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User:Zeraeph

Following a report on AN/I about personal attacks on Talk:Asperger syndrome, Zeraeph was blocked for a week. There has been ongoing abuse by this user directed at SandyGeorgia for months - amongst other things, the allegations are that SandyGeorgia is stalking Zeraeph (in real life as well as on Misplaced Pages), using sockpuppets, and conspiring with administrators. There have been three mediation attempts, a request for checkuser which showed that the alleged sockpuppets were unconnected to SandyGeorgia, and frequent complaints to AN/I. Nobody who has looked at Zeraeph's allegations has come to the conclusion that there is any evidence for them at all, or that SandyGeorgia has done anything to provoke this. I've just extended Zeraeph's block to a month, because she was using her talk page to repeat the allegations despite being warned (by myself and Nandesuka who reviewed the initial block) that her only option now was to open an arbitration case or stop the abuse. Does anyone have any objections to a community ban? Zeraeph's article contributions are instructive. --ajn (talk) 10:37, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

i don't know how to say this politely, so I'll just say it. It's clear that editing Misplaced Pages is interacting poorly with, and perhaps aggravating, the particular issues this person has. A number of the things she or he says (particularly about being stalked for years by Misplaced Pages users, conspiracies reaching back into the past, multiple unrelated people out to "get" her) are classic symptoms of various problems that are very, very serious. Obviously, I don't think Zeraeph's editing is good for Misplaced Pages, but there's a more important issue. While normally I would say that this is the sort of thing that should go through Arbcom, I do not believe that any sort of formal proceeding involving a panel of strangers evaluating her behavior that will drag on for weeks and weeks is going to be healthy for this person. I think the most merciful thing we could do is to shut her down, and do it firmly and quickly.

For what it's worth, I feel that way about User:Doctor Octagon, too, although less strongly. Nandesuka 10:59, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

The incoherence of the allegations and the inability to come up with even the slightest evidence for their reality is also typical. I've had to deal with this sort of thing in real life, and you're right about the best way to deal with it. --ajn (talk) 12:19, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

In addition to the point made by Nandesuka, the user's threatening comments here are extremely serious and support this approach. Newyorkbrad 14:43, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I've been dealing with Zeraeph on a more personal level, through email after an unblock request sent to the Unblock mailing list (for the record, I advised Zeraeph to take the block as an enforced Wikibreak and to be calm when the block is over). When conversing with me, Zeraeph has alternated between being quite calm and being very frustrated with the situation. I know that Zeraeph can be very calm and reasonable when approached the right way, and I also feel that Zeraeph very honestly feels that he (or she?) is being stalked online, off-Wiki as well as on. I think if I can look at what Zeraeph can present to me, I can either provide advice on actions to take, or possibly log an RfAR on Zeraeph's behalf if the information is valid.

As such, I'd like to volunteer to be a mentor (this would be my first time as a mentor), even during the block. I don't think a community ban is the answer. If you feel that Zeraeph will only cause more trouble in his talk page, the solution may be to protect the talk page so he can continue to converse with me. I don't think Zeraeph is ill-intentioned, but rather, feels that he has a valid complaint. I hope that if I can bring this off-wiki, and in private, we can deal with the situation without rubbing too many Wikipedians the wrong way. --Deathphoenix ʕ 15:12, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I have no objections to your trying. You should also contact SandyGeorgia privately; apparently she has been receiving unwanted e-mails regarding Zeraeph, and suspects that A Kiwi (talk · contribs) is involved (see Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/A Kiwi, particularly the talk page). It could be (and this is pure speculation) that Zeraeph is being stalked online, but not by SandyGeorgia. My personal opinion is that this is going to be too complicated to achieve a workable on-wiki solution. Godspeed. Thatcher131 (talk) 15:20, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, your speculation had occurred to me too. For now, I don't think I need to be contacting SandyGeorgia via email just yet. I am open to on-Wiki communication if necessary. I don't want Zeraeph to feel like I am any part of this conspiracy, and for now I am just communicating one-on-one with Zeraeph. Currently, Zeraeph is being calm and reasonable with me (though clearly frustrated with the situation), and that may change if he thinks I'm carrying on any conversations with SandyGeorgia behind is back. I would like to wait until Zeraeph presents valid evidence that it is indeed SandyGeorgia that is doing the stalking. I can promise that I will keep an open mind, examine the evidence clearly, and not do anything rash or without thought. --Deathphoenix ʕ 15:34, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict) :Last month, a situation arose that should have been addressed discreetly by senior administrators and with a minimum of public discussion. Instead, it became the topic of extensive discussion on-Wiki that caused egregious harm to vulnerable editors. Although the specifics here are different, this is an extremely serious situation involving allegations of an 8-year history of stalking, legal threats, potentially delusional scenarios, and psychological issues as mentioned by Nandesuka. I strongly believe in transparency on-Wiki, but there are limits. An RfAr under these circumstances would be a horror show and should not be suggested again. We need to be able to identify and deal with the(rare) sensitive situations like this that need to be investigated and resolved in a highly sensitive and confidential fashion. Newyorkbrad 15:43, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Nandesuka and Newyorkbrad. Zeraeph has been asked several times as part of mediation processes to put forward a coherent, evidence-based statement about what she thinks is going on. All that comes out is the typical conspiracy theory reasoning - the absence of evidence for the conspiracy is firm proof that the conspiracy is real and working well, there are special secret things going on that the "victim" can't explain (for reasons which themselves can't be explained), things are so obvious that a request for evidence is proof of the inquirer having underhand motives for asking the question, and so on. This is typical. I don't think Zeraeph is ill-intentioned, I think she is (literally) deluded. In any case, the abuse of SandyGeorgia has to stop, and on present form an arbitration case would just be used as a platform for further abuse, and would do Zeraeph no good at all. --ajn (talk) 15:54, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Zeraeph's talk page has been protected since this morning, by the way, because she was using it to continue the behaviour for which she had been blocked. --ajn (talk) 15:57, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

That's why I want to bring this discussion off-Wiki, so it doesn't hurt established Wikipedians. If I act as a filter, you can be sure that anything I present is, in my opinion, valid. I won't present anything that I don't think is valid. Right now, I have some pretty good dialog with Zeraeph. If I can keep this up, maybe Zeraeph and I can discuss this calmly. I would like for Zeraeph to eventually contribute positively to Misplaced Pages, but I also don't want for this situation to cause undue stress to Wikipedians. That's why I feel carrying on private dialog with Zeraeph without the threat of a community permaban (just the current temporary block) is best. --Deathphoenix ʕ 16:05, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

If you think things have got to the stage where Zeraeph is willing to use User talk:Zeraeph appropriately, feel free to unprotect it. I wouldn't be at all happy with an unblock unless there is an arbitration case which has gone "live". --ajn (talk) 16:12, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

No, for now I think it's in Zeraeph's best interests to leave the talk page protected for now. I don't want Zeraeph to get into a situation where he (or she) will get blocked for even longer. I'm not advocating an unblock yet (indeed, when Zeraeph submitted an unblock request to the mailing list, I suggested that he take this block as an enforced Wikibreak): I'm only opposing the community ban (which is an indefinite block) as proposed here. I don't think a community bad is the answer here. --Deathphoenix ʕ 16:19, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

It could be (and this is pure speculation) that Zeraeph is being stalked online, but not by SandyGeorgia. I believe this to be true, based on the emails I have, but apparently it "takes two to tango": she has been stalked and has allegedly been a stalker as well. (Witness the threats against me: that she is going to have authorities deal with me in real life.) I'm not convinced that any amount of conversation or mentoring will be able to convince Zeraeph that I am not the stalker, because that person has an AOL account, and I have an AOL account which I use when I am in a hotel that doesn't have another internet connection. I appreciate your efforts, but I believe the other editors have valid points about dragging this out in public considering the issues involved: I, too, have encountered situations like this and have always believed that disengaging is the only way to handle them. I understand your concerns about contacting me privately in order to preserve your role as a mentor, but someone needs to look at these e-mails, and then deal with the AOL editors who appeared in the midst of this mess, complicating it even further. I have repeatedly encouraged those people to keep the off-Wiki situation off Wiki, to no avail. I am fairly certain at this point that the only person who is going to be damaged by all of this is me: yes, the edit history is instructive (and I'm having a lovely vacation :-). It also needs to be understood that Zeraeph's attacks on me began long before she thought I was "her stalker" and before I received the emails (the person emailed me to supposedly support me because of Zeraeph's attacks), so using that now as the rationalization for her behavior doesn't hold water. Best of luck to you, Sandy 16:31, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm... okay, if you feel that I should look at this emails, send me an email at Special:Emailuser/Deathphoenix. I'm keeping an open mind and assuming good faith, on both sides. --Deathphoenix ʕ 16:41, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

With all due respect, someone else needs to look at them. While I understand and accept that you have an open mind and are assuming good faith, and I applaud your effort, the reality is that you don't see this as clearly as ajn, Nandesuka, many others and I do, and your role right now is as Zeraeph's advocate and mentor. First, I believe strongly in guarding the privacy of e-mail, and wouldn't want the information in these e-mails to fall into Zeraeph's hands, even unwittingly. Second, your relationship with her as a mentor is likely to be compromised if she knows you have corresponded with me: she has expressed several times that she is convinced that I can manipulate admins. Third, if the person who sent me the e-mails holds me responsible for the information falling into Zeraeph's hands, I am likely to have not one online problem out of this mess, but multiple. In short, I am the one at risk here, having done nothing to warrant this, and I need for an admin who is not Zeraeph's advocate and mentor to look at the information. Again, Zeraeph's attacks on me began long before she had any reason to involve off-Wiki disputes or to believe that I was one of the people she has had those disputes with: I merely happened to cross paths with her because of a FARC. I concur with ajn and Nandesuka's analysis of the situation: unless there is a very fast cessation of these attacks and recognition that there is no reason to believe I am one of the people Zeraeph has had off-Wiki disputes with, as soon as I'm home, I will bring the ArbCom case myself. I am the one who best knows where to find all the pieces and the dates. Sandy 17:55, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Don't forward the emails at all--contact the sender and inform him/her of Deathphoenix's offer to mentor. Let the sender decide. Thatcher131 (talk) 18:17, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

My once daily checkin: Brilliant solution, thanks. (I have never responded to the sender's emails, as I don't want to be part of the whole drama: it appears that the sender read this and has already contacted ajn.) I feel strongly that the sender needs to be protected. I also failed to make another thing clear yesterday: If the sender is to be considered a "stalker", the sender has violated no Wiki policies, and only came (apparently) to Wiki after seeing Zeraeph do to me what she has done elsewhere to others. Once I asked that I no longer receive these e-mails, they stopped. The sender has turned out to be right about everything I was warned about, so I consider the sender credible, and to be protected. Sandy 15:40, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Ah. I thought these emails were the harassing emails, not information sent by other people. In that case, that's fine, I'd rather not know. FWIW, I have yet to correspond with Zeraeph today, so I'm not sure how she feels about the whole thing (or even if I could be considered a mentor). All that is moot if she doesn't accept me as a mentor/advocate anyway. --Deathphoenix ʕ 18:54, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

For whatever it might be worth at this point, I agree with ajn and others that this individual is not only very nasty but probably delusional, that everything reasonable that can be tried to get him or her to become a positive contributor to Misplaced Pages has been tried, failed and indeed has only made things worse, and that a community ban is both warranted and probably achievable. I attempted to be a voice of reason in the most recent mediation attempt, and the response was a) a repeat of precisely the same vague and barely coherent non-evidence that I was trying to get past and b) the most vicious and potentially libelous things Zeraeph had said on Misplaced Pages to date at the time. I seriously believe that he or she should, not only be off Misplaced Pages forever, but probably in jail or a mental institution as well for that response, and can't imagine how anyone could defend its author. I actually regret that my next response to Zeraeph was so mild - to be honest I skipped over most of the stalking accusations and so on the first time through. Not only were his comments about Sandy at that time completely outrageous toward her, they were rather a slap in the face to me as well. Ban with extreme prejudice. PurplePlatypus 02:11, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I've now had email from someone (not SG) offering to forward me the emails. This was my response:

I think the best thing would be for you to not forward the emails to anyone at this time - this is a Misplaced Pages problem and it's regrettable that off-Misplaced Pages problems have intruded. If anyone else feels it would be useful to know what was in them, I'll be happy to act as an intermediary and make sure that no personal information is divulged.

By "anyone else" I mean involved admins, of course. The person who emailed me stipulated that they were not to be passed directly to Deathphoenix. I think that's what was stipulated - re-reading the message, it could have meant "not to be passed to anyone who is trying to help Zeraeph". Either way, I've not seen them and I don't want to (unless it's necessary). --ajn (talk) 10:08, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

There's not much in the emails that anyone with eyes wide open can't figure out, or that will be news to you, ajn. The problem is, they do contain identifying information, and if I redacted that information, I couldn't forward the emails with headers. At any rate, I want this to end. It is taking as much of my time as bringing an ArbCom case would, and when I return from vacation, I will have lots of Wiki work to catch up on. I still agree with those who said an ArbCom case will not be good for Wiki or good for Zeraeph, but I have a feeling if I don't bring the case, I'll still be responding to this issue months from now. It is with some irony that I noted the comments above that Zeraeph was "frustrated". This is a situation wholly caused by her and brought upon herself by no one but her, with me as the target, so I'm not entirely sympathetic anymore to her frustration. The people who followed her to Wiki certainly complicated a situation which Wiki admins could have handled, but they followed her to Wiki because she apparently continued a pattern of abuse here she has engaged in elsewhere. I'll check in tomorrow. Sandy 15:40, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm fine with all of this, apart from this stigma that seems to be attached to my good faith attempts to help someone (I'd like to think that I'm mature and experienced enough not to let my attempts to help Zeraeph get in the way of doing what's best for Misplaced Pages and in not making unjustified attacks for someone). You guys are beginning to make me wish I hadn't replied to Zeraeph's request to the Unblock mailing list. --Deathphoenix ʕ 16:23, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think anyone doubts your good faith or integrity. What's worrying some of us is that any further attempts to give Zeraeph a chance to defend herself will be abused by her. See her recent post to wikien-l, for example. I firmly believe that the most helpful thing that could be done right now is a permanent block and no more discussion, here or offline. Engaging with someone in her state and trying to reason with her is very unlikely to help anyone. --ajn (talk) 17:14, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

As with ajn, I don't doubt your good faith or integrity. I doubt Zeraeph's good faith and integrity. It's very nice of you to offer to help this individual, but I believe it to be naïve; all you are likely to accomplish is to directly or indirectly give him or her a platform for further abusive actions (as happened with my own attempt to introduce some rationality into the debate), and that's not a desirable outcome no matter how good the intentions of the person doing it. Zeraeph is not above attempting the same kind of manipulation of which s/he is so quick to accuse others, and I believe that is likely what will prove to be happening here. PurplePlatypus 19:59, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm experienced enough to not let facetious or invalid information leak to Misplaced Pages via my own edits. What I hope to accomplish is to look at Zeraeph's information closely and either tell her that the information doesn't indicate too much or find some way of correcting the situation if it does. Since most of you believe that her information is invalid, you shouldn't be too worried, because while I genuinely want to help Zeraeph, I also want to make sure that she is either made aware that her accusations are unmerited or that, if they are, I can help her correct the situation. My dealing with her gives her a way of dealing with someone on Misplaced Pages. It does not mean that she has a meatpuppet who will blindly post anything that she writes. Currently, she is blocked from Misplaced Pages (a block that I'm not contesting), and her talk page is also protected (which, despite your offer to allow me to unprotect, remains protected). This pretty much means that the only ways she can communicate with someone on Misplaced Pages are through email, and that's where I come in. What she writes goes to me. Yes, I read her recent post to the mailing list and while it's a little troubling, the language isn't over-the-top. If it becomes as such, the listmods will likely ban her from the mailing list anyway. Which once again just leaves me to deal with her. What's the harm in that? I'm not a vexatious litigant, and I'm not ignorant either. Sometimes, just sweeping something under the rug and ignoring it isn't the answer. ajn, you must know that we don't hand out permanent blocks like candy. Community bans only become as much if someone permablocks the user and no other admin bothers to unblock. I am fine with this long block you've put her on while I try to deal with this user, but I won't stand idly by and see this user get permanently blocked while I've got some fruitful dialog with her. And this fruitful dialog is nothing that everyone else should be stressed out about either. I'm not an ignorant meatpuppet who allows any statements made by anyone cloud how he sees other users. If result of my discussions with her are that she should stop editing Misplaced Pages, then so be it. I actually suggested that plan of action in our discussions, and she may consider it if it seems she can't edit Misplaced Pages without resolving these issues, but I would like me and Zeraphael to make that determination for ourselves, not via a community ban forced upon her. --Deathphoenix ʕ 18:38, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

