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Revision as of 04:52, 16 September 2006

Were he and Tracy Grammer married?

Were he and Tracy Grammer married to each other or just musical partners?

To the best of my knowledge, they were not married to each other, though their relationship has been described as a "marriage of music" and "musical love at first sight." Confusing, I know ^_^. Weien 21:17, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

They always seemed to be pretty coy about this, but then again what does it matter? I found the following on their web site -MrFizyx 22:13, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

THE DAVE CARTER & TRACY GRAMMER STORY - Thursday, December 12, 2002

Tracy Grammer first saw Dave Carter perform at a songwriter's showcase shortly after she moved to Portland, Oregon. "As far as I was concerned, the rest of the room disappeared at that point. I knew instantly that I was in the presence of greatness." They met on their way out the door and by early 1998 had entered into a mutual "marriage in music."

They were not married to each other, as made clear by the fact that Grammer got the rights to the Dave Carter catalogue from his widow. Phil Sandifer 22:20, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Widow? If the Tracy Grammer article is to be believed: Tracy Grammer Music, made arrangements with Elise Fischer, David's sister and copyright owner... In any case, you're probably right that there was not a legal marriage. Ah well, this probably isn't a good place for us to be speculating about these things. -MrFizyx 23:06, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Hm. Lemme check into that - it may have been sister. But in any case, if they were married, such arrangements would not have happened. Phil Sandifer 23:17, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

The Dave & Tracy relationship / Estate management / Song ownership

In answer to previous discussions:

Tracy Grammer met Dave Carter in 1996. By the end of that year, they had begun playing music together. In 1997, a romantic relationship was in bloom. David and Tracy lived together from 1999 to 2002 and referred to themselves in interviews as "partners in all things." They preferred to keep the focus on their music, rather than their romantic relationship.

In May 2002, David moved to an apartment in NW Portland while Tracy stayed in Tigard, Ore. Their romantic relationship was in transition as David began to pursue a gender change. Still, in their last interview with John Platt of WFUV just days before David's death, the two referred to themselves once again as "partners in all things."

David's Estate was administered by his ex-wife, Brenda Howard, from a will dated 1991. Brenda and David remained close friends throughout David's life. However, Brenda had not been involved in David's career and there was considerable acrimony in the settling of this Estate and the dissolution of the Dave & Tracy partnership. Tracy's offer to purchase David's song catalog was rejected and the songs were sold instead to David's sister, Elise Fischer. Elise and Tracy later agreed that Tracy would administer the catalog while Elise maintained ownership. Grammer

You have any citations for any of that? Phil Sandifer 16:21, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I, Tracy Grammer, submitted the above. What citations would you like? - Tracy Grammer

I say this with the greatest respect, to someone I respect and admire even unto the point of awe: Anyone can claim they're you. (It's against Misplaced Pages policy to impersonate a public figure: see WP:USERNAME.)

Look at it from the point of view of this somewhat established Wikipedian--lots of deeply personal stuff, stuff not traceable to any known interviews or public information, including revelations that could potentially be perceived as defamatory (wrongly, let me hasten to add, but there is still a lot of prejudice against LGBT people), is posted from a person whose account was created that same day. It raises some red flags, is all. One explanation is that you are who you claim to be. The other explanation is... less savory. And, since I care about Dave and his oeuvre and want to keep his page accurate, I asked. (I cannot speak for Phil Sandifer, of course, but I do know that 1) he is an admin, and 2) he's been editing Dave's page since waaaaaay before me, so I presume that his motivations for requesting cites were similar to mine.)

Proceeding from the good-faith assumption that you're really Tracy, welcome aboard! Please consider adding your name to the Wikipedians with articles page, as well as asserting your identity on your own talk page. There is also an extant policy on biographies of living people which you may find of interest.

Nightsky 23:25, 10 September 2006 (UTC) (and updated 04:27, 11 September 2006 (UTC))

Yeah... cites? I knew Dave, a little, and I have enormous difficulty believing that he had gender dysphoria. Or that anyone but his parents and sister ever called him "David".  :) Nightsky 22:44, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Why the difficulty believing Dave had gender issues, if you only knew him a little?

