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#::I have been asked to verify the claim that {{xt|it's also strange that his last 2.5 years of deleted edits only contain 6 G11 taggings}}. A scan through Roger's deleted contributions over January alone reveals the following that were tagged for G11 and deleted : ], ], ], ], ] and ]. ] ] ] 13:49, 22 January 2017 (UTC) #::I have been asked to verify the claim that {{xt|it's also strange that his last 2.5 years of deleted edits only contain 6 G11 taggings}}. A scan through Roger's deleted contributions over January alone reveals the following that were tagged for G11 and deleted : ], ], ], ], ] and ]. ] ] ] 13:49, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
#:::Sorry, I forgot to clarify that I checked for main space edits, seeing as those are the ones normal readers actually see. Regards ''']]''' 13:56, 22 January 2017 (UTC) #:::Sorry, I forgot to clarify that I checked for main space edits, seeing as those are the ones normal readers actually see. Regards ''']]''' 13:56, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
#:::{{ec}} PS: You actually helped strengthen my other point though. is not a G11 since it was not ''unambiguous'' advertising but merely a fairly neutrally written piece about a probably non-notable subject. So basically you mention six taggings and one of them was a mistake. One must wonder whether a ] approach to judging candidates is really the best way. Regards ''']]''' 14:10, 22 January 2017 (UTC) #:::{{ec}} PS: You actually helped strengthen my other point though. () is not a G11 since it was not ''unambiguous'' advertising but merely a fairly neutrally written piece about a probably non-notable subject. So basically you mention six taggings and one of them was a mistake. One must wonder whether a ] approach to judging candidates is really the best way. Regards ''']]''' 14:10, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
#::::I can't agree with that, I'm afraid. In my view, the article is a haigography (and probably an autobiography given the username) that cites the front page of some website and Facebook as sources. Certainly, the deleting administrator {{u|RHaworth}} agreed it met the G11 criteria and deleted it. Would it be helpful if I restored that draft so the rest of the community can help reach a decision? ] ] ] 14:17, 22 January 2017 (UTC) #::::I can't agree with that, I'm afraid. In my view, the article is a haigography (and probably an autobiography given the username) that cites the front page of some website and Facebook as sources. Certainly, the deleting administrator {{u|RHaworth}} agreed it met the G11 criteria and deleted it. Would it be helpful if I restored that draft so the rest of the community can help reach a decision? ] ] ] 14:17, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
#:::::With all due respect to {{u|RHaworth}}, I would never agree that a speedy deletion was justified just because he thought so. In my nine years as an admin, I have seen a lot of deletions that ignored the rather narrow boundaries ] sets for admins and if the candidate believes he should follow in this particular admin's footsteps when it comes to speedy deletion, I will happily switch my !vote to a strong oppose in a heartbeat. Your disagreement is noted but wrong. That it's an autobiography might qualify it for A7 if it were in Main Space but for G11 to apply the page's text needs to be completely ("unambiguously") advertising in tone. I ] to its original location for others to be able to understand my comments. Regards ''']]''' 17:52, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
