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capture or arrest?

"Arrest" is the israeli line. However, Marwan Barghouti was CAPTURED in ramalla. Israel has no right of arrest within the Occupied territories. It's like saying the New York Police Department "arrested" a russian member of parliament in MOSCOW.

If I was like you zionists, I would change it to "kidnap". Whenever someone captures an israeli soldier you zionists call it "kidnap" right? So it's only fair this is called a "kidnapping". However, I know it should stay as "captured" because I, unlike you, have some objectivity.

Rm uk 15:46, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

You need to learn some international law. As the occupying power in the territories, Israel has not only a right, but an obligation, to maintain civil order through police functions. It arrested Barghouti, as the cited source (the BBC, no less) says. Isarig 17:52, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

And under the same international law, the occupied people have the right to resist the "occupying power". At least that's the excuse my uncle Hector gave when he was caught drawing mustaches on portraits of Golda Meir... Ramallite 19:16, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Indeed they do, but not by attacking civilians, which is what Barghouti was arrested for, charged with, tried for, and convicted of. He is a common criminal, arrested by law enforcement agencies, tried by a civilian court for murder, and serving his life sentence for that crime. Isarig 23:13, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

it is an illegal occupation. thus capture not arrest... anyway the PLO policed that area at the time... Rm uk 23:59, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

You are welcome to your POV, but international law holds a different opinion. Regardless, the 4th Geneva convention, which governs the occupying power's rights and obligations has no concept of an "illegal occupation" - it is a propaganda term invented by pro-Palestinian partisans. The PLO has no policing powers. Perhasp you man the Palestinian Authority. Isarig 00:06, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Rm uk 01:07, 30 August 2006 (UTC) says: the PA has policing powers in the Occupied Territories. And "illegal occupation" is not a propaganda term. UN resolution (cant remember the number now) calls for israel to withdraw from all land gained in the 67 war. Thus illegal.

The UNSCR resolution you are reffering to calls for Israel to withdraw for territories it captured (not "all, as you mistakingly wrote) in conjunction with the end of hostilities and the recognition of Israel's secure borders (i.e, a peace agreement) by its neighbors. This does not make the occupation illegal, and that term is not used in the resolution. Regardless, as I pointed out to you, the 4GC has no such concept, making this entire debate moot. Isarig 03:24, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

the PA is meant to control the occupied territories, it's in Oslo. I personally think Oslo was a pile of crap. But, that is not relevant. Oslo was signed by both parties. Why did israel always ask the palestinian authority to "clamp down on militants"? Why are their palestinian police? Because they police the West Bank, Gaza... and the rest. Hence "captured".

The fact that the PA has policing powers does not mean Israel does not have the same. The PA's authority stems from Oslo, Israel's from it's status as an occupying power. The occupying power may request assitance form local police, but that does not negate its own authority. Isarig 03:24, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure it is "capture" however, I added a little piece as a comprimise (I let it stay as "arrest") that any reasonable person would accept Rm uk 04:36, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Birthday

• I have seen several different birth dates (ranging from 1958 to 1960 and different days on those years, June 5, June 8, etc). What is the practice in this situation? 128.12.72.6 05:01, 22 May 2004 (UTC)
  • Seems to me we can try listing out links which support each different date and decide based on that. GiantSloth 22:01, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
    • June 6, 1959
      1. CNN
      2. Washington Times
    • 1959 (year only)
      1. Al Jazeerah

• Ha, it seems one of his brothers name is Muqbal Barghouti, any one know how many brothers and sisters he has?

He's only allegedly "guilty" because he's innocent until proven guilty in a legitimate court of law. That does not include a Jewish kangaroo-court Sanhedrin, which only needed Caiaphas to be complete.

This is anti-Semitic crap

Rm uk 15:40, 29 August 2006 (UTC) says: the old slur of anti-semitism. If israel committed genocide of all the palestinians then you guys would still say it was anti semitic to criticise.

My comments

I should probably explain why I reverted this article yesterday, and why I've added a sentence now.

The article currently reads, "He is currently serving five life sentences in an Israeli jail for murder and attempted murder." This statement is both accurate and NPOV. The phrase "Murder and attempted murder" refers to a legal conviction -- it makes no comment on the accuracy of the charges, nor on the validity of the legal process under which the trial occurred.

The word "allegedly" is pretty obviously POV in this context; it needed to be removed, as such.

That said, it is also my position that the article's introduction should make reference to the controversial nature of Barghouti's prison sentence. To this end, I have added the statement "Barghouti's supporters believe that these charges were politically motivated, and consider him a political prisoner". This statement, like the one before it, is NPOV -- it makes no comment on the accuracy of these claims, and merely notes that they have been raised in the field of public discourse.

If anyone believes this to be flawed logic, I'm willing to entertain objections. CJCurrie 22:39, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I don't doubt the NPOV, but perhaps something along the lines of "jailed by an Israeli court" rather than serving "in an Israeli jail" might show this more objectively. - 69.140.65.251 23:47, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Aren't convictions always controversial, at least by the standards of the convicted persons if they claim to be innocent? gidonb 01:29, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Of course his supporters deny everything. No Palestinian ever did anything. But I respect your NPOV dedication, but you left out the number of dead. I believe it was 28. ScottAdler 06:28, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

supporters means fellow terrorists and I don't think one should take it too seriously. I've addred the Israeli claim which was backed by public evidence. Amoruso

Do you have any evidence that "supporters means fellow terrorists"? The government of Israel's claims can be referenced in the main body of the article, but it doesn't belong in the intro. CJCurrie 06:20, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Second intifada

The bit about him discerning military and civilian target is interesting but is there a source for this?

indeed. that should be referenced or deleted...

