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Possible sockpuppet of Cute 1 4 u

Hello I believe that this user New York from Flavor of Love may be this indefinatly blocked user Cute 1 4 u. Check this dif and talk page Leroyencyclopediabrown for the possible proof. If I'm wrong on this I appolize in advance but Cute 1 4 u does have a history of sock puppet and ban evasion. Æon _EA! 02:14, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

In addition I once I commented on that user being suspicious the comments that were made by New York from Flavor of Love were removed. Æon _EA! 02:20, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not an admin, but this looks somewhat similar (Cute 1 4 u did once create an account impersonating Raven Symone). I'd file a RFCU. --Coredesat talk. o_O 02:33, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I thought about it, thanks I will should I post the findings here or will not not be needed? Æon _EA! 02:34, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Any findings in the RFCU should probably be posted here unless it comes back positive and she's indef-blocked right then and there. But it looks somewhat definitive, looking at the user's edit history. --Coredesat talk. o_O 02:39, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Coredesat. I caught one of hers last week and the writing style is VERY similar to here other socks. I will post the finding once they come in. Æon _EA! 02:43, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

The account *could* be blocked per WP:USERNAME I think... "New York" was in fact the nickname given to a real contestant on the first season of Flavor of Love (generally only the nicknames were used on the show) and thus this name more-or-less falls afoul of the "Names of well-known living people" clause. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 04:57, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

After looking at the userpage and what BoG said, I decided to issue the username block. User:Zscout370 04:59, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Is it just me, or does anyone else find it absurd how much people-power is being thrown at stopping an alleged 11 year old female sockpuppeteer from "abusing" Misplaced Pages as a social network? --  Netsnipe  ►  04:56, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I take it from your use of quotation marks that you disagree with the characterization of social networking as an abuse of Misplaced Pages? Choess 06:05, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, based on this diff and the message the most current IP placed on Leroy's talk page, it's definitely her. She thinks she can hide stuff by deleting it. Ryūlóng 06:07, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi, just call me Ed.=) I apologize to everyone who has been trying to contact me overnight. I (obviously) was sleeping. Anyway, I think that Cute 1 4 u should be given one more chance. Two reasons for this. First of all, she doesn't have to keep making new accounts just to prove her point. Second, it removes the hassle of blocking EVERY SINGLE account she makes. We all know she's going to make more and more accounts.--Ed 12:58, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I disagree, she was blocked for Sockpuppet abuse, impersation, Vandalism and the 11 year old part was just added ammo to the case. And the Check user came up possitive. Æon _EA! 18:35, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

New York from Flavor of Love and 75.34.176.105 have both been blocked indef as sockpuppets, although I thought that IPs shouldn't be blocked indefinitely. Was there an exception made? --Mr. Lefty _{Talk to me!} 18:38, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

You know that she's going to make a new account anyway! What's the point for all of this hassle? This is a complete waste of our time! If we just give her a second chance on Misplaced Pages, less time for us working on her case, and one more volunteer Wikipedian.--Ed 02:41, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Cute 1 4 u welcomed Starcare, who is likely a puppet of Publicola, who is likely a puppet of Pepsidrinka. Hard punt. Lots of socks involved here.--Scribner 03:15, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

You see? The situation's getting worse. The only solution is to back off or get more admin power.--Ed 03:27, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Scribner obviously has something against Pepsidrinka, so I'm taking his comments with more than a pinch of salt. – Chacor 03:30, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, that's way too much of a stretch. Ed, sorry, but Cute 1 4 u has just done too much. Yeah, she'll keep coming back, and she'll continue to contact you, and we'll continue to deal with her. If she realizes that she's not helping, then we'll stop blocking, but as long as she continues to contact you and admit that she's who she is, then we have to block her. Ryūlóng 04:21, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Ryulong, I'm not the only one she might want to contact. Do you even realize that she could be lurking around Misplaced Pages right this moment? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ed (talk • contribs)

75.34.12.156 is another one. Posted on my talk page Æon _EA! 07:11, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't know about this IP you found, but I think we should wait until she does something else before we take action against this IP.--Ed 22:45, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

It was blocked it was her (The post admited it) Æon _EA! 00:16, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

How long is the block? --Ed 00:41, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Another Possible one Prple space mnky@hotmail.com edited with the summary Got to keep it real on edit summary (Dif ) a phrase that she used many many times as her qoute. Caught this one while monitoring recent changes Æon _EA! 00:57, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

This is Cute 1 4 u. If I had any socks, I'd admit them. I already told you all of them. But Ed is right, I'm trying to prove my point. --75.33.230.133 02:11, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not Prple space mnky@hotmail.com , User:Starcare, or User:Publicola. I swear, I don't even know them. However, to prove my point, all i can say is that i have a new account and I am much nicer on that account. Ed is right. --75.33.230.133 02:17, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I may have found another sock and I requested a check user (Came up again on Recent changes, edits article that were created by other socks with teh same grammer an such) Æon _EA! 02:38, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

More or less confrimed the sockpuppet. Autoblock got it (See TV Lover) Æon _EA! 04:16, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay, Cute 1 4 u (or whatever) is going to get me a headache. I tried asking her why she's doing this on her talk page, but she said she's "going to commit 'suiside' ," or something. I don't know... I know this may sound stupid, but can't we block her IP address, so she stops creating these annoying sockpuppets? Cheers! The RSJ - 03:30, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

She's on a dynamic IP, SBC, I believe (according to the WHOIS reports). There's not much we can do but keep blocking her new accounts. She's not committing suiside any time soon. Ryūlóng 05:32, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Can you please clarify your statement? "Committing suicide"? Is it literal or figurative? --physicq210 05:38, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Prob Figurative she is 11 years old and has a history of being overly dramatic. Æon _EA! 05:41, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

She'll be back tomorrow, probably recreating that article of hers. Ryūlóng 05:47, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Do we have any way to protect the page from being created, say, creating a blank article then fully protecting it? Shadow1 17:35, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

What is the article she keeps creating? Æon _EA! 20:09, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

This situation is getting nowhere. In fact, it's getting worse. She will keep making new accounts, and you know that. We must find a permanent solution to this.--Ed 00:23, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

The soulition is simple keep blocking her. We can't block her IP with out cuasing other issues. Æon _EA! 08:57, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Has anyone contacted SBC about this user? Letting them know that the misbehavior of one 11-year-old kid might lead to Misplaced Pages blocking their entire DHCP range could be an incentive for them to listen. -- llywrch 19:16, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I must tell you something. I live in the same area as Cute 1 4 u (not the same suburban area, we don't live close together or anything, we both in Metropolitan Chicago, which is in the United States). Anyway, SBC changed to AT&T in Chicago. AT&T bought SBC, so I have no idea what you guys are talking about.--Ed 22:30, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Let me get my facts straight. Take a look at SBC Communications, which says that SBC was the one who bought AT&T. They then changed their name. --Ed 22:32, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm am not misbehaving. I had stress but it has gone away. Not creating any more accounts. If I have to come back when I'm 13, I guess i'll create another account then. Say what you want. Don't contact me llywrch, I don't know you. --75.34.176.207 03:21, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

With that begin said I may have found yet one more sockpuppet of Her. I have requested another check user. Æon _EA! 19:48, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Another day, another sockpuppet, eh? What's the newest sockpuppet called now? Cheers! The RSJ - _{The RSJ at the RS Wiki} 20:12, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

But Crystal (that's her real name, so everyone would know) already said she's not creating any socks.--Ed 23:36, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

And I don't beleive her. Check my talk page for the latest. Æon _EA! 03:52, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Ed, I'm not. That other sock was before i made my earlier statement. --75.33.249.5 05:33, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

on Aeon's page I met to say I wouldn't make anoter sock p. --75.34.185.51 18:39, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I checked Cute 1 4 u's block log, and I am very surprised that we banned a user for being a certain age. Either I'm misreading the block reason, or we have just banned an account because she was 11 yrs. old. I don't think this is right. If Cute 1 4 u was blocked because of many other reasons such as vandalism, then that should appear on the block log.

In addition, I'm beginning to question her block reasons. The sockpuppettering is already proven. (with all of the accounts that came up here on ANI. But vandalism??? Where's the vandalism here??? I think we should recover the supposed vandalism in question.--Ed 13:05, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone think this is enough to get her unblocked? If you think about it, the sockpuppeteering started just because she was blocked for being a certain age, the link to her block log is above. And there really wasn't any proof she was going to vandalise Misplaced Pages— Preceding unsigned comment added by Ed (talk • contribs)

Well, the admission to being part of S-man's "vandalism project" on top of all of the other things that she did (sockpuppetry, MySpace treatment, personal attacks, civility, etc.) all led to her block. If she just sits it out and/or stops making evident that she is who she is, then we won't have to bother her about it. But the fact that its now starting to bother you and other users is beyond anything. Ryūlóng 21:45, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

vandalism of Utonagan page

There have been repeated occurences of vandalism on the Utonagan page within Misplaced Pages. These have implied that Utonagan have wolf content or are related to other wolf-look-a-likes who have wolf content. They have also mentioned behavioral problems which do not exist in the breed, and have even gone to the extent as to imply that they originated from alaskan dogs with wolf content.

As the foremost breeder of Utonagan in the country, these have become more than irritating.

The TCP/IP address of the user known to make these changes is: 212.36.181.65

With thanks

Nadia Carlyle

www.twatha-utonagan.com

great waste of time (Afd nominations not based on WP)

Spooky walk, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Spooky walk - EXCERPT Fails WP:NOT an indiscriminate collection of information. It is realted to the various other AfD and CfD nominations for trivial items by the same author/major contribitor. It isn't even important whether this thing exists, or whether you can find it in google. It's as notable as a leather belt, which is fortunatley absent. Fiddle Faddle 22:55, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

User initiated similar deletion nominations. I consider it a waste of time. This argumentation style is not far from trolling and disrupting. Someone tell this user to stop it. User:Yy-bo 17:18, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

You might think its a waste of time. However, some of the AfDs the person you are worried about initiates get a mixed reaction. You are probably best served by just participating in the AfDs and improving the articles. The Land 22:43, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Just wondering if everyone can use this argumentation style. It is not really important if the thing exists, it is important if i like it, and it is similar to a yellow sofa. Where is the button to speedy delete a user? REDO FROM START, TRY AGAIN. User:Yy-bo 12:06, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

• I am always content if a nomination for deletion fails or if it succeeds because the community reaches a consensus in either case. However, I am confused and perplexed by Yy-bo's creation of articles by the bucketload, many of which are, to my eyes, not useful or notable topics, and really think the comment in the edit history on creation of yet another, here may show a misunderstanding of the ethos of Misplaced Pages. I think it is time for an experienced admin to make a judgement over this. Please also see my request for advice over this on my talk page and the response. - Fiddle Faddle 19:04, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

The volume of your elaboration is too much. Suggest you maintain articles and leave my work as it is. A request for comment is not required, if you do not want it. Save the community time, i do not talk about you except the offical procedures. ] 19:16, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Comment: Yy-bo's user page points to the user page of Nikemoto2511 on Wikisource, which links to a "closed" account Akidd dublin here on Misplaced Pages. Both Yy-bo & Akidd dublin demonstrate a similarly poor command of English, & appear to edit the same kind of articles (e.g., Baking oven, which has been since moved to Oven, & Red hair). Akidd dublin was a participant in a Mediation Cabal case. In short, this user has been around Misplaced Pages to be expected to know how it works -- yet still demonstrates he still doesn't know, perhaps due to the language barrier. -- llywrch 20:17, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Note: User Yy-bo saw fit to remove the above, claiming it was a "flame". I don't see what is enflamatory about the comment -- unless he resents my judgement that he has trouble with the English language. I am a disinterested observer (at the moment), & was merely offering a context for this user's actions. I suggest that if he disagrees with what someone writes that he defend or explain himself in a response. If another Admin agrees with Yy-bo's interpretation, I'll concede to that person's removal; but it is clear that this user either doesn't understand how to behave on Misplaced Pages, or he is being disruptive. -- llywrch 21:39, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Yy-bo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been harassing Fiddle Faddle about his clearly reasonable nominations of articles to AfD and related comments, which has caused this good-faith editor some consternation. Yy-bo's behavior is inappropriate. —Centrx→talk • 20:43, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Having run into Yy-bo before via AfD rationales and his talk page, I feel that he is a well-intentioned editor but occasionally a misunderstanding (by him or another) due to poor receptive and/or expressive English skills becomes a tour de force of policy quoting and chest-thumping from one or the other side, or both. I don't intend to turn this discussion into an RfC on Yy-bo or anything, but I have seen him contribute some good edits/material and also get tenacious with what he thinks is an abrogation of policy (even if that's not the case). ju66l3r 21:18, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I have no argument with that assessment. He has huge energy and creativity. I just wish he would channel it into the excellence he is capable of. However I feel threatened by his attitude, and really would like someone to guide his hand. Fiddle Faddle 21:24, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

User Timtrent, masking it with Fiddle Faddle, this is annoying on its own. This user gets pretty much personal and is better off to stop it right now. The oven article is only edited technically. The information is not intend to be personal. Reference: WP:NPOV, no personal attacks. User:Yy-bo 19:01, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

NPOV is an acronym for "Neutral Point of View". I think you mean WP:NPA -- "No personal attacks". However, that guideline refers to name calling & insults; I see none of those in what either Ju6613r or Fiddle Faddle/Timtrent has written. -- llywrch 21:39, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I would not dream of calling people here names or insulting them. Where the typed word has caused any misunderstanding I am always careful to apologise for any offence given unwittingly. Apart from anything else, lack of civility is counter productive and always causes resentment. We're striving for a better "product" here, not a set of disputes. 20:21, 16 September 2006 (UTC) This comment was written by Fiddle Faddle, who apparently miscounted how many tildes he typed at the end of his comment

I blame biscuit crumbs under the ~ key. I guess I got more or fewer than 4! Tks muchly. Fiddle Faddle 08:30, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

This report is only about an unarguable Afd argumentation

The quotations about language usage do not belong into this report. I list the EXCERPT again:

Fails WP:NOT an indiscriminate collection of information. It is realted to the various other AfD and CfD nominations for trivial items by the same author/major contribitor. It isn't even important whether this thing exists, or whether you can find it in google. It's as notable as a leather belt, which is fortunatley absent. Fiddle Faddle 22:55, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

By the way this Afd was about an independent Article Spooky walk, which user Yy-bo is not the author of. User:Yy-bo 19:02, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

More of User Timtrent: The concept of a "Haunted Yard" is simply not a topic, disambiguation page or not, that belongs in any encyclopaedia I have ever come across. Yes, search for it in Google and there are hits, of course there are, but you also get hits for "Yellow Sofa", which we do not have an article on. In other words, Ghits notwithstanding, it is really trivial and deserves to go (Haunted yard). He used it for Halloween yard, in mistake, maybe a hurry. I stroked out his completely wrong argumentation, to save it from being embarassing. User:Yy-bo 19:07, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Repeating yourself won't do anything, nor will making another account. Your assertions have been refuted and your claims deemed meritless. Fiddle Faddle nominated the article for valid reasons. – Someguy0830 (Talk | contribs) 01:22, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Remedies

I have indefinitely blocked the sockpuppet, User:YBO. —Centrx→talk • 04:39, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I have warned the user about his behavior, see . Hopefully, this behavior will end, but if it continues, it will likely warrant blocking of various sorts. —Centrx→talk • 04:53, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Creek people

Creek people has a repeat repeat vandalism offender. I hope posting here is the solution. The offender is an unregistered IP vandal 164.58.208.245 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) who has changed the pages 16 times in the past 30 minutes.

