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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:North American English regional phonology#Midland as part of Southern (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Wolfdog (talk · contribs)
• LakeKayak (talk · contribs)
• Emykp (talk · contribs)
• Klaxonfan (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Hello. Some editors feel (myself included) that, on the page North American English regional phonology, certain dialects of English should be grouped under the section "Southeastern United States" or "Southeastern super-region", following discoveries of the Atlas of North American English (ANAE), perhaps the most respected publication in the field. Other editors, however, disagree. Myself and others clearly see that this disagreement is based more on a "just don't like it" personal feeling than on any actual sources. The one source provided by the opposition is a YouTube video of a talk by the primary author of the ANAE itself, in which he simply doesn't mention the Southeastern super-region. They are making the logical leap that his lack of discussing the super-region in this one particular video is somehow evidence that he no longer believes in the existence of the super-region. This is an absurd leap. Meanwhile, Labov's ANAE clearly spells out the existence of the super-region; we have presented this writing to the other editors, but they don't seem to care to read through them. One editor has solicited several other editors in the hopes of "winning" the discussion by a majority vote, despite any real evidence being presented for their side. Myself and another continue to address the fallacies in their argumentation, but the discussion is becoming more and more circular. Respectfully, I worry that my opponents are simply not listening to reason.

Just got an article called "One hundred years of sound change in Philadelphia: Linear incrementation, reversal, and reanalysis" out of my files, in which Labov again refers to the Southeastern super-region, this time as recently as 2013. Further evidence that it remains a valid concept. Wolfdog (talk) 22:00, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

Volunteers, how should this proceed? Should I be responding to the other users' summaries? They seem to be bringing up arguments that I've countered in the past, in some cases strawman arguments. I appreciate everyone's civility. Now, what's the next step we should take? Wolfdog (talk) 03:41, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Myself and LakeKayak have presented our sources to other discussants, but they do not seem to be reading them.

How do you think we can help?

Please help us determine, is this really a fair discussion? Am I right in my assessment that one side is using a very credible source while the other is appealing only to personal feelings?

Summary of dispute by LakeKayak

The debate came down to whether or not "Southeast super-region" should be used. The term was used in the Atlas of North American English referring to the Midland and Southern American dialect regions with a few other dialects. Two users seem to have attempted to use a video lecture from Labov as evidence that the "Southeast super-region" is not an appropriate term and the concept of super-regions should not be used. Here are the exact words from one of the users.

• "Being from the mid-Atlantic region myself, I think it's stupid to have this super regions stuff."

While I don't have a problem with the word "stupid", I think to call a concept "stupid" is to say "it just doesn't work for me". This violates the policy WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT.

On the other hand, Wolfdog and I have been trying to argue that the term "Southeast super-region" is not an original concept. If it were a concept that we created on Misplaced Pages, then I could understand how using the concept would violate WP:ORIGINAL. However, as it was a concept coined by a well-respected scholar in the field, I fail to see why it is not safe to use this concept.LakeKayak (talk) 21:32, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Emykp

I'm going by some of the videos that were posted by a user named "BreakDanceSimon" This University interview https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCJh8nFXBUE&feature=youtu.be&t=1h1m17s by Labov, who states that it's North, Midland and South." He does so here as well, in the same interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCJh8nFXBUE&feature=youtu.be&t=1h1m51s In another interview with David Parkman, with over 1.5 million views: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aL0--f89Qds&feature=youtu.be&t=16s Labov goes on to say there are 15 dialects in the US. but then breaks it down like this for super regions - "While there is however a distinction between the North, the Midland in between, and the South" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aL0--f89Qds&feature=youtu.be&t=1m3s - Labov goes on to say iowa is and area (which is part of midlands) that is missing some of the marked features of the north, northeast or south. All these videos are from the 2013. These interviews were given after ANAE, which was released in 2006. I think all of these add up that Midland is separate from a north, or south type system. Just my take. I'd also like to add one last thing to this. Wolfdog and LakeKayak seem to team up with these type of discussions sometimes, as seen on the mid-Atlantic talk page in regards to a move, which was declined (and asked three times within a year. two by Wolfdog, and once by LakeKayek, (a newer wikipedia user like me) with major backing from Wolfdog on the third, as noted by Misplaced Pages administrator Mike Cline). https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Mid-Atlantic_accent#Requested_move_21_February_2017 If I'm going to be accused of personal feelings, then I feel like I should point this out. As if maybe their teaming up for certain things in regards to this stuff, for favors with each each other for agreements on specific talk pages. Emykp (talk) 00:23, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Klaxonfan

Lake acutally redited and said parts of the mid-Atlantic are not part of super-region (where I'm originally from). I didn't think it was. I shouldn't of used stupid, but it was off to me that it was categorized that way. Growing up, I'd literally 'never' heard anyone say the local dialect sounded more like the southeast. Turns out it isn't part of the region. Regards to midland, Labov seems to categorize North, Midland and South as different categories in his lecture video. And that Midland is quite distinct from the South. Interview was given in 2013. Also, I was told this on and mIRC chat in en-wikipedia-help by a longtime editor when i asked a bout using a video as a source...

can a youtube video be linked as a source if it comes from a credible channel?

