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:It is also controversial ("most populated city") because different measurements (city proper, urban area, metro area) put London and Paris either above or below the other in terms of total population. This is explained in detail at ]. That's why Darqknight47's edit which states that London is "one of the largest and most populated cities in Europe" is more neutral and less controversial. ] 13:16, 17 September 2006 (UTC) :It is also controversial ("most populated city") because different measurements (city proper, urban area, metro area) put London and Paris either above or below the other in terms of total population. This is explained in detail at ]. That's why Darqknight47's edit which states that London is "one of the largest and most populated cities in Europe" is more neutral and less controversial. ] 13:16, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

:The problem I have is that there does seem to be a very persistent pattern stretching back here that any claim that London is the largest city in the EU, something widely accepted and believed internationally, is edited out by non-British EU citizens. Could this be POV acting itself out? The claims for example of user Hardouin about Paris have been emphatically proven false many many times on WP; there is no doubt whatever amongst population demographers internationally that London is a larger city than Paris in population by all reasonable measures. You practically have to include the whole of Northern France to get anywhere near. The Cacares point is mere semantics; everyone knows London is bigger than Cacares and just what that means. Otherwise perhaps the City of London is in the wrong place and should move to Spain? What we have here could be a long running emphatic anti-English and anti-London bias and POVery thinly dressed up as factual controversy, from French and other continentals with a chronic inferiority complex. Against this background, I suggest we vote instead and seek arbitration. Clearly the repeated downgrading edits on London's status are unacceptably false. ] 13:50, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

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Talk:London/archivebox


Why is there not an Olympic section to this article?

There really should be an Olympic section to this article simply because the Olympic games are going to transform the city and therefore there should be an Olympic section in this article and not just a seperate article.87.113.30.69 13:00, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

There is information already all about London in the Olympic Games in a seperate article. There is too much going on to squeeze into the London article. See London 2012 Olympic bid. However, a brief mention is viable. Simply south 14:33, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

See Also:

This article is in desperate need of a brief mention at least of the Olympic games.87.113.24.112 21:04, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

There is a brief mention in the Sports section. --Dave A 11:55, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes but the article needs to have more than a brief mention.87.112.75.254 15:53, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Look at the Beijing article - the Olympics are only mentioned where relevant, and then only briefly, because the article already has to talk about a lot, and because there is a comprehensive and separate article available at 2008 Olympics. The same is true here - the Olympics will have a big impact on sport, on the transport network and on the districts of London (i.e. east London), and it's mentioned in those sections, but it isn't going to change the government or the layout of the economy, nor will it affect demographics, education or much else in the article. --Dave A 16:21, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I think you will find that the Olympic Games will transform thw whole of the East End of London, a large bit of the city. Also the games are not only in the East of London they are across the whole city. In the west for example Wimbledon, where the tennis will be hosted. Also the Olympics will have an effect on the economy as the value of propert will rise with the arrival of the Olympics, the economy will also be affected due to the large number of tourists. In other words the Olympic games will have a huge effect on London and as the UK as a whole. Therefore it is vital that this article has an Olympic section.87.113.24.102 19:22, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

The Olympics will probably "transform" Beijing more than they will London, and yet the Beijing article is fine mentioning the Olympics where relevant with a link to the detailed article. Yes, there will be a big effect on the Lower Lea Valley, but all of those plans are mentioned in the London 2012 Olympic bid article, and don't need repeating here - this is an article about the *whole* of London, not just part of East London. The Districts section of this article already talks about the regeneration of the Thames Gateway and Lower Lea Valley; going into more detail in this article would just destroy its conciseness.
The effect of the Olympics on any other part of the city will not be significant enough to mention in this article. Such mentions are better off in the relevant article for that area (e.g. Wimbledon).
The Economy section here is for discussing the make-up of the economy of London - financial services etc. This make-up will not be substantially altered by the Olympics - yes, there will be more tourists, but that will just mean a change in the figures mentioned as appropriate.
There's no point repeating information here that is already perfectly at home in the 2012 Summer Olympics and London 2012 Olympic bid articles. A new Olympics section is just not necessary - however, if you think that the Olympics should be mentioned and linked somewhere in the article where it would be relevant, then that's another matter. --Dave A 16:39, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

