3RR by adding unreferenced and potentially libelous commentry. I've reported him to WP:AN/3RR. --Ragib 09:25, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

The ban is unjustified and User:Ragib should peruse the policy (written in English) once again. Which text was "unreferenced"? Good Bloke 13:56, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

209.78.217.6: Requesting action

209.78.217.6 has repeatedly vandalized several articles over the course of the last few months. (A random sampling of his edits according to his contributions page shows that his edits are typically destructive and vandalizing.) I do not believe it is a dynamic IP (or if it is, it may be like my ISP and have a very long DNS lease, which results in keeping the same IP for months on end), so I recommend he be blocked in accordance with the WP static IP blocking policy. cluth 08:34, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

209.78.217.6 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) is a school IP and has been a source of vandalism (and nothing else I can find) for some considerable time. I have indef-blocked for anonymous users only, and allowed account creation. I have left a meassage on Talk saying this, and cleared out the dozens of old warnings and block messages. Hopefully this will do the trick. Guy 11:15, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

David L. Cunningham bio

David Loren Cunningham (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

There is a section called "The Path to 9/11 controversy which references several articles that should be filed under the film and not under David Cunningham's bio. The writers are using sources that are not verified by David Cunningham, and have many factual errors, such as information from David's The Film Institute. The article leads to others that are also personal opinion rather that objective fact-based journalism. I've corrected it three times, and it reverts back each time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Keiko234 (talk • contribs) 08:57, September 12, 2006 (UTC)

The writers are using sources that are not verified by David Cunningham... Being the subject of the article does not imply veto power over its content. If sources are reliable ones, whether Cunningham approves of them is immaterial. --Calton | Talk 10:12, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

To clarify from my perspective...Keiko234 has been deleting huge swaths of the David Loren Cunningham bio with no rationale given in the edit summary and despite reverts by other users. Kukini 15:38, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Jose Luis De Jesus Miranda

On the article Jose Luis De Jesus Miranda, editors repeatedly insist on categorizing this individual a "Cult leader" when there is no information within the text of the article to back this up, and there are no sources quoted to back this up. These are serious and potentially defamatory accusations about a living person, clearly in violation of WP:LIVING. I have warned the offending editors multiple times, and reverted the article multiple times, but they keep making the change back to "Cult leader." Dr U 09:08, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

This is part of Dr. U's uniilateral campaign against the Category:Cults and Category:Cult leaders. He's already tried this stunt with other articles, including Scientology and Lyndon Larouche, to opposition from different editors. Now he's looking for official cover for his work, it looks like. See to see what he's been up to. --Calton | Talk 10:01, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I have now sourced the claim, which was trivially easy. I hear the sound of a heavy barrow being pushed here. I have left a warning on Dr U's Talk page, which he recently whitewashed. This is clearly one to watch, friends. Guy 10:45, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Bazzajf

Bazzajf (talk • contribs • page moves • block user • block log) has been blocked several times, most recently for a month, for incivility. He has come back, and thus far has made precisely two edits, both of which are incivil. I am wondering whether to (a) warn him, (b) block him again for a week or (c) give up and indef. Guy 10:34, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd go for indef. Right now all he's doing is being incivil towards people, nothing he's doing seems to be even remotely benefiting the encyclopedia, either directly or indirectly. --Lord Deskana (talk) 10:36, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree. I have indef-blocked, unprotected his Talk and asked him if he has any intention of actually contributing to the encyclopaedia. Let's see what he has to say for himself. I hope he does not use this length of metaphorical rope to his own detriment... Guy 11:05, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Good call. - Samsara (talk • contribs) 12:12, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Well he didn't seem terribly happy about it. Guy 15:10, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

ice cream

Dear admins,

I noticed that ice cream has a picture of a man with a sign saying "ninjas killed my family - need money for kung-fu lessons": thumb|I fail to see the Ice cream connection... Quite funny, but perhaps inappropriate? PER9000 13:55, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I would have to say I've never seen Dairy Queen offer that flavor... However, just for reference, vandalism can be reported to Misplaced Pages:Administrator intervention against vandalism instead of here. Still, thanks for the heads up. RyanGerbil10(Kick 'em in the dishpan!) 14:02, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