Comedy of errors

I was enjoying not editing Misplaced Pages, but have been lurking now and then and making a few comments here and there. Today, I noticed, out of the blue, that I had been placed on probation by the Arbitration Committee. Needless to say, it came as quite a surprise. After all, nobody ever told me that the ArbCom was even considering doing as much. I've been involved in ArbCom cases before, but only as a witness. Never as a defendant. I was placed on probation for "tendentious editing," with 5 members voting yes, 1 voting no, and 1 abstaining. The reason? Well, since I've been "banned twice" for 3RR (well, actually only once, since the other two times were later admitted to have been hasty, if not in error), it must follow that I'm a very tendentious editor who needs to be on probation. What is strange, however, is that there was no discussion of this on the case's workshop page. Where did this come from, then? It was placed on the proposed decision page on 28 August 2006, over a month after opening the case (and long after I had paid any attention to it); I received no notification.. Any discussion of the matter is curiously absent from the evidence page, and, of course, I had no input in the matter, since I was never told about it.

This only underscores the reasons why I have stopped contributing to Misplaced Pages. The head does not know what the hands are doing, and the hands don't even know they have fingers. Now I have the distinct pleasure of being placed upon probation without any apparent reason or any apparent warning. I'm extremely disappointed in the administration process, and especially at the ArbCom members who who, it seems, voted yes without adequate consideration of due process. Their only reason for placing me on probation seems to be that it seemed like I had been blocked for 3RR a number of times.

So, now I'm on probation, without evidence, and without ever having been notified that I was even being considered to be put on probation, thereby preventing me from defending myself. Preposterous. --AaronS 16:06, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

• It was in plain sight for weeks, having been added in late August by Dmcdevit . If you don't edit in a tendentious fashion, as you claim, then you should have nothing to worry about. You were still editing heavily when the matter was proposed, but to judge from your contributions you were busy elsewhere. You had weeks to defend yourself, but you chose to stomp off in rage instead. Now you come back to find that the wheels do indeed continue to turn in your absence. I'm afraid I can't fathom how it is you've been wronged in this matter. Mackensen (talk) 16:19, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Do you really expect me to keep an eye on an ArbCom case that I'm not even involved in? I offered my initial statements as a witness in July, and then let those people who were actually involved sort it out. I had no opportunity to defend myself, because I was completely in the dark. Furthermore, I did not stomp off in a rage at all when I left Misplaced Pages. I was disappointed, yes, but not angry. Just like now. I also find it disappointing that anybody who is critical of Misplaced Pages in general gets caricatured as an angry, angsty, whining idiot. I'm just presenting my thoughts, and I would appreciate it if you treated them with the same consideration with which I treat yours. Your hostility seems unwarranted. --AaronS 16:24, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
    • I'm just telling you how I see the matter; I see no need for you to bring in all those negative epithets. For my part, I've always kept an eye on Arbitration cases in which I had either given evidence or been named a party. As a frequent editor of a page involved in an arbitration case you were obviously a party to the matter. My characterization of your leaving is based on my reading of your supposedly final post on this noticeboard, after which you promptly disappeared for a length of time. If you've been characterized as an "angry, angsty, whining idiot" it's only by your hand; I've made no such remarks and I see nothing in my rather terse reply above that would suggest such a characterization. You were in the dark by choice. Mackensen (talk) 16:32, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
      • Forgive me for interpreting your statements as smug and dismissive; clearly I was in error. I was also unaware that people become party to an ArbCom case simply by association. I was never named as a party to the case. I gave evidence, monitored it for a while, and then stopped monitoring it after a few weeks. My final post to this page contained no "rage," just disappointment, as I have already noted. Characertizing someone as "stomping off in a rage" has plenty of negative and condescending connotations. You are correct that there was no need for me to bring them to the forefront; they were already there. --AaronS 16:38, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
        • This same thing happened to me, after over 1 month of my arbcom case having no attention its being proposed I be put on probabtion even though the other people involved, including the accuser do not edit Misplaced Pages anymore. Luckily someone drew my attention to it since after almost 2 weeks of no admin or arbcom member even noticing it I took it off my watch list. As it stands it would have flown right by me that anyone even proposed anything, actually ti did since they moved on to the enxt stage without even informing me. I guess its just the load of the ammont of work they have, but it seems it prevents people from actually being to defend themselves as at any moment things can spur along rather quickly, meaning proposed items to final items in 3 days after 1 month of no activity. --User:Zer0faults 16:48, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
          • The case, which is, oddly enough, named Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Zer0faults, is about your behavior. We are not expected to inform you when something is proposed in your own case, besides which, it hasn't even been closed yet, and you do already know about it. Dmcdevit·t 00:08, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
        • Something obviously has to be done about the situation as I filed an Arbcom against another user and it came back one month after the person quit Misplaced Pages that they were being given a 24 hour block ... Perhaps Arbcom needs to grow as the wiki grows. --User:Zer0faults 16:52, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

The probation should stand; however this was an oversight on behalf of the Committee and the Clerks. We should have added AaronS formally as a party to the case and notified him shortly after probation was proposed. --Tony Sidaway 16:44, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

In a case like this (where apparently notice was not given to one of the added parties), I would hope that ArbCom would be willing to reopen the relevant portion of the case should AaronS wish to present some evidence in his own defense. Dragons flight 16:59, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I absolutely agree with Dragons flight. olivier 17:03, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

As do I, but... tisk, tisk, we forgot that arbcom is above us mere mortals, so it doesn't matter worth a damn what we say here. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 17:18, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

So, thanks for that useful comment. Would you like to take a free kick at someone else, too, or are you finished for the day? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 17:55, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I was gonna spit on some homeless orphans, but that might be too magnanimous of me. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 18:53, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

If the ArbCom admits that it has made a mistake in the application of its procedure, then it is in the interest of its credibility to step back and apply the procedure properly. olivier 17:36, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I would assume that, as in most cases where probation is imposed, the involved party may make a request to have the probation lifted. In this case, a request of the following form is probably appropriate.

I would like to apply to have my editing probation lifted. I did not know that probation was being considered as a remedy to be applied to me, and was not notified that ArbCom was treating me as an involved party to the case. I believe that probation would not have been applied in my case had I had an opportunity to explain my actions. Specifically, probation is inappropriate in this case because of the following errors of fact or interpretation by the ArbCom: ____, ____, and _____.

Note that if there isn't an error in the ArbCom's findings of fact, or there isn't a good explanation for the behaviour observed, the probation is unlikely to be lifted. (He did receive 3 3RR blocks over a span of six weeks, imposed by three different admins.) This can be handled as a single motion amending the closed case. I also note that probation, in and of itself, doesn't restrict an editor in any way—as long as that editor abides by our policies and employs good editing practices. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 17:55, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I have a general familiarity with ArbCom procedures but no involvement in this particular case, no acquaintanceship with (?ex-)User:AaronS, and no familiarity with the subject article, Anarchism. It appears to me that AaronS has a legitimate complaint here. According to his user contributions, he posted comments on WP:RfAr at the case acceptance stage, on July 24. The case was then opened on July 26 and ArbClerk Tony Sidaway duly notified him on his talk page that: "An arbitration case in which you commented has been opened. Please add evidence to the evidence page. You may also contribute to the case on the Workshop page." (Italics mine, obviously.) There is no suggestion that the user must submit anything or follow the case for a decision.

The form of this notice was different from the one given to users who were considered parties to the case, for example, User:Intangible. The notice from Tony to those users read, "An arbitration case involving you has been opened...." There was no indication that AaronS was a party to the case or was potentially subject to sanctions.

Once the ArbCom accepted the case, an ArbClerk sets up the case with its Case, Evidence, Workshop, and Proposed Decision pages. At the top of the Case page, the template reads, "Please do not edit this page directly unless you wish to become a party in this request." However, the Case page was opened on July 26, and AaronS last commented on July 24, on the main RfAr page, which does not have such a notation and frequently incorporates comments from "uninvolved users" (I myself have commented there on occasion, and do not consider that doing so made me a party to the case I commented on, although I did follow the cases thereafter). The Case page lists the involved parties as Cberlet and Intangible; there is no mention of AaronS as a party and, although it might have made good sense for him to be following the case, he was under no notice that he had to do so and it appears that his surprise at having been notified, more than two months later, that he had been placed on Probation, is genuine and understandable.

As Tony Sidaway indicates, what occurred here is an inadvertent error on the part of busy ArbCom members and ArbClerks in not notifying AaronS when an arbitrator decided sua sponte to propose a remedy against him. No aspersions of any kind should be cast and good faith on the part of the Arbs and ArbClerk is not only assumed, but it is clear that the fullest good faith was actually present throughout.

However, given the error that took place, the appropriate procedure is for an interested party to make a request on WP:RfAr that this case be reopened to give AaronS an opportunity to present evidence if he wishes to do so. In the first instance, an Arbitrator can present such a request, or Aaron can do so himself (it goes under Requests rather than Motions if a non-Arb does it). If AaronS wants, I will place the motion on the page for him, although I am not expressing any opinion on whether he ultimately should be on probation or not (nor do I know if he cares given that he says he's on quasi-perma-Wiki-break anyhow).

Looking forward, I suggest that it become a practice that if a user is named on Workshop or Proposed Decision as being subject to a remedy, he or she be notified on talk. It sounds from what Tony has written above that this is what is intended anyway.

This sincerely is not aimed as a criticism of the Arbitrators or the ArbClerk for an inadvertent mistake. (I think ArbCom does a good job; if I were to criticize them at all, it would be for the undue delays that permeate some of the proceedings; understandable to be sure, as we are all busy people here and the Arbs more than most, but ... well, that is a conversation for another time.) Nor is it meant as Wikilawyering; ArbCom is not litigation, and picky procedural points should often be disregarded; and in any event, if I ever have to Wikilawyer, it won't be for someone I never heard of before :) . But this situation goes to the fundamental fairness of the proceeding, and I think it is in the interest of ArbCom as well as the affected user to acknowledge that, an inadvertent mistake having been made, it should be corrected. AaronS may wind up back on Probation anyway, but he's entitled to have his say if he chooses. Newyorkbrad 18:42, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks to everybody for your comments. I appreciate the efforts of people to take a closer look at this matter and to try to examine it as objectively as possible. To be honest, if the case were to be reopened or reevaluated, I'm not sure how I would respond, because no evidence was presented to which I could respond. My involvement was apparently not discussed on any of the pages. In fact, the only discussion concerning me that I can find is on the discussion page of the main case page. Lingeron, sock puppet of indefinitely banned user Thewolfstar, posted a long diatribe against me, it seems. I wasn't even aware of it, or, if I was, I don't remember it now. Thus far, the argument seems to have been that, since I have a block log with some 3RR violations, I must have deserved it. Such an argument, of course, is highly fallacious and unfair.

I only care about this ArbCom decision because it is a slap in the face. I don't think that it received the attention that it deserved, and feel that it was marred by procedural missteps. As I said in the beginning, if it were to be reexamined, I'm not sure what I would say. The most surprising thing is that, as of yet, no evidence has been presented against me. Again, thanks to everybody for your input. --AaronS 20:03, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Weren't there eleven active members for this decision? The committee page version on 26 July lists fourteen total and eleven active, and the proposed decision page states only three were inactive. The arbitration closed with five support votes and one abstention. Wasn't this remedy lacking a vote for majority support?EricR 21:26, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I didn't even notice that. Good point. --AaronS 21:54, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

A user facing AC sanctions must be informed that they are party to an RfAr, so that they would be allowed the opportunity to respond. El_C 21:37, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Interesting point as to whether 5-1-1 is a majority here, but I've probably been overly analytic today on multiple threads so I'll let that one go. The substantive question is whether the user had a fair opportunity to be heard before he was found to have edit-warred and a sanction was imposed. Granting that there may be little value to reopening a case if the result is predetermined, the sub-question is whether there's any reasonable possibility that the result might have been different if the user had been asked to submit his evidence. Given that one arbitrator (Fred Bauder) voted against the finding because he found insufficient evidence against AaronS, and another arbitrator abstained because he did not think this user's conduct was serious enough to warrant probation, it's hard to avoid the conclusion that a full opportunity for AaronS to be heard could have changed the result. Newyorkbrad 23:28, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

As a regular editor on the anarchism page, I can say that there is a good chance the probation would not have gone through had aaron (and others such as myself) been able to comment on the matter. As Aaron says, one of his blocks was overturned after he explained the situation. The blocking admin in the second case apologized and said they wouldn't have blocked had they had more information, but the block had already expired by that time, so he was never unblocked. So basically, he has one block, and considering the crap that goes on at the anarchism articles, and how long he's been editing, that's pretty impressive. Most of the edit warring that happens there is due to users who are now indefinitely blocked, or sockpuppets of those users before they are blocked themselves for being socks. A lot of outsiders don't realize this, so users like Aaron will occassionally be blocked. It's understandable, and it usually gets resolved without a problem. I personally think probation is a bit harsh in his case. Especially considering he was never even notified. Ungovernable Force 23:41, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I think the problem here is clear. I was the one that personally added the proposal, and, since AaronS was involved, having offered evidence and had evidence offered against him, it didn't even occur to me that he would be unaware of the proposal. I just learned that he was, and that is unfortunate. As Dragons flight suggests, if he has a defense he would have liked to put forth, I, as with the rest of ArbCom, am ready, willing, and eager to hear it. Place it in the WP:RFAr#Requests_for_clarification section where we regularly hear appeals. TenOfAllTrades' advice on the appeal is sound. Also: it's a wiki, everything is reversible, I am very human (believe me, being an arbitrator has made me more aware of that fact, not less), and I'm still trying to figure out quite why the tone here is so accusatory only a matter of hours after this issue was raised. Dmcdevit·t 00:08, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your open-mindedness, Dmcdevit. I appreciate your taking the time to reconsider this. It is also encouraging that you are more than happy to embrace your human limitations, which is always a healthy and commendable acknowledgement. As I have indicated a number of times throughout this discussion, however, I am confused as to what accusations of wrongdoing I should defend myself against. So far, no evidence has been provided. The only thing I can find in that case pertaining to me, before you added anything regarding me, is a post by banned user Lingeron, which was replied to rather eloquently by WGee on the main discussion page. You noted that I had been blocked a few times as a result of WP:3RR violations, but much discussion has already been had with regard to those blocks, and their gravity is less than certain. Since nobody seems to have presented any evidence against me, and since you were the person who made me a party to the case, perhaps you have evidence that you would like to present. In that case, I encourage you to do so, so that I, along with a few other editors, I am sure, could respond to it.