You fail to understand my point, I do not expect there to be an exact copy of the London 2012 article but I do expect a small sub-section in this article. Also I don't know why you keep on going on about Beijing, I never said anyhting about Beijing and also the Olympic games will transform both cities hugely. In conclusion the Olympic games will affect the whole of the city for many years to come. So a sub-section is vital. Shall I write it myself?87.112.68.209 14:24, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I think you didn't understand Dave's point. The Olympics does greatly affect cities, but not to the extent that it deserves a subsection. There is no similar subsection in Beijing, Sydney or Atlanta. I would suggest that there shouldn't be one at Athens, either. JPD (talk) 15:59, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think you have any idea how much the Olympic Games will transform London. The fact that some of the other Olympic cities do not have a sub-section on the Olympics is irrelevant. Just because they don't have a sub-section it doesn't mean London shoudn't have one. We have to start somewhere and why not here? I would suggest that you two do a little bit more research on the London Olympics and see how much the city will change and then, and only then, can you comment on how much the games will transform the city. Until then I would suggest that you start making plans for an Olympic sub-section.87.113.85.249 10:04, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Also I would like to point out that you are 100% wrong, Athens does have an Olympic Games section. So guess what it looks like your argument has been destroyed. Oh, I love being right. No excuses now there has to be an Olympic sction.87.113.85.249 12:22, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Your rather odd and misplaced arrogance doesn't lend any more credence to your argument.
I am extremely familiar with the London Olympics, having already studied the bid document in great detail, attended presentations by the bid organisers and worked for company that contributed to the bid. The Olympics will have a big impact on transport, on sports and will increase tourist numbers and spend. It will also totally transform the Lower Lea Valley, as already mentioned in this article. We've already covered those bases. What else is there to mention? The Olympics isn't going to change the location of London's districts, or the nature of its economy, or its climate, or its existing history, or its method of governance, or its demographic make-up, or its education system, or its literature, or its shopping and entertainment districts. All that's left to talk about is a detailed description of exactly how the Olympics will affect sport and transport, and how it will transform the huge brownfield site in Stratford, and that's exactly what the 2012 Summer Olympics and London 2012 Olympic bid articles are for.
Additionally, a major factor in the success of the London Olympic bid was that it took advantage of a committed projects, which would have gone ahead without the Olympics - such as the Channel Tunnel Rail Link, upgrades to the Underground, extensions to the DLR and general regeneration of the Thames Gateway. The Olympics was a means of coupling all of these projects together, providing a focus and impetus for their progression, and underpinning their future success. My point is that we don't need to talk any more about such projects because they're already embedded either in this, main article or in the appropriate sub-articles.
I would also like to point out that I never said that Athens didn't have an Olympic games section!! Read my responses above. I said that Beijing did not have such a section for its 2008 games. Athens is different because it has already held the Olympics, and because it was a much smaller city than London with more scope for change to be made. I'd also venture that the Athens article is inferior to this article in quality - it hasn't achieved good article status like this one has. And, as was pointed out to you, Sydney and Atlanta don't have dedicated subsections for the Olympics. Neither does Barcelona, Seoul or Los Angeles. The reason is that these articles mention the effects of their Olympics where it is appropriate, not just gratuitously. --Dave A 16:32, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, you did say Athens had an Olympic section, "I would suggest that there shouldn't be one at Athens". Secondly, what have you got an Olympic section? It would take all of 10 minutes to type. I don't see what you have against the Olympic games. You could of easily typed an Olympic section in the time that you've been debating this. At the end of the day the facts are the following: this article lacks an Olympic section, Athens has an Olympic section therefore we should have one and lastly the Olympic games will transform a large area of the city and provide a legacy for the people of London. So either you can type this sub-section or shall I type it?87.112.67.49 19:44, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Please do not write an Olympics section. Darqknight47 is spot on with his analysis. The games will have an impact, but not one that would justify a separate section. The Athens article is not improved by inclusion of a separate section, and this article wouldn't be either. There have been a number of events in London's history that have had a significant impact on the city, some of them much more so than the Olympic games will. But the article isn't split into different events - it's a holistic look at the city. A section on the games would be out of place and awkward, and detract from the attempt to write an encyclopedic article that respects the subject. --SiobhanHansa 20:20, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I have a simple answer to your comment, you are wrong, it would not be out of place and I want at least 10 different people to tell me that it would be a bad idea and then I will not write the sub-section.Mushimight 22:27, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I think you should take some time to think about basic Misplaced Pages codes of conduct before producing ultimatums such as the one above. Furthermore, you have absolutely no right, on Misplaced Pages or otherwise, to say "you are wrong". Not only is this rude and against the spirit of Misplaced Pages, but it simply detracts from your argument and any legitimacy it may have. Being a wiki, there is nothing to stop you writing a sub-section. However, when there is clear consensus from a number of experienced editors, then that consensus is what remains. Do not disrupt Misplaced Pages to make a point. If you do so and persist, you will be blocked from editing. It is as simple as that. DJR (T) 22:56, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
As Djr xi says, we work by consensus, not ultimatum. It would be easy to dicuss this if you paid attention to what we were saying. Dave did not say that Athens did not have an Olympics section. It was I that said that Athens should not have the section, fully aware that it does have it at the moment. It does not add to the article. Living in the East End, I know that the Olympics will have a great effect, but if you think they deserve a section, I suggest you are underestimating the importance of all the other material contained in the article, as well as not understanding how the article is laid out. JPD (talk) 10:10, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, what I said was not intended to be an ultimatum. Secondly, you have failed to give good reasons as to why the article shouldn't have an Olympic section. Also compare the size of London's article to Paris'. For such a large city it is quite a small article. In other words there is room for a sub-section. Also why are all of you so set aginst an Olympic section?87.112.85.183 10:25, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