# '''Neutral'''. The candidate seems to have an impressive history, but the first example they give in response to question 4 does not impress me. A few weeks ago a newbie wrote a comprehensive article about a possibly-notable writer (probably a relative) which lacked references, and after his submission was rejected he wrote a mildly critical message to the candidate, who in turn ]. I would expect a potential admin (or indeed any experienced contributor) to thank the author for his effort but point out again policy about references and encourage them to improve the article. It concerns me that the option of telling ''anybody'' here to f-off would even cross his mind. &mdash; ] (]) 11:43, 22 January 2017 (UTC) # '''Neutral'''. The candidate seems to have an impressive history, but the first example they give in response to question 4 does not impress me. A few weeks ago a newbie wrote a comprehensive article about a possibly-notable writer (probably a relative) which lacked references, and after his submission was rejected he wrote a mildly critical message to the candidate, who in turn ]. I would expect a potential admin (or indeed any experienced contributor) to thank the author for his effort but point out again policy about references and encourage them to improve the article. It concerns me that the option of telling ''anybody'' here to f-off would even cross his mind. &mdash; ] (]) 11:43, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
#:Do you have any diffs? —] (]) 12:33, 22 January 2017 (UTC) #:Do you have any diffs? —] (]) 12:33, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
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#::::::I would say more like "Existing admins misbehave ''far worse'', why don't we don't something about them?" but this is the wrong place to have that conversation. ] ] ] 14:19, 22 January 2017 (UTC) #::::::I would say more like "Existing admins misbehave ''far worse'', why don't we don't something about them?" but this is the wrong place to have that conversation. ] ] ] 14:19, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
#:::::::Well, I wrote a comment earlier but scrapped it in favour of leaving people to their own opinions. To summarize my comment; Dodger's actual response was far more cordial than the article creator's own instigating comment. While I understand the distress at having your work put up for deletion that doesn't excuse the accusatory and generally sarcastic instigating comment that was made. Not biting the newcomers does not mean that you must tolerate insults, accusations or abuse - accusations of wrondgoing in this case. By comparison, per WP:BITE, Dodger was cordial if direct (point 5) and postponed responding due to being upset at the tone of the response he received (point 6). I don't expect new editors to be wiki competent in any way, but, I do expect them to behave in an appropriate manner - i.e. not being a ]. I doubt very much that JCMR would have had the guts to speak like that to Dodger's face. Nor for that matter is JCMR a newcomer as such, first edit back in 2011, though there is a five year hiatus after only a few edits. They returned temporarily in August, then November, and then stuck around for a few days in December. ] (]) 14:30, 22 January 2017 (UTC) #:::::::Well, I wrote a comment earlier but scrapped it in favour of leaving people to their own opinions. To summarize my comment; Dodger's actual response was far more cordial than the article creator's own instigating comment. While I understand the distress at having your work put up for deletion that doesn't excuse the accusatory and generally sarcastic instigating comment that was made. Not biting the newcomers does not mean that you must tolerate insults, accusations or abuse - accusations of wrondgoing in this case. By comparison, per WP:BITE, Dodger was cordial if direct (point 5) and postponed responding due to being upset at the tone of the response he received (point 6). I don't expect new editors to be wiki competent in any way, but, I do expect them to behave in an appropriate manner - i.e. not being a ]. I doubt very much that JCMR would have had the guts to speak like that to Dodger's face. Nor for that matter is JCMR a newcomer as such, first edit back in 2011, though there is a five year hiatus after only a few edits. They returned temporarily in August, then November, and then stuck around for a few days in December. ] (]) 14:30, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