"you must know that we don't hand out permanent blocks like candy" - I'd hardly say this is candy, this user should have been blocked a while ago. Constant, unrepenting harrassment of other editors; and yes, I've had a bit of first-hand experience in the articles as well (although thankfully I was never the target but I tried to defend those who were). Please, let this one rest in peace so this user can solve his/her issues; Misplaced Pages is not a very good place to do that, in fact it usually just makes them worse; LOL!!! RN 19:42, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, the candy remark bugged me too. DP, you're making it sound like all he did was swear at someone or something like that. Frankly, trivializing Zeraeph's offenses, such as calling someone an "erotomanic stalker", is rather offensive. I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, but at best failing to consider how that might come across backs up my above charge of naïvety. PurplePlatypus 20:10, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I didn't mean it that way, and I resent the implication that I'm naive. You're entitled to your opinion, and I know you didn't mean it that way, but I find your remark at least as insulting as my inadvertent remark about candy. You'd be singing a different tune if you were to look at the nature of my discussions with Zeraeph. I am by no means trivialising what Zeraeph has done, and I am not saying that what she did was minor. What I am saying is that community banning Zeraeph will not solve these problems of which you speak. And no, I am not saying Misplaced Pages is therapy either. I am dealing with Zeraeph off-wiki. How many times do I have to say that? I am dealing with Zeraeph off-wiki. That and the fact that she is already being blocked for a month should be sufficient. I do not support a community ban. You guys are asking for a community ban, and I'm not supporting it. Simple as that. If you guys want to file an arbitration case to get her banned for a year, that's fine, go ahead and file, I have no problems with Misplaced Pages processes being followed. But if you think you can get her banned through a unanimous community ban, I'm afraid you are mistaken. --Deathphoenix ʕ 20:28, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, first of all, as I understand a community ban does not need to be unanimous. Leaving that aside, though, let me come at this from a slightly different angle. Could you please explain what positive result for Misplaced Pages you hope or expect to accomplish? Under what circumstances do you think Zeraeph should be permitted to edit again, and what benefits do you beleive will result when that happens? You can deal with Zeraeph off-wiki as much as you like, and as long as it stays off-wiki it's no real concern of mine (though I can see why Sandy might have a different view), it's the potential ON-wiki consequences that bother me. PurplePlatypus 20:47, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it does have to be unanimous. A community ban is simply an indefinite block that other admins can't be bothered to undo. If a single admin wants to undo an indefinite block as a result of a community ban, that community ban will not hold. To have an enforceable ban on a user requires the approval from ArbCom, Jimbo, or via an office action, and unless things have changed since I last paid attention to it, ArbCom can only hand out one-year blocks on main accounts (sockpuppet accounts are another matter). As to your next question, I was hoping to tiptoe around it before, but I'll be frank. I believe that if you simply hand out a blanket block, Zaphrael will continue to find a way to make life difficult for the said parties. While I understand how harrying it is for you people, I may have found another angle with Zaphrael and how to approach her. She's already been blocked for a month, and right now, she can't really do anything on Misplaced Pages, unless she chooses to get around the block by using sockpuppets or anon IPs, but from what I see in our emails, Zaphrael is fully aware that I will not help her at all if she breaks the block on her in this fashion. I'm reviewing her information in a neutral manner, and I can have feedback that I can give her. Whatever the result, I can act appropriately. --Deathphoenix ʕ 08:18, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

That's actually a reasonable answer that I am a lot more comfortable with. That being the case, good luck. PurplePlatypus 17:12, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. As I stated below, I hope Zeraeph and I can come to an agreement. --Deathphoenix ʕ 15:12, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

What's worrying some of us is that any further attempts to give Zeraeph a chance to defend herself will be abused by her. See her recent post to wikien-l, for example. ajn I do not have access to, nor have time while on vacation, to track down this post, but if she is continuing to smear my name, I hope someone has either saved that information or will forward it to me so that I will have a record of it for any potential ArbCom case. I am relieved to see that others have (finally) noted the severity of the statements Zeraeph has made against me, since I was surprised at the initial mild responses, considering how severely she has attacked me in so many places, with no foundation. Phoenix, I have no doubt at all of your good faith effort, but I do wonder if you've had experience with the particular issues and behaviors in evidence. I would also like to have an idea if there is a concensus here as to whether I should bring the Arbcom case. If some admins finally realize what I've been attempting to ignore, I will be glad to continue to ignore it if others think that is best for Wiki and she can be prevented from the continued attacks and smears, which are clearly beyond the pale of anything I've encountered on Wiki. On the other hand, if others feel I should bring the case, I'm willing. It's not fair, but it is what it is. Sandy 18:42, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Please see my response above. And yes, I have experience with these particular issues and behaviours (admittedly, not as a formally trained professional) and it is precisely because of this experience that I am approaching it this way. Think of it this way: she's already blocked for a month and her talk page is protected. If she decides to write any further emails to the mailing list that the listmods deem unacceptable, they will reject it. Any of her other activities beyond this will be outside of Misplaced Pages, and these actions may occur regardless of whether she is community banned from Misplaced Pages or not. Please, this time is mine to use (and in all of your opinions, to waste). While I understand how harrying this is for you, I believe this would be equally harrying whether I expend this effort or not. At least give me the chance to expend this effort, try to talk to Zaphrael, and have us (me and Zaphrael) both come to an agreement on something before we act on it. --Deathphoenix ʕ 08:18, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree that a community ban won't stop her from harassing me, and my concern is that she will use socks and proxies, and may impersonate me. I have no concerns about off-Wiki attempts or activities: I have never encountered her off-Wiki, and to put it plainly, Zeraeph thinks she knows who I am, but since she's wrong and I'm not who she thinks I am, there is no chance she can harm me in real life or off-Wiki. The only concern is on-Wiki, so I am in agreement with any approach that might work in the long-term. As I've said from the beginning, I'm willing to follow whatever approach is best for Wiki, and will hopefully keep me safe from longer-term attacks via socks, proxies, and impersonations. I just hope others will have my back, because the viciousness is alarming. Sandy 16:21, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Even while Zeraeph (I keep misspelling her name!) and I are engaging in useful dialog, I am aware of the possibility that she could be doing these things. If she is making any on-Wiki attacks via socks and open proxies, let me know and I will look into these cases myself or, if you are asking another admin to look into this, please let me know regardless. Misplaced Pages mentorship goes both ways: mentors are supposed to help and guide the people that they are mentoring, but they also issue warnings and blocks if the people they are mentoring continue with un-Wiki behaviour. However, sockpuppet and impersonator accounts can be blocked indefinitely, and this would not be contentious at all. If the account attacking you is a sockpuppet of Zeraeph, I would have no problem with an indef block because Zeraeph is getting around her block in an un-Wiki manner, and if the account attacking you is an impersonator of Zeraeph, she would happily have that account indef blocked because it's trying to get her punished even more. The simplest thing to do would simply be to indef block a sock or impersonator account (or temporarily block the IP) and revert any edits that those accounts make without further action. If, however, a CheckUser confirms the accounts as belonging to Zeraeph, further action would be relevant. I feel confortable saying this because I am certain that Zeraeph would not engage in sockpuppetry while we are in useful dialog, but have no problems with fixing anything that happens because of my misplaced trust. --Deathphoenix ʕ 17:03, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

OK, I'm comfortable that you should be allowed time to see if you can attain a more workable long-term solution, as my concern has always been how I could be safe in the long-term, knowing that short-term approaches and blocks might not help. I hope the admins who said they would bring the ArbCom case if I didn't will also give this some time. I am willing to wait. Sandy 17:27, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. Hopefully Zeraeph and I can come to an agreement. --Deathphoenix ʕ 12:22, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Torinir and ajn both mentioned they would be off-Wiki: I will leave a message on ajn's talk page. Sandy 23:47, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I've observed a little of the behaviour of Zeraeph, and would like to add that I feel great disquiet about the effect on what should be serious, professional work on WP. I'd be relieved if something could be done about it. (I should disclose that I'm a Wikifriend of Sandy's.) Tony 15:48, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I believe myself and Justdignity made some important contributions to the Bully and Workplace Bullying topics back around May 2006 but the text kept on being immediately deleted by Zeraeph on the basis of no citations. But very little else on those topics had citations either. Zeraeph said she would be happy to reinstate my text if it had citations. But that left me at her mercy as to whether in her view i had enough citations or in the right places. She should have left my text in place with citation markers in place and I would have gladly provided citations. On her basis i hardly felt motivated to bother doing any more work. I would love to contribute more to the Bully, Workplace Bullying and NPD topics but not with Zeraeph around. --Penbat 15:49, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Please also check the huge number of revealing comments made by Zeraeph on http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Bully I even created a subtopic called Zeraeph on that page back in May. The "Characteristic of Bullies subtopic" is also particularly revealing. User "Justdignity" makes the following revealing comment about Zeraeph: "I have read some of the feedback on your page and I realise Penbat and I are not the only ones to have fallen foul of your personal crusade to uphold what you think is WIki policy. While I accept Wiki policy applies to me, please will you accept that it applies to you too." --Penbat 19:45, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I am the aforementioned Justdignity and have to say that my introduction to Wiki editing was short and thoroughly disenchanting thanks Zeraeph's perceived need to control (i.e. delete) user input, justified by non-sequitur commentary (i.e. nonsense). I retreated from Wiki because I had (and have) better things to do with my life than to waste my time grovelling to Zeraeph. However, I would be happy to consider completing the work I started if I knew that Zeraeph had been permanently blocked. Justdignity 13:20, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Zeraeph had a large role in the banning of Sam Vaknin. In my view Zeraeph's contributions were poisonous. Sam Vaknin is a self proclaimed narcissist but not in my view a malicious narcissist like Zeraeph. Like him or loath him he is an important authority in the understanding of narcissism. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Sam_Vaknin and http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Sam_Vaknin If you strip away Zeraeph's comments you dont have too much left to damn Sam Vaknin and some of the other comments were because others were taken in by Zeraeph's poison. I hope that Sam Vaknin can be reinstated. --Penbat 18:00, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Just to add that I think that some of the others putting the knife into Sam Vaknin were Zeraeph sock puppets. Penbat 19:17, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

About the only person not in favour of an immediate ban on Zeraeph is DeathPhoenix. Zeraeph has got form. She has a highly manipulative personality. For her, acting this way is a compulsion. Any idea of negotiating with her to reach agreement is doomed to failure. It is very naive to even try. She may play mind games and pretend to agree to a compromise solution but she would just be bluffing. It is Misplaced Pages that is much more important than the welfare of one contributor - Zeraeph. Why should we have to endure any more of her poison ? --Penbat 21:24, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

THE SYNOPSIS for those who don't want to read all this * More Wiki situations found re/Zeraeph's problem behaviors * Zeraeph tells of 8 years grudge, showing she brought off-Wiki matters to Misplaced Pages. -I am Kiwi 23:33, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

My first involvement in the Z-affair was very tangential. I visited Keyne's Talk page to thank him for his plea for Z to halt her disruptive posting on the Asperger Syndrome talk page. The talk page had become emotionally stressful just to read and try to keep up with the others (a steadily dwindling number).

Then came the last of the attempted Mediations. I saw her refusal to cooperate and to divert attention from the issue. Then here, RN and others say they have had problems, too. I decided to check out her contributions history and so far I have, in this short time, found that she has gone after a PhD psychologist by impugning the quality of his education and, seemingly, his relationship with an online mental health site. She then implied that he wasn't at all qualified to write about the topic.

I found situations which indicates Z brought one, perhaps more, old grudges with people in the mental disorders topics. I recognized Penbat from years ago from a bullying forum where he is a moderator and where the two of them had conflict. Penbat was easy to spot as he uses his screen name everywhere.

Most disturbing of anything I saw was the long page of posts I found when I went looking for the man who wrote the rebuttal to the Vaknin opinion article. User_talk:Ta_bu_shi_da_yu/Global_Politician

This was the ending where she revealed that she has been personally upset with Sam for many years. On that page, many of her posts indicate her problems with him were of long duration before she came to Misplaced Pages. However, when I went hunting, her posts to Samvak started only in February of 2006, and she showed no sign of knowing him at all and he did not recognize her until later.

Under the SubTopic entitled TIMEOUT!!!! by Ta bu shi da yu

Folks, my article was never to whale on Sam! I responded to his points, and asked for his response and he only responded with an ad hominem attack. Please, we should not be doing the same in kind. I realise he's frustrating, but it gets us nowhere to have a go at him. Please, some kindness and patience for this critic of Misplaced Pages! He's absolutely no threat to us, and even if he was, we should not be too harsh on him anyway. - Ta bu shi da yu 15:48, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

You wouldn't say that if you knew him.

The guy has spent almost 8 years cold-bloodedly, deliberately playing cruel little games with the heads of as many extremelly vulnerable, damaged people as he can rope in, and determinedly crushing anyone he percieves as "getting in his way", including, but not limited to, the kind of tactics you have seen around "The Six Sins of the Misplaced Pages".

To Sam Vaknin "kindness" and "patience" are just contemptable weaknesses in others to be exploited. So don't waste them on him.

Truth and fairness are the best he deserves. --Zeraeph 16:03, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Maybe so, but this is not the forum for such matters. Blogs and places like Kuro5hin are best for such matters. - Ta bu shi da yu 16:22, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Maybe so, but I don't think this is the place to request "kindness and patience" for someone like that under circumstances where to extend either would be to leave oneself open to abuse.

Still it might be best if discussion of the man himself, as opposed to the specific article in question, were to move over to Talk:Sam Vaknin? --Zeraeph 16:28, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

-I am Kiwi 23:33, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

It looks to me like Sam Vaknin got badly wound up by Zeraeph, ref his "The Six Sins of the Misplaced Pages" for example. He presumably equated Misplaced Pages with Zeraeph as Misplaced Pages in general seemed to have sided with Zeraeph in preferance to himself. Far from being the monster that Zeraeph portrays him as, he still runs two popular support groups for victims of narcissists and commands the respect of many victims. --Penbat 14:02, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Research request

Please do not delete this post without discussion with James F..

Hello I'm a member of the research team at Palo Alto Research Center (formerly known as Xerox PARC) interested in understanding conflict in Misplaced Pages. A number of other admins and James Forrester (a member of the Wiki Research community) have supported our research, and we hope that you also will support our endeavor. We are currently running a survey to understand how administrators characterize conflict. If you would like to help in our research on Misplaced Pages please complete the survey at the link below:

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.asp?u=272072498578

Please note that we are committed to providing quality research to the Misplaced Pages community. The results of the survey will be incorporated into an academic paper that will be submitted to a peer-reviewed conference this fall (likely the CHI conference), and will be freely available to any interested parties. A link to this publication will be posted on my user page. You can look at the preliminary results of our first survey in which we targeted members of the Mediation Cabal to get an idea of the kinds of questions we are interested in.

We are not journalists or spammers but an established research institution with a strong track record of high-quality publications. Here are links to find out more about our team (the User Interface Research group) and our past research, including studies on characterizing the web. Thank you for your help! Parc wiki researcher 17:49, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Please do not remove this request. It is the third bloody time we've had to put it up, and I'm tired of people massively mis-interpreting Policy. Do not attempt become the third sysop to endure my wrath over this. ;-)

In as much as I have the authority so to do (which is not great), I welcome the research efforts from PARC. Please take this as sufficient to quell any doubts you might have about the authenticity of the request.