<+CosmicStorms> If it's relevant, yes.

if and author said something in a book in 2006, and had a speech given at a university in 2013 that contradicted what he said earlier about a specific subject related to the wikiedpia article, could that override what he said earlier in the book source, since the interview is much more recent? could a talk discussion be possibly debated to change this if this were the case? i'm talking about and interview with the exact same author of the book from a university youtube channel

<+CosmicStorms> It could.

<+CosmicStorms> That is, it could about the override.

thanks cosmic. i wasnt sure if youtube was considered a credible source or not, regardless of who was speaking in the video or if it came from a credible channel.

I came off as a little agresive in the talk discussion, probably because the video seemed to be discredited, despite the fact that Lake and I had and earlier edit clash in regards to using a video as a source (which he won on New York City English page) and then both seem to dismiss the video outright. Not saying their wrong, but the video really does seem to categories North, South and Midland in different categories. There were a couple others such breakdancesimon and JordanAMSmith (original topic creator for all of this) that seemed to have a problem with grouping midland in with the southeast. Klaxonfan (talk) 21:50, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Breakdancesimon

I have a similar opinion of what Emykp and Klaxonfan are stating. William Labov makes it so that these three "North, Midland and South" are in different categories. Labov states this in multiple videos. Seeing as how there are over 15 dialects in US english according to Labov, as he stated here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aL0--f89Qds&feature=youtu.be&t=16s , he has to be talking about Super regions when he says "North, midland in between, and south" He also clearly states that Iowa, which is part of the midland region, is missing the marked features of Northern or southern in that video that Emykp shared. I don't see how they could be in the same super-region of a NOrth, Northeast, or Southeast, because of this. It's worth remembering just because someone wrote something over 10 years ago, doesn't mean there aren't small corrections made here and there that and author may make over a period of time. Many authors do change opinions in regards to certain small things if new evidence does come to pass. This happens all the time. The videos that we shared are 7+ years newer than the book. Since it is the same author of the ANAE book that is being interviewed here, it should be looked into seriously. Also, I originally removed this from the Midland part: "/aɪ/ can be monophthongized before /l/, /m/, /n/, or /r/" under "A hierarchy of regions by phonology" because William Labov quite clearly states in this discussion https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCJh8nFXBUE&feature=youtu.be&t=1h1m33s that this isn't the case - which is another case in which Labov possibly changed his opinion over a period of time. This edit I made in regards to this was re-added, despite the fact that there was to be a talk discussion about this before it was decided whether to re-add or delete this part. Why redo edits if there is a talk going on about that? Breakdancesimon (talk) 19:06, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by JordanAMSmith

Restated position: I was the one who originally started this discussion. I was wondering about the validity of grouping Midland and Southern dialects together under the same "super-region" of the Southeast. This is because in earlier dialect studies (pre-Atlas of North American English) this grouping was not made. I also meant to discuss further how we should treat certain dialects that pose issues for classification, namely Western PA, the Texas Panhandle, and Savannah. Since discussing this with @Wolfdog: and rereading over the ANAE (Specifically chapter 11) I have come to decide that the grouping of Midland and Southern together as the "Southeastern Super-Region" is completely valid. The ANAE is the most up-to-date and comprehensive broad dialect study available, and William Labov is by far the most well-known and respected expert on the topic. In ANAE chapter 11 he provides a clear, well-defined phonological justification for the grouping. In discussion with Wolfdog I believe we have also worked out the issue with Western PA. Part of the problem here is that some users have brought up videos from Labov in 2013 (ANAE is 2005), stating the existence of a distinct Midland, South, and North. However, this is not contradictory with the ANAE: Labov is not denying the existence of the three dialect regions in the ANAE but rather grouping two together. Furthermore, Wolfdog has brought attention to another Labov paper from 2013, Labov, Rosenfelder, and Fruewald (2013) where he clearly mentions the Southeastern Super-Region again, indicating that Labov did not abandon the idea of the super-region between the publication of the ANAE and the creation of the lecture videos. JordanAMSmith (talk) 22:48, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Talk:North American_English_regional_phonology#Midland_as_part_of_Southern discussion

• Volunteer note There has been considerable discussion on the talk page. The filer should inform all parties about the DRN at their talk pages. Yashovardhan (talk) 18:08, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

Did so. Thanks. Wolfdog (talk) 19:16, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

Shouldn't Breakdancesimon and JordanAMSmith (who originally created the topic) be part of this as well? Klaxonfan (talk) 22:46, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

Alright, I notified them. Wolfdog (talk) 03:42, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

• Volunteer note - As a previous volunteer has noted, the discussion on the article talk page has been adequate to begin moderated discussion here. However, the filing editor should notify the other editors. A template is optionally available for the purpose. Also, two other editors, as mentioned, should be included. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:27, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

Done.LakeKayak (talk) 00:00, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

• Volunteer note - The filing editor has not yet provided the required notice. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:20, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

Hello. Again, I've already done this. All the players involved have been pinged on the disputed article's talk page. Wolfdog (talk) 03:10, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

@Robert McClenon: OK, I see I missed two. I should have invited everyone now. It's hard to keep track of everyone! Wolfdog (talk) 17:42, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

• Comment. @Breakdancesimon: Labov has been reported to change his perspective. However, when he does change it, he usually has some form of a lead-in. One example is in the ANAE where he says as follows:

"Traditionally, it was considered that /oh/ class words with vocalized /r/ were homonymous with the corresponding words without /r/. LYS (1972) reported that the distinction between source and sauce persisted: that even though native speakers thought they were the same, there was a significant tendency to pronounce the source class with a higher and backer vowel."Chapter 17.

