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Killing by walking

The higly POV interpretation removed:

Another method used by the oppressors was to force the weaker population, including women and children, to walk for hundreds of kilometres until they died. This was known as the "White Death" .

It was not deliberate genocide; it was population transfer. People died, but to call it "method of genocide" is twisting POV. Such long walks happened everywhere all the time throughout human history. Mukadderat 17:20, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I have said it before for the Armenian Genocide, cause the same argument was used by specific users there as well: it was not just a population transfer! only if Turkey was ruled by 5-year-old children that time, they would not know that, when u force children, women and old people to walk in the desert endlessly, without food of water, they will die! common logic! noone has to be Einstein to see that! the ottomans and kemal knew exactly what they were doing... Hectorian 17:48, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

BTW, Mukadderat, u removed cited info, simply cause it did not fit your POV... this is not encyclopedic attitude u know... I would advice u to re-add it, and even if u don't, it will be re-added by someone else... Hectorian 17:51, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I do find validity in Hectorian's argument that when u expect people to walk so much people have a legitimate right to wonder what the real purpose is. That's one thing.. On the other hand, during the Ottoman reign such exile edicts have been used commonly by all Sultans (don't forget they were absolute divine (caliphs) monarchs), for example for the Bahaii in the 19th century. I am not saying I agree with this method of dealing with sociopolitical problems, see my first sentence. But one thing that I don't understand however, is when and where Kemal comes into this: he didn't have any real power in the Empire before 1920, and no concrete power before 1922.. I really can't imagine him finding any time, considering all the other problems in the Empire at the time, to single-handedly delve into this issue and dictating others to chase and kill Pontus Greeks.. I am not saying it is impossible, but it is highly improbable.. Power of Kemal during the first world war until 1923 is highly exaggerated even by Turks, in fact it took him until the mid-1920s before he dealt with dissent and confirmed himself as the prime power in Turkey... Even from your reasoning Hector, the prime guilty party in this is the Young Turk party and their collaborators (Ataturk was a Young Turk, but he was never in the decision-making organs of it during the said time).. Baristarim 18:43, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I feel like i touched a sensitive chord:)... (btw, i would be very very surprised if a modern turk would not support Kemal...). maybe he was not the only one making the decisions during the Sultan and Young Turks era, but he was among those, and later on he was the primary one. when i was talking about the 'White Death', perhaps Kemal had nothing to do with it, cause during the time he was in charge, 'civilian marches' were not common. but destruction of villages and labour camps were common. anyway, lets say that i never mentioned him concerning 'White Death', but i am still including him in those responsible for the event as a whole... PS: Baristarim, did u find anything about Topal Osman? Hectorian 19:08, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes you did :))) Baristarim 19:18, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

As for Topal Osman, funny that you mentioned :)) Lack of reliable academic sources.. I have made a considerable search but I am still clueless for two reasons: One, there is no real and reliable academic source that has dealt with the history and life of people like him, secondly, sites in Turkish that mention him are extremely vague at best, in the sense that in most biographies of him he is mentioned as a local independence hero and talk about how he helped suppress pro-Megali Idea Pontus Greek revolts around his native region.. As you can imagine, none of them are informative in the academic sense :)).. You will agree that both definitions in italics are extremely vague by nature.. It is sad.. They think that they are informing people but in fact they are not at all.. I am going to accept neither local independence hero nor butcher labels at face value, but I will try to find more about him in texts that mention the events of the time in a more global context.. It might take time :) Baristarim 19:38, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

As far as i am concerned, u have as much time as u want... But my question was different: what is written in the monument that Kemal's regime raised in his grave? what i know, is that it says: 'He helped a great deal in the extermination of the Pontian Greeks'. i am not asking whether his name will remain in history as a hero or as a butcher... I made a simply question, and though i found the answer in greek and english-language web pages, i cannot read the turkish ones... so, i am asking u if u can find and translate it. Hectorian 19:52, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I will have a look.. Baristarim 20:17, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Whatever you say, this is a big stretch that walking was a method of deliberate genocide. It is an allegation. Mukadderat 23:15, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Kindly read the sources first, and then make comments. There are sources linking this Pontian 'promenade' to the same method used in the Armenian genocide. •NikoSilver• 23:13, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Tags the sequel

It seems to me that some side here does not have what it takes to take this where applicable. The sources are compelling and the article is more than neutral. What is missing is the other side. Just go ahead and add it, or deal with this issue to establish consensus. As long as I don't find the argumentation convincing, I too am going to remove those tags at sight. •NikoSilver• 21:47, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

