Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 00:10, 14 September 2006

Also, has wikipedia decided to change the process? Voting on content, or positions, is kinda different than voting on whether to merge or not. Some things do come down to a yea/nay. Move or don't move. Merge or not. Disambig page, or mentions at the top of the page.
I've also used voting as a way to clarify positions, and I've (nor other people I've seen) never felt bound by the positions put out. Many times I've seen voting break down into, "Yes, but..." And some great clarifications have taken place. I'm thinking about the voting on banning US House IP addresses from editting pages about themselves.
~ender 2006-03-26 19:59:PM MST

There has been a de facto shift toward voting, which is unfortunate but may not be preventable. This page should probably be updated to reflect this trend.

I think you are right that many votes generate useful discussions and deeper understanding -- but that is only insofar as they are not really votes, or insofar as the members choose to subvert the voting process. But when we go into a discussion expecting to vote rather than talk, or when a trial-balloon proposal is greeted with a chorus of automatic "Oppose" votes, real violence is done to the wikiprocess.

Idea: Saying "X is evil" is not really a very helpful guideline. Could this page be redefined as something like Misplaced Pages:Subvert voting, a how-to guide on facilitating thoughtful dialogue in the face of the "let's-vote-on-it" mentality? -- Visviva 12:12, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Mathematics of voting: all systems are broken.

• Mathematics of voting: all systems are broken. see voting system.

I removed the above because it is false. A yes/no vote on a single question is not mathematically broken. I guess that the author of the statement was thinking of multicandidate elections and Arrow's impossibility theorem.--SmokeyJoe 04:10, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

When was this page authorized by consensus?

I looked at the history of the page. It seems that the page is a copy of an essay from Meta-Wiki. When was this page authorized by consensus? How can it be a guideline without any consensus? Bidabadi 19:18, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Ballots are the devil's work?

This has got to be one of the oddest-titled policy-related pages I have seen. The title of this article, if taken seriously, is not suitable for a policy-related document (and if not to be taken seriously, is not suitable for a policy-related document). The article is also fundamentally self-contradictory, as verifying consensus requires some sort of majority vote for an option. It is a useful rule (expressed by Dale Carnegie, for one) that if you ever wish to state something in a negative way, attempt to turn it into a positive before you say it. Following this principle, I come up with the following statements: "Reasoned discussion is good" and "Consensus is good".

On reflection it might be useful to have a procedure for decision making which has two distinct phases. In the first stage, participants are prohibited from indicating their preferred option, but are allowed to state relevant facts and inferences and discuss them with each other. When discussion has died down the second phase, a vote on the alternatives, can take place. Elroch 13:25, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't this "Essay" violate "Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox" and "NPOV"?

I'm a little confused by this "essay" about polls and voting. Doesn't this very article violate some of the central tenants of Misplaced Pages? First, it's just a soapbox for people who don't like polls and/or voting on content. Second, it only presents one point of view--that polls/voting are satanic.

I've seen in many places that simply categorizing discussion into "yea" and "nea" camps helps editors come to a consensus... the neatness makes the discussion easy to follow instead of being a jumbled mess. I'm not saying that voting should be binding; I'm saying that it simply helps move a discussion forward and makes it easy to contribute.

I vote to remove this one-sided essay. (Just kidding). --Sixtrojans 02:55, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages's articlespace is not a soap box, but the metapedia portions such as out userspaces, here, and the Vote for Deletion areas are under no such restriction. The concept of essays is that they are POV, but since they exist in order to provoke thought, it's all right. Essays are not encyclopedic material, they are opinions of certain users on how we should run the Wiki. (Additionally, you are quite capable of adding a dissenting opinion if you so desire.) Also, I think you misunderstand the point of the essay, which isn't that voting has no place whatsoever, it's that it is overused. The whole "evil" thing is a joke. --tjstrf 03:10, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Misunderstanding the word "vote"

According to my dictionary:

vote. (1)(a) A formal expression of preference for a candidate for office or for a proposed resolution of an issue. (b) A means by which such a preference is made known, such as a raised hand or a marked ballot.