That's why at least I am weary to say that he simply changed his perspective.LakeKayak (talk) 19:37, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

• Comment. Is it possible that we find middle ground on this? Would it be possible to drop the super region discussion and list them each categorically by dialect? West, Canada, New York, Inland North, midland, mid-altantic/etcetc? Labov said their were 15 dialects in the US in that video. How a bout we list them this way instead of grouping them into super regions? Here's a map that wolfdog made that would list these as their own regional dialects https://en.wikipedia.org/North_American_English#/media/File:North_American_English_dialect_regions.jpg. That map could be used to number them on the main article page. We could still list what Labov states within each of the 15 dialect regions. Any takers? This conversation started months ago,and it's still very divided. Not to be pushy, but I'm kinda ready to move on from this. I really don't want to be talking a bout this a week from now. Sorry if I come off as pushy, but that's how I feel. Klaxonfan (talk) 23:37, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

• Question. How exactly is this middle ground?LakeKayak (talk) 01:15, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
• @Klaxonfan: I've already made the case that as a hierarchically structured encyclopedia (i.e. with sections, subsections, etc.), Misplaced Pages is conducive to organizing dialects that way (not to mention it is both convenient and well-documented), especially if there is hard evidence from dialectologists to do so, which there is. Isn't that the whole dispute? Some of us like the hierarchical organization and some don't? Also, that old map of mine you bring up you will notice I longer use on Misplaced Pages pages. I would delete it if I knew how. I've created a better one since, which is now on this page. As for the "15 dialects", he says there are actually "about 15 dialects". Dialects are not set in stone... they're approximate. You're opening up a whole new can of worms by now setting the number. Wolfdog (talk) 03:10, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

It's middle ground because I wanted to use wolfdog's (the filer on this page) map as the basis to reorganize the page. Also, since both of you seem to do big edits (something I usually don't do) I'd let you guys decide on how it should be reorganized. Wolfdog seemed to say Labov is the one that came up with the super region stuff. I know on first hand after reading numerous books on US english, that no-one else I read list things as super regions. So this is absolutely not a homogeneous listing. They basically just talk about the regional dialects, such as New York, Inland North, Midland, the West and so on without grouping them into super regions. We don't have to number them a specific way. We could categorize them alphabetically or some other way. Or however you think would be the best without turning it into super regions. Would you be open to listing them how they were listed for 8 years of this article page's existence? Early example for this here ---> ( June 3rd, 2008) https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=North_American_English_regional_phonology&oldid=216737692. And a later example here with laregly the same grouping ---> (June 4th, 2016) https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=North_American_English_regional_phonology&oldid=723680115. Again, this conversation started months back, with much division in opinion in regards to this. I'd also like to get this resolved in the next 3-4 days if possible. I'm trying to call for some sort of middle ground if possible? Klaxonfan (talk) 14:23, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

There are problems with both versions. For one, "New Jersey English" is not a dialect. I ought to know. I live in New Jersey. For another, the former version has a section "Northeastern dialects" and the latter has a section "Middle Atlantic", both of which are original concepts. While the initial post for this discussion was posted in September 2016, the second post wasn't posted until February and the third was posted a few days ago. From there, the discussion became lively. This discussion in a sense is only 11 days old and not 6 months.LakeKayak (talk) 16:28, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

As LakeKayak implies, we reorganized this page to turn it from a less well-sourced article (with vague lumpings like "Northeastern dialects") to a more well-sourced article (with specific, well-researched categories like "Southeastern super-region" based on an easily verifiable and widely respected study in the field). Klaxonfan, what sources do you have to either (A) discredit Labov and the ANAE, or (B) support some better alternative way to organize dialects (maybe offered by some other linguist)? Using Labov's videos does nothing to discredit Labov's own writings. Rather than contradicting his writings, his videos smoothly align to his writings and/or just go into more depth in some particular topic. If he suddenly discovered that the Southeastern super-region was no longer a valid concept, wouldn't he be openly declaring that in his videos? Wouldn't he be announcing, "The discoveries of the ANAE have been shown to be inaccurate or obsolete?" Wouldn't this be making quite a stir within his academic community? Yet nothing of the sort has happened. A publication from ten years ago in the linguistics community is still very up-to-date. Consider how very long it takes to accumulate nationwide dialect research. It took the ANAE about a decade just to gather information before going to publication (from the 1990s into the 2000s). It would be quite a shocking, groundbreaking revelation if it turned out the Southeastern designation no longer remained within just over ten years of its discovery. That would imply that accents have altered to their core in dozens of major American cities simultaneously, all within the span of a single decade, and, just as surprising, no one has noticed this or published anything about it. Again: Can you find any definitive example of a scholar who either (A) argues against Labov, or (B) presents a better alternative look at dialects? I feel that you must admit that, so far, you have been unable to do either. Wolfdog (talk) 17:07, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