=====General comments===== =====General comments=====
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Revision as of 17:52, 22 January 2017

Dodger67

Voice your opinion on this candidate (talk page) (23/1/3); Scheduled to end 05:37, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

Nomination

Dodger67 (talk · contribs) – Roger (Dodger67) has been one of the longest-standing contributors to the Articles for creation project, regularly helping to clear the backlog of drafts and discuss the future of page curation and how we deal with new articles. He's no slouch with content creation either with a couple of GAs under his belt, including Imperial Gift, and being a key player in Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Disability, particularly the social aspects of how a disability affects people.

This is Roger's second RfA; since the first in 2014 he has kept an active CSD log, and is now particularly good at spotting copyright violations (WP:CSD#G12) and blatant advertising (WP:CSD#G11). Most importantly, he got a positive response from a candidate poll last year, where there was a strong consensus that it's time to give Roger the bit. Since then, he has continually shown good judgment in CSDs and AfDs and with people now actively wanting to support an RfA, it's high time we did that. Ritchie333 17:52, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

Co-nomination

I'm very happy to be co-nominating Roger for adminship. With almost 10 years of experience on the encyclopedia, and a great balance of content creation, background work, and helping other users, I think Roger would make a fine administrator. It's hard to find good things to say about Roger that haven't already been said at his previous RfA, ORCP poll, or talk page, but I'll try to summarise the highlights.