Or in other words, many WP procedures (such as AfDs) are what is known as "votes", and the people who participate in them are what is known as "voters". There is an odd canard that floats around Misplaced Pages where people mutter the mantra "(Something) is not a vote", with an apparent ignorance of the meaning of the word "vote".

I suspect a lot of these editors have a particularly constricted experience with decision processes in the world, and were taught rather narrow civics classes (or just picked it up from poor newspaper writers). I think what they have in mind is something like the incorrect notion that "vote" means "decision by simple majority", or at least "decision by exact pre-specified super-majority (or plurality)". Obviously, not much on Misplaced Pages is those things. At the same time, an admin who claims not to count votes on an AfD or other procedural process is either being daft in misrepresenting what they do... or they're being something much worse than daft if they actually do not count the votes. Sure, votes should be contextualized in various ways: are they new editors? are they sockpuppets? do they make useful comments? is there a trend in the voting pattern? did outside events (such as page improvements) occur between one vote and another vote? But to claim innumeracy as some sort of inherent virtue is extremely harmful to process, to fairness, and to consensus.

In defense of this essay, however, it is not principally concerned with those procedures that need be votes. An AfD or an RfA really cannot ever be anything else. However, things like quick polls on article talk pages exist only at the discretion of the editors of those articles. A quick poll may be, and often is, a useful way to gauge sentiment about some editorial issue, but it need not occur; other mechanisms for discussion and agreement exist, notably simple threaded discussion. Inasmuch as this essay recommends that a quick poll should not the automatic, the default, nor the most definitive mechanism for reaching decisions and consensus, it is entirely right. Editors have an collection of tools to use in discussion, and polls are just one among many, and are only the right tool for some jobs. LotLE×talk 20:18, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I would like to propose this for inclusion

The following statement was placed in this article to avoid NPOV and create balance. It was removed by LotLE, who feels that balanced here is not appropriate. I would appriciate commentary.

The Statement

Consensus method is seen by many as inherently unfair, as there is no proper adjudication of the issue at hand. After much (or little) discussion, one or more parties may simply declare "Now that we've discussed things, it is clear everyone agrees with me, we have consensus." Only in cases where two or more strong personalities exist within the group will this be challenged. Even if challenged, the result is usually the declarer or challenger being expunged from the group. This is Alpha Male politics at it's worst.

In it's original form, consensus method has some viablity as it requires that there is no consensus unless there are no objectors, hence the parlamentary term "Consent Agenda". If even one member of a group is opposed, consensus does not exist, and deliberations must continue. However, this version is rarely practiced.

Using voting and polls, the support among the group is clearly measured, and defined in a mathematical way. While politics, preference and bias may factor in voting, that is no less true in concensus method

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.92.152.161 (talk • contribs)

Support inclusion

Oppose inclusion

1. LotLE×talk 19:59, 24 June 2006 (UTC). To my mind, this editorial statement is more-or-less diametrically opposite the sentiment advanced in the essay. Well, maybe not quite "diametric", but definitely a very different position. This type of material would be better fleshed out in another essay such as Misplaced Pages:Consensus is evil.
2. Oppose as it has practically no bearing on the essay at hand. It's also wrong, but that's beside the point. --tjstrf 21:10, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
3. Oppose as the reasoning is insufficiently rigorous and the writing not tight enough. The sentiment itself validly has some place in the article as a minority opinion, I think. Herostratus 08:00, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

JA: I need more clarification of what exactly is being proposed here. Is it the inclusion of the quoted statement on the main page WP:VIE, or something more than that? Thanks, Jon Awbrey 13:52, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

The quick poll is on the inclusion of the quoted statement in the essay. That's it. LotLE×talk 16:36, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Removal of Support and Oppose sections

Wikpedia Policy sates:

Responding to RfCs

Try not to be confrontational. Be friendly and keep calm. Specifically, do not create "disendorsement" sections on RfCs. If you disagree with something someone else has said, you may add your own separate statement discussing how you disagree. Do not create a "Users who do not agree with this summary" section, or the equivalent. This tends be a confrontational act and usually creates more heat than light. Mediate where possible - identify common ground, attempt to draw editors together rather than push them apart. If necessary, educate users by referring to the appropriate Misplaced Pages policies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.92.152.161 (talk • contribs)