• Recuse and note I recently had interactions with LakeKayak which makes me uneligible to volunteer for thhis dispute. Is any other volunteer available? Please keep discussion at a minimum here before a volunteer has opened the discussion. Yashovardhan (talk) 17:03, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
• Comment. I DO NOT appreciate that LakeKayek is making changes on the North American regional Phonolhy page in regards to this topic wothout it being resolved. Is this not against the rules? We are not yet in agreement, and he's are already making changes to the article page which he prefers. If possible, I'd like and admin to look into this. *@Breakdancesimon: *@Emykp: Please give your views on this. He is changing things to his viewpoint that he is arguing for without any resolve on this page. This is very disrespectful. If you have noticed, all the disagreeing parties have waited it out before making edits in regards to this on the article page. Klaxonfan (talk) 05:53, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Yes, it is disrespectful. I'm still of the opinion that Midland should be in it's own category, as you mentioned in the post above. Midland was it's own category on the article page for over 8 years. And I think this aligns with what William Labov was stating in those videos, which he categorized Midland outside of both the North and South. Also, I worry that Lake and Wolfdog have some sort of pact going on in terms of reaching agreement, as I shown above in a comment in regards to how they reacted on the mid-atlantic page. The request move was asked three times within a year, despite it being on the same front talk page where it was asked each time. The admin specifically told them to please stop doing this Emykp (talk) 13:08, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

@Emykp: I was never informed by an admin to "stop from doing this" as you say. The admin only said "Three RMs in slightly over a year suggests that this one should be left alone unless overwhelming evidence to the contrary surfaces."LakeKayak (talk) 15:05, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

@Emykp: This "pact" is no more real than any pact you and Klaxonfan have. Just like you two, we sometimes cleave together when we have aligning POVs. No need to imply some conspiracy. I have both agreed and disagreed with LakeKayak in the past. I, like LakeKayak, have asked admins about RMs in the past and we are operating completely legitimately. However, you are resorting to an ad hominem attack about our past as editors, bringing up some completely unrelated topic. We both would like to see the page Mid-Atlantic accent moved and have advocated for this on multiple occasions; yes, this is true and it's no secret. But it also has nothing to do with this particular discussion. As for you and Klaxonfan, as I have now said countless times, you are making strange and non-sequitur logical leaps from this video. For the umpteenth time, I AGREE that "he categorized Midland outside of both the North and South". No one is categorizing the Midland INSIDE OF the South. How many times does this have to be said?? The issue is whether or not the Southeastern super-region is valid. Just because Labov doesn't mention it in some videos doesn't mean it's no longer valid. @LakeKayak: If the other editors want us to temporarily stop editing, we should honor that and hold off for now. Wolfdog (talk) 17:11, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

I believe that LakeKayak should be dis-included in this debate now that he has edited the Misplaced Pages article page without clearing this up on the dispute page. And as I have already shown in the videos, I believe that the midland accent should not be put in any region with the North or south super regions. Labov categorized specifically a North, Midland and South in multiple videos. All over seven years after the book. I said this over a week ago and still believe in this, Breakdancesimon (talk) 18:48, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

@Breakdancesimon: Don't jump the gun. We've only just given LakeKayak one warning. Your desire to disinclude him is too hasty; if edit-warring were occurring, that would be a whole other matter. Moving on... Why are we repeating the same arguments over and over again? You say "Labov categorized specifically a North, Midland and South in multiple videos." YES, we are all agreeing with you that the North, Midland, and South are distinct, and yet, NO, this is not mutually exclusive with what myself, LakeKayak, JordanAMSmith, and AJD are saying: that the Midland and South (and Mid-Atlantic) all fall under Labov's Southeastern super-region: an area of /oʊ/ fronting and no completed cot-caught merger. Do you deny this? You can seem to find no evidence to disprove this except to say that the videos are "All over seven years after the book" (i.e. the ANAE). First off: Labov has also published writings in 2013 (also seven years after the book), in which -- lo and behold -- he continues to use the Southeastern super-region as a valid concept. And second off: so what if the videos are newer that the ANAE? Dialect information that is a decade old is hardly obsolete, unless you can provide explicitly stated proof that it is obsolete. Show me where it is written (or even spoken) that the Southeastern super-region is no longer a valid categorization. Wolfdog (talk) 19:13, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Wolfdog, yes, it is a problem when we have a dispute page and people automatically start editing the said wikipedia article page without finishing the conversation on the dispute page. It shows complete disrespect. It should be 'common sense' to not edit a wikipedia page in regards to a speicifc topic if you hava an ongoing dispute page going on about said topic. As klaxon stated, all disapproving parties have waited until the dispute was settled before editing. NOTHING was changed onm the main page in terms of how I, along with Klaxon and Simon would like the page to redone into. I still stand by my beliefs that Labov in those videos that he wanted North, Midland and South is separate categorizes as Simon stated above. He did state that specifically in multiple videos. I also don't like your tone in regards to how you'bve spoken to me on this, in regards to us both having different opinions. I get attacked by you for having different viewpoints in regards to this, which I do not appreciate. You told me on the talk page that you were both "surprised and dissapointed" that I backed Klaxonfan. And you accused us on this page of being "personal" about this topic. You come off as someone that isn't willing to let other viewpoints be allowed from your own without resorting to such comments. Which is why I brough up the Mid-altantic talk discussion. And yes, on the mid-atlantic page, there was a conversation just a few months before the new one was brought up - a big conversation, that disagreed on moving the page. All three "moves" were on the same front talk page. The second one just a little above that last one, that was a few months earlier. It's disrespectful to have 3 conversations about that very same topic in a year period. It's like you aren't willing to accept the outcome until the viewpoint aligns with your own. And that to keep on trying multiple times a year is the disired outcome until your opinion sticks. I do find this highly disrespectful to all the others that ended up disagreeing with the moving, only to have mutliple talks of moving a year until your viewpoint comes to pass. An wikipedia dminstrator even stepped in and said that this topic was being brought up too much in the span of a year. I've noticed that about this dispute as well. Before you started charging me with getting "personal" or disappointed and surprised" in my views, I looked upon your opinion highly. Emykp (talk) 19:33, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