• I've reverted it and given the user responsible User:=Ben a final vandalism warning. As Ryan says, reporting to WP:AIV will probably get you a more prompt response in future. Demiurge 14:05, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

• I'll add your link to some userpage of mine for future use, keep up the good work :) PER9000 14:17, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

OMG! Someone thanking admins insted of yelling at them, this is unprecedented! Thank you very much for the kind smiley face. RyanGerbil10(Kick 'em in the dishpan!) 14:25, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

AN/I will now promptly self-destruct. --W.marsh 14:30, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

We better give the user a long block so they don't make the mistake of being nice again. JoshuaZ 14:57, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Done. ju66l3r 18:15, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Just kidding...I'm not an admin. :) ju66l3r 18:15, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Personal attack and improper language in image copyright status dispute.

After some dispute on the source and copyright status of an image, User:MrGater used very strong words to ask for an end to the dispute, explaining, among other points, that "Nobody gives a f... anyways". --Abu Badali 14:09, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

• Blocked for 48 hours. —freak(talk) 14:34, Sep. 12, 2006 (UTC)

Is collecting links to contributions harrasment?

On top of User_talk:FunkyFly there is a series of links to Special:Contributions page. Is this considered harrasment (because it gives a "I'm watching you" message) or is it just fine? --Dijxtra 14:38, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I could understand a list of dynamic/shared IPs given to vandalism etc. to help someone periodically review the contribs and take appropriate action. But offhand this seems like a list of people who edit largely Macedonia-related topics, not a list of vandals or anything. Nevertheless I think precident that keeping lists of people, even if your intent is mostly to antagonize by keeping those lists, is not actually against any particular policy. --W.marsh 14:50, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Dijxtra, you should assume good faith, but you know that dont you? It is merely a shortcut to avoid constantly typing usernames.   /FunkyFly.talk_  17:56, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Sweetest Day

Could I get a temporary protect on Sweetest Day on the version here? User:Miracleimpulse is engaging in a POV edit war (you can see the spirited discussion about this article on the talk page or at User:Miracleimpulse's usertalk, complete with claims of "spindoctoring" against myself and other editors). Currently User:Miracleimpulse is appending his disputed version of the page onto the existing page. I don't want to break 3RR and I think a temp protection for a few days will allow the more NPOV version (with disputed tag) to be viewable while a RfC or RfM is pursued, where it appears this seems to be headed.--Isotope23 14:45, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Comment Isotope continues to delete sourced information from the Sweetest Day article. My edits delete nothing from the article. Please protect this version 1 which contains all the facts. Thank you. Miracleimpulse 15:08, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Admins always protect the wrong version. Seems that there is some evidence that you are the one pushing a barrow, Miracleimpulse (see Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/The Sweetest Day Hoax). You have also violated the three revert rule. Guy 15:15, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Suggest community ban of User:Mccready from editing Pseudoscience articles for one month

Mccready (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) has exhausted the patience of many editors of many pseudoscience articles. I suggest a one month ban from editing any pseudoscience article. The ban can be enforced by any administrator with a 31 hour block. Mccready is encouraged to use the talk pages of these articles to make suggestions about ways to improve the article. Many editors of these articles recognize his knowledge on the topics but can not deal with his insistence on editing the article precisely his way. This includes many editors that share his skeptical view about these topics. The other alternatives are a longer block to try and make him understand the need for consensus editing or an arbitration case. The community needs to act now because these articles are losing good editors out of frustration with having to deal with Mccready. I'm encouraging Mccready and the editors of these articles to comment here. Thoughts and other suggestions welcome? FloNight 16:06, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

