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Sexology and sexuality Unassessed

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Judaism Unassessed

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Translated from Hebrew Misplaced Pages --Midrashah (talk) 15:40, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

This article is a mess, and it would probably be best to delete it and start over again. Hznhr (talk) 05:20, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree. The entire first paragraph (excepting the first sentence, that I fixed) on Homosexuality makes no sense. Of course the prohibition on lesbianism is not from the same source as the prohibition on male relations. Much of the article is unreferenced. The part of emission should start with the prohibition against arousing the libido, which is the source prohibition, then go to directly causing emission. Should this be RfD'd?

P.S. I disagree with the banner. There is no list of references, just some external links.Mzk1 (talk) 20:39, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

What Maimonides stated

We have a reliable source written by a professor from American Jewish University who stated what Maimonides has written. A direct reference to Maimonides' work is prohibited by WP:OR and WP:PRIMARY. Tgeorgescu (talk) 19:26, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

See salso WP:BURDEN. Tgeorgescu (talk) 19:33, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

His work has been published by Jewish Publication Society. Tgeorgescu (talk) 19:45, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

We have to distinguish an empiric-analytical claim about the texts written by Maimonides from a theological claim which would require assent from a community of faith. So, unless someone is prepared to affirm that this claim was made up (and prove it with reliable sources), Misplaced Pages defaults to keeping it per WP:VER. Tgeorgescu (talk) 19:48, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Non-halakhic (non-Orthodox) Judaism

Thiss article reads like it was written by Shmuley Boteach (an Orthodox rabbi who has written on sexuality). It's all Orthodox. There are millions who call themselves Jews who reject halakha partially or totally. Our views deserve inclusion.

On the same topic, there are quite a few people who by religious law are unquestionably Jews, who reject Judaism as a personal religion and would probably answer "no" if asked "are you a Jew?". Yet they are unquestionably of Jewish descent and culture, and halakhicly Jews no matter what they said or did. Among them are many sexual innovators and radicals: among others, Sigmund Freud, Magnus Hirschfeld, Wilhelm Reich, Ruth Westheimer (a Haganah sharpshooter), even Annie Sprinkle, Nina Hartley, Susan Block, Al Goldstein, Harry Reems, Jamie Gillis, Ron Jeremy, Philip Roth, Erica Jong, and we shouldn't forget Emma Goldman. (Who could forget her?) See "The Jewish Masters of Porn", http://jewishfaces.com/porn.html and Category:Jewish American pornographers. This is a simcha (joy), not a shonda (disgrace), and needs treatment somewhere. deisenbe (talk) 20:14, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

I can agree with your first point, but you are wrong on the second, for the simple reason that this article is not about Jews and sexuality, but about Judaism and sexuality. Debresser (talk) 21:43, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

Lead-in I wrote deleted by user:Debresser as "personal opinion"

In general, in contrast with Christianity, Judaism views sexuality positively, a gift from God that is by no means limited to reproduction. Celibacy is no virtue; there is an informal but strong expectation that a man, and especially a community leader, should have a wife. Lovemaking on the Sabbath is appropriate and commendable.

In Jewish law , sexuality is viewed as having both positive and negative potential...

deisenbe (talk) 00:32, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Yep. And why did you decide to write about this here? By the way, I left that last sentence. Debresser (talk) 06:06, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Which sentence did you leave?

The talk page is the WP designated place for discussions of an article and how to improve it. deisenbe (talk) 11:53, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

I left the sentence "...sexuality is viewed as having both positive and negative potential...", contrary to your post above that says I removed it.

So discuss! You just posted a statement. Debresser (talk) 08:27, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

You removed everything that I wrote. The words you quote are not by me and antedate my edit.

