Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 12:49, 2 May 2017

• WP:ANI
• WP:AN/I

This page is for urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems.

• Before posting:
  • Read these tips for dealing with incivility
  • If the issue concerns a specific user, try discussing it with them on their talk page
  • Try dispute resolution
  • Just want an admin? Contact a recently active admin directly.
• Be brief and include diffs demonstrating the problem
• Do not report breaches of personal information on this highly visible page – instead go to Requests for oversight.

When starting a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page; pinging is not enough.
You may use {{subst:ANI-notice}} ~~~~ to do so.

Closed discussions are usually not archived for at least 24 hours. Routine matters might be archived more quickly; complex or controversial matters should remain longer. Sections inactive for 72 hours are archived automatically by Lowercase sigmabot III. Editors unable to edit here are sent to the /Non-autoconfirmed posts subpage. (archives, search)

• Voluntary RfAs after resignation
• Allowing page movers to enable two-factor authentication
• Rewriting the guideline Misplaced Pages:Please do not bite the newcomers
• Should comments made using LLMs or chatbots be discounted or even removed?

Roman Spinner editing dab pages in breach of ban

Roman Spinner (talk · contribs) was banned from editing dab pages in February 2016. They are currently involved in a messy repeated AfD for a dab page, in the course of which they substantially altered the content of the page while nominating it (for the 2nd time) for AfD.

Perhaps their ban on editing dab pages should be extended to a ban on nominating dab pages for any sort of deletion (CSD, PROD, AfD), to keep them away from this area of editing in which they seem to cause problems for the encyclopedia. Failing that, they need to be reminded that editing a dab page is editing a dab page, even if the same edit nominates it for AfD. PamD 09:32, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

• Blatant breach of ban, so I have blocked for 48 hours (although I don't think adding an AFD header as part of the nomination process should be considered on its own as enough to break the ban on 'editing'). I support extending the ban to nominating for deletion too. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:49, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Maybe he could look at archiving that massive talkpage when the block expires. Lugnuts 12:12, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

For clarification, as Roman Spinner seems unclear about it too, the diff I cited in the initial post was not just adding an AfD header: he made substantial changes to the dab page in the same edit. PamD 16:40, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Roman has now explained below that the substantial edit was accidental. It illustrates the importance of checking the effect of any edit, including those which are automated or shortcuts. PamD 12:41, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

I suggest an amendment to the original ban. I believe it left him able to edit on disambiguation talk pages. This has led to many move discussions, and I think the ban should included deletion discussions and talk pages. One example of my concern is Katharine Blake which Roman nominated for speedy deletion three times (it is a redirect to a dab), and created move discussions (see Talk:Catherine Blake and Talk:Catherine Blake (disambiguation), keeping on and on despite lack of support. Roman just doesn't seem to be able to stop himself. Best wishes, Boleyn (talk) 14:05, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Well at that point you might as well make it a topic ban from all DAB pages/discussions. Very little wriggle-room there. Only in death does duty end (talk) 14:08, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

I agree, perhaps explicitly covering redirects to dabs too. Boleyn (talk) 14:57, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

• I'd support extending this ban to "Misplaced Pages disambiguation, broadly construed". That ought to clearly cover the relevant areas being disrupted: if it has to do with disambiguation, it's off-limits. The problem seems at the core to be WP:IDHT: when told explicitly that what they're doing is wrong, Roman Spinner ignores the advice and does the wrong thing anyway, often repeatedly. Immediately renominating Ivan Saric for deletion after being told that AFD is the wrong venue to propose a merge is just the latest example of this years-long pattern. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 16:07, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Boleyn, i believe you misremember the result; the linked discussion, while the initial proposal was not specific about talk pages, modified the proposal to explicitly include them, which Katie's close clearly states. That minor point aside, however, i would fully support the proposal above, to ban Roman from disambiguation altogether. Some of his work is useful, but the continued wrong actions, even after being shown they are wrong, is not helpful at all, and the project should be protected from them. Happy days, Lindsay 11:38, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

LindsayH, I appreciate your kind characterization at the start of the sentence, "Some of his work is useful", however the remainder of the sentence, "but the continued wrong actions, even after being shown they are wrong, is not helpful at all, and the project should be protected from them", leaves me puzzled. Other than this unfortunate sole exception over the entire course of the year and two months from the time the dab page topic ban was imposed, what are those "continued wrong actions" that threaten Misplaced Pages's integrity and where/how has it been "shown that they are wrong"? —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 12:02, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

• Comment from OP: given Roman's replies and explanation of the accidental nature of his substantial edit to a dab page, I'd be happy to see this dicussion closed now with no further action - but other editors @Boleyn: @Ivanvector: @Boing! said Zebedee: @LindsayH:might wish to continue. PamD 14:05, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

• Yes, I'm happy to close this now - after the comments below, I agree there's no further action needed. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:12, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

• Yes, that's fine by me. To my mind, a ban from editing disambiguation pages includes a restriction from discussion processes which affect their content, such as suggesting that two dab pages be merged, but if that is not the intent behind the topic ban (I have not read that discussion in great detail) then no further sanction is required. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 14:43, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Personally I disagree, PamD, Ivanvector, Boing! said Zebedee, LindsayH. The original ban stated: Consensus is clear: Roman Spinner is banned from editing disambiguation pages and their associated talk pages (closed by KrakatoaKatie. This includes creating new dab pages. Although no alternative mechanism to allow RS to propose changes to dab pages was discussed, I suggest that Roman Spinner create a sandbox for that purpose if he so desires. Roman has continually broken this ANI by editing their 'associated talk pages', more than a dozen times in the last month. This is not a one-off infraction of the last ANI. I suggest if Roman sees something of concern, he picks an editor to drop a line to and ask to look at it. This is a persistent violation of the original ANI - I propose simply that he is made to keep to the original decision of the original ANI. Boleyn (talk) 16:48, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Roman Spinner's reply

After seeing the proposed draconian editing sanctions mentioned above, I must at least remind all participants in this discussion that, in the one year and two months that my topic ban has lasted, this is the first and only dab which I have edited. Thus, even the section header, "Roman Spinner editing dab pages in breach of ban", may be modified to "…has edited one page…"

Since it wasn't mentioned in the above discussion, I should also indicate, for the record, that the topic ban was solely related to length of dab page entries and did not involve any interaction infractions such as incivility, harassment, edit warring, etc. In fact, during the 11 years and 3 months that I have edited Misplaced Pages on a nearly-daily basis, the February 2016 ANI and the related one above, are the only instances that I been taken to ANI. Also, the 48-hour ban that has just ended is the first and only time that I have been banned.

The regrettable and impulsive decision to edit the Ivan Šarić dab page stemmed from frustration at my inability to call attention regarding the need for a merger of the Ivan Saric and Ivan Šarić dabs and, after being informed that Talk:Ivan Šarić#Requested move 6 April 2017 is not the appropriate venue and, subsequently, after the deletion of the merger tags I had placed at the two dabs, I decided to try the AfD.

Even though this decision brought me the 48-hour ban and the above threats of editing sanctions, if there is at least a bright spot in this, it is that the resulting attention brought help from Ivanvector who did exactly what needed to be done. If not for that, there would still be two dab pages where one would suffice.

The only other complaint mentioned above appears to be related to my earlier nomination of Catherine Blake which seems an odd choice to bring up as an example since Boleyn was the first editor at that discussion who offered to support a variant of my nomination. My proposals at those nominations also had some additional support and there was no suggestion of any wrongdoing or inappropriateness on my part.

Taking a wider view, a single-page violation of the topic ban over a period of 14 months, with the violation (insertion of AfD template) not even related to the reason for the ban (length of dab page entries) should not bring forth threats of a much-wider editing ban in areas (nominations, voting, discussions) where I may be able to contribute. Those areas are completely unrelated to the very-narrowly formulated ban and no arguments above specify why, in addition to the 48-hour ban, I should be further sanctioned in such a harsh manner. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 11:32, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Comment on the above The diff I cited in the initial post here was not just "insertion of AfD template": you substantially altered the dab page at the same time. PamD 16:39, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

In attempting to make my reply, above, as brief as possible while including all the key elements, I omitted an explanation relating to your lead paragraph mention that I "substantially altered the content" of the dab page. As I previously indicated, I made no edits to the content of the Ivan Šarić dab page and the addition of the AfD template represented the sole change I made there. Unfortunately, however, instead of adding the AfD template manually at 19:05, 23 April 2017, I took the shortcut of clicking on my earlier edit of 05:27, 23 April 2017 without realizing that in between those two timestamps, three edits had already been made to the page. Thus, I accidentally restored the page to its 05:27, 23 April 2017 form and did not know that it also automatically resulted in those changes until you pointed it out. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 12:02, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Ah. That illustrates the importance of checking the effect of any edits one does, especially using any sort of automation or "shortcut". That substantial edit of yours, accidental as it may have been, was the main thing which triggered this whole thread. PamD 12:38, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Response from another editor

Just looking at your edits for the last 3 weeks, I saw 13 separate bits of editing around dabs from you: 2 AfDs and 11 move proposals which involved moving dabs - There was the proposed move of 7 dabs at Talk:Kalinin, Talk:Pamela Lee (disambiguation), Talk:Kevin McCarthy (California politician), Talk:Dennis Johnson (disambiguation), Talk:Don Mason (baseball). Of the 13, 12 were closed as a straight no or no consensus. I warned you some time ago that you were breaching the ban, but you replied that you were allowed to when it came to these types of discussions and I took that at face value without re-reading the ANI.

I would also say that the behaviour that led to the last ANI was not so much the overlengthy entries, but that you just wouldn't listen, over a period of years. Your response gives me no indication that there has been a change. Boleyn (talk) 15:30, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

I participated at the Talk:Ivan Šarić RM, and I agree that Roman messed the followup badly – instead of just redirecting one dab to the other (a routine action that emerged from the discussion, and that just nobody took upon themselves to execute), he opened no less than two consecutive AfDs. Still, I think the complete topic ban on dab pages is a bit of overkill. Those RM proposals were all within reason, and the last two were closed in favor of his proposed move, while the Talk:Kalinin one was rejected largely on procedural grounds (that mass nomination was inappropriate). I am not aware of history of his topic ban. No such user (talk) 10:59, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for mentioning the RM proposals. As for the Ivan Šarić AfD, I did indeed mess up badly on that one and I apologize to all participants here for having to spend time discussing it as a result. In my frustration at being prevented by the topic ban from merging the Ivan Saric and Ivan Šarić dab as was ultimately done so quickly and easily by Ivanvector, I took the unwise and rash step of re-adding the AfD template, instead of the wise step of posting at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Disambiguation and asking other Wikipedians for help in unifying the two dabs.

However, I would like to assure participants that such rashness is very atypical of me and represents a nearly unique occurrence. In my entire 11 years and 3 months on Misplaced Pages, I have never engaged in edit warring, 3RR or incivility and certainly have no pattern of any such behavior. The topic ban (with length of dab entries as the sole reason) has already lasted a year and two months and this single unfortunate incident should not be used as a reason for expanding the ban and barring me from editing in ever-wider swaths of Misplaced Pages. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 13:12, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

• We done here? d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 02:25, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Roman Spinner topic ban modification proposal (edit break)

• Support modifing TBan to "broadly construed". This is crazy stuff. Those RMs were a complete waste of time. There is really no sound or logical reason that any editor cannot stay away from dabs. Softlavender (talk) 12:57, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

It should be noted that the current issue, as it was brought to ANI, had been entirely focused upon the editing of a single dab page — Ivan Šarić — with no complaints raised regarding the length of individual entries on that page. Moreover, creation of RMs or participation in RMs had no connection with the reason for the topic ban which solely concerned the length of dab page entries. Nor has anyone had any complaints regarding the content of argumentation within the RM discussions. In fact, among the five RMs mentioned above, two (Talk:Kevin McCarthy (California politician) and Talk:Don Mason (baseball)) are not even dab pages. Another one among those five RMs mentioned above — Talk:Dennis Johnson (disambiguation) — I did not even initiate. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 22:23, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

To repeat what Boleyn said above, "Just looking at your edits for the last 3 weeks, I saw 13 separate bits of editing around dabs from you: 2 AfDs and 11 move proposals which involved moving dabs - There was the proposed move of 7 dabs at Talk:Kalinin, Talk:Pamela Lee (disambiguation), Talk:Kevin McCarthy (California politician), Talk:Dennis Johnson (disambiguation), Talk:Don Mason (baseball). Of the 13, 12 were closed as a straight no or no consensus. I warned you some time ago that you were breaching the ban, but you replied that you were allowed to when it came to these types of discussions and I took that at face value without re-reading the ANI.

I would also say that the behaviour that led to the last ANI was not so much the overlengthy entries, but that you just wouldn't listen, over a period of years. Your response gives me no indication that there has been a change. Boleyn (talk) 15:30, 26 April 2017 (UTC)". Despite your claims to the contrary, all of those very definitely were directly about disambiguation pages. You should not be initiating, participating, or editing in those matters. As I mentioned above, there is really no sound or logical reason that any editor cannot stay away from disambiguations. -- Softlavender (talk) 00:57, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

• Support this proposal - closer please note I've both proposed this and retracted the proposal above, but on reading the additional comments posted by Boleyn and Softlavender afterwards, as well as reviewing the original close, I have to agree that a more broad Tban is necessary. The original topic ban restricted Roman Spinner from edits to dab pages and their talk pages, but did not address discussions related to disambiguation pages in other locations (such as in XfD venues or requested moves), and in effect this has left a loophole through which he has been able to continue editing dabs by proxy. However, it is clear from that discussion that the community expressed frustration with Roman Spinner's edits related to the disambiguation function rather than specifically from disambiguation pages, which is not covered in the wording of KrakatoaKatie's closing statement. It's clear from this discussion that his edits regarding disambiguation continue to be a problem. Modifying the topic ban to "Misplaced Pages disambiguation, broadly construed" makes very clear that Roman Spinner may not participate in changes to disambiguation pages by any means. The only exception I propose is clear permission to create or modify a wikilink to a disambiguation page, as editing could be quite difficult otherwise. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 01:28, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Additional statement from Roman Spinner

1) The above comments have left the completely unfounded impression that I must be a serial violator of disambiguation page content, that I must regularly disregard numerous postings of advice and warning addressed to me, that I must repeatedly do the wrong thing, that I simply don't get it and that the only way to maintain Misplaced Pages's integrity in this area is to completely bar me from having any contact with dab pages, including banning from participation in voting and discussions related to dab pages.

2) Since the comments don't directly address the details of my ban, let me reiterate once again that the sole reason I was brought to ANI in February 2016 and ultimately topic banned was the length of my dab page entries.

3) At the time I made my first edit, on January 22, 2006, dab pages were fairly unstructured, with a number of entries presented in an overlong manner. I took the more-detailed entries as a model for creating my own dab page entries, but limited the length of my entries to three-quarters of a single line of text, as it appeared on my screen. Between January 22, 2006 and my 10th WikiBirthday on January 22, 2016, only 4 Wikipedians posted on my talk page, mentioning that my dab page entries tended to be overly long. I responded to each of the 4 editors, taking care to explain in detail my dab page editing style. Even more tellingly, during a four-year period, between 2008 and 2012, when I edited hundreds of dab pages, not a single Wikipedian communicated with me on the subject.

4) In fact, the first time I encountered sustained opposition regarding the length of my dab page entries was 3 weeks after my 10th Wikibirthday when I was taken to ANI and the discussion participants roundly disagreed with the length of my entries and voted to ban me from editing dab pages.

5) As can be seen in that February 2016 discussion, Boleyn made a comment which ended with a question directed at me, "Are you going to stop editing dab pages in this way? Boleyn (talk) 21:43, 16 February 2016 (UTC)". My reply was, "Yes, of course, I will stop. Judging by the comments, I am on the losing side of this argument. As I wrote near the end of my April 2014 lengthy reply to your posting, "hese disambiguation pages do not come easily to me and I spend hours, sometimes days, working on single long one…" Faced with a chorus of disapproval, it would be at least counterproductive, if not masochistic, to expend so much energy/effort for such meager effect. All my future entries will be pared to the bone -- vital dates/defining date, nationality and profession/function/venue. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 18:18, 17 February 2016 (UTC)".

7) My reply, however, made no difference and the ban was implemented.

8) On a purely objective level, other than for the element of continued punishment, there has been no need for the topic ban since the day it was imposed, and the notion that I "don't listen" or that I "can't help myself" stems from conflating the topic of longer entries with the experience of typical topic bans imposed upon the social, historical, scientific or linguistic edit warriors who constantly spar over abortion, genocide, annexation of territory, climate change or diacritical marks over names. Since no continuing complaint, other than the length of entries, has ever been lodged against me, and (other than this single unfortunate occurrence which did not involve length of entries) it has been more than a year since I edited a dab page, if/when the topic ban is lifted, it would be extremely simple to determine whether my dab page entries are sufficiently brief to fall in alignment with my reply to Boleyn's question in the 2016 ANI.

9) As for "I warned you some time ago that you were breaching the ban, but you replied that you were allowed to when it came to these types of discussions and I took that at face value without re-reading the ANI.", my reply was actually more nuanced and conciliatory, indicating that if you feel I am incorrect in my assumption that I am allowed to participate in RMs and that the topic ban is total, please feel free to visit the ANI and I will comply with the decision there.

10) In the end, what should be stressed most forcefully is that other than lengthening dab page entries in the past, there have never been any accusations of incivility, edit warring or breach of talk page etiquette . Thus, there is simply no basis for proposing broad-based bans on taking part in dab page discussion and voting when no evidence has been presented that there had ever been any problem or dissatisfaction within those venues. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 12:29, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Iran or Persia

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

HistoryofIran (talk · contribs) recently removed Category:6th-century BC Persian people in favor of Category:6th-century BC Iranian people on a lot of articles, while making that category a soft-redirect. I reverted part of them (tried to catch as many as I could), and then the editor posted on my talkpage, to which I replied, and at the same time started an edit war at Category:6th-century BC Iranian people,, ignoring my call to discuss first and claiming that this is "basically 3rd grade stuff". Please explain to this editor that he must discuss such mass edits before implementing them, or at least after he has been called to discuss. User notified on talkapge, but notification removed with claim "Making an issue out of nothing, absolutely silly. I am not going to take part in that.", so not responsive. Instead he prefers to remind me of my "recent" block for edit warring. Debresser (talk) 15:14, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Basically Debresser here is making an huge issue out of nothing. I already said my stuff here . I am honestly not interested to take part in something that shouldn't be a problem - also, I find it funny how he simply started mass-revert crusade and now is basically avoiding to discuss with me about his actions. With all due respect, he should talk to me about it, not hide behind the users here. And yes, it is important to note that he has been recently blocked due to edit-warring.

"but notification removed with claim "Making an issue out of nothing, absolutely silly. I am not going to take part in that.", so not responsive. Instead he prefers to remind me of my "recent" block for edit warring."

Well that's clearly wrong, since I wrote other stuff to you as well actually regarding the issue, which you simply chose to ignore. If you're gonna mass-revert several articles, then you should also take the responsibilty and discuss with the user about it. Every normal person would get frustrated by that, obviously. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:22, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

I am not avoiding discussion. To the contrary, I called on you to start a discussion instead of edit warring, and you have not done so. you even started to edit war. Please understand that posting on my talkpage is not "discussing". Discussions should be posted at the appropriate places, like WP:IRAN, WP:HISTORY, not on my talkpage. Debresser (talk) 15:29, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

In all honesty, that's not really a good excuse. You still had time to respond to me, which you chose not to. Take responsibility for something you have done, that's all I am going to say. Also, if you're that of a constructive user, you wouldn't have started a mass-revert crusade, but would have written to me first, and asked why I did those edits. Not to mention I even gave a proper, non-biased justification for my edits. Also, you might wanna take a look here . You brought this issue up to Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents way too early, and should have sit down and talked with me first. Furthermore, regarding me 'starting a edit-war' , I only corrected a huge error, it was a no-brainer to me tbh - you might wanna take a look here ; This is why you write to the talk page of the user about a topic he is widely more knowledgeable about before making 11 reverts. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:36, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

I left you an explanation in an edit summary, which was reason for you to undo it. I responded to your message on my talkpage, and still you reverted. So I had no choice but to take you here, which - wonder, oh wonder - instantly had the desired effect of stopping you. Now, please discuss this somewhere, post a link to the discussion here, and I am sure admins will close this soon enough as "requiring no action". Debresser (talk) 15:57, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Oh yeah, I am sorry I didn't look at every edit summary of your 11 reverts which made my notification box explode. That's what talk pages are for mate. Also, you may have responded on your talk page, but you still avoided my justification for doing those edits, and is still doing so. --HistoryofIran (talk) 16:02, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

You really don't seem to get it. This is not the place for a content dispute. For that, please open a proper discussion, either on one of those WikiProjects or at WP:CFD. This page is for the behavioral issue. Debresser (talk) 16:05, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Couldn't care less, I just am explaining my actions. Nope, not going to post on WikiProjects or at WP.CFD, but in the talk page of the category itself (WP:DISCUSSFAIL). --HistoryofIran (talk) 16:08, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

HistoryofIran's contributions don't look to encouraging. His conduct with other users isn't too encouraging either, in case your'e wondering what that text is, he's saying :

"LouisAragon Aleykum Salam! I write my own history with the culture of other nations? You're donkeys, you Persians, no time to write history! I am writing to you to in order to stop stealing the history of the Turks, you bastards. !!" struck out as incorrect, this was done by another user,not History of Iran

This recent comment to Debresser wasn't all that great either. He looks to have recieved a block (admittedly back in 2016 (May 2016) ) for edit warning in a Persian topic, and there are a few more besides this one, further back, and he looks like he's heading back into that territory again. I'm thinking possibly a TBAN for him might be forthcoming.  Ҝ Ø Ƽ Ħ  20:14, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

KoshVorlon: You're completely right, my contributions don't look encouraging at all :). Besides, that text wasn't written by me, but by this guy, who has a history of insulting people in another language, hence why he got banned . You're basically falsely accusing me of saying something I literally didn't say. Why would I insult my own ethnicity? Also, where do you see that I am 'heading back into that territory' by looking at my contributions besides the issue with Debresser ? Since when did expanding articles become disruptive? I will admit that I could have been more gentle when writing to Debresser, but I wasn't outright hostile towards him, nor did I insult him or anything like that. It's quite normal to get frustrated when a person makes 11 reverts and then refuses to discuss about it. --HistoryofIran (talk) 20:34, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

@KoshVorlon: that "comment", which you highlighted here, was made by an indeffed user named "Rufet Turkmen", not user HistoryofIran. What you just did, was copying the translation I added on admin Ymblanter's talk page (2 April 2017), word for word verbatim, and presenting it right here as if they are HistoryofIran's words. Please strike your accussation once you read this. Thanks - LouisAragon (talk) 21:09, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

And what's more interesing about this whole "case", is that user "Debresser" never had an actual dialogue about the matter on his talk page, nor on the talk page of any of the articles in question (not counting the accusation of vandalism straight off the bat). Sure, "HistoryofIran" ignored BRD (which isn't even a guideline/policy), but its "Debresser" who found his way to this drama board pretty much right away. That much said about "proper editing". - LouisAragon (talk) 21:23, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Also, FYI, all these 5th/6th-centuries BC Persian people categories were made by an user who has a long history of tendentious editing, and who was forcefully placed under a mentor until the recent past. I don't blame HistoryofIran, who has single handedly done most work on Iranian-related aticles for years, for challenging them. Yet user Debresser, who, as far as I can see, has barely ever made any content edits to Iranian-related articles, was there swiftly to report HistoryofIran, to a drama board. Go figure. Overhasty attempt to get rid of someone, thats what this is all about IMHO. - LouisAragon (talk) 21:23, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

WP:ANI is not a "drama board", but is the place where editors go when they have to deal with edit warriors who are not willing to discuss. The fact that I don't edit Iranian-related articles that much (just a few), has nothing to do with this. Nobody owns any section of Misplaced Pages. Debresser (talk) 04:59, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Well you're making it like a drama board, this shouldn't have been an issue from the start. Hmmm, who is the edit warrior, me, or the person who did over 11 reverts? Who is not willing to discuss, me, or the person who has time to revert/edit and write here, whilst still not responding to my justifcation (most likely because you don't have anything proper to say tbh). It was me who wanted to discuss from the start, whilst you ignored me and then brought this issue to this board. Also, did I ever accuse you randomly of vandalism? No? Did you do that to me? Yes? Well I think we've found out who the disruptive editor is. --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:02, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

HoI is a good editor and he does good contributions to Iranian-related articles. However, I don't understand why he removed that category from several Achaemenid articles like Cyrus the Great? Weren't Cyrus and Achaemenids Persian? Is that category unnecessary? Why? --Wario-Man (talk) 15:28, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

I did that because that category gives limited options compared to the Category:6th-century BC Iranian people. A lot of Iranians weren't Persians (but according to Debresser, it seems that all Iranians are Persian , which is heavily incorrect ofc). A good example is Mandane of Media, who was of Iranian Median descent, but yet Debresser reverted my edit on that article as well, which clearly shows that he didn't even take a proper look at the articles he reverted, but reverted for the sake of reverting, imho. --HistoryofIran (talk) 16:03, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

In view of the fact that HistoryofIran still tries to make the point that I am the problematic editor, which he explains with various accusations that have no leg to stand on, despite the fact that he is the editor who unilaterally decided to make tens of undiscussed changes related to categorization of a group of articles, refused to discuss them when he was reverted and asked to discuss, and still has not opened a discussion about them, I propose that this editor be temporarily (blocked or) topic banned, till such time as he shows he understands the error of his ways as well as his willingness to discuss these edits and similar edits in the future. Debresser (talk) 16:40, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Pretty sure I was the one that wanted to discuss in the first place - it was your own choice to not reply to me, hence you are the one that refused to discuss, not me. Of course I haven't opened a discussion about it when there's an ongoing issue here, which shouldn't have been an issue in the first place if you chose to reply to me instead avoiding my argument for those edits. Obviously you still have time to answer back, so don't make it look like I am the one refusing to talk. Also, pretty sure my 'accusations' are pretty solid, especially the Mandane of Media part. Heck, my reason for those edits are literally up above, you're welcome to answer back. --HistoryofIran (talk) 16:57, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

I agree with JJBers. This is more of a content dispute concerning categories and should be discussed on article talk pages. Instead of Debresser making a demand for discussion on the talk page, why have they not started a discussion? This discussion should be closed and both Debresser and HistoryofIran should be expected to discuss this out on the appropriate article talk page(s). --Kansas Bear (talk) 17:19, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Absolutely agree - I'll create a section on the talk page of Category:6th-century BC Persian people right after this discussion has been closed. --HistoryofIran (talk) 21:56, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Why only "after" this discussion is closed? I'd say that is additional proof of your bad faith. Debresser (talk) 11:18, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

How is that proof somehow? I just think it would be more suitable that way, you might want to calm down. Fine, I'll create a discussion when I am home, where I'll be eagerly waiting for your response.