In my opinion, Paris is too long. The London article has recently been shortened quite a bit because it was thought to be too long. Apart from that, the article is not and should not be presented in terms of events (current or otherwise), but discusses the city in terms of topics like geography, history, economy, etc. The effect of the Olympics on these aspects of London should be mentioned in these sections, not separated out into a section of its own. JPD (talk) 10:58, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Mushimight needs to take a look at some Misplaced Pages style manuals such as Guide to writing better articles, Article size and Misplaced Pages:Summary style.
Other than that, it's been explained a number of times exactly why we are against having an Olympic section. We've provided appropriate reasons and we have a general consensus. I suggest that Mushimight's time would be better spent elsewhere, rather than in a somewhat futile debate here. --Dave A 12:52, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Just a suggestion. If it is such a concern and you must write something, why not put it in the East London article? Simply south 14:10, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Mushimight has also given you several reasons why this article needs an Olympic section and obviously there is a stalemate but you are not willing to move from your position and neither is Mushimight. So lets call it quits. Also in answer to Simply South's suggestion: the games will affect the whole city, not just the east, for example tennis at Wimbledon and football at Wembley. But before I go I would just like to say that it was very rude of Dave A to tell Mushimight what he or she should be doing with his or her time. Next time Dave A says something like that I think he or she should think about what people who are just looking at this website would think if they saw what he wrote.87.114.29.72 18:34, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

This article needs:

  • Red bus photo
  • Palace soldiers (with that black caps)

Another question posed (or more)

where exactly is the centre of London? Is it Piccadilly Circus? Or is there no actual centre of London (ignoring the whole area inside the inner ring road)? Simply south 16:23, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

It's usually considered to be around Trafalgar Square (there's a small paragraph to this effect in the Area subsection of "Defining London"). This is where road distances on signs around the country are usually measured from. --Dave A 16:26, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
There is a plaque outside Charing Cross station which confirms this (to the left of the Thistle Hotel on a post at the start of Villiers Street if memory serves). Mrsteviec 19:42, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
The exact center of London is the statue of King Charles I on Charing Cross Square. There's a plaque on the pavement a few feet behind the statue which says: "On the site now occupied by the statue of King Charles was erected the original Queen Eleanor's Cross, a replica of whch stands in front of Charing Cross station. Mileages from London are measured from the site of the original cross." You can see a picture of this plaque here: . So I guess the plaque referred to by Mrsteviec is near the replica of Queen Eleanor's Cross, but the actual official centre of London is still the king's statue behind which the plaque I linked to is located. For examples of official city centre in other countries, check Kilometre Zero. It's odd that the official centre of London would have a plaque bearing the name "City of Westminster" by the way. Oh well, another of London's idiosyncracies I guess. Hardouin 20:12, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Where is Charing Cross Square? And why is it odd that a plaque in the City of Westminster should bear the legend "City of Westminster"? I think the Charles staue is actually just off of Trafalgar Square on the Whitehall side. Badgerpatrol 23:10, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
It's odd because you'd assume the centre of London would be in the City of London. Thanks/wangi 17:36, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Should there be a section in the article which displays all the pros and cons of London then gives it an overall mark and should this be done for other cities?