This conversation seems to be going nowhere. I tried to find common ground. But it doesn't seem like that is working at all. I don't know what to state other than the topic is still deeply divided. I'd still like to if possible, to just list the individual accents instead of using any super region discussion. I take it wolfdog doesn't like this idea? It was like this for over 8 years on the article page. That's how it was categorized in most books that I've read on US related accents. Though I will admit most of these were from the 90s. Though one can make the argument that ANAE is over 10 years old now. I'd definitely would prefer to find some middle ground if possible on all sides so we can work together on this. And get this settled quickly if possible. Let's please stop shouting at one another, and of course not make edits that align with your views when we have a dispute page for this very discussion. It is demoralizing when we've had this long discussion a bout this, and someone makes edits when this dispute is still going on. I'll admit I was very upset when I seen this was happening. Simon and Emykp probably felt the same way. But at this point, let's please find middle ground. Thank you. Klaxonfan (talk) 20:31, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

I am sorry. I think I now can see how I stepped out of line. At the time, I only thought to reach an agreement with JordanAMSmith's concerns. Because regardless of this end result, it seemed like JordanAMSmith's point still needed to be handled. And on the talk page, I got no response against. However, I should have held off.LakeKayak (talk) 21:53, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Reminder

The notice says to please keep discussion at this noticeboard to a minimum until a volunteer moderator takes control of the discussion. You already know that extended back-and-forth discussion has not worked at the article talk page, in that it has been inconclusive, so please wait for a volunteer moderator. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:38, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Do not edit the page in question while we are waiting for a volunteer moderator. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:07, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Do not edit the page in question while we are waiting for a volunteer moderator. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:07, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Question

Are the editors interested in moderated discussion? Robert McClenon (talk) 21:49, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

To be honest, JordanAMSmith, the original initiator of the discussion (not to be confused with the nominator of this dispute resolution discussion, which was me), has been able to come to a consensus with myself and others for the original problem being puzzled over. We're now on common ground and so, in one sense, the dispute is over. However, Klaxonfan and Emykp seem to want to continue the discussion. They can correct me if I'm wrong on that. What they say continues to be in dispute to what us others are arguing and so long as we talk with them, we seem to be talking in circles. If they want to continue talking, yes, I'd like a moderated discussion if only to hear an external and more neutral third-party perspective. Is that what a moderated discussion implies? Wolfdog (talk) 02:00, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

I, along with Klaxon and Emykp still believe in what were saying. So no common ground was ever found. It;s still a deeply divided topic. Breakdancesimon (talk) 10:55, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

First statement by moderator

Please read User:Robert McClenon/Mediation Rules and follow the rules. I will be the moderator if there is interest in having moderated discussion. Will each editor who wishes to engage in moderated discussion please make a one-paragraph statement of what they think the issues are? Any editor who does not wish to engage in moderated discussion may make a statement to that effect, or may say nothing, and silence will be considered to be acquiescence. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:23, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Maybe I'm confused, as I've never engaged talk on the dispute resolution board before. Didn't each user that wishes to engage in this already make a statement above in around 2000 characters or less in their "summary of dispute?" Can we go by those statements? It seems like most people here haven't changed their minds. Common ground was unfortunately not found. Breakdancesimon (talk) 11:04, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Robert McClenon: Like Breakdancesimon, I'm also confused. Do you want us to reiterate what we've already said above in our summaries but in one paragraph? Wolfdog (talk) 17:13, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

First statements by editors

The issue brought up by the editor who opened the original discussion has been resolved, but users are still debating whether North American English regional phonology should include a section grouping dialects under a "Southeastern super-region" (at the moment under the "Southeastern United States" section of that article). This super-region was documented, probably for the first time, in the 2006 Atlas of North American English by William Labov et al, the most respected publication on American dialects in the 2000s. Other editors have inferred that Labov's silence on the concept in some 2013 YouTube videos means he no longer considers the concept valid, but I have shown this to be untrue, since Labov uses the concept in writings of the exact same year. A second concern is that some editors wish to see the entire North American English regional phonology page split from four overall content sections (with the "Southeastern" section the most disliked without evidence) into some fifteen. I, however, think that this is excessive, that it does not take advantage of Misplaced Pages's reader-friendly layout of ordering by sections and sub-sections, and that it will result only in narrowly highlighting differences between various dialects, rather than a more thorough and comprehensive view of both differences and similarities (i.e. it would favor a "splitter" view, instead of providing a compromise of both the "lumper" and "splitter" views). Moderation is needed because we keep making the same arguments in circles, leading to no outcome/consensus. Wolfdog (talk) 00:13, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