Roger has a great history of content creation, having started over 50 articles and edited numerous more, especially in the area of disability, where he does fantastic and important content work. He also spends time reviewing AfC submissions and helping new users; I encourage you to read through his talk page responses where he is always patient and helpful. In his last RfA issues were raised regarding Roger's voting and nominations at AfD, issues that I am confident to say he has taken on board and addressed in the two years since; he now has a good track record at AfD, leaving me confident that he has a good understanding of the relevant policies. Sam Walton (talk) 17:39, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

Candidate, please indicate acceptance of the nomination here: I accept this nomination with thanks to all who have supported and advised me. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 05:31, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Questions for the candidate

Dear candidate, thank you for offering to serve Misplaced Pages as an administrator. Please answer these questions to provide guidance for participants:

1. What administrative work do you intend to take part in?
A: I'd begin with relatively simple tasks such as moving over redirects that fairly frequently are a blockage to accepting new drafts at AFC. The ability to deal with the large amount of obvious junk in the NPP and AFC streams would be useful too. Undeletion for WP:REFUNDs and history merges would enhance my ability to help new contributors create their first articles. The ability to see deleted content will also help to deal with G4 speedy nominations. I'd also help out with uncontroversial mopping up such as clear vandalism and the various administrative backlogs that are a perennial problem. When it comes to the more technically complex or controversial administrative tasks I will at first observe how they are done and ask experienced admins for advice before following suit.
2. What are your best contributions to Misplaced Pages, and why?
A: Without a doubt WP:WikiProject Disability, which I and a few other editors started in June 2010. It has brought an entire field of knowledge to en.WP that it had barely covered before. Prior to the establishment of the WikiProject the vast majority of content about disability and related topics were from an almost exclusively medical aspect. The Project has resulted in more balanced coverage by introducing the Social model of disability and other voices to articles about disability. The Project has also helped increase the number and variety of articles concerning disability - particularly those areas "invisible" when viewed from an exclusively medical POV such as the political, economic, and social aspects of disability.
Other "Content" WikiProjects I am active in are WP:WikiProject South Africa, WP:WikiProject Military History and WP:WikiProject Aviation, as these are topic areas I am interested in and have some knowledge, as well as a fairly decent bookshelf of sources for when Google fails to deliver.
As far as new content creation is concerned my contributions are more modest, I tend to prefer contributing to improving existing articles more than create new ones. I know I am not a composer of scintillating prose, so most of the articles I have created (about 50 so far, see my user page - the X-Tools count list is inaccurate) are fairly basic. One of my strengths is in doing research and finding good sources. I have however taken two of the articles I created to GA - Imperial Gift and South Africa at the 2012 Summer Paralympics (assisted by User:Basement12). I have a further "to do" list of several articles I've created that I will put through GAN. (I also constantly have a handful of drafts at various stages of development in my sandbox.) My content creation has slowed down somewhat in recent years as I have been busy studying toward a degree in Communication Science which took up a lot of my spare time.
My participation at AFC, though sporadic, is also a net gain for the English Misplaced Pages as I have been able to guide many newbies through our rules and processes. My contributions at various help desks has, I believe, also been useful to newbies and thus advanced the cause of editor retention too. I also contribute to various discussions at the Village pumps and other "behind the scenes" venues.
3. Have you been in any conflicts over editing in the past or have other users caused you stress? How have you dealt with it and how will you deal with it in the future?
A: As I have been an active Wikipedian for more than nine years (with about 70,000 edits on my log) it is practically inevitable that I have been involved in a few conflicts. When the situation gets stressful I tend to withdraw, some time out helps to cool down. None of the conflicts I have been involved in (so far) have resulted in blocks or other action against me. I believe my "step away and cool off" strategy is effective and it will remain how I deal with future situations that may become heated. Calling on other Wikipedians (and in future fellow Admins if successful here) to help out, per the dispute resolution policy, can also be an effective way of defusing tension by introducing fresh opinions. I have tended to avoid the "drama boards" but if I do get the mop I will most probably get more involved there as it (inevitably) comes with the job.