James F. (talk), Wikimedia CRO. 22:43, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Any chance that a bot can be created to automatically send a copy of the complteted research to our (interested users) talk pages? Just a thought. RVTA 22:47, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

if they have done this before why are they not hoasting on thier own servers and why are they not trying to contact people directly rather than useing theier current setup which gives them no control over who fills it in. It also asks about articles and then provides a list that includes a portal. Result obtained are likely to be largely useless.Geni 23:18, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

This is a valid point: How are the respondents being vetted? Is there a possiblity of creating a seperate page in userspace to ask these questions without clogging up the noticeboard? RVTA 00:32, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Just to respond to the above questions: Geni, we are using SurveyMonkey to host the survey, which is a common tool used in the research community. The articles/portals are selected using an algorithm which we will discuss more in the paper. RVTA, originally we targeted a randomly selected (by name) group of admins, but people told us to post here instead of to individual user pages. If the WP community has a better idea for a method for researchers to interact with the community, we'd definitely be interested in hearing it. Thanks! Parc wiki researcher 19:02, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

If you use your own domain to host serveys people are going to tend to be less paranoid.Geni 21:29, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

A problem I see is that there is no way to ensure you are getting answers from administrators and editors, or trolls and passers-by. Anyone can do the survey and anyone can fill in whatever username they wish to impersonate. A better way might be to send e-mail messages with unique passwords. —Centrx→talk • 21:42, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Don't encourage them to spam Misplaced Pages users. That will just get Misplaced Pages put on blocklists. --John Nagle 19:04, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I just took the survey and the research methodology seems to be at best lacking. The articles one was asked to look at are clearly not randomly selected but the procedure they were selected by doesn't seem at all clear either. There were other issues I had but I don't want to taint the study by going into them now. JoshuaZ 02:37, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Jason Fortuny and Craigslist Privacy incident

Jason Fortuny is the guy who posted a fake personal ad on Craigslist and then put the emails and photos he received in response on ED. I'm rather concerned about elements of the ED page - especially the victims' personal details and photos - making it into the article, considering the following this guy seems to have on ED and LJ. Personally, I'd love to go all rouge and just delete the thing as unencyclopedic, but I don't think it qualifies for a speedy. Anyone disagree, or barring that, anyone mind watchlisting? -- Vary | Talk 04:50, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I sent it to AFD. Dragons flight 05:32, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

You did right. I nuked it. The WP:BLP concerns are pretty much insurmountable - there is no appropriately neutral and reliable source for an article on this person, and several people on the AfD pointed this out. With several experienced editors in agreement that no copliant article can be compiled from the available sources, killing it before the puppet theatre starts seemed the smart move. Guy 09:53, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree for now although I think this got mentioned on slashdot. However a mention on slashdot hardly constitues enough reliable sources to write an article anyways and it is hard to see how an essentially internet based phenomenon can count as notable with only one such reference. Between these problems and the WP:BLP issues this was a correct decision. JoshuaZ 00:00, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't really agree with the protection of the page though. The story could still build you see, if say, someone visits Jason with a brick. I think salting the earth may be a bit premature, but it's suitable as a temporary measure until the "drama" dies down. This story has been picked up in Metro BBC, and in numerous blogs such as Wired and Waxy.org. - Hahnchen 15:51, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Salting is overused, though warranted here. I'm sure there's a de-salting procedure in the event something drastic were to change. Newyorkbrad 16:12, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

• What's ED? - Mgm| 21:06, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Encyclopedia Dramatica. Dragons flight 21:22, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Endorse the speedy deletion. This was a serious privacy issue for many non-prominent people. Newyorkbrad 00:03, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Log/2006 September 11#Jason_Fortuny - the ED crowd are kicking up the usual fuss. Guy 22:41, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

• I'm not connected to ED in any way, and I disagree with the above characterization of the debate on DRV. When I looked for news sources, I found several meeting WP:RS (including BBC News and the Associated Press), providing more than enough information to support a reasonable article about this person. Given that, I think it's entirely appropriate for people to "kick up a fuss" at DRV. If we're concerned about the privacy of the poor bastards who got caught in his sick little trap, then don't put any of their personal information in the article (and apply appropriate punishment to anyone who tries to add it). -Hit bull, win steak 02:56, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

• These are about a privacy incident not about a person. We can cover this with a paragraph in an article on online privacy, and that is no problem, but we have no sources about Jason Fortuny, only sources which mention Jason Fortuny in the context of a privacy issue. This is also a perfect example of the proiblems caused by indecent haste to document things on The Internets - the Google index had not even seen those news sources when I searched yesterday. There being no deadline, why not wait and see how it pans out? Guy 08:35, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

• A lack of verifiable info from reliable sources was the main issue raised at the AFD, and now that those sources are available, it seems reasonable to revisit the result of the discussion. If we need sources covering other aspects of Mr. Fortuny's life, there's no harm in adding what we have now and filling in the gaps later as the information becomes available. As for the Google news thing, Google is nice but it's not the be-all and end-all of info-tracking. If an article meets our policies and guidelines, Google's opinion shouldn't really factor into the decision. -Hit bull, win steak 15:15, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I've commented at the deletion discussion, to which I would draw attention, and won't repeat myself here -- except to note that if this article were to come back, which I hope it won't, it will have to be continually monitored for privacy and legal issues, possibly by WP:OFFICE. Incivility in some of the comments on the DRV may also warrant admin attention. Newyorkbrad 15:21, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

William Pietri, one of my favourite purveyors of neutrality and civility in heated situations, has written this up in Internet privacy#Noted_cases. I suggest a redirect and leave it at that for now. Guy 18:02, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

As noted, page will need to be monitored closely for privacy violations. Newyorkbrad 02:52, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

new topic: can we have a more informative rollback choice?

I assume most of us revert vandalism using the rollback choice but you notice it leaves no explanation of the reason. There are a few other categories of "rollback on sight", such as removing linkspam or removing personal info or removing personal attack or removing edit by banned person. I am sure a few others might occur to people. Is anyone else in favor of asking the developers for a choice of, say, 5 or 6 rollback buttons that function like the present one but put a brief explanatory phrase in the edit summary? alteripse 20:13, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

If it's anything other than vandalism, rollback isn't appropriate. I'm sure we've all broken that rule now and again, but to be honest, it's generally a good one. If you need to undo an edit for any other reason than vandalism, then you need to manually explain whay you're doing. Doing so will also help you think twice about reverting in the first place. ➨ ЯEDVERS 20:23, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

A related question, what can be done for admins who continuously use rollback for reverts during edit disputes, and other cases where no obvious vandalism/link spam etc has occurred? I have tried politely requesting them in such cases, but most of the time, the offending admin simply ignores and does it again and again. --Ragib 20:26, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I would suggest not doing anything, since there is nothing wrong with doing so. User:Zoe|(talk) 20:29, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

There is of course problems in abusing admin features in edit disputes. According to WP:ADMIN#Reverting, Do not use one-click rollback on edits that are not simple vandalism; please revert manually with an appropriate edit summary.. --Ragib 20:34, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

If an admin repeatedly uses the rollback feature to get the upper hand in an edit war they should first be reported for violating 3RR or the spirit of the rule if appropriate, then send to arbcom if they keep ignoring requests not to. - Mgm| 20:53, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I cannot see how using rollback is any different from leaving a blank or uninformative edit summary. 3RR is already taken care of. There is already guidance to not describe a good-faith edit as vandalism. Misusing one's position as an admin is understood to be wrong no matter what mechanism is used. How is using the rollback button worse than leaving as a summary "restored NPOV"? Tom Harrison 19:07, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure if the interface clutter is worth the trouble. Rollback is, in the vast majority of cases, used where the reason for its use is obvious. If an editor is confused or perplexed about why an admin used rollback in a particular circumstance, a polite talk page request usually clears matters right up. For admins (or other editors, for that matter) who would like more specific or more customizable rollback buttons, my understanding is that there are any number of homebrew scripts available for download these days. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 21:00, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

It shouldn't happen in the first place, and having to talk to the admin first is quite a waste of time. I had a minor fight on a WP:BJAODN page - I added something and the admin reverted. I think we both wasted more time arguing about it on his talk page than if he had just spent 20 seconds explaining why he didn't think it was funny. Hbdragon88 19:36, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I know, we don't do that with edit wars, etc. So where can I find a "homebrew script" that would let me make a small menu of edit summaries for rollback? alteripse 02:59, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Admin rollback has always been for vandalism only. If admins are making an edit decision, they should do it manually like everyone else, and leave an edit summary to explain the edit (which rollback can't do). This is for good communication with other editors. Past discussions about this feature have been unambiguous. Tyrenius 07:38, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

All points agreed as above. This is about how, not when and whether. I am suggesting/requesting a measure to increase ease and detail of communication for those rollbacks that do not warrant a talk page discussion but might not look like obvious vandalism. I am one of those editors who feel a much stronger conversation obligation to named users with accounts than to anon IPs but would like to leave a more informative message than the automatic "reverted". Please don't repeat the points already stipulated, thanks. alteripse 12:10, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

On usernames... again

Ok, fine, I'll work for getting Reformed Vandal when I'm a more established editor... to get started on this I've been doing some useful work on random articles tonight, and am going to patrol rc for a bit after posting this message. Anyway, users Dave and David both exist, but neither have done anything. May I please have one of these usernames? I really want to have a proper username so that everything I do can be associated with me, but at the same time am pretty picky about the username itself. 84.9.83.105 22:17, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Maybe David and an initial? JoshuaZ 22:20, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

If the accounts haven't made an edit, maybe a 'crat could clear the way for you. Yanksox 22:22, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Would be handy - do I just wait here for a bureaucrat to read it, or do I do something else? 84.9.83.105 22:33, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not too sure about the exact details, I'm copying and pasting this to WP:BN. Yanksox 22:37, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I suggest you go to Misplaced Pages:Changing username and ask if it's possible to do such a thing. I wish I knew more/could be a better help. Yanksox 22:39, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your help - I've put a request up 84.9.83.105 22:47, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I've had a request pending since 2004. :( Luigi30 (Taλk) 13:24, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Harrassment by User:Scribner

Can some admin please review the harrassment by User:Scribner on my talk page and his repeated allegations that I am a sock of another user. I've kind of been on a hiatus here editing so I don't know why I'm even involved in this. I'd block myself, but I'm sort of involved (though I don't know how). Pepsidrinka 00:46, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I can confirm that this guy is a problem. He is in mediation with User:Publicola over something or other; Publicola is an admitted second account created to push a particular editing style as an "experiment." Scribner is convinced Pepsidrinka is the master account, and that User:Starcare is another sock. A checkuser request was declined; in my opinion based on the request and on a discussion with Scribner on my talk page it was misleadingly filed as well. I tried to explain that even if Pepsidrinka was Publicola's master account, they haven't edited the same things so there is no violation. I would suggest a final warning to desist with a civility block the next step, but as a !admin, I'd rather not warn him without the muscle to back it up. Thatcher131 (talk) 17:36, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

heh, i'll warn him about it. He needs one. Sasquatch t|c 18:22, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Speedy deletion backlog

There is currently quite a backlog of several hundered categories, articles, and images for speedy deletion (including a couple of attack pages). Admin attention would be appreciated. Thanks! Deli nk 15:02, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Request for block of self

Would an administrator do me the favor of blocking my account for a period of one year? Seriously. It would be much appreciated, as I do not need the distraction right now, and I am sorely lacking in moderation. Rohirok 19:51, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

That used to be done with regularity (and some admins used to do it to themselves), but with the increased number of users and the problems with the autoblock, this is rarely done anymore. While other admins may disagree with me, I strongly suggest that you apply self-discipline instead of resorting to a block that may result in collateral damage on other users. --Deathphoenix ʕ 20:01, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I have successfully achieved the desired result by entering a local IP as an entry in the hosts file for en.wikipedia.org. Agathoclea 21:01, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

There is also a Javascript Wikibreak Enforcer that would do the trick. EWS23 (Leave me a message!) 21:12, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

User Categories

I just found out about this... apparently our bots are choking on the sheer amount of "user" or "Wikipedian" categories to be renamed or deleted. We presently have categories for users who like every known piece of software, every conceivable sports team, and any type of food you can name. A quick scan of Special:Prefixindex shows about 5600 of them. I can pretty much bear their existence by ignoring them, but the fact that they are clogging up our CFD process is definitely a Bad Thing. My first thought would be to ask a dev to DELETE * FROM wi_categories WHERE name LIKE "user*"; but perhaps somebody here has a better solution? >Radiant< 21:38, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

User pages are of such negligible utility, and are a never-ending source of diversionary problems unrelated to the encyclopedia (and frequently related to trivial, selfish, and malicious uses that mostly arise from people willfully mistaking Misplaced Pages for Angelfire or MySpace) that you should change your proposed SQL query to zap not the user page categories, but the user pages themselves. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 21:52, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I think we're here to build an encyclopedia, not share hobbies, interests and personal preferences through the category system. But then we're still having this fight over userboxes. I'd gladly delete the lot, userpages should be the only space for personal expression but it would take a Jimbo edict to ram that through, the community is so fractured now. Talk to that dev quick. Steve block Talk 21:54, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

There might be a whole lot more queued up for deletion if this nomination - Misplaced Pages:Categories for deletion/Log/2006_September_10#Wikipedians_by_diet - is successful. --kingboyk 22:25, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Its not like deleting / renaming user categories is actually important. I'd still go with mostly ignoring the problem. Just shove the user categories aside and deal with them when people get around to it, which is mostly what happens now, as I understand it. Or one could recruit more people to run cat bots. Dragons flight 23:34, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I like Radiant's first thought, except that the language ones are actually useful, as are some of the knowledge specialities. If we could keep those, and delete the rest... pizza eating is not relevant, nor is liking a certain type of music. One puppy's opinion. KillerChihuahua 01:12, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Agree with KillerChihauhua. On a related note someone a while ago brought up the notion of having another space for user:categories. That might make the more trivial user categories more tolerable and even if we only keep a few of them would still be good since these cats blur the line between article space and user space. JoshuaZ 01:23, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

As someone who does a LOT of discussion closing at CFD, I'd be perfectly happy with jettisoning the whole mess. It just takes up too much time and resources to deal with, even with all of them lumped on one page. If people want to have their userboxes, I really don't care, but I don't think a category is needed for every single one of them (save maybe the language ones). --Kbdank71 02:11, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

• Radiant!, for your information, I believe you were on your 7+ month long wikibreak when these type of categories were first created. They were originally started to keep track of which users were using what userbox (e.g. Category:Wikipedians who eat apples lists every Wikipedian who has {{User Apples}} on his or her user page. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 04:50, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

• Why did we need to keep track? Wouldn't a what links here work? I'm still not clear why we need to know that some wikipedians eat apples. I have no objection to being told that on a user's page, but I'm unsure how the grouping of such users through the category system helps the Misplaced Pages. Would we eventually have to kill all users who eat apples, and this is the hit list? Steve block Talk 10:23, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I believe that the idea is so that apple-eaters can find other apple eating editors on wikipedia, which will result in lots of wiki-love through people's shared love of apples. Dave 14:41, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Lol. Is that so? I'd better withdraw the nomination then... On second thoughts... no! ;) --kingboyk 14:43, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

On reflection, I think it's so that we can check their bias when editing articles about apples. Any chance someone could quickly run a comparison and see if any of them have actually edited articles regarding apples before they catch wind of it and game the system? :) Steve block Talk 16:05, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

• Well, at least we can't compare those to the Wikipedians who like oranges... >Radiant< 19:49, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

• OK, since I'm the person who's been doing most of the nominating of these things, let me speak up in defense of the approach of just getting it out of the way. When I got there, there were hundreds of user categories that were named like mainspace categories (category:Capuchin alumni, for example). There was a clear consensus to put "Wikipedians" in the title of all of them, so there wouldn't be any confusion. But this led to other questions: If Wikipedian was needed for several hundred categories, wouldn't it be better if there was no confusion whatsoever about how categories should be named? And thus the long nominations, which some have welcomed and others have despised. My thought is this: Let's get it all out of the way now, then (as I've proposed elsewhere) move it to its own renaming process so that those who do care can take care of it. I think it's worth it to run through the last sets of categories and then deal with wiping out entire sections if that's the consensus. Hope that helps.--Mike Selinker 12:49, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

In my view, the problem is simply that the Category: namespace has to cover too many bases. The Category: namespace should be purely for encyclopedic categorisation of articles. A User category: namespace would be helpful with the immediate problem being discussed here. While we're at it, we could have a Misplaced Pages category: namespace for admin categories, such as Category:Misplaced Pages categorization and its sub categories. By extension, I think I'm suggesting a category scheme for each namespace (Image: categorisation, Template: categorisation, MediaWiki: categorisation and Help: categorisation all seem to me to be non-encyclopedic, but potentially useful). I just float this as it occurs to me: does anyone think this is a good idea, one that could be suggested tentatively to developers? --RobertG ♬ talk 16:53, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

• Okay. For the time being, I have moved all User categories into Misplaced Pages:User categories for discussion. I hope that will help. >Radiant< 17:02, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
  • I'm not sure how it helps - isn't it just hiding them away in a cesspool of a Misplaced Pages page so we can pretend they don't exist? --kingboyk 19:59, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
    • That's the approach that worked for userboxes, right...? ;) -GTBacchus 20:27, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
      • Precisely so, it's a rather British way of doing things I suppose. Anyway, I'm just getting started with creating my user page, and userboxes are terribly good at allowing me to expand it with very little effort. I've yet to be contacted by someone that shares the esoteric hobby of eating at burger king occassionally, but there's hope yet and the only way they're going to find me is by retaining the categories. Dave 22:12, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
        • Isn't that a bit wimpy? At the risk of coming across as a goody goody or a little Caesar, the whole point of this discussion is that your contacting fellow burger afficionados is not Misplaced Pages's purpose:-) --RobertG ♬ talk 09:25, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
        • Yes I suppose it is a bit British, and I'm all for hiding my head in the sand when things go wrong :), so - Support! :) --kingboyk 09:28, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Time to just start deleting useless user categories. There's way too many of them to try running through CFD, and it really is distracting CFD from its encyclopedic purpose. --Cyde Weys 23:42, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

• Agreed. --RobertG ♬ talk 09:25, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Spamming/botting?