Yes?No?87.113.26.73 17:04, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

No, of course not. See WP:NOR and WP:V among others. Badgerpatrol 17:18, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

But is it not a good idea?87.113.26.73 17:30, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

For another website mabye. Jooler 17:31, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Could someone please explain basically what the rule is? Because i have asked 19 other cities whether there should be a pros and cons section.87.113.26.73 17:35, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Follow the links that I have indicated above. And please try and avoid posting the same material to multiple talk pages in future- it's called spamming and is generally frowned upon. Badgerpatrol 17:39, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
No no no. Its an awful idea which has no place on wikipedia or in any other encyclopedia. siarach 17:43, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

To the original poster, have a look at global cities... I think that's an article based around what you're thinking. Although of course it's not based on users opinion, it's based on verified sources. Thanks/wangi 17:47, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Featured article?

Has this article ever been nominated? It's very, very good. I'd think it a logical choice for featured status. Moncrief 15:06, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

It's achieved good article status and has had a few peer reviews. The quality of the article has increased dramatically in the last few months. One of the things which I think would prevent it from achieving featured status right now is the lead section, which gets edited time and time again and keeps slipping - either by losing some of its conciseness, or by using unsourced statements which aren't backed up by anything in the article. The thing which grates with me is the sentence "London is an international leader..." - international finance is fine because it's sourced, but everything else is dodgy. We can't prove that London is an international leader in any of those areas, although we can say they contribute to its global city status. I change that sentence from time to time to reflect this, but it keeps ending up back here again! I'll try it now and see what happens...
Saying that, I do think it's not far off from featured status, as long as its overall conciseness and quality can be maintained. --Dave A 16:41, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Should there be an architecture section?

Yes? No? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Thebaronoflondon (talkcontribs) 22:22, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Don't forget to sign.

There already is something similar at London#Built environment. Interesting to mention though. Simply south 21:37, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

There is already an Architecture in London sub-article, and as Simply south says, the Built environment section provides a summary which links into that article. There was a discussion in June on this (see Architecture above), although I just noticed that someone added to it recently. The sort of information that they suggest placing here would be much better placed in the Architecture in London article. --Dave A 11:25, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Europe's most populous city

London is easily the most populous city in the EU. Should we not say so in the article? Normalmouth 07:37, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

This has been a big problem and comes up frequently - the current statement that London is "one of the largest and most populous cities in Europe" was designed to avoid arguments over different definitions of the city compared to other European cities. There was an extensive discussion on this only a short time ago - see above. --Dave A 11:29, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

You mean Europe most populous REGION! Almost the whole ENGLISH territory is a metropolitan area, so that one can't easily distinguish ,for example, Liverpool from Manchester and Leeds, and so forth. I think the ACTUAL 'London' is the one that lies in the central part of its 'greater regional' area'.

Re the last comment above: Of course you can easily distinguish the cities of Liverpool from Manchester from Leeds! What a ridiculous comment and as for your "the whole ENGLISH territory is one metropolitan area" couldn't be further from the truth. Have you ever been to England?!

600,000 Imigrants

It is alledged by the government that they Greatly underestimated the amount of migrant workers who were let into the UK and that the original figure of 15,000 was more like 600,000!! This makes sense as to the increase in population of London as the majority of these migrant workers would have gone to London to search for work. From 7.1 million in 2001 to approx 7.5 million in 2005. The government now expects around 360,000 more people when new countries are made part of the EU this year. If this keeps up does anyone reckon, in the next few years, London could once again reach the 8,000,000 mark? dj_paul84 17:04, 25 August 2006

Where does your 15, 000 figure come from? And I don't think it necessarily follows that all new immigrants with potentially meagre resources would automatically head to London, the most expensive city. Badgerpatrol 16:16, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