You may ask optional questions below. There is a limit of two questions per editor. Multi-part questions disguised as one question, with the intention of evading the limit, are disallowed. Follow-up questions relevant to questions you have already asked are allowed.

Additional question from BU Rob13
4. Could you provide one or two specific examples of conflict you've been a part of to illustrate your "step away and cool off" strategy?
A: I'm afraid this is a very difficult question to answer. How do I show where I chose not to get involved, or find a case somewhere in my contributions log where I stopped my involvement in an issue? It's a bit like trying to answer the "when did you stop beating your wife" question. I'm really trying not to duck this question. Perhaps I could point to the fact that I am only mentioned as an involved party at ANI a handful of times, but what does that actually prove? Or how about looking at the timestamps when someone posted an agressive message on my talk page and I took some time to reply, like this one where instead of acting on the impulse to tell the editor to "f... off!", I chose to let it lie for a few hours to do something else, and eventually replied just before going to bed. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 06:47, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
@Dodger67: Any examples would be good, including content disputes that resolved normally without a terrible amount of conflict, a time you posed an RfC to address a disagreement you had with other editors, etc. I'm asking mostly because RfA voters like to see how you face a situation where someone else disagrees with you (especially if they do so in a hostile manner). This happens to administrators even when we try to avoid it. I do appreciate the one example you gave. You're welcome to provide others or not at your discretion. ~ Rob13 06:57, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
Thanks BU Rob13, I'll try to find some but my editing has been remarkably devoid of conflict recently so it may take some time for me to dig up examples. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 07:14, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
BU Rob13 Here's a good example, after my post appealing for the stick to be dropped I removed myself from further discussion. (Thanks to Mkativerata for finding it) Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 10:49, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
Additional question from Dane
5. You mention that you would like to work in the administrative backlogs. Which specific backlogs would you focus the most attention on? Are there any you would abstain from working on due to being unfamiliar with a process?
A: Some admin backlogs I'd be comfortable working on:Category:Requested edits, Category:Expired proposed deletions, Misplaced Pages:Usernames for administrator attention/Holding pen, certain types of Speedy deletions (the ones that are pretty obvious).
Admin backlogs I'd not touch until I learn more about them:WP:Requests for permissions/AutoWikiBrowser (I've never used AWB), History merges (from what I've seen these appear to be anything but simple), I'd be careful of AFDs that are not really very clear, the DYK queue is another I would first have to learn about.
I'm sure there are many other such tasks that I would first need to evaluate to see whether I'm comfortable doing them or not. Thanks for the interesting question. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 07:16, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
Additional question from Andrew D.
6. I didn't attend your first RfA and so have just been looking to see what went wrong there. There was some fuss about "shitholes" so I investigated that. That issue arose at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Manarcad Church. The swearing seemed to be a minor matter but people seemed to have difficulty finding good sources for this topic and it still rests upon a few citations to The Hindu, which seem quite weak. I just had a look for sources myself and was soon able to find references such as Cultural Heritage of Kerala: An Introduction which says "The wooden altar panel of the St. Mary's Orthodox Syrian church, Manarcad, has been carved on either side with tiny..." and Stark World Kerala which says "Just nine kilometres from Kottayam town is the Manarcad Marthamariam Church, an ancient church believed to have been built over a thousand ...". These and other sources look quite promising. How is it that you missed them? Please explain your current understanding of WP:BEFORE and how you put this into practice. Andrew D. (talk) 09:51, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
A: Andrew Davidson I'm afraid the first part of your question "How is it that you missed them?" is really hard to answer. This event occurred back in August 2013, perhaps the sources you found were not available then? (You have not actually provided a link to them, so I have no idea where you found them.) My understanding of WP:BEFORE is that a proper effort needs to be made to find sources before PRODing or AFDing an article for lack of Notability. I put it into practice by doing exactly that, searching for sources using Google, Google News, Google Scholar and JSTOR when relevant. I can't think of an occasion where I have made a BEFORE mistake after my first RFA. Following BEFORE has even proved useful for my work at AFC; I have occasionally found sources and provided the links to submitting editors, instead of simply declining drafts for lack of notability. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 11:20, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
You'll find Cultural Heritage of Kerala: An Introduction here and here; and Stark World Kerala here. SilkTork 13:14, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
(edit conflict) The first of those sources may be readily found by googling the title. The first hit is Google Books, which is where I found it and the other sources. I usually go to Google Books first because it tends to provide the best sources. And note that WP:BEFORE states "The minimum search expected is a normal Google search, a Google Books search, a Google News search, and a Google News archive search; Google Scholar is suggested for academic subjects". Now, that first source was published in 1978 and so I suppose it was there to be found in 2013. I reckon the most likely source of difficulty in finding it would have been the keywords used for searching. For example, the name of the place seems to be written in various ways and it only became a cathedral in 2004. But common sense might have indicated that there were sources to be found as the article when nominated for deletion said, "The stone inscriptions found at the church reveal that the church was built more than a 1000 years ago. Archeologists have found out that these stone inscriptions were memorial stones set up at the tombs in 910 CE and 920 CE". But if we move on from the issue of sourcing, please could the candidate address another issue which arises in WP:BEFORE – consideration of alternatives to deletion. In this case of the cathedral, the topic might have been merged into a page such as Syrian churches of Kerala, say. Can the candidate say something about this aspect please. To what extent does he do this now? Andrew D. (talk) 14:06, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
Comment: I think that counts as a third question — Iadmc♫ 15:39, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
Additional question from Iadmc
7. Question 1: You seem to be heavily involved in such initiatives as the Helpdesk, the Village pump, the Reference desk, Page Curation and the Teahouse. You also mention NPP, AFC and AFD. How important are each of these to the project? Question 2: What is your precise involvement in these? — Iadmc♫ 13:26, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Question refactored by questioner to be in line with "2 questions only". — Iadmc♫ 15:32, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