• This looks like a WP:CfD issue to me. Pinging BrownHairedGirl for assistance. Softlavender (talk) 07:34, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

I too think that the category talkpage is not the optimal place for such a discussion. There exists WP:CFD and Template:Cfm for proposing category merges. One of the reasons is that category talkpages are usually not visited by many editors. Unfortunately, HistoryofIran is not inclined to take any good advice from me. Debresser (talk) 11:18, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

"Good advice" that's subjective. Sounds more like a way for you to avoid taking part in this issue further imho.— Preceding unsigned comment added by HistoryofIran (talk • contribs)

You really don't get it. Poor you. I came here to report a behavioral issue. I do not have to discuss any content issue with you. In addition, you refuse for the third day now to open a discussion about it, insisting without any basis in policy or custom, that you want this discussion closed first. Debresser (talk) 14:41, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Poor you (speaking in your language now), you should have thought about that before making 11 swift reverts without any form for discussion, you're no saint yourself. Don't assume you're the boss of Misplaced Pages. I haven't 'refused' anything, don't put false words in my mouth, thanks. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:39, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

I started a thread on Category talk:6th-century BC Persian people about this. —JJBers 15:10, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Thanks JJBers, I'll get to it right away. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:39, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

• Debresser, you are the one that started this ANI thread, and you should be the one that takes it (and should have taken it in the first place) to WP:CFD. Please do that, so this unnecessary and ill-placed content dispute thread can be closed here. Softlavender (talk) 01:23, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

@Softlavender Huh? These edits weren't my idea! Why should I take it to Cfd? Debresser (talk) 11:40, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

You are making the complaint. You filed the complaint in the wrong venue. This is not the venue for a content dispute. So nothing is going to happen here. If you want something to happen, file your complaint or suggestion or request in the correct venue, which would be WP:CfD -- Categories for Discussion. Softlavender (talk) 00:35, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Feel free to re-read my first post, and you'll see I came here only because of the behavioral issue. Debresser (talk) 17:36, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

User:Creuzbourg and User:K.e.coffman Talk:Hans-Ulrich Rudel

Establishing a case of WP: Tag team I think. They have established a two-editor consensus, that declares sources unreliable in their personal opinion. They insist and deleting swathes of information, and retaining a tag of "unreliable sources", with no support from the historiography. I am hoping for some sort of resolution, nothing more. Dapi89 (talk) 17:17, 25 April 2017 (UTC)c

This is part of an editorial war already reported Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring#User:Dapi89 reported by User:K.e.coffman¨ I suppose its better if all matters are resolved in one forum. Otherwise, I think its rather a case of WP:OWN on behalf of User:Dapi89, proven by such statements by him as: Editors opinions count for nothing and I will do as I please. There are three editors who agrees. Creuzbourg (talk) 17:26, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Dishonest. I said I will do as I please on my talk page, not the article. Also, our collecrive opinions dont matter, its the sources that should prevail. That is the point i made quite clearly. Please dont lie. Dapi89 (talk) 17:51, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

@Dapi89:, you are required to notify users when starting a discussion about them, see the big orange edit notice at the top of the edit page. I have notified them both for you. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 17:46, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Somehow I feel I am involved. I did not edit the article, but contributed on the talk page. I notice that Dapi89 has voiced the first accusation of tag teaming on 4 April 2017. Since then the editor has made no attempt of WP:DR, but confined him/herself to short comments speaking of a possible "destruction" of the article that he/she has to prevent. Thus the editor seems to perceive anyone who is not with him as being against him.(from WP:AN3RR). The editor routinely resorts to accusations. From today --Assayer (talk) 20:36, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

For the administrator who look into this case: Misplaced Pages editor Creuzbourg (person who started to mass remove material on the Rudel page) tagged the article as containing excessive intricate details and contains unreliable sources even though is a GA article that requires to meet the comprehensiveness criteria and is throughly reviewed, has also tagged with the same tags these following pages:

→ FA article: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Albert_Kesselring&type=revision&diff=777161722&oldid=776657232

→ FA article: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Werner_Mölders&type=revision&diff=777174753&oldid=776113712

→ GA article: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Adolf_Galland&type=revision&diff=777163959&oldid=776113388

→ GA article: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Erich_Hartmann&type=revision&diff=777160461&oldid=777010274

I don't believe Creuzbourg editing of these articles is being done in good faith, he acts as if he have consensus for tagging and removal of sourced material on these Featured Articles and Good Articles. In other words, from my observations he is biased and agend-driven editor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.237.138.234 (talk) 21:40, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

IP 104.237.XX, please log in to your account if you wish to attack people on ANI (or for that matter on Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Military history). Nobody believes you don't have one. Evading scrutiny on noticeboards is inappropriate. Bishonen | talk 20:12, 28 April 2017 (UTC).

I do not believe that Featured Articles and Good Articles are beyond criticism. I am not driven by any agenda. I do not normally write about WW2 German military history or biography, but tried to improve an article that I found faulty. I tagged it and started a discussion on the discussion pages. I did not want to do, what most WP-editors do, i.e. just leave a tag and run; however the tag was immediately removed, the discussion thwarted. I am immensely disappointed with Misplaced Pages that such disruptive behavior can go on and on and on, and extremely tired of the whole thing. I am perfectly willing to be banned from editing Rudel or any of above articles, as long as Dapi89 also will be banned. The articles are faulty, and the tags should not be removed before consensus is reached. Creuzbourg (talk) 22:12, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

• Update and request: Dapi89 has been blocked for 72 hours for edit warring (in a conflict which is relevant to their OP complaint of tag teaming). They ought really to be able to comment here without any cumbersome please-move-this-to-ANI system, so I've offered to unblock on condition that they edit nothing other than this ANI thread for as long as the block would have lasted. They're not online and I have to go out now. If they agree to the condition, I'd appreciate it if any passing admin would kindly unblock, with a note about conditions in the log. Bishonen | talk 10:30, 26 April 2017 (UTC).

Response by Dapi89: Then no, on principle. I'll agree to leave the Rudel page alone for 72 hours, if the same rule is also applied to the tag team operating there . Dapi89 12:34, 26 April 2017 (UTC) (Diff). Assayer (talk) 13:45, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Thank you, Assayer. So much for that, then; he'll remain blocked, AFAIC. Bishonen | talk 14:16, 26 April 2017 (UTC).

Boomerang proposal: 30-day topic ban for User:Dapi89

• WP:BOOMERANG: the reporting editor has a long pattern of uncivility and ad hominem arguments. Just today, at the WP:3RRN, he suggested that he can also provide evidence of Coffman of violating the 3RR rule on many occasions (diff). When I invited him to file such a report, he responded with On reflection, this is a case of Misplaced Pages:Tag team without providing any proof for this claim: diff. Substantiation is lacking from this report as well, which I consider frivolous & without merit.

This has been an-going pattern with the editor, please see some of the edit summaries by Dapi89 from the Rudel article as well as others:

• Undid revision 773585302 by Creuzbourg (talk) poor editing; dumbing down; no sense in removing these details; eliminated tag. Related discussion: Rudel#Intricate details. From the Talk page: BS.
• rev deletions by Coffmann, ignorant, dishonest, disruptive. Related discussion: Lütjens#External links
• ridiculous. Related discussion: Lent#Alt text.
• reverted edits by Coffman. Ignorance (...). Related discussion: Uncited content previously cited to Franz Kurowski
• spurious tag and vandalism. Related discussion: Recent edit
• "No Stephan, no. A clear lack of understanding", with comments such as: No Stephan, that is how it works. The onus is on those making the allegation to prove their case. And yes it is Stephan. In Talk:Otto Kittel#Kurowski (the article was ultimately delisted as a Good Article: GAR).
• Etc.

This pattern of behaviour is disruptive and a topic ban from Luftwaffe / WWII articles (perhaps starting at 30 days, same duration as floated at the 3RRN) may be in order: diff from 3RRN. K.e.coffman (talk) 18:10, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Although this has many appearances of a content dispute, I agree with @K.e.coffman: that @Dapi89:'s POV edits and source disputes are problematic. This user has every appearance of a WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality to preserving "their" sources and interpretations. They frequently accuse "opposing" editors of lying, rambling, dissembling, and incompetence. Their block log shows 6 blocks for disruptive editing, personal attacks, and/or harassment. This is behavior that has persisted and show no signs of abatement after these blocks. Examples just since their last block include, but are certainly not limited to (in no particular order):

• Misplaced Pages:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard/Archive_149#Talk:Malcolm Wanklyn#Dandolo.2C_.27Avieri-class_destroyer.27.2C_imaginary_submarine_etc.: ...if you can't understand that you've no chance of understanding the issue.... I don't give a damn what you think, I'll drown you in sources on the FAA if I have to.
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive897#Blatant case of WP:OWN stemming from This edit on Malcolm Wanklyn: ...cease from this. This is not a requirement and it looks awful. You're not a main contributor, so your opinions are not important. (In edit summary) and Well let me spell out the obvious; his opinions on the bibliography are not important....That is quiet clearly a lie Shem.
• Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard#Fringe source in WWII bio article ...His {User:K.e.coffman} attacks on the German-related articles, specifically related to World War II, looks like a crusade.
• Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 64#Luftwaffe of the Bundeswehr The argument he {User:K.e.coffman again} gives is that is non neutral point-of-view. I'm saying that's BS. (Disclosure: this comment made in response to me)
• Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 65#Luftwaffe of Nazi Germany No, I was in favour of only Bundesluftwaffe and objected to it's removal. No need for dishonesty. (Disclosure: I was also involved in this discussion)
• Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 204#Franz Kurowski for a GA article (WWII) ...It is beyond absurd. The opinions of a few editors on Misplaced Pages is not enough. One editor described that it as lazy analysis, I'd go further....
• Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_216 ...Other editors should beware before being drawn in to this agenda-driven bull shit.
• Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 217#Additional input sought for a GAR re sources ...Such an assumption is colossally stupid and exposes your own bias.

Dapi89 clearly has an issue with K.e.coffman and seems incapable of participating in any discussion of WWII topics, especially ones in which the latter is involved, without resorting to accusations of bias and incivility. Equally clearly, there needs to be some resolution of these issues. Since I am also tangentially involved, I refrain from suggesting any specific remedies but trust to the evaluations of the folks here. Thank you for your time. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 21:23, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

• Dapi89 and coffman clearly have issues with each other;l I'm very reluctant to say it's on DAPI. I'd say it's a two way street. The discussion to which coffman refers is often not a discussion at all but a barrage of wiki-rules and wikietiquette and wikipolicies, followed by edit summaries, links to old pages, and so on. It is a brilliant use of wikipedia's user guidelines to obfuscate the issue, which is fundamentally that one editor wants to control and limit the sources relating to Nazi-era articles, and another wants to include a wider array of sources. One editorial group wants to trim articles of all details, including things that are important, that might be of human interest, and that relate to post-war activities, and another editorial group who think those details might be interesting. auntieruth (talk) 18:41, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
• I've attempted to discuss issues with the editor previously, but it was not successful; see: User_talk:Dapi89#Edit summaries. I've also attempted to engage the user in the discussion at WP:Notability (people)#Current consensus, but apart from an erroneous claim, no dialog was offered. Another contributor pointed out the personal attacks (Talk page), but the response was: I'm not going to rephrase. There is a history of disruption with this editor and I will make the point in which ever way I like and the standard ad hominem about the suspect agendas of arch-polemicists. Etc. K.e.coffman (talk) 23:13, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

• Comment -- despite being warned about a potential block and / or while blocked, User:Dapi89 has continued to cast aspersions and belittle other editors, as in

• cant seem to distinguish the wood from the trees (diff);
• it appears as if you have taken sides (diff);
• Dishonest. (...) Please dont lie (diff).

He has offered no substantiation to the claims at this ANI discussion, while insisting that there's a tag team operating at the Rudel article. I have concerns that once unblocked in the next 36 hours, the user would continue this pattern of behaviour, and I thus reiterate my topic ban proposal. K.e.coffman (talk) 11:16, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

• Support TB Luftwaffe Length of time is immaterial to me. And an instant 24 the next time he is incivil or makes PA/aspersions.L3X1 (distant write) 13:11, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose TB Luftwaffe This argument between DAPI and 2 other editors seems to have degenerated on all sides, and I object to banning a professional historian who specializes in aerial warfare. auntieruth (talk) 14:45, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

• It's not just two other editors, as documented above. While this particular incident started with Dapi89's accusation of tag-teaming against two editors, but his bad-faith accusations over many, many WWII content disputes are not limited by target. The statement "degenerated on all sides" is also an apparent mis-interpretation of events. In this dispute, as in others involving Dapi89, his interlocutors have refrained from the personal attacks and incivility that are clear in his own statements. As to the professional historian charge, even professionals are expected to edit by consensus and good sources. Every time Dapi89's sources are challenged he becomes very, well, unprofessional. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib)

• not sure who posted this, but I will say that the whole discussion is out of control. I'm more likely to support an "all fighters to their corners" approach to give everyone a breather. Including those of us who are trying to keep up with the opus-like volume of material posted on why such and such is bad, or good, or problematic. auntieruth (talk) 15:00, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

• You're correct, I missed adding my sig. Apologies and added now. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 15:02, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

• The allegations of incessant bickering (diff) & the discussion having degenerated on all sides are without merit. @Auntieruth55: please provide diffs to substantiate this statement; alternatively, please strike it. Thank you. K.e.coffman (talk) 16:18, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

• I refer you to your own posts. This demonstrates incessant bickering. Every week I'm reviewing something that you're editing; some of your material is very good, especially on the Russian and Ukrainian fronts.--I like it very much. As for the "diffs", I don't have time. Papers to grade, exams to write, articles to edit, reviews to do. Anyone looking at the history of the pages in question can see it. As for degenerating, the name calling -- whoever does it-- needs to stop. The bickering is not helpful, No one has time for it, and I wish it would stop. auntieruth (talk) 20:04, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

• Auntieruth, I understand you may well have better things to do in real life than to provide evidence (diffs) for your accusations against K.e.coffman. But in such a case, the proper course of action is to refrain from posting those accusations. Seriously. I don't see how K.e.coffman is to be expected to answer something so unspecific as "your own posts ... demonstrate incessant bickering". Especially since uninvolved editors such as me can see K.e.coffman's posts, they're right above, and I don't see any bickering in them. Except indeed in their many quotations of bickering and intemperate remarks by Dapi89. Bishonen | talk 20:36, 27 April 2017 (UTC).

• As a comment, not all academic or other experts are able to properly edit WP. A professional historian obtains importance in their field by finding new data or original reinterpretations; aWP editor must do neither. An academic is expected to have a distinct personal POV, and to firmly defend their hypotheses as superior to those of other people; a WP editor must do neither. Some professional historians , especially those known for writing general textbooks, are able to write and interact in WP mode; some are not. The ones who cannot resist OWNership are usually banned from even a topic area where they are experts. Their ideas are not banned: they can still contribute by their published works, which can then be used by other editors. DGG ( talk ) 16:38, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

• Yes, thank you for clearing that up. This all goes back to a discussion of whether a specific source is considered reliable: Just, Günther (1986). Stuka Pilot Hans Ulrich Rudel. Atglen, Pennsylvania: Schiffer Military History. ISBN 978-0-88740-252-4. Schiffer is a private, family owned publisher. They have a wide array of books. I'm just not convinced that this is an alt-right wing publisher promoting fascism. There has been a focused effort by one or two editors to limit the publications that are considered neutral for this range of articles, and I just don't understand the problem with it. I don't think it's DAPI's effort--although he/she is sometimes a bit abrupt--but I also think coffmann can be off target on these things too. I'm concerned that a series of articles that have been collectively valued and reviewed by the project are being taken apart unnecessarily. Can they use some discreet editing? Probably yes, but not on the scale that has been happening. Two of the editors involved seem to expect instant responses to their posts, and that just doesn't happen. We all of us have "real life" and cannot be expected to drop everything because they have posted a question. I do appreciate that coffmann is now (most of the time) posting questions on the talk page before massively unilaterally deleting information, or bilaterally doing so with the other editor's approval. I'm just not convinced yet that this is the right thing to do. auntieruth (talk) 20:00, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

An editor who routinely says things like: "I don't give a damn what you think," and "Your opinions are not important," and "Such an assumption is colossally stupid" is not "a bit abrupt". This minimizes and papers over the very persistent attempts by Dapi89 to bully and badger editors into acquiescing to his position. Couching this behavior in terms of the dispute over Schiffer is also inaccurate. As noted above, this behavior has involved other editors besides User:K.e.coffman and User:Creuzbourg. This is hardly behavior provoked by one content dispute. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 20:56, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

As can be seen on the talk page, the "conflict" evolved with a discussion about "intricate details". It was actually me who first questioned the bias of Günther Just's work on Rudel on 2 April 2017, not because of its American publisher, however, but because of Just's close personal ties to Rudel, the NPD and, later, the DVU. In short, Just is a well known journalist of the extreme right and his work is strongly biased. A little to my dismay that did not become a major issue during the ensuing debate and it was never commented upon by Creuzbourg. Instead the discussion focused upon style, intricate details and GA criteria (i.e. question of "comprehensivenes"). There is one thread on "sources". But what has been reverted by Dapi89 ever since were mainly copy edits.7 April 2017 or 25 April all the while he only minimally contributed to the discussion. --Assayer (talk) 22:36, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Concerning Dapi89's habits as a "professional historian" of aerial warfare I might point out that they recently made mutually exclusive claims about two different persons. On 10 February 2017 they claimed that Friedrich Rumpelhardt was Most successful radar operator in the Luftwaffe, part of the most successful night-fighting team in air warfare , whereas on 9 April 2017 they claimed that Erich Handke was The most successful night fighter operator of the war Both statements obviously contradict each other. Dapi89 still also found words to belittle K.e.coffman on each occasion.--Assayer (talk) 11:35, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

• Support a topic ban as proposed, i. e. from Luftwaffe and WWII, not just from Luftwaffe, for 30 days. 30 days, which would be a long time for a block, is short for a topic ban, in my experience, and I'd also support a longer ban, such as three months. Reverting an established and obviously good faith editor with an edit summary of "rev deletions by Coffmann, ignorant, dishonest, disruptive" is pretty scandalous, no matter how much you disagree with them. It's the kind of aggressiveness that's likely to ruin the experience of Misplaced Pages editing, not just for the target of the abuse, but for other people who are deterred from discussion by it. As for the accusations above and at Talk:Hans-Ulrich Rudel that coffman has also taken part in "bickering", I can't see that they have any merit. I've noticed further examples by dipping into Coffman's userpage, which names no names, but is full of juicy quotes with links to who said them. That's far too much for me to go into, or indeed read, but for a recent example, check out the history of Günther Lütjens on and around 10 March, which is where the edit summary I quoted comes from. There we see coffman removing the external links with polite references to the talkpage, and Dapi reinstalling them with name-calling. (The talkpage discussion is also interesting.) The quotes offered by Eggishorn above add to the impression of a battleground editor. Bishonen | talk 15:36, 28 April 2017 (UTC).
• Support 3 month topic ban from WW2 broadly construed per Bishonen. Coffman is certainly a contentious editor within the WW2 field, but he is respectful and follows WP conduct policy and content policy. People's issues with his views on sourcing being Nazi propaganda, etc. are a content dispute not best handled at ANI. That doesn't matter here though, as those issues are content disputes. The question is whether or not Dapi's behavior in WW2 articles is enough for a topic ban. The name calling of editors who are perceived as being on the opposite side of a content dispute in WW2 is disruptive to the project. A topic ban would not be punishment: it would allow steam to escape and hopefully encourage future collaboration. TonyBallioni (talk) 15:51, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
• Comment - A topic ban as proposed, i. e. from Luftwaffe, for 14 days, should be enough time for him to be reflective and cool his heels, if one is to be imposed. Kierzek (talk) 17:18, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose as auntieruth has said many of us have greater 'real life' priorities, and most of us can't keep up with the sheer volume of edits coming through. I can appreciate Dapi's level of frustration has reached breaking point. I acknowledge I also have history with coffman's practices and it has left me dispirited and resigned that quantity and rules-lawyering will win out a common sense approach on Misplaced Pages. As I was approaching a breaking-point, I did a self-imposed exile from the topic unwilling to put wasted time and effort to either compile and argue for a case or to write new material when it would likely be reverted without discussion. I also acknowledge that neither side can see merits in the other's case and I don't know how this can be resolved. I would prefer auntieruth's proposal that both sides be given a timeout instead of just one being singled out for punishment and reprimand when both have exhibited questionable behaviour by different means and methods. Philby NZ (talk) 23:20, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

• Comment: I would consider editor Philby NZ to be involved given the prior interactions; for example, here's commentary from an AfD on an article that I created (AfD: J.J. Fedorowicz), where he commented on my editing reputation, while suggesting that the article's purpose was to act as platform to show how shoddy its publication reliability is (diff).

The disagreements that Philby NZ describes were due in part to copyvios on the Luftwaffe articles that he contributed to; pls see for example: User_talk:Diannaa:Copyvio (where he had described my contributions as sabotage). Likewise, past disagreements with Dapi included in part the placing of copyvio-revdel tags in articles. Dapi insisted on removing such tags, such as here: Talk:Gustav_Rödel#Copyvio, which also showed Dapi's rather surprising lack of awareness about how Misplaced Pages handles copyvios. K.e.coffman (talk) 04:32, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

yes and that it why I mentioned my conflict-of-interest. The copy-vios were related to some of my original writings on Misplaced Pages. The tribulations of dealing with you since have meant I have barely written any article-expansions since on this topic in the last few years. Philby NZ (talk) 21:17, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Poke The current 3RR block expires today so Dapi89 can contribute his understanding of concerns expressed the above. I'm poking this thread because it is currently unclear if his return at that time will be conditional or not. Aside from the standard conditions that apply to every editor, that is. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 17:54, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

It's not conditional. Dapi89 was offered an earlier unblock on certain conditions, but did not accept them, so those conditions are a thing of the past. His 72-hour block will expire in about three hours, with no conditions. He'll be free to edit all of Misplaced Pages after that. Bishonen | talk 18:18, 28 April 2017 (UTC).

Okay, below are a few edit diffs (my grading is finished for the week) that I have dredged up.

• I don't think it's reasonable to expect an editor to respond in short order to another editors demands. see this conversation
• I call this an unreasonable action on the part of another editor
• acknowledgment of an editorial war here.
• and here. Since these articles involve WP:MilHist, it may be that we have some housecleaning to do on our guidelines. Would you suggest that? I can bring it to the project's attention (again). auntieruth (talk) 18:56, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

• adding another. This edit was done a while ago, changing what had been an alttext description of a picture (remember when alt-text was required?) to delete "details. See here. auntieruth (talk) 19:01, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Are you sure you posted the diff's you intended? It is very easy to get the oldid parameters mixed up when posting diff's, hence my question. These tend to document poor behavior by Dapi89 with the exception of the conversation with me on K.e. coffman's talk page (at worst general frustration with a wikiproject) and the changes to Sayn-Wittgenstein (K.e.coffman has made no secret of their disdain for romanticism in WWII German officer articles and doesn't do so disruptively there). In fact, some duplicate some of the earlier-posted quotes of Dapi89's behavior. I think that history is already well-established. Did you mean to add to the record or to support the earlier statements about "bickering"? If the latter, I'm very confused as to how these help. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 19:13, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

• Well, yes, I guess. I don't like pulling up old edit posts, because it seems like water unbder the bridge. And yes I did meant to chose those, because they show another side to the story. auntieruth (talk) 19:23, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

We had an edit conflict while I was adding this.

• I realize that WWII is a contentious subject. I found a reddit page with all kinds of instructions about how to disrupt wikipedia's efforts to provide some coverage of the German military. I have it bookmarked and I could post the page here, but I'm not sure it would be productive. Its instructions were very clear on how to disrupt the wikipedia processes. One of the complaints was the the abundance of articles on the Knights Cross and lack of articles on Heroes of the Soviet. I'd like to see more of those. auntieruth (talk) 19:22, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

• Comment -- indeed, the romanticisation of the German WWII war effort is not only being discussed on the internet, but is also a subject of serious academic study. I would recommend:

• The Myth of the Eastern Front by Ronald Smelser & Edward J. Davies, and
• The Wehrmacht: History, Myth, Reality by Wolfram Wette

(Disclaimer, all these articles have been created by me). I would suggest either one as required reading to anyone who would like to edit on WWII topics as they related to the German war effort.

Separately, I believe Auntieruth55 to be involved; please see: ANI: Attempted doxxing / casting aspersions by Auntieruth55 below. K.e.coffman (talk) 04:32, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

• Support The evidence in the first two comments under "Boomerang proposal" is compelling, as is the attitude shown at User talk:Dapi89#Blocked (diff if needed). Johnuniq (talk) 23:48, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose TB I have my problems with Dapi's editing style as well as coffman's, but both editors have engaged in battleground behaviour, and have an unswerving certainty of the "rightness" of their views. As auntieruth has pointed out, the never-ending threads and streams of wikilawyering and pointy behaviour that come from coffman are hard to keep up with. WP would benefit from both editors showing a bit more respect for consensus. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:08, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Its not just between User:Dapi89 and User:K.e.coffman, its also about User:Dapi89's behavior towards me when I tried to copy edit the Rudel article. When it comes to unsubstantiated claims of "professionalism" and hints of academic employment in the present discussion, that's just ludicrous. Any real academic, whether tenured or not, is swamped with teaching, trying desperately to get time to do real research, and publish real articles; not spending their valuable time writing and fighting rear-guard actions on Misplaced Pages. Creuzbourg (talk) 13:18, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

• Peacemaker67 please provide evidence of battleground behaviour and streams of wikilawyering and pointy behaviour. Please also show how I've demonstrated insufficient respect for consensus. Otherwise, please retract your statement. (Such accusations from the user are quite typical, as in Yet more wikilawyering and pointy behaviour while apparently describing WP:BURDEN as an essay: diff).