References

1. This most prominently includes a large 2013 study called "One Hundred Years of Sound Change in Philadelphia"

Alright. Here I go. This debate has come down to over whether or not the concept of dialect "super-regions" should be used. The concept was used in the Atlas of North American English as a convenient way to analyze dialects. Exact reason against the use of this concept is rather unclear.LakeKayak (talk) 21:27, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Second statement by moderator

Some of the statements above are lengthy and tedious. Yes, restate your position in one paragraph if you want moderated discussion. What is important is to state something so that I know that you want moderated discussion, since some editors are satisfied and some are not. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:16, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Second statements by editors

Third statement by moderator

Okay. It appears that there are questions about how to organize the presentation of dialects. At present the dialects do appear to be organized into four regions or super-regions, and subdivided into regions or sub-regions. It appears that there is some objection to the Southeastern super-region. If there is objection to the concept of a Southeastern super-region, what is its basis? What changes, if any, do editors want made to the listing and organization of regions? Robert McClenon (talk) 01:13, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

There don't appear to have been any comments by the editors. Does that mean that they are satisfied, and this case can be closed? Robert McClenon (talk) 18:02, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Third statements by editors

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Shakya#Ethnicity (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Teishin (talk · contribs)
• GlynClarke (talk · contribs)
• MayurQ (talk · contribs)
• Illuminaati (talk · contribs)
• Clean Copy (talk · contribs)
• 68.33.74.235 (talk · contribs)
• 117.192.211.41 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

The views of several editors are in conflict, on multiple dimensions. Editorializing is a problem. One editor has been verbally abusive in the discussion. Achieving a workable agreement seems elusive. Some users object to mixing mythological origin material with scholarly material. Some object to the inclusion or the veracity of of some of the scholarly material. Some object to the exclusion or editorializing of that material.

Note that User_talk:68.33.74.235 has been tagged as a suspected sockpuppet of Illuminaati (talk · contribs).

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

The discussion on the talk page is becoming circular. Multiple times a day someone changes someone else's edits.

How do you think we can help?

Moderating the discussion with a focus on enforcing editing standards might help.

Summary of dispute by GlynClarke

-FYI, This section is about racial origins theories.

-I am okay with present version. From the previous discussion I also think that everyone Teishin , MayurQ and Clean Copy ( and also Illuminaati seeing his latest comment) were also in agreement with the current version as per discussion on talk page.

-The rest of the article already describe the widely prevalent mythology which is okay as the same way of writing is followed in almost all other wiki pages of this nature. However, this topic is specifically about racial originor Origin theories or ethnicity there is no point is comparing mythology with scholarly articles. This section should be restricted to scholarly articles. Also, it seems like MayurQ is also confusing Hindu community division system with racial origins/ethnicity. They are two different things.

-Moreover, rest of the article contains content that is there after years of hundreds of such discussions and mutual consensus on evidences; just check that talk page history. Modifying that part is going to raise of huge storm.

In Response to @Clean Copy: - any other section of article should NOT modified, cut or removed rest of the article contains content that is there after YEARS of HUNDREDS of such discussions and mutual consensus on evidences; just check that talk page history. Modifying that part is going to raise of huge storm.

1. if anyone has any scholarly articles that indicate Shakya origins from maybe Aryans, Mongoloid etc then such articles are valid to be presented here.

. .

Summary of dispute by MayurQ

I have no issue with current version but i agree with user Clean Copy. MayurQ (talk) 17:40, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Edit : response to others views.

• I don't agree with title change to "ethnicity", Shakya is a clan (Sanskrit: kula) aka clan as per Buddhist texts, not an ethnic group. Current title "Origin theories" is better suited for the topic related to scholarly theories of origin of Shakyas. MayurQ (talk) 01:56, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

• I agree with User Clean Copy. We need to include both Shakyas claim of descent and recent attempts of scholarly sources under Origins sections. MayurQ (talk) 02:01, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Illuminaati

Update: making more precise

1. I am okay with current version, but think that the title Ethnicity is more appropriate
2. Agreeing with GlynClarke I am against adding mythology in this section. It should only contain scholarly research articles.@GlynClarke:,@MayurQ:,@Clean Copy:,@Teishin: please share your views so that this can be resolved quickly.Illuminaati (talk) 22:27, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Clean Copy

• Content

Summarizing the debate: there are both mythological and (indecisive) modern ideas about the origin of the Shakya. The placement, role, and valuation of these is under dispute, in part because the modern suppositions quoted may not be generally accepted by experts, though this lack of support has never been really demonstrated by the participants in the debate. There is also a debate about whether to title the section of the article discussing origin theories "Other origin theories" or simply "origin theories"; this dispute largely arises because the mythological (emic) view appears earlier in the article.

I believe the article would be best served by gathering all of these theories under one section, perhaps with the title Origins or Origin theories. This would include the ethnic group's mythological claim to a descent from a sun god and recent attempts to provide a more scientific lineage. The mythological attribution should appear only in this section, not in multiple places in the article. This would make the current discussion about what to title this section moot. (In response to GlynClarke: yes, mythological attributions and modern research into ethnic origins should be cleanly differentiated, and I would be comfortable with two subsections, but it makes sense to me to bring them under a single larger heading. This is not a major issue in my opinion; if they are in two different sections, that's fine, too.