A:
Additional question from SilkTork
8. In response to Andrew D. (Q 6) you say "I can't think of an occasion where I have made a BEFORE mistake after my first RFA." Would you like to review the five nominations you have made since that RfA, here, and explain why two of those were withdrawn because you did not do an appropriate BEFORE, and why you didn't mention or notice them when you reviewed your nominations before answering the question? SilkTork 13:39, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
A:

Discussion

RfAs for this user:

Please keep discussion constructive and civil. If you are unfamiliar with the nominee, please thoroughly review his contributions before commenting.

RfA/RfB toolbox
Counters
Analysis
Cross-wiki
Support
  1. Support – I'll start this off with a "yes", based on what I remember about this candidate at WP:ORCP. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 05:44, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
  2. Support - I thought he was ready last time - and now he has even more experience. It's great to work with an editor who follows consensus and takes time to help other editors.—Anne Delong (talk) 06:07, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
  3. Support Considering what I've seen in the review of Roger's contributions, he's fine enough. Lourdes 06:12, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
  4. Strong Support – Excellent editor; has over 78,000 edits including nearly 13,000 deleted edits. He has a over 83% afd percentage and a 100% edit summary usage. He has edited since 2006 and I don't see a reason for me to oppose. His last rfa was over 2 years ago and the issues raised in that rfa are over and done with. He is an outstanding participant in articles for creation reviewing heaps of drafts there. Will be a huge net positive to the Misplaced Pages community. J947 06:50, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
  5. Support as nominator Ritchie333 08:07, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
  6. Support. Clear net positive to the project as an admin, with no red flags. Good luck! Tazerdadog (talk) 08:18, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
  7. Per noms. Ed  08:23, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
  8. Support as co-nom. Sam Walton (talk) 08:42, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
  9. Support - Dodger87 is well qualified to be an administrator, and we need more new page patrollers with the added toolset. Kurtis 09:11, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
  10. Support needs the tools, has more than sufficient experience and no concerns about possible misuse of tools. Valenciano (talk) 09:43, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
  11. (edit conflict) Support – candidate is in pillar 1 of my RfA criteria. My iPad is currently set to Finnish and keeps making false autocorrects so here's something that won't confuse it: Onnea ylläpitäjänä! Linguist|contribs 09:49, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
  12. I supported the first RfA on the basis that I felt opposers were being too harsh on Roger's AfC work. I've gone back over the last six weeks of AfC work and found only one bad call: Frantone Electronics, which shouldn't have been accepted in that state. But AfC is the first line of defence: it is a necessary part of the project and we cannot be too critical of the editors who make difficult judgement calls about exactly where the "just too crap for wikipedia" line lies. Nearly all the recent judgements Roger has made are within an acceptable ballpark. Most of his AfC reviews result in articles being declined, which of course is the default correct outcome. I have one other comment: what is it with candidates needing to say that they do what they can to avoid conflict? I want admins willing to get their hands dirty. One day I'd like to see a candidate go to town on Question 3, but I suppose it's unlikely. Anyway, T=this edit summary, which accompanied a very polite post, suggests that Roger has a bit of sass, which is good, and which I hope to see more of. Good luck. --Mkativerata (talk) 10:06, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
  13. Support We need more admins, see no reason to believe they'd abuse the mop. PeterTheFourth (talk) 11:33, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
  14. Support, why not? Mike Peel (talk) 11:39, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
  15. Support: No issues overall after reviewing his previous RFA. KGirlTrucker81 12:00, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
  16. Support Just the kind of conscientious admin we need. Cloudbound (talk) 12:38, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
  17. Support Indispensible at the Teahouse and other newbie-welcoming venues, as well as at AfC and NPP. I think we need more admins active in those areas. – Joe (talk) 14:17, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
  18. Support - Hard working, trustworthy, fair. The odd tagging mistake doesn't bother me that much. Everybody will make mistakes. The question is if Roger would abuse the tools or otherwise harm the encyclopedia if he got the bit. The answer to that question is almost certainly "no, on the contrary" so give the man a mop. Yintan  14:50, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
  19. Support - I reluctantly opposed last time, but more than happy to support this time. GiantSnowman 15:33, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
  20. Support - Full Rune 15:42, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
  21. Support: Looks good to me! -- Tavix 16:24, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
  22. Support I supported last time, and can't see any reason not to now. As to the 'rudeness' issue raised by SilkTork, I consider Dodger's reply quite acceptable, and wouldn't think of someone who first edited in 2011 as a total newbie even though they failed to give the name of the article they were ranting about and also failed to sign their post. Peridon (talk) 16:50, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