For the record, I make a distinction between community-wide and project-specific consensus; see WP:LOCALCONSENSUS -- more wikilawyering! :-) In the Rudel article where the tag team accusations have stemmed from, such consensus has resulted in an article consisting of talkative expositions and meticulous investigations of insignificant details (see Intricate details, with participation by Peacemaker67, MisterBee1966, Dapi89 & Auntieruth55). A similar protracted discussion took place at Hartenstein#OR. Talk page participants included MisterBee1966, Dapi89 and Auntieruth55 over a month's time. Likewise, see Gollob#Recent edits, in multiple parts, with participation by MisterBee1966, Dapi89, Peacemaker67 and Auntieruth55.

The project coords might want to consider whether its best practices are in agreement with the wider community norms, or even with its own project members. In the thread that Auntieruth55 started as part of this dispute (Massive changes of FA articles), one member commented that the articles in question should be delisted because the sources are too old or too Nazi: diff. This is while the OP states: I don't know what the problem is with these sources , which seems odd for a professional historian. K.e.coffman (talk) 16:25, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Happy to. Give me a couple of days. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:02, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

You appear to misunderstand what I meant - you did not mean that I considered the sources inadequate, but that some editors considered them inappropriate. The complete failure to find any sort of consensus or compromise and the associated edit warring is what renders the articles unstable and prime for delisting. The strident appeals to ANI to try to get anyone who opposes you to be blocked or banned, and the twisting, whether intentional or not, of what others say to make your point, only makes the situation worse. (By the way, I thought that I was meant to be informed when someone involves me in an ANI discussion).Nigel Ish (talk) 08:20, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose TB Never had any interaction with any of the participants here. After a quick review I am incredibly unimpressed by User:K.e.coffman's approach to the "content dispute". For instance He raises the reliability of the source "Obermaier, Ernst" on Talk:Werner Mölders#Tags. Obermaier is a source for tens of articles on Misplaced Pages, a handful of which have now been tagged. Very frustrating that instead of choosing raise this issue at Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard, he is on here trying to knock out a fellow editor Bosley John Bosley (talk) 11:39, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

• @Bosley John Bosley:, it hardly seems fair to accuse K.e.coffman of being "on here trying to knock out a fellow editor". This ANI thread was started by Dapi89, trying to "knock out" (if you like to put it like that) two fellow editors, K.e.coffman and Creuzbourg, on a charge of tag-teaming (which has yet to be substantiated). Those two editors should reasonably be permitted to respond. Bishonen | talk 14:41, 30 April 2017 (UTC).

This ANI thread was started after K.e.coffman initiated the WP:Blocking Games Here. Bosley John Bosley (talk) 15:26, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose - while I have had my problems with Dapi in the past, I don't believe his behavior is any more problematic than Coffman's (in fact, I said as much in the ANEW post that resulted in Dapi's block, though that was seemingly ignored). Coupled with behavior like this (deliberately hiding my rebuttal of his deletion rationale as "off topic"), I actually have more trouble with Coffman's activities than I do Dapi's. Parsecboy (talk) 15:28, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

• Comment It seems odd that those editors who oppose a topic ban hardly ever care to comment on Dapi's "name calling of editors" and accusations, which are by no means limited to disputes with K.e.coffman (see difflinks provided by Eggishorn above). Sure, some admit of having problems with Dapi here and there, but maintain that K.e.Coffman's behavior is at least as problematic as Dapi's (if not more so). To a large degree, however, this discontent seems to be based upon content issues (awaiting Peacemaker67's evidence, that is). The problem of sources used for the FA article on Werner Mölders has been raised by me on 21 February 2017, see Talk:Werner Mölders#Update on the literature. Still Auntieruth55 started a thread at MilHist Project claiming I don't know what the problem is with these sources. Everything is checked and double checked. It seems to me that one editor wants these articles to go in a specific direction. Instead of arguing why there would be no problems with the sources, which is a content issue, many contributors engage in constructing a case of "promoting an agenda and for self-aggrandizement" (see auntieruth below) by K.e.Coffman. Strangely enough for them it seems to be clear that only one side in the conflict is "promoting an agenda". It is obvious that some editors feel that they have "more trouble with Coffman's activities" than with Dapi's, for the simple reason that they agree more on content issues with the latter. But I wonder how they would phrase their position once their deletion rationale had been called false and dishonest. or once they would have been commented upon: Nothing but opinions from an agenda-driven Misplaced Pages editor. You're views are personal and tendentious. You're a polemist. End of story. That's just a small collection from my few discussions with Dapi89.--Assayer (talk) 18:07, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

• Given that I'm one of the people you're discussing, Assayer, I figure I'll respond. I didn't come here so much to defend Dapi as to oppose K.e.coffman. Coffman's behavior is classic - edit-war over an article, then head to the drama board first to get the other side blocked (carefully framing the case to omit any wrong-doing on his own part). Why we reward this behavior has always amazed me. Why Coffman (and Creuzbourg) was not similarly blocked for his edit-warring on the Rudel article over the course of the past month (or even admonished) is, frankly, inexplicable. Which is to say, if 1, 2, 3 reverts in eleven minutes, followed by a 4th a very cautious 31 hours later (after Dapi was already blocked) is not edit-warring, we have a very serious definitional problem. And since you seemingly acknowledge that both sides are pushing a POV, one wonders why you (and others) tolerate one and threaten the other with a topic ban. Parsecboy (talk) 13:26, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

• This thread is about a proposed topic ban for Dapi89, because of his long record of uncivility and ad hominem arguments uttered against various editors on various occasions. So far you and other editors opposing such a ban have mainly pointed to K.e.Coffman as being the (at least as) guilty party. And, yes, that argument is construed to defend Dapi's behavior. You might perceive it as if you were adding context to that conflict. I perceive it as apologetic. It gives me the impression that you tolerate Dapi's behavior, or somehow even approve of it, as if certain editors deserve that kind of treatment or have asked for it. If you consider K.e.Coffman's behavior to be disruptive, start a thread about it, present your arguments, support it with difflinks and make your suggestions, how you think that the community should deal with it.

Re:POV I am of the opinion that anybody has a point of view and that neutrality is acchieved within a collaborative process defined and guided by the various editorial guidelines, for example WP:RS, WP:DUE, WP:ONUS and so forth. I have stated this point before and the reaction was kind of "He said Jehovah", or, in the words of Dapi89: That encapsulates the problem Assayer, with you and K.e.Coffman: "I think" and "IMHO". Editor opinions count for nothing. Assayer and K.e.coffman have used Misplaced Pages to attack sources about any German serviceman who served in World War II if it dares to complement their personal bravery or service record. I did not threaten a topic ban, btw, I merely would like to see that pattern of uncivility being stopped. What's your suggestion? So far I perceive your argument as something like: Make Coffman disappear and everything is fine. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Assayer (talk • contribs) 15:24, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

• Dapi's incivility is not limited to this topic - if your problem is his uncivil behavior, a topic ban is not the solution.
• I am categorically opposed to sanctioning one editor in a conflict and allowing the other to get away with the same behavior, simply because they ran to the drama boards first. That is why I'm here. I am no friend of Dapi - this is the last time I tried to help save him from himself, and you can see what I got for my efforts. Frankly, I'd be happy to see them both indef'd, but unfortunately we're probably not there yet (and to return to my earlier comment, why the community allows this level of disruption for as long as it does is beyond me). Parsecboy (talk) 15:54, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

@Parsecboy:, the narrative you laid out above fails on the very basic fact that user:K.e.coffman did not start this thread, user:Dapi89 did. Also, Dapi89's problems are not limited to K.e.coffmann. They are consistently incivil and insulting to any editor they perceive as an enemy. I see no recognition in your remarks so far in your thread that you are taking consideration of the actual facts involved. Statements like Coffman's behavior is classic - edit-war over an article, then head to the drama board first to get the other side blocked seem to be motivated instead by personal prejudgments. Dapi89's initial allegations of tag-taming were never supported and seem to have been rejected by most here. K.e.coffman's accusations of incivility and personal attacks, however, are amply supported by statements above and even trivial searching will find more. There have been additional accusations of K.e.coffman's poor behavior, again without evidence. I would think an admin would at least attempt to substantiate ANI postings about another editor. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 17:51, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

@Eggishorn:, as someone else pointed out above, and you either missed or ignored, Coffman went to ANEW before Dapi started this thread. No evidence of Coffman's poor behavior? Are you bothering to read anything I've said? Try the bit I am bolding for your attention now. Parsecboy (talk) 17:54, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

@Parsecboy:, I might reasonably ask the same of you, especially since the "someone else...above" was me. I am quite aware that I posted about Dapi89 being reported to 3RR. I note that such reporting was reviewed, accepted, bocked, and then the block was also reviewed and endorsed. Holding K.e.coffman's feet to the fire over a report that 3 admins had a hand in seems really unjustified, not to mention disrespectful. If you want call K.e.coffman's edits gaming the 3RR rule, well, I can't tell you otherwise. I note that the full history actually stretches out over five days, involves at least four editors, and was accompanied by talk page posts. It seems like edit warring and WP:BRD playing out simultaneously, making the behavior of anyone not crossing bright lines a matter of interpretation. I also note that this thread has gone from accusing K.e.coffman of tag-teaming to accusing them of incivility to accusing them of bickering to now accusing them of edit warring. Are we going to keep moving goalposts until we can find something to catch them on? Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 20:18, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

@Eggishorn: - I was referring to Bosley John Bosley's comment directly above my original statement, not yours. If you were aware that Coffman went to ANEW first, on what basis did you challenge my "narrative"?

Obviously I cannot comment on why the other admins ignored Coffman's behavior on the article - but surely you would not subscribe to the idea that admins are infallible? On the article in question - take a look further in the history, and you'll see that the three editors have been reverting each other for over a month now.

As to the rest, where have I accused Coffman of incivility, bickering, or tag-teaming? Surely you cannot insist I defend arguments I didn't make, can you? Parsecboy (talk) 20:29, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

@Parsecboy:, I challenged it on the basis that you said: ...then head to the drama board first. I have always seen "the drama board" refer to this one. I cannot recall any expansion of that phrase in general use to refer to 3RR. Perhaps "the drama boards" (plural) including all the WP:AN sub-boards is what you meant. The narrative of events on this board, however, clearly started with Dapi89's unsubstantiated complaint.

I don't, obviously, think admins are infallible or else I would not have challenged your postings, would I? When three admins, including one as respected as @Bishonen:, agree on a set of actions, however, I tend to think they might be on to something.

I did take a look at the history. I would not have made the 3RR/BRD comment unless I had. The history shows it is not a case of simply reverting and re-reverting. Different formulations are added, refactored, reverted, partially re-added, etc. Combined with the talk page discussion, that means calling a three-party edit war is missing important qualities.

My last point above refers to the general trajectory of the thread. I'm not asking you to defend Dapi89's or auntieruth55's comments. I do think that continually adding new charges for an editor to defend to the same thread is unfair. I get that K.e.coffman is out of step with a number of MilHist editors (and I honestly don't know if you are one of them) and that creates disputes. I think I documented that Dapi89 has crossed very clear lines of behavior. I also think that K.e.coffman tries very hard to "color inside the lines," so to speak. If walking up to the line and not crossing it repeatedly is itself sanctionable, however, then there are rules I'm not aware of in play. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 20:54, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

@Eggishorn: - argue semantics all you want, the point that Coffman ran to a drama board to present a one-sided version of events that resulted in Dapi's block stands.

I tend to think that means they just didn't examine the situation all that thoroughly. No one is perfect, whatever their reputation is.

Look, you can split all the hairs you want, but the long and the short of it is, the three editors were editing over each other, trying to force their version of the article in for the past month. It doesn't matter in the slightest that they reformulated things as they went—in fact, 3RR specifically states "whether involving the same or different material".

{{xt|" If walking up to the line and not crossing it repeatedly is itself sanctionable, however, then there are rules I'm not aware of in play." - indeed there are. From the intro to WP:EW: "The three-revert rule is a convenient limit for occasions when an edit war is happening fairly quickly, but it is not a definition of "edit warring", and it is perfectly possible to edit war without breaking the three-revert rule, or even coming close to doing so.". And when Coffman made 3 reverts, and then waited a full day to make a 4th, it seems blindingly obvious he knew what he was doing. Parsecboy (talk) 23:18, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Oddly enough, stating some-one is "arguing semantics" and "splitting hairs" is a classic hair-splitting semantic tactic to dismiss arguments and avoid addressing their merits. You were the one that spoke of a repeated pattern of K.e.coffman "running to the drama board" and then changed what that meant. You were the one that posted all of one example of this supposed repeated pattern. You were the one that imputed motives to K.e.coffman that you expect others to accept just because it's what you think happened. This is all uninspiring evidence of your version of events, and I think I am well within the rules to point it out. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 23:34, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Bullshit - you dismissed my claim because I didn't make clear exactly what drama board Coffman ran to, when you yourself admit you knew exactly what I meant. Want more evidence? Look a few threads down, for another example of Coffman running to this drama board, trying to get another editor sanctioned for a ridiculously false doxing claim. There, you will see two other similar cases linked, where his activities succeeded, at least in part.

Ironic that your reply, where you accuse me of dismissing arguments rather than rebutting them, completely ignores my point about Coffman's edit-warring. Pot? That's an awfully dark shade of black you're wearing. Parsecboy (talk) 23:44, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

• Comment Could k.e.coffman provide one evidence that his contributions to Luftwaffe articles on Misplaced Pages (topic ban k.e.coffman wants for Dapi89) have been made for any other reason than for the advancement of article quality. We would like to see contributions to Luftwaffe articles you improved, contributed or developed. I could provide the opposite. I would like to ask for your action on an Luftwaffe article: Otto Kittel. This article was rebuild by Dapi89 and MisterBee1966 starting with 16 February 2017 (it was rebuild with different sources as k.e.coffman raised the question about using kurowski and community accepted that he is unreliable) and since then until Dapi89 was blocked, the article was stable. Once Dapi89 was blocked you edited the article and remove literally everything. See the difference: Could you please explain your action on just this article. You removed literally everything, all sourced material including Obermeier, Bergström, Constable-Toliver, Trautloft etc. Are really this source non-reliable? Can you provide here or on the Otto Kittel talkpage sources that state that? This discussion is very important for you conduct here on Misplaced Pages as some persons raised the question for a topic ban for you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.237.138.234 (talk) 20:41, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Um, did you miss this from above? IP 104.237.XX, please log in to your account if you wish to attack people on ANI...Evading scrutiny on noticeboards is inappropriate. This post makes it impossible to believe that you are new since January (as the IP contributions would imply). Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 21:14, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Paid editor Janweh64 moving own drafts to mainspace, again

Moves of rejected drafts to mainspace by Janweh64 were discussed at this board in February. While all agreed that such moves are not actually forbidden, the editor was given a good deal of advice by various admins, including this: "You should not move articles into mainspace when you have a COI. You should request review as the template allows for. You absolutely should not move an article back to mainspace after it's been moved back to Draft."; this: "bad idea to move to mainspace yourself, terrible, terrible idea to edit-war back into mainspace" (same editor); this: "it would be much, much better if Janweh64 stopped moving his pages to the mainspace and submitted them for review instead"; and this: "his COI has clouded his judgement". Since then, the editor has:

• twice moved Draft:Aviv Hadar to mainspace, the second time after I had moved it back to draft, and with the (partial) edit summary "Moved per WP:IAR"
• moved the declined draft Draft:Oncology Care Model to mainspace with the edit summary "Moved WP:AfC-declined article per WP:IAR"

and also directly edited pages such as Robert C. Hilliard (attorney) and Keck Graduate Institute where he/she has a declared paid relationship.

Question: what form – if any – of discouragement is appropriate when an editor refuses to heed guidelines or listen to advice, and cites IAR as a reason for ignoring them? As far as I'm aware, WP:IAR is about ignoring rules in order to improve the encyclopaedia, not about ignoring rules in order to improve your bank balance. (Note: This is about behaviour not content – I've not examined the merit or otherwise of the articles or edits in question.) Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 09:51, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Suggest sanctioning user, starting with a short block—but will refrain from doing so until they've had a chance to respond. El_C 10:02, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

<To the invisible voices:> What? IAR! *** Seriously though (and I wasn't joking before), is there anything that can be done to discourage this, short of blocking? Warning clearly doesn't work. What other sanction is there? Move-protecting the pages maybe? El_C 10:08, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Please read 1, 2, and 3 before rendering judgement. —አቤል ዳዊት(Janweh64) (talk) 10:18, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

"Nuke the whales?—→Gotta nuke sumthin'." I'm glad you're doing good (albeit paid) work, but you've been cautioned before against editing and draft-moving directly. So why not simply heed that advise? Plenty of editors out there willing to assist, I'm sure... El_C 10:32, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Winged Blades of Godric (talk · contribs), who originally rejected the article has since reviewed and patrolled the article: Oncology Care Model.

My reasoning is simple, I do not receive fair treatment in some rare cases. With most AfC rejections, I respect the judgement of the reviewer and simply delete the draft. See: , , and . I have tried using WP:AFCHELP to no avail. —አቤል ዳዊት(Janweh64) (talk) 10:48, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

I suppose when the system is failing you, IAR isn't such a bad alternative. Still, I would hope for better checks on paid editing—editing directly feels intuitively wrong to me. El_C 11:37, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Do the articles meet notability standards? If they do, clean them up from any other issues. If they don't meet notability standards nominate them for deletion at WP:AFD. If they are deleted then they are deleteable again G4. ~ GB fan 10:40, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Exactly, otherwise moving them back to languish in draft is tantamount to deleting them with no consensus. —አቤል ዳዊት(Janweh64) (talk) 10:48, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

• A few things: IAR requires that a rule exist in order to break it. WP:COI is a best practice guideline. It is not policy or a must-be-obeyed rule. COI explicitly does not say people with a COI cannot under any circumstances edit articles they have a COI with, because despite many attempts the community has consistantly failed to make it say that. Janweh is also under no formal editing restriction from doing so, beyond the same 'you shouldnt do that' that already exists in the COI guideline. Given the diffs they have posted in reply above, I dont see a problem. If the argument is 'Janweh has been making articles live they have a COI with that are overly promotional' that would be an issue. If the complaint is solely 'Janweh has been making articles live they have a COI with' you need to demonstrate *why* that is a problem. Or open a discussion at WP:COI in order to amend it to forbid the practice. Good luck with that. Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:01, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Seconded. Endercase (talk) 17:24, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Allow me to dive in - the drafts created by this paid editor should be forced to go through the Articles for Creation process before they become live articles. Why hasn't this been done, or even suggested? Exemplo347 (talk) 11:49, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

It has been, the user says My reasoning is simple, I do not receive fair treatment in some rare cases. With most AfC rejections, I respect the judgement of the reviewer and simply delete the draft. El_C 11:55, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

That's what I get for diving in. @Janweh64: if you don't feel that an AfC review was fair, you can resubmit the draft with a comment such as "Request that another editor reviews this draft" and it'll happen. AfC reviewers aren't biased, most will just happen to randomly review your article having never read it before. Exemplo347 (talk) 11:59, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Since the previous ANI, I have voluntarily and under no clear obligation have started using AfC. See: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8. But in some cases AfC reviewers fail to recognize a notable subject, perhaps clouded by my COI. Like I have said above with examples I usually accept their judgement. But in some case where I strongly believe the subject is notable, I take action to move the article as is my privilege under WP:EXTENDEDCONFIRMED. I even invite the reviewer to nominate the article for AfD.

For an example of how my paid editing is beneficial to Misplaced Pages please read: Draft:Don_Reitz. —አቤል ዳዊት(Janweh64) (talk) 12:04, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

If people don't see that a subject of your article is notable, the onus is on you to prove them wrong. You're a paid editor, you have to abide by WP:PAID and not just take it on yourself to move your drafts to article space. Please work with us, or find another way to make money. Exemplo347 (talk) 12:08, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

My understanding is that WP:PAID only states, "If you are being paid for your contributions to Misplaced Pages, you must disclose who is paying you, who the client is, and any other relevant role or relationship." I follow that policy strictly: See User:Janweh64. —አቤል ዳዊት(Janweh64) (talk) 12:13, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Well, I'd suggest actually reading it - including the sentence about editing articles that you have a conflict of interest with. To put it simply, the general consensus is that paid editors have an inherent, non-neutral point of view regarding subjects that they are being paid to edit. Create your drafts, submit them, and then walk away. Exemplo347 (talk) 12:18, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

@Janweh64: Please read WP:PAY (not just WP:PAID). The usual process is through the AfC or edit request process. If you have been through that, and you still think the reviewer was really wrong, you can bring your proposed changes to the WP:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard where the community will review your proposed changes. -Obsidi (talk) 20:33, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

• support 1 week block. COI management has two essential aspects - disclosure and peer review. The 2nd is essential to preserve the integrity of Misplaced Pages in light of the bias that a COI creates. Moves of articles to main space by creators after they were rejected by peer reviewers is rarely acceptable; it is not acceptable in the case where a COI is present. This is not a case where IAR is inappropriate. Janweh I advised you earlier to behave in ways that are of the highest standards. The community tolerates paid editing, it doesn't love it. The more you do to create a bad reputation (for instance here by ignoring peer review) the harder your role here becomes. It is just self-destructive, as well as harmful to Misplaced Pages. Jytdog (talk) 19:27, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Please read: WP:BLOCKNOTPUNITIVE. Simply reaching a consensus on whether or not a COI editor has the right to move an article from draft to articlespace is sufficient to prevent further disruption.

A quote from WP:Policies and guidelines which, unlike WP:COI, is a policy and not a guideline: "Be clear. Avoid esoteric or quasi-legal terms and dumbed-down language. Be plain, direct, unambiguous, and specific. Avoid platitudes and generalities. Do not be afraid to tell editors directly that they must or should do something." It is easy:

• An editor with a COI with a subject may not move a draft article to the mainspace or create a new article on the subject in mainspace.
• change "are very strongly discouraged from editing" >>>>>>>> "should not edit"
• "may propose changes" >>>>>>>> "should propose changes"

Otherwise, you are punishing me for declaring my COI religiously when 1000s of others are right now editing with no declaration. —አቤል ዳዊት(Janweh64) (talk) 03:58, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

This path of acting aggressively in order to support your paid editing and then arguing fiercely to defend your aggressiveness is just going to lead to an indefinite block per NOTHERE. None of the volunteers here want to waste time any time at all dealing with this, which is just about you making money. Don't you get that? What little patience people have, you exhaust by doing this. There are some paid editors who disclose what they are doing, and who "get it" and create no drama and they add value to WP. You could have been one of them, perhaps. Not what you are choosing... so be it. Jytdog (talk) 07:08, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

I will step back. Please just give me clear guidelines. And I will abide by them. The previous ANI only offered advice.  —አቤል ዳዊት(Janweh64) (talk) 16:55, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

You have them already. The way out of this particular hole is just to say "Hey, I get it. I am sorry. I will not move my own paid articles to main space anymore, but will appeal through normal channels if I feel an AfC review was unfair. Again, my apologies for creating drama. It is important to me that I remain in good standing with everybody. " Something like that. but mean it, and do it, and don't do stuff that causes people to drag you here.Jytdog (talk) 18:54, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

I concur w/ Jytdog. Dlohcierekim 18:56, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

In light of the new changes/clarification here by Jydog on March 13 to WP:COI, I will not move my own paid articles to main space anymore, but will appeal through normal channels if I feel an AfC review was unfair. My apologies for creating drama, again. It is important to me that I remain in good standing with everybody. I was truly unaware and not informed of these changes to this guideline specifically made after just a mere 20 days from my previous ANI, which was archived unclosed. —አቤል ዳዊት(Janweh64) (talk) 21:22, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Janweh your response promises that this particular problem will end, which is a good thing but the rest of what you write there is argumentative and... horrible. The prior ANI thread from only two months ago was also called "Paid editor moving own drafts to mainspace" and in that thread several editors told you the same thing you have been told here.

In other words, every single editor who commented there and here wasted their time. That is what you just communicated. That you are going to treat WP guidelines and policies like "rulebooks" that you will exploit as hard as you can in order to make money here, and you will ignore community feedback.

That is nothing like what I advised you to write. You can let your comment stand or strike it, but you should be aware of how bad for you, your post was. Jytdog (talk) 17:56, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

@Jytdog: This user is nothing like you appear to portray them in your above statement. "You can let your comment stand or strike it, but you should be aware of how bad for you, your post was." They have declared COI and they are following policy/consensus to the best of their understanding. You have "won" here, I do not understand your apparent hostility nor your apparent failure to AGF. IMO this should have never been brought to AN/I (where it wastes our time) clearly (IMO) just having a discussion on the user's talk page would have sufficed. You are also a good faith editor just trying to protect the encyclopedia from POV pushing paid edits. I agree with your sentiment, just not the methods that have been used and are suggested to be used here. No editor should ever be blamed or even punished for wasting time because they were dragged to AN/I instead the peer doing the dragging is at fault if there is no real problem that needs to be addressed. Personally I think this AN/I needs closed as all "problems" have been addressed and an agreement has been reached; based on their agreement to this. Endercase (talk) 17:24, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

I took the time to speak off-wiki with Janweh earlier in their paid editing career, when they were editing aggressively to try to get their paid edits into WP, and arguing aggressively that it was OK for them to do that. I explained to them then, that paid editing is just barely tolerated by the en-WP community. I explained that if they want to create a sustainable presence here, they should be rigorous in disclosing and submitting for peer review, and always work peacefully and without drama, and of course generate really high quality content with high quality sourcing. I explained that working this way would increase trust and respect for them in the community, and make their life easier (and to be blunt, more productive and more prosperous with regard to their paid editing). Everybody wins that way. And I explained that the lower the quality of their work, and more aggressive they were in trying to get it into WP, the more their work and behavior would be scrutinized, and the slower and harder everything would get for them, etc.. That the community loses with time wasted on the drama, and they lose (less productive, less money made, and heading toward a NOTHERE indef) if they go down that path.