I noticed the following on the alerts board and think it's meritorious. Cutting and pasting:

• LordByronKing (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been systematically making changes that lead me to believe he has an agenda, and may also be using a bot due to the manner and duration of his contributions. By manner, I specifically am referring to the fact that he makes about ten small changes to an article within approx. 1 min. of eachother, then moves on to a related topic and does the same thing. On Sept. 11, LordByronKing made changes almost every minute (a few times there were lapses between 3-5 min long) for the period of about five hours. -21:57, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Many of these seem like attempts to raise the name presence of a single author and to capitalize phrases used in articles into correspondence with the title of that author's book. Smells like a form of spam? Durova 03:10, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I have removed a lot of his spam, and have warned him, expect to see me get attacked. User:Zoe|(talk) 02:15, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

User:LordByronKing is now back as Onedayoneday (talk · contribs). He's re-added himself to one article already. I've given him a final warning. User:Zoe|(talk) 22:59, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

And I have now blocked Onedayoneday for this threat. The LordByronKing account is still unblocked. User:Zoe|(talk) 23:03, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Is this a copyvio?

Constitutional Court of Thailand contains a huge (>250k) pile of information, all in comments, and presumably a copyvio. Any action need taking? Dave 23:16, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Not any more it doesn't. Nevertheless, what is policy? (See history of that article to see what I mean) Dave 00:08, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

See WP:CP#Instructions. Conscious 11:21, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

A few Usernames that should be Blocked

• User:Analfuckbaggage articles
• User:Misplaced Pages articles for analfuckbaggage

Vandalism only accounts, and from the usernames. -Royalguard11(Talk)(Desk) 00:59, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Done. —Mets501 (talk) 01:08, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Use WP:AIV next time, this is obvious stuff. Yanksox 02:24, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Major Backlog at WP:RM

FYI, there is a huge backlog at Misplaced Pages:Requested moves. I've taken care of quite a few move requests over the past half hour, but my current semi-wikibreak, as well as my inability to take care of many of the moves, prevents from doing more. Perhaps several admins with time on their hands could tackle the situation. Thanks in advance. -- tariqabjotu 01:24, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Workin' on it. But if others want to help, dive right in folks :)--Woohookitty 07:56, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I'll do a few, as I just haven't been yelled at enough lately for administrative decisions. Also, I have yet to be called a Nazi or fascist. -- Kjkolb 02:03, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

LOL! I love admin humor. :) From what I see though, it's relatively uncontroversial stuff. It's a little like closing AfD votes. --Woohookitty 04:06, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Vandalized image revisions

File:P11 kasparov breakout.jpg (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) contains a number of revisions which have been vandalized. The small U.S. flag has been replaced with a Nazi flag. The revisions in question are those which are sized 498×304. The current revision is fine, but the others should probably be removed, as this is a fair-use promotional image from IBM. —ptk✰fgs 20:07, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

They're gone now. Thanks for the heads-up. -GTBacchus 20:23, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Fake User Assistance

User:Templar34 created a fake user: User:David_Duchovny. It has been there since March 10th. Unless I'm missing something, this should be deleted. Thank you. --Ouzo 22:53, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for spotting that. It's zapped. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 22:57, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh, BTW, that was't a fake username. Templar34 had just changed his name and the original was never removed. My mistake. --Ouzo 00:53, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

But using the names of celebrities is a no-no. User:Zoe|(talk) 02:15, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah. Even if he changed his name from it, leaving the (defunct) celebrity-named user page around is undesirable. It's all still good. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 02:50, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Karwynn

• Karwynn (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

Karwynn showed up a few months back, and was involved in trying to push material attacking MONGO onto Misplaced Pages, for which I blocked him. More recently he's resumed trollish behavior, including this edit. Enough's enough. Time to invite Karwynn to go and troll elsewhere. --Tony Sidaway 23:31, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

This is long overdue. Now there's only one ED troll left who hasn't been blocked yet ... Cyde Weys 23:34, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm leaning towards endorsing this block but I'm not completely convinced. Karwynn has been disruptive but has also tried to contribute. Possibly unblock the user with the promise to only edit in article space for some set amount of time? JoshuaZ 23:44, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Who's the only "ED troll" left? —Nate Scheffey 23:45, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

None other than Badlydrawnjeff, I suppose... Scobell302 23:54, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Probably. --badlydrawnjeff talk 00:36, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Feel free to adjust duration or lift this block. My usual block principles apply. Fully reviewable and I've no objection to alteration. --Tony Sidaway 23:49, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think this block makes sense as a preventative measure. This user "showed up" 6 months ago and has 2000+ edits. The edit cited was not a good idea on Karwaynn's part, but after Nandesuka changed it, Karwynn agreed to a compromise which they apparently both were happy with. I think an indef block with no warning is a bit much. —Nate Scheffey 23:57, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't actually "happy" with it, but I was busy and figured someone else would block him for being disruptive and incivil. I thought that my little performance art on his page should have been enough to get the message across, but he insisted on replacing the insults, which told me that this was going nowhere fast. So I let it drop. While one can agree or disagree with Tony's block, claiming that Karwynn wasn't warned is pretty disingenuous, given that his edit summaries indicate that he full well knew just how rude and disruptive he was being.

I'm not inclined to second guess Tony in this particular matter. Nandesuka 00:08, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't know what you mean that "his edit summaries indicate that he full well knew just how rude and disruptive he was being." Could you cite one? And, I think it should be noted that Tony was involved in a heated discussion with Karwynn yesterday.—Nate Scheffey 00:13, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not aware of having responded to Karwynn's trolling lately. Apologies if it should turn out that I have. --Tony Sidaway 00:42, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

You're not aware of a conversation you had less than 24 hours ago, and most recently commented in one minute ago? And, for the record, disagreement is not "trolling". —Nate Scheffey 00:50, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

My apologies. When you said I had been "involved in a heated discussion" with Karwynn, I thought you meant that I had engaged in discussion with him. I see now that you merely mean that he and I both contributed to the same discussion thread. --Tony Sidaway

I'm fuzzy on the distintion between engaging in discussion with someone and both contributing to the same discussion thread. Are you saying it wasn't a discussion because you never replied directly to him? —Nate Scheffey 01:28, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm saying it wasn't a discussion because I didn't give his trolling the time of day. --Tony Sidaway 01:31, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Possibly this: Mackensen (talk) 00:17, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Per Tony's above permission I have reduced the block to 1 week. I think we should strongly encourage Karwynn to only edit in article space for an extended amount of time. JoshuaZ 00:21, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I think this shows a fairly complete awareness of the inappropriateness of his message. Don't you? Nandesuka 00:51, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I think it's more along the lines of "I'll probably be indef-blocked for commenting on the state of Misplaced Pages on my own talk page." —Nate Scheffey 01:28, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

There's a huge difference between constructive criticism (which a lot of people manage to do just fine with) and trolling. --Cyde Weys 06:29, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I should think it an incontrovertible principle that editors are expected to swing by the article space now again. For an active editor Karwynn has sworn off the article space to an astonishing degree (). Mackensen (talk) 01:09, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

There is no reason to keep around an otherwise disruptive user who doesn't contribute to the encyclopedia. —Centrx→talk • 01:22, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I would say pragmatic unblock, as otherwise he'll just go off somewhere winging about the conspiracy and within a week or two there'll be a new user with suspiciously similar editing patterns. Dave 01:53, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Lol at all of you who think I edit at ED. Blocks for good reasons sound great, but when those reasons are false, it restricts the value of the block. Karwynn (talk) 05:37, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Reblocked :-/ This guy just keeps on doing more of the same. --Cyde Weys 06:22, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

• Sad but true. Endorsing a palpable sockpuppet does not exactly endear Karwynn to me either. From the negligible participation in mainspace I would say this is not going to impact the project at all - I should probably have done this yesterday, actually, instead of just asking Karwynn to stop. So: endorse block. Guy 11:57, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I have had to restrain myself from taking care of this situation for some time. If anyone wants further evidence why this editor needs to find a new playground, just ask me. Cyde and Tony Sidaway deserve medals.--MONGO 06:24, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Website using wikipedia material without compliance to the GFDL

I'm not sure where to report this, but this site is using wikipedia material without following licencing requirments.--Peta 01:50, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

<meta name="description" content="WELCOME TO ONE OF THE BEST LINKS SITE ON THE NET..."> hmm, {{db-nocontext}} perhaps? Dave 01:55, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

You seem to have missed the issue.--Peta 02:41, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

What you're looking for is WP:FORKS. —ptk✰fgs 02:51, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Patterns merely perceived?: User name plus behavior = small freak-out

Is this at all normal? A series of user names, most of the form "name <space> name", all editing a single article, with very small edits quite quickly, over a short period of time but not overlapping. Is this someone trying to 'establish' a set of users for ... 'later'?

• 05:09, 14 September 2006 User:Stanley Goodwin (Talk | contribs) (New user account)
• 05:05, 14 September 2006 User:Kevin Ronchzkowski (Talk | contribs) (New user account)
• 05:02, 14 September 2006 User:David Sam (Talk | contribs) (New user account)
• 04:59, 14 September 2006 User:Carl Edwards (Talk | contribs) (New user account)
• 04:53, 14 September 2006 User:Mark Stanley (Talk | contribs) (New user account)
• 04:31, 14 September 2006 User:Jonathanchristman (Talk | contribs) (New user account)

Check out the edit history of Reformed_Baptist. (I'm tempted to revert the whole lot of changes, as several are just bad, but I'm spooked.)

I scanned down the list of new accounts for about 1.5 hours' worth, and except for

• 04:25, 14 September 2006 User:Bruce Graham (Talk | contribs) (New user account)

none else fit the (perceived?) pattern.

I know that people will often perceive a pattern in "white noise", but this is too strange for me. Shenme 05:57, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd say there's something up. That history page is scary! Looking at this dif (there are over 50 edits in between) there seem to be no substantial changes (and a few copyediting errors, which I am going to go fix). It seems like someone trying to build up an edit count on a few socks. I'm no expert or admin though, but that's what I think. Ungovernable Force 06:37, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

• Yeah, that looks like a pattern all right. - Mgm| 08:26, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Bruce seems to be unconnected to the others, and is presumably blisfully ignorant that his name is being dragged through the mud. I've dropped a handrolled "please don't" message on each of the others. Probably just someone experimenting. We will see. Regards, Ben Aveling 09:12, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I hope I didn't give that impression, sorry if I did. User:Bruce Graham was not in the first list, and I was _trying_ to say he wasn't a possible problem, but apparently failed. No, I was not including User:Bruce Graham in my concerns. Shenme 16:36, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I apologise. I didn't think that you meant that Bruce was a problem, only that you were just raising a perfectly valid concern that there might be a connection. But I'm discomforted that Bruce was included in a check user request . That's not because it wasn't done in good faith - it was. Just that it's rough on him to show up and accidentally be caught in a dragnet. I'm uncomfortable that we're discussing him and he doesn't (presumably) know it. But I don't what to do about it - leave a message on his page saying "By the way Bruce, just to let you know, we're watching you and we're know you're innocent?" That's wierd too. Regards, Ben Aveling 22:59, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

• I only included him, because he appears (or appeared) to be connected by naming and edit habits. If he's innocent I'm sorry he got dragged in here, but I don't see anything implicitly wrong with innocents being included in RFCU when there's reason to believe there's a connection. The persons performing such checks will not reveal any confidential information, so information he is not related can only be good for him. - Mgm| 08:07, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Request for unblock

Got a dilemma. I've heard from a blocked user, Wiki brah who created a benign sockpuppet account under Le Wiki Brah in order to contact me. This fellow was a problem user, but I don't believe the problems were intentional. Rather, I believe it's because he's slightly autistic and has admitted as such. He wishes to reestablish an account under the original user name but I don't want to override another admin, in this case, Tony Sidaway. I know how I felt when I was overturned a few months ago by another admin. I've left word with Tony but I haven't heard back. So...what to do? Thanks, guys and gals. - Lucky 6.9 07:20, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Tony did, in fact, respond, you must have missed it (I've moved this from ANI as per his request):

Please raise this on WP:AN. He was subject to a community ban and I'd like to see how people feel about him coming back. See here. As a matter of personal opinion, I would strenuously oppose his return under any restrictions. I just don't know that he ever helped the encyclopedia. --Tony Sidaway 04:13, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

El_C 07:57, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, sorry for not checking this myself. --Tony Sidaway 08:21, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

• So far he's used his alternate account only to contact an admin and revert a case of silly vandalism. I'd be happy to give him a second chance. We can always community ban him again if even the beginning of a problem arises. Vandals and troublemakers can change and as Lucky said, the ban may have been due to other reasons. - Mgm| 08:24, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
• Concur. I see no immediate harm in giving the user a 2nd chance. El_C 08:43, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Have you seen the block log? In particular:

02:08, 16 August 2005 Lucky 6.9 (Talk | contribs) unblocked Wiki brah (contribs) (Autistic user who is asking for another chance)

Regards, Ben Aveling 08:49, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

• I fail to see the relevence of a year-old unblock. - Mgm| 11:16, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

• I believe the point he's making is that we've been down this road before. Mackensen (talk) 11:17, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

• Yes, that's all. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." And people do change, though if the behaviour problems arise from the fact that he's autistic, that's maybe unlikely. Does this suggest we need a parole board? Category:Users on parole? Regards, Ben Aveling 23:07, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

• I'm not comfortable with unblocking someone who has a history of poor behaviour, followed by contrition, followed by poor behaviour. That's not autism, it's trolling. Add to this a general lack of edits to the encyclopedia itself (out of the user's final 100 edits, just 5 were to the mainspace) and I think we're inviting trouble by letting this user back. ➨ ЯEDVERS 08:55, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

  I am somewhat weary of autism being used to disguise trolling. El_C 09:08, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

• Autistic people can be good encyclopedic contributors; I think we could overturn the community ban on him if he's willing to work with us... I would help him if he wants it. --LiverpoolCommander 10:18, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

• I think that as long as he is prepared to exercise self-restraint and accept a zero tolerance approach to incivility on his part then a second chance is not so much to ask. I suspect he will be closely watched. I view it as a good sign that he asked rather than simply create a new account. The worst that can happen is that we have to block him again, which is not so very terrible. Guy 12:43, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

  The worst thing that can happen? We spend another six months nursemaiding an editor who shows little or no inclination to improve the encyclopedia, and shows every sign of wanting to flaunt his anti-social habits in the hope of gaining attention. --Tony Sidaway 16:23, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

• You may be right, Tony. Let's let it ride. Thanks. - Lucky 6.9 22:44, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

• Maybe raise it to the ArbCom, see if they want to reconsider, either now or at some point in the future. In the meantime, if he wants to make any suggestions for changes/report vandalism etc he can always do it on his talk page. I'll watch list it and follow up on anything he raises, and I'm sure others will too. That allows him to make a contribution and show good faith, or otherwise. Regards, Ben Aveling 23:07, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Who is the vandal?

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User:MutterErde&diff=75673503&oldid=75673413

curiuos 195.93.60.102 09:46, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Randomvandal40000000000000000

This person has an inappropriate username and I can't click on "Edit this page". So much red text... O.O User_talk:Randomvandal40000000000000000 is his talk page. --WikiSlasher 11:15, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Reported to WP:AIV, you are more likely to get admin attention over there. MER-C 11:15, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

myg0t

Myg0t (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) has been deleted, reviewed, deletion endorsed, earth salted, reviewed again, reviewed again. It's pretty unliekly that we'll see an article at that location in the near future. The talk page is, of course, the usual trollfest. I suggest we delete it, as a talk page of a deleted article which is unlikely to play any productive part in a deletion review in the foreseeable future. What say? Guy 12:11, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Deleted. JoshuaZ 12:52, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

And earth salted. Technically talk pages aren't speediable if they "contain deletion discussion that isn't logged elsewhere", but I don't even see the use of that generally, and certainly none of the trolling on Talk:Myg0t is any use to anyone. --Sam Blanning 16:39, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Do you think the same approach could be applied to Talk:Wii60? -- ReyBrujo 21:26, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Talk:Luelinks is also flaring up again after another admin deleted the talk page a few months ago. Hbdragon88 19:40, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Prolific spammer - Keenstar

User:Keenstar (Talk | Cont) Appears to have been set up solely to promote his/her site contactmusic. User has been warned twice (diffs ) but has not responded or changed behavior. Sample of edits being made: . All edits so far (except uploading company logo) have been of similar type. --SiobhanHansa 15:50, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I have given the user a 24 hour block. If it continues after the block has expired I will move it up to indefinite. JoshuaZ 21:55, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

This site appears to be across a lot of articles.--Andeh 22:04, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Some of these at first glance look like they were put there by legitimate editors. Anyone want to help me go through and make determinations? There are about 400 or so to deal with. JoshuaZ 23:24, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

400 what? -- Drini 23:34, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I hadn't realized you could search on a URL like that. It's always good to learn something new. I'll start looking through (if there's an easier way to find out who added the link and when, other than wading through the history, please someone let me know :-) --SiobhanHansa 23:51, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Of the remainder, most use the website as a reference. I'm not convinced that it meets WP:RS but there isn't any WP:SPAM/WP:EL issue for most of the remaining links. JoshuaZ 23:53, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

That's great! Thanks --SiobhanHansa 00:02, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Eternal Equinox limited to one account

Eternal Equinox continues to edit anonymously, both disrupting articles and continuing to violate bans received under probation for the disruption. Eternal Equinox is hereby limited to one publicly known account, preferably Eternal Equinox. All edits by Eternal Equinox under another account or an IP address shall be treated as edits by a banned user.