Later note: while the emic origin story (descent from a Sun-god)is clearly mythological, the academic research into the origins of a tribe 2,500 years ago, in the complete absence of any contemporary documentation, is necessarily nearly as speculative. Clean Copy 12:07, 22 April 2017 (UTC) I am not suggesting any of this be removed.Clean Copy 13:15, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Furthermore, at least one user (Illuminati) seems to labor under the misconception that it is sufficient to point out apparent discrepancies in a theory in order to discredit it on WP, whereas here, Truth bows to authority: we must find respected figures in a field who have given this disparity their attention and found it valid.

• Tone

In addition, there are heated words being exchanged. This is a pity; we can have a rational discussion here and appreciate that each person is bringing a valid standpoint. Clean Copy 01:32, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by 68.33.74.235

Summary of dispute by 117.192.211.41

Talk:Shakya#Ethnicity discussion

• Volunteer notethe discussion on the article talk page has been adequate to begin moderated discussion here. there has been considerable discussion on the talk page. The nominator should inform all involved parties of the DRN on their talk page. Optionally, there's a template available for this. The nominator has mentioned on the DRN talk page that he does not wish to discuss the conduct issue here. I'd like to remind here that if any editor wishes to discuss a conduct issue, he/she should visit WP:ANI and file a case. Also, it should be noted that in such cases, the conduct issue takes precedence and this DRN case will be closed. Editors should refrain from editing the article or taking the matter to any other forum until this DRN is closed. A volunteer will soon open the case. Yashovardhan (talk) 17:05, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
• Volunteer note@Teishin:Sorry, you have not yet notified GlynClarke,MayurQ and the IPs at all.Also please use the {{subst:drn-notice|name of DRN case}} template specifically.And unless and until this is complete the DR process would not be started.Thanks!Winged Blades 17:42, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
  • @Winged Blades of Godric: I'd a look and Teishin seems to have left a message on the User page instead of the user talk page. I really don't know what to make of this. Yashovardhan (talk) 17:54, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Thank you. I think I have fixed the notification errors. My apologies. Teishin (talk) 17:57, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

• Volunteer note--And I've opened it.All parties are requested to submit their point of views and opinion summarily in their respective sections(Or decline their participation in this case).All participants are further asked to withhold discussion until every participant provides an opening statement.Thanks!Winged Blades 18:05, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

I plan to take this up at tomorrow again.Winged Blades 18:06, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

• protection note Due to the level of edit war on the article page, the article has been protected for a week. If the DRN ends before that, you can request for a change in protection. See Misplaced Pages:Requests for page protection#Shakya. Yashovardhan (talk) 18:22, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
• Volunteer comment--It may be duly noted by the participants that we,the editorial community do not asses the verificability and truth value of any statement made by a WP:RS.Any source which comfortably passes WP:RS may not be subject to the discretion of any editor over it's veracity.But this certainly does not rule out excluding something (mentioned in the source) on the article, on grounds of WP:WEIGHT.Winged Blades 16:58, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

@Illuminati:--Please address the issue from your point of view/opinion summarily without resorting to unnecessary sarcasms.And maintain WP:CIVIL.As of now,I am having a hard time to understand your position on the issue.Winged Blades 17:37, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Primarily, this seems to be a dispute of the validity and relative weight of the sources.On this regard, I would like to ask all the participants to conform strictly to the guidelines of WP:RS withpout delving on the zones of WP:OR and/or WP:SYNTHESIS irrespective of the virtues and vices of the individual arguments put forward.Winged Blades 17:57, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

• Teishin's comment-- My primary concern in opening this dispute was not so much about the content being disputed, it was about the edit warring and the failure to adhere to editorial and civility standards. My opinion is that the existing content about the Scythian origins should be in a section labeled, probably, either "Ethnicity"or "Origins" sans any of the editorializing that had been happening. Perhaps at some later date someone else can find additional scholarly references to include here that support alternative views, but until such references are produced, this is what we have to include in this section and it should be included without editorializing. I agree that the content about the mythological origins is also of interest to our users, but it doesn't belong with the ethnicity content. Other than that, I don't have an opinion about it.Teishin (talk) 14:21, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

• Volunteer comment-In accordance with the content posted here, the best option to resolve the axis of dispute will be to open a WP:RFC and ask the community to opine over-

1)Whether the section shall be titled Origin theories or ethnicity ?

2)Whether the ethnic group's mythological claim to a descent belong to this particular section?

Furthermore, during the period of the RFC, all the parties are strongly requested to abstain from any edit-earring, even after the current protection goes stale.

If any-body has any other dispute or any other problems, please specify within a span of 48 hrs. directly to the moderator or else I'm willing to close it.Thanks!Winged Blades 14:46, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• Volunteer note all parties have been notified and there has been extensive discussion on the talk page. All editors (other than the nominator) are requested to file a summary of the dispute in about one paragraph above. All editors are requested to follow WP:CIVIL. A volunteer will open the case after these perquisites are met.