Now this issue of moving their own paid articles to mainspace has arisen again. The first instance was semi-understandable. That this 2nd thread exists at all is hard to understand, as is the slipping back into the fierce arguing to justify marginal behavior. That this 2nd thread ended with with them making a wikilawyering argument half-justifying that this happened again, is bad for them. It is on the path where they lose.

I do agree that this thread should be closed. I still hope that Janweh has the good sense to strike and make a more clueful statement before that happens, but if they choose to let it stand, so be it. Jytdog (talk) 17:41, 30 April 2017 (UTC) (added a bit w/out redacting Jytdog (talk) 05:12, 1 May 2017 (UTC))

Si Trew at RfD

user:SimonTrew has been flooding RfD with up to 70 nominations a day (see any RfD log page in the last week, or from shortly before Christmas. e.g. all-but a handful of the 74 nominations at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2017 April 20 are by Si Trew), in almost all cases without having done even the most basic of WP:BEFORE checks to see whether they should be deleted or not, and ignoring feedback about what consititutes a good redirect regarding WP:DIACRITICS. is a good illustration of the mentality - trying to nomiante as many redirects as possible in as short a time as possible, regardless of the disruption it causes.

I have asked him on his talk page to slow down on several occasions, e.g. User talk:SimonTrew#Relax in December and user talk:SimonTrew#Please slow down today. He's been instructed to do basic WP:BEFORE on multiple occasions, but has repeatedly refused to do so sating that "it's not my business" (see user talk:Thryduulf#Slow down for example).

Examples of problematic nominations: Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2017 April 21#64 Oozumo, Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion#Log/2017 April 22#Marten Trotzigs Graend, Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2017 April 20#Keflavikurflugvoellur and many others.

It's also worth noting that my intention to bring this here was described as "bullying" .

What I'm seeking is either a full topic ban from RfD or a limit of 20 nominations per day, each demonstrating that WP:BEFORE has been carried out. I will be linking to this discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:Redirects for discussion. Thryduulf (talk) 10:48, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

That is simply not true. I time my nominations very carefully, actually. I am on different time zones from other regulars at RfD. User:Thryduulf does not own RfD, but seems to think he does and wants to bully me because of "other contributors". I have a good memory. User:Champion, who hardly ever contributed, came back this morning and bunged in a few. Several new editors I have encouraged to contribute. Because of this admin bully, User:Thryduulf, we will never get anything done. I have said at my talk page, you are not the only admin. User:Tavix got nominated and became admin mainly because of his work at RfD. There is no requirement for this bully admin to come to RfD. It is purely voluntary. "Flooding" is a joke. I split list 11 into chunks and got through 5000 of them listing about 50, that is 1% of what was on that list. I probably rcatted about the same amount and the other 90% were fine as they were. Sheesh, flooding. I am not a bot. I find this nomination absolutely ridiculous from an admin who pops his head around the door, finds he has work to do, then lists me at ANI. Don't do it, go and contribute somewhere else. Why are you an admin? I dunno. I thought to do that kind of work.

As for doing basic "WP:BEFORE". I cannot do that. The User:Eubot redirects the redirects the articles are not going to have RS are they, they are redirects. I don't care whether the article has RS but whether the redirect makes sense. I sift through the language redirects and go keep, delete, RfD. I took another route earlier today to just nominate the redirects at CSD to see what happened. Would be easier. Certianly easier than arguing with a bully admin who has to do a bit of work as an admin. Shouldn't be an admin then. And try to get my name right. Si Trew or Simon Trew. Not SiTrew. I am not some kind of meme. Si Trew (talk) 11:04, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

I counted 8 personal attacks in this post alone. 2600:1017:B021:5EB5:995B:EC9D:49E5:E6F3 (talk) 13:14, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

The example "problematic nominations" are still open for discussion. That is why I bloody well brought them there because I was not sure. The first is Finnish but a bit iffy, in English Misplaced Pages, the second is still open but the speedy keep is by this involved admin ]. That's ff--- WP:INVOLVED if I ever saw it. Si Trew (talk) 11:08, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Actually, most of the redirects ST has nominated range from the ridiculous to the actively misleading, and I wish they could be deleted without having to go through RfD. (As a fairly seasoned editor I don't question the need for due process, these are just my personal reactions as a professional linguist and a Scandinavian. (Then again, as a Scandinavian, I was brought up in a very consensus based culture, so...)) Anyway, the underlying problem seems to be that there is not enough participation in the RfD discussions so I should put my money where my mouth is and try to participate more. --bonadea contributions talk 11:09, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Consensus is for Germanic ones to be kept, including Scandinavian. I listed a couple yesterday for A, Sweden and O, Sweden I think. You may have an opinion on those. All I can do is sort and go that's all right that's a bit iffy that needs a delete. I'm just the card dealer not the players. Si Trew (talk) 11:14, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

As a counterexample, I put Misplaced Pages:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2017_April_26&action=edit&section=6 this in saying "Ladies ang Gentlemen this is the kind of thing I keep". Good job I did. Nothing wrong with it. Just some bully admins seem to think I am trying to harm this project. Si Trew (talk) 11:21, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Just because I don't say I haven't done WP:BEFORE does not mean I have not done it. Do you want my listing to be sesquipedalien? I am wordy enough as it is. Take WP:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2017_April_22#Kestal.2FGoeltepe for example. Did you think I did not try to find that WP:BEFORE I listed it? Fucking ridiculous ANI by Thryduulf. Just because he can't be bothered to work doesn't mean others can't. Should have his admin stripes taken off him. YOU DO NOT OWN WIKIPEDIA. Si Trew (talk) 11:25, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Consensus is that the German and Scandinavian ö → oe (and ä → ae, etc) redirects should always be kept (but you still nominate them, e.g. Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2017 April 22#Schwyzerduetsch), not that ones that are not ones which are not German or Scandinavian should always be deleted. For almost all of the Turkish redirects you've nominated I've found uses in sources indpendent of Misplaced Pages that demonstrate that transliteration is used, which is a reason to keep them. This is the sort of thing you should be finding before nominating, not relying on other people to find for you. It wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't nearly a full-time job keeping up with your nominations - hence the request for a rate limit. Thryduulf (talk) 11:30, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Si Trew the point I'm trying to make is that I'm putting in literally hours of work (e.g. on 24 April I worked on RfD from 12:44-14:07, 14:45-15:05, 17:43-17:53, and 21:37-22:31 dealing solely with the nominations made on 19th April (almost all by you), I then worked until 23:35 on 20 April nominations (see Special:Contributions/Thryduulf, all times UTC). Thryduulf (talk) 11:37, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

And how many hours of work do you think I put in to make the encylopeadia better? How many? Two? I have to go that's OK, that's iffy, that's a delete. We don't have an WP:X1 concession. "Three years" in your words, I will get it done in ten days, promise, if you let me, but I must flood RfD and I haven't time to do WP:RS, and RS doesn't apply to redirects anyway, I have to go keep, delete, iffy. Si Trew (talk) 11:39, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

So I don't even get to state my own defence, it seems.

Take this little beauty for example, 15_fevrier_1839. What are you going to do with that. It's a French date that has the accents knocked off but it is not an Engish date. What are you going to do with it? Hmm? It isn't 15 February. What are you going to do with it? You're the admin, you know better than me, you bully. I would list it at RfD, but do what you want with it. Si Trew (talk) 11:48, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Taking three years without flooding RfD is much better than 10 days of flooding RfD. My opinions on redirects have nothing to do with my being an admin. As for 15 fevrier 1839 that's an obvious keep per WP:DIACRITCS as it's the original title of the film without diacritics. Thryduulf (talk) 11:59, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Its the title of the film without diacritics. Its common for non-native language speakers to search for a foreign language title without diacritics for the simple reason they may not be able to actually type the diacritics without difficulty. Nor may they be able to actually translate the title into whatever language they speak. It not being an English date has nothing to do with it. Only in death does duty end (talk) 12:18, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with Si Trew nominating a huge number of redirects per day. Many of the redirects he nominates are genuinely bad, and he's doing valuable work bringing them to RfD. But... Si Trew, if you stopped including several paragraphs of unrelated, barely related or repetitive text in so many discussions, that would save you enough time that you could have a deeper look into (and deeper think about) every redirect you nominate without slowing you down any overall.
Also, Thryduulf is not a bully; on the contrary, he's probably the single most valuable editor in RfD's history, and pretty much everybody else on RfD gets along with him spiffingly.
Also, this is pointy and you really shouldn't do things like that. And please stop nominating redirects that are identical to an obviously good redirect except for the straight lack of diacritics, unless really special circumstances apply; redirects like that are kept 99% of the time (like 15 fevrier 1839 would be), and nominating them just creates needless overhead. Sideways713 (talk) 12:27, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) Support throttling restriction of max. 20 nominations per day, per Thryduulf's suggestion, and further that SimonTrew must carry out the most basic of checks when nominating these redirects and make a sensible argument that discussion of the redirect on its own is required, and not mass-nominating redirects for the sole reason that they were created by a particular user or bot. Many of the nominations he's made since I've been back hanging around RfD in the last week or so have been somewhere between not well researched (e.g. Vikor) to completely obviously not necessary (e.g. Correao, Impact de Montreal) to basically nonsense (JZ series 664). These include one he nominated while arguing in the nomination statement that it should be kept (i.e. he acknowledged it did not need to be nominated at all but did so anyway, making administrative work for no reason). These nominations are disruptive to other editors at RfD, but the problem truly is that Si is completely shut down to any criticism of his actions, doubling down as he has here with angry attacks any time anybody attempts to address this situation and further insisting that his way is both the right way and the only way. You can't participate in a collaborative project if you are not open to collaboration, as Si is regrettably demonstrating. Nevertheless, some of the multitude of Si's nominations do result in redirects being modified, however the signal-to-noise ratio on these is exceptionally poor. If Si can learn to nominate only the ones that need nominating, we'll do much better at RfD. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 12:49, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

In any case and I have not read Ivanvector's comments, redirects are usually open for "about seven days". Says at the top of RfD. There is no great hurry for a bullying editor to spend five minutes to close them. Some of them may want comment from other editors. Si Trew (talk) 13:39, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Never mind. Your reliable sources probably lead back to the shite Eubot created if you look a bit closer. And as usual I'm the one being accused of being the arsehole here. Now, as for asides, I put them in on purpose to try to lighten the load, bring a little humour in because I know it is a burden. Still, just fuck off. Get someone else to do your hard work. Give me a fucking three year ban cos I have had enough of this shit. Si Trew (talk) 13:43, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

None so deaf as those who can't hear. There are far more newcomers and others that contribute to RfD than when I went on a break in January, from me listing these Eubots. Yes, I do a song-and-dance act. Sometimes I am even quite witty. Sometimes it's not your kind of humour. You have on your hands just today a professional translator who says "I should contribute more to RfD" and I said on I think her maybe his talk page. Don't bother. Go to WP:PNT. You won't be thanked for it. What kind of recommendation is that for the fucking nonsense at RfD. Fucking nonsense. I am trying to get a job done. If you don't like it, do the other thing. I don't mind R's being retargeted, that is exactly why I bring them to RfD when I say I am not sure. that is how we make the encylopaedia better. Now, when I say it should be kept, I would just keep it but it is another way of saying I am not really sure, I should like others' opinions on this. What else am I to do? Si Trew (talk) 13:53, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

When numerous editors in good standing have problems with the way you do things, you need to accept that it is likely you who are the problem. Blaming everyone else for having a problem with the way you do it is unproductive. You can either keep doing it the way you do and keep being brought to noticeboards (this is what, the 3rd, 4th time in as many months?) until everyone gets tired of it, or actually do what people ask you to do. Without the unnecessary attempts at wit and humour - no one is here to stroke your ego. Only in death does duty end (talk) 14:01, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

• Support ban from RfD, striking my earlier comment. Today Si's nominations include Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2017 April 26#Gyergyocsomafalva, a redirect to Ciumani, a commune in Romania (formerly Hungary) which is named Gyergyócsomafalva in Hungarian. tl;dr: this is another straight {{R from diacritics}}, he just keeps listing them after being asked by many editors now to stop. Instead, he called this "nonsense" and actually created a template just to illustrate this point, which someone (not me) is now going to have to delete. It's this bullshit that is the problem. It's not the first time Si has created pages just to make some point, usually directed at someone who has expressed concern with his behaviour. Admins can see his work at Ladies and gentelman I should like to annouce, a page he created so that he could embed an announcement of some Neelix-redirect-related milestone in an RfD thread. This is well past WP:IDHT and into WP:CIR territory. I would have blocked Si myself for his latest "fuck off" and "fucking nonsense" comments just now, but I am WP:INVOLVED, and while editing this I've struck out my bolded "from RfD" a number of times. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 14:19, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

You are just taking the piss. If you think "Gyergoscsomgalva" means something in Hungarian or English, tell me what it is. Please. I should be glad to hear it. It is not a straight R from dias it is WP:RFD#D5 nonsense. I was quite proud that we had got through half of the eubot redirects I thought everyone at RfD should be proud of that. I also created {{R from nonsense}} to put the rest of the fucking thirty thousand into. I don't see any barnstars coming my way yet. Si Trew (talk) 15:13, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

The article itself Ciumani says in the first line it is Gyergyócsomafalva in Hungarian, the redirect you nominated Gyergyocsomafalva is identical without diacritics. It is not 'nonsense'. Now you either have not read any of the information about redirects regarding diacritics which people have told you about repeatedly, or you didnt actually look at the article Ciumani which would be a massive failure of BEFORE. Only in death does duty end (talk) 15:26, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

There's no way he looks at the articles before he nominates them. As an example, he nominated Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2017 April 25#Bogus Linda with some nonsense rationale, referring to the subject with feminine pronouns. Literally a 5 second glance at the target article would be all you need to find out that Linda is, in fact, male. -- Tavix 15:46, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

• • Sigh, yes if I wasn't involved I'd have blocked him for those completely unnecessary expletives too. I hadn't looked in detail at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2016 May 20#Ladies and gentelman I should like to annouce before just now, but it was exceedingly pointy and DuncanHill's recommendation to block Si for disruption is looking sadly more necessary with every example brought here. Thryduulf (talk) 14:49, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
• Support ban from RfD As of today, the user is still being uncivil making personal attacks against bots in the log, here's an example:
  I am FED UP WITH THAT BOT THINKING IT KNOWS ABOUT LANGUAGE. Hippos is Greek for horse as in hippopotamus, river horse, hippodrome, and so on. Then give it a sugar lump, horse likes a sugar lump, that makes a horse hyppy. Then a birdie comes on its rump and it goes neigh or jae. Just.... please.... kill it... now... please. Si Trew (talk) 4:44 am, Today (UTC-4)
  Even though it seems to have support for deletion, this is unneeded for the RfD board. —JJBers 15:03, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

I was notified of an "Officially notified incident at RfD". Administrator User:Thryduulf puts in in his own words a lot of time at RfD and the two things he nomintated he specifically put his hands in at RfD. The clean hands doctrine only applies in real life does it. I have no idea what ] is saying, because he or her is never at RfD. Si Trew (talk) 15:10, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

@SimonTrew: I was citing a RfD you made earlier today, here is it for reference. —JJBers 15:15, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

The title of the section on Si Trew's talk page where I placed the required {{ANI-notice}} template is user talk:SimonTrew#Formal notification of ANI thread (the template doesn't provide a standard section heading). I don't understand what the rest of the comment is trying to say. Thryduulf (talk) 15:13, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

• Support ban from RfD at minimum. Frankly, I'd be inclined to indef and throw away the key unless a spectacularly good explanation was forthcoming for "I have a feeling the author of Eubot was Jewish.", and I have a strong suspicion that topic-banning SimonTrew from one area will just cause him to go be disruptive elsewhere. However, since there seems to be agreement between those who deal with him the most that the problems are primarily RfD-related, hopefully separating him from the area that's causing the most problems will allow him to do something useful in an area that won't provide a venue for his inappropriate attempts at comedy. The comparisons between Neelix and Eubot isn't valid; Neelix's edits were (in part) actively inappropriate and needed to be cleared up as soon as possible, whereas some of Eubot's redirects may be invalid, but aren't actually causing any harm, so there's no urgent need to rush through them that that would give SimonTrew any kind of "on urgent work" exemption from Misplaced Pages's usual written and unwritten rules on disruption and basic courtesy. ‑ Iridescent 15:20, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
  • If he does turn to disruption elsewhere then that would lead to a block. Hopefully it wont be necessary, but the spirit of WP:ROPE applies here I think, and his methods are wrong and the results significantly less successful than desired he is intending to improve the encyclopaedia so I think he should be given a chance to do that elsewhere first. Thryduulf (talk) 15:33, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
  • @Iridescent: I believe "I have a feeling the author of Eubot was Jewish" was stated because the bot created redirects related to Judaism. Neelix presumably created redirects related to Christianity. I don't think it was meant whatsoever in an antisemitic manner based on having read many comments by SimonTrew regarding a wide variety of topics at redirects for discussion over the past couple of years. — Godsy_CONT) 10:24, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
• Support RfD ban. Competence is required, and I'm afraid SimonTrew just doesn't have it. The egregious violations of WP:BEFORE, the nonsensical ramblings that don't pertain to the discussion at hand, the uncivil behavior every time someone tries to reason with him, and the sheer amount of work that RfD regulars have to put in to clean up after him is frankly exhausting. It's at the point where it's simply not worth it anymore. I'd bring in more examples, but I'm busy IRL at the moment. I'll just say that I endorse Ivanvector's analysis wholeheartedly. -- Tavix 15:35, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Striking "RfD" and recommending full ban per Just fucking ban me. Just do it. Not from RfD. From all of of it. -- Tavix 17:48, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

• Support ban from RFD: Instead of hearing the criticisms and using them to change their behavior, the user is doubling down and being quite uncivil in the process. I have no opinion on the length of the ban. --Darth Mike 16:21, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
• As another data point on the WP:CIR and creating needless work fronts, Admin's can see the deleted history of Olivia stecker where Si Trew endorsed his own PROD, then after the page had been deleted recreated the page with a commentary about something (I'm not really too sure what) before nominating it for speedy deletion under criterion WP:CSD#A9 which didn't apply (any of WP:CSD#G7, WP:CSD#A1 or WP:CSD#A3 would have though), the original article was in the scope of WP:CSD#A7 subject-matter wise but not content-wise. Thryduulf (talk) 16:36, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

If you want to restrict it to twenty a day, then get a WP:X1 concession. The consensus of the community was that we didn't need one. You can hardly then stick it on me that I list things. What else am I supposed to do? I dunno, shove it up an already WP:INVOLVED admin or what? Tell me what else can I do with them. Where else can I send them. Tell me. Si Trew (talk) 17:03, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Doubling down. What do you expect me to do do. I am taking personal attacks about making the encyclopaedia better. How would you like it? Doubling down. Just fucking ban me. Just do it. Not from RfD. From all of of it. Then at least I know where I stand. Si Trew (talk) 17:05, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

And as for JJBeers remark, since I can't seem to reply to them individually. You may have seen straight after that "I am fed up with the bot. I am not fed up with the person. I can be fed up with the bot because it is a bot." or words like that. You do your WP:BEFORE on it. Si Trew (talk) 17:08, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

@SimonTrew: I wasn't pointing out the redirect you nominated, but the content of the nomination, which shows you made personal attacks to a bot, which still violates that policy. —JJBers 17:12, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

not that i condone SimonTrew's behavior, but one can't make personal attacks against something that's not in any way a person. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 17:14, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

@Writ Keeper: I disagree. Any personal attack of a bot is in effect a personal attack of its operator. It's not at all conducive to a good editing atmosphere, and so I don't see why it should be tollerated at all. Thryduulf (talk) 17:21, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

@Thrydulf: It's effectively very much not. If any thing, it is criticism of the edits (the work the bot does) than the editor (the creator of the bot). Writ Keeper is absolutely right. — O Fortuna 13:42, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

It's kind of a moot point, since as I said, I don't condone SiTrew's behavior regardless of whether it's a PA or not (which is why I put it in the small tags). But I would argue that a bot is the work of its author in much the same way that a Misplaced Pages article is the work of its author; if criticizing a bot transitively criticized its author, then I would argue that implies that criticizing someone's edits or articles also transitively criticizes that person. Which of course is contra the whole idea of NPA: to comment on the contributions, not the contributor. I'd argue that a bot is an extension of the author's contributions, not an extension of the author themself. Granted, in this case, the criticism was not at all constructive or civil, and thus it's totally reasonable to call SiTrew out on it, and even sanction them for it. I just wouldn't do so in the name of NPA; in my mind, NPA is a fairly bright line, and I wouldn't want to see it eroded in the way that civility has. Maybe just me, though. I don't mind continuing this conversation if you'd like, but perhaps it should be elsewhere, since it's not really germane to this discussion? Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 17:31, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

I don't have time now, but I'll think about your points and if I want to continue discussing it, I'll find somewhere more appropriate (WT:NPA perhaps) and ping you as I agree it's not really the best place here. Thryduulf (talk) 17:47, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

This is pretty clearly a comment directed at the creator of the bot. Is it an attack? Depends on context I suppose, but consider the rest of the comment is comparing the bot's behaviour to the "sins" of another editor. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 18:13, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

I'll argue against you. You may have noticed I have never mentioned the nbot author's history but I did some WP:BEFORE and had made a total of fifteen edits mostly minor before this bot was allowed to run. I don't have the problem with the author (retired) nor the bot. That is a sorry state of affairs in 2008 that after a test run of 14-- yes, 14-- successful edits it was then allowed out to wreak havoc. Now, you don't see me naming names. I can have a go at User:Eubot because it is a bot, that is like kicking a kitchen cupboard when you've cut your thumb. It is not like kicking your wife when you've cut your thumb. I am not just allowed but I think entitled to moan about Eubot because I am the one editor here on Misplaced Pages that is actually methodically trogging through these things. Look at my contribution history today. I must have rtagged and rcatted at least twentyfive as keepers. Of course the ones at RfD are going to cause trouble. I do have a braim in my head. The admin who brought this here is WP:INVOLVED so it surprises me to see making further comments. Si Trew (talk) 17:57, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

I can be pissed off with the bot but I am not pissed off with he or she. They did what they thought right. That is what we all have to do. Sometimes we get it wrong. But that doesn't make you a bad person. I can have a go at the bot because it has no feelings. I would have a pint with the person who created them and say what were you thinking of? You're wrong but you're not bad. The creator only made about fifty edits. Dutch it seems from the name. Well, someone has to clear up the shit. Still, I would have a pint. I am never angry with a person. I am only angry with what they do. Those are different things

(edit conflict) Template:Replto We're not complaining that you are listing things. We are complaining that you are not taking enough care with your nominations, which combined with the volume of your nominations is causing significant disruption. I'm not at all sure what the lack of an X1 concession (which I would agree is not needed, as the proportion of bad redirects is so small and there is no urgency) has to do with anything. As for "doubling down" what we would like you to do is to listen to the complaints that people have about your actions and change your behaviour accordingly. Instead what you have done is made personal attacks while carrying on doing exactly the same thing people are complaining about. Thryduulf (talk) 17:19, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

You're WP:INVOLVED, User:Thryduulf. You were the one spouting off at RfD and you're WP:INVOLVED. clean hands doctrine please. Stand off. Si Trew (talk) 17:57, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

That's not how it works, SimonTrew. INVOLVED is a policy that relates to administrative actions, i.e. actions that involve the actual use of admin tools--it would only apply to Thryduulf if they were actually going to block you or something. It doesn't apply to everything an admin does, just because they're an admin. Bringing an issue up on ANI, and continuing to discuss it, does not involve the use of admin tools, and so INVOLVED doesn't apply. We're neither the police nor the court system, and the clean hands doctrine isn't Misplaced Pages policy. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 18:03, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

• Ban/block/trout for taking redirects way too seriously. Honestly, if these Eubot redirects are causing you so much stress, go do something else. The encyclopedia is not going to implode because of some silly redirects. clpo13_(talk) 18:41, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

NO it wont ((edit conflict) I don't give a shit about Misplaced Pages's ] system. I am being treated unfairly. I worked not "five minutes" like the prosecutors says but hours and hours and hours over these fucking things. I sometimes can't remember what language I speak. I have worked so damned hard over them that sometimes I literally can't tell left from right. Then I am told to do WP:BEFORE. I take it as implicit that I do it. What am I supposed to fucking do, list every eubot redirect as "WP:BEFORE I listed this I checked on Google and could not find anything, and it is still WP:RFD#D5 nonsense". In any case, as I have said many times, WP:BEFORE does not apply to redirects it applies to articles. I have no requirement to do WP:BEFORE at all. I have a requirement, in my head, to make the encylopaedia better by making it easier for people to get to the information they want. Not pissing about at ANI by an editor who has a grudge against me. Now, shall I get on to try to make the encylopaedia better are all you all little admins going to waste more of my precious editor's time? Si Trew (talk) 18:48, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Are you going to stop wasting peoples time with RFD's that are obviously pointless and where you have done zero checks to see if it is a valid redirect? Only in death does duty end (talk) 18:50, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

If your time is so precious, why are you wasting it on increasingly pseudolegalistic arguments defending a practice every other editor commenting here has cautioned you about? Why not use some of that precious time editing in one of the literally thousands of other areas? Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 19:01, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

They're not pseudolegal. I am one of the very few editors I imagine who has actually stood up in court and said yes your honour and no your worship. I know that this is WP:NOTLAW. It is not a kangaroo court either. Si Trew (talk) 19:07, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

I also do actually find its slightly offensive that ] even in listing here could not be bothered to get my name right. Si Trew (talk) 19:02, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