Guideline

This was common practice back when it was a page on META rather than EnWiki. It describes the common outcome of a common process, which by definition equates to consensus. Therefore it is a guideline. --Radiant! 16:20, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Whether we want to say that consensus is determined by discussion or by voting of established users, it is clear that consensus is not determined unilaterally. A claim by one editor that something is an accepted or common practice does not constitute consensus. In fact, there is precedent for the use of voting of established users to adopt policies. For instance, the arbitration policy was enacted as a result of the arbitration policy ratification vote. Since this is a contentious issue, it might be advisable to discuss the conversion of WP:VIE into a guideline before decreeing it to be so. John254 16:42, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

• You are, I hope, aware that that vote was two and a half years ago? Also, this guideline does not forbid voting, it strongly argues against it. This is accepted and common practice; for reference, you can watch the categories for proposals and guidelines. It seems to me that your argument boils down to "we have voted at some point in the past and therefore we may not recommend against it". --Radiant! 17:09, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, we have voted on two major policies in the past -- see Misplaced Pages:Three revert rule enforcement as well. In any case, my argument is not "we have voted at some point in the past and therefore we may not recommend against it". My argument is that, given the fact that two major policies have been created as a result of votes, if we want to recommend against voting now, we should have a discussion about adopting WP:VIE as a guideline, rather than simply stating that WP:VIE has long been a common practice. Furthermore, a discussion to determine consensus to adopt a guideline would require participation by many editors, not merely two. John254 17:21, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

• You are being overly bureaucratic over the issue. A statement that describes common practice is a de facto guideline; see WP:3P for how the process works, or as Kim Bruning. We have voted on some policies in the past, and more recently not voted on a larger number of policies. And WhatLinksHere for this guideline shows that it is heavily in use. So yes, it is consensual. --Radiant! 17:38, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Radiant that the non-bureaucratic nature of Misplaced Pages is at the heart of this. To say that something is a guideline is merely to describe its function on Misplaced Pages. Sticking the tag on it is merely a recognition of a de facto state of affairs. We don't need to hold a big discussion prior to sticking the tag on, we just say "this is what we do on Misplaced Pages so it's a guideline." There has to be a compelling reason not to put the tag on in such circumstances. --Tony Sidaway 17:52, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Tony at least has heard my opinion on de facto rules already: they shouldn't exist. By attempting to unilateraly declare something policy, you undercut the support in the process by the lack of openness. The "non-bureacratic nature" of Misplaced Pages is found in the openness of the processes it uses. Dictatorship is of course also non-bureacratic, but I don't believe that's what you meant by the nature of Misplaced Pages.

However, since this essay definitely does approach guideline status in its use, I support a consensus of this officially being made a guideline. --tjstrf 18:13, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose conversion of this essay into a guideline. A complete avoidance of votes to illustrate consensus leaves us without any clear evidence of what the consensus actually is. We are thus left with edit wars in which each opposing side claims -- and legitimately believes -- that their version of a page is the consensus version. The avoidance of votes on policy matters creates problems such as those exhibited on Misplaced Pages:Deny recognition, where there is an edit war over whether the page is actually a guideline or a proposal, whether there is a consensus for enacting the proposal as a guideline, etc. Due to this dispute, the page is now protected. There is even a dispute as to whether the status of the page is disputed! A vote of established users would be an excellent way to resolve the deadlock as to whether Misplaced Pages:Deny recognition is really a guideline. A classic objection to polls is the possibility of sockpuppetry -- however, by limiting voting to established users, almost all sockpuppetry can be prevented. If we declare that "voting is evil" as an official guideline, we will cause many edit wars and other disputes simply because nobody will really know what the consensus actually is. John254 18:51, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
• See the definition of guidelines: Guidelines are not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception. Nobody here suggests a "complete avoidance of votes", soyour argument is a straw man. A vote would be an awful way to resolve WP:DENY, for the very reasons discussed on this page. >Radiant< 19:21, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
• Indeed, enacting WP:VIE as a guideline wouldn't really produce "a complete avoidence of votes", it would produce an almost complete avoidence of votes. Which would create all of the problems that I previously described -- most issues that were deadlocked due to an inability to discern consensus still wouldn't be resolved by voting. John254 19:42, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