  23. Support After reading through this all, and the previous RfA, I think I will simply repeat one sentence of my previous support. "This editor does tireless, accurate, thoughtful work and always manages to keep a level head. They will make an excellent admin." --joe decker 17:04, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. Oppose. I supported last time, though during the RfA it came to light that Dodger67 has an abrasive and dismissive manner. Now, at the start of this RfA we have evidence that only recently he continues with unhelpful and aggressive behaviour: . I like it when people learn from their mistakes. I am concerned when they continue to make the same mistakes. While we may tolerate such behaviour in our users. We don't tolerate it in admins. SilkTork 12:56, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
    I am also dismayed by this comment "You have not actually provided a link to them, so I have no idea where you found them" as answer to Andrew D.'s question where he names his sources. It's not just the failure to find the sources, nor the failure to read the short paragraph closely enough to read the names of the sources, but that he blames Andrew D. for his own inabilities in the language used: "You have not actually provided a link", and the emotive, impatient "I have no idea". This supports what people felt in the last RfA, and which has already been brought up in this RfA, that Dodger67 has a tendency to be impatient and dismissive of others, particularly when criticised. SilkTork 13:05, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
    @SilkTork: In response to what you first wrote, I looked at that diff, and, in my opinion, the new user wasn't assuming good faith and was quite rude. It reminded me of not long ago when a new user created an article that was promotional in tone (and about someone they knew personally, they later said), which I tagged for speedy deletion. They instantly assumed bad faith, before recreating the article, removing a speedy tag from it multiple times are being warned not to, and then getting blocked. They continued going off on their talk page in an unblock request, after which I left them a final message, which I think was good for me, considering that I can be quite impatient with that sort of thing. To get to the point, I think Dodger responded well on his talk page, perhaps better than I usually would (for the record, you can see the discussion I had with the blocked user on my talk page (I believe it was 11 January) and on theirs). Linguist|contribs 13:45, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
    There will often be differences of opinion regarding civility. Some may find Dodger67's curt manner acceptable in dealing with a new user who was frustrated and uncertain of due process, though we do have guidelines which say we shouldn't be abrasive and rude, particularly to new users, and I support those guidelines. If this was a one off incident, fair enough, but to be doing it just before a new RfA, after he failed his previous one for something similar is not something I wish to see from an admin candidate. As I say, I supported him last time, so I see his positive qualities, it's just that having been made aware of some of his negative qualities, and seeing that he hasn't learned from his previous RfA, puts me in the oppose camp. SilkTork 14:47, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
    I don't actually see any lack of civility in the comment you linked to. On the contrary, he responded to the extremely uncivil posting on his talkpage quite reasonably and he pointed to policy which is certainly not an "unhelpful" thing to do — Iadmc♫ 17:47, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
Neutral
  1. Pending I like the look of the candidate's own work such as stadium (geometry) but his first RfA seemed to fail because he wasn't following WP:BEFORE with sufficient diligence. I have asked Q6 to try to establish how the candidate has improved in this respect. Andrew D. (talk) 10:05, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
    Worth noting that his post-first-RfA AfD percentages are exemplary. I haven't looked in depth, but assuming he wasn't just doing obvious ones that were SNOWy, he's seriously improved. ~ Rob13 10:07, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
    The quality of analysis and debate at AfD is often weak. Consistency with others there might just mean consistently weak too. So, you have to look in depth to judge the quality of the work. I may do some digging myself but, if I were to find a fresh example of poor work, people will tend to badger on the grounds that it's just one example. Let's try a different tack and see what the candidate has to say about this. Andrew D. (talk) 10:28, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
  2. (edit conflict) Neutral, leaning weak oppose The overall contributions and answers to questions look good so far but since the nomination mentioned CSD work, I had to check it of course and found some questionable taggings that while (incorrectly deleted) show that there is some reason to worry:
    Considering that his CSD knowledge re G11 and G12 has been highlighted, it's also strange that his last 2.5 years of deleted edits only contain 6 G11 and 4 G12 taggings. His 13 deleted A7 taggings in the same timeframe contain at least 3 mistakes (see above). His last 4,000 live edits (i. e. all edits from January 2016 to now) contain one(!) speedy tagging in those categories, a G11 mistake. Going back further I only found one A7 tagging for an article that listed two reliable sources covering the subject and a user space G11 tagging while the page was clearly still being worked on. N.B.: I only checked for G11, G12 and A7 taggings in the main space.