The problem with the 600,00 figure is that it's for arrivals. Many of those 600,000 will have been seasonal agricultural workers who have since left again. The figures show that only 14 per cent came to London (see here, p. 18). The 15,000 estimate was for net migration. The ONS population data published the other day stated that net migration from all EU states was 74,000 in 2004-05 (see here), so much lower than 600,000. In other words, don't believe all that you read in the tabloids. Cordless Larry 18:30, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

15,000 was the original prediction for the number of migrants that would come from the new members of the European Union, e.g Poland, Latvia etc. which joined in 2004. However, the number of imigrants who did in fact come to the UK is predicted to be around the 600,000. However, I don't really see what this has to do with the London article.Thebaronoflondon 21:33, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, although 15,000 was a net predidiction, whereas the 600,000 is a gross figure, not taking account of departures, so they're not strictly comparable. But anyway, you're right, this isn't the article to discuss this in. Cordless Larry 21:36, 25 August 2006 (UTC)


Religious Observance/Attendance

Hi. I've reworded the sentence regarding religious observance among London's christians being very low. It is factually incorrect because it places all the denominations in one group. Roman Catholic and Christian Orthodox churches are never anything other than packed in London. It is Anglican churches which have a very low general attendance. Iamlondon 01:29, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I've asked for a citation on your change. Is there data available to back up this claim? Thanks, Gwernol 01:35, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
I'll do my best for a citation/citations. I'll go look via Bishops' Conference website. I reworded though because it gives the impression that basically London's christians are one group lacking diversity, and don't attend church. There are two churches on my road, one Anglican, one Catholic. Average weekly attendance at the Catholic one = 2,700 (All services). Average weekly attendance at the Anglican one = Circa 100 (All services, with average Sunday attendance being less than 50). Other than the vast and famous churches of either denomination the above figures would be a good representation of this status quo. But if necessary I can back it up with solid figures. Best, Iamlondon 02:23, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Ok...http://www.cofe.anglican.org/info/statistics/2004provisionalattendance.pdf
http://www.london.anglican.org/TheLondonChallenge
http://www.catholic-ew.org.uk/cathstats/2003stats.htm
Circa 64% of London is nominally Anglica = 5,120,000. Figures of Anglican attendance for London per week = 82,000 ( 1.6% ). Attendance rates for Catholics in London (as for Anglicans) match the national average for the Catholic Church. QED the Catholic churches in the city consistently experience much much higher attendance rates.
The UK's entire Catholic Church attendance rate = 22.8% whereas the Church of England's =1.2% (the Catholic Church's attendance rate is thus 19 times higher than its Anglican counterpart's)
Hope that suffices, Iamlondon 03:01, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Infobox lines

The infobox geography class seems to be good enough, but is there any way of removing the horizontal lines without using the <br> function? I'm thinking in particular of the Geography section, where Area/Population/Density would surely be better without lines between them and the City/Greater London title. Only a minor issue really, but it'd be nice if it could be fixed. DJR (T) 21:51, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

It is easier to read like this. However, I've made it clearer they are sub section titles. Mrsteviec 09:11, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

substituting infobox London

Copied from User talk:Grcampbell:

Hi,
I noticed you've subst:ed infobox London into the actual London article. While it is obviously a single-use template, the entire purpose of its creation was to avoid having the main London article filled with yet more text and thus size. I'm not sure if there's a Misplaced Pages guideline regarding this, but I think the matter should be discussed at Talk:London first. I have copied this message there, and would appreciate discussion to continue there. Regards, DJR (T) 08:09, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Now here I agree. Removing the infobox from the article is a good idea for these reasons. I recommend withdrawing the tfd. Mrsteviec 09:11, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
From Misplaced Pages:Template namespace Templates are used to duplicate the same content across more than one page. You can change a template in one place and it will immediately propagate to the pages that use it.. This is not the case for the template in question, being that it is a single use template. Others like it have already been deleted and others are up for deletion. One such example is Template:Scotland infobox. The Template:Infobox Country was no good for the Scotland article and a simple solution was found. --Bob 15:38, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Sounds like a policy for policies sake to me. If single use templates really must not exist in the template space it can move to London/Infobox and be linked in from there. Mrsteviec 16:02, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
It was moved from London/Infobox to the template space, because having it in the mainspace is against policy for good reason. Single use templates may or may not be a good idea, but using a fake subpage is definitely a bad alternative. JPD (talk) 16:21, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Either alternative is ok with me. This is not the only example of a large article broken up in this way. e.g. List of postal districts in the United Kingdom. Mrsteviec 16:44, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
I've restored the original template in the article. This will cause the TFD message to reappear and will generate some discussion at the deletion page. Mrsteviec 16:55, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