A vote doesn't solve that. It is quite valid that a majority vote is not be binding, regardless of whether it was ensured to be purely a vote of established users. It would still be claimed, validly, that a bad policy is still a bad policy; a vote wouldn't solve an edit war over that, only an agreement, which can only be produced by discussion. Your theory of sockpuppets is likewise novel, but the fact remains that while it is trivially simple to discount obvious sockpuppets, there are numerous supposedly established users that are in fact sockpuppets; similarly, any host of tendentious article editors or others with an agenda on this openly accessible and quite popular encyclopedia can easily game the vote. Even if you were to somehow magically ensure that all voters had the fundamental principles of Misplaced Pages at heart, you cannot ensure that they know an issue well enough or have read the discussion about it to make an informed vote. I won't continue now with the several other problems with voting. The only way to make valid decisions is through reasons with reference to the principles of Misplaced Pages. Voting is a romantic but increasingly unworkable notion. —Centrx→talk • 20:19, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

We cannot always act on the basis of "an agreement, which can only be produced by discussion" because there are some issues upon which there will never be any agreement. Of course we attempt to "make valid decisions... through reasons with reference to the principles of Misplaced Pages", but this does not constitute a method of making decisions because there will disagreements how the principles of Misplaced Pages should be upheld in particular cases. If there were really "numerous supposedly established users that are in fact sockpuppets", then it would seem that the use of voting in requests for adminship would produce a dysfunctional process -- supposedly, RFA is not a vote, of course, but very rarely does the candidate become an administrator after receiving the support of less than 75% of the established editors commenting on their candidacy. Similarly, pages are rarely deleted if a majority of established editors endorse keeping them. We have employed vote-like mechanisms in these situations because there is really no other way to produce an outcome that will be widely regarded as correct. Of course, where Jimbo Wales has shown leadership on certain questions, his judgment must be respected. What I take issue with, however, is the "anti-voting thesis" that ordinary editors are somehow empowered to act against the wishes of most editors, to create policy that most editors do not want, and to delete pages that most editors want to keep, based on the claim that the principles of Misplaced Pages are somehow being advanced. Since we disagree on how to apply the principles, the "anti-voting thesis" inevitably leads to anarchy, with every editor edit warring for the version of the page that they favor, and every administrator wheel warring over page deletions based on their personal views of these pages' merits. Editors or administrators who wish to do something that most editors won't like have three avenues of appeal: to Jimbo Wales, to Danny, and to the arbitration committee. Misplaced Pages has, and needs, leaders, who are free to act against the majority if necessary. However, we cannot endure a situation where all editors proclaim themselves to be leaders in their own right. John254 21:36, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Appeal to Danny? Dude, where did that come from? Kelly Martin (talk) 23:27, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

• What you have written here is a clear essay against the Ignore All Rules. The point of VIE is the exact opposite: if you vote, whatever the threshold is, one party loses. Discussion, on the other hand, makes people draw up a meaningful compromise, which means that everybody wins. And that's why one should not vote. >Radiant< 21:52, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Or, even worse, because both parties were too busy pushing and rallying votes, they didn't discuss different possibilities and the reasons for them, so everyone loses. —Centrx→talk • 21:55, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

• I do not see Misplaced Pages:Ignore all rules as a means by which ordinary editors may act against the will of the majority. Instead, WP:IAR simply accounts for the fact that the rules are necessarily written in broad and sweeping language, and cannot possibly anticipate every situation. Thus, there are some occasions upon which it is a good idea to ignore the text of the rules in order to act in the best interests of Misplaced Pages -- when it is apparent that ignoring the rules in question would be widely regarded as the correct action to take under the circumstances (no actual voting is necessary, but what is known about the opinions of most Misplaced Pages editors must be respected). The claim that