There is also the issue of an apparent lack of a majority. If the required majority was 6, and there were only 5 yes votes, then this might be a non-issue. Thanks again, --AaronS 01:04, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

AaronS, you should make these points on the requests for arbitration page. The other arbitrators may not see them here. Good luck. Newyorkbrad 01:09, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Will do. Thanks. --AaronS 01:20, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

If the other arbitrators join in the fair and sensible approach of Dmcdevit, it looks like the problem is solved. Speaking for myself, at least, no accusatory tone whatsoever was intended; I stated several times that what happened was clearly an inadvertent oversight, and was concerned only because there were suggestions (not by arbitrators, and some since withdrawn) that perhaps it shouldn't be fixed. ArbCom is busy, and Dmcdevit is one of the two most active arbitrators (being one of the two arbs who actually write the decisions), and the community (well, the small subset of the community that follows ArbCom matters) understands and appreciates that. Newyorkbrad 00:19, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Agreed completely; I would like to take this opportunity to praise Newyorkbrad's advice here. There's not much more I have to say in extension of Dom's comment, however. :-)

James F. (talk) 10:04, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I would just like to point out that I complained about the lack of natural justice in my case, when the very same arbitrator responsible for this débacle thought it perfectly reasonable to go about making findings concerning my actions which had not been brought in evidence and which were irrelevant to the case actually before the ArbCom. This separate case is, to coin a phrase, "particularly egregious". David | Talk 16:43, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

request for block of User:LordByronKing

LordByronKing (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been editing in a suspicious manner, disrupting the editing process by making one change - saving - then making another, and has failed to respond to comments posted on his talk page, even though he remains extrememly active on Misplaced Pages. He has been adding books to lists, deeming them as "notable", without any reason for their notability - and they all tend to be by the same author, Steeves Volmar. He has also been making controversial changes to pornography actors - changing the stated sexuality to the whichever he thinks it "really" is. Viewing his contributions you can see that he edits repetitively, sometime for periods lasting five hours (these edits tend to be no more than 1-2 min apart). I have listed him at Wikiquette where an objecive third person has confirmed this suspicious activity. His edits are SO numerous that it becomes very difficult chasing after him trying to revert everything he's done. The wikiquette page and his talk page go into more detail. -Zappernapper 18:07, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I have given him a last warning on his Talk page. Note that an apparent sock puppet, User:Onedayoneday, has been blocked for making threats against another User. User:Zoe|(talk) 23:13, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I have now blocked him for re-inserting himself into articles. User:Zoe|(talk) 18:20, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you Zoe -Zappernapper 04:37, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Hornplease's declaration that he will violate wikipedia rules

Regarding this user, he has been edit-warring on 2006 Malegaon blasts. The content dispute is not the issue I'm complaining against here, of course. It is the fact that he has declared two things. 1. That he will continue edit-warring, not violating the letter of WP:3RR but the spirit of it, and that he will stop assuming good faith, a declaration of violating WP:AGF. The talk page diff is below:

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk%3A2006_Malegaon_blasts&diff=75792345&oldid=75749909 Hkelkar 00:05, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Huh. It looks like you missed this update:

Eh? I have not declared that I will violate the rules! I am trying hard not to. I gave you an opportunity to make your case, while leaving it in your preferred version! How is that a violation? Instead of putting an NPOV tag on it, try and work it out here. --Calton | Talk 01:13, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Hornplease also has vandalized many talk pages citing BLP even when comments were not aimed at the BLP, but their work (which usually has a criticism section) . Also, has a very obvious problem with Hindu related articles, as seen with this deletionist harrassment on this AfD .Bakaman _Bakatalk 01:16, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't see any intention to violate wikipedia rules here. BhaiSaab 01:37, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Please elaborate. He expressly stated that he will 1.Cease AGF and 2.Continue edit-warring. That's 2 declarations of policy violation.I have seen users who have been indefbanned for less.Hkelkar 23:49, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

See section below, a somewhat misguided contributor is the victim of a witch-hunt.Bakaman _Bakatalk 01:21, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that blocking someone appropriately per WP:BP was called a "witch-hunt" now -- Samir धर्म 04:04, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I guess asking for fairness didnt work. I'm perturbed by double standards, and merely was asking for fairness.Bakaman _Bakatalk

Then please say what you mean to say. Calling an administrative action against a user who is trolling a "witch-hunt" is not appropriate -- Samir धर्म 11:39, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I am quite disappointed that what I thought was a invitation for an editor with a questionable history regarding POV to lay out the reasons for his attempts at ownership of a high-profile article was misunderstood by the editor in question. I think my actions speak for themselves at this point, though I am available for any clarification if necessary. I admit that henceforth I will look with a somewhat more jaundiced eye at the contributions of the editor who - in the kindest of interpretations - misunderstood my comments enough to report them here, but as far as I know that's not a violation of policy. Also, I am not sure that making the point repeatedly on an AfD that the Gujarat Administrative Servxs is not the same as the IAS is a symptom of an 'obvious problem with Hindu related articles". Hornplease 13:43, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

User:BADMINton

Can someone review his behaviour please? He has been giving people vandalism tags in content disputes, and when I asked him about this, he became rather hostile User_talk:Blnguyen#Personal_attacks.3F, so I would like someone else to have a look in case that I am too involved to act impartially, or at least give the impression of partiality. His posts since then leave me wondering about whether he is serious about editing here. In one edit summary he refers to User:Hornplease as "Horny", for instance. Blnguyen | BLabberiNg 08:25, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Samir issued a final warning. Guy 09:22, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Despite explaining WP:3RR and WP:BLP to him, he continuosly broke 3RR by adding unreferenced and potentially libelous commentry. I've reported him to WP:AN/3RR. --Ragib 09:25, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

The ban is unjustified and User:Ragib should peruse the policy (written in English) once again. Which text was "unreferenced"? Good Bloke 13:56, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

CheckUser shows that this new user is BADMINton using a sockpuppet to evade his block. Dmcdevit·t 01:55, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Though the jibes at Hornplease were quite unwarranted, the trouble with User:Ikonoblast (formerly User:Holywarrior are not unique to Badminton. At least 6 users have been insulted, cheated, and affected negatively by Ikonoklast's actions. Soft discipline should be given to Badminton.Bakaman _Bakatalk 00:20, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, here is what this user has been doing, since emerging from his block:

• Opened a sockpuppet account Good Bloke (talk · contribs) to evade the block.

No comments on such a statement. Does this call for a ban? ♔BADMIN♛ (आओ✍) 23:42, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

• Nazi user box, claims in his user box page to be a Nazi, with a swastika image

The Swastika is sacred. The Nazis lost the war and Germans still love them. Plus, it's MY sandbox.♔BADMIN♛ (आओ✍) 23:42, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

• Also, in the same page, claims to be a Misplaced Pages lawyer in an userbox.

Hilarious! I can try anything in my sandbox. ♔BADMIN♛ (आओ✍) 23:42, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

• Added fake gfdl-self tags to an image taken from a website, and upon being notified of the copyvio, retorted that he is the original source though (even the low res image's pixel sizes match exactly).
• Copypasted huge amounts of text from a website, reverted the copyvio reversion, (claiming he material is NOT copyrighted. It appeared in the Pioneer and it is freely distributed. Several websites are using it."),
• For reverting these copyvios, attacked me in my talk page, saying "Please do not dissuade other users if you yourself cannot contribute a word to this encyclopedia. ", and even worse, accused me of "racism".

Who accused you of racism? ♔BADMIN♛ (आओ✍) 23:42, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

• Engaged in incivility towards other users.

How can I comment on a baseless comment? Back your claims. ♔BADMIN♛ (आओ✍) 23:42, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Note that, this user has been redirected to the appropriate policies countless times, so lack of knowledge of policies does not seem to be an issue here.

An RFCU has been filed, but regardless of the result of that, I think some other admin should take a look into the above behavior, and act accordingly. Thanks. --Ragib 22:31, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

If I block this account for the copyright infringement until they commit to not doing any more of it, is someone going to object? Jkelly 22:40, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I think this is something which should be done immediately. Even after a lengthy discussion and advice thread on his talk page, he just uploaded the same image under a different spelling. See this. Even worse, the user continues to claim this to be "gfdl-self" while the image is clearly taken from a website (low res, exact pixel/file sizes). --Ragib 22:50, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I've blocked, noting that the user can be unblocked when they commit to not engaging in further plagiarism or copyright infringement. Jkelly 22:57, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

They've commited to this, so I've unblocked. Any other problems should be handled through normal dispute resolution. Jkelly 23:25, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

It is worth note that User:Ragib pays more attention to what I am doing than contributing anything to the Misplaced Pages. ♔BADMIN♛ (आओ✍) 23:42, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually Ragib has done a lot of work on wiki though I dont support the treatment meted out to you.Bakaman _Bakatalk 01:22, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, I've certainly had enough of this trolling. He created a user box stating he was a Nazi , trolled merrily on his talk page and those of others: , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , on WP:RCU , on this page (see "The Swastika is sacred. The Nazis lost the war and Germans still love them" above), ignored warnings by Blnguyen, Srikeit, Ragib and myself, and uploads obvious copyright infringements with spurious reasons as to why they are not copyright infringements. He's edited tendentiously on many pages , , , , , , , been blocked for 3RR and even opened a sockpuppet: Good Bloke (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) to back his position. RCU indicates that he may be related to the Rajput vandal, BADMINton admits to opening other accounts and given the similarity of edits between User:BADMINton and the various incarnations of the vandal, I think it's a given that he is one and the same. I've blocked indefinitely and have moved the thread to the bottom here for review -- Samir धर्म 01:32, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I've only glanced at the above, but looks like a good (& obvious) call. El_C 02:42, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I too completely endorse the block. The user has been blatantly trolling and edits like and clearly show that. --Srikeit 04:46, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

• Why have I been banned? Just because I came to defend my case with another ID (Good Bloke)? Did you ever care to see that User:Good Bloke has only one contrib and that too on this page? Is it outlawed?

• Learning to make userboxes in one's sandbox is an act that calls for a ban? What if I have created a Nazi userbox in my sandbox? I think we are free to make userboxes that does not offend people. Is the Swastika a taboo, Srikeit? Ragib is not a Hindu but you sure are. Do you not know its importance?

• What exactly do you mean by "tendentious" edits? People may differ in their views and the Misplaced Pages should not punish anyone for differing in views with Srikeit.

• My previous username is not DPSingh or any of those you suspect but is User:Hardinge. And do you not think that calling a user "a rajput vandal" is the grossest of incivilities?

• Why my contributions to the Misplaced Pages are not being counted? I have started many important articles. All in vain?

• Which of my acts were uncivilised? Did any user complain to you or anyone for my being uncivil?

• Unblock me soon (am I again violating any rule by editing here?). Thanks Defending Myself 10:28, 15 September 2006 (UTC) (User:BADMINton)
• While Srikeit Bhai has shown many references about my edits like , none of them invite for a ban. Most of them were on my own talk page. I did not abuse anyone. I did not vandalise any page. I contributed a lot of useful of information. Then WHY am I being banned? Defending Myself 10:36, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
• When so many people have gathered to get me banned, it is unlikely that I would be acquitted but I would like to know that under which clause of the WP:BP would the ban be justified. Defending Myself 10:43, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, he's defended himself, I guess. I took the liberty of indefinitely blocking User:Defending Myself as well -- Samir धर्म 11:17, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

While he does seem to be aggressive, I think that many of his edits are OK and indefbanning him is a bit too harsh.Could there be an agenda at work here? In my opinion he should be warned sternly to avoid aggressively confronting users. I will be happy to discuss his actions with him.Hkelkar 23:57, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

It is decidedly NOT OK to (1) create a userbox purporting to be a Nazi, (2) to repeatedly re-enter copyright information into articles and ignore warnings, (3) to insert improperly verified text into articles despite warnings, (4) to have admittedly made at least 2 sockpuppets used for the purpose of posting here to defend his actions and (5) to have ignored warnings of FOUR administrators regarding the above. I question your agenda in supporting him -- Samir धर्म 03:47, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Badminton was corect about User:Ikonoblast formerly User:Holywarriors actions. At least the witch-hunt should not be one-sided.Bakaman _Bakatalk 01:22, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

User talk:Bigjake

User:Bigjake continues to remove the comments of others that he disagrees with from his talk page. There has been some discussion about this practice at Misplaced Pages:Talk page guidelines, but no instructions on what to do when this occurs. Please comment. Thanks, Cacophony 05:16, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

• Cacophony posted a note telling him he doesn't own an article to which he responded: "Thanks for the Note. But just know, I still don't care about what you said... get off the soap box, k? Have a nice day:) Bigjake". If this user persistently ignores policy, I'd block him for that instead of the talk page blanking. Blanking in itself is not a bad thing (althought very inconvenient for others who wish to look up discussions with that user), but doing so to hide critical comments might mean this user doesn't respond well to criticism which is not very helpful in a shared project. I'd recommend one final warning, before taking it further. - Mgm| 12:51, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

My comment was in response to his edit summary on The Playhouse (radio show) that said: "if you're going to change my page, at least do it right, douche". On his most recent blanking of criticism on his talk page, he called User:MacGyverMagic a "fool". I will provide a final warning on his page before requesting a block for personal attacks. Cacophony 18:23, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Whle he shouldnt remove the comments, why do you keep putting them back and giving him warnings, why not just leave them off and let him cool down instead of antagonizing him with more comments that you know he will remove, just so you can give more warning that you know he will remove. --User:Zer0faults 18:26, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I have not added any comments or warnings since the 3rd revert. He has now removed criticism on 7 different occasions. So just because he is persistent I should forget about it? That same line of reasoning dictates that because the George Bush article is likely to be vandalized, we should just let the vandals go at it. I don't care if I have to revert it 100,000 times, my comments will remain on that user page. Cacophony 03:55, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Phil Sandifer

I've made a couple of attempts to remove this long, boring and off-topic discussion to User talk:Phil Sandifer, but somebody keeps putting it back. This doesn't pertain to adminship and it doesn't require admin intervention. And it's HUGE and it clutters this page. Help would be welcome in ways to get this useless crap off this page and onto one more suitable. --Tony Sidaway 05:35, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Admin Phil Sandifer claims a Foundation member said it was ok to claim a dead singer was in "pursuit of a gender change in the last months of life" and add him to the Transgender and transsexual musicians category based on "A comment on a (wikipedia) talk page". Phil says "I've confirmed via e-mail that User:Grammer is Tracy, and have added the information provided to both this article and Dave Carter and Tracy Grammer after consulting with User:Amgine" at Talk:Dave Carter. Comments? WAS 4.250 08:47, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

The comment on the talk page is purportedly from Tracy Grammar her/himself, and the margins are wide —I mean I really had to scroll for a long time!— not sure if Grammar counts as a reliable source though, possibly diction does. boo! El_C 09:13, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I guess we have no reason to question why Phil and Amgine would want to cook up sich a story. It's an odd one, though. Guy 10:07, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

a::Grammer, in this case, seems the very definition of a reliable source. Phil Sandifer 16:40, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, not good. This is a textbook violation of our verifiability policy:

Suppose you are writing a Misplaced Pages entry on a famous physicist's Theory X, which has been published in peer-reviewed journals and is therefore an appropriate subject for a Misplaced Pages article. However, in the course of writing the article, you contact the physicist and he tells you: "Actually, I now believe Theory X to be completely false." Even though you have this from the author himself, you cannot include the fact that he said it in your Misplaced Pages entry.
Why not? Because it is not verifiable in a way that would satisfy the Misplaced Pages readership or other editors. The readers don't know who you are. You can't include your telephone number so that every reader in the world can call you for confirmation. And even if they could, why should they believe you?