    However since the candidate has not expressed a wish to work in this area and his other work seems good, I will stay neutral for now. Regards SoWhy 11:14, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
    I have been asked to verify the claim that it's also strange that his last 2.5 years of deleted edits only contain 6 G11 taggings. A scan through Roger's deleted contributions over January alone reveals the following that were tagged for G11 and deleted : User:Nathanielrichards15/sandbox/Nathaniel Richards, User:Ron7905/sandbox/Ron Franklin - Drifter, User:Microbits123/sandbox, Draft:Social Media Jamaica, User:Aleeq mian/sandbox and User:Joshlegacy7/sandbox/The Noir Group. Ritchie333 13:49, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
    Sorry, I forgot to clarify that I checked for main space edits, seeing as those are the ones normal readers actually see. Regards SoWhy 13:56, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
    (edit conflict) PS: You actually helped strengthen my other point though. This for example (restored diff) is not a G11 since it was not unambiguous advertising but merely a fairly neutrally written piece about a probably non-notable subject. So basically you mention six taggings and one of them was a mistake. One must wonder whether a Russian roulette approach to judging candidates is really the best way. Regards SoWhy 14:10, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
    I can't agree with that, I'm afraid. In my view, the article is a haigography (and probably an autobiography given the username) that cites the front page of some website and Facebook as sources. Certainly, the deleting administrator RHaworth agreed it met the G11 criteria and deleted it. Would it be helpful if I restored that draft so the rest of the community can help reach a decision? Ritchie333 14:17, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
    With all due respect to RHaworth, I would never agree that a speedy deletion was justified just because he thought so. In my nine years as an admin, I have seen a lot of deletions that ignored the rather narrow boundaries WP:CSD sets for admins and if the candidate believes he should follow in this particular admin's footsteps when it comes to speedy deletion, I will happily switch my !vote to a strong oppose in a heartbeat. Your disagreement is noted but wrong. That it's an autobiography might qualify it for A7 if it were in Main Space but for G11 to apply the page's text needs to be completely ("unambiguously") advertising in tone. I restored the page to its original location for others to be able to understand my comments. Regards SoWhy 17:52, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
  3. Neutral. The candidate seems to have an impressive history, but the first example they give in response to question 4 does not impress me. A few weeks ago a newbie wrote a comprehensive article about a possibly-notable writer (probably a relative) which lacked references, and after his submission was rejected he wrote a mildly critical message to the candidate, who in turn called him adversarial and rude. I would expect a potential admin (or indeed any experienced contributor) to thank the author for his effort but point out again policy about references and encourage them to improve the article. It concerns me that the option of telling anybody here to f-off would even cross his mind. — Rwxrwxrwx (talk) 11:43, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
    Do you have any diffs? —MartinZ02 (talk) 12:33, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
    Here is the article, and the response. — Rwxrwxrwx (talk) 12:42, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
    I don't see anything wrong with that. THIS is an actual diff of an actual administrator telling an ordinary user to actually fuck off; furthermore when the matter was brought to my talk page, consensus was that, though ill-advised, it was not directly a personal attack and no action was taken. Ritchie333 13:49, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
    That example sets neither a standard or a threshold for Admin. behaviour. More relevant, it is not comparable to the treatment of a new editor by the candidate. Leaky Caldron 14:06, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
    (edit conflict) So your point is "Existing admins misbehave as well, so we can't judge candidates by that"? Regards SoWhy 14:10, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
    I would say more like "Existing admins misbehave far worse, why don't we don't something about them?" but this is the wrong place to have that conversation. Ritchie333 14:19, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
    Well, I wrote a comment earlier but scrapped it in favour of leaving people to their own opinions. To summarize my comment; Dodger's actual response was far more cordial than the article creator's own instigating comment. While I understand the distress at having your work put up for deletion that doesn't excuse the accusatory and generally sarcastic instigating comment that was made. Not biting the newcomers does not mean that you must tolerate insults, accusations or abuse - accusations of wrondgoing in this case. By comparison, per WP:BITE, Dodger was cordial if direct (point 5) and postponed responding due to being upset at the tone of the response he received (point 6). I don't expect new editors to be wiki competent in any way, but, I do expect them to behave in an appropriate manner - i.e. not being a jerk. I doubt very much that JCMR would have had the guts to speak like that to Dodger's face. Nor for that matter is JCMR a newcomer as such, first edit back in 2011, though there is a five year hiatus after only a few edits. They returned temporarily in August, then November, and then stuck around for a few days in December. Mr rnddude (talk) 14:30, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
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