In the meanwhile, please do not edit the article in concern and stop all talks on the talk page. Yashovardhan (talk) 10:26, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

• Volunteer note If no party files an opening summary above within 24 hours, the case will be assumed to have been resolved and will be closed accordingly. Yashovardhan (talk) 07:36, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Raheja Developers (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Sitush; Leoaugust; Tokyogirl (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

hi This is further with reference to Misplaced Pages page of Raheja developers in India, I would like to inform you that the New York City wiki office has refused to take any responsibility of the content or deletion of my page and had asked to approach Misplaced Pages India. When I approached the President, Misplaced Pages India chapter, he too refused saying that he also does not have any control over the content or the server of the same. And refused out rightly to help in deletion of the page. Since then I have been running from pillar to post to find out who is responsible for this page.

There are 2-3 wikipedia editors Sitush, tokyogirl and Leo August who have conflict of interest with Raheja Developers and are deliberately trying to malign and tarnish the image of the company. I have written proof in the email from leoaugust asking Rs. 40 lacs (4 million) who is trying to blackmail our company if the same is not paid.he is using your platform to do so. Request you to allow me send you the details of the proof confirming the same.

Now can anyone please help me with finding the right contact in India for this page so that I am heard and my problem is addressed. I am requesting both the headquarters ( New York) and the India Chapter to provide me with the contact details of the person or forum with name, number and email id so that I approach them and resolve this issue for once and for all.

I have been repeatedly requesting you all to delete my page and my trademark from there but in vain. Nobody is bothered to direct me to the right person. None of my mails get replied except the ones that says we are not responsible for any content up there. This doesn't work that way. I am once again summarizing what I want point wise:

1.Right contact with name, number and email ID 2.Deleting my trademark which is being used without our approval 3.Deleting my Misplaced Pages page completely

Awaiting right guidance with right contact on my request from Misplaced Pages.

Regards. Dimple

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

i have tried approaching the administrator through various mails, tweets and discussions on the talk page. My talk page is also kind of locked. i no more have access to the same.i approached India and the New york office but no body is helping in deletion of my page compeletly. the trademark used on the page is without my approval. the posts are negative and the references that are given are the website of the blackmailer who is a wikipedia editor.

How do you think we can help?

since i never want my trademark or my comapny name is misused by any such person quoted above, who have malafide intentions against us, I want complete deletion of my wikipedia page so that there is no more harassment, mental torture and physical stress.

Summary of dispute by Sitush; Leoaugust; Tokyogirl

Talk:Raheja Developers discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Shenandoah (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)
• Pennsylvania (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• G0h4n123 (talk · contribs)
• John from Idegon (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Another editor believes the only news source based in Shenandoah, Pennsylvania isn't credible or worthy of inclusion in the borough's wiki page's Local Media site, despite documented evidence of the organization's existence, mission, structure, etc etc etc, from long-established local news source in the northeastern Pennsylvania. In fact, last night, another similar article was published by Allentown, PA's TV station. I haven't posted that in the Talk page yet, but I sincerely believe it'll go in one ear and out the other, so-to-speak, which is what led me to this filing. The site was originally removed by a 3rd party IP address which, prior to deleting the listing, referred to it as a "highly biased news source" and asked readers to do themselves a favor and not read The Shenandoah Sentinel. The edits were not done in good faith, and were thus reverted, which is where John from Idegon jumped in and blatantly ignored any explanation from my side, which began the dispute. (note, it is not my intention to insult/mock/etc in this article. If my words come across as such, I sincerely apologize. That is not my intention.)

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Repairing edits made maliciously by a third party to remove the news source's listing or mock it's credibility/existence (one such edit referred to it as a "garbage news source."

How do you think we can help?

Third party explanation/intervention.

Summary of dispute by John from Idegon

Talk:Shenandoah, Pennsylvania discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:United States presidential election, 2020 (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Crewcamel (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

We had an RFC to resolve a dispute.

RFC: Do speculative candidates violate WP:CRYSTAL and should they be removed?

When ignoring answers with no explanation vote stands at 4 no's and 8 yes's

No one can agree what the consensus is.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Held an RFC. Waited a month. Tallied the votes. No ones seems very interested.

How do you think we can help?

Decide what the consensus is yourself

Talk:United States_presidential_election,_2020 discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• User talk:MrOllie#Why.3F (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Doronenko (talk · contribs)
• MrOllie (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

I made a small refinement on the page Electric fence about a lethal electric fence EZOH used in socialist Czechoslovakia as a part of Iron Curtain till 1965. So 1. I added the abbreviation – EZOH 2. I added an authoritative reference to it. This link contains a PDF-file made by the archive of Czech Ministry of the Interior (so government organization, highly reliable source). The language of this document is Czech. This information can help anyone who is interested in the Iron Curtain topic. Then the user MrOllie just reverted my commit without any clarification and without any notification. I asked him about the reason of this strange revert but he just ignored me. I don't want to start any Edit warring so can anyone help me? Seems MrOllie is not inclined to discuss his actions. Thanks in advance.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I asked him on his Talk page and he just ignored it.

How do you think we can help?

Someone neutral should ask this user what was the reason of his revert and then we need to resolve it.

Summary of dispute by MrOllie

User talk:MrOllie#Why.3F discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.