"Campaign to Free Marwan Barghouti"

the immunity claim is false in international law. Palestine is not a country and the members of their parliament don't have any immunity what-so-ever according to the relevant convenants in question. Amoruso 23:15, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

yeh thats the problem, zionist denial of palestinian right of self determination Rm uk

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 23:34, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

"Palestine"

Since wikipedia is neutral shouldn't this article be under Israel —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.197.224.214 (talk) 00:12, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

What prison?

Is there an information? Eynbein (talk) 14:31, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

honestreporting

See here. This is an unsuitable source. Disregarding the 1RR violation, it should be removed for that reason alone. This is still, last I checked, a BLP. In fact, the sourcing for "Palestinian Mandela" could be improved on, citing this (thanks honestreporting ;)), could also use that for "while many Israelis consider him a murderer". But honestreporting cannot be used. nableezy - 18:49, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Uri Avnery is an unsuitable, partial, bias and unreliable source for many people (come on! he's just an anti-Zionist/pro-Palestinian activist, representing a tiny minority among Israelis) like Honest Reporting is unsuitable for you. Besides, Honest Reporting is not the only organization who doesn't consider Barghouti a "Palestinian Mandela" (for example read what Almagor thinks, an Israeli organization for victims of terror). If Honest Reporting is removed, then Uri Avnery should be removed as well.--Farkur (talk) 19:03, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

If you would like to argue that Uri Avnery should not be cited then make that argument. Do not however add continue adding unreliable sources to biographies of living people, as you did here. nableezy - 12:27, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Why is Avnery's view notable enough to be included in the lead or in the article at all? Ankh.Morpork 13:52, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Whether or not Avnery should be included is immaterial, as it is much more than Avnery that has called Barghouti a Palestinian Mandela. I've added a more general line, sourced to this and this. I trust that ends the dispute. nableezy - 18:30, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Source misrepresentation

In this edit, Nableezy adds this source to substantiate his addition to the lead that, "He has been called "the Palestinian Mandela", in reference to anti-Apartheid leader Nelson Mandela."

The full sentence of the source reads as follows: "To judge by the same poll, only 28 per cent of Israelis want to see the prison doors swing open for the man some praise as "the Palestinian Mandela" but whom others call a murderer."

Nableezy elided the last part of this sentence which also describes what "he has been called" and selectively included a single view, contrary to NPOV. Please explain. Ankh.Morpork 19:30, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Look at the paragraph directly below the sentence in the lead. And please do not make such asinine accusations again in the future. nableezy - 19:36, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Why did you select to add this view to the first paragraph, the logical formatting would be to group the views together?Ankh.Morpork 19:54, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Because that is where it was in the past? nableezy - 19:57, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Diplomatic immunity as a member of the Palestinian Parliament

This part does not make sense, a country may choose to give diplomatic immunity to someone, generally its only for foreign affairs although not always but I can find no record that Israel has ever agreed to give diplomatic immunity in relation to the Palestinian Parliament furthermore other members of the Palestinian Parliament have been arrested and no-one brought this up. What it is, is he may have diplomatic immunity from arrest and prosecution from the PA. BernardZ (talk)

Comparison of Barghouti to Mandela in the lead

I remove this unencyclopedic sentence from the lead. "He has been called by some 'the Palestinian Mandela'."

This sentence has several problems. The sentence is fails WP:NPOV because it represents a value judgement and only shows one side. The sentence's use of analogy is not very encyclopedic, and it does not mention who "some" is. The word "some" is considered WP:WEASEL. However, in this sentence there is no way do get around using a weasel word, because clearly not all people have this view of him. It would be better to stick to verifiable facts about Barghouti, rather than reporting nebulous statements about popular opinion. OtterAM (talk) 21:31, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

Ambulance issue

The article states that "Amos Harel wrote in Haaretz that Barghouti was arrested by soldiers of the Duchifat Battalion who had approached the building hidden in an ambulance to avoid detection: "The Duchifat soldiers were squeezed into a protected ambulance in order to arrive as quickly as possible at the house where Barghouti was hiding, and to seal it off."". The source is in hebrew and the translation 'protected ambulance' is accurate. However, the text does not refer to a civilian ambulance. Protected ambulances in use by the IDF are military vehicles and are easily identifiable. There are no civilian ambulances in use by the military, a civilian Israeli ambulance would clearly not serve as a reasonable disguise in Ramallah and if it were a Palestinian ambulance some reference to this fact could clearly be expected in the article. The soldiers were squeezed into the vehicle since it was the fastest vehicle available, not as a disguise. Neither Barghouti nor any other source - be it foreign or domestic, Palestinian or Israeli - ever claimed this was the case (you are welcome to prove otherwise). This paragraph is clearly an attempt to misinterpret facts to suggest that the arrest\capture of Marwan Barghouti involved Israeli violations of the Geneva Convention through use of medical civilian vehicles, despite the absence of such claims on any side. Therefore it is a misinforming paragraph that was apparently inserted by a biased editor trying to smear the Israeli side, and as such should be corrected or removed.

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