As far as discussion, I've said all I care to as of now. I'm not going to go over with you what I wrote sentence by sentence. The WP concept is that _others_ might add to the discussion. deisenbe (talk) 08:46, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Another reversion by user:debresser (he is imposing here his own view, Haredi Judaism; he identifies as Haredi on his user page)

The paragraph that begins "In Judaism" I changed to "In Jewish law", which is all the section goes on to talk about. Judaism and Jewish law are not the same thing. Rabbis from previous centuries, or millenia, do not have the sole authority to say what Judaism is or what Judaism's view of sexuality is. In my opinion, anyway. deisenbe (talk) 11:57, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Well, there you have it. Your opinion is correct, and mine is just religious POV. Thank you for clarifying that. I'd like to refer you to Misplaced Pages:Avoid personal remarks in this regards. It is interesting how quick editors are to ascribe the fact that I disagree with them to me being religious. Actually, that fits well with the present anti-religion climate in America.

The truth is, your edit was plain wrong. Jewish law doesn't have a view of sexuality. It is precisely Judaism that has a view of sexuality. "Judaism" is a lot more than just "Jewish law". Debresser (talk) 08:25, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

So I'm influenced, I guess, by the alleged anti-religious climate in America. Touché.

I couldn't agree more that Judaism is more than Jewish law. I'm not sure we mean the same thing by Jewish law. I would say the Shulchan Aruch contains Jewish law. deisenbe (talk) 08:40, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Agree. By the way, I had a look at your userpage, and your website (now on the Wayback machine). It seems you could also be accused of having a strong personal POV that shall remain unnamed. So let's do without all that and just try to edit, applying the Misplaced Pages pillar of WP:CONSENSUS. Debresser (talk) 08:59, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

It's fine with me if you name my alleged personal POV. You already referred to it. I _want_ my Web site on the Wayback machine. Are you trying to frighten or humiliate me? You might follow your own advice about Avoiding personal remarks. deisenbe (talk) 09:03, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

The opposite. I am saying that we should not pay attention to perceived personal points of view, and just discuss the matter at hand as objectively as we can. Debresser (talk) 21:44, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Examples of lack of neutral POV

As long as this article goes on to talk about the view of Judaism and ONLY quotes Jewish law as the sum total of Judaism, it does not have neutral POV. This is not a neutral POV sentence, from the intro:

Sexuality is the subject of many narratives and laws in the Tanakh and rabbinic literature.

It implies that Judaism's views on the topic are known by looking at the Tanakh and rabbinic literature, AND NOTHING MORE. I call that not neutral. deisenbe (talk) 20:48, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Here's another example of lack of neutral POV:

The traditional view is that the Torah forbids all anal intercourse between two males, and this is the view of Orthodoxy; there are other modern views that disagree. The source of this prohibition is a verse from the Book of Leviticus: "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind; it is abomination." (Leviticus, 18:22). However, Rashi interpreted the matter as only prohibiting anal sexual acts between two men (and not other sexual acts between them), as he stated: "As one would penetrate a blue-brush into a receiver." But other authoritative commentators of the Torah see all sexual acts between two males to be included within the ban on "sperm in vain". The Jewish sages added additional barriers to this ban, and forbid males to put themselves in any situation that might lead to such an offense. For example: Chazal prohibited two single males from sleeping under the same blanket.

Seven words, "there are other modern views that disagree", are all the space that is given to non-Orthodox views. Who holds these views, and what they are, is ignored, with a reference to another article. And information is found there. But the rest of the paragraph - 150 words - is all about the Orthodox view. And it isn't true that 150 words for the Orthodox and 7 words for everybody else fairly represents the interests of Jews. That isn't the proportions of Orthodox versus non-Orthodox people within the Jewish community. deisenbe (talk) 20:57, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

What modern views are you referring to that are part of Judaism? There are a few references and external links to non-Orthodox views as well. What more do you want? Please note that Judaism has been what you call Orthodox about ten times longer than that non-Orthodoxy exists. I mean, you must give the various opinions their rightful do. Debresser (talk) 21:00, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Well, if you look at the article Homosexuality and Judaism, non-Orthodox views (including Conservative) are given 2700 words, and Orthodox is given 2500. I counted them using WordPerfect. That's a better balance.