As for "David" vs. "Dave," the change to the casual came about just before we started working together in the late 1990's. Before that, he was known as "David" professionally and academically. - Tracy Grammer

See above on 'red flags'.  :) Certainly I didn't know him well (much as I liked him)--he just struck me as a man who was happy and confident within his own skin, that's all. Pre-transition trans people that I have known have tended to be palpably, desperately unhappy. (The "Dave/David" thing was a joke, intended to soften the "feel" of my 9 September post. Sorry if it came across wrong. That wasn't the intent.)

Nightsky 23:25, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Confirmed

I've confirmed via e-mail that User:Grammer is Tracy, and have added the information provided to both this article and Dave Carter and Tracy Grammer after consulting with User:Amgine. Phil Sandifer 18:36, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Querry re: the above on noticeboard at WP:BLPN

I have some concerns about our rapid inclusion of the above into articles. Despite being told that there's nothing to worry about, I've posted a querry at WP:BLPN#Dave Carter. My hope is to hear the opinions of editors that deal regularly with Biographies of Living Persons, but editors here may wish to comment as well. -MrFizyx 23:08, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Response WP:BLP isn't in play here. Short answer: The subject of the article is dead. Long Answer: The spirit behind BLP is to protect living people from defamation in wikipedia articles. These kind of actions require m:immediatism as opposed to m:eventualism philosophy. Since the subject is dead, the risk of of defamation moves from an uphill battle to full WP:SNOW. :) Electrawn

Misplaced Pages can not currently be a reliable source for wikipedia WP:RS. It also can't be used for Original Research WP:OR, however, facts are facts. To include the information on the talk page, move it to a Verifiable, Reliable Source for inclusion on wikipedia. A page the widow creates at say a davecarter.com would suffice. Electrawn 12:48, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

This is a foolish and hair-splitting use of OR - as well as a foolish and hair-splitting use of BLP. The concern about defamation is not a legal concern but an ethical one, and I would hope, for instance, that BLP did not simply walk away from Steve Irwin two weeks ago. As for the use of OR, what practical, as opposed to semantic difference is there between posting to her website and to the talk page. Both are self-published, both are primary sources, both are just as verifiable and reputable. Given that her identity is confirmed - which it is - there is no practical difference here. Application of rules without pausing to think is destructive. Phil Sandifer 13:53, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't see factual backups to explain why interpretations are "Foolish and hair-splitting"? The primary reason BLP exists is legal, not ethical. Ethical reasons are important (Neutral point of view, Reliable Sourcing, Verifiability...etc) but are left sorted out in articles with editors. Persons involved with BLP, WP:BLPP and the noticeboard are looking for four specific defaming things in articles that need to be thrown out NOW, not eventually. Electrawn

The reason we have Verifiability, Reliable sourcing is to prevent "He said, she said" things in wikipedia. Just because two admins say it is so does not mean it is so. There is no way to reliable determine source and accuracy statements made on wikipedia talk pages and accounts by nature of the medium. Misplaced Pages can not be used as a reliable source for wikipedia. Electrawn

BLP walks away significantly from Steve Irwin upon death, but not completely, as defamation against Steve may be defaming to his wife and family as well. As for Dave Carter, I see no defamation against Tracy Grammer.

http://www.marcus-bonsib.com/article.jsp?practArea=20&articleIndex=1

Can You Defame a Dead Person?

In most states, you cannot defame a dead person, because a lawsuit for defamation does not survive the death of the person allegedly defamed. In essence, the reputation of a dead person is left to history. Note, however, that a statement made about a dead person may defame a living person. For example, if someone claims that your deceased mother was not married to your father when you were born, when in fact your mother was married to your father when you were born, it has been falsely claimed that you are a bastard.