Passed by 6-0. 17:11, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

For the arbitration committee. --Tony Sidaway 17:13, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

However, Eternal Equinox has still continued to edit anonymously after this ruling took effect as might have been expected from her history (this is User:Hollow Wilerding, for those who remember) and the imperious tone she took at the request to use an account. She edits from the 64.231.0.0/16 range, principally pop music articles. Please roll back IP edits from this range per the ruling above. The range can be blocked for a couple of hours at a time, anonymous users only and account creation enabled, to encourage the user to create an account as requested. (She claims to have munged the password for the preferred User:Eternal Equinox account.) Bishonen | talk 22:16, 14 September 2006 (UTC).

That's not violating the new ruling. Who do you think you are? I have a life and incase you didn't notice (which you didn't) I made those edits after the new ruling without any acknowledge that it had taken place. I don't always check on WP:RFAR and there was no message posted on any of my talk pages. All those edits have been restored anonymously and this new account has been created for the sole purpose of posting this message. Actually, I'm not fond of this account's name and will abandon it for one with a preferable name. Identifycommunication 23:48, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

And yes, I'm going to munge this password too. Identifycommunication 23:49, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Blocked, etc. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 23:54, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Eternal Equinox has been told to choose a new account name and stick to it. --Tony Sidaway 23:51, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Sticking with this account. Will access on occasion. Veltron 01:05, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Dear smart people,

Please read User:David Gerard/Process essay and hack it into teeny little bits with your cluesticks. It needs Bastard Peer-Reviewing From Hell - David Gerard 17:29, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

You didn't use the proper process to write your essay!! you are not following the policy on essay drafts to be created in userspace nor you submited by triplicate your annoucement to the appropiate forums. It's an Out Of Process Essay!! thus it should be deleted. -- Drini 20:19, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Giano

• Giano (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

Giano has taken his concerns about the recent Carnildo affair beyond the level of reasonable discussion and has begun to make quite hysterical and false accusations . I've given him three hours to reconsider his words and cool down a bit. --Tony Sidaway 21:14, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that a block was necessary here... I don't read anything that makes it look like there's any danger to the project, and it isn't obvious to me that the comments are designed to upset any contributors. Jkelly 21:23, 14 September 2006 (UTC)-

I agre with Jkelly. I'm going to unblock, and leave him a message on his talk page asking him to be a bit cooler. Raul654 21:24, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Hrm, Flonight beat me to it. Raul654 21:24, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't agree with the block, but Giano definitely needs to cool it. There's room for civil discussion, and then there's accusations of conspiracy, corruption, and cabalism. True or not, the latter doesn't help a damn thing. Mackensen (talk) 21:26, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

No problem. I think it had gotten far beyond the stage where asking him to cool it would have worked, though. We'll see how it goes. --Tony Sidaway 21:29, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, for the delay in posting. Keep getting edit conflicts. Giano will not respond positively to a block so I unblocked. --FloNight 21:31, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I support getting Giano to return to the excellent work he has done in FA's and to try and let the situations outside of that become the past, as they should be. I also hope folks aren't going around undoing Tony Sidaway's admin actions, knowing that he cannot revert them since he is under an administrative 1RR ruling. Let's not undo others admin actions as this is the second time in less than 24 hours an admin has changed Tony's blocks.--MONGO 21:34, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

"his is the second time in less than 24 hours an admin has changed Tony's blocks." Seems to me there are two ways to interpret that statistic.... —Nate Scheffey 21:45, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Here's here all week folks! Mackensen (talk) 21:48, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Tony, the block was uncalled for, especially of an editor you hadn't even warned, that I can see. The block summary was even more so. "Hysterical" is untrue and a personal attack, and now it's there in the log for evermore. Please consider the formulation of block summaries with particular care, as they are extremely difficult to remove or change, and it's in practice never done. This was discussed extensively, recently, in relation to Carnildo's "hate speech" summaries, which still remain in several block logs—Giano's, as luck would have it, being one of them. Bishonen | talk 21:35, 14 September 2006 (UTC).

Yes, the block was uncalled for (and particularly bad form). Better to risk a bruised ego by undoing an improper block than to let it stand out of some misguided notion of politeness. Friday (talk) 21:36, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid we'll have to differ on this,Bishonen. Giano's accusations of skulduggery and malice are beyond anything that is ever acceptable on Misplaced Pages. --Tony Sidaway 21:38, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, well, you don't usually mince words yourself, Tony. A month ago you were accusing a fellow admin of "Pure, unadulterated malice. Disgusting." Haukur 21:55, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Tony weren't you also just fighting with Giano on the crat board? I notice you've also started doing more refactoring of those discussions after I asked you to stop. JoshuaZ 21:43, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

And where is this "skulduggery and malice?" From the two diffs you provided, the editor disagreed with Taxman's re-promotion of Carnildo and discussed it. They didn't explicitly attack either Carnildo or Taxman with anything more than opinions. I don't think dissenting opinions deserve a block, and if something in the grey area like this does, it is better to discuss your problems with the editor first, especially if you've had problems with them before. There was nothing urgent or dangerous about this matter which required an immediate block. The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 21:47, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

If 2-3 admins disagree with Tony Sidaway, I think that sends a strong message that the action was wrong in teh first place. Hbdragon88 19:43, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I think that events have proven the wisdom of that block. The issue has quite evaporated now that those who were engaged in pushing a ridiculous shrieking campaign against trusted Wikipedians have stopped. When a nurse lances a boil, sometimes she gets covered in malodorous filth and she may be blamed for the smell. The patient's health prospects are immediately improved, however. --Tony Sidaway 19:57, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

The problem is not Giano but Tony Sidaway

I see a big problem here and this problem is not Giano (talk · contribs), but Tony Sidaway (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA). Tony has turned the entire Misplaced Pages into a battleground between himself and anyone who dares to disagree with him. Tony has lately resorted to a more fiery methods of intimidation, including frivolous arbcom submissions and, most amazingly, blocks when the opponent is especially voiceful. His own recent activity ranged between foul language, personal attacks, intimidation and gross abuse. There is no single contribution into a single article in mainspace, which is also noteworthy.

Until Tony will stand in front of ArbCom for his contempt of everyone but himself, he needs time to chill out. I call on the community ro consider giving him a time to cool off. Perhaps a 1-3 day block will be enough for him to take a good use of a wikibreak, cool down and come back somewhat chilled out. --Irpen 21:46, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Again already? He got blocked just a couple of days ago as a naughty essay-deleter :) Haukur 22:16, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I thought it had been established that cooling-off blocks didn't do any good. Heaven knows there are howls of protest whenever one's proposed against a non-admin. Mackensen (talk) 21:49, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Is that sarcasm or do you agree that cooling off blocks do no good? —Nate Scheffey 21:55, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I've never seen them work, really, because it's difficult for someone to take a block in good grace. I don't blame you for asking, though. Mackensen (talk) 22:00, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

They work well if they're permitted to. I don't disagree with the unblock (all my blocks are subject to review and overturning with my implicit permission). I think we would have done well to permit Giano the time to reconsider the quite hysterical and false accusations of skulduggery and malice of his recent comments. --Tony Sidaway 21:58, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

You are wrong. This block would not have cooled Giano off. His comments were not hysterical. Saying so doesn't make it so. All of your blocks are subject to review regardless of your permission. —Nate Scheffey 22:06, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Ah, my impression is that he does post any potentially controversial blocks up for review, so I cannot see what you meaning is on this point.--MONGO 22:18, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Since he said "all my blocks" I'm not sure where you got "potentially controversial blocks" from. Regardless, my meaning is that on Misplaced Pages all of our actions are subject to review, no permission necessary. —Nate Scheffey 22:47, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Tony Sidaways' latest is another of those blocks that will obviously have the opposite effect of its stated intent. This needs to be addressed in WP:BLOCK. —Nate Scheffey 21:52, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Blocking isn't the answer. Furthermore, I'd encourage you to be careful with "voiceful" (I suspect you meant "forceful"). There's a very important line between arguing your point forcefully and trolling. It's often hard to tell the difference, and people have varying levels of tolerance. When in doubt, moderate one's language. Mackensen (talk) 21:53, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

(four edit conflicts) Agree that the problem is Tony. Disagree on the block. Other solutions are needed. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 21:56, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I believe Giano may be more than a little upset at the way Tony responds incivily to a civil (and might I add hypothetical) statement, then, called on it, says "ridiculous threats deserve to to be treated with loud and resounding contempt." Noting that one would call for Tony's recall if he were a bureaucrat is not any sort of threat that I can discern. Tony is being incivil; he has been consistenty policing post-Carnildo discussion to what seems to me a disruptive point, and he should perhaps block himself for three hours for a calm-down, if he finds such blocks generally effective. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 21:54, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Did anyone bother to discuss the blocking with Tony before reverting his action?--MONGO 22:02, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I think there was about as much discussion with Tony about unblocking as there was between Tony and Giano before he imposed the block. -- ALoan (Talk) 22:07, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi ho

If no one minds I'm going to attempt to stifle and censor discussion by proposing that this matter best be handled as dispute resolution between Giano and Tony Sidaway. Tony reported his block, the block has been undone. Nothing's going to be accomplished here save much grumbling and drama. We all know where the dispute pages are; we all know where to discuss the blocking policy. Administrative action isn't needed here. Mackensen (talk) 22:00, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I've got nothing further to say on the matter. Hopefully Giano will calm down now that more eyes are on him. --Tony Sidaway 22:03, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

(multiple edit conflicts) I see two issues here. If people agree that cool-off blocks do not work, why Tony is not yet reprimanded for the cool-off blocks against respected users who simply dare to disagree with him? I mean, some people cry foul loudly but since Tony does not care about the community's perception of himself, there is no consequences for him whatsoever. At the same time, he lately runs completely amok and that's not just me who says that. He needs not a cool-off period but a wiki-break. If he, like all of us, is such a wikiholic that he can't call a wikibreak by himself, the wikibreak must be called on him by the community. The disruption by Tony to an entire Misplaced Pages has become intolerable. Personally, I won't care if he blocks me. First of all, someone will likely unblock, and, second, I am here to write content and I will use the time to write an article or two on a hard-drive. But other users are more britle and take unfair blocks closer to heart. Tony's behavior drive out Wikipedians, and not those who like him spend their entire time chatting and lawyering, but those who write a FA once every 2-3 days. Users like the G-3 (Giano, George, Ghirlandajo), the Worldtraveller, 172 is hardly contributing. What the hell is happening? --Irpen 22:05, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

(Record number of edit conflicts) I strongly endorse the unblocking. I had been following the discussion on WP:BN today and Tony Sidaway was an active participant in it, disagreeing with several of the other users contributing. In the process, Tony made remarks that by his own admission on his talk page were uncivil and "over the top." Resort to the page history at BN is necessary because throughout the day, Tony refactored the discussion by deleting several comments that he disagreed with. Although BN is a project page rather than an article, Tony's blocking here was the equivalent of blocking to gain an advantage in an edit war, widely considered an unacceptable practice.

Under the circumstances, while I do not agree with everything Giano had to say, and I find that the ongoing debate on Carnildo's re-sysoping has become somewhat sterile, Tony certainly should not have been the blocking admin -- even had Giano said anything that could have warranted a block, which he did not. User:Giano is not some random troll to be driven away; he is a major contributor to the encyclopedia, who has had two featured articles on the Main Page within the past week, and is entitled to express his opinions on an administrative noticeboard, particularly where he is doing so more civilly than the person who chose to block him.

We are at the point that we have some valuable contributors who are living in fear of administrators will block them if they say something out of touch with the mood of the day -- not in an article, but in project space where meta-issues are supposed to be debated. A strong consensus should emerge from this that it's time for some folks to step away from the block button. Newyorkbrad 22:09, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Who are the contributors that are leaving for fear of being blocked for speaking their minds?--MONGO 22:16, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I cleaned up the BN and was thanked for doing so by several editors, including one bureaucrat. It doesn't matter what good Giano is doing elsewhere, his activities on use talk pages were inflammatory accusations of malicious skulduggery and he had been warned to stop. Newyorkbrad's false accusation of blocking to gain advantage in a dispute is unworthy of response. --Tony Sidaway 22:18, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Newyorkbrad, a relatively new editor, is also one of the most thoughtful commentators on meta-issues I have seen. You demean yourself by dismissing him thusly. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 22:20, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Thoughtful he may be, but when he's wrong he's wrong. --Tony Sidaway 22:21, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

He's not wrong. You are wrong. Dismissing his accurate and well reasoned objection as "unworthy of response" demonstrates conclusively that your civility issues need to be formally addressed. —Nate Scheffey 22:28, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Surely all opinions judged wrong by you are not "unworthy of response"? —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 22:24, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

No. Only the clearly ridiculous ones. --Tony Sidaway 22:43, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Thoughts on Two Users

User:Tony Sidaway is dedicated to this project. He has clearly spent thousands of hours serving Misplaced Pages as an administrator, as the ArbCom clerk (time-consuming and tedious I'm sure), and in meta-debate as well. When doing his job well, he is one of the most valuable Wikipedians. Unfortunately, Tony has his rough edges: by his own admission, he is sometimes uncivil; he says what's on his mind and minces no words; and lots of people have had to urge him more than once to cool down; and he's acknowledged that he has a fiery temper, to the point that he is subject to restrictions not placed on any other administrator. But he's put in his time; he's been subject to vicious personal attacks off-wiki for his work here; and he withstands it all and continues to work for Misplaced Pages.

User:Giano is dedicated to this project. He has clearly spent thousands of hours serving Misplaced Pages as a contributor to some of our best articles, and more recently to some extent in meta-debate as well. When doing his job well, he is one of the most valuable Wikipedians. Unfortunately, Giano has his rough edges: when provoked, he sometimes skirts the edges of civility; he says what's on his mind and minces no words; and lots of people have had to urge him more than once to cool down. But he's put in his time; he's been subject to inane block summaries and proposed (fortunately not enacted) ArbCom remedies; and he withstands it all and continues to work for Misplaced Pages.

There is a place for both of these people here, and it's not sitting behind blocks. Newyorkbrad 22:34, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Well put. Jkelly 22:37, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

The problem here is that what Giano has been doing is far beyond incivility. It is clearly false accusations, without evidence, of malicious wrongdoing. He remains very, very worked up about this, which is a shame, because we'd all like him to cool down and stop adding this stuff to user talk pages and trying to whip up hatred against other Wikipedians. Those actions are real problems. We may differ on what to do about them, but they won't go away just because we ignore them. --Tony Sidaway 22:54, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

• "we'd all like him to cool down and stop adding this stuff to user talk pages" I bet you would; but what stuff exactly Tony? Giano | talk 22:58, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

If that's what is happening, and there is a real behaviour problem, it isn't obvious enough yet, given that a whole bunch of us here couldn't see the block as even a necessary evil. If there is a problem that goes beyond Giano's... level of emphasis, it needs a lot more spelling out -- an RfC level of spelling-out, I'd suggest. Jkelly 23:05, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

It's abundantly obvious. "All of them I suspect were in on this - even Angela - there are no innocents here" and "I smell a rat, I see a rat, and I don't like it one little bit" make it plain that the fellow has taken to making false, quite unfounded and extremely damaging allegations about other Wikipedians. Asking for an RfC is superfluous. This is the kind of poison, in my opinion, that should never be spread around on Misplaced Pages. Since others can't see that I've no problem accepting that I was mistaken. --Tony Sidaway 23:43, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

//sigh// Well, I was hoping that perhaps what I wrote would induce Tony Sidaway to acknowledge that Giano has his merits, and Giano to recognize that Tony has his. Not working out that great so far, is it? Tony likes to write that he's "not one of life's mediators," and it looks like perhaps I shouldn't quit my day job either. Newyorkbrad 23:44, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Newyorkbrad, I have nothing against Giano and until the other day I don't think I'd ever heard of him. His recent actions have been, to say the least of it, odd. As an administrator I seek to deal with those actions. I'm not succeeding in this instance otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation, and I'll own up to that with no problems. However Giano's actions remain a problem for the community. --Tony Sidaway 23:48, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Block for tony sidaway

The discussion was transferred to User:Tony_Sidaway#Community_block_of_Tony_Sidaways_is_hereby_proposed

Drini, please do not remove the information from exactly appropriate space. While Admins are not the whole community, the community blocks are customarely discusses here because administrators are the only part of community that can implement them. This censorship isn't helpful. --Irpen 23:35, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Censorship: the authoritarian control of speech and other forms of human expression. I'm not controlling your speech. I'm not hiding your words. I'm moving it out from where it doesn belong. I'll put it then to Village Pump AND WHEN vconsensus to block tony is reached, a note can be post here for the adminsitrative action to take place

MOved to Misplaced Pages:Village pump (miscellaneous) post a note back when consensus is reached. -- Drini 23:41, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I have already warned Irpen about 3RR violation on this page, which he chose to delete from his Talk page as patronizing, so I'm putting it here. But I think the same warning needs to be given to Drini, as well. User:Zoe|(talk) 23:44, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Warning taken. -- Drini 23:46, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Several of my posts have been deleted tonight. I protest. Here they are again, with original timestamps. In one of his removals, Drini apparently mislaid this counterproposal of mine to the community block of Tony :

The transferred discussion has some omission. The most complete version before deletion by Drini can be accessed here --Irpen 01:02, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Counterproposal

I don't endorse blocking Tony. In view of many comments from respected editors above, and especially the reasoning of Bunchofgrapes and Newyorkbrad, I call on Tony to take a complete and officially announced break from the block button, for a suitable period of time pre-determined by himself. Please just pretend you don't have it, Tony. 22:44, 14 September 2006 (UTC).