You're correct that Judaism has been "what I call Orthodox" (what do you call it?) much longer than non-Orthodoxy. I'm not sure if it's ten times, but it's a big discrepancy. But that's talking about the PAST. This article is, or should be, as I see it, about Judaism in the PRESENT, not as it was centuries ago.

The article is not "The History of Judaism and Sexuality".

FYI, although you may know this already, the term "Orthodoxy" was not applied to Judaism until the nineteenth century (though what is called Orthodoxy of course existed before). In the United States in the nineteenth century, Reform Judaism was far and away the predominant form of Judaism. I don't know about other countries. In the United States, Orthodoxy did not have a significant presence until the arrival of the Ashkenazi from central Europe toward the end of the nineteenth century. deisenbe (talk) 21:14, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

In view of the fact that Judaism is the sum-total of its history and present, I think that even without the title of this article being "History of Judaism and sexuality" this article should not overly stress modern points of view. You seem to want to turn this article into into "Jews and sexuality", and that is also wrong: this article is about the point of view of Judaism as a religion, not about the points of view of Jews. Debresser (talk) 18:47, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

This article is about Judaism and sexuality. But what is Judaism?

Debresser, you're absolutely right I strongly believe there should be an article on Jews and sexuality. The fascinating topic definitely merits an article (and this one isn't it, as you correctly pointed out). I do not have the knowledge to write it. I could perhaps write (assemble reliable sources) for "Jews and sexuality in the United States", but don't think that would be a valid stand-alone article (and it would be a lot of work, and I've got plenty of other things, arguably more important things, to work on).

But THIS article is about Judaism and sexuality. I think there's pretty much a consensus about what "sexuality" is. Not about how people should ideally behave sexually, but about what human sexuality is.

My concern is "what Judaism is this article discussing"? Jews by anyone's definition disagree about what Judaism is. It could perhaps be:

• The Judaism of King David, who is the greatest hero of Jewish history, whose star is the icon of Jews/Judaism and is on the Israeli flag. The Tanach supplies the names of eight wives of David, and if memory serves also says he had as many other wives/female sexual partners as he wanted. Some Jews argue that in addition, David's love for Jonathan was sexual, which the Tanach does not say, at least not openly. Other Jews argue that it wasn't and the Tanakh doesn't even imply it was. A topic for debate by those more learned than I. But the question is "what was the Judaism of King David, or of his day?" Or are we to argue that King David did not practice Judaism, or that his version of Judaism has been declared passé, invalid. But by who? (Maimonides? Because the Atemple was destroyed?)
• Judaism as defined by the Sanhedrin
• Judaism as defined by the Shulchan Aruch
• Halakhic Judaism. But then there is more than one version of halakha, isn't there. At least the WP article says so. Ashkenazic halacha, Sephardic halakha, Mizrahi halakha, etc.
• Halacha as defined by the chief rabbinate of Israel in 2015
• Judaism as defined by the very numerous Reform Jews
• Judaism as it is defined by the Progressive Movement in Israel?

Perhaps you could add to this list. The Rebbe's version of Judaism? My point is that whatever your personal belief is that's fine, that's between you and ha-Shem. But as an editor of Misplaced Pages you have to take a neutral POV. The point I'm making is that by privileging halakhic Judiasm as the sum total of what Judaism is (please correct me if that's not precisely right), you are not displaying a neutral POV.

A principle of WP that I much admire is "assume the best". So I'm assuming that this had not occurred to you, you thought you HAD a neutral POV. That the idea that someone might say "I'm a Jew, you agree I am, or assume for the sake of argument I am, but I don't think Judaism and halacha (correct me again if I haven't got it precisely right) are the same thing". You're right and I'm wrong? According to whom? And what gives he/she/them the right to make that decision? Gee, this is getting philosophical. I guess that's good.