(emphasis mine). I find it rather baffling that such a fundamental principle of the encyclopedia—and, in particular, its most obvious and most clearly expressed point—is suddenly waived because some low-profile celebrity posted something to a talk page. Kirill Lokshin 11:32, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I think I tend to agree with you Kirill. It's not that I don't believe/trust Phil and Amgine, as JzG said there's no good reason why they'd make it up. But it sets a bad example, methinks, in that the standard of verifiability is if J. Random User can go confirm the facts for themselves, and this is straying a little close to the line. In this case, to be verifiable, anyone would need to be able to verify that Grammer is who they say they are. That's if we even accept edits to WP as a reliable source.

I think there are too many question marks here, as it stands, for this material to be acceptable. Is there a public way to confirm the comments? --bainer (talk) 15:37, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Not the case that applies - the issue in the author example is the fact that the making of the statement cannot be checked - that is, that the author said it to the editor. That is not the issue here - it is easy to verify. You check the talk page - in fact, the articles cite the exact diff. Phil Sandifer 16:40, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, not quite. Anyone can verify that someone left some comments on the talk page; but how is the fact that the editor in question is who they claim to be verifiable by the general reader? It's not like Misplaced Pages is known for reliably confirming people's identities. Kirill Lokshin 16:52, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

And yet we're willing to maintain Category:Notable Wikipedians. So clearly we are willing to confirm identities of our contributors in some cases. Again, as is almost always the case with issues of reliability and verifiability, a sledgehammer is not an adequate method of working this out. It requires actual thought about it. Phil Sandifer 17:54, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

That's a fair point, but the usual way to confirm that an account belongs to someone is for them to confirm externally that the account is theirs. A note on their webpage, or an email from an address known to be theirs, for example. Private email is not really good enough to do that. Tracy has a website, a comment posted there confirming the account is hers would be good enough for me. --bainer (talk) 03:47, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Kirill is entirely correct, and this is especially the case when we are not hearing of something from someone themselves, but an acquaintance. If there are no independant sources for this, it can't be included. There is a general agreement that WP:BLP should extend to the reciently dead, also, for similar reasons as BLP but relating to the estate rather than the person. LinaMishima 15:45, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I've been the main proponent of not including this until another source can be found (which won't be easy). I do not, however, question the reliability of Tracy Grammer as a source on Dave Carter. It is well known that she was indeed his "partner in all things," professional and personal. The issue should be verifiability. The information on Carter's planned gender change is unheard of elsewhere, and we can't expect every reader to verify User:Grammer's idenity. Items for articles must be selected based on verifiability not truth. -MrFizyx 16:19, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree wholeheartedly that BLP applies - which is why I checked with the guidelines on BLP for adding material from the source themself (Which this basically is), and followed it to the letter. Note that they explicitly say that the material can come from the talk page. Phil Sandifer 16:40, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not convinced that "basically" is sufficient in cases like this. The statement in question was certainly not self-published in the conventional sense (meaning that the subject of the article did not actually release the information personally); and there have been any number of cases where information provided by close friends or family members has turned out to be incomplete or unreliable. At the very least, the information needs to be given as "According to Grammer, blah blah blah" in order to make clear that this is, indeed, a third party's perspective. Kirill Lokshin 16:52, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Tracy Grammer was providing information on her relationship with Dave Carter - that is "the source itself" for all useful purposes. Again, you're trying to apply a horrendously general case, developed largely to deal with some of our most pathologically troublesome articles, to a specific case that instead requires actually thinking about the situation. Phil Sandifer 17:54, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

"Nobody's edit-warred/threatened to sue/gone to the press yet, so it must be okay" seems a pretty strange approach to be taking here. Perhaps it might be better to follow the ArbCom's lead on this:

Contentious facts which cannot be verified as having been published in a reputable source cannot be included in a Misplaced Pages article Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, see especially Misplaced Pages:Verifiability#Dubious_sources. Information should have been published in a reliable source Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources. In the case of unusual or scandalous assertions this becomes even more important, see Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources#Exceptional_claims_require_exceptional_evidence.

The point being added here is hardly run-of-the-mill; we should be extra careful in ensuring that the information is coming from a reputable source. Kirill Lokshin 18:13, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

First of all, the arbcom has also looked dimly on challenging things for the sake of challenging them. Second of all, we have been extra careful. We verified User:Grammer's identity, and drew from the single most reliable source in the world on Dave Carter's life and musical career. There are two possible concerns here. The first is whether Tracy Grammer is a reliable source. She is very clearly the best possible source we could have on this, however. The second is whether User:Grammer is Tracy Grammer. Verification of this is well within the purview of what administrators do, and it is highly problematic to say that this cannot be done by administrators. Phil Sandifer 18:31, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

You know, I'd take this whole complaint more seriously if it had even tried to assume good faith. "Claims a Foundation member" all but assumes I'm lying. I'm absolutely floored that anyone would think that it's appropriate to run this to AN/I and say I "claim" to have talked to Amgine, and yet nobody has done something responsible like, oh, leave a note on Amgine's talk page asking her to explain why she gave the all-clear on this. Phil Sandifer 17:58, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think calling it a "claim" assumed it to be false. In any case I left a note for User:Amgine. I really thought you would have done that by now. One really shoud assume good faith, blind faith is another matter... -MrFizyx 18:46, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I thought Foundation members had better things to do than verify that admins weren't lying when they said they talked to them. Your mileage may vary. Personally, I tend not to imply that I don't believe that someone checked with someone else. Phil Sandifer 18:49, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think WP:V is negotiable. This essentially sounds like hearsay to me, and wouldn't stand up in any court of law (or an encyclopedia entry, for that matter). Please, please, find a verifiable, published source ... if not, I don't think it can go in. --Cyde Weys 17:42, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

"I was his romantic partner until he moved out and pursued a gender change" is not hearsay. Please try to actually be helpful here. Phil Sandifer 17:54, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Do you know what hearsay is? Of course this is hearsay, because nobody has provided a credible source other than, "Well, I heard someone say ..." --Cyde Weys 19:48, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

It's not published in a reliable source. So it cannot be used in Misplaced Pages. --Pjacobi 18:06, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

If WP:RS were actually applied rigidly, we would have to destroy half of our featured articles. Please actually think about the situation instead of just citing rules. Phil Sandifer 18:10, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Cyde and others, Misplaced Pages should not be the venue of first publication for any fact. We are an encyclopedia, not a news source. Even if we accept the source as 100% reliable, I still don't believe that we should include such information because it undermines the principle that readers should be able to verify everything we say with external sources. Dragons flight 18:06, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Talk pages should not be considered part of the encyclopedia for this purpose - and in fact WP:BLP explicitly provides for that. (Look at the section on subjects contributing to their own biographies, which says explicitly that subjects can contribute information to the talk page.) Phil Sandifer 18:10, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Their own biographies, yes; but Tracy =/= Dave, I would think! Kirill Lokshin 18:15, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

This is a rule that cannot possibly be used as a universal case. Phil Sandifer 18:36, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

With respect, I feel you are misreading BLP. My reading is that subjects may contribute to the article discussion, but any information added to the article still needs to be externally verifiable. Dragons flight 18:17, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Cyde, DF and others. Let someone else care about this enough to write a story on it. Misplaced Pages is not a news site. If no one else cares, I don't see why WP should be first. This sets a bad precedent. --W.marsh 18:21, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

It's not that no one cares... tons of places would print this. The problem is that, well, it's more than a little disrespectful to suggest that Carter needs to be outed publicly, in a news story. That seems to me a thornier issue, if the policies that exist to protect someone's dignity are being used to force him to either remain permanantly in the closet or to come out in the form of a press release. Phil Sandifer 18:36, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

So let other places print it, it seems to be "out" now - let's see what happens. Misplaced Pages simply does not exist to provide help to people with their public relations problems. Like I said, it would be a bad precedent to let people come to Misplaced Pages and tell us what they want to be in the article (if that information isn't published elsewhere). --W.marsh 18:43, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Phil, WP:V is policy, and if you disagree with the policy, go there to get it changed. In the meantime, you, as an admin, need to promote policy, not try to tear it down. This information violates WP:V, and therefore cannot be kept. If Grammer gives an interview to a reliable news source, then we can quote the news source, but until then, it's not a reliable source. User:Zoe|(talk) 18:33, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Zoe, WP:IAR is also policy, and if you disagree with using common sense instead of blindly using it as a sledgehammer, go there to get it changed. In the meantime, you, as an admin, need to promote policy, not try to tear it down. The information is clearly accurate and in the spirit of all of our policies, most particularly WP:BLP, and therefore should remain. If Grammer gives an interview to a reliable news source, then we can quote the news source, but until then, it's good enough. Phil Sandifer 18:40, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources states "Posts to bulletin boards, Usenet, and wikis, or messages left on blogs, should not be used as primary or secondary sources." This is a post on a wiki. Ergo, it is not acceptable. The fact that we can check the poster's identity is irrelevant - we rely on reliable sources to do fact-checking, not us. Remember that Misplaced Pages policy is "Verifiability, not truth". I have removed this claim and until Ms Grammer's assertion is published in a reliable source with a reputation for fact-checking (we don't even have a reputation for including facts in the first place, let alone checking them), this is not acceptable to include on Misplaced Pages. --Sam Blanning 18:39, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

WP:RS is a guideline. WP:BLP is policy, and clearly allows information to be added to the talk page, as supported by one of the Foundation workers, Amgine. Policy trumps guideline, and actually thinking about the situation instead of using them as sledgehammers trumps all. Phil Sandifer 18:44, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

WP:V states "Articles should rely on credible, third-party sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy". We are not a third-party source, and we do not have a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. WP:RS makes the prohibition on wiki posts explicit, but any reading of WP:V makes it perfectly obvious that bulletin board, blog and wiki posts are not credible third-party sources anyway. We do not have a credible third-party source, therefore policy states we cannot include this information. What part of this do you not understand? To others: Phil has continued to revert, and as I apply a loose form of WP:1RR (I don't revert unless someone else has) I encourage someone else to remove this unsourced information. --Sam Blanning 18:53, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

WP:BLP (Which is policy) clearly provides for information to be added via talk pages. And RS clearly allows for self-published sources, which this fits the bill of. There's no useful difference between the talk page and a blog - both are equally fact-checked, and yet we'd take it from a blog and not a talk page? That's absurd - we ought apply sense instead of policy in that case, which is exactly what IAR (Also policy) provides for. Phil Sandifer 18:57, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

This is silly. The statement is not from a "self-published" source. The information you're including is coming from a third party—the actual subject of the article being dead—and therefore (a) doesn't fall under the "self-published" provision and (b) needs to be from a reliable source. More to the point, the assertion being made qualifies as "unusual or scandalous", and thus requires very careful sourcing if it is to be included. Kirill Lokshin 19:05, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Er, we don't take information from blogs, ever, unless it's to say "X wrote Y in his blog", which this isn't. And where exactly does WP:BLP give Misplaced Pages an exemption from the line I quoted from WP:V above? The closest I get is "Information supplied by the subject may be added to the article if..." which goes onto say "...it meets verifiability, NPOV, and no original research policies", which this doesn't. And WP:IAR cannot possibly be invoked to overturn verfiability in this case, which is a cornerstone of writing an encyclopaedia. This is not WikiMe.org. --Sam Blanning 19:10, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

We regularly use blogs as sources, Sam. Please don't try to apply these policies so rigidly as to make them useless. If we rigidly applied WP:RS and WP:V to every article, we'd have to start by gutting the featured articles. Spoo would be a good place to start. Phil Sandifer 19:36, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, using common sense is appropriate. For example, when someone makes points about an obscure fictional food on a TV show, we decide to be lenient and not insist on scholarly citations. On the other hand, when someone adds potentially scandalous assertions—about an individual's previously unknown "pursuit of a gender change", for example—we should be extra careful that this information can be traced to reputable sources before including it. Kirill Lokshin 19:45, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Feel free to remove all unsourced or inadequately sourced content from all articles, and nominate inadequately sourced featured articles for featured article status removal if necessary. We have a lot of pages, and the fact that some of them are not sourced to the necessary standard does not mean I have to turn a blind eye to this one. Your argument is equivalent to the "if this article is deleted lots of others should be to" line beloved of self-promoters at AfD. ---Sam Blanning 19:48, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

You're rather gravely misunderstanding my point. The standards you're citing, if rigidly applied, render the encyclopedia unwritable. It's not a matter of one or two stray articles that nobody has gotten around to - it's a matter of entire categories of articles that need to be eliminated. The community would not support that, for obvious reasons. Which means that RS and V are not policies that should be applied like sledgehammers. Phil Sandifer 19:56, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

It would not render the encyclopaedia unwritable in the least. We have hundreds of articles which are verified by reliable sources. All the articles that I have written are among them, and if some aren't, feel free to challenge them. If I can write a few measly articles that are verified by reliable sources, then certainly dedicated writers can do the same. If adhering to reliable sources would result in some FAs being delisted, frankly my dear I don't give a damn. We can write enough articles while still relying on verifiability that we don't need any articles that are based on what some guy said on some wiki.

When we have written every single article that can be written based on reliable sources and gotten it to featured status, perhaps then we can start to consider whether we should start relaxing our standards. --Sam Blanning 01:34, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I have acted to revert Dave Carter as Sam Blanning has suggested. I have also removed disputed content from Dave Carter and Tracy Grammer. It seems there is a supermajority supporting the removal of the content. I feel that this really should be respected--at the very least until the supporting foundation member can speak to his/her position on this. -MrFizyx 19:14, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. I can't imagine that a foundation member is going to say "On the authority of the Foundation, this information must be included". All Foundation Members are entitled to their opinion, and until such time as they make it anything more binding, we are under no obligation to follow it. --Sam Blanning 19:48, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Supporting Foundation Member... that sounds like an accusation. I'm a wikimedian, a volunteer like everyone else here, and have rather less authority on Misplaced Pages than most of the people involved in this thread.