And this post of mine was a comment on Drini's removal of text, which I would be interested in getting a response to:

An ill-judged move, Drini. AN is not a discussion forum? Since when? Sure it is. Why is the long discussion immediately above, not to mention the other long discussions on this page, appropriate for WP:AN — just not this one? A discussion of a proposal for a community block? Moving it to ANI might have been appropriate, but what business does it have on Tony's page? It's a proposal to the community, not to Tony. (Excepting my counterproposal, which is indeed to Tony.) You should move it back. 23:12, 14 September 2006 (UTC).

Bishonen | talk 00:34, 15 September 2006 (UTC).

Were they deleted or moved? There's a very important difference, and someone around as long as you knows what it is. Let's not stir up unnecessary drama here. Mackensen (talk) 00:56, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Deleted and moved. The reason I re-posted my proposal above was that it was no longer anywhere. Drini moved the discussion to User talk:Tony Sidaway , then deleted my proposal from there. It didn't come along for the brief round trip to the Village Pump and back. Drini's actions stirred up unnecessary drama, especially by having no edit summaries. Haven't you been here long enough not to pick on people, Mackensen? Bishonen | talk 01:32, 15 September 2006 (UTC).

Oh, probably. I'm not picking on you, I'm asking a very serious question, and I thank you for giving me the answer I wanted. I 'm certain I could have phrased that better, but what's said is said. For my part, I urged some time go that discussion of this matter either find its way to dispute resolution or simply be would up, instead of playing out here, where nothing will be accomplished except we'll all yell at each other a whole bunch more. Mackensen (talk) 01:36, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

The threads were moved multiple times (for good-faith reasons although it got to be a bit much), not deleted wholesale, but in the process, a few posts got lost in the shuffle. I had to post one comment four times before it stuck, because I was trying to add it to a thread that wasn't on the page where it was when I started typing. Newyorkbrad 00:58, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

The transferred discussion has some omission. The compelete version before deletion by Drini can be accessed here --Irpen 01:02, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Obviously malice aforethought. Let's ban him. I recall a charming posse calling for such an action just last week–and we had a devil of time chasing them off. I've been calling for the termination of the discussion, and I already admitted to attempted censorship above. I should probably be blocked as well for holding contrarian views and for desiring peace and quiet on the noticeboard. Mackensen (talk) 01:38, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I'll do my bit for peace and quiet here by not responding to that last comment. Oh dear, wait a minute, I seem to have ... (see paradox or self-reference). Newyorkbrad 01:42, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Langstaff_Secondary_School

Sorry to burden you guys, but you are admins and did at some point accept your post, with all the unpleasant drudgery that reports like this require ;). Anyway, Langstaff_Secondary_School seems to have had a lot of unreverted vandalism over the last couple of days, and quite possibly plenty before then. It is completely beyond me (well, it woul take an hour or so) to try and fix it and work out the isp to block (there have been a lot of pretty similar ip edits to it). It also seems like it needs protecting. At the moment it's at least partly vandalism, but my options were to revert to a prior state that was probably vandalised, blank it, or stubify it... I wasn't too happy with doing any of these. I don't envy the job of whoever has to fix this Dave 22:54, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Taken care of. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 23:00, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Special:Undelete, and User:ForestH2/Signpost

Could someone undelete, User:ForestH2/Signpost/In the news 9/4, User:ForestH2/Signpost/Candidate sues 9/4, and User:ForestH2/Signpost/Technology report 9/4? Thanks. ForestH2 t/h/c 00:05, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2006-09-05/Technology report
• Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2006-09-05/In the news

Feel free to recreate those redirects yourself. The third page was deleted as it was only three lines and "not worthy of an article" apparently. -- Steel 00:18, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Need "No consensus" AfD close

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Canton Crusaders has not been touched for about eight days, and there is a conflicting consensus. Can someone close this as "No consensus?" I was going to, but I remembered that those who have participated in AfDs cannot close them. The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 00:16, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Relisted. --bainer (talk) 03:14, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Inappropriate username

User:YouWontUnblockMeBecuaseYou'reProbably(ARepressed)Gay! It's probably already blocked, but I thought someone ought to take a look at this one... —Keakealani 00:22, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I think this one might need a block too (presumably the same user) User:IHopeYou'reKiddingAboutThatNaziComment.CauseTheyHateGays! —Keakealani 00:24, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Another: I don't know if I should keep a running list of these: User:IsThisWebsiteRunByTheMarines?..ThenStopBlockingUsGays!

Please use WP:AIV next time, and please simplfy your sig. Yanksox 00:26, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Apologies, I'm still rather new, so I'm not really familiar with the processes behind this. May I ask how to simply my signature? I won't sign with the automatic one, then, now, until I figure it out. --User:Keakealani

These were all blocked previously. You can check yourself before posting to WP:AIV. One of the easy ways is to go to the user's contributions and at the top the page it will list "For <user name> (Talk | block | Block log | Logs)". Click on the "Block log". -- JLaTondre 00:29, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay, thank you very much...so sorry for the trouble I caused - it was purely newbie blunders, since I've never ventured near this part of Misplaced Pages before *sweatdrop* And Thank you to Yanksox for letting me know about my signature...I was genuinely unaware that it was as long as it was or as disruptive...I hope this one is a bit better? If not, I can prune it down again. —Keakealani 05:27, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

It's good, lots of users have a green-colored letter in their signature to signify Esperenza. Hbdragon88 08:24, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Huge backlog of speedy deletion candidates

Category:Candidates for speedy deletion is filled to the brim. Many of these are obvious deletions (i.e. subpages of banned users). Can some admin just dive in? The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 01:33, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I've started on it, btw, but there is quite a bit. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 01:48, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm hoping in, I need to get back to the good 'ole stuff. Yanksox 01:51, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Phishing from wiki@wikimedia.org ?

I received this strange e-mail:

Someone (probably you, from IP address 24.121.44.189) requested that
we send you a new Misplaced Pages login password for en.wikipedia.org. 
The password for user "Janke" is now "XXXXXX". You should log in 
and change your password now. If someone else made this request 
or if you have remembered your password and you no longer wish to 
change it, you may ignore this message and continue using your old password.

What's going on here? The IP above is not even close to mine! Is someone else trying to get my logon password? Greetings, --Janke | Talk 06:32, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

It's someone else asking for a password reminder, it sends that to your registered and confirmed email address, as the message you got says "If someone else made this request ... you may ignore this message and continue using your old password". As to the other persons motivation, as an IP that user only has one edit so I can see no obvious connection. Beyond that it's guessing, could be someone thinking they could get your password (though that seems unlikely), could be someone who can't remember their own account details etc. --pgk 06:51, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Only one edit, yes, but probably from an anon IP that is changing with each access (such as AOL)? That edit was certainly not a newbie edit... --Janke | Talk 06:56, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

For a brute force attack, requesting a new password increases the size of your target, because there are now two passwords that will work. However, I tend to ignore such emails - six random numbers and letters are fairly hard to crack (2 billion variants). I suspect there are admins here who receive several of these every week, especially those with accounts on several Wikimedia projects. - Samsara (talk • contribs) 11:11, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

OK, thanks for the clarification. I'm a little wiser now... ;-) --Janke | Talk 12:15, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I've already had a few of these. I don't know what the wiki source code is like, but depending upon how these random passwords are generated there may well be a vulnerability here that someone is trying to exploit - I can certainly think of some hypotheticals. Dave 00:06, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Politics of Israel

This article is blank. Somebody has vandalized it. I don't know if that's proper place to put such an information, but I don't know where else do it. 83.238.15.162 06:49, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Fixed. Next time you can fix it yourself by going back into the page history, editing the last good version, and saving it. That overwrites the vandalised copy. Regards, Ben Aveling 06:59, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

NOTE: Please note that IP 65.105.179.195 appears to be on a blanking-vandalizing spree on Israel subjects, and needs to be blocked immediately. --Janke | Talk 07:01, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

• Seems to have stopped vandalising yesterday. -Mgm| 07:49, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Macedonia, yet again...

At Template_talk:EU_countries_and_candidates#Regarding_.7B.7BMKD.7D.7D, Niko Silver refuses to acknowledge that the neutral form in use on Misplaced Pages is "Republic of Macedonia", even in articles on or related to the European Union. Or am I wrong? —Nightstallion (?) 10:24, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I dunno - the Hutchinson Encyclopedia says that "Republic of Macedonia" is the "official internal name" and that "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" is the "official international name". --Telex 10:36, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

• If it's worth anything. They're referred to as FYR Macedonia in Eurovision song contests. But I don't see why either would be more neutral than the other. Removing Yugoslavia from the name may come across as hiding info that is significantly important. - Mgm| 12:43, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

As far as I was aware, RoM would prefer "Macedonia", Greece would prefer "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia", and most Misplaced Pages pages use "Republic of Macedonia" as a neutral compromise. The question is whether this should apply to all pages, or only to some; by Niko Silver's arguments, Republic of Macedonia should be at Macedona (country), however... ;p —Nightstallion (?) 14:26, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Influx of users using personal experience over verifiable sources

Apparently, User:Lentower has invited his friends (at least six of them) to oppose the deletion of his self-bio, filed at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Leonard H. Tower Jr.. Most of them have only a single contribution, which is to that AfD (which Lentower created and contributed to). At least one, Special:Contributions/Gonzopancho, has now started to contribute to other articles, with a tendency to refer to his own experience rather than verifiable sources. I'm busy, can someone keep an eye on these users? Thanks. - Samsara (talk • contribs) 10:52, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough, but I not that User:Gonzopancho gave a reasonable reference for the change, from the subject's own website no less, and a credible reason why the original date was wrong. Guy 13:19, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Subjects' own websites are generally not considered reliable sources. User:Zoe|(talk) 18:12, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

That is not always true. It really depends on who the subject is and what is being referenced. 172.190.124.131 19:42, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Subjects' own websotes are generally reliable sources for facts regarding the subject (e.g. you can cite a company website for numbers of employees, or a person's website for their date of birth). I can't say I've formed a firm view on this particular edit, but it looks OK on the surface. Guy 22:18, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

The Arbitration Committee has ruled in the past that it's inappropriate for users to add links to their own websites. --Ryan Delaney 23:06, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it's as simple as "never add a link to your own Web site". Doing so is a bad idea upwards of 90% of the time, sure, but I don't think there's a hard and fast rule against it and it sounds like this might reasonably fall into the other <10%. PurplePlatypus 07:29, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Sockpuppet of banned user: Please block

User:Pnatt's latest sockpuppet, User:Hockeypuck, has been vandalizing MySpace with a Pnatt-like motive and results. He also appears to be talking to himself on the talk page, but that is not necessarily true. -- Chris chat edits essays 14:02, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Blocked. --Sam Blanning 18:29, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

User:LordByronKing

I have indefinitely blocked LordByronKing (talk · contribs) for repeatedly inserting his name and nn books into articles all over Misplaced Pages. He has yet to respond to any messages on his Talk page. I have indicated that I will entertain an unblock request if he pledges to stop the spamming. User:Zoe|(talk) 18:17, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Temporary injunction in the Kosovo arbitration case

For the duration of this case, any of the named parties may be banned, by an uninvolved administrator, from Kosovo or related pages for disruptive edits.

Affected users are listed in the case, and have all been notified. The affected articles (and two templates) have all been labelled with appropriate notices.

For the Arbitration Committee. --Tony Sidaway 18:40, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

DreamGuy Accused of violating sock protocol

What is going on ? I was visiting with DreamGuy when I found the WP:SOCK matter. Anything to this matter ?Martial Law 18:59, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

According to this checkuser request, Essjay found it likely that Victrix is a sockpuppet of DreamGuy. Both disappeared in the next few days; DG has only made a few edits.--Cúchullain /c 19:22, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Just got home from the pub so excuse my bad grammar. This has been discussed before. Nothing much more to add bar the info above but the evidence is overwhelming. Both had similar edit times, had similar edit summaries, edited the same articles and the account was used to voilate the 3RR rule, e.g. Victrix would rv 3 times then DG would step in and vise versa. Englishrose 23:43, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Pistonheads

Loads of vandalism in the last hour, a second ip is just starting to get to work. Needs sprotecting really. Probably at least half my fault because I posted on the message boards at the site saying that we really needed to get a decent page up that was proportionate to the size of the site. Current vandalistic users on wikipedia are banned from the site too. Dave 23:56, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Semi-protected, hopefully in a reasonably non-vandalised state. The article does need some serious work though. Gwernol 00:23, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Favouring admins involved in 3RR violations?

I was going to drop this matter, but I am still uneasy about it and decided to interrupt my wikibreak to get at least get some community comments on the matter. User:UtherSRG, an admin has recently engaged in revert war with 154.20.161.143 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) with a total of 6 reverts over two days (including 4 reverts within 24 hours) on Paranthropus (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) within 24 hours labelling the revers as vandalism. However, the anon editor was trying to discuss this matter on the talk page, and in a very civil way. The dispute was over the accuracy of the article and the reliability of the article sources. The anon user reported the UtherSRG to WP:AN/3RR where he was himself blocked by User:Winhunter for 3RR violation and UtherSRG was left without as much as a note on his talk page.

I came into this incident when 154.20.161.143 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) put up an unblock request describing the matter. I found his 3RR report, reviewed it, and not realising that User:UtherSRG was an administrator, I have blocked him for 24 hours and put a note on his talk page informing him of the block. A couple of seconds later, on the admin channel on IRC, I was informed that I had just blocked an admin. After 10 minutes of discussion on IRC, User:Glen_S decided that because a lot of his reverts were reverting {{unreferenced}} tags on a "referenced" article he could be unblocked.

However, at the beginning of the revert war, there were absolutely 0 references in the article (see the version at the time of the first revert), later on the anon explained his concerns on the talk page, put in an unreferenced tag, and a disputed assertion tag on one of the statements, this again was reverted as vandalism using admin rollback. The admin anon reverted the revert asking for discussion, this was removed again using admin rollback, more links were added by the UtherSRG, the anon expressed futher very legitimate concerns about the reliability of the online sources and about neutrality of the article and put in POV and unreferenced tags but was again reverted multiple times. UtherSRG has made only two small comments on the talk page, not even bothering to address the last detailed statement describing his rationale for each tag - instead of addressing it 4 reverts were made, including 3 admin rollbacks.

I am not happy that an admin was favoured in this case for what clearly looks to me like a revert war NOT vandalism reversion as the edit summaries suggest. And I am not happy that admins can run around using their admin rollbacks in revert wars without decent attempts at discussion. I don't agree with the technicality used to lift the block on UtherSRG, that was pointed out to me on IRC - i.e. that the Template:Tk tags are meant to refer to articles with absolutely 0 references. An anon has no way of knowing all the tags available on wikipedia, otherwise he could have used something more like: {{Primarysources}}, which even I did not know of until just a couple of minutes ago! And in any case these are not the only tags that were reverted. For me it looks like that UtherSRG, who got out of this unscathed, is more at fault than the anon who was blocked for "3RR violation and disruption" while actually trying to discuss the matter and being the one who reported the incident in the first place!