There seems to be some backstory if I am not mistaken between FloNight and this user and with SlimVirgin. Seems FloNight supported a block that Mccready was unhappy with at one point. --User:Zer0faults 16:12, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I've been somewhat involved in the article and while I agree with a fair bit of Mccready is trying to do he has been stubborn and uncivil. However the article that is the focus of this (Pseudoscience) as a whole is such a complete mess with so much edit warring that I'm not sure Mccready is any worse than many others. No strong attitude either way. JoshuaZ 16:15, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Can someone please ask him, if no penalty is laid out, to stop using popups for reverting. Its creating a page where it looks like he is just reverting to revert, there are no edit summaries in most cases stating what he is objecting to, that kind of reverting may bother other users. --User:Zer0faults 16:22, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

There has been a lot of reverting on all the pseudoscience and related articles for a long time now. Lots of disputed tagging of Category:Psudoscience on various articles, see for example Category:Alternative medicine. This is one of those simmering disputes and I don't think a block of one editor will resolve it. If anything is to be done it should go through RfC at least. --Salix alba (talk) 16:25, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Using popup for revering non-vandalism isn't a good idea. But this hint is even missing from Misplaced Pages:Tools/Navigation popups. --Pjacobi 16:46, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Reversion is clearly warned against in WP:DR, however, which Mccready has been made aware of repeatedly. --Jim Butler 18:17, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

That's not the point. It's the question, whether popups reverting should be restricted to vandalism reverts, as are admin button reverts. --Pjacobi 18:23, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

• I agree with this ban - I have tried to reason with Mccready in the past over pseudoscience categorisation and it is not easy to do, but since his previous ban he has not caused any conflict over this particular issue. I hope such a ban will help him to change his attitude to other editors. --apers0n 17:01, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I support the ban too. I had a similar problem with McCready some months ago, and I'm disappointed to see it has continued with other editors. People have been very patient with McCready, and FloNight and Friday have both tried to help him, so I feel we should trust their judgment about how to proceed. SlimVirgin 17:18, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

• Hmmm. I reviewed a sample of recent edits and found a mix of good and indifferent. For example, removing "Reflexology Works - Case Studies As To Why It Works" from reflexology is perfectly acceptable by me. Perhaps we should instead ban all the fans of these pseudosciences who keep inserting special pleading? Guy 17:51, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

He's exhausted the patience of many there. I support it as well. FeloniousMonk 18:25, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Support, though a "community ban" of one month in a specific subject matter isn't really a community ban, IMO. --Deathphoenix ʕ 18:26, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Samir Bhadva (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

This is a sock puppet account of User:Lazy Bhadva, User:Crazy Bhadva etc etc used only for vandalism. Someone kindly block -- Lost 17:39, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Blocked. --Sam Blanning 17:42, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Aakash Mehta - another sockpuppet, same vandalism, this time to my talk page. Thanks -- Lost 17:58, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Shell Kinney's block of ScienceApologist

I would like to question the block of ScienceApologist (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) by Shell Kinney (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA). The block reason was "POV pishing, removal of sourced information", neither of which are objective or valid block reasons. As far as I can ascertain ScienceApologist was simply editing an article on one of those fringe scientists to be more in line with mainstream scientific thought; rather than being "POV-pushing", this appears to me to be more "NPOV-pushing". As for "removal of sourced information", just because something is sourced doesn't automatically mean that it indefinitely merits inclusion in an article. Articles grow too long, they need to be trimmed, or maybe better information can be found ... regardless, removing some information is a natural part of the editing process, and does not appear to me to be a reason why someone should be blocked. Unless there are some objections I would like to go ahead and unblock ScienceApologist, as it appears to me that this block was inappropriate. I would also caution Shell Kinney to use more care in the future with her admin tools rather than simply blocking someone because she disagrees with him. Your thoughts? --Cyde Weys 17:54, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