• Support RfD throttling - I don't care about redirects really, as long as they redirect to an appropriate target I'm happy. What I do care about is people creating extra work for Misplaced Pages editors - who are, after all, volunteers, not paid for our time - especially when they're told that they're creating extra work and they pig-headedly refuse to cooperate. Redirects are like the bits of a building between two walls, or between the ceiling and the floorboards of the room above - there's a lot of crap in there but it really isn't worth worrying about. Exemplo347 (talk) 19:31, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Thryduulf is not the only admin at RfD. Other admins such as User:Tavix have got their adminship from RfD. Thryduulf don't own the shop. The accusations of bullying still hold. I think it is just a simple case of bullying. "I'm an admin do as I say, love, Thryduulf". Well, some people stand up to bullies. Now, let me see how many things Thryduulf has listed in his adminship at RfD.... er.... sorry I don't have a finger to count 0. Si Trew (talk) 19:49, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

I care about exactly what you care about User:Exemplo347. This is a storm in a teapot. And it's a bit ridiculous to suggest throttling it to 20 a day. I am the only editor doing it. I don't see anyone else doing it. There are spits and spats but I go through the lists because we don't have, by amazing consensus, a WP:X1 concession. The very admin who is now nominating me said it was not needed. I forget the greek word but in English it is, um what is the word, when you say one thing and do another. I better check on Wiktionary. I could have got on and done some real work and made the encylopaediae better were it not for this fuss. I will try to start doing that right now. It is the last I have to say on the matter. Si Trew (talk) 19:49, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

• Support ban from RfD The combination of WP:IDHT and many very questionable RfD's seems to require that. Nothing short of a ban will seem to stop him. I wish there was another way.... -Obsidi (talk) 20:06, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
• I have blocked SimonTrew for 31 hours for this new set of personal attacks, notwithstanding INVOLVED. If you would like, please discuss this block at AN. This block is not intended to conclude this discussion. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 20:15, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Wow, 31 hours is lenient given the block log. That being said, I think this is further evidence that a full ban is necessary, given this took place outside of RfD. -- Tavix 20:26, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure a full site ban is necessary over those personal attacks, but he might need more than a 31 hour block. You might even want an indef block until he at least says he understands the problem with this behavior and that he wont repeat it. -Obsidi (talk) 20:39, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

• Support ban from RfD Sigh, maybe he will find something better to do with his time. Only in death does duty end (talk) 20:56, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
• Support ban from RfD - Frankly, I agree with the comment above that, given this editor's stance he's likely to move to another area and cause similar problems there, so an indef or site ban would be justified, but since we don't do preventative blocks of that nature (but probably should), we can start where the immediate problem lies, as shown by both ST's editing behavior and his comments in this very discussion. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:25, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

I believe we have enough people in support of a topic ban that we can implement it at this point. Thoughts? —JJBers 21:32, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

• note I've renamed the tread and changed all instances of "SiTrew" in my comments to "Si Trew" per his comments above and on my talk page. I have not changed any other comments. Thryduulf (talk) 21:36, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
• I won't bold vote an opinion, because I don't frequent RFD and don't have a good feel for this. I just want to ask a question to the RFD regulars who know him better than drive-by ANI watchers. Si Trew has been here 10 years and made 61,000 edits, much of it redirect related. Surely most of them valuable? Instead of an RFD ban (or a site ban), would it make sense to narrow the scope? Perhaps a 2 week ban from RFD until he calms down? Or a ban from nominating Eubot redirects? It depends on whether he's generally a help at RFD but is getting overwhelmed by the scope of Eubot's contribs, or if he's generally not a help. I get the sense that he's generally a help (I see @Thryduulf: saying nice things on his talk page from December, and I recall @Tavix: being pretty patient during a previous dispute because he does do good work). But it looks like when he gets a bee in his bonnet, he becomes difficult for others to work with. Maybe focus more on getting the bee out of his bonnet? --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:41, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Simply put, Simon is a net-negative at RfD. Sure, he's got a lot of contributions, but it seems like every other one is an off topic rant, remark or what have you. I'll admit I've got a very long leash, but I feel it's been completely used up. The current flavor of the day is Eubot, before it was Neelix, and his obsession with Neelix didn't end until a months long block. I'm sure if it's restricted to Eubot, he'll find another situation to flood RfD with. This is, what, the seventh or eighth ANI thread dealing with Simon? At what point will we realize that he simply doesn't have enough clue to operate as a competent editor on this site? -- Tavix 22:02, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Fair enough; I've blocked him more than anyone, so I'm not trying to be his Official Apologist or anything. Just seems a bit of a shame, after being complimented for his Eubot work a few months ago. Perhaps it's my knee-jerk reaction to people talking about a 10-year editor as clueless and incompetent. I do know what you mean, it just seems... a shame, like I said. I won't try to oppose anything here. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:07, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

A few years ago there weren't many problems with him though. They've gotten significantly worse as the years go on. It's like he's degenerating or something. -- Tavix 22:32, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Possibly. I know I'm degenerating. Getting old kind of sucks (Speaking for myself, not Si Trew). --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:35, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Amen to that. -- Tavix 22:39, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict × 2) Currently the negatives (which have been increasing) significantly outweigh the positives (which have been decreasing). If he is to return to RfD it must be with a rate throttle, a demonstrated understanding of the point of WP:BEFORE and a requirement to demonstrate he has carefully thought about each redirect nominated. A restriction from redirects related to foreign languages, diacritics and/or mass-created redirects would be the minimum necessary before I'd consider his return. At the start of this thread I would have accepted just the throttle, but it's become clearer the more others have commented that the level of competence displayed has been worse than I was initially aware of. Thryduulf (talk) 22:12, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

• Full site ban, somewhat regrettably. In a nutshell, I agree with the ultimate conclusion Tavix made; if SimonTrew's gotten to a point where he's requesting a full site ban on himself, let's just do it. I recall in the past, SimonTrew was indefinitely blocked for legal threats, in addition to all the other RfD-related blocks he's had. At this point, as much as SimonTrew has been cordial (and the opposite) to me in the past, it's quite difficult to see how he's still a WP:NETPOSITIVE for the project with his recent serious lack of WP:BEFORE research on his recent nominations, plus his off-topic comments on RfD nominations are getting to a point where they are now throwing red herrings into the discussions. In addition, with SimonTrew's editing style and personality, I don't see how he could follow a "daily-limit" ban, and editors' daily monitoring of such activity from SimonTrew would be rather exhausting. In my conclusion, at the present time, SimonTrew's capability to provide beneficial additions to Misplaced Pages is nearly nonexistent, and he and the entire community need a break from his contributions. Steel1943 (talk) 22:51, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

  In addition, I think WP:ROPE was referenced in regards to only banning SimonTrew from WP:RFD and not all of Misplaced Pages. My response to that idea: SimonTrew honestly has been provided "WP:ROPE" so many times now that the rope has been destroyed. The amount of editor resources it takes to reel him back in after any of his tangents, whether they contain malice or not, is too taxing on editors and admins. (I mean, legal threats and RfD are two exclusively-different issues.) This really shouldn't be allowed again ... since, at this point, the rope is figuratively broken. Steel1943 (talk) 23:00, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

I'm not a fan of "community bans" and in this case, I wonder if it is truly necessary. The proposal for a restriction on their editing in a problematic area is nearing a consensus and they are currently blocked for incivility and personal attacks. If they return and continue then there appears to be ample behavioral and policy grounds for extending new blocks of longer lengths, including indefinite, at admin discretion. Creating a site ban adds a layer of punitiveness that seems unhelpful and non-constructive. It is also harder to undo a community site ban. I recognize that the difficulty in removing a community site ban strikes some as a feature instead of a bug. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 23:32, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

I'm not a fan of site bans either, but given the extent of what SimonTrew has done in regards to legal threats, bombastic off-topic outbursts and the addition of flooding RfD with nominations that lack WP:BEFORE research, I truly think that it is the best option in this case. I've been following SimonTrew's activity for about 4 years now, so I'm not making claim that he needs a full site ban without any knowledge of some hard evidence to back it up. Looking back on SimonTrew's block log, the indefinite block that he had for legal threats lasted for about 3 months (June 2016–September 2016) and after that was lifted, here we are at yet another issue created by SimonTrew that needs immediate attention and requires an ANI discussion. All of these back-and-forth issues are really becoming taxing for the community. And given the fact that SimonTrew is familiar with how to go through the venues to request getting unblocked when he doesn't have talk page access (such as WP:UTRS), and since he had to go through that since his talk page access was revoked during that time, he'd have to go through it again to get the ban lifted with the stipulation that lifting a ban takes more than lifting a block, possibly including consensus to lift the ban. Seriously, if I thought at this point just banning SimonTrew from RfD would prevent any further issues he may cause, such as legal threats, I'd be all for it. But at this point, it's almost like he's already used up any chances he had to redeem himself after all of these issues, especially with his mannerisms of interacting with others on Misplaced Pages. Steel1943 (talk) 23:53, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

You have obviously more familiarity with this editor than I. I hardly ever go to RfD, for example. I will humbly defer to your greater expertise on the issue. The only community site ban I have had previous familiarity with was SlitherioFan2016, who was banned for obvious and repeated trolling and block-evasion . I didn't think this editor has raised anything like the trouble that one did, so I expressed caution. Especially since, as Softlavender says, they are currently unable to reply it seemed proper to wait until the current block expired to see if it has any benefit. Perhaps, though, they have reached that level of disruption that simple WP:CIR or WP:NOTHERE indefinite blocks are not sufficient. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 00:29, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

While I would support a WP:CIR block (I'm still thinking about whether I support a ban), a WP:NOTHERE block is not justified. Si Trew is attempting to improve the encyclopaedia, and I think believes that he is doing so with his RfD nominations - indeed some of them are beneficial (just not enough to be a net positive, at least at the moment). The problem is with the results of his actions, and refusal to act on feedback about them, that are the issue not his intent. Thryduulf (talk) 01:24, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

• Comment: I'm inclined to recommend waiting until SimonTrew's short block has expired before any admin closes this thread. I'd like to see whether at this point he understands the problematical nature of his behaviors, and what he intends to do (or not do) to correct that. If he is unable to do (respond to) those two things satisfactorily, well, then there is indeed a WP:CIR issue and measures should be taken in accordance with an admin's assessment of the consensus in this thread and the nature of the overall problem(s). Softlavender (talk) 23:35, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
• COmment Y'all know I hate incivility, so I am more than displeased with an edit summary like this. If Si can't behave around others without resorting to rudeness, PA, and incivility, they shouldn't do work that requries them to work with others, who may have a differing opinion. L3X1 (distant write) 01:42, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

break

Od Mishehu has extended Simon's block (based on the discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard#INVOLVED block of User:SimonTrew) to 3 weeks so that it now expires at 20:06, 18 May 2017. That is a very long time for a thread to be open at AN/I and I'd rather this not get archived without an actual conclusion, whether that is for a topic ban, indef block, ban, some combination of these or nothing. Personally I would like to see a topic ban from RfD (defined below) and nominating redirects for speedy deletion appealable separately to an appeal of a block or ban at least 3-6 months of productive collaborative editing elsewhere (at which either a conditional or unrestricted return could be discussed). I'm inclined, and to say that the three-week block is sufficient for the personal attacks yesterday. I don't know if it's been done before, but a suspended community ban that could be implemented by agreement of 2-3 uninvolved administrators in the event of his being blocked for disruption, legal threats, etc. is something I think worth considering. I'm not sure whether breach of the topic ban should be a trigger for such ban or not, but I'm leaning yes as it's an area that is quite easy to define (unlike say "Pseudoscience"). I would consider at topic ban from RfD to encompass:

• Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion and it's talk page
• Subpages of Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion and their talk pages
• Any templates with names starting "RfD" (in any capitalisation)
• Any redirect currently (i.e. at the time of the edit) tagged as nominated at RfD, and the talk page of any such redirect.

Thryduulf (talk) 10:10, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

I support that definition pretty much. —JJBers 13:07, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

@JJBers: I moved your comment here. Your edit here has oddly duplicated the entire thread. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 13:30, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Great, the visual source editor is broken. —JJBers 13:42, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

• I too would not like to see Simon blocked indefinitely. His passion for improving the encyclopedia is obvious, he is just unable at this point to accept that his enthusiasm for redirects is seriously impeding other editors who would also like to improve the encyclopedia, to the point that he needs to have a community-imposed break from that venue. I have seen no evidence that his disruptive behaviour here would carry over to other areas of the encyclopedia. As for the ban from RfD, I would like to see it defined as a ban from all redirect deletion, broadly construed. This would include RfD itself and all its subpages and templates, tagging redirects for deletion (speedy or otherwise), and discussing speedy deletion criteria related to redirects. I'm not sure what Thryduulf means by the discussion of a "suspended community ban": topic ban violations are normally addressed by blocking. I think it's already pretty clear that Simon's next block for a civility concern (NPA, NLT, etc) will be indefinite. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 13:26, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Also, where are these "lists" of Eubot redirects? I've not been able to find them. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 13:26, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

User:Champion/Eubot list. Sideways713 (talk) 13:47, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

• Rather clear definition ... but will probably be breached at some point. Per my comments regarding implementing a full site ban on SimonTrew, given his history of blocks and actions, my ability to have confidence that such a ban will be followed is, unfortunately, very low. As I stated above that my opinion that SimonTrew should have a full site ban is "somewhat regrettably", it's because as Thryduulf and Ivanvector have alluded, he really is performing all of the edits on RfD in good faith and belief that he is making improvements to Misplaced Pages. However, the actions he takes following most edits he performs at RfD causes commotion that results in blocks (such as legal threats). If a RfD ban is the route that we are going to take (which I say is rather lenient at this point), then due to his history, after the first offense of breaking such a ban, the response shouldn't be a limited time or indefinite block ... it should immediately be a full site ban. Steel1943 (talk) 14:35, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
• Request for Clarification: What about existing redirects? Would Si Trew be able to change existing redirects? For example: Let's say A redirects to B; would Si Trew be permitted to change A to redirect to C? Likewise, what about tagging for speedy deletion? --Darth Mike 18:48, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
  • @Steel1943, Ivanvector, and Darth Mike: I agree that including nominating redirects at RfD should be included in the definition of breaching a ban from RfD, I'll add it above. CSD is not part of RfD so should be specified separately, i.e. "topic banned from RFD (defined as above) and from nominating redirects at CSD". I strongly dislike "deletion of redirects" because RFD is Redirects for discussion and Si does nominate redirects there for retargetting or further input* and I don't want there to be room to wikilawyer that a nomination for retargetting was not breaching a "deletion of redirects" topic ban. Retargetting a redirect without involving RfD is not covered by the currently proposed topic ban, I had not thought about it before you mentioned it (thank you!) so I am presently unsure whether we do want to restrict him from that or not. If we do, it should be as a third bullet to the topic ban not lumping it in with the RfD bullet.

  * This is fine when done coherently, with thought and not rapid fire - see my nomination at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2017 April 27#Foreign language redirects to Portugal (Group 3) from earlier today for how it can be done. Thryduulf (talk) 19:37, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

• I'm pretty neutral on whether Simon should be banned from editing redirects entirely. When Si does take the time to actually analyze a redirect and its background and utility, he's usually right, or at least his action can be justified. The problem of late has been that he is not taking this time and just rapidly nominating huge lists of redirects for discussions with no apparent forethought at all, and also the outbursts when he's confronted on this. I think it would be fine to allow Si to go off and edit redirects on his own where he believes that editing them improves the encyclopedia, to the extent that he can do so without interacting with RfD. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 23:49, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

• Comment: I think Od Mishehu's extension of Simon Trew's block was a mistake that did not take into account the fact that Simon Trew's input is needed (in my opinion) to fully resolve this thread. Now he cannot comment on this ANI thread. If he was able to comment, he could possibly assure us now that he understands what he has been doing that is problematical, and propose what he is going to do to change his behaviors. We could also see if he has calmed down and is refraining from personal attacks. Now that he can no longer comment here, and there are so many proposals on the table including a full site ban or indef block, I don't feel that this thread is going to wind up in as productive a resolution as it could if ST were able to comment further. Softlavender (talk) 01:18, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Simon can comment on his talk page if he desires, and Ivanvector has made that clear after his block was extended. -- Tavix 01:20, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Simon has put some additional comments on his talk page which I can't copy over at the moment (my phone doesn't have enough memory). Ivanvector (/_Edits) 10:11, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Simon's comments from his talk page are below (copied by Thryduulf (talk) 10:45, 28 April 2017 (UTC)):

@Ivanvector: OK. Here is my basic position. There are thirteen lists of User:Eubot redirectd on them. Many of them, as was said yesterday at the ANI by a professional translator, a new to me editor. (who to make it clear I did not magic up like I can magic up User:Plantdrew on botanical subjects or User:Mjroots on railways).)

It's too many. We don't have a WP:X1 concession. What am I supposed to do, take each to WP:CSD? Then we would end up in the same boat with the admins at CSD saying I am flooding them. It's too many.

User:Champion made the lists, I am going through them. If you want WP:RFD#D5 nonsense such as Thoekoely at an encyclopaedia, have it. I don't.

My WP:BEFORE is to check the internal consistency of our encyopadia. Techinically WP:BEFORE does not apply to redirects anyway, but let's not get hung up on it like User:Thryduulf does. My job, as I see or saw it, is to go through the eubot ones and say "is this greenisholives" or is it "green olives"?". That is all I can do. Si Trew (talk) 06:40, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Here's my secondary position. Apart from speaking French, English, a bit of Hungarian and some other languages, more than that, I have a kinda "connecting" mind. It just makes connections all the time I wish it didn't sometimes. I just "connect" things all the time. For example right now I just remembered it was E.M. Forster who said "Only Connect" and Victoria Cohen Mitchell has a tv programme. I can do that without checking. I am that good. Si Trew (talk) 06:47, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Ok I got her name wrong. Alan Coren her father one of the funniest men you will ever read. See. Si Trew (talk) 06:49, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

And as for personal attacks, the thing is that "Simon Trew" is my real name. So, yes, I do start treating it as a personal attack. I am an idiot for using my real name, I suppose, but I don't hide behind a veil. It is my stupidity nine years ago but if I switched names now what good would that do? Nobody's. As we all know, Misplaced Pages is not the whole world. I don't want "Simon Trew" to become a synonym for "idiot". Si Trew (talk) 08:54, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Do you know how to get started with something. You just get started. In the time this ANI nonsense has gone on I have painted a new hallway and fixed my house and various other jobs, all for no money. Oh and got meself a new house which is in about the same state as these redirects are. The way to get started is to get started. I am a bit fed up nobody else seems to join in, but you can hardly blame me for flooding. Five or six other editors could join in. The fact I am doing it on my own is some testament to why people don't like to edit at WP. Si Trew (talk) 10:09, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

My initial reaction to those comments is that they show he still doesn't understand what the problem is, and if unblocked today would just return to flooding RfD with poorly checked (or unchecked) nominations and rambling off-topic commentary. Thryduulf (talk) 10:50, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Further comment from Si:

"I think it would only be fair if you take out my hazardous contributsions you also take out all the {{R from other spelling}} and {{other language|fr|en}} or whatnot that I do from Eubot without bringing to RfD. Can you please copy that in too, User:Thryduulf? And I am sorry if it felt like a personal attack on you. It was not. I think you were wrong to bring it, absolutely and then go "Right, I've warned you, next time, you're at ANI" and then SMACK I am at ANI. That is not how Misplaced Pages works. Can you please add those comments at ANI because I can't. Si Trew (talk)" copied by Thryduulf (talk) 10:58, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

• Right so since the above is basically stream-of-conciousness irrelevant waffle, can someone put this thread out of its misery? Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:02, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

• In terms of Simon Trew's usertalk comments now copied over: Although they are no longer outright personal attacks, they are still pretty much rambling self-justifying meanderings (one kicker is "I can do that without checking. I am that good.") Regardless of whether Eubot is a problem or not (that is a subject for another conversation and probably for another venue), I'm worried that we do have a CIR problem with Simon, and that his ability even to communicate clearly, much less collaborate and learn, is somewhat questionable. Softlavender (talk) 11:29, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
• Yes, I'm increasingly now thinking we need a block or ban and a topic ban that will take effect if/when he returns. I'm obviously way too involved with this to close this thread but the topic ban (from RfD and from nominating for redirects for speedy deletion) at least looks to have widespread agreement. Whether it should be a block or ban is less clear, but I'm leaning towards the latter. It's such a shame how quickly this keeps getting worse. Thryduulf (talk) 12:20, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
• Support RfD ban of indefinite length. It is clear from the comments copied from their talk page above they have not heard any of the concerns expressed and intend to continue as before as soon as they can. It is conceivable that they will, after some period of time, realize why their RfD interactions were damaging and can request dropping the ban at that time. I'm of no mind to even attempt to determine what that length of time might be, however. I think it should also be made explicitly clear that their leash on civility matters upon return from the current block is extremely short. Is "civility probation" still a thing? Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 21:05, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

• No, it's not, Eggishorn. ArbCom has had some unpleasant experiences of what's likely to happen if an editor has a target painted on their back by a "civility probation", and it's been a long time since they tried it. The community shouldn't either. They're cursed things. Bishonen | talk 21:20, 28 April 2017 (UTC).

Fair enough. Sounds reasonable. Thanks for filling in the blank space in my memory. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 21:23, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

• Comment - I just want to say that I !voted above for an RfD ban, and that Simon Trew's comments copied here from his talk page have not changed my mind one bit - in fact, they've hardened my position, and have started me thinking that an even stronger sanction might be warranted. My advice to Simon Trew would be: If you want to keep editing here, stop commenting, you're only hurting yourself. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:19, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose full site ban - I cannot, regrettably, oppose a ban from redirects for discussion, but I don't think a full site ban is due at this time. — Godsy_CONT) 10:29, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
• I will endorse above statements above noting that Si Trew's refusal to do a WP:BEFORE check (technically not mentioned at RFD, but which definitely should be) for Eubot redirects is disruptive and a time sink. We have better things to do than perform simple Google Searches on his behalf. Unlike the Neelix redirects, which could impugn Misplaced Pages's reputation through having an admin redirect things like "tubular titties" to breast cancer, the Eubot redirects are mostly harmless. At worst, the transliterated redirect blocks valid DAB pages or has a better target due to changes since the bot was run. Many of them are perfectly valid redirects which Si Trew refuses to recognize because of his prescriptivist take on how redirects should work, because he seems to believe that all readers should be forced to perfectly reproduce any diacritic in the original language, which is at odds with WP:DIACRITIC. Some of the more questionable ones are at worst a redirect from a spelling which is a plausible pronunciation, and which can be deleted or kept without much harm either way. I would endorse Thryduulf's restrictions above, but also offer the following terms as suggestions:

• A ban from nominating redirects for speedy deletion, which would circumvent the purpose of the RFD ban, and could be abused given widespread misuse of WP:G6;
• A ban from retargeting (but not refining) redirects, Si Trew has advanced some rather implausible alternate theories for where a redirect could/should target to , ;
• An exception for Si Trew to make one RFD nomination per day, notwithstanding any other part of the ban, provided that he supplies a clear explanation for why the status quo should not be kept and URL links to demonstrate that a Google News/Books/Scholar search has been done per BEFORE. This would allow some of the good work that he does to still be done (e.g. creating a valid DAB page, adding hatnotes, created a valid DAB page). If the proposed change would be at IAR levels of obviousness, then the RFD can always be snow closed to get the correct result. Any violation of this clause will result in its removal. ---- Patar knight - /_{contributions} 07:16, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
  • Yes, I included a ban from CSD in my proposal so I obviously agree with that. I don't agree with the one nomination a day, as while he does sometimes do good work, I think he needs a complete clean break from RfD and the restriction needs to be very simple so there there is no possibility of wikilawyering, indeed I prefer the restriction suggested by someone above from editing redirects completely over your second bullet for the same reasons. Thryduulf (talk) 09:42, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
    • Fair. I would be okay with those conditions as well since the mass nomination of Eubot redirects has been pretty disruptive, but would prefer a more lenient approach at least to start.---- Patar knight - /_{contributions} 12:50, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose any indef blocks/bans, I think some Wikipedians are way too happy to swing the banhammer. From what I have seen of him prior to this incident, Mr. Trew is constructive and intelligent. Thryduulf, nominating a bunch of redirects for discussion is not a reason to block or ban someone. You are acting like it is your problem, but it is not. I have not encountered him outside of RFD, so I can't say anything about CSD or the like, but to do something as crazy as to indefinitely block/ban him would be a serious loss to RfD. I don't like this turning on him I'm seeing. I thought sanctions are not supposed to be a form of punishment, but instead are to prevent further damage. Guys, I just don't think kicking Si Trew out is the effective or moral way to go.--Mr. Guye (talk) 21:57, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose any indef blocks/bans I fully endorse the comments above by Mr. Guye. Jschnur (talk) 22:07, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

  (edit conflict) I'm sorry, Mr. Guye, but I have to ask whether you've actually looked at the diffs and links provided in this thread and read his comments in response to the concerns raised and then his responses after getting blocked? This is not just "nominating a bunch of redirects at RfD" it's:

  • • Flooding RfD with 50-70 or more nominations a day, despite repeatedly being asked not to (WP:IDHT).
    • Not conducting even the most basic elements of WP:BEFORE before nominating redirects, despite being repeatedly asked to (WP:IDHT, WP:CIR).
    • Continuing to nominate redirects without actually presenting a reason to delete or retarget them, and sometimes even arguing for keeping them as is, despite being repeatedly asked to (WP:IDHT, WP:CIR).
    • Repeatedly nominating redirects that are correct according to policy (particularly WP:DIACRITICS), despite being repeatedly asked to (WP:IDHT).
    • Repeatedly nominating redirects that there is a firm consensus to keep (e.g. ä → ae in Germanic language names/titles), despite being repeatedly asked to (WP:IDHT). Together these mean that he is causing hours (literally) of extra work for other volunteers who have to check his work and clean up after him.
    • Continuing to post off-topic rambles in RfD discussions, despite being repeatedly asked to. This and all the above are seriously disrupting RfD (WP:IDHT, WP:CIR) and has been ongoing (and getting worse) for months.
    • Responding to criticism with personal attacks (WP:NPA).
    • Creating article space pages to make a point or comment (WP:POINT, doubly so when the comment is being made in the wrong place).