While I feel this particular fact is relevant and important to the article (and the public statement on the talk page is verified as from Ms Grammer), at best it should be stated as "Ms Grammer reports..." or some such equally awkward construction. I wonder that no one has asked Ms Grammer to mention this in her blog? (As to the dismissal of the use of blogs as a publication, they are used extensively for just such within Misplaced Pages and are proven no more unreliable than newspapers or PAC publications which are likewise cited throughout Misplaced Pages.) However, the Misplaced Pages community determines the content of Misplaced Pages, and if the policy monitors consider this statement to be an egregious violation I applaud their decision, and strongly encourge them to examine the articles in Category:Living people, as well as the many articles which have not yet been included in this category but should be. - Amgine 19:49, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Why is this an issue for AN/I? I think the RS issue is fascinating, but shouldn't this be subject to normal dispute resolution? The only admin action seems to be Phil verifying that the talk page commentator really was Tracy Grammer, and I don't think anyone objects to that. TheronJ 20:18, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Be that as it may, we have an admin making or supporting an edit that is clearly outside of policy. If someone makes a comment on the talk page of his or her biographical article it still needs verification somewhere more public than said talk page. If it is someone's partner, even more so. Metamagician3000 05:53, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Phil's argument is completely ridiculous. If one wants to self-publish original research and/or reporting, one should go find an online encyclopedia that doesn't require that its material be verifiable and from a reliable source. To put this in context, if an anon was adding this sort of material to a page that User:Phil Sandifer patrolled with the same sort of ludicrous explanation, Phil would have blocked him 8 times by now. Nandesuka 11:52, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Of course Phil's argument is ridiculous, and it relies once more on treating electronic communication as if it were documentary. As an editor (I mean a print one), I could not accept any alledged representation of an author that didn't have autograph. Further, any statement from a lover/friend would be a footnote in an introduction to a volume and never, ever, ever a substantial part of any presentation. So, if there were an autograph letter from the lover, it would be a footnote. If there were an e-mail, it would never get that far. If there were e-mail from the subject of discussion, it would be a footnote. Again, those of us who have had to deal with actual figures with actually documented lives know damned well that friends tell lies. Stephen Spender went about for decades making his dinner on the lecture circuit swearing that Virginia and Leonard Woolf were as heterosexual as a Playboy orgy, that TS Eliot and Vivian were deliriously happy in marriage, and that all those people who said otherwise didn't know the Bloomsbury circle, weren't there, the way he was. Spender was, of course, fooling himself and no one else. One does not take a friend's word, and one never accepts any vapor communication. It's not verifiable, and verification isn't even the issue as much as corroboration is. Geogre 12:30, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I read through some of this and I think Category:Notable Wikipedians should go, too, because it is original research. Not only that, having the categories on the talk pages looks messy. 12:14, 16 September 2006 (UTC) Oops I failed to sign correctly. I searched and searched for my name to find my post but could not find it, I almost thought it was removed but no I just did not sign right. Very sorry. Anomo 07:14, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, anonymous coward, it should, but that's not germane. Geogre 12:30, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Good idea, though. Whee! --Sam Blanning 01:31, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Phil Sandifer certainly likes to drop names. First it's a "foundation member" who approved his edits, now its "Jimbo". Heh.

So now we have Phil writing unsourced articles on Misplaced Pages, then using those as evidence to support his edits on Misplaced Pages. And claiming that Jimbo told him it was okay. User:Zoe|(talk) 03:11, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

This is absurd. The information is not verifiable, plain and simple. It doesn't belong here. Jayjg 04:35, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Alm93 adding ethnic categories to many (200 odd) bio articles.

This user is adding categories like Category:Hungarian-New Zealanders and Category:Irish Canadians and populating them based on solely the person's name and no other information. I have left a note on their talk page but I note they are listed as a possible sockpuppet of User:70.81.117.175. None of the edits have comments or supporting references. - SimonLyall 13:22, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to do a mass revert on this. Any objections? --Pjacobi 18:08, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Support. Without verification, it's all OR. User:Zoe|(talk) 18:35, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Done about 250 reverts. But there are about 1000 more to do. Seems to need help by bot. He've done the categorizations faster than 1/min often. This must have been bot/JavaScript assisted. And of course its OR and sometimes total nonsense.

• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Walter_Dieter&diff=75606647&oldid=63893716

Or we put the categories on TfD and let a bot do the cleanup. But: do have the categories some legitimate content?

Pjacobi 20:04, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I've just knocked out the balance (502 exactly). --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 02:19, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I've reverted an edit by this user to Human height, FWIW the edit may be valid, I probably would not have reverted had I not seen this thread here recently... but... Pete.Hurd 22:52, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I can't believe that he wasn't asked to stop. I've just reverted several more and deleted several of the categories that he created. And told him to quit. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 19:35, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

IrishGuy revisions

User IrishGuy is repeatedly revising a page to remove material based on a personal grudge with the user that is posting it. The article in quesiton is Joppa, in which I am trying to add a small bullet--no links--concerning the name Joppa. This is not spam, as he keeps insisting. He is also taking this out on the Songs To Wear Pants To article. This article refers to a songwriter. One of his songs is entitled "What is Joppa Anyway?" and it was included in his list of songs on the article. Again, IrishGuy is continuing to remove only this song due to a personal grudge. I will admit that, in the past, I have taken a rather "annoyed" backlash against this user, but knowing the policies better now, I am simply trying to prevent him from "personal grudge" vandalism of pages concerning my edits--which are all legal. Please help. Drdunbar 18:04, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

The above user is spamming Misplaced Pages with advertising for his site and harassing me personally. This is the fourth time he has requested an admin to come after me for reverting his spamming. His website had an article that was deleted in an AfD. During that time, he sent people from his site to sway the AfD , after that AfD the article has been recreated and speedied again twice. This user has repeatedly spammed links to his website in various articles (specifically, articles I created) under his IP address, (examples: etc.) and has continued to attack me an try to send others here from his forum . Unable to spam Misplaced Pages without it being reverted, he has now taken to doing this. I am being harassed, pure and simple and it is really beginning to annoy me. IrishGuy 18:14, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I had already mentioned that my above conduct was due to an outlash against IrishGuy's attack on an article due to personal issues, and not wiki guidelines. I have since refrained from my actions, knowing the policies of this site more clearly. This CURRENT issue has nothing to do with my past behavior. I am simply trying to keep up a couple pages, and he continues to delete anything I put up due to PAST GRUDGES. Nothing I am posting contains any "spam links" or personal promotion by any means. They are legitimate additions to legitimate articles. He continues to accuse me in the eyes of administration of reposting a deleted article, which I have NOT done. You can check the background on that. I didn't even publish the article that was deleted, I was simply there to defend it. He obviously has an issue with me personally, and is using that to remove my posts. I have nowhere else to turn. I really enjoy this site, and IrishGuy is giving it a bad name. I am sorry for that, as well as my past transgressions. Drdunbar 18:24, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Er, Drdunbar, you claim that you're making legitimate edits and not spamming, but your most recent edits do not fit that description , . It's just all stuff about and/or links to this Joppa website. Contrary to popular belief, Misplaced Pages does not owe random websites free publicity and webhosting. I've looked through the basics of this situation and it seems IrishGuy is in the right. Drdunbar, we'd welcome any positive contributions but doing nothing but promoting your website is not really going to win you friends. --W.marsh 18:36, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I just don't see what my revisions have anything to do with promotion. There are no "links" at all to my website. I am simply putting up a song title that belongs in the list. If you also look at the history of that page, I did not put it up there to begin with. Another contributor to that page did, and IrishGuy deleted it out of spite. I have been simply trying to revert back from his vandalism. STWPT produced a song for the webiste. I have simply stated that on the article, without links of any means. That is not self-promotion. If you would feel better about another user adding, that's fine. But, I wasn't the original poster to begin with. Drdunbar 18:41, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Your edits are spam, no matter what you call them, and IrishGuy's edits are perfectly reasonable. I suggest you find a PR firm that you can hire to do your advertising for you. Misplaced Pages is not the place. User:Zoe|(talk) 18:48, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

It's very interesting that these users keep popping up from nowhere all of a sudden, IrishGuy? Hmmm. Not making any accusations here, but they all share a very familiar form of argument--baseless and attacking. TRUST me, Zoe, or whoever you are, I don't need wikipedia to promote anything for Joppa, I've got enough of that all over the web. There's no links or WEBSITES included on my posts. STWPT produced a song for us, along with the OTHER songs on that article. Our song has legitimate cause to be there. End of story. You either delete them all, or leave them all. Sorry, guys, you can throw "spam" at me all you want, but any "real" person that takes a look at it will see otherwise. Drdunbar 18:54, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Side note I noticed that since these "other users" came out of the wookwork, I've seen a sudden break in IrishGuy's activity on Misplaced Pages. Again, no accusations here. Just pointing something out. Drdunbar 18:58, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I guess you're trying to imply that I'm a sockpuppet of IrishGuy. You'll have to try harder. Let me just warn you that what I am, is an admin, and if you continue to spam, you will be blocked. Let's leave it at that. User:Zoe|(talk) 19:02, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, if someone, especially an admin, can be me a definition of "spamming" that encompasses what I'm doing, I will be glad to stop. Drdunbar 19:04, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

See WP:SPAM and WP:EL. JoshuaZ 19:12, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Those guidelines would be very helpful if I a) had external links in my post, or b) was promoting a website. I'm doing neither. Please read the post in question before responding here. I'll keep those rules in mind for the future. Drdunbar 19:16, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Hey, Willy on Wheels hasn't posted since you started this AN/I report, anyone notice that? No accusation, just pointing something out. Perfectly logical, right? :/ Danny Lilithborne 19:07, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Excellent point. Drdunbar 19:10, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I've blocked Drdunbar for 24 hours for violating 3RR after having been warned. User:Zoe|(talk) 20:16, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Let that be a warning: never call Zoe a sock puppet, even in jest. ;) -- llywrch 22:30, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

That wasn't the reason for the block. He was blocked for violating 3RR after having been warned. User:Zoe|(talk) 00:39, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure he knows that, he was just joking around.--KojiDude 00:47, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Length of block of IP 12.151.120.81

I've just blocked the IP 12.151.120.81 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log), for a spree of vandalism. Because the IP was caught relatively early, because I couldn't establish a definitive link between this round of vandalism and earlier sprees (although a link with yesterday is very likely), and because it might be a shared IP, I decided to block the IP for only 24 hours. Jaysweet (talk · contribs) has come up to me, saying that this IP will immediately resort to vandalism when the block has expired. I'm inclined to believe him, but I don't wanna take any action on this without consulting my fellow admins and friends first. Does this IP block need to be extended? Aecis 19:28, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Leave it as it is, and if the vandal returns promptly after the block expires, block for 2 days, 4, etc. Essentially you're probing to see how long the ISP in question leases that IP to the specific person. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 19:33, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I would say extend to a month at least, anon-only and account creation disabled, as the IP came back after a 2 week block. There are clear patterns in the contributions, for example from Martin Luther King, Jr. in August to Jay-Z a few days ago and Ice cube yesterday (on the object, but referring to the rapper) and today. Regardless, there are no particularly positive edits that I can see, and if someone else does try to use the IP the instructions given in Mediawiki:Blockedtext are comprehensive. --Sam Blanning 19:37, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

To clarify, the fact that the user has vandalised one article over a month apart (Ian Williams) indicates that the user isn't switching IPs. The only question that remains is whether others are using the IP, and it doesn't look like it. --Sam Blanning 19:39, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Finlay -- the escalation has already occured, peeking with a two week block (which happened exactly two weeks ago, by the way ;p ). One thing I mentioned to Aecis that I find particularly of concern is that this isn't light-hearted Colbert-esque vandalism, these are nasty racist attacks. It's harder to laugh it off. Anyway, thanks to all the admins here for looking at this issue. I appreciate it! --Jaysweet 21:49, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

The IP belongs to the Metropolitan Museum of Art; I don't see much risk of collateral damage and endorse a longer block. Mackensen (talk) 21:48, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I've blocked the IP for three months. The chances that I've denied us a featured article or two by my block are sufficiently close to minus zero. --Sam Blanning 01:15, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Miracleimpulse (talk · contribs)

This user has been involved in a POV edit war on Sweetest Day (see this entry in the archive). Today he created on Commons an page identical to his userfied version (User:Miracleimpulse/The Sweetest Day Hoax) - at Commons:The Sweetest Day Hoax. This was soon deleted off Commons as inappropriate. This was mistakenly copied back to en at The Sweetest Day Hoax, and was deleted again off Misplaced Pages when the mistake was realised. The user has since recreated it again on Commons, this time at Commons:User:Miracleimpulse. Considering the fact he has been blocked on Misplaced Pages for disruption related to this article, it seems appropriate to bring it up here.--Commons:User:Nilfanion/Nilfanion (talk) 20:29, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Umm... *waves* You can blame me. I made the suggestion that, if they met Commons policies, the images he keeps trying to add to the Sweetest Day article might be better in Commons; apparently he took this as an invitation to move the entire thing to Commons, which wasn't my intention at all. I've been trying to find a diplomatic way of handling this user, who appears to have an unhealthy obsession with Sweetest Day - he has outright accused myself and others of being shills for the industry, and suggested that Sweetest Day causes terrorism, which doesn't break any policies but is a sign of this editor's preoccupation with a Hallmark Holiday. All of his contributions have been either to the Sweetest Day page, user talk pages, or inserting information about Sweetest Day into other articles. He's even made a YouTube video about the matter, linked at Commons- oh, and now that I've checked, apparently linked from the Sweetest Day page here on EN, along with the user's homepage. Anyway, I just wanted to clarify that some of this may be due to an honest misunderstanding, possibly enhanced by an unhealthy obsession with the topic. Captainktainer * Talk 11:05, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Possible sockpuppet of User:Arthur Ellis

Arthur Ellis has recently been removing large portions of Rachel Marsden, as he does from time to time. Yesterday, after Ellis had reverted for the second time, a new user Craigleithian appeared, performing much the same edits as Ellis -- namely, removing sections that contained sourced and verifiable information that did not reflect well on the article's subject. 3 of Craigleithian's 4 edits are wholesale removal of material from the Marden article. Suspect that this may be a sock to circumvent 3RR.