A Misplaced Pages:Personal_attack_intervention_noticeboard#ScienceApologist_.28talk_.E2.80.A2_contribs.29 came through the personal attack intervention noticeboard - it wasn't really in the right place, but after a day of looking into the issue it appeared there was a real problem with ScienceApologist pushing a POV on the article, up to and including removed sourced info and even replacing it with negative information from a dubious source. He's continued to edit war insisting on these changes and talk page discussion hasn't done much to help - in addition to incivil edit summaries, gems like Just because something is verifiable does not mean that we must include it when presented with information verifying the subject is a working "visting astronomer" at an observatory as opposed to his preferred "went on a visit to" said observatory. Unfortunately, the pattern outlined at the report, noted in the RfC and evident on the discussion page is that ScienceApologist is after the truth and discarding verifiability in the process. I left a note asking him to stop the behavior - he responded with a straw man on my talk and promptly continued his crusade.

So, in short, I've blocked him for 24 hours for tendentious editing, disrupting the article to push a POV and consistently violating WP:V on the article. His response was a fairly typical "heavy-handed" admin "ignorant" of the situation.... In any case, block here for review/adjustment/comment. Thanks. Shell 17:55, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

You should have put that in the block reason then. As I currently see it, we have some people with strong beliefs on either side of this issue, and they need to meet somewhere in the middle through discussion and consensus. That can't be done if we simply block one side. However, if ScienceApologist is repeatedly reverting back to his preferred version and refuses to discuss, that obviously is an issue, and that should have been in the block reason and if it continues it should go to arbitration. --Cyde Weys 18:04, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I completely screwed the pooch on the blocking summary - I'll be more careful with it in the future. In my defense, I was writing this up here before the block was questioned, but that doens't excuse a sloppy summary. For the record, I'm not involved in the dispute and these folks seriously need to be using dispute resolution. Shell 18:15, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay, that's fine. I'm not going to unblock now ... it does sound like it was deserved. Glad I decided to discuss first rather than revert another admin's actions :-D Cyde Weys 18:17, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Which specific edits does shell consider POV here Considering that the filing was made by an established pseudscience POV pusher, I have to question it's validity. I've reviewed SA's recent edits presented there and though he's been blunt, I see no evidence of "blantant" POV pushing or personal attacks. I consider this block questionable and too late (over 24 hrs after reported at WP:) to be anything other than punitive (blocking is not meant as punishment) and therefore am unblocking him. Please look a little deeper into those making the filings first next time. FeloniousMonk 18:30, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Help with repeated hoax article creator

• L.G. (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Shany2006 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 287radio (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 68.8.29.40 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

I submitted the following for checkuser and result was Declined: "obvious, block away". Can someone help out with this? Thanks.

L.G. is a frequent hoax article creator for fake radio stations (particularly urban-format in the San Diego area). See examples: KFYT FM (AfD discussion), KMBS FM (AfD discussion), KBIT FM (AfD discussion), and KWLD (AfD discussion). That account has not been active since July 20, 2006. At the same time that L.G. was creating and editing hoax articles, they were also constantly edit cycling station descriptors in the List of urban-format radio stations in the United States article as L.G. and as IP 68.8.29.40. A few days ago, Shany2006 arrived and has also acted in exact same manner creating KYMY (a fake station ID) which is now up for AfD as well. Some of their most recent edits to the article attempted to change it to "KWWD" (another non-existent station ID) but without moving the page. Tellingly, the 68.8.29.40 IP just showed up to blank the article (the same thing that occurred last time L.G. got slapped down with the 4 AfDs) as you can see in this diff. I'm including 287radio because of identical edit and content style (even though this time it was creation of an actual radio station in FL and has not gotten involved in hoaxing yet). I believe these sockpuppets (all originating from 68.8.29.40) need to be dealt with so as not to have their constant hoax radio station articles poisoning the site. Thanks. ju66l3r 18:11, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Civility warning

Should an editor receive a warning for this edit summary? Anchoress 18:30, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages noticeboards