What I will ask of you is similarly to assume the best of me, that I believe it is my responsibility as a Jew and as a WP editor to raise this question. And not attribute it to my own sexual behavior, or interests, which, whatever their vices or their virtues, are totally irrelevant. deisenbe (talk)

All: I'm inclined to think that the balance in the other article is (qualitatively) reasonable. But if that's to be done here, someone has to write it. It's not something I have enough expertise to write. StevenJ81 (talk) 13:59, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

I made this a subsection of the previous section, since I think it is really a continuation of it. As to the question itself, I do not think we need an article "Jews and sexuality", in the sense that we do not need to know the opinion of every Jews dead or alive on the subject of sexuality. That is the what I had in mind. Debresser (talk) 13:38, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

St Aquinas

Surely he knows more about Christian beliefs than a Jewish rabbi right? I'll just have to find a secondary source that states his statements.112.211.214.39 (talk) 12:24, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

No personal attacks, please. Issue one I have with this edit is that it uses a primary source. That is not recommended on Misplaced Pages. Another issue is that Thomas of Aquinas was a church philosopher, but he didn't invent the idea, and there exist other views on the issue. Lastly, the simpler we keep the statement, the better it is IMHO. After all, this article is not about Christianity. Debresser (talk) 13:35, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

I never had any intention of attacking anyone, I just asserted that a Christian saint would know more about his religion than someone who is not a member of that particular religion ( in this case a Jew); it is a reasonable assertion, right?112.211.214.39 (talk) 15:58, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

If there exist other views on the issue, shouldn't we just put "certain christian views" instead of "Christianity."112.211.214.39 (talk) 15:58, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Chritianity vs. Catholicism

I'm the one who made the change to Catholicism, I've restored it, and I'm going to defend it. To identify the Catholic (including St. Thomas) tradition with the Christian tradition is just as wrong as identifying Orthodox Judaism with Judaism. If you go back, sure, there are some versions of Protestanism, like Calvinism, that were pretty sex-hostile. But Martin Luther was (marital) sex-positive. A growing number of Protestant denominations support or perform gay marriage. None has the Catholic church's blanket prohibition of birth control devices or medicines. None has Catholicism's prohibition of divorce. Many are supportive of abortion, which Catholicism views as murder.

The article is, from its title, not about the history of these questions, except as background. It's about the present.

If this is reverted again I plan to request outside intervention. deisenbe (talk) 14:33, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Since virtually all denominations of Christianity have "an issue" with sex, see original sin and Religion_and_sexuality#Christianity, the previous, stable version should be preferred.

Adding a primary source is never a good idea, especially when that source is from the Middle Ages. All the more so, since the source is indeed Catholic, so can shed no light on the issue in other Christian denominations. Debresser (talk) 17:11, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

It is not true that "virtually all Christian denominations have an 'issue' with sex". Not today. deisenbe (talk) 14:09, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Theology tends to change only slowly. As it should, by the way. So I have to seriously doubt the implication that the theory of original sin has changed much recently. If you can show me wrong, I'd be interesting in reading up about the subject. Debresser (talk) 19:16, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

More self-serving, non-impartial editing by DeBresser

Once again you're equating religion with theology. That theology changes slowly, is irrevelant. Religions can change quickly. The "theory of original sin" hasn't changed much, but that's not the point. The point is that it is nowhere as widespread as it used to be.

I don't know if this is typical of a Haredi rabbi (not of some types of rabbis, for sure), but you constantly look at written sources from long ago, and all but ignore what is going on today. Lack of neutral POV.

Like when you accused me of an ad hominem attack, then went on to make a more inflammatory one yourself. Against me.

Your claim that I should not have restored Catholicism because of talk page discussion is self-serving. The opposition is from you and only you. No one on the talk page supports you. You're the one being disruptive. deisenbe (talk)

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