Craiglethian's edits: Ellis's edits in that time frame:

An admin may wish to check this out. Ianking 00:02, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Looks pretty obvious to me, but a checkuser request has been filed just in case. Thatcher131 02:12, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh, quite. Mackensen (talk) 03:51, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Checkuser case showed positive. He has now been blocked per the report on WP:AN/3RR. User:Arthur Ellis for 1 week for his 4th violation of 3RR and sockpuppet abuse. And the sockpuppet account has made no other contributions so has been blocked indefinitely.--Konstable

User:Randazzo56 Vandalizing Henry Ford and Talk:Henry Ford

USer Randazzo56 has been vandalizing both the Henry Ford and the Talk:Henry Ford articles with nasty vulgarisms and Holocaust denial. Rjensen 02:51, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually I think Rjensen's descripion of this editor's activities is understated. User:Randazzo56's vandalism of Henry Ford and the talk page has been blatant. . He then inserted anti-Semitic remarks into Rjensen's comments on the talk page. and made obscene remarks.

This editor has been previously blocked for one month for vandalism. I think an indefinite block is warranted. --Mantanmoreland 15:02, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Xizer

Xizer (talk • contribs • page moves • block user • block log) has been attacking other users through edit summaries as seen on Straight Outta Lynwood and Lazytown. He has been warned on his talk page multiple times but continues the offending behavior. -- Michael Greiner 03:05, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay, if you're going to report someone, you should at least get their name right. And you don't warn someone and then go report them for that same incident saying they're continuing to use the behavior you warned them about. Perhaps you could show me where I attacked other users after you edited my talk page? I'm not seeing it. "Continuing" my ass. And two doesn't really qualify as "multiple times." Well, I guess it does, but once could also qualify considering the fact that 1 is also a multiple. Xizer 03:14, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Tone it down a little please, Xizer. -- Samir धर्म 04:10, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Is there a reason this user has not been banned? He's clearly not interested in contributing productively.--SB | T 04:58, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Blocked for 24 hours for now, we'll have to wait and see if he can hopefully cool down. // Pilotguy (Have your say) 05:04, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Has anybody checked Xizer's block log? He has been involved in blatant racist vandalism in the past, and has been blocked repeatedly, only to keep claiming to reform. I propose an indefinite block. User:Zoe|(talk) 02:55, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Block review

Culverin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) was blocked for a mere 24 hours for his hideous use of sockpuppets to make edits like this personal attack using an offensive username,this personal attack with impersonation using my signature, and this impersonation on one of my friends' user talk pages, intending to cause harm to Dfrg.msc by saying that "I" don't care about improving an article we're currently collaborating on at present. These users were proven to be Culverin's sockpuppets at Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/Culverin, and were all blocked indefinately.

I feel that 24 hours is not long enough a block for this violations of WP:NPA, WP:VAND as well as impersonating another user with intent to cause harm. He obviously knew it was wrong, or he would have made these vandalistic edits on his main account. I really think an extension of the block be imposed, because this behaviour was very serious, and worthy of a more harsher block.

If this is not warranted, at least the abusive sockpuppet confirmed tag should be added to his userpage for an extended period (1 month or so), as he took it down the moment he was unblocked, meaning it only lasted just over 24 hours. I was willing to forget and forgive, but actions like these show his lack of remorse, where he failed to apologise and move on, but instead just remove the post without even responding to it. All this from an "established editor on Misplaced Pages", who knew the rules, and thoughthe could get around them. Daniel.Bryant 04:22, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

On a quick check of the links provided by the {{vandal|username}} template at the start of this message, I see that Glen has dealt with it. Thanks! Daniel.Bryant 07:19, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

See User_talk:Culverin#You_have_been_blocked and his block log - should be fairly self-explanatory - Glen 10:42, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

User:TareTone

This user was originally the banned user Tonetare who was banned for leaving abusive messages on my page and a number of others (I'm not quite sure why he's allowed to edit now but that's an admin thing). That was the past and it's fine someone get's a second chance. However his pattern of behaviour seems to have carried over into his new username. we have him striving for me to leave wikipedia. Then we have a situation where he tells another editor that it's sweet that he got him to quit editing an article and so on.

I would have never realised that he had actually rejoined Misplaced Pages except one of his first moves was to turn up on my page and berate me for removing german commerical linkspam from the english golfpage (a page he's never edited but one he seems to have picked out of thin air as an example of my "rude" editing). His MO seems to be abuse and then if he drops in the odd "gee sorry" and then carries on as before, then everything is fine. I'm getting a little tired of it. I'm also more concerned about the low-quality like this. I could explain to him as before why that sort of edit does not below in an encylopdia, but if he could never grasp why "smack-talking bitches" does not belong in an encylopedia, why is he going to get this? --Charlesknight 08:13, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Some also needs to explain WP:Own with him, as per this edit and this one

--Charlesknight 12:42, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm on it. El_C 13:00, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I imposed a 24-hour block in light of the user's threatening response on my talk page. El_C 20:22, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

This user and me are good friends and he was User:Tonetare and was blocked by Tryenius only because he was going to use a different IP in the future as seen in the block log. Tryenius had no reason to block him at all unless he was doing something else. He came back as Taretone, and promised only to talk to me, and otherwise wasn't going to be here. That's a brief little thing about his first block etc. Sugarpine 20:26, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Please urge the user to adhere to policy. I was unaware of there being a first block. El_C 20:34, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I just asked him not to make any more NPA. However, Tryenius had NO right to block him because he said he was going to use another IP in the future. I am getting a little annoyed with Tryenius also. I am asking him to adhere to policy though. Sugarpine 20:36, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I am sick and tired of disputes between Tryenius, Tonetare, and Charlesknight and I want it over NOW. I think the best way to handle this is mediation or arbitration. Any comments? Sugarpine 20:41, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Tonetare was blocked for a week for personal abuse, extended to 2 weeks for continuing extreme abusive behaviour, which is on the talk page under his former name as User:TareTone. He sometimes edits as User:65.31.100.170. He has only just returned from the block and unfortunately has continued to show frequent aggressive behaviour. Tyrenius 21:30, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

That's of course why you unblocked him to extend the block to indef. Sugarpine 21:43, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I will agree to neither - the facts speak for themselves, unless you think my conduct or edits or edit history is in some way related to, are similar to behaviour such as:

1,2, 3,4,5, 6, 7,8, 9, 10

Those are just the first ten that spring to mind - do I really need to provide any more?

Remind me - what is it that I am suppose to answer for? Not allowing abusive editors to run me off articles that need improving? Not allowing abusive editors to introduce low-quality edits such as Smack talking bitches ? If that's what I'm suppose to answer for - guilty on all charges M'lud. I stay on my edits and my conduct, I have always acted in the best interest of the community and the encyclopedia.

--Charlesknight 21:13, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes you do. We need to get this over with now, and Taretone has a new IP and will be using his new IP, so he is using sockpuppets. We need an admin, not involbed in this, to finish this for us. Sugarpine 21:19, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Let me get this straight - we need to mediate because he's going to evade his block by using sockpuppets? --Charlesknight 21:25, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

We need to reach and agreement. So, Tonetare doesn't bother you or Tryenius. We don't have another fight, with Taretone under another account. That's what were doing this for. Sugarpine 21:26, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

So if you know his new IP, you will of course be reporting it to admin as a sockpuppet, right? --Charlesknight 21:28, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Since no one else can talk to Taretone, we need to request arbitration. Unless, he starts with you or Tryenius again I will not report him to an admin as a sock. Sugarpine 21:31, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

TareTone has had the chance to come back and interact with others in a CIVIL fashion, but he seems incapable of doing this. Tyrenius 21:38, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Sugarpine - If you wish to go to Arbitration that is your concern, there is no "we" in this matter. I have nothing further to say at this point unless someone requests further information. --Charlesknight 21:40, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

• I've extended the block to a month in light of the abusive history (which I failed to notice). After that, it will be indefinite, for any account. El_C 03:13, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

User_talk:Afrika paprika

I require a mediator between me and this user. If one can observe his contributions and his talk page, he/she may notice several things: He has been blocked for violating a 3RR revert on the Nikola Tesla article, despite being familiar with the 3RR rule. He has been deleting references that are connected to anything Serbian in any way on Dado Pršo and his edits on Predrag Stojaković also deserve a note. He has then been blocked twice for edit-warring and the 3RR on Dado Prso. After User:PANONIAN warned him (among other users) for his nationalistic edits, he told him "..kiss me in my but" and called him Greater Serbian here. And here he repeated the but-kissing request and said that his underwhear shakes (in fear) ironicly.

After I showed him three wikipedia rules at User_talk:Afrika_paprika#Pagania; and he said that I was banned (when I wasn't, totally misunderstanding the issue), he resorted to a personal attack calling me totally derranged. After an administrator, User:DragonflySixtyseven, confirmed my theses that his actions are that of an internet troll and told him that he needs to at least modify his behaveour, he soundly refused. To the bottom, I repeated the Misplaced Pages policies (WP:NOR, WP:CITE and WP:V), but he again appearently missed them, classifying my edits as vandalism - when in truth his were - not noticing that my edits are only a part of a content dispute. Even though User:Asterion noted and confirmed that he should refer to rules, he ignored him as well and again repeated how I was blocked. Here, at the noticeboard, he also repeated that I was blocked when I reported under "Pagania", despite me explaining the detailed situation to him every single time. What's more, he further continues an edit war on Duklja, Pagania, Zahumlje and Travunia; and openly refuses to discuss anything whatsoever(after being kindly invited on every single talk page of the the corresponding articles, including his talk page. It is hereby that I ask someone to interviene between us and check if my judgements aren't correct (I could be wrong). --HolyRomanEmperor 13:03, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Totally off-topic here, but I'm suspicious of how HRE has suddenly failed to spell properly again. – Chacor 13:09, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

FWIW I believe it is him. — Moe Epsilon 16:25 September 16 '06

Its me alright - but why's it off-topic - this article was pointed when I asked where to file a record of the incident(s). --HolyRomanEmperor 16:01, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Musikfabrik

I have indefinitely blocked User:Musikfabrik for being a shared account as admitted here. The policy against such accounts may be found at Misplaced Pages:Blocking#"Public" accounts. I welcome a review of this block. Mak (talk) 18:44, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm all for bending the policy to accommodate obvious cases (anyone remember User:Hydnjo, who did his blind wife's typing?) -- but this is a clear case of one account being used by a company (Musik Fabrik = classicalmusicnow.com, publishers, promoters, etc.). As far as I understand it, we don't allow role accounts because of their potential abuse by these kinds of entities. The block looks ok to me. Antandrus (talk) 19:05, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Even though I'm not an admin, I thoroughly endorse the block - a PR account is bad enough, but a shared PR account is even worse. However, isn't that template ("This user has been blocked indefinitely blah blah blah") supposed to go on the User page and not the User Talk page? Captainktainer * Talk 19:08, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Does it make a difference? --pgk 19:13, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Not a tremendous amount... though I'd like to know for my own edification, even so. Captainktainer * Talk 20:20, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

The original user has now created another account, purportedly under their own name (diff) User:Jean-Thierry Boisseau. This account has not been blocked as of this writing. Mak (talk) 20:32, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Messhermit banned from Alberto Fujimori

Under the terms of his probation in the arbitration case Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Messhermit, I have banned Messhermit from editing Alberto Fujimori, which he has disrupted by edit warring. --Tony Sidaway 20:49, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Extremly rude user.

Can someone please ban User:Askolnick? He has critisized me for every little thing I do. I asked him to assume good faith, and all I got was more of his argumentitive and overly-critical additude. What am I supposed to do if he won't listen to any of my justifications? He told me not to use Misplaced Pages policies to be incivil (according to him, if I say I was offended by a remark, it's incivil). I tried to cite sources as he asked, and he asked me if I have *actually* read the guideline. When I mentioned I read the back of a psysic's book he told me that there was no sourced and demanded me to retract my satment. I refuse to accept this. -- Selmo 21:08, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

• This should go to WP:PAIN. Danny Lilithborne 21:13, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Done -- Selmo 21:24, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

• Read what the person wrote above. Maybe it shouldn't go to WP:PAIN. Sure seems like run of the mill bogosity to me. "I read it on the back of a psychic's book" in fact isn't a sourced reference, and "assume good faith" is a hollow phrase batted about by those who generally demonstrate bad practice. I'd be wary of seeming to endorse the complaint here. Geogre 02:27, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Andrew Skolnick is a good chap. Doesn't suffer fools gladly, though. --Tony Sidaway 03:59, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Block review

Xosa (talk • contribs • page moves • block user • block log) was blocked by SlimVirgin as a sock of Zephram Stark. One comment here Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive57#Sockpuppet block of User:Xosa.3F, but it seems to need further investigation since the user pleads innocence and has taken the discusison elsewhere as well. The major problem is that SV was in a content dispute with Xosa at the time. If this is a verifiable sock of ZS that should not matter, ZS being banned and all, but I'd appreciate more eyes. Guy 21:22, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I was not in a content dispute with Xosa. He posted some insults of another editor on the talk page of an article I was editing, but that had nothing to do with the sockpuppet diagnosis. I'd already spotted the pattern before he did that.

I asked Fred Bauder to review the block at the time, and he saw no reason to lift it. SlimVirgin 21:31, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Apologies, I see you are right. I was going by the statements of the Wikia user who posted on my Talk. Guy 21:51, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Exactly who was that "Wikia user" anyway? Jayjg 02:48, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I should add that I invited Xosa to e-mail me to discuss the block, but he still hasn't done so. SlimVirgin 21:34, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't ZS always plead innocence? --pgk 21:43, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, indeed, convincingly and elaborately. :-) SlimVirgin 22:33, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Fake block template posted by user 66.246.72.108

It seems that user 66.246.72.108 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) placed a bogus block message on Ryodox talk page:

This user may also be a sock-puppet (of 69.167.100.155 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) and/or DocFisherKing (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)?), as his posting behaviour looks very suspicious: a bunch of edits every 6 months or so, but then those are very significant ones, such as the one on David Duke --Frescard 23:35, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd recommend that the article be fully protected. There's an involved dispute going on over there, and it's all quite silly really (see my last message on it's talk page). I for one am not getting any more involved than that one message of mine. --Crimsone 23:50, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

They're both anons, one is from Parsippany NJ, the other from Redondo Beach CA; if he's an anon posting while visiting family, should we treat it as puppetry? Septentrionalis 00:12, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Sockpuppets of -Inanna-...can someone help?