So I would like to know what everyone else thinks on this matter.--Konstable 00:04, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I have found one place where I write "the admin" instead of "the anon" so I went back and replaced the instances where I referred to UtherSRG as "the admin" with his name. Nothing else is changed--Konstable 00:55, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I didn't mark any of the reverts as vandalism. I often use the admin rollback as it is very convenient and gives an automatic and very neutral edit summary. My first rollback was followed immediately by an edit where I add a reference, countering the anon's complaint. Etc. If the anon has relevant information to add to the article they should do so instead of complaining at the state of the artcle and slapping tags on it. I didn't add the majority of the information, but I helped clean up the edits of several other, well informed, editors. Perhaps my biggest offense is WP:BITE, where I have little patience for non-productive armchair quarterbacking. The anon showed little interest in editing, only in complaining that the article didn't reflect the POV they felt was more valid. - UtherSRG (talk) 00:54, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

WP:ADMIN and the Guanco, MarkSweep, et al arbitration case says to never use the rollback for any old reason, for only vandalism. Rollback summaries are essentailly blank ones: vandalism is the only self-explanatory reason. Otherwise it should be explained. Hbdragon88 07:38, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

This I did not know. I do not (and can not) keep up to date on all of the Wiki rules and policies. There are way too many and they change way too frequently to keep current on. Taht said, the edit summary of the rollback must be changed to indicate it is reverting vandalism if, indeed, that is the current policy. Until the edit summary matches the policy and is changed from its neutral wording to one that states it is revertin vandalism, then the policy is flawed and should be disregarded as it doesn't match the effect of the software. - UtherSRG (talk) 12:51, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

So UtherSRG was unnblocked because he technically didn't break the 3RR since he only reverted the {{POV}} tag twice, and removed the {{unreferenced}} tag. But if that is so, then I technically did not break 3RR either. How can I be at fault but not him?

I was not aware that adding external links was considered citing sources. On the Paranthropus talk page I explained why I had added the unreferenced tag. If it is true that external links are considered references, that could have been explained to me on the talk page and I would not have re-added the same tag.

"If the anon has relevant information to add to the article they should do so instead of complaining at the state of the artcle and slapping tags on it. I didn't add the majority of the information, but I helped clean up the edits of several other, well informed, editors. Perhaps my biggest offense is WP:BITE, where I have little patience for non-productive armchair quarterbacking. The anon showed little interest in editing, only in complaining that the article didn't reflect the POV they felt was more valid. - UtherSRG (talk) 00:54, 16 September 2006"

I find this statement offensive and erroneous. In the Parathropus talk page I clearly said: "There is no consensus in the scientific community that the species A. aethiopicus, A. boisei and A. robustus belong in the genus Paranthropus. They are commonly referred to as A. aethiopicus, A. boisei and A. robustus in current peer reviewed articles and books. To provide a neutral viewpoint, both models of classification systems should be described in detail. For these reasons I have added a disputed tag. Please do not remove until article is updated to be NPOV." and "What I am suggesting is that BOTH models of classification systems are mentioned and described in detail. For these reasons, I have added a POV tag. Please do not remove the tag until both classification systems are given the equal attention which they deserve" I was not trying to promote my own POV as I do not have an opinion on which genus the three species belong to. All I was attempting to do by adding the tags was trying to bring attention to the false statement that there is a consensus on that subject in the scientific community. I even provided references on the talk page to show that it was not my personal point of view, but that of textbooks. There are many different ways to contribute to wikipedia, just because I don't make major changes to the article does not mean my edits should be discounted. IMO, alerting others that an article is POV is productive editing (if not, why even have the tags). I would also like to note I tried to continue the discussion on the talk page with UtherSRG, but he responded by saying "(rv I tked, we disagreed, i have nothing left to say.)" which I found to be very discourteous. 154.20.161.143 03:38, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Could you state the case briefly? If the point is that someone who has a sysop bit was given false favor in an edit warring situation, then this is a serious matter. Nobody should edit war. Admins especially should not edit war. --Tony Sidaway 03:41, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Very brief summary edit war on Paranthropus (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) between anon 154.20.161.143 and admin UtherSRG. On anon's report to WP:AN/3RR the anon was blocked, UtherSRG was not blocked. I blocked UtherSRG when responding to anon's unblock request,without realising he was an admin, after IRC discussion someone else unblocked him on what seems to be a technicality over tag definitions to me. Either way, even 3RR was technically not violated, they were both revert warring.--Konstable

I don't understand what you mean here or what Glen S means in the unblock summary. I count 5 reverts by UtherSRG within 24 hours. It makes no difference that both were revert warring or that he was removing a reference tag on an ostensibly referenced article. —Centrx→talk • 05:08, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Well the {{unreferenced}} tag does say that the article cites no sources, since the article has no sources putting in this tag is techincally wrong, that is what User:Glen S had meant at least. Though I don't really see this as a valid excuse for reverting.--Konstable 08:35, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Remove Template:Afd2 whitespace

As I'm not trusted with admin tools, could someone go and remove the excess whitespace at Template:Afd2. It's because it has now been edited with a hidden comment warning, telling users to be more considerate to outside users to stop people mailing WP:OTRS and complaining. I'm not too happy that there's any message there at all as I mentioned in the talk page, but before anything is done about the message, please remove the whitespace. - Hahnchen 00:51, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I've reverted the commented warning for now, because, as I said in my edit summary, this is a template which people subst without ever reading the full text contained in the template. And, frankly I couldn't care less if spammers are whining about their spam being deleted. That I didn't say in the edit summary. I suggest further discussion is taken to Template talk:Afd2. --Sam Blanning 01:05, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Deleted Misplaced Pages Page

if you search for Jeffree Star the page is deleted and i don't realise why this would be so. I'm not that good with the user tools so could someone put the page back on or at least start it up? Thank's :] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.180.137.162 (talk • contribs) .

The page Jeffree Star was deleted because it does not assert the notability of its subject. If he became notable he'll get an article until then this was correctly deleted and won't be recreated. Please read WP:BIO and WP:MUSIC for details on the specific notability guidelines that apply. Thanks, Gwernol 03:41, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Just a note. The article has been deleted now by 'six' different admins. User:Zoe|(talk) 03:15, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Request for Unblock

I take my rejection straight to Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Tony Sidaway_4 on this so called "community ban." Since it is through the community users rather than the formal committee i feel that RFC is sufficient rather than Arb-comm. Please let me come back Le Wiki Brah 06:19, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi Le Wiki Brah. Perhaps it would be a better idea to speak to Tony Sidaway first as opposed to filing an RfC? -- Samir धर्म 12:20, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Silly me, I didn't see the thread above -- Samir धर्म 12:21, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Code bug

Sigh hope I'm in the right place. Bug in the page code for the entry on DDT. Box content on right-hand side not able to appear.

• I'm afraid this is the wrong place. Try WP:HD. = Mgm| 11:21, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Block to review

I have blocked User:133.41.4.46 for the 3RR violation on Holodomor - 5 reverts in two hours, user was warned. Posting here since I was involved in the disputeabakharev 11:21, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Generally speaking, don't block users you're in a dispute with. If they need a block, get another admin involved. — Werdna talk criticism 11:40, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Werdna on this matter; I also agree with the need for the 3RR block. I would recommend allowing the block to stand, but definitely don't do it again. Captainktainer * Talk 12:12, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

User:133.41.4.46 made an edit to add Category:Genocide to the article Holodomor. The following edits were all concerned with adding and removing this category. There were 5 reverts to delete it. He only made 4 reverts to reinstate it (the first of his 5 edits was not a revert). His first edit was at 10.28. The first and second reverts against him were at 10.32 and 10.36 by User:Irpen. The third was at 10.43 by User: Alex Bakharev. The fourth at 11.47 10.47 by Irpen (his 3rd revert) and the fifth by Alex Bakharev (his 2nd revert) at 11.16.

This was an edit war which all three users engaged in. As it was two editors acting against one, 133.41.4.46 would inevitably fall foul of 3RR first. It does not speak well of any of the editors involved, particularly an admin, especially when the latter blocked his opponent and made his preferred edit 2 minutes later.

133.41.4.46 made his 3rd rv at 10.46 and was warned for 3RR a minute later. However, at 10.43 the 3rd rv had actually been made against him (Bakharev's 1st rv, following 2 by Irpen).

At 10.57, 133.41.4.46 had left a justification for his edit on Bakharev's talk page. There was no response to this and at 11.07, Irpen made his 3rd rv and the 4th in total against 133.41.4.46., who rv 3 minutes later and was blocked. Then Bakharev made his 2nd rv and the 5th in total against 133.41.4.46.

The net effect is that an editing decision has been achieved by force rather than argument, and that an adroit use of the rules has been employed to achieve this. It is not in wiki's interest to tolerate such practice. Two users acting in concert have been as guilty in spirit, if not the strict letter of the law, as the single user.

I commend Bhakarev for bringing this to AN, but he cannot expect to receive a "get out of jail free" card for doing so. I propose that all three editors involved need to back off and cool down, and if Bhakarev considers that a block is needed to do this, then he and Irpen should also receive one; or he may decide that the block on 133.41.4.46 was unjustified in the circumstances and remove it, in order to respond to continue the dialogue which 133.41.4.46 initiated on his talk page. and which he has so far ignored. See clarification below

Tyrenius 14:27, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Clarification: 133.41.4.46 made the post initiating dialogue at 10.57. 133.41.4.46's final edit was at 11.10. Bhakarev responded to 133.41.4.46's post at 11.12 and then immediately blocked 133.41.4.46 at 11.14 (at which time Irpen also responded to the post).

Tyrenius 17:08, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

This situation needs some more responses to it. Tyrenius 21:45, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

The edits to Holodomor were repeats of the edits of User:Alex Kov (see e.g. this dif) so all the five edits are reverts. The edit were intensively discussed by Irpen on Alex Kov's talk page User_talk:Alex_Kov#Rurikid_image_and_Holodomor and User_talk:Alex_Kov#Holodomor he did not answer. User:Alex Kov and the anonim are the same person. They not only do the same edits to Holodomor, but also highly unusual edits to Rurikids princes see history of Sviatoslav I of Kiev, Yaroslav I the Wise, Vladimir I of Kiev as well Japanese prefectures. He did not answer Irpen's comments. In any case I warned the user about the 3RR rule but he choose to ignore it. That is my explanation. If you feel that I should be blocked, please go ahead, but Irpen did not do anything illegal, no violated any policy. abakharev 22:05, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your offer of being blocked, which shows integrity, though it is not something which I will do unilaterally. I wondered if something of what you said was occurring, but, assuming that it is true, a different approach is preferable. You are stating that a user is employing socks abusively, and the tack should be to resolve that situation. The anon has been editing as such for some time. Two against one, as in the current situation, always looks bad, especially when one is a blocking admin. It doesn't help our reputation for fairness. Tyrenius 23:07, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

BTW I find the Tyrenius's interpretation of WP:3RR to be extremely unusual. In my opinion the whole point of 3RR is that it is a surrogate of polling: if three editors prefer one version and two prefer another than the most popular opinion wins. So do not worry if you are right somebody else will restore your version. Now, if the interpretation is that you are not allowed to revert if somebody did two similar reverts before you then the effect on the editing process is quite dramatic. I am not sure how Wiki is suppose to work if everybody is allowed to revert against the consensus and the consensus is not allowed to revert back. abakharev 03:13, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, it is a completely nonsensical interpretation of 3RR. 3RR applies to individual editors, not groups of editors. If one were to rule according to Tyrenius's view, it would mean that one editor could hold an article hostage against the will of any number of other editors, and we would have a "1RR rule", not a "3RR rule". Rather, if one individual is reverted by three other editors, that is not a sign that they have all violated 3RR, but rather a sign of consensus against that first editor's view. Jayjg 03:47, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd disagree with you there. The 3RR exists to encourage that people stop reverting, and actually take the issue to the talk page. Those reverting changes which are not vandalism should include "discuss on talk page" in their edit summaries. The 3RR rule can only be broken by a group when enforcing recient agreed consensus. Edit summaries do not provide enough space to include reasoning, preventing most forms of informed consensus being reached without having to use the talk page. If groups could act to ignore the 3RR, meatpuppetry and gang actions would become the prefered means to edit. LinaMishima 03:50, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

3RR in no way applies to groups, and never has. Groups who agree on something are not a "gang", or "meatpuppets", but rather "consensus". Jayjg 03:57, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I completely agree with JayJG, at some stage I thought I have gone mad. Besides the talk page to the article and its archives are plastered with the discussion if the Holodomor was a genocide and how to better formulate the facts. The latest section Talk:Holodomor#Genocide_once_more is specifically about the category. There was also a discussion on the User Talk:Alex Kov page that belong to the blocked user. Really the Category:Democides is a result of long arguments and is a compromise abakharev 04:09, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree as well. 3RR does not apply to "groups", but to individual editors. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 04:12, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Jayjg, consider a fairly common case wereby a group of editors wish to refuse to follow policy. In cases like this, their acts are simply not consensus. Misplaced Pages uses informed consensus, based on an understanding of policy, guidelines, good practice and so on. One does not create informed consensus through the brute pushing of a viewpoint (about all that's practical in the edit summary length), but through detailed discussion and evaluation. If 3RR represented a consensus, this would send the message that ignoring the concept of informed consensus is perfectly acceptable. 3RR must apply to groups also to stop group edit wars, another common occurance wereby the editors of an article all take sides, and there are enough of them to prevent 3RR from being noticably reached. If a consensus has formed on the talk page, the best approach is for the first reverter to state "See the talk page". If the original editor cannot find the entry, they then may leave a summary of "could not find the section". The next revert should then either point out the most recient clear consensus, or state "Let's dicuss this". It seems to me in this case that the group reverting was justified, but they allowed an edit summary argument to occur rather than continuing to attempt to drag the matter onto the talk page LinaMishima 04:25, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

3RR appling to "groups", not just individuals? No. Never has, and never will. Talk about "policy creep." Lina, you've been contributing to the project now, what, like two months? You may want to consider spending a little more time contributing to articles and getting to better understand policy and convention here before lecturing us on how policy is applied. Especially to arbcom members. FeloniousMonk 05:20, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I note that you choose to use the age of my account as an argument, rather than actually debating the subject via reason. WP:BITE probably applies here. If you check through my edits, you'll see I am contributing quite nicely, and the situations I am refering to are occuring in articles I am editing. The literal interpretation behind the 3RR rule does not apply to groups, no. But the spirit of the rule is to prevent edit wars, which often may not consist of only two users, or one user verses 'the rest'. LinaMishima 05:39, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

This is not a case of BITE, rather, this is a case of experience mattering. FM clearly stated that you might want to spend time "getting to better understand policy and convention here" - a gentle reminder that perhaps you simply don't understand the policy well, not a bite. KillerChihuahua 08:27, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I just came online and found out this amazing thread from the note left by Tyrenius at my talk. If he had some questions on the issue, he could have asked for details if he is too busy to spend a little time to clear this up from the edit histories on his own. I would have happily answered all his questions and so would Alex, who found himself bizzardly accused in Admin abuse.

Here is the situation. Anon IP 133.41.4.46 (talk · contribs), who is also User:133.41.4.47 which both are also Alex Kov (talk · contribs) who chooses to edit without logging in switching between these two IPs and in all likelihood also Oleksiy (talk · contribs) appears to be a non-responding sterile revert warrior. He has his views. That's fine of course. What's not fine is that he resorts to abusive methods to force his POV into the articles, such as switching between IPs and usernames, not responding to attempts to talk, to calls to register and/or edit from an account, and when he finally said something, he just made a bunch of curt statements that defy days and days of talk discussions.

His entire edit history to this day consisted from:

• removing multiple times a well referenced piece from History of Cossacks article
• sterile revert warring in several articles trying to insert the WP:OR images he drew in defiance of historical research (see his images). Involved articles include Sviatoslav I of Kiev , Yaroslav I the Wise , Rurik Dynasty and Vladimir I of Kiev (in the latter he was also removing a photo from a historical monument as well as the dab on top
• Finally, on the very same day something got to him to start a sterile rv war aimed at adding cat:Genocide to Holodomor. The latter issue has been discussed at talk:Holodomor to death and the current version reflects the outcome of that discussion that the article should reflect that some researchers consider it a Genocide but such a view is not as generally accepted as e. g. for the Holocaust. I am well involved on that article and I wrote much for it. I participated in lengths of discussions at the talk. I am intimately familiar with the state of the art in the research of the issue. The anon/sock was first reverting in silence and after multiple calls at several talk pages to talk, he defiantly stated that some laws exist that claim that Holodomor was indeed a Genocide. I pointed to him that no law can say such a thing. The law he probably means is the UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. Convention provides only a definition and does not list any specific cases. As such, it is up to scholars to agree or disagree on whether the definition fits a specific case. The scholarly debate is still unresolved as presented in the article. He did not respond and resorted to sterile reverting despite being warned multiple times.