John Lennon Day

Okay dudes, we HAVE to put this thing in here. I mean if it's going to be an international holiday, like Martin Luther King Jr. Day then we HAVE to put this in here, you guys got three days to do it, or I'll put it in here myself. -The Bird

Why's that relevant to the London page? Looking at your talk page, you have a history of vandalism, plus the John Lennon Day page has been deleted, so please don't add a reference to it. Cordless Larry 11:00, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

infobox titling

While the standard does indeed appear to have the title outside the box, doing so causes the title to overlap the infobox on several browsers thus partially hiding it. There have already been many discussions about the merits of standardisation, and I can't help thinking that this is yet another example of where standardisation does not work. The same issue was experience on the United Kingdom article, and the only resolution was the include the title in the infobox (see article). I'd personally like to see this issue resolved on infobox_city so that there is still standardisation, but time is precious and I have little! DJR (T) 08:12, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes I agree that a systemic solution is required, but this must have a standard look with the title appearing outside the box. It must be possible to achieve as, for example, it works properly on other infoboxes e.g. template:Infobox London place. Mrsteviec 21:07, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Cleaned up the heading

I've cleaned up the heading. There is no need to have "London is a leader in arts, culture ect." because everyone knows this and being a major global city, London is obviously good enough to need that sentence to suport it. Also, the bit about demographics and its diverse population is mentioned in the artice, under the demographics section. The reason I removed it is because the heading seems to promote London rather than give info and facts.

No thanks, Jack. There is less info and facts in your version. JPD (talk) 10:20, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

What facts where missing in my version? How about you find away to make it shorter or shove it into an irrelevant section in the article, you're very good at that, especially on Sydney's page.

Hit the road Jackp - haven't you noticed that we are all working together to always remove your edits. They only last a few minutes, why do you bother?. Also, please sign your comments, even when using your not-so-secret IP. --Merbabu 13:05, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Largest city in EU

I reverted Darqnight's change as there is no statistical doubt that London is the largest city in the EU by population and this is more precise and important than the vague statement it was replaced with. More discussion on his talk page.— Preceding unsigned comment added by MarkThomas (talkcontribs)

Reverted the latest absurdly commented change; Cacares Spain for goodness' sake! It's a collection of hamlets. MarkThomas 13:04, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

The following statement is both factually wrong and controversial:
London is the largest and most populated city in the European Union.
It is factually wrong because London is not the largest city in the European Union. There are several municipalities in Europe whose territory is larger than Greater London. The city of Cáceres in Spain, for instance, covers an area of 1,768 km², vs. 1,579 km² for Greater London. This has already been discussed on this talk page.
It is also controversial ("most populated city") because different measurements (city proper, urban area, metro area) put London and Paris either above or below the other in terms of total population. This is explained in detail at Demographics of London. That's why Darqknight47's edit which states that London is "one of the largest and most populated cities in Europe" is more neutral and less controversial. Hardouin 13:16, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
The problem I have is that there does seem to be a very persistent pattern stretching back here that any claim that London is the largest city in the EU, something widely accepted and believed internationally, is edited out by non-British EU citizens. Could this be POV acting itself out? The claims for example of user Hardouin about Paris have been emphatically proven false many many times on WP; there is no doubt whatever amongst population demographers internationally that London is a larger city than Paris in population by all reasonable measures. You practically have to include the whole of Northern France to get anywhere near. The Cacares point is mere semantics; everyone knows London is bigger than Cacares and just what that means. Otherwise perhaps the City of London is in the wrong place and should move to Spain? What we have here could be a long running emphatic anti-English and anti-London bias and POVery thinly dressed up as factual controversy, from French and other continentals with a chronic inferiority complex. Against this background, I suggest we vote instead and seek arbitration. Clearly the repeated downgrading edits on London's status are unacceptably false. MarkThomas 13:50, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
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