Please see KanuniSS (talk · contribs) and KreshnikD (talk · contribs). What gives Kanuni away is this edit, in addition to the fact that they talk almost the exact same way. Inanna recently even sent me an email full of weird threats, which is why I know she's active on Misplaced Pages right now. Kreshnik is obvious as well because she admitted that 85.107.214.53 was her former IP. Kachik has been blocked already. —Khoikhoi 00:26, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Semen article 3RR violation

in article semen anon user:65.30.152.217 has reverted or modified four times in the last 24 hours, and I anticipate shall again. The issue is that there is a lead image of a sample of semen that the anon user apparently find to be "pornographic". There has been an ongoing discussion on the talk page about the image, and getting a better picture. The anon user insists on unilateral changes without working with others on the talk page. Could an admin please warn/block the anon IP, and protect the page for awhile? Thanks, Atom 00:40, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

You don't have to be an admin to warn the anon, simply add {{3RR}} on their talk page. If they violate it report them at WP:AN/3RR. Also, this isn't really the place to resolve content disputes—we have dispute resolution for that. —Khoikhoi 01:34, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. I have put in a warning on their page, as well as used wp:AN/3RR, thanks. Atom 02:21, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Iditarod (race)

Somebody please protect this article, I don't have the paitence to deal with this anymore. Several IP addresses are adding very POV content, and I've just stopped caring. Desertsky85451 02:20, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Requests for protection of articles should be listed at WP:RFPP. Sorry if I sound a bit bureaucratic. --physicq210 02:30, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Movie quotes

I'm not sure if this is the right forum, but I was directed here from the Help Desk. User:Haonhien seems to be in the process of writing an article for each of the memorable quotes of Casablanca (e.g. Play it once, Sam, Here's looking at you, kid), regurgitating part of the plot each time to pinpoint where the quote is uttered, but not really adding any new information. I love the movie, but this seems a bit excessive to me. I haven't contacted Haonhien yet because I wanted to know Misplaced Pages's stance first. Clarityfiend 02:59, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I hate to shuffle you off to yet another place, but the proper place to decide this really is by listing them at Misplaced Pages:Articles for Deletion. An admin's descretion (which is all that could be reached here) would not be a good way to delete these articles. However, you should talk to the guy creating them first, really. The closest thing to a "Misplaced Pages stance" on these articles would be whether the individual quotes have been written about meaningfully by third party sources. But people might add more subjective criteria of "notability" to keeping or deleting them as well... this would all come out at AfD. --W.marsh 03:06, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

User talk:Markles deliberately blanking references

User talk:Markles systematically strips links to library resources like JSTOR -- arguing that if he cannot access them then nobody should be allowed to access them. Many millions of Wiki users have free access through their academic or public libraries. Rjensen 03:03, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I've added an explanation on his talk page that such references are clearly allowed and shouldn't be removed. It appears that he has only done this a few times, and not at all since your/our messages. However, if he continues removing references, I would suggest a block eventually for disruption or some such, since it does hurt the quality of articles to remove the references. --W.marsh 03:20, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

While there's no problem with having the links, I suggest that you don't put the link over the title of the book but have it following the regular citation, and also mention that the link requires subscription, as is commonly done when linking to newspaper archives, for example. It's ok to have the links, but it should be mentioned that not everyone is able to access the entirity of the material. --bainer (talk) 03:24, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Proposing community impatience ban for Freestylefrappe

... Because the community has been plenty patient up until now.

An additional remedy was recently passed and appended to his arbitration case, limiting him to one account. He chose User:Ya ya ya ya ya ya, or so it seemed. Instead, silently, he began editing from User:EFG -- now blocked by Fred Bauder.

Please read these messages, from after the block: . ("By the way, I'm switching accounts again. Do your best to stop me. It sure has worked in the past. Ya ya ya ya ya ya 03:05, 17 September 2006 (UTC) (Freestylefrappe)")

Enough. If he doesn't want to be responsible for his own contributions, and forever flit from account to account when his anger issues get the better of him, let's be done. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 03:27, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I would concur - he is intentionally trying to make a mockery of the Arbcom, admins and Misplaced Pages policy with these actions. Daniel.Bryant 03:33, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd suggest banning but it'll hurt my chances at RfA in the future. Mackensen (talk) 03:38, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, if I were an RfA voter, I'd vote against you for putting popularity before principle. Follow your principles and trust that your fellow editors will recognize their worth. Cheers, Kasreyn 05:25, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I think you missed the sarcasm. Having been made a sysop two years back, I'm not concerned about my own RfA. Having done the checkuser that verified the sockpuppetry, I'm definitely in favor of the ban. Mackensen (talk) 05:52, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I enjoyed your sarcasm in an uncomfortable manner, if it's any consolation, Mackensen :-) —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 05:59, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, some of us got it, and thoroughly appreciated the sarcasm. It is a shame that an excellent, insightful, tactful, diplomatic, productive, and hard-working editor, in harm's way by working in difficult areas, gets hammered at RfA over one comment. The same thing has happened to editors who work at FAC and FAR. (I'm not an admin, never want to be an admin, try to avoid RfA at all costs as I don't like to witness crucifixions, and can't opine on Republitarian and all his socks, but I should say I'm chagrined that I defended his edits to some articles, as I failed to recognize the socks; which only makes me further appreciate editors who have to do the hard chores, and still do them with diplomacy and tact.) Sandy 17:30, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Mackensen is I believe referring to a recent RfA in which a candidate got hammered for having mentioned banning as an enforcement mechanism. I also endorse. JoshuaZ 06:02, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

This sounds entirely fair. — Dan | talk 03:39, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Ban. --Tony Sidaway 03:41, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Ban. No need for this.Voice-of-All 03:50, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

(ec) I agree; Freestylefrappe has been given several chances to rectify. Until he promises to do so (and actually does it), we've had enough. Thanks. Flcelloguy (A note?) 03:42, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Yyyyy is now indef. blocked. User:Zoe|(talk) 03:42, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I heartily endorse this product or service. Ever since he was desysopped, he has shown little desire to redeem himself. --Deathphoenix ʕ 03:54, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I endorse it too. I tried to help him avoid it, as many others did, and he has only repaid it with, as Daniel said, mockery. It saddens me greatly as I feel I failed utterly in the efforts I made to prevent this. But I'm afraid it's time. He isn't going to change now. --Guinnog 04:25, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Although I am not an admin, I endorse the block/ban/ on this user. While constructive criticism of Misplaced Pages is good (and, of course, constructive), mocking Misplaced Pages for personal ends is unfathomable. And gaming the community's patience is intolerable. --physicq210 05:28, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Endorse a ban altogether of his accounts and IP addresses if they are static. His disruptive behavior with the sockpuppets has to stop. I wouldn't have endorsed a ban of a former administrator before, and probably won't again, but he crossed my line when he used sockpuppets at my RFA while he was still an admin. Besides, he's recently proven that he can't be trusted to stay at one account, mind WP:CIVIL or WP:NPA, and all his edits since his desysopping have been troubling. I wouldn't shed a tear at this loss.. — Moe Epsilon 05:40 September 17 '06

Ban, and block any IP he brags from. --Golbez 05:43, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

This user has thousands of good edits under his belt. I know he can be aggravating, and the socks certainly do violate policy, but I'm not sure a ban on Freestylefrappe is really in Misplaced Pages's best interest. User:Ya ya ya ya ya ya's got close to 1,000 good edits in less than a month. I don't think I'm a soft touch; I blocked user:"new user" when it was clear it was FSF's latest sock account. At the same time, I don't feel a community ban is in the best interest of Misplaced Pages, at least in terms of article space. I'm pretty sure I'm in the minority here, so I'll step off my soap-box... Firsfron of Ronchester 05:51, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

We have blocked good users before because their bad eventually outweighed their good. The case in point will always be Wik. And even worse than Wik, FSF was someone that was given the community's trust and abused it. --Golbez 06:12, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't refute anything you've said, Golbez. Firsfron of Ronchester 06:19, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

While I agree that a ban is in perfect order, I would like to add a small comment, if it's ok. This is a sad day for wikipedia. We should always feel bad when a former administrator is indef-banned. It truly is a sad day Oskar 05:56, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it is a sad day that the deficient voting process we have to give people sysop status let such a bad apple through. --Golbez 06:12, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Want some vinegar on that chip? As above, FSF has a mass of good edits under his belt. Adminship is supposed to be no big deal, right? If the process never made any mistakes whatsoever I reckon it would be an indication that it was too restrictive. As it stands we have what has been characterised as "arbitrary demands for shrubberies" in RFA, as a result of which many excellent editors are not given the tools; this is to my mind a worse problem than the very occasional mistake. This being a wiki, all mistakes can be remedied. My greatest regret here is not that FSF was an admin and was desysopped, it's that we can't think of a process which will allow him to continue contributing, and allow us to limit the problems his editing sometimes causes. William Pietri has some thoguhts about this which he's raised on my Talk page, but we don't have a proposal yet. Even clue-based adminship is not going to work with FSF because it essentially means that every edit has to be watched, and that is simply too much work. Ultimately, FSF has to respect consensus - and given that he apparently doesn't, the consequences are probably inevitable. Guy 08:32, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

• Deckiller's law strikes again. — Deckiller 06:50, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

So... he stopped using the Ya ya ya ya ya ya account and started using the EFG account exclusively... and therefor he was in violation of the ArbCom ruling that he only use one account? How exactly? He even said that he was switching accounts. Does the ArbCom ruling require that he identify the new account? It doesn't say so, but I suppose it could be taken as implied. Even then... he sent me an e-mail about switching to EFG. Unfortunately, I've been away / had very limited wiki-time since Tuesday and missed the latest brouhaha. Was he required to post public notification? For some reason he's gotten the idea that there are people here who don't like him and would bother or block him if they knew what account he was using. --CBD 08:34, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes and edits like this of course show his absoulte sincerity in just wanting to be left alone to get on editing. --pgk 11:54, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

And yet, I who do not like or dislike him, strongly dislike the fact that he has edited under all these accounts, without being open about what he is doing until challenged, and using edit summaries like "Guess who's switching accounts? Guess. Guess. Guess. Guess. Guess. Guess. Guess. Guess." I think it might be good for him to have a long rest from editing. It would certainly be good for Misplaced Pages. He claims to think that "most if not all administrators on Misplaced Pages are worthless, destructive elements" (). I think he has never recovered from the desysop, which I agree is terribly sad, but I also think we have better things to do than hand-hold someone who shows so little commitment to, or respect for, the goals of the project, or to consensus. He has been treated very fairly by the community, and has repaid it with contempt. --Guinnog 11:58, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

What we asked him to do was pick one account and use it. He picked yyyyyy but then switched to a new account. He then used his anonymity to mess with someone's RfA. That is what brought him to our attention. I propose he start over and pick one account to use now that he knows we are serious. He is welcome to email me regarding this. Fred Bauder 12:21, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

That sounds good to me. I'm not going to play the guess-the-new-account game, but if we find problems with the new account and it turns out to be FSF up to the tricks he's engaged in in the past, then I will be unlikely to be very forgiving. FSF seems to want drama. If so, he can go away. If what he wants is a quiet life, then he should just register a new account, let Fred know what it is, and go about his business. And for the record WP:TE was actually largely inspired by the actions of another editor entirely. Guy 13:33, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

What's the point of the guess-the-new-account game, anyway? From the comments cited by Guinnog above the intention seems to be little more than to troll people. I'd definitely go along with Fred's suggestion. -- ChrisO 14:03, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Several people have said how 'sad' this all is, but what gets to me is how little effort people put into understanding why it happened. Oh well, he's just a 'bad disruptive user'... block and move on... nothing to see here. That's the sad part. Because, absent understanding of how and why... I can guarantee you that it will happen again. Consider that FSF's 'anti-Misplaced Pages' activity which kicked off this two week meltdown was an attempt to uphold WP:BLP on Vicente Fox (small problem of a paragraph about how lots of people think he is a racist - with zero references)... and then ponder how we got from there to here. --CBD 15:10, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

The fact is though, you and I and many people have tried to enforce BLP and other policies but haven't done so by describing ourselves as "admin-hating" and so on, using 5 sockpuppets, and ending it all with ourselves community banned for (among other things) taunting everyone on AN/I. Sure, a lot of people oppose FSF out of spite... but he did do something to generate all that ill-will, it just didn't appear out of thin air. It's time for him to accept some responsibility for the fact that so many people are upset with him, rather than just continue to escalate the situation as if he's perfectly innocent. If he just said "Okay, I've screwed up, but no one disputes I do make a ton of good edits... can we just start from square one and I won't go around provoking people?" I know I'd forgive him if he followed through on his end. --W.marsh 15:18, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

The 'sockpuppet' issue is a bit of a red-herring. People associate all kinds of negative behaviours with the term 'sock puppet' which do not apply here. There was no 'multiple voting', 'joint editing', et cetera. He changed accounts because he believed he would receive unfair treatment if people knew who he was. Untrusting, but not particularly nefarious. As to the other, he did apologize for his actions on Talk:Vicente Fox... but it was reverted. Presumably because of the rant at the end against admins (specifically including me) who had not removed the comments about him being a 'fascist dictator'. Personally, I'd rather if people had not reverted virtually every edit he made after getting unblocked. So he called me impotent and/or ignorant... that's ok. I'm a big boy. I can take it. When all your edits are reverted it isn't "paranoid" to think that you'd be better off switching to another account. --CBD 20:27, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

CBD, this started back in December, at the very least, when he suddenly started accusing other admins of sockpuppetry and vandalism. There was no substance to these allegations, nor did he even attempt to provide any. When questioned, he responds in a rage and with a new flurry of accusations. His behavior borders on paranoid and it's impossible to reason with him. Go back and read the original arbitration case which led to his desysopping. His behavior has not changed since then. Mackensen (talk) 15:30, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Mackensen, I'm very familiar with his behaviour and the case. I was asked to participate in it - by both sides. Yes, he has a big problem with civility. But no... I don't think that calling him "paranoid" is justified - or helpful. --CBD 20:27, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry but at least part of his disruption on Vicente Fox was his bizarre insistance that WP:RS means that only English language sources can be considered reliable for well known people. He edit warred on statements which had reliable sources and indeed still exist in that article today. Just saying you are upholding WP:BLP (when in this case it was at best a wild misinterpretation of policy) is not an excuse for edit warring, attacks on other users etc. etc. Reading the general tone of his comments, they come across as little more than trolling, if as a result of that people get fed up and treat him as nothing more than a troll, then sorry I have little sympathy for him. --pgk 15:39, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd be interested for you to point out the claims of racism in that. --pgk 15:51, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Obviously I was referring to other sections -> . The argument that this text did not violate WP:BLP perhaps led to his being less trusting of the good intentions of other editors on the BLP issue than he should have been. Though the fact that it was restored, sans references, after he was blocked might also indicate that he wasn't so wrong about that. For the link you provided I'd imagine the objection was probably over using a spanish language reference for the claim that Fox's second marriage was religiously controversial. Is 'La Crisis' a reliable source? I dunno. In any case, while WP:RS allows foreign language sources in limited circumstances I'm thinking that was probably not intended for extensive use in a major article / to address possible BLP issues. --CBD 20:27, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