So lets conclude. Misplaced Pages talk pages are unreliable, dubious sourcing for an article. No defaming statements are in the article, BLP is not needed. I will archive this at BLP/N. Electrawn 01:09, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Sources

This is an encyclopedia. Finding good references is important. Here are a few good reputable, external sources for Dave and Tracy related articles that other editors might like to pursue. Beware that Misplaced Pages itself is generally not considered a vaild primary source. Original research should not be added to articles. Feel free to suggest others for this list:

• FOLKDJ-L http://www.folkradio.org/ Dave and Tracy songs regularly have and continue to top the lists for folk airplay, someone could do an analysis, statistics date back to 1998. Maybe a look at the year-end stats would do.
• Sing Out! Articles, songs, reviews:
  • v45#1,Sing Out! Spotlights: Dave Carter and Tracy Grammer an article by Matt Watroba
  • Last Courus, v46#3 -- Dave Carter Obituary by Matt Watroba
  • Song's with notes
    • "When I Go" v43? quote here
    • "Tilman County" v44#3
    • "The Mountian" v45#1
    • "Hey Ho" v49#3
  • Album reviews
    • When I Go -SO! v44#2 see bottom of pg 19 in this pdf
    • Jim Henry, One Horse Town v50#2?, Collaboration with Grammer, includes a D. Carter song.
    • More reviews if one looks...
• Paste (magazine)
  • Bio of D&T from 2001
  • Note about Tracy's first solo, actually uses the phrase "partner in all things."
  • Review of Verdant mile (sometime in 2005)
• No Depression #57 May/June 2005, Tracy Grammer feature by Russel Hall contents

-MrFizyx 18:03, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

It is misleading to say that Misplaced Pages is a primary source here. A comment on a talk page is the primary source. Phil Sandifer 18:10, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Was it a wikipedian on wikipedia talk page? -MrFizyx 20:33, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm genuinely baffled as to why you're so insistent on this point. Do you actualyl have any doubts, or is this process for process's sake? Phil Sandifer 20:38, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Its not just about process, we need to get this right. I'll explain more on your talk page. -MrFizyx 21:19, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Do you sincerely think we didn't get this right? Phil Sandifer 21:20, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Mostly right, you are just relying on a source (wikipedia talk) that noone will ever claim as reliable. Electrawn 01:12, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

"Right" counts for nothing. We need verifiability, not truth. --Sam Blanning 02:31, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

The bulk of WP:V was written as an attempt to block specific sources from specific, pathologically bad articles. It was not created with any thought to the general case - the article that is not the target of crazed POV pushers and other nutjobs. It does not and cannot apply as a general case, which is why the vast majority of articles on Misplaced Pages look at it, and then proceed to try to figure out what sorts of sources are reliable for this topic - a practice that extends from the featured articles on down. Please - explain to me what is unreliable or unverifiable. Do you doubt that the post was made to the talk page? That it was made by Tracy Grammer? That she is a reputable source? Which part is problematic, exactly. Explain in terms of the case in front of us - because if policy is blocking a case that there is no reasonable way to doubt, policy is in error, and ought be ignored. Phil Sandifer 02:39, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

More sources

• Dave Carter at AllMusic
• Dave Carter and Tracy Grammer at folkweb.com
• Tracy Grammer's Musical Tribute to a Lost Friend by David Dye, August 2, 2005 on The World Cafe

Possible external links:

• Dave Carter and Tracy Grammer Chords & Lyrics with playing tips from Ron Gritz--my POV: This is great if you're a guitarist. Once I heard Dave himself refer people to this site.
• Dave-and-Tracy Yahoo! Group
• Tracy Grammer Yahoo! Group

-MrFizyx 20:33, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Who is Brenda Howard?

New York Times obituary says "Besides Ms. Grammer, he is survived by his father, Robert Carter, of Tulsa, Okla., and a sister, Elise Fischer, of Lawrence, Kan." No mention of "ex-wife, Brenda Howard" there or here. But we do have an article Brenda Howard. And this says "Tracy Grammer thanks Elise Fischer and Brenda Howard for co-chairing the memorial fund committee". WAS 4.250 11:03, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't know anything about her. But, I would assume that the wikipedia article Brenda Howard, is not about Carter's ex-wife/estate mgr. There doesn't seem to be much information about Carter's Howard, I gather that she is not a public figure. -MrFizyx 14:54, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Re-added content

I have added the content back in, now citing WikiNews, as per Jimbo's suggestion when I contacted him on the matter. I hope this is an acceptable solution to everyone, remembering that part of the purpose of WikiNews was to create a free news source for citation in Misplaced Pages regarding current events. Phil Sandifer 04:52, 16 September 2006 (UTC)