  Discussion, on the other hand, makes people draw up a meaningful compromise, which means that everybody wins.

  is an attractive theory; however, many practical applications of Misplaced Pages:Voting is evil, such as the speedy deletion of the Counter-Vandalism Unit even though most established editors in the second MFD nomination supported keeping it, mean that most people lose. John254 22:14, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
• If you are under the impression that MFD is a vote, you are sorely mistaken. >Radiant< 22:33, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
• I also Oppose per John254 Hello32020 22:38, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
  • If you are under the impression that this is a vote, you are also sorely mistaken. >Radiant< 23:04, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
    • I was hoping that was witty irony. Dmcdevit·t 23:10, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I think we have some misconceptions to address here. First, no amount of arguing here will make this page not a guideline (or policy or whatever): it is already generally agreed upon and in practice, and, most importantly, very sensible. The second misconception seems to be that voting and process are the same; this is very wrong. None of the various XfD processes, or RfA, RfM, etc., or even policy creation, while they are processes, are voting processes. In fact, none of our valuable processes are voting at all, for some very good, agreed-upon reasons, which can be conveniently found at WP:VIE, and none of them are intended to be by the community. WP:DENY and CVU are red herrings; if we accept that they were out-of-process, that is a far cry from accepting that VIE is flawed or without support. The speedy deletion of any page cannot reasonably be an application of VIE. The concept applies only to the decision-making process. It goes like this: "How shall we decide?" "Well, not by voting on it, that's for sure." It doesn't suggest against the commuity's will but rather, that voting is not a valid way of determining such. (What you are referring to is a disputed application of ignore all rules.) This page should be marked as a guideline. Dmcdevit·t 23:10, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

The CVU deletion is an application of Misplaced Pages:Voting is evil. The closing administrator in the second MFD nomination stated that "This is not a vote. Arguments do count" -- in other words, arguments for the deletion of the CVU, advanced by an indefinitely banned vandal, were more important than the opinions of most legitimate users. This is "voting is evil" at its worst. John254 23:35, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

It wasn't a vote. The arguments did count. That's a fact, and anyone who disputes that clearly has no idea how decision making processes on Misplaced Pages work.--SB | T 23:40, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure whether "voting is evil" is a guideline or a policy, but it's clearly one or the other. I'm perfectly happy with it being labeled as a guideline. Or a policy. Or whatever. Doesn't really matter, since, well, voting is evil, no matter what template tag you stick on this page. Kelly Martin (talk) 23:27, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Clearly if one is vote-stacking and vote-canvassing (such as the gentleman above), voting is essential in order to win by numbers. How charming. Please stop. Mackensen (talk) 23:37, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it is an accepted and common practice to post information about ongoing discussions on project pages in boldface type -- for example, see , as well as the many other postings about ongoing AFD discussions accessible from the page history of Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Inclusion. It does not appear that administrators have removed these postings, or that members of WikiProject Inclusion have been warned to refrain from such postings -- despite the fact that WikiProject Inclusion is explicitly partisan as to the preferred outcome of AFD discussions. Why, then, is information about ongoing discussions posted on Misplaced Pages:Counter-Vandalism Unit removed, and why am I warned that I must not continue to post it? John254 00:08, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Have we got rid of any guidelines in the last week? In no then standard opistiontion to adding more guidelines applies.Geni 23:38, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Errm, if I understand you right, that's a non sequitur.

Anyway, calling this a guideline will encourage people to jump ahead of the process to set any consensus we reach in stone when it is applicable. Generally we have discussions first, decide what to do then, and finally reach a point where we can be satisfied that most people would support it in a formal poll based on the understanding reached in previous discussions. The danger in making this a guideline is that it would remove the verification process. We need to know that when someone says "the final decision is X" that they aren't trying to pull the wool over our eyes. What we need to do is make a page about the recommended way to make decisions on proposals, (including content about WP:VIE and its counterpoint WP:VINE,) and then make that page a guideline.

Cover all the bases. Do it the Right Way. --DavidHOzAu 00:10, 14 September 2006 (UTC)