    Links and diffs for all of these (and more) are in this thread, and it is everybody other than you who is seeing his actions at RfD as a very significant problem, which is why I wonder if you've been actually looking at the evidence provided. The good he does in relation to redirects is being very signficantly outweighed by the negatives. I didn't want to see him indeffed and banned from RfD - I wanted a rate limit and a requirement to do WP:BEFORE for each nomination, but every response he's given has made things worse for him as he's making it increasingly clear is not willing to work collaboratively with other editors at the current time. Thryduulf (talk) 22:33, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

April 19 was a relatively quiet day for Si's nominations at RfD as there were only 48 of them (it's rare that most people make more than 5 in a single day). 7 are still open and 1 has been relisted. Of the 40 that have been closed, none were nominated for retargetting:

• 5 were withdrawn - 1 with a factually inaccurate nomination, 2 after complete failures to do WP:BEFORE were highlighted, and 2 where he replied to his own nomination with a recommendation to keep before anyone else commented.
• 8 were deleted
• 1 was retargetted
• 26 were kept (2 speedily kept because the nomination didn't actually include a reason for deletion or retargetting) - over 50%. Thryduulf (talk) 22:49, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

  I endorse the above reply by Thryduulf. Anyone with a similar track record of ignoring WP:BEFORE at AFD would already be sanctioned. Si Trew's actions require RFD volunteers to waste hours doing simple Google searches which he could've done himself, simply so valid redirects are not deleted. Given the vast number of nominations, I would not be surprised if some redirects that should have been kept fell through the cracks and were deleted. I would add that unlike AFD, mass nominations make the main RFD page slow to load, because it transcludes all the daily logs with open entries (the default assumption is that there will not be a flood of nominations). The slow load time has been brought up at WT:RFD a couple times already. , ---- Patar knight - /_{contributions} 12:50, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

  @Mr. Guye and Jschnur: I second this endorsement. If it were just that he was making a lot of nominations, we wouldn't be here. If it were just that he sometimes makes poor decisions with regard to nominations, we could correct that if he would ever accept criticism. But he doesn't: you can see here and here and here (or above) the sort of non sequitur response you get if you ever try to suggest that he's doing something wrong, and always he continues to do those things. This has been going on basically continuously since the Neelix redirects came to light in about November 2014, other than at times that Si has found himself blocked for things like one of his rambles containing an explicit legal threat. Repeatedly doing things you've been asked not to do is disruptive, and banning him from RfD is to prevent any more of his disruption related to that venue. As an example of how this behaviour is specifically disruptive, observe this nomination which Si listed for no reason and then immediatedly withdrew, but he did not remove the notice of discussion from the redirect, breaking it. It's likely this has happened dozens or hundreds of times from his rapid and careless mass nominations, and it's likely he's creating a secondary cleanup project for the rest of us. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 16:03, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

  I endorse the comments of Thryduulf, Patar knight and Ivanvector above. I would only add that the problems at RfD aren't limited to Si Trew's own nominations; his off-topic ramblings have disrupted other editors' nominations, and his lack of competence and inability to take in what his fellow editors say has been on full display in discussions started by others as well. And as others said above, the big problem is that Si Trew responds to criticism by digging in deeper and descending to personal attacks and even legal threats; and that instead of learning from his mistakes, he has become more and more disruptive over time. Most regulars at RfD would be happy to tolerate (indeed, for years already, have tolerated) most of Si Trew's quirks; but it's become clearer and clearer that he's not willing to work together with other users, and that his failure to do so is causing too many problems to just ignore. No one's happy that he has to be banned, and anyone who's spent any length of time at RfD knows that he does do good stuff there. It's a pity that he can't stick to the good stuff and drop the rest; but unfortunately, he insists on drowning the baby in increasing amounts of bathwater, and his behavior has made it clear that isn't likely to change. Sideways713 (talk) 19:49, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Bottom line

• So what's the bottom line here? It seems like we have a mix of (1) full topic ban from RfDs, broadly construed, to (2) an indef or site ban. Is there any perceived harm in giving Si a bit more WP:ROPE and stopping at the TBan, or are his CIR issues demonstrably too far gone to waste time on that and therefore we should skip right to indef? Asking so that this thread can be effectively understood and closed by an admin. Is this thread ready for consensus to be assessed and closed? If everyone has said their peace, there's probably no point in repeating your !vote, but if you haven't !voted, do so now as I think this thread is nearing completion. Softlavender (talk) 12:34, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
• Effectively my support is for a ban from suggesting changes to redirects, but not from making changes. That covers tagging any redirect for CSD or xfD, discussing on its talk page, or discussing anything to do with RfD anywhere, but not from modifying an existing redirect. My observation is that Si knows how redirects should work and can make good decisions, but he doesn't seem to be able to do it without "looking busy", i.e. spamming RfD with completely unnecessary discussions. If he can just go do it, fine. Until it becomes apparent that that is a problem, I don't support banning him from that activity. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 17:20, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Havenx23

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Since starting an account in Nov 2016, this user's sole focus has been changing the first appearance of Gambit (comics) and now Wolverine (character). After a discussion at the Comic project talk page, he continued to change against consensus without sources for three days before disappearing. He reappeared in March with the same behavior. I reminded him of the prior discussion on his talk page, and he vanished again for a month. He reappeared recently doing the same thing, and another polite warning from me resulted in a wall-of-text that ended with a declaration that he will not stop until he gets his way. He has since continued to modify the articles. Based on this comment from last September where he uses the word "buying" to explain his point of view, I believe he may be a dealer who is trying to profit from misinformation on Misplaced Pages. This issue is not limited to User:Havenx23 and has been discussed on other articles as well. Argento Surfer (talk) 20:33, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

The user's response to the ANI notification includes a personal attack. Argento Surfer (talk) 12:23, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

• User has not edited for 4 days, d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 22:26, 29 April 2017 (UTC).

Pattern of making controversial title changes without RM or discussion by user In ictu oculi

In ictu oculi holds views that often differ from mine about article titles, which is no crime, of course, except he regularly engages in unilateral page moves, without discussion, that are in accordance with his eccentric views, but are often contrary to consensus view, or are at least clearly controversial. WP:RM is quite clear about potentially controversial title changes - they should be avoided, and requests at RM should be initiated instead. Anyway, IIO has been warned in the past, and I warned him yesterday, and he made some more moves today, so I'm asking for assistance. This has been an ongoing problem for the better part of a decade.

A couple of recent examples:

• Yesterday, he moved To the Max! to To the Max! (Max Roach album) . (I reverted and asked him to stop on his talk page)
• Today, he moved Bombay Mail to Bombay Mail (1934 film) . (I reverted this undiscussed controversial move adding unnecessary disambiguation to a title .)

Warnings/discussions:

• By PaleCloudedWhite PBS, in an ANI notice, in August of 2012 .
• By Tbhotch, in another ANI, in 2014 .
• By me, on IIO's talk page, in October of 2016:
• By me, on IIO's talk page, yesterday

IIO and I often clash on title decisions so I'm not the most objective judge, so I ask others to confirm there is an issue here. I'm hopeful a serious warning coming from someone other than me should resolve this chronic problem for good. --?²C ? 01:02, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

He probably moved To the Max! to To the Max! (Max Roach album) because there are two other entities named To the Max. These lack the wow sign. But except for the punctuation (which is not pronounced) they are identical. It is reasonable to say "These are enough alike to constitute essentially the same title". It's a judgment call whether to ask for a Requested Move in a case like this. But a Requested Move means asking your colleagues to drop what they are doing and consider your question. You don't want to do it if you figure it's probably just a technical fix. So I can see someone going ahead and doing it, subject to a Requested Move discussion if someone objects. In ictu oculi moves a lot of pages, so some of these are going to be disputed.

On the other hand, moving Bombay Mail to Bombay Mail (1934 film), are you sure he didn't do this to make room for an article on the actual Bombay Mail train or something? (Even if he did, he needs to say so in his move summaries). If not, this would be highly idiosyncratic and I'd be interested to hear about that. If there's a pattern of this kind of move (and not making way for a new article) then that's not good. Herostratus (talk) 01:29, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Herostratus, both situations mentioned by B2C are covered by WP:DIFFCAPS, a subsection of WP:AT IIO knows exists, and IIO knows a related-move can be seen as contentious. Although both titles are ambiguous, having To the Max! redirecting to To the Max! (Max Roach album), because there is no other "To the Max!" (in place of simply having a {{other uses}} or an {{About}}); and not creating an article about Bombay Mail train/office and preemptively moving it to "(1934 film)" when there is no other film with the same name are common problems with IIO. Bombay Mail (train) (recent redirect) just redirects to Howrah–Allahabad–Mumbai line where it is only mentioned as "he Mumbai-Howrah Mail via Allahabad is called Calcutta Mail between Mumbai and Allahabad, and Mumbai Mail (some still call it by its old name, Bombay Mail)". Other examples exist, they can be found on the public log, like Haco or Mercedes (film), Dt., or Nueva Era (this is just a redirection problem, but he never attempted to fix it), when enough time has past to have written an article to make disambiguation valid, but they solely are redirects to the article they were originally titled, or back in September when he moved Sivi Kingdom to Sivi (king), unexplained, despite the fact the article discusses more the kingdom than the homonym king, also note that he decided to move it to "Sivi (king)" and not to "King Sivi", "Sivi King" or "Kingdom of Sivi", which are more natural terms. The reason for a move I guess was to justify the move of Sivi to Sivi (film), but in itself you don't need to move A to justify B. And this is just for moving articles, there is another problem with IIO edit pattern and it is the notability of certain articles he creates. At WT:Notability, my talk page and WT:CDS are examples of what I'm talking about, but these aren't all the examples. Unfortunately I don't have all of them, but it is a start. © Tbhotch (en-2.5). 03:10, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

I'm among editors who disagree with B2C's views on titling, as he says above. B2C's view against disambiguation and recognizability tend to be outliers, as his activity on guideline Talk pages shows.

Occasionally we all get something wrong, and if there's a discussion or objection I listen and then that's easily resolved. I do a lot of work on disambiguation, and occasionally someone objects. Looking at the last ten:

1. Wild Boy to Wild Boy (film) ([Wild Boy to Wild Boy (film) summary (https://tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&start=2017-03-12&end=2017-04-20&pages=Wild_Boy_(song)%7CWild_Boy%7CWild_Boy_(novel))

Wild Boy 1934 film was getting 4 out of 72 views. A dab page was needed, can anyone see any problem with creation of a dab page here?

2. Intrigue (film) to Intrigue (1947 film) summary (Intrigue (1942 film)

There's also Intrigue (1942 film), per Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (films). Template:Edwin L. Marin updated, requires several hours for "what links here" to settle to allow other links to become visible.

3. Bombay Mail to Bombay Mail (1934 film) summary (Bombay Mail (1935 film))

As the summary says there is another film, WP:NCF, but there's also Bombay Mail (train), again Template:Edwin L. Marin updated, requires several hours for "what links here" to settle to allow other links to become visible.

4. The Scandal to The Scandal (1923 film) summary (The Scandal (1934 film) The Scandal (1943 film))

per Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (films) again

5. The Mirage (film) to The Mirage (1920 film) see The Mirage (2015 film), a Canadian comedy-drama film

per Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (films) again

6. Sybil (book) to Sybil (Schreiber book) (Sybil (novel))

The Disraeli "novel" is also a "book" Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (books)

7. The Mirage (Al-Sarab) to The Mirage (Al-Suwaidi book)

Per author name not Arabic word for "The Mirage", Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (books)

8. Metahistory to Metahistory (Hayden White) (the term was in use decades before the book)

The problem here were mislinks to 1973 book from the adjective metahistorical and generic term metahistory. The 1973 book Metahistory: The Historical Imagination in Nineteenth-century Europe is an important book, but a book about metahistory, not the subject itself.

9. Haunted London (1973) to Haunted London (Underwood book)

We don't disambiguate by year Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (books)

10. To the Max! to Talk:To the Max! (Max Roach album) (not always found with !)

As already reverted and not contested. The context not mentioned above is that this was a third album after To the Max to To the Max (Con Funk Shun album) and To the Max (album) to To the Max (The Mentors album). These were clearly mistitled per WP:NCM. The ! isn't found in some sources per Drummin' Men: The Heartbeat of Jazz The Bebop Years by Burt Koral, but whatever that was an afterthought, the main job was fixing the partial disambiguation of two (or three) albums.

We could go on to review the last 100 moves related to disambiguation or dab pages I have created or expanded. No need to stop at the last 10, but is the work of correcting incomplete titles contrary to naming conventions per se a bad thing? If it is tell me and I'll cease contributing to disambiguation pages. More than happy to do so if this work is not wanted by the editing community. I don't get paid, any more than the rest of you girls and guys. If it's not useful tell me. I'll go. In ictu oculi (talk) 06:16, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

The thing here we can all agree is that if not about how useful or useless is your editing, it is about how you are doing your editing. With B2C's, this is the 5th or 6th user that has a complain about your editing pattern, how many users do you need to stop for a moment and ask to yourself "Am I doing this right?" Let's take Bombay Mail as the example here:

You create Bombay Mail (1935 film), you move Bombay Mail (1934 film), and you created Bombay Mail (train). All OK but you missed one thing, which was the reason B2C could revert the move: you didn't create a disambiguation page. At least you now create an article to rely the disambiguation, months ago you used to move pages only because a similarly titled work existed and no single article was created. In this example, B2C moved the page back 3 hours later. Also, I'm quite sure you would have never created a disambiguation page and the base title would have been a redirect until someone else noticed it, like when this took 2 months, or this 9 months, or when you moved Haco, and it still redirecting to its previous article, or dozens of similar examples that you have not fixed, but instead of fixing them, you move to another article to continue doing the same. Or even worse, doing moves like this or this with no single reason given. © Tbhotch (en-2.5). 16:54, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

@Tbhotch: I can confirm that I have run across instances where IIO has moved a page to a title with a disambiguator, but in the process, doesn't create a disambiguation page. However, this wasn't always the case: The lack of creating disambiguation pages may be a recently-developing issue. I recall a few years ago, IIO moved quite a few song or album related pages from base titles to tiles with disambiguators and then created disambiguation pages at the leftover redirect's base title. However, such disambiguation pages were created before the consensus was established declaring that if an article about a song or album is the only article by that name that exists on Misplaced Pages, then it should be at the base title. (I can't recall where that guideline is at the moment, but I am sure you know what in referring to since I think we've crossed each other's paths regarding this in the past.) Steel1943 (talk) 17:22, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict, responding to the original complaint and User:Tbhotch) -- I am confused. IIO did construct another meaning for "Bombay Mail" -- "Bombay Mail (train)". It is just a redirect, true, but so? He had to move the article to make room for the redirect.

The original complaint implied that IIO moved "Bombay Mail" to a title with meaningless, unnecessary disambiguation. Here I was all "Whaaat? What's wrong with IIO, to do something like that?"

But that's not the deal at all. So can we get our facts straight please.

So now that complaint seems to come down to "IIO created a redirect, and I wish he hadn't". I mean, I guess you could take it to Redirects for Discussion, and maybe that's where that discussion should happen rather than here.

And there are two films named "Bombay Mail", one made in 1934 and one in 1935. Right? That is what IMDb says. So is it really so terrible to name your article "Bombay Mail (1934 film)" instead of "Bombay Mail (film)", considering that there is another film of that name with which a reader might get confused? True, it's not precisely correct (Unless IIO is planning to create an article on the other film) and that does matter.

As to "there is another problem with IIO edit pattern and it is the notability of certain articles he creates"... isn't this getting a little bit scattershot here? Can we stick to one thing maybe.

So what is the desired end here? "IIO must initiate a Requested Move discussion for any and all moves"? And maybe that would be fine and is necessary. The claim is that there's a general pattern of misfeasance. I don't see it in those two tiny examples, but if there's a pattern it ought to come out with a little investigation. Can we get some actual examples of actual specific wrongdoing? This would help. Herostratus (talk) 06:53, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Why sticking to one thing at the time? Sticking to one problem at the time is the reason why this edit pattern has not been revised, checked or even penalized through either ANI or even his ArbCom discussion, and how he has been being WP:GAMING since circa 2012. I literally gave you a link of how he in 2013 was trying to WP:POINT the speedy deletion criteria, something he still doing, yet I'm being a "little bit scattershot". Like you want me to open below a subsection of how he has been creating BLP WP:A7 articles before and after that CSD discussion, because I can do that. Or maybe you do not want me to do it because apparently we humans cannot focus in more than one problem at the same time. © Tbhotch (en-2.5). 14:59, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

• Herostratus, the problem is not with IIO creating another meaning for "Bombay Mail" (a redirect named Bombay Mail (train) that redirects to Howrah–Allahabad–Mumbai line), but with him unilaterally (without discussion or RM) moving the article previously at Bombay Mail to Bombay Mail (1934 film) (it has since been reverted). The list above is just a list of a couple of recent examples. It was not mean to be exhaustive, but he does this stuff all the time. IIO shows little respect for the need to let others weigh in on these decisions; he does not recognize that his opinion on these matters is often contrary to that of the community. --?²C ? 16:30, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Note: Born2cycle's opening comment could give the impression that I have opened a thread about In ictu oculi at ANI before, in 2012, but this is not the case; instead my original comment was being quoted by another editor there. If you look at IIO's response to what I originally wrote, it's apparent that there wasn't really a dispute. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 07:07, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

My apologies. I did not realize you were being quoted there. I've stricken the reference to you and corrected it. --B²C ? 16:10, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

• I'm also worried about In ictu oculi often renaming pages when unwarranted, and also disregarding WP:PRIMARYTOPIC as Born2cycle noted below. Extra DAB's in certain cases simply don't help at all and very needlessly go against WP:CONCISE. It might be a case of WP:IDHT in certain instances. Snuggums (talk / edits) 14:32, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Let's look at one case, and extrapolate from there

OK. The case of "Haco" is mentioned above. Let's leave "Bombay Mail" out of it because it's recent and articles are just now being created, so it's muddied; let's look at "Haco" instead.

It's just one case, but the assertion is made that this is typical. So let's start there anyway.

OK, the article Haco existed, being created 2006. It is about a singer.

On March 10 2017, In ictu oculi [created the redirect Haco (king). It redirects to Haki, and indeed that article gives "Haco" as an alternative name for that king, and has for many years. So OK so far.

One minute later on March 10 2017, In ictu oculi moved "Haco" to "Haco (singer)", which automatically left "Haco" as a redirect to "Haco (singer)". OK so far.

In ictu oculi now had a choice to make. He could rewrite Haco as a disambiguation page, pointing to the article Haco (singer) and the redirect Haco (king), and possibly adding in Haco V (a redirect to Haakon V of Norway which has existed since 2005) and so forth, and possibly with a "See also" section mentioning Hako (disambiguation) and so forth.

Or he could have figured that Haco (king) is the primary topic, and rewritten Haco to redirect there. Or he could have figured that Haco (singer) is the primary topic, in which case he should have not moved Haco (or moved it back if, after consideration, he concluded that the singer is the primary topic). In either case, if In ictu oculi thought that there was a primary topic, then the primary topic -- either the article about the singer, or the redirect to the king -- should have been named "Haco", and so his series of moves and article namings should have been different.

But in any case, In ictu oculi -- if he wasn't going to create a disambiguation page -- should have added a hatnote to Haco (singer). This he did not do, as can be shown by this history. This was an error of omission.

(In ictu oculi did edit the (already existing) hatnote at Haki (which is now the target of Haki (king)), but only to change it from "for the village in Iran see Haki, Iran" to "This article is about King Hake. For the village in Iran, see Haki, Iran. For railway station in Japan, see Haki Station." (So no mention of "Haco (king)" which is OK, since "Haco (king)" does not redirect to "Haki"; if it did, a "Haco (king) redirects here..." note might have been in order. So this edit it OK, it neither breaks nor fixes anything, its just something In ictu oculi did while he was in the area I assume.))

(This shows that seven pages link to Haco, which is a redirect page, while according to this only one non-redirect page targets Haco (singer). So the assumption is that link cleanup was not done. So this is likely another error of omission. It's not a capital crime, I have forgotten to do this myself on (rare) occasion and I think maybe bots clean this up (not sure). But still.)

All this strikes me as rather odd. With no disambiguation page and no hatnote at Haco (singer), there isn't any way for a reader to access Haco (king) (and thereby Haki, if they know him as Haco). Yes sure she can type "Haco king" in the search box, but that's unnatural; more likely would be "king haco" or "haco of norway" or perhaps "haco mythology" or "haco norse" or "haco ynglinga" -- none of which will lead to reader the desired goal, Haki. (Haco (king) has no incoming links.)

So this looks like a sub-optimal job. I don't see the gain. Neither is it terrible -- the ability of readers to get to where the want to is neither lessened nor increased, nor has any data been added or lost. It's a wash, but it did end with Haco now being at Haco (singer) when this isn't strictly necessary -- it follows from the decision to make no dab page and no hatnote at Haco (singer) that there was no reason to move Haco to Haco (singer) if nothing was going to be done with Haco (king). Haco (king), floating in limbo as it does, does not impinge on Haco continuing to be an article about the singer instead of a redirect to the article about the singer.

You have to understand that unnecessary disambiguation drives people bonkers, and it is against our rules. I couldn't care much less, but for Haco (singer) to exist at that title when it could remain at just Haco makes some people claw the draperies -- and they do have the rules and accepted practice on their side, without question. Since they do, asking the admin corps for backup is reasonable IMO.

No move was made wrongly, nor was there a case where a Requested Move should have been initiated instead of just moving stuff. Rather, the problem is that the moves were fine, but failing to make dab, or even a hatnote, afterwards is not OK. (Also link cleanup was not done apparently). This is not exactly just a content dispute, but a failure to follow optimal procedure.

Coming into this analysis with no preconception, I do see where at least in this one case its problematical. As I said above, the assertion is this case is typical normal for In ictu oculi, and he doesn't care to follow optimal procedure, and some sort of warning or injunction about this is requested.

So In ictu oculi, what's the deal here? Did I miss something, or what? Or was this case exceptional? Herostratus (talk) 20:25, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Good analysis and I hope you can now appreciate how time consuming this is. If you take almost any one of IIO's unilateral moves like this one in isolation it appears to be contrary to policy but not that serious; it's the pattern of doing this repeatedly that's the issue. You also hit upon a key point: "You have to understand that unnecessary disambiguation drives people bonkers, and it is against our rules." IIO demonstrates no respect for this community consensus viewpoint and others too (e.g., he seems to barely recognize WP:PRIMARYTOPIC). Consistently and repeatedly. This is why I think he should stop making these moves. His judgement is off relative to community consensus. He can argue my judgement is off too on these matters, in the other direction. And I concede it might be - but that's why I tend to not make unilateral moves. He should too. --В²C ☎ 21:43, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

I reverted the move of Haco to Haco (singer) . --В²C ☎ 22:31, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

But look at Bombay Mail closer because it's a good example

• Bombay Mail is a 1934 American film. The article has existed since 2016 when it was created by Koala15.
• On April 26, 2017 at 13:56 In ictu oculi unilaterally moved it to Bombay Mail (1934 film) (I've since reverted this move).
• On April 26, 2017 at 13:51 In ictu oculi created Bombay Mail (1935 film), a Hindi language film.

Now, here's the point. These are both relatively obscure films, but between them, on the English WP, the American film is likely to be a bonafide WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Likely enough that no one should unilaterally decide it's not. But IIO did, and moved the article accordingly. Again, taken in isolation it's not a horrible crime, but he does this stuff all the time, and needs to stop. --В²C ☎ 23:39, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

I dunno; reading that, my first thought was "train, ship, plane, or service?"...and it turns out it's all four. This was, and is, with a couple of m/b shifts, a ship route, the eponymous cargo, the train and a possibly even flying boat route. I expect, seriously, that the post service is far more important historically than either film. Disambguating them out seems a good call. Anmccaff (talk) 00:13, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Except he left Bombay Mail as a WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT to Bombay Mail (1934 film), implying it is the primary topic. Well, if it is, then it shouldn't be disambiguated. But there are good arguments to made, as you did, that maybe there is no primary topic. That's the point; the issue of whether it is the primary topic is obviously potentially controversial, and precisely what needs to be determined, and that's why we have WP:RM, to make these determinations. It should not be determined unilaterally. You can't just look at each of these in isolation to see the pattern. --В²C ☎ 00:37, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Closer look at A True Woman

Tbhotch linked to this this above; let's take a closer look.

• 2007: Created as A True Woman
• April 29, 2016: inexplicably moved by In ictu oculi to The Heart of a Woman (Baroness Orczy novel) . No explanation in summary. Nothing on talk page.
• April 3, 2017: reverted by Tbhotch with summary: "Unexplained move"

Is the relatively obscure book better known by its American title The Heart of a Woman, then by it's British title, A True Woman? Perhaps, but since the former requires disambiguation (conflict with Maya Angela book with same title), why not leave it at the latter? Well, if you prefer "more informative" titles, as IIO does, then the move makes sense. For him. So does making the move when you know if you put it up to an RM it's likely to get rejected, but if you do it unilaterally it might not get noticed (as it did not in this case for almost a year). I don't want to speculate about IIO's true motives, which even he might not be fully aware of, but the bottom line is that this is not a slam dunk rename. It's obviously potentially controversial, and IIO should know this, and know better than to make such moves. --В²C ☎ 00:37, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

I'd have expected there was a guideline for this, that might be modified in occasional cases -MBE (as opposed to my own favorite, MBP). I'd also expect that a book by a prominent, if adopted, British author would go by the title published by in London, rather than New York. I think someone would have to make the case pretty strongly for it to be otherwise.

On the other hand "might not get noticed" does cut both ways, it implies that this is a bit of a coin-toss. Anmccaff (talk) 01:56, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Anmccaff, it "might not get noticed" because it's an obscure article with few if any watchers. And even if it is a coin-toss, that means it can go either way, indicating it is potentially controversial. Precisely the kind of decision that should go to RM - not made unilaterally by one editor, let alone by one with a reputation for often having opinions contrary to community consensus on such matters. --В²C ☎ 17:54, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Closer look at Sivi

Tbhotch also linked to this above.