So his experience with other text and other editors (I had no other involvment with that article and none I remember with him), makes it reasonable for him to edit war, put people on his "black list" (for want of a better word), jump up and down about arbcom action etc. That's a great way for him to drive off good faith editors and did he deserve to be picked up on it and blocked, absolutley. As to the interpretation of WP:RS allowing foreign language sources in limited circumstances, I suggest you reread it, it allows foreign langauge sources as being every bit as reliable as English language sources in every circumstance "However, foreign-language sources are acceptable in terms of verifiability, subject to the same criteria as English-language sources.". It expresses a preference for the readers convenience and indeed if he had sources in English I doubt anyone would have complained if the links were changed. As someone else pointed out the idea that sources in Spanish for the leader of a Spanish speaking country should universally (as was his contention) be considered unreliable is ludicrous. --pgk 20:51, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

CBD: My problem is that the EFG account and the promises to continue with that sort of thing are about 5000 miles outside of being within the rather obvious (I think) spirit of the Arbcom addendum. I don't even care about the specifics of his latest conflicts: it's the pattern that matters. I am curious, if he emailed you and disclosed his new name, why did you (and he) let the misinformation stand in Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Freestylefrappe about User:Ya ya ya ya ya ya having been chosen as the single account? —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 16:47, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

As I said, I haven't been around much for the past several days - as you know since you said the same in your e-mail to me. Why he didn't say anything seems obvious... he believes that he was being mistreated / would not be allowed to edit in peace. You can disagree that was a reasonable inference to draw from the mass reversion of his edits, but it's clearly what he thought. --CBD 20:27, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Support ban ... and for the love of God CBD, please stop being contrary just for the sake of being contrary. It's really irritating reading WP:ANI when, every week, you're the only one attempting to defend various and sundry banned trolls. --Cyde Weys 17:10, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

No. I don't do anything "for the sake of being contrary" and I won't stop trying to get people to look at the ways in which admin behaviour influences user behaviour just because you find it "really irritating". Back when the ArbCom case was filed against Freestylefrappe I was asked to get involved. I didn't want to, because in truth I'm not a big fan myself. But I did, and now you're stuck with me because it doesn't do anyone any good when we goad users into complete meltdowns with false statements, uneven blocks, snarky comments, et cetera. We're supposed to be the calm / level-headed / 'tough' ones... so why is it always like sharks with blood in the water? Maybe there's nothing which can be done... he'd be angry and disruptive even if he received perfectly fair and polite treatment. But he hasn't... so we really don't know that. And can't place the blame entirely on him. --CBD 20:27, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

CBD didn't explicitly refute the ban proposal, he just disagreed with the way that it is being handled. The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 17:17, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

And he wasn't the only one in support of allowing FSF to continue editing if he picks a new account and lets someone (e.g. Fred) know what it is, and then just goes quietly about his business. Mind, had he doen this with the several other blocked accounts we'd not have noticed that they were FSF, but it is true enough that he has made very many good edits in the past. Guy 17:48, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. He always manages to find something to complain about. And in the end, he always ends up causing more strife than it's worth. --Cyde Weys 17:50, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Sadly (sorry CBD!), you are right. I totally sympathise with CBD and JzG trying to let FSF edit in peace under a new account. I don't think either of them is being "contrary just for the sake of being contrary". I would be as happy as anyone if he was able to just get on with things, I just think he has shown himself incapable of that, or of showing any real appreciation of the amount of trouble he has (seemingly gratuitously) caused. By consistently getting involved in controversy under each of his new accounts, he has certainly exhausted my patience, if not the community's. I agree he has made good edits, which is why I tried to support him in the past. I just think the ratio has been in the wrong direction for a while now, and shows no good prognosis of improving. I'm not saying I'm sad about that in any rhetorical sense, I am genuinely sad that we cannot support this talented editor better than we have. However, I think we have done what we can at this point and the onus is on FSF to demonstrate reformed behaviour, and I just don't see evidence of that. --Guinnog 18:10, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Just for the record, I didn't block Yayayayaya for being a sock puppet, but for the trolling, disruption and general all-around assholiness. User:Zoe|(talk) 19:21, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

And people wonder why I say admins provoke this kind of behaviour. --CBD 20:27, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I do wonder. I wonder at whether you think before you post. I wonder if you've ever been trolled in your life. I wonder if you have a gram of sense. You've been ignoring everything that's said to you, because if read the arbitration case you'd see that I, for one example, was made a target of his vitriol out of nowhere. I did nothing to him, and he made it his mission to make my life hell. From this day forward I won't respond to you CBD. If you leave notes on my talk page I'll revert them. You clearly have no respect for anyone here unless they've managed to anger another admin, in which case they're obviously on the side of truth and have been wronged. Mackensen (talk) 20:33, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I've reached the point with CBD where I can no longer see any validity in his opinions, and though I won't ignore him by reverting him, I'm not going to be putting any stock into anything he says, either. --Cyde Weys 20:58, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

You guys need to chill out. —Nate Scheffey 21:08, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Here, here. "I will never speak to you again"-type posts aren't going to help matters. Firsfron of Ronchester 21:16, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Fuck you. I'm tired of CBD showing up in these forums and acting like it's all the evil sysops fault. FSF brought this on himself and hurt a good many people in the process. I'm angry, and I'm not the only one. CBD can troll here all he wants, ignoring facts and taking quotes out of context, but no one can force me to listen the same tired bullshit over and over. I have been polite. I have pointed him in the direction of pertinent information. I have been patient. All to no avail. I tried reasoning with FSF many times–this only aggravated matters. I hope that if you gentlemen ever find yourselves in a similar situation you'll find someone willing to take your part. Mackensen (talk) 21:20, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Wow. Seriously chill the fuck out. —Nate Scheffey 21:49, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

We can do without your profanity. We are here to discuss whether FSF should be banned by the community, not to voice your grievances about CBD. And we are definitely not here to see you spurn other's efforts to cool down the situation. --physicq210 21:28, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I can do without CBD's trolling. If we're going to cool down the situation, we could start with the two gentlemen above allowing saying something substantive. When someone's obviously angry and has a real grievance, a pithy one-liner is not calculated to "cool down" the situation. Quite the opposite in fact. Mackensen (talk) 21:34, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I know that you have problems with CBD. But starting your response with "fuck you" won't help you either. --physicq210 21:39, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

And can we get back to the topic here, which is deciding whether FSF should be banned? The discussion is starting to drift off... --physicq210 21:41, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Woah. I've dealt with trolls, angry users, and the like. No one's ever dropped the F-bomb on me for a 2-sentence comment. Especially not someone I respected and liked. Thanks. Firsfron of Ronchester 21:45, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

It brought me no pleasure, but I'd been pushed to the breaking point by CBD's last remark there. I regret having said it in that it detracts from my position and makes me look foolish, to say nothing of the disrespect it suggests. At the time, it's an artifact of how angry I was thirty minutes ago. Mackensen (talk) 21:52, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

It's not "I'll never speak to you again," it's, "I have no faith in your judgement." There's a huge difference between the two. Once someone realizes that a significant number of people no longer have faith in their judgement, maybe they will start reconsidering their actions. --Cyde Weys 21:30, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I understand that FSF has wounded the feeligs and exhausted the patience of many editors, and has often behaved unbecomingly; but as an editor who has worked a lot with him in developing WikiProject Chad, I feel I should speak of all the good work he has done as an editor, countering systemic bias that, as well known, is rampant in Africa, and countries like Chad more than other African countries. I feel that if we consider the good and the bad, the good, in the sense of useful and valuable contributions to the encyclopedia, is far bigger. For this I advocate leniency, and doubt a ban would be in the best interest of the project.--Aldux 20:58, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, Aldux. Firsfron of Ronchester 21:16, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Incivility on Talk:Muhammad

quite recently there has been a constant stream of editors who are mistaking the talk page of Muhammad for a forum and their personal soapbox, while these comments are not conducive to improving the article at all. here are a sample of diffs (from within the last day or two, although there are other examples stretching back such as ), some of which are in the form of attacking "Muslim" editors as "religious zealots" "campaigning" to "hijack the wikipedia page in the name of Allah", others are as verbose denounciations/defences of Muhammad which i believe is a total misuse of what the talk page of an article is for: .

if an admin could step in and take some sort of action about this then i, as well as the rest of the editors who wish to work collegially on the article, would be very grateful. thank you! ITAQALLAH 06:24, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm on it. El_C 08:18, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

TharkunColl (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) seems to be actively trolling the talk page, and his own user talk page indicates a continuing history of problem behaviour. This user will need some watching, I think. -- ChrisO 14:12, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Anyone willing to check Tharkuncoll´s contribution history would surely realise this user has got a very long history of inflamatory comments (refer to Falkland islands and English people for examples)--Asterion 14:36, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Mitsos

It's been brought to my attention that this self-proclaimed White nationalist has been editing disruptively on Pontian Greek Genocide. For example, I note his comment that "...it's a historical fact. The Pontian Genocide did happen and 'll better admit it" (bold in the original), which far from advances civil discourse. I left the user a warning on their talk page, but I would appreciate anyone else looking into the matter. El_C 08:10, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Being a self-proclaimed white nationalist isn't in and of itself an offense (as offensive as it is), but judge solely on the nature of their edits. I have no opinion on this user's edits, if they are disruptive, then block him for that. User:Zoe|(talk) 19:22, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

User:MarkThomas's offensive comments

Offensive comments and attacks made by User:MarkThomas at Talk:London#Largest city in EU. Some particularly offensive comments include:

• What we have here could be a long running emphatic anti-English and anti-London bias and POVery thinly dressed up as factual controversy, from French and other continentals with a chronic inferiority complex. ()
• London is at least 40% bigger than Paris. Not only that, but people have jobs there and actually go to work, as opposed to just rioting in the streets and screwing their secretaries. ()

Hardouin 14:47, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Geez, who knew that Basil Fawlty was alive and well and editing Misplaced Pages. Anchoress 17:55, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps it's funny, but it's nonetheless offensive to other people and should not be allowed on Misplaced Pages. Would you allow the behavior of someone making fun of the Shoah on Misplaced Pages talk pages? Checking into MarkThomas's contributions history, I also found out that this user's scornful and offensive language is nothing new. He seems to particularly despise Paris, as these past edits show:

• In an message on March 3, 2006 (), one can find, among other niceties: " I think the global cities page on Misplaced Pages is in error as actually cities like Montreal, Sydney and Mumbai all have a better claim to be world cities now than does poor isolated and declinining Paris."
• In a message on February 14, 2006 (), he argues that French people are "obsessed" by the issue of whether London is larger than Paris (first time I hear about such French national obsession!), and he states that his personal research has undeniably proven that London is much larger than Paris.

Probably the most bizarre of all is this message which he left on February 15, 2006 () and in which he claims that the British government grossly underestimate the population of the UK. Says he: "I also decided the total popn of the UK at any one time is at least 70m not roughly 60 as given in official figures." Apparently, this is the result a major government conspiracy: "I think the UK Govt know about this but don't tell people as it would stir up claims of incompetence." Now that is really something, isn't it! Hardouin 18:31, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

User conduct RfC

Probably someone is already aware of this, but just in case not, I urge admin monitoring to avoid a potential pile-on situation at Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment/Alastor_Moody. User:Alastor Moody has apparently been making problematic contributions to hurricane-related articles for a number of months and has not responded well to warnings, so there appears to be ample basis for an RfC, although I haven't evaluated all the edits. However, as self-described on his user page, this user is 12 years old. I agree with the general rule that younger users join the fray and take their lumps with the rest of us, but in this situation we may want to make sure that this sound principle isn't taken too far. (Alastor Moody is not a real name, so that's not an issue.) Just a thought. Newyorkbrad 14:47, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

User: J.R. Hercules

He has taken away warnings by me and user:Chacor. After that Glen_S (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) also put a warning on his talkpage saying for him to stop. He then responded on Glen's talkpage. See User:Glen_S#Your_edits_and_threats_on_my_pageUser_talk:J.R._Hercules and Special:Contributions/J.R._Hercules. Hello32020 15:01, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

See also. – Chacor 15:10, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

He had previously deleted my {{npa2}}, along with a whole bunch of other notices by other people, that I did not revert because I was still hoping that he would have a decent discussion. He has now told me "Do Not Edit Other's Discussion Pages"--Konstable 21:34, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Amrykid and User:BrainiacOutcast

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression that this is an encyclopedia. These two users have about 900 edits between them, about 13 of them being to mainspace . All they really do here is dress up their userpages and have conversations on each other's talk pages. Since I removed fair use images from Amrykid's userpage a short while ago, I've had the pleasure of eavesdropping on such fascinating conversations. You are smell like a but head, deven moves tommarow and you have to teach him to be a ninja(naruto), im going to the ymca today, There's a B-day party. Meet me outside when you come on Sat, Are you coming today, When are you coming to the YMCA? maybe tuesday. WP:NOT a social networking site and all that. I dunno what action (if anything) anyone wants to take. -- Steel 17:07, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Attack on Senordigndong

Please see the attack under You are a bloody moron. It's not nice, it was obviously in the heat of the moment, but it seems not to be regretted. Would someone be kind enough to pop over to the user who vented his spleen and drop him a hint about community scrutiny, please? Fiddle Faddle 17:58, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

leaked confidential information on TUS Project

I've been told by 68.100.88.213 (talk · contribs), Sukecchi (talk · contribs), and Megaman3 (talk · contribs) that the TUS Project article contains illegally obtained information. How should this issue be dealt with? Thanks. --Ixfd64 19:35, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

For starters, anything that can't be verifiably sourced, which looks like most of it, should be removed. Dragons flight 19:39, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

What Dragon Flight said. If they have any specific issues that they think revolve around serious legal issues they should probably discuss it with WP:OTRS or the more legal savy admins. Possibly difs may need to be deleted. JoshuaZ 19:41, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I've stripped down the page and semi-protected it to prevent the anons from reposting the disputed content for now. Dragons flight 20:19, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

CFIF removiong content from WTSP news team and WTVT news team

CFIF (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

• Keeps removing biographic content from WTSP news team and WTVT news team. Borox 19:59, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Borox,

I looked through the history of WTSP news team, and it appears you have violated Misplaced Pages's policy on 3RR. You reverted to your version four times. We have talk pages for discussion of these issues. I'm also going to post this to your talk page.

Firsfron of Ronchester 21:02, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

You've broken WP:3RR on the other page, too. Firsfron of Ronchester 21:10, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Cliesthenes edits to WP:MOSBIO and other articles

Cliesthenes has been editing the WP:MOSBIO guideline (and getting into some revert wars with other editors on it) and then using the edited guideline as justification for her edits on WP:BLP articles like Lance Bass, Anne Heche, Esera Tuaolo, César Chávez among others. A variety of editors have disagreed with some of these edits for other policy reasons. I am concerned about this action of changing a policy and then using those changes to disregard other editor's concerns--especially considering the delicate nature of WP:BLP in general. I appreciate your time and attention in this matter. Agne 21:28, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Lets indef User:Edipedia

Currently blocked for 2 weeks (block has been restarted twice), this user is rampantly creating socks over the last few weeks. For such blatant abuse, why don't we just make this indefinite.--Konstable 21:31, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

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