More than neutral?? Are you joking? In any case, neutrality of the article and neutrality of the title is not the same.. You are saying that you don't find the argumentation convincing, I respect your opinion, but that doesn't mean that there is no dispute.. I mean, is there really no dispute or have I been thinking about another article?? There are tons of arguments above.. Sources are compelling.. Right.. I really like the one that calls Turks baby-killers.. The tags are there because there are many people who think there is a problem with the title, not just Turks or Greeks.. The other side.. Don't worry I will add it as soon as the title is changed.. First things first.. Sources: Nowhere in the world the university or school textbooks that talk about the events of the First World War or Greek-Turkish conflicts refer to it as Pontian Greek Genocide, I am sorry I got no link for that Nikos, that ain't good enough?? :))) Baristarim 22:13, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Strange, I could have sworn that the General Assembly of the State of Pennsylvania in the USA, the 'Union against Genocide' and the 'Speaking with One Voice' organizations in Germany etc all see a genocide in those events. Anyway, you have yet to cite a source saying that no genocide took place. How are you going to convince everyone that those organizations are wrong? --Tzekai 22:30, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Mitsos, stop your sockpuppetry, vandalism and disruptive editing .. Gees, who the hell am I dealing with here???? Misplaced Pages#Criticism_and_controversy People, go push your agenda somewhere else, this is not some gang war...Baristarim 22:26, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Numerous anti-genocide organizations?? Well, you know, that Greek guy whose thesis appears in the link that is sourced (he is the only one that signed his name under those pages) was one of the founders of the Australian Institute of whatever among with five other people (one Armenian included).. That ain't impartial folks, I am not saying someone is not capable of producing good science because of his nationality, but that still doesn't make them impartial.. Well, maybe I should also create an organization called The Supreme Global Council of The Genocide, write a bunch of non-scientific arguments in one of its pages and cite it in this article?? Baristarim 22:29, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

No it's not good enough and Tzekai pointed out why above. The third sources that exist call it as such. Do you have a source that calls it otherwise? Also, I understand why you don't want to add the Turkish POV. It's simply moot, and ofcourse you wouldn't like that to be exposed, so that you can continue harrassing the article with these templates. Side note: edit conflicts (twice now) with you are impossible to avoid - kindly post your edits one by one as mostly everyone. There's a button called 'preview'. •NikoSilver• 22:31, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah I got one, I am going to repeat it until it gets through: The school and university textbooks of the whole world that talk about the events of the First World War and Greek-Turkish conflicts.. Got no link for that one, I am afraid :)) I will add the Turkish side of the story as soon as the title issue is resolved, otherwise you are expecting me to go along with this minority agenda pushing when you ask me come on, contribute!!, ha ha, very funny - don't expect me to legitimize this article's title by asking me to add the Turkish POV.. We r both not stupid... Baristarim 23:15, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

AS for the US States, what a joke... Mississippi had a law that said it is ok to kill a Mormon until it was revoked in the 70s. Most of those states also have the death penalty, so much for democracy that I wonder how democratic they really r. I lived in the States, I know how f..-up agenda pushing can be in a state.. 6 out of 50.. Well, good luck.. I mean it is not even half :))).. In any case that is completely irrelevant since individual states don't determine foreign policy, they can pass anything they want - the only sovereign country that has recognized is Greece, not even Cyprus has recognized it (they are looking for a solution with Turkey to the Cyprus dispute, eh?? - funny that they recognize the Armenian Genocide, so much for looking for an improved dialogue) Baristarim 23:15, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Who do the hell are Union against Genocide and Speaking with One Voice anyways? There are millions of NGO out there.. Whatever.. Baristarim 23:18, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

These are still sources that recognise the event and call it 'Genocide'. We are not in the Hague or the UN here. Cite a source calling it otherwise, or disputing its existence. •NikoSilver• 23:22, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

There are many people who call God an asshole, Bush a terrorist, their girlfriends the most beautiful woman on earth etc.. That doesn't mean that they are serious and reliable academic research.. It is such a minority opinion held by some Greeks (and some loony non-Greeks) that what happened was a Genocide, that there are no anti-theses.. As for my sources: yeah I got one, I am going to repeat it until it gets through: The school and university textbooks of the whole world that talk about the events of the First World War and Greek-Turkish conflicts Baristarim 23:34, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

No there aren't as many, plus there is anti-thesis for those. As per your repetition, I thought you should have figured out already that most schools and universities have (a) libraries containing many of those sources (b) probably cite these incidents. So I suggest you find one that cites them and calls them eg. "Pontian Greek UFO abduction". •NikoSilver• 00:07, 25 September 2006 (UTC)