• 22:09, March 8, 2006‎: Sivi Kingdom created by Jijithnr
• Sep 20, 2016, Sivi Kingdom inexplicably moved by In ictu oculi to Sivi (king)

No corresponding adjustments seem to have been made either. For example, the Sivi dab page still links to Sivi Kingdom (not to Sivi (king)). But wait, the plot thickens.

• 2007 LRBurdak creates article about the film as Sivi.
• Sep 20, 2016 Sivi inexplicably moved to Sivi (film) by In ictu oculi (well, we can divine that he did it to make room for a dab page)
• Sep 20, 2016, now that Sivi is a redirect to Sivi (film), IIO converts the Sivi redirect to a dab page with three entries: Sivi Kingdom, Sivi (film), and a link to SIVI.

Now, if we look at the relevant page view stats it's obvious that a strong argument can be made that the film (now at Sivi (film)) is the primary topic and should have remained at the base name, Sivi.

Again, all this is for the community to decide, in a proper WP:RM. It's not for IIO or anyone else to make these decisions unilaterally. It's about the pattern. He needs to be told to stop. --В²C ☎ 01:14, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Move to WP:AN?

Born2cycle, the thread is going to be archived very soon. This message that I'm writing would stall the archiving of this thread. May I move the thread to WP:AN please for bigger attention? George Ho (talk) 17:29, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

No George Ho, you may not move the thread to AN. This is the correct venue; AN isn't. In addition, AN gets less attention than ANI. Softlavender (talk) 13:07, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

• Thanks George Ho, but I think this is the right place. Not sure what to do here. We could provide (many) more examples of the disruptive behavior, but I don't know if that will help. --В²C ☎ 18:29, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Hmm... titles are getting messier. Discussion about titling the Fabergé eggs, which doesn't involve IIO, led to using parentheses for precision (via parenthetical disambiguation?). Also, after the discussion about notability and ambiguity at the "Notability" talk page, I see IIO expanding some articles, including ones that he started: . Conflicting principles are... weirder or entangled or something? But actions based on such principles... I think there's enough evidence of his renaming things. As said before, I don't want to get too involved in IIO's contributions, especially after the Faberge egg discussion. However, I see the proposal below, but I'll hold off until I'm ready to comment there. --George Ho (talk) 18:46, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Informal Collaborator

I just found a note on In ictu oculi's talk page asking him about his unexplained/undiscussed move of Informal collaborator to Informal collaborator (East Germany) . Typical. I reverted it. . --В²C ☎ 05:12, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

In fact when you check the history of the article you will realize that that this was a revert to the longstanding title of the article which was only recently changed. WP:BRD covers this case. The next revert (yours) goes into editwaring territory. The change to Informal collaborator should have been subject to a WP:RM. Agathoclea (talk) 07:35, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Proposal: ban In ictu oculi from moving articles without going through RM

Proposal: Per the above discussions In ictu oculi doesn't recognize or ignores when article moves are potentially controversial and does it often enough for it to be disruptive. In addition, he tends to create unnecessary and trivial dab pages. I hereby propose an indefinite ban on In ictu oculi from moving articles (changing titles) without going through the process at WP:RM.

• Support as nom. I don't think anything else will stop him from continuing to engage in the disruptive behavior which he has done for years. --В²C ☎ 18:40, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
• Support Too many controversial moves without discussion, concerns have been raised on his talk page for years and no changes. Ribbet32 (talk) 00:21, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
• Support, having undone some of his controversial/"what the?" moves (most were months ago) myself. Ss112 04:15, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
• Support, largely. Must use WP:RM (including Misplaced Pages:Requested_moves#Requesting_technical_moves), unless:
  (1) The page is under 100 days old and he is the sole non-minor author.
  (2) The page is in his userspace.
  --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:26, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Yeah, that's reasonable. That would mean he can still create dab pages too, with the (disambiguation) parenthetical. He just can't disambiguate the title of the article at the base name to make room for the dab page at the base name without an RM discussion to establish a lack of primary topic. --В²C ☎ 05:04, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose Bold moves of low-traffic pages has long been considered perfectly acceptable, and this seems to be the case with eivirtually all, if not all, the examples listed above. No page move is controversial until someone opposes it, so the moves in question would only be controversial if IIO was edit-warring over them, or was moving them against the consensus of a previous RM. I know from personal experience that IIO has more respect for discussion and consensus on these matters, and if anytging is overly careful when it comes to following the proper process. I seem to recall an incident from four years ago when I BOLDly moved a page, and a sockpuppet of the banned user JoshuSasori RMed the page back (because IPs and new accounts can't unilaterally undo page moves), and IIO, despite himself, actually supported the RM on procedural grounds, even hough he agreed with my unilateral move on the substance and knew that the OP was a sock. Forgive me if I'm misremembering; I'll find the exact diff if anyone needs it. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 08:44, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
  • I find the recent behaviour of IIO unexpected and out of character. It is as if he has tired of discussions and is no longer reading them. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:59, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Yes Template:Ping:SmokeyJoe I've dropped in to read them, but what can I do. It's the same couple of editors following me to pages they have no interest or involvement in and hunting for something to offend among 1,000s of edits. I can't win. If I wait for the templates to readjust and leave a decent period for someone following me to revert then I'm guilty of having not yet made the dab page, if I make the dab page I'm guilty of making the dab page. You can see from B2C's edit history that a substantial proportion of his limited contributions to article space are following my work. With the system being that repeated bites of the cherry will eventually "get" someone, what would you have me do, defend and justify in detail the last 1% of my dab work. Yes I'm tired, but more tired of having B2C's shadow. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:49, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose. A page move is easily reverted if not needed, while every time I participate in a RM I feel like wasting time. Let's not create more RM. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:06, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Fewer page moves, I would prefer. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:10, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Truite? Ou boomerang?

I'm sorry, but the more commentary by B2C I read here and on IIO's talk page, the more I think he/she seriously needs to be taught the importance of WP:CIVIL. I find it incredible that someone who routinely engages in this kind of sniping rhetoric could have been editing for twelve years without a single block. Did this just happen recently? Understanding/misunderstanding policy is one thing, but civility should be a given, and in fact is by far the most important policy on Misplaced Pages (for good or ill). Everyone gets frustrated/angry from time to time, but I don't see anything IIO did that could explain this. @Born2cycle: do you understand why this kind of comment is inappropriate? Do you regret it? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:17, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Unacceptable behaviour at Template:Infobox royalty/doc

DrKay (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) has engaged in a slow, but steady edit-war to impose his version of the documentation at Template:Infobox royalty/doc. Since 15 April he has made essentially the same changes 8 times despite three other editors disagreeing with him. These are the edits, along with his edit summaries:

1. This parameter is deprecated per Misplaced Pages:Village pump (policy)#RfC: Religion in biographical infoboxes.
2. deprecated per RfC, which concluded it should only be used for religious figures. Royalty are not religious figures.
3. This is the consensus at this page. If you think consensus has changed, go to the talk page.
4. you have performed three reverts in 24 hours, you may not do so again
5. This is the consensus at this page. If you think consensus has changed, go to the talk page.
6. I see no change in consensus on the talk page
7. I'm not lying.
8. as agreed on talk

Note the mistaken and misleading edit summaries:

• The Rfc he was referring to, Misplaced Pages:Village pump (policy)#RfC: Religion in biographical infoboxes was closed by Iridescent who has confirmed that the religion parameter was deprecated only in {{Infobox person}}. Other biographical infoboxes may need the religion parameter (e.g. {{Infobox clergy}}, so each infobox needs to make its own determination.
• There is no existing consensus to deprecate religion from {{infobox royalty}} where the edit-war is occurring, as can quickly be ascertained from the talk history.
• There is no agreement to his changes at Template talk:Infobox royalty.

Having commented at the talk page and requested an end to the edit-war, I visited DrKay's talk page to see if anyone had already raised the issue with him. I was dismayed to see from the history that he had removed the thread with the edit summary Fuck off, Andy. DrKay has edited Misplaced Pages for over 10 years and is an administrator. That sort of response to valid criticism is completely unacceptable and indicates to me that DrKay has become too invested in his original mistake to be able to rationally back away from it. I'm therefore requesting that he voluntarily acknowledges that that his behaviour is sub-standard, and that he understands that edit-warring – even without breaching the 3RR bright-line – is not a valid means of reaching consensus. In the absence of such assurances, I request that administrative action is taken to prevent him edit-warring further at Template:Infobox royalty/doc. --RexxS (talk) 10:23, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

• Having looked at the edit history at Template:Infobox royalty/doc, I am very disturbed to see DrKay has been edit warring against multiple other editors and has been doing so since 4 April (and accusing others of 3RR breaches in the process while ignoring their own sub-3RR warring). Had I seen the current spate of reverts while it was still active, I would certainly have issued a block. This, accompanied by the uncivil rebuffing of attempts to discuss the matter, is lamentable behaviour from an admin. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:13, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
  • Apologies – I should have included a convenience link to the edit history of that page. Here are the last 50 edits up to today. --RexxS (talk) 13:52, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
• Per my comments here my closure of the original RFC explicitly only applies to {{infobox person}}. The question being asked there was Proposal: Should we remove from {{Infobox person}} the |religion= parameter (and the associated |denomination= one)?, for which there was an overwhelming and policy-backed consensus, but it's clear that only this specific infobox was under discussion, not all biographical infoboxes in general.

  There may well be consensus to remove the religion parameter from all infoboxes and rely on custom text in those instances where the field genuinely needs to be included, but that's not what was up for discussion and to the best of my knowledge has never been formally discussed. Because the topic of infoboxes tends to attract some very obsessive people on both sides of any debate, in my opinion any significant change to practice does require a formal RFC with a formal closure. There's long been a tendency for people to try to bludgeon changes through by bullying the other participants out of discussions, so Misplaced Pages's usual discuss-until-a-consensus-is-reached approach often fails to function properly in this context. ‑ Iridescent 14:47, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

I'm not trying to "impose my version". I have no strong opinion on the parameter per se. I am merely an administrator trying to implement community consensus. Only in death, the main interlocutor, supports removal of the parameter so I am confused by his actions at the template documentation page, and as he has never posted to talk I am still not clear. When I posted to talk it was only to clarify widespread community consensus that whether to use a parameter is decided on a case-by-case basis at each individual article, to which two editors agreed readily (and no-one has opposed). So, again I am baffled by the extreme responses to what should be uncontroversial re-statement of existing norms. I told Andy to fuck off because he was attempting to stoke the embers of Only in death's harassment, which were long since cold. DrKay (talk) 15:37, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

DrKay, I am extremely close to indefblocking you on WP:CIR grounds here. Since you seem to have missed it despite it being pointed out directly above and explained in detail, Only in death, the main interlocutor, supports removal of the parameter is an outright lie; OID was writing in support of removal of the parameter from {{infobox person}} explicitly. If you want an RFC to remove the parameter from {{infobox royalty}}, by all means start one, but don't edit-war to enforce the outcome of a RFC which never took place except in your own head. ‑ Iridescent 15:48, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

DrKay, here's a question I'd really like to ask you at your reconfirmation RfA (because I think you seriously need one), but I'll make do with here for now. If multiple people disagree with your interpretation of consensus and revert you, what are you supposed to do?

a) Edit war

b) Discuss

c) Something else

Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:53, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

@Iridescent: CIR is an essay. "Only in death, the main interlocutor, supports removal of the parameter" can be easily re-drafted as "Only in death, the main interlocutor, supported removal of the generic parameter"; there is no intention to deceive. Nor was there ever. Your accusation of lying is just another bad faith assumption tantamount to harassment. I'm not starting an RfC because I hold no strong opinion on the matter of whether the parameter is retained or removed.

@Boing: There is no edit-war. It's over. DrKay (talk) 16:04, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

It might be over now, but I'm trying to ascertain your understanding of relevant Misplaced Pages policy and assess your fitness as an admin. So can you please explain what went wrong and how it should have been handled? Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:11, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Since there is no misuse of the tools, removing them will be of no benefit to the project.

I regret saying fuck off, which is out of character, and came about largely because of private events off-wiki involving the ill-health of a third person.

I have read and understood the comments here and at the template talk page. I will continue to follow the consensus of the community and work collaboratively with others, as I have done on many occasions in the past. DrKay (talk) 16:24, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

So you will not answer my request for you to explain what went wrong in this instance and how it should have been handled? (And I don't mean just the "fuck off"). Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:33, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

There sure is a LOT of this type of WP:CIR from administrators these days... Is it at all possible to get a review system going already? --Tarage (talk) 23:47, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

• It's still going on, see the edit summary here, which seems like a personal attack (never mind a complete inability to comprehend reality) - "remove harassment from disruptive editors who find themselves in the minority against a longstanding community decision, and so are attempting to subvert it". Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 07:27, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Block them. --Tarage (talk) 09:35, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

• Surprised no one pinged me on this. Not that anyone wants my opinion but as background - religion is rightly irrelevant for the vast majority of people covered by infobox persons. For royalty it can be a lot more important (despite not being the reason for their notability) as anyone with even a passing familiarity with world history can see. So this started when I reverted the incorrect removal of the parameter from Royalty which had been done by DrKay under (assuming good faith at that point) a misapprehension that the infobox_person applied to all biographical infoboxs. Given the closer has repeatedly explained no it doesnt, and having informed DrKay of this, he kept removing it citing what he knows to be an 'untruth'. I find no benefit in using soft wording in this case with someone who is both experienced enough and intelligent enough to know better. You can be mistaken once or twice (or longer) if no one has explained things to you. After someone has explained something to you in clear English, its no longer a mistake. I removed the royalty infobox from my watchlist after my last revert due to the clear intractability of DrKay (which is why I suspect I missed the ongoing kerfuffle). I am generally not interested in arguing with someone who persists in being wrong. -ninja edit- Just noticed the above 'harrassment' editsum was related to me informing him why he was wrong. I know wikipedia likes to redefine harrassment in strange new ways but that one is laughable. Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:02, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

• @Only in death, a couple of paragraphs above he accuses me of "harassment" for pointing out that his claims that you supported the removal of the religion parameter were untrue. I wouldn't take it personally, this is fairly obviously just general lashing out at anyone in range rather than specifically directed at you. ‑ Iridescent 16:44, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

• This is completely unacceptable behaviour from an experienced editor, let alone an administrator. At the very least I think we need to be looking at a topic ban of some sort (perhaps from making changes to infoboxes?) but possibly even more than that. Certainly if they continue doing this or make any more personal attacks while this thread is active I don't think we should be overly hesitant to block. Thryduulf (talk) 12:11, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
• Comment People like RexxS and {U|Boing! said Zebedee|Boing!}} don't raise concerns about an admin's behaviour (or anyone else's for that matter) without very good reason. Looking at the situation, I must concur. I think perhaps a voluntary re-confiration RfA could be the answer, failing which, an Arbcom case would appear to be the only way to go, even if all it did were to issue a formal adminoshment. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 20:42, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

I edit-warred. I was rude. I was admonished at a minimum of three separate locations. Who exactly is being disruptive now? Me or the editors demanding a fourth venue? DrKay (talk) 21:12, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

"I edit-warred. I was rude. I was admonished..." And you consider this acceptable behavior for an admin? A dysfunctional admin is, pretty much by definition, more disruptive than a similarly disruptive rank-and-file editor. It's possible, although not at all certain, that a rank-and-file editor who edit-warred and was rude might be formally sanctioned rather than simply being "admonished", and might well need to issue apologies and assurances for good future behavior to forestall such sanctions, or have them removed. Yet you seem not to be apologetic, not to really care if people are worried about your future behavior, and to brush off your mere admonishment as simply your due. You appear to think that an admin is a "super-user" of some kind, a notion that some folks here wish to disabuse you of, and you have essentially ignored them. Do you not perceive the problem here? Can you not see that long-time established editors of sound reputation and good sense are very concerned about your behavior?I do not think you can brush this off, I think you must deal with the idea that your integrity and competence as an admin is under serious question from serious people. Please do not minimize this, or disrespectfully characterize it again as "disruption". You have a problem, do not assume it's going to go away by ignoring it -- instead, please attend to it. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:54, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

I expressed regret and issued assurances of future behavior above. Your claims that I don't care and think I'm a 'super-user' are not only unjust and unwarranted, they are a distortion of reality that, to borrow a phrase from Iridescent, only exists in your own head.

This thread is no longer designed to get an apology or assurances of good behavior, because that has already been achieved. Its continuation has some other goal -- one which I have no intention of gratifying. So, if you want that other goal, you will need to go to a fourth venue. DrKay (talk) 07:07, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

And with that reply, basically stating "I'm right, you're wrong, I don't have to stop if I don't want to." I think we're left with no choice but the arbitration committee, unfortunately. Thryduulf (talk) 09:45, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

That is a misrepresentation of my reply. DrKay (talk) 09:58, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

@DrKay: There is a lot that disturbs me about these latest responses from you. Firstly you say "I expressed regret", but the only instance I can see on this page is this very claim that you expressed regret - if I have missed one, please do point it out to me. (And even then, "regret" is largely meaningless - I have seen nothing remotely like "I was wrong".) (Update: I see from below that the only thing you apparently regret is saying "fuck off". Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:50, 30 April 2017 (UTC))

Finally, here, you did say "I edit-warred. I was rude", but that didn't come until 3 days after this report was made - during which time you kept insisting you were right until the weight of opinion against you (with not one single person supporting you) became unarguable, and you kept attacking and insulting those in dispute with you. And your admission came only after Kudpung added his opinion that you should run for reconfirmation or be taken to an Arbcom case.

You singularly failed to answer my question about what you did wrong and how you should have dealt with it, deflecting it with a non-answer about how you will "continue to follow the consensus of the community and work collaboratively with others". And you added a further attack with your edit summary "remove harassment from disruptive editors who find themselves in the minority against a longstanding community decision, and so are attempting to subvert it" when blanking a perfectly good faith discussion of your actions on your talk page (I gave the link, above).

As you noted yourself somewhere, you have had four blocks since becoming an admin for edit warring. Granted the last one was in 2013 and I would normally consider that too old for consideration now - but your latest edit warring was blatant.

What I'm seeing here is an insistence that you were right all along coupled with a dismissive and insulting approach to those who question you, some grudging pseudo-contrition now that it appears you might not have got away with it after all, and no real attempt to address these genuine concerns from your fellow Wikipedians about your approach in practice to collaborative editing. If you were not an admin and were to run for it now I think you would get an overwhelming "Oppose", and for that reason I would support an ArbCom report if you do not choose to run for a reconfirmation RfA. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:20, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

"I regret..." (3 days ago, 2 days before the "I edit-warred" post)

I will not run for a reconfirmation RfA. I don't agree with them, and never have. DrKay (talk) 10:52, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

That "regret" is only "I regret saying fuck off", which was then and is still now nowhere near sufficient. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:25, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Yes, it is entirely insufficient. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:29, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

I and others edit-warred: .

I and others were rude: 'lying''lies''outright lie''untruth'; three euphemistic accusations of lying at my talk page in quick succession:.

I and the others were wrong, which I have admitted days ago: . There has been no regret or admission of fault from the others.

There is no misuse of the tools. An arbitration request is an over-reaction to a localized concluded dispute on a trivial point (the parameter was always optional, and remains so). DrKay (talk) 06:31, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

It appears I need to remind you again, the *only* admission of any wrongdoing in that "days ago" link was of your telling someone to fuck off. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 08:38, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

British Israelism

This article is under a constant assault from believers of the ideology who can't seem to take "no" for an answer when Doug Weller gives it to them. Would a round of admin warnings or even topic bans be out of the question?

I'm serious, the entire talk page except for the first section is from the last month. 74.70.146.1 (talk) 02:59, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

If you have a problem with the behavior of specific editors, you need to name them and provide diffs to back up your complaint. Otherwise it is unrealistic to expect admins to do anything. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 03:04, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Agreed. Even if an admin were moved to page-correct here, we would need to look at the behaviour of specific editors if we hoped for any lasting resolution to the issues. However, a quick perusal of the article and talk page demonstrates the the OP/IP is not being altogether histrionic in claiming that there are major issues there; most of the threads of that talk page demonstrate a whole lot of activity from some inexperienced editors with a limited understanding of Misplaced Pages sourcing standards, neutrality principles, and the requirements of encyclopedic tone.

That said, I'm not sure if there is a whole lot of behaviour that I would describe as per se WP:Disruptive. I've seen no evidence that the inexperienced editors are doing much that is improper, other than being really, really persistent while also being really, really wrong. Maybe there has been edit warring or other behavioural issues that did not become immediately aware to me as I moved through those threads, but if not, I'm not sure we are at a point yet that requires administrative attention. There's only a small number of editors contributing right now and though I certainly feel for Doug as he attempts to keep this situation in check, if the only obnoxious thing the "believers" are doing at present is being long-winded in advocating for their approach, I'm not sure what is to be done at this point. I think we need more perspective on the issues here before we can consider any course of community action. And even then, RfC might be a better first stop, before ANI. Doug Weller, any additional thoughts? Snow 04:16, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

• Dear IP, the non-specific and WP:DIFF-less nature of your report means that this thread is just going to get ignored. You yourself have never edited either the article or its talk page. If you are merely wanting "admin eyes" on the article, Doug Weller is already monitoring the article, and he's a big boy and can handle things. It's also worth noting that the OP has had an enormous amount of warnings in the seven months he has been editing , mainly regarding the Israeli/Judaism subject area, the most recent warnings being yesterday and the day before, so perhaps a WP:BOOMERANG is in order. Softlavender (talk) 05:27, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
• Foks, WP:DOLT tells us that a complaint about an article should be taken seriously, even if the complaint includes legal implications (WP:NLT). In the same way, there is no need to pile-on to the IP unless some examination of the issue has occurred. I have been watching British Israelism for a while and a glance at Talk:British Israelism shows it has a massive WP:SPA problem with 426 edits this year, compared with 329 edits in the previous thirteen years. I wanted to help but have been driven off by the blizard and Doug Weller should not suffer alone—obviously he's not there for recreation. Attention to the article and talk page is needed, although how to get that attention is unclear. Johnuniq (talk) 08:03, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
  • Thanks. The page was also the subject of edits by socks for quite a while - see Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Anglo Pyramidologist/Archive, but that's not a current problem. At times this last week or so I've thought of giving up but some more editors have joined in. It's not just this page, British-Israel-World Federation is being edited by its president, and a move request I've made at Talk:British-Israel-World Federation has had only 2 responses, one from the president (as an IP but making it clear in his edit summary who he is) and the other by the secretary of the Victorian branch who has also been busy creating new articles. The editor this is mainly about is User:Wilfred Brown. Although he uses quotes from policies, guidelines and essays and their acronyms, I'm not convined he understands them. Right now he's looking for a 'neutral' source, one without bias that doesn't take sides. I think he may mean that doesn't mention the anti-Semitism and racism that has been part of the movement and that spawned Christian Identity, which is really hard to avoid by any acdemic studying the subject. He recently commented saying that some of the text is "filling up the article with info about 'Christian Identity' to the point where Christian Identity should get it's own page. .. Oh wait". See also his response to User:Agricolae at Talk:British Israelism#Central tenets redux. On the other hand it has always been a bad article and he's spotted some terrible sources that have been removed. But at the same time he wants to use self-published sources, telling us that the Bible was self-published. I'd better stop now or the malware that crashed my first reply in Chrome might move over to FireFox. Neither Norton nor MalwareBytes have solved it, a mess. I'll go make sure Wilfred Brown knows about this discussion. Doug Weller talk 08:43, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
    • Just recalled something I'd written in Chrome saying that it would nice see this resolved without sanctions and without other editors giving up in despair. Doug Weller talk 08:46, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Look, as the new editor in question, I admit that I'm totally green when it comes to editing Misplaced Pages, however, I have read many of the policies, and have a much better understanding of how things work now. I like to believe I make valid points on the talk page. Are they numerous? I don't know. I do know the topic itself is large, and 100s of books have been authored by British Israel adherents over the centuries. It's not my intention to promote anything, but having read many of those books over the past 30 years, I do recognize that this article is grossly lacking information on the subject, and is unbalanced towards it's critics. It's a little better now, but has a long way to go. And as I stated, I only want to see a clear version of What British Israelism is, and how the adherents came to those beliefs. Then add all the refs to counter those views. You won't see me deleting any of it unless they violate Misplaced Pages policies. But endeavoring to get to this point has been a non-stop battle. For a recent example; There's was a section 'Theological claims that assert a racial lineage'. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=British_Israelism&diff=777403948&oldid=777390438 It's nearly incomprehensible, and raises points unrelated to the title. But, it's completely unreferenced. It's been sitting in article since before 2012. I said 'it needs to go' in talk, nothing got changed, so like you say, be bold, so I deleted it with 'WP:V Violation 'All material in Misplaced Pages mainspace, including everything in articles, lists and captions, must be verifiable'. But it was reverted a short time later by Agricolae, without any references. It took a third party to agree that it needed sources. However if I add a line or topic, and the reference I use isn't considered good enough, it's often deleted within minutes. So completely contentious, unreferenced posts can sit there for a decade, but try to add a well known and understood British Israelism belief, (which is the majority viewpoint on the page, right?) well, be prepared for a battle. One thing I was completely unaware of was that a little sarcasm or suggesting that there's bias gets you dragged here. I'll keep that in mind. Wilfred Brown (talk) 09:59, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

@Wilfred Brown: No one dragged you here. You were being discussed by others who didn't name or notify you about this discussion, and I thought it courteous to let you know. I didn't drag you here at all. Yes, I commented on my view of the problem your sarcasm, but I didn't say you said there was bias, the word "bias" was used in the context of the sort of source you wanted, and it's fine to say that there is bias. Doug Weller talk 12:02, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

(since I have been accused of . . . something?) All I wanted was a little bit of time (by which I meant less than a day) to improve the text that had only been flagged for concern just a few days earlier along with over a dozen other passages - fixing problems does not happen instantanously. So, I reverted a single time, and when I was reversed by a third party that was the end of it, at least for me and I turned by attention to trying to forestall further deletions of newly-flagged material. That this interaction should be turned into a cause célèbre, prime evidence for some grand design to present a biased view of the topic, seems disproportionate. Agricolae (talk) 15:37, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Why then do you not show the same courtesy to new edits? Wilfred Brown (talk) 16:38, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