When finally Alex Bakharev blocked the editor who did nothing but disruption we get these strange "reviews", like the 14:27, 16 September 2006 (UTC) post by Tyrenius. More can be seen at anon's talks and User talk:Alex Bakharev#Holodomor. The statement that "The net effect is that an editing decision has been achieved by force rather than argument," is plain incorrect. The article was simply restored to pre POV-push attempt that it reached through prolonged discussion and search by multiple editors. The "..don't be reckless" clause at WP:BB is there for a very good reason. I thoroughly agree with statements above that revert wars are harmful and useless and discussion should be always preferred but with certain editors it is imnpossible to discuss things. Editors who refuse to talk, ignore calls to read past discussions, refuse to use registered accounts and instead use multiple IPs to circumvent 3RR by such activity exhaust the WP:AGF guideline and need to be tought to become responsive if they can't be talked into that. If Tyrenius or anyone else has more questions on the matter, I am looking forward to hear from him. --Irpen 07:07, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I spent some time analysing not only the edits, but also the article talk page. Each situation has to be judged on its own merits. I am not suggesting a rigid rule that should be imposed everywhere. I am assessing whether this situation was conducted properly, and I find there are aspects which don't meet the standard we should aim for. Accusations of sockpuppetry are being made now: those things should have been addressed initially, not afterwards here, when the editor is not even able to participate. 3RR is never an excuse to get away with reverting 3 times: it is a barrier to reverting any more than three times. The spirit of this is that there should not be mindless edit wars.

I am concerned that there was not dialogue, and that, even though the anon tried to initiate it, it was only responded to 2 minutes before he was then blocked. That is not something to be encouraged. The editors opposing him were relying on being able to escape the strict 3RR by having more reverts at their disposal. This is not in accord with the aim of the 3RR rule. That rule operates when there is a consensus to stop a rogue editor, but two editors is hardly a consensus. I don't find that this short but intense session of reverts over a single category in this way reflects well on any of the participants, especially when it is finally resolved by one of the involved editors blocking his opponent.

Irpen's basis of argument is also questionable, as he has decided that the term "genocide" can only be agreed if scholars are united in its application, and that its use by governments is invalid. This, to say the least, is not definitive, but is now seen as the arbiter of consensus over the issue in this article.

Some of the arguments above have descended to ad hominem (and pro hominem). That is not the sign of a good argument. Let us address the points on their merit, not on who made them.

Tyrenius 11:57, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Shanghai bus deleted by mistake

While editing Shanghai Bus, the server went down. Now the text is deleted, and I can't get it back no matter how many times I try to paste my edit in. It's blank. I don't want to be named a vandal. --Outlook

It's fixed; don't worry. Take a look at the five bullet points at the top of Help:Reverting to learn how to do this yourself in the future. Happy editing. ~ PseudoSudo 13:19, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

G.I. Joe character list DELETED without cause. It was a valid list.

Dream Focus 14:15, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I am the creator of a page that was formerly found at http://en.wikipedia.org/G.I._Joe_character_list

It listed a name of every character from the series. Dozens of these names also had links to wikipedia pages others have created about those characters.

I believe it is a very valuable and valid page.

Why the sudden deletion?

I checked the deletion logs, but they don't even list it.

Since I see other series have pages with list of all characters from that series, complete with links to wikipedia articals about those characters, I don't understand why mine was deleted. Surely it is the result of vandalism.

This information is listed nowhere else.

http://en.wikipedia.org/GI_Joe The main G.I. Joe page has a link to my list. And the list of hundreds of names wouldn't really fit on that page.

Can someone undelete this please, and tell me if it was a vandal that destroyed it somehow?

Um, the list seems to be there: G.I. Joe character list. Am I missing something? --ZimZalaBim (talk) 14:21, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Huh? I still see it - G.I. Joe character list. —AySz88\^-^ 14:22, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

There was some sort of weirdness going on. I went there and it gave me the "Misplaced Pages does not have an article by this name" page, but didn't have a deletion log. In fact, the history log was still available and when I clicked "edit this page" it looked like the article. I clicked "save page" without changing anything and the page was back (with no record of any edit by me). Seems like some sort of glitch? --Fastfission 14:26, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps not clearing your cache resulted in this? Flcelloguy (A note?) 01:19, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I thought it perhaps had something to do with the database error of yesterday. I had someone today thinking I deleted an article. The article indeed seemed gone. Purging did the trick. Garion96 (talk) 01:28, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Mccready is issued a 30 day community ban from editing all articles related to Pseudoscience

Based on this discussion on AN/I and the numerous comments on Mccready's talk page, Mccready (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) is issued a 30 day community ban from editing all articles related to the Pseudoscience. Mccready is encouraged to discuss his ideas on the talk pages of these articles. The the suggested sanction for disregarding the article ban is a 24 hour block with the block time adjusted up or down according to Mccready's response. Admins are encouraged to monitor the ongoing effectiveness of this article topic ban and make appropriate adjustments if needed. FloNight 22:03, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

• Hm, interesting. There was a discussion about community probation last week (i.e. deciding that a user should stay away from certain articles, as opposed to a community ban which decides a user must stay away from the entire 'pedia). Based on the response there, it sounds like a good idea to give this a shot. Based on the heavy mailflow on the Admin Noticeboard, I figured it might be a good idea to log all current probations on a single page (but please keep all related discussion on this page). I've created a log at Misplaced Pages:Community probation with some deliberately vague language at the top (feel free to edit) because I'm quite sure we don't need a formal legislative process for this. >Radiant< 22:48, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Good idea. Logged here. --FloNight 23:29, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, good idea. FeloniousMonk 05:23, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Jason Gastrich

Jason Gastrich has emailed me asking that his community ban be rescinded. He promises not to use sockpuppets and to serve out the term of his one-year arbcom ban, counted from the date of the last sock activity. Opinions? Stifle (talk) 22:12, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

The problem was not in the main the sockpuppetry, although that was a massive problem in itself, the problem was his contempt for policy and consensus, his use of external sites to solicit support, and abnove all his apparnet desire to use Misplaced Pages first and foremost as a vehicle to promote his own agenda. Guy 22:20, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with JzG's no. View the edits made at Louisiana Baptist University by new users. I strongly ask that his ban not be lifted. There is no compelling evidence his behavior has changed or will change.

During RfAR he didn't even bothering apologizing, admitting sock puppets, or coming to terms with his actions. He denied his actions, had contempt for other users and the rules. Arbusto 22:28, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Count it from the "last day of sock activity"? So yesterday? Shog5 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) made the same edits as a new user a few months ago. He is permantently banned from the Louisiana Baptist University article and it still gets hit. Here's a new user adding Gastrich's webpage to the article. Here's different a new user adding the same Gastrich page. Adding another Gastrich page.

The links added recently, go back to what he stated in the RfRA: "I disagree with JzG and Arbusto's viewpoint that a link to one of my web pages or a link that I agree with should be discussed on the talk page first, in fact I find this downright unfair and wrong." He was here to promote himself and his views no matter what the rules are. Arbusto 22:39, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Opinions? Sure, I can do that. Here it is: No. --Sam Blanning 02:27, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

It's the silly season. All the daft banned trolls are crawling back and asking to be given another chance. No. --Tony Sidaway04:18, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Um, no. Not one of our prolific and disruptive biased sockpuppeteers. FeloniousMonk 05:21, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Rob Levin

I don't know how familiar people here are with him but apparently a large number of people on the Misplaced Pages IRC channel knew him. No disrespect intended, but this article is recreation of previously deleted content. See the first AfD which apparently he himself initated by saying he didn't feel he was notable enough for a Misplaced Pages article. Now I know I could tag it as db-repost but I feel even tagging it as such may generate some ill will. I'd like to get a consensus about what should be done here first, perhaps circumstances have changed and the community indeed feels he is now notable enough for an article. VegaDark 02:13, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

The AFD was about 9 months ago, and circumstances have changed so db-repost isn't sutible, another AFD would likely be kept as well. Jaranda 02:19, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

(After edit conflict) In that case the article should state what makes him more notable now than when he was at the time of the first AfD. From what I can by the information in the article, his claims to notability have not changed since January, hence the first AfD would stand. VegaDark 02:32, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

According to the log and history, the article was restored today to restore the edit history after content was merged; before that it had been redirected to Peer-Directed Projects Center since January. The redirect has now been undone, but if content has been merged it can't be simply deleted. The thing to do would be to get consensus to re-redirect the article in the normal way. Incidentally, dying is not a claim to notability. I would have been perfectly willing to delete this per CSD G4 if this was just a standard repost (which it isn't). --Sam Blanning 02:24, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

(Just got edit conflicted twice) Well, I think he is a lot more notable now then ever before.... but freenode only has a few thousand users, and I haven't a clue if that makes him notable. Personally I think we need to find a reliable biography to use as a source, because as it stands, all we know about is his death. (which earlier incarnations of the article didn't even have). Ok, time for google. Michael Billington (talk • contribs) 02:27, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

• The page has been reverted to a redirect and reverted back to an article twice each now. I still have yet to see any new information towards his notability that would show why he is more notable since the AfD in January. VegaDark 19:13, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Desg

I am sorry, I am very, very green and I doubt I am doing this correctly, but there it is.

This user is a spammer: http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/Desg

All his contributions are adding his commercial links to Wiki pages.

In particular, on this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/Stained_glass

He has removed a very valuable link about stained glass restoration and replaced it with a link to his newly formed forum. He has added a very plain stained glass window of his in the middle of the world's best examples, with a link to his commercial site.

On this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/Lead_came_and_copper_foil_glasswork

He added a link to a tool he sells and did a similar trick with the external links as he did for the page above.

Most importantly, after the pages were restored, he promptly returned to spam the Wiki pages again, and added his spammy links once more.

I understand there is some sort of warning system but I am not confident enough to do this, I cannot be sure I will do it right.

I would appreciate if someone could oversee this matter. Thank you.

Recommend adding downeaststainedglass.com on the spam blacklist. Hbdragon88 06:02, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

With spammers, you usually warn them incrementally with templates {{spam}}, {{spam2}}, {{spam3}}, {{spam4}} each time they return to their activity. Use their talk page for that. If they persist, you report them at WP:AIV. See WP:UTM for other warning templates. Conscious 07:45, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

He is also spamming with stainedglassville.com and free-recipe-site.com RogerJ 09:26, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

This person Roger J has a personal hatred for me and is attempting to destroy my credentials. Please call me by phone to discuss further if you have any questions. My phone # is at the bottom of my website Down East Stained Glass I can produce legal harrassment papers to back my claims. DESG

Whether or not this is the case (it is certainly odd that his only contributions here are related to you), for the most part he is correctly interpreting Misplaced Pages standards. Our External links policy strongly discourages editors from adding links to their own sites and/or to commercial sites. FreplySpang 14:20, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Please note that this user has removed warnings to his talk page with this edit. I have restored the warnings and added {{subst:Wr0}} as appropriate, as it appears this user may not understand our policies regarding talk pages but did not appear to remove the warnings in a botched archiving attempt or as part of a formatting error. Captainktainer * Talk 15:39, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

He's been temporarily blocked for violating 3RR. --ZimZalaBim (talk) 18:41, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Redirecting sites

Please redirect U-Pass to Universal Transit Pass as applies only to Vancouver area whereas the other one is in a broder sense in being Canadian.

--Cahk 07:38, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

• Followed up on user's talk page. Herostratus 07:57, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Category:Protected deleted pages

This category has grown overly huge over the years, and frankly it is pretty ugly to visitors of the encyclopedia that might even end up there via Special:Randompage. In my opinion we should prune it. I have been trying to replace a few with sensible redirects, but for most of this list I can't think of any. What I'd like to do is generate a list of all PDPs that are older than, say, three months, and delete the lot of those (because I don't think most recreators are all that persistent in the first place). What would people think of that? >Radiant< 10:35, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely, this is horrible clutter - and in some cases it's even blocking the creation of legitimate articles. I proposed cleanup procedures a while back at Template_talk:Deletedpage#How_temporary_is_this.3F. Haukur 11:01, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd say go for it. Most of the recreators are just bored schoolkids who will have wandered off elsewhere by the end of the day anyway. Deleting 3 month old deleteprotected pages should be no problem (even 1 month old should not be a problem in general), I think most of the "backlog" is simply due to the fact that most admins, myself included, just protect a page and then forget about it. --Sherool (talk) 11:35, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd also support this as long as a suitable time period is given (such as one to three months, per Sherool (talk). While I don't want to name names, there is an administrator who is currently arbitrarily undoing these deleted pages with the edit summary "Old deleted-protected page unlikely to be recreated." The problem is that a number of the pages he/she is undoing were protected only days ago. While there is nothing wrong with getting rid of these pages once the risk of vandalism and such has passed, doing so after only a few days is a a waste of everyone's time. --Alabamaboy 11:46, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I would be opposed to assigning specific time ranges for this. Some unprotection after a couple of days would be fine, for some I've seen 6 months later people still wanting to recreate an article delted as not a crystal ball based on the same "sources" available when initially deleted. This should be a common sense thing. --pgk 12:16, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

• I found this: User:Kotepho/reports/deleted page by cl timestamp. Sounds useful. >Radiant< 12:02, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

That's an interesting page but not very useful since it must be manually updated. Is it possible to create an automatic page along these lines?--Alabamaboy 12:58, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Well cl_timestamp is actually a field on the categorylinks database table, so I would suggest that this is actually being extracted rather than manually produced. That timestamp has its problems since IIRC it gets updated each time the page gets changed rather than when the category was added, however for this purpose that shouldn't be an issue... --pgk 13:15, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

It's defenently possible, it requires accesss to the database though, and unfortunately the toolserver still doesn't have a working copy of the enwiki database. Guess the best bet is to download a dump of the categorylinks database (the most recent ones is only 6 days old as of now) and run some querries offline. --Sherool (talk) 13:31, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Is it not possible, in addition to whatever pruning we might do, to get the developers to come up with a way of not picking them up on random? Guy 17:50, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I asked about whether special:random would find them a month ago. However, now that I think about it, if the developers applied a way to make exceptions to finding these from special:random, there would be a clamor about "excusing this article," "excusing that article," and excusing all articles with deletion, wikify, and NPOV tags, too. In my opinion, when sysops deal with this category, the goal should be to keep it tidy and miniscule, not to dump things in it and hope they're gone. They should just use their common sense about what needs to be protected against recreation indefinitely, what can be removed from this category after a week, and everything in between. If effective pruning is carried out, then there will be very little need to excuse these protected deleted pages, if only due to the tiny amount of them in total. Picaroon9288 19:40, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Huh?

What the hell? Protoss Archon 15:45, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Same as #G.I. Joe character list DELETED without cause. It was a valid list. A null edit did the trick. Conscious 15:52, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/St Christopher

This case is now closed and the results have been published at the link above. ParalelUni's community ban is endorsed. Any of the single-purpose accounts mentioned identified in the case, or any other accounts or IPs an administrator deems to be an account used solely for the editing of St Christopher Iba Mar Diop College of Medicine or related pages, may be banned from that article or related pages for disruptive edits.

For the Arbitration Committee. FloNight 17:31, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Lollywood Block review

I have blocked Lollywood (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) indefinitely as he has continued to insert copyrighted text into various articles despite warnings. This includes Undivided India , Durand line , Pashtunistan , Pakhtunkhwa etc.

I should note that the same user has in the past edited from the ip block 82.159.*.* as evidenced by exactly same copypasting in these articles (, etc.) and was warned/blocked several times in the last 2 months. --Ragib 18:08, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Added: Further evidence of vandalism/disruptions include , , , and so on. --Ragib 18:11, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I support Ragib's actions.Bakaman _Bakatalk 19:16, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Kehrli

This case is now closed and the results have been published at the link above. Kehrli is banned for one year from articles which relate to m/z. Kehrli is prohibited for two years from changing the notation m/z, wherever found, to any other notation. Should Kehrli violate any ban placed on him by this decision or engage in substitution of notation, he may be blocked for an appropriate time. All blocks are to be logged at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Kehrli#Log of blocks and bans.

For the Arbitration Committee. FloNight 18:21, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Remove loong talk diatribes per SOAP?

Is it ok to revert long diatribes on talk pages per WP:SOAP? Andrew Cuomo has been protected due to large additions of POV text, and now its moved to the talk page, with no real attempt to construct proper content for inclusion. Can the most recent cut/paste be removed? . --ZimZalaBim (talk) 19:13, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

If it's not copyvio I would say the best idea is to archive it. —Nate Scheffey 19:18, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Didn't think of the copyvio issue. As it stands, the diff above is a large cut/paste from the newspaper article (but it cited as such). --ZimZalaBim (talk) 19:31, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Some input to List of African-American writers

I'm going to assume good faith and not revert, but this edit (actually a series of small edits) added lots of red links to the List of African-American writers page. Can anybody determine if these people are notable writers? User:Zoe|(talk) 19:54, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

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