I have already explained in much detail on the Talk page both time I reverted or removed new information and I see no good coming from playing this out again here in ANI, where it really isn't relevant. Anyone interested can look at the Talk page and the edit history. I don't anticipate the servers crashing from everyone rushing to see. Agricolae (talk) 18:50, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

And just to add, an example of how messed up this article is, there isn't even a consensus on the definition of British Israelism itself. I've been collecting a list on the talk page. So far we have 16 different definitions. Wilfred Brown (talk) 17:16, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

That is not an issue with the article. that is an issue with BIism and the fact it is not a unified movement or organisation. This is one of the issues that I am seeing, edds who want to try and make it seem like BI believes X when different "branches" disagree on it.Slatersteven (talk) 08:34, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

• Johnuniq, where in the world are you getting legal threats in the OP? I've read it several times and as far as I can tell it's just a standard "need eyes/help on this article" post. Softlavender (talk) 00:43, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
  • Sorry about the confusion—legal threats are not relevant here! When I replied, three editors had commented, each pointing out that the IP had not identified specific issues or editors or diffs. My comment was to say that DOLT tells us to consider a complaint even if it violates NLT, and in the same way it is obvious that the IP is reporting a real problem, even if the report violated the norms of ANI. By the way, the topic of the article is extreme WP:FRINGE. Johnuniq (talk) 02:40, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

I think there is a serious issue with POV pushing by edds with COI, but (as Dougy points out) at least one of them has also made a few valuable edits.Slatersteven (talk) 08:34, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

User:The1337gamer ignores my discussions and humiliates me

Hi there, I would like to report User:The1337gamer. I have had various edit disagreements with him, but ultimately, I agree with edits because he's more experienced with Misplaced Pages then I am. However, that should not excuse his rude behaviour towards me in which he's intentionally ignored a discussion that I started with him regarding his rudeness with me. For example, he interrupted a discussion by assuming that I have "A tendency to not bother reading instructions", without understanding the full context of my post. He's also insulted me personally whilst I was in the process of modifying the Template:Bandai Namco hardware template. Iftekharahmed96 (talk) 16:43, 28 April 2017 (UTC) −

Welp, I can't help but notice that I don't see that you notified them of this discussion. Dlohcierekim 16:53, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Also the lack of diffs backing your statement up... --Skamecrazy123 (talk) 16:55, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

@Iftekharahmed96: I have notified The1337gamer for you but without diffs showing the problem it is unlikely any anything will be done. --NeilN 17:15, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

This looks like an old dispute, and I'm not seeing anything like what you're describing Iftekharahmed96. The Bandai Namco hardware template dispute goes back to December 2016

with nothing any more recent than that. The only discussion I see between you two also happened on your talk page and it appeared to end amiably enough. I see no evidence of any interaction between you two after that, so unless I'm missing something, it looks like this is an old dispute and it should be closed up as such.  Ҝ Ø Ƽ Ħ  18:04, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Will close when OP gets a chance to see/comment in 12 hours or less. L3X1 (distant write) 20:50, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

This is nothing to do with the dispute itself, rather its this user's tendency to act hostile towards me. I just used that particular dispute as one example of his behaviour. He intentionally ignores me when I want to have a serious conversation with him and that's concerning because Misplaced Pages is a community driven website. All I ask is that he treats me with respect and respects my point of view. So far, he's treating me like a joke of an editor. Iftekharahmed96 (talk) 10:17, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

I was not rude, I did not attack you, and I did not make an assumption. I made an accurate observation based on , , and previous encounters. In fact, this ANI you've opened further bolsters my observation because you did not provide diffs and you did not notify me of the discussion, therefore you did not bother to read or follow the instructions at the top of this page. If you're humiliated by what I said, then maybe you should re-evaluate your own behaviour and editing habits. You are reporting me because you don't like my tone, but have you ever considered how yours is perceived by other editors? Every time you get reverted, you seem to take it as a personal offence and start blindly reverting. Your attitude towards other editors is awful at times. In this diff () you asked GB fan to stop taking the mick because they rightly reverted you for incorrectly following deletion processes. GB fan then explained to you why your edits were reverted and they directed you to the correct instruction pages to learn how to properly complete your task. GB fan was being helpful and giving you advice and your reply to them was that they had ridiculous bias which isn't at all what they displayed. () And then, as usual, you run off to get another editor to intervene by presenting them with misleading statements that try to favour your side of the argument. Let's not forget one of your previous attempts to get an uninvolved editor to initiate an edit war with me by telling them that I was making so-called "incorrect" edits (), all while I was trying to resolve the content dispute in a discussion that was already taking place. Even when I told you not to request other editors to edit war with me, you somehow took offence to what I said, completely ignoring your own actions as though they were perfectly fine (). After GB fan opened the RfDs correctly on your behalf and deletion was unanimously opposed, your remark to him just shows off your childish behaviour even more Well, looks like you win, I've pulled everything I can. You played fair and square. (). Rather than trying to understand the other side of an argument or in this case, simply Misplaced Pages's deletion policy, you treat the dispute as a game that you must win at all costs. Your attitude is terrible and you're not going to get anyone to collaborate with you if it continues like that. Re-read the comments, which you consider to be a serious conversation, that you posted on my talk page (, ): You open with a with a rhetorical question stating that I am rude. You say that I barged into a discussion as though I did something wrong; I am not prohibited from posting another user's talk page. You take an aggressive tone by demanding that I explain myself. When I don't answer immediately, you threaten to report me. You were trying to bait me into an argument, not a serious conversation. My comment on you not always reading instructions or following deletion processes properly was completely valid and not hostile in any way. I'm not humiliating you, you're doing that yourself. --The1337gamer (talk) 10:42, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

I'm humiliating myself? There you go again, that's a personal attack. Running with assumptions as if you know who I am personally. I'm honestly disgusted by your confrontational attitude towards me. The way you present yourself, you sound as though you have a superiority complex over me. I've had differences with other editors, but I've been able to eventually come to an agreement with them. Heck, I'm very collaborative too, and I like to learn from more experienced editors. You're the exception to the rule because you're rude and you like to humiliate me when the opportunity strikes right for you. The quote Well, looks like you win, I've pulled everything I can. You played fair and square. wasn't even an insult. It was me admitting that GBFan was right. I even apologised to him and ensured that I'll take his edits over mines next time. This is what your assumptions (to a discussion that has nothing to do with you, mind you) end up doing. Is it too much to ask that you talk to me with civility and not someone starting a flame war in a YouTube comments section? Iftekharahmed96 (talk) 19:52, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Good job not reading almost the entire of my post and trying to badly twist specific parts to paint me in a negative light. Love how you choose to ignore all the evidence I provided of your own uncivil behaviour just so you can write more nonsense about me. --The1337gamer (talk) 20:09, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

I see no evidence presented that indicates that The1337gamer requires a warning or other admin action. --NeilN 00:52, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

So is this a free pass for him to keep personally attacking me? Because all I'm asking is for him to have some empathy and talk to me in a negotiable manner, not an authoritarian manner. Iftekharahmed96 (talk) 10:39, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

I have not been personally attacking you. We have two disputes in the past. One was a content dispute which was resolved through discussion, even after your attempt to mislead other editors into edit warring with me. The second was a speedy deletion that I opposed. I explained my opposition on your talk page and gave you instructions to carry out the deletion properly. But you continued to blindly restore the CSD until another editor declined it. Pointing out that you don't always read instructions or follow deletion processes properly is not a personal attack, especially when that is what you continue to do. You actually don't seem to realise that I was the editor that prevented you from getting blocked when you were accused of being a sockpuppet (). --The1337gamer (talk) 11:58, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Look, all I'm asking is that you should consider the way you phrase things before you say them. Something that you may think may mean no harm, may be interpreted negatively by someone else. I appreciate that you were one of the people that supported me when I stated that I wasn't a sockpuppet, but that was at a time when I recently joined the Misplaced Pages as an active member, and it wasn't exactly the most warmest welcome to be accused of being a recently banned user just because I coincidentally edited the same articles as they did, so I couldn't really identify as to which member was which back then. I'm all for having my mistakes pointed out, and learning from them. Please just don't poke at my personal abilities or inabilities whilst doing so. I've said my piece, hopefully something came out of this. the respective moderators can decide what to do with this discussion from this point forward. Apologies if I've caused any unwanted disruptions to everyone involved in the conversation. Iftekharahmed96 (talk) 15:40, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Attempted doxxing / Casting aspersions by Auntieruth55

User Auntieruth55 (talk · contribs) has attempted to apparently link me to an off-wiki account in this post to the WP:MILHIST noticeboard (diff) (revision deleted). This was done as part of an on-going dispute on this board and borders on harassment. Shortly before posting to MILHIST, the editor added a comment to the ANI above (ANI/Boomerang proposal: Topic ban for User:Dapi89):

• I found a reddit page with all kinds of instructions about how to disrupt wikipedia's efforts to provide some coverage of the German military. I have it bookmarked and I could post the page here, but I'm not sure it would be productive. (diff) I note that the editor chose not to post the link here at ANI, but instead did so at MILHIST.

For prior comparative attempts, please see ANI archives:

• Attempted doxing by IP (DGG has stated: Anyone who continues to play games to see how close they can come to doxxing will be blocked.)
• Attempted doxing by User:HicManebimusOptime

The user has subsequently removed the link from MILHIST, but not the commentary: There apparently rewards for spiking the project, too. Just saying... but anyone curious about the "reddit link" could retrieve it from the article history. The editor pretty much suggested such on their Talk page, while acknowledging that the link was likely problematic:

• I was told that it would be like "outing" or harassing someone, so I deleted the link. Sorry. and If you've got the skills, I suppose you could go to the history page.... (diff).

The user has recently posted commentary across multiple noticeboards targeting me. This post to MilHist apparently refers to me (Unilateral deletions and massive changes of FA articles), but I was not notified: It seems to me that one editor wants these articles to go in a specific direction... (diff). On this thread (Unilateral deletions, edits, etc. of Good and Featured Articles), created at the same time & addressed to me, the user commented:

• This seems like it has one intent: to drive a specific discussion of WWII pilots in the direction you want. (...) The intent is quite clear.

There was no response to my question about any specific objections. I thus consider this discussion to consist of unsubstantiated aspersions, while no dialog has been offered. Since then, the editor has found the time to post multiple times to the MilHist thread and this noticeboard.

The user has previously accused me of conducting a crusade (multiple times) (sample diff), arbitrary editing articles simply because do not like (diff), being disruptive (diff), obstructionist and in defiance of Misplaced Pages standards ( FLC discussion) and anxious to discredit these previously approved articles! (diff). Please see also: the discussion at NPOVN.

The editor has continued to do same at the ANI thread linked above, referring to my Talk page posts as a barrage of wiki-rules and wikietiquette and wikipolicies which is allegedly a brilliant use of wikipedia's user guidelines to obfuscate the issue (diff). Also at this ANI, after I've requested the editor to substantiate their claims of me being engaged in incessant bickering, the editor responded with:

• I refer you to your own posts. This demonstrates incessant bickering. (...) Anyone looking at the history of the pages in question can see it. As for degenerating, the name calling -- whoever does it-- needs to stop. (diff). The editor has not been able to substantiate these allegations, but have not retracted that statement.

I'm asking the community to please evaluation this pattern of behaviour. K.e.coffman (talk) 03:20, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

• Had Auntieruth55 not themselves removed the material upon being alerted to its nature, I would indeed immediately block. If Auntieruth55 continues to interact in a negative spirit, it will be difficult to consider that posting accidental, and I will block. This should not be taken to preclude whatever action the community might want to take to deal with more general issues involving that editor or others.

I hope that this discussion and the related ones will be carefully noticed, because after this I do not think anyone involved in these disputes could be considered unaware. Everyone should know that it is considered as very serious misconduct to refer to off-wiki discussions that might even possibly identify another editor; if it rises to the point of harassment, it will almost certainly lead to an indefinite block. DGG ( talk ) 05:06, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

The possible attempted doxxing is not on, and I am glad that auntieruth has removed the material. Anything approaching doxxing must be stamped out. However, the "casting aspersions" idea is just another example of the wikilawyering, pointy behaviour and relentless and TLDR threads by coffman defending his style of editing and complaining about people who don't find it helpful to WP and have told him so. I consider this tendentious behaviour that makes editing unpleasant for other editors, but based on past interactions, I have no hope coffman will stop. I have taken to avoiding most areas being edited by coffman because they are so unpleasant. At some point they have to take some responsibility for the effect that their editing style has on other editors. This complaint (less the doxxing issue) should be ignored. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:31, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Wow. I wasn't aware that it was one of the undocumented responsibilities of admins to inform others what to take seriously and what to ignore on this noticeboard. I think most of us are mature and perceptive enough to determine what to ignore ourselves, thanks. (In case it's not clear, it seems highly improper for an admin to pick sides by justifying allegations and then making a further attempt to cast stones.) Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 06:22, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

I wasn't aware that it was one of the undocumented responsibilities of admins to inform others what to take seriously and what to ignore on this noticeboard

So, you don't hang out here very often then? Or are you conflating "should" with "order"? --Calton | Talk 07:02, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

what most admins would have done was block, especially because this site has been previously linked to in this connection twice, each time from a different editor. I was in fact considering an oversight block. But I almost never block if I can possibly help it; I prefer to give warnings, and I usually word them as advice. I have no desire to judge the behavior of the different editors here--I explicitly said that just above. I think almost any other admin , upon seeing the previous warning ineffective, would have proceeded to block. But I prefer to think the ed in question here may have been unaware of the seriousness, and I give the benefit of the doubt yet again. I'm not an admin because I want to enforce the rules by sanctioning people; I want to enforce the rules by guiding people, and I'm an admin because the ability to use sanctions if necessary can in practice sometimes make the guidance very much more effective. If I do have to block, I will regard it as a failure. DGG ( talk ) 08:23, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

The reported incident, about a page mentioned before and reported by the same person before (surprise) clearly was no doxing at all. During the respective discussion several people had brought forward criticism about the project WPMILHIST; and all Auntieruth55 waid that there apparently exists an exterior discussion about the project, too. He didn´t mention Coffmann in that post or the followup; the only "pattern of behaviour" is that he was part of that discussion again, the repeated disturbance of the project's work and the repated reporting by said user. ...GELongstreet (talk) 12:34, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

• As an editor involved, I didn't ever see the MILHIST post, just what was on the noticeboard, and am the editor Auntieruth replied to on the talk page. (I never saw the final comment about history) If GELongstreet is right, than there is no doxxing involved. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 13:27, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
• The material involved had been oversighted twice in the past. I agree with DGG that the initial removal suggests this was unintentional, but the talk page reply to L3X1 on her talk page is the definition of trying to get around our rules on outing and harassment. Telling a fellow editor how to see material that has been deemed oversightable in the past is not okay. TonyBallioni (talk) 14:05, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
  • I've struck part of my statement above based on the replies here. I agree with DGG and Peacemaker that anything approaching doxing by linking off-wiki accounts is not good, but think it was done without malice in this case. TonyBallioni (talk) 18:31, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

response from Auntieruth

• I'm the editor who posted the reddit link and when I was told that it was not a done thing, I immediately removed it. Never heard of "doxing" (still not sure what it is). While doing some online research about the sources involved in the content dispute that underlies the discussion, I discovered an exterior discussion of our ongoing conversation (about military personnel in the Nazi era) with detailed instructions on how to get involved, how to use wiki guidelines against wikipedia, and generally how to disrupt the military history project. The instructions were not just detailed, but outright invitations to confound the project, and contained links to the intro to wiki pages. There was also considerable ridicule of our good faith efforts, some self promotion about a vandal's cross (which I've never heard of), and instructions on how to get involved in sabotaging the project, starting with WWII German Luftwaffe bios. Some editor--I don't know who it was (well, I know the reddit name, but will not mention) --had actually bragged about the disruption that he or she was causing, and named at least 2 wikipedia editors by user name. If this is being done by (an)other wikipedia editor(s), then I wonder if it is violation of WP:NOTHERE because said editor(s) would clearly not be here to build an encyclopedia but to promote an agenda and for self-aggrandizement. Is this something that should be investigated? If so, not by me. It needs someone higher up in the food chain, with higher pay grade, and seriously better internet skills.
• As for posting instructions from me to another editor on how to find "stuff", that's laughable. You can refer to conversations that are still ongoing in a previous ANI complaint (I cannot find it) that I am basically clueless about how to post differences. Eggishorn actually questioned whether I intended to post the differences I posted, and s/he is right, I'm not sure. When I get it right, it's sheer luck. I should take some lessons from a few people here.
• As a WPMILHIST coordinator, I'm very willing to help develop guidelines on "reliable sources" for potentially contentious material but I am not willing to do this in the face of a phalanx of editors with an agenda to limit the project's scope and subject matter. auntieruth (talk) 14:45, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Frankly, given that nothing posted in any of the relevant Reddit threads contain personal or identifiable information, I fail to see how this even remotely approaches doxing. I say this as someone who has actually been doxxed, to the point of having harassing material sent to my place of work. Which is to say, let's not pretend this is anything more than it is. Parsecboy (talk) 15:09, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree—I've just wasted a chunk of my life I'll never get back reading the thread in the Link So Serious It Needed To Be Revdeleted to see what all the fuss was about, and there's not a whiff of outing, doxing etc anywhere that I can see. ‑ Iridescent 15:31, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

• Auntieruth55, I accept your explanation that the link was not posted with malicious intent. However, the on-going pattern of casting aspersions still concerns me. For example, could you please point to the phalanx of editors with an agenda?

It seems the only editor that the MilHist coords are concerned about is my person, while anyone who happens to agree is part of a "tag team". Please see the other ANI thread on this board, where one such claims remains unsubstantiated: User:Creuzbourg and User:K.e.coffman Talk:Hans-Ulrich Rudel &Boomerang proposal: Topic ban for User:Dapi89.

Likewise, the only disruption that has been mentioned before is me again: We need to deal with this. Coffman is disrupting what I thought was a resolved issue, this time at the Featured level diff. Please also indicate how I've attempted to limit the project's scope and subject matter. Thank you. K.e.coffman (talk) 17:50, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

I'm a bit surprised I wasn't notified of this discussion given that it touches on one of my admin actions (revision deleting the edit under discussion here after I was alerted to it by email). I didn't think it was necessary to block or admonish auntieruth given that she'd removed the link as soon as the problems with the edit were brought to her attention. As auntieruth is is by any standards an editor in good standing (elected Military History project coordinator, lead editor of multiple FAs, clear block log, etc) it appeared to me to be an error rather than anything malicious. In retrospect I guess I should have also left a note about this on her talk page. I'd suggest that the editors involved with the underlying dispute here (the representation of Nazi German military people) take a time out, and resume with some kind of centralised discussion rather than having it out article by article given that the current pattern is inflaming things and leading to disagreements among a group of excellent editors. 09:30, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Who wrote this? An extra tilde was typed. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 14:42, 1 May 2017 (UTC) Nick-D did.

Class project at Ancient warfare

Several editors making large additions to the article. A bit seems ok but there's a lot of unsourced material, an OR comment about begging the question, and I'm not sure about the total impact on the article. I can't do much on my iPad and we really need to find their teacher. Help would be appreciated. Doug Weller talk 08:22, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I had to redact it; I tried, but it was just too much to fix at once, with too many unsourced and undue claims. El_C 08:39, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Seeing some possible copyvio, too, for the first edit that I let stand (Naval warfare)—someone should look into that as I am signing off. El_C 09:00, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

The instructor for this class is listed as Ieremu and Tokyogirl79 is associated as well.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 10:43, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Thanks both. Editing in a moving car on an iPad is chancy, so I stopped. And of course on my PC or laptop I can highlight and right click to search Google easily for copyvio, not that simple on a tablet. Hopefully we'll hear from the editors associated with this project. Doug Weller talk 12:56, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

• Thanks for pinging me! I've admittedly been editing predominantly under my WikiEd account more than my main account for the time being, so I missed this initially. I'll message the professor and contact the students over this. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 04:47, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

There's been a good post by Tokyogirl179 under her WikiEd account at User talk:HistoryisKing so hopefully this will be resolved. Doug Weller talk 12:54, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Senor Freebie

I feel that this editors use of edit warring/WP:STICK, drama/reality perception, and accusations of personal attacks have not improved since their previous blocks for this behavior.

• Senor Freebie (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

See history leading to previous blocks at Talk:Battle_of_Brisbane and .

Drama/reality perception:

• Removal of source supporting statement in article, while claiming material is unsourced. He has continued to blank the content despite my documentation, with quotes from the source, that the statement is indeed verifiable, ie , .
• Obviously inaccurate claim of "unsourced". Repeated claim of "no corresponding source" after blanking what was source #49.
• Claim of "unsupported" to content that faithfully matches source, as pointed out here
• Here we have already agreed that this paragraph is unwarranted, but SF accidentally reverted it back in. Here is SF's response to my observation that we are in agreement.
• Described content as "unsourced" after a 2nd citation was added at his request.

Personal attack allegations:

The content disagreement would be solvable without the behavior issues; the article needs a lot of work but it is not going to be fixed with mass blanking and hyperbole.

Notified . VQuakr (talk) 17:08, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Borderline personal attacks

I don't know if this is the right place, or even if these are really personal attacks, but I am not happy with them, so I'd like to ask for outside input on how to deal with this, if at all. 112.211.214.39 (talk · contribs), who seems to be the same editor as Deisenbe (talk · contribs), although I stress the word "seems", first wrote this, which is still arguably okay, and then this, which I think is not okay any more. In the first edit he seems to claim rabbis don't know their stuff, while in the second edit he seems to make generalizations about rabbis and for unclear reasons makes incorrect assumptions about the ability of rabbis to edit Misplaced Pages. Are these edits okay or are they personal attacks? What, if anything, should I do about them? Debresser (talk) 17:53, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

I am not that anonymous editor and have no idea who he is. What SPECIFIC TO ME are you objecting to?deisenbe (talk) 18:17, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Read what I wrote above regarding the second edit. Debresser (talk) 18:25, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

I agree that this edit was inappropriate, in at least two ways. I have closed the discussion and asked Deisenbe not to do it again. John (talk) 18:27, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

There needs to be zero tolerance for that kind of attack. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 18:46, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

It was a mild aspersion, not a blatant personal attack. John's post on Deisenbe's talk page struck the right notes. --NeilN 23:35, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

• (Non-administrator comment) Technically, those comments are not personal attacks, as they are addressing article content issues. The fact that they place those content issues at the feet of a particular user and are written in a manner that appears to address one user in an overly hostile manner on an article talk page means that they are at least uncivil, but (assuming Debresser actually is engaged in the kind of problematic editing mentioned in the linked diffs) they still do not rise to the level of personal attacks. And when one isn't sure whether something is meant as a personal attack or not (as the OP certainly appears not to be), the first stop should not be ANI. Debresser's first step should have been to reflect on whether there is merit to claims like you constantly look at written sources from long ago, and all but ignore what is going on today and Your claim that I should not have restored Catholicism because of talk page discussion is self-serving. The opposition is from you and only you. No one on the talk page supports you. You're the one being disruptive. and then, if one determines that they are indeed unjustified ad hominem remarks, request that they retract them. Debresser's first and only edit to Deisenbel's talk page before notifying them of this ANI discussion was more than two years ago. I don't see any need for admin action here, especially now that John has already done Debresser's job and asked Deisenbe to focus on content. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:08, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

I did check myself to see if the accusations were correct, which they were not. Both of them. Remains only what you call incivility, and I called it in the header of this thread "borderline personal attack". I came here to ask for other editors' opinions, not asking for sanctions, and that has been clear to all here, so I think the claim that WP:ANI should not have been my first stop is not justified. Debresser (talk) 12:02, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Continued exhibition of prejudice not acceptable on Misplaced Pages: Deisenbe opened a thread about the underlying content issue at WP:DRN. In that thread he again emphasizes the fact that I am a rabbi, and shows unacceptable prejudice against religious Jews. Please review the text, and decide for yourself. Debresser (talk) 17:13, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

I find it perplexing that a user with multiple religious affiliation userboxes, including self-identification as a rabbi, complains when another editor says, "they are a rabbi." If you do not want your religious affiliation and position to be part of your wiki-identity, you could leave those off. If you do want them to be part of you wiki-identity, then I would expect other editors to interpret your postings in light of that self-identification. I see nothing in Deisenbe's posts referred to that say something like: "Rabbi's opinions are invalid because they are a rabbi." They are, rather, complaining more that "Rabbi thinks other opinions about Judaism are invalid because they do not match Rabbi's teachings." I don't think Deisenbe has substantiated that position, but unless I messed something, that is not the same as saying Deisenbe has made unacceptable religious-prejudice PAs. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 18:04, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

I have no problem with everybody knowing I am a rabbi. I do have a problem with an editor who says that because I am a rabbi, therefore I am not open to discussion, and implying basically in almost as many words that I can not be a good editor on Misplaced Pages because I am a rabbi. Because that is how I interpret "Its position, and his, is that Judaism is totally defined by texts from centuries ago. What Jews do or think about Judaism in the twentieth and twenty-first centuries is to him irrelevant. He is totally inflexible and will not compromise on anything.". Not to mention that this statement shows him to be rather ignorant of Judaism and its teachings. Debresser (talk) 19:16, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Their comment was a violation of the widely-ignored principle, "play the ball not the man" (which is not to say that it violated WP:NPA). ―Mandruss ☎ 19:29, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

@Debresser:, thank you for the clarification. I would say you are partially justified in your interpretation but the end result is still in line with Mandruss's statement. That is, interpreting those statements as ".. because I am a rabbi, therefore I am not open to discussion.." is reasonable. It is, I feel obliged to say, slightly bizarre to anyone who knows anything about the tradition of Talmudic debate that Deisenbe seems to imply a rabbi is not open to discussion. That said, I don't think the interpretation of "...implying...that I can not be a good editor..." is justified by Deisenbe's statements, especially in the light of AGF. Not that my non-admin opinion has any intrinsic worth or influence. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 19:54, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

I am willing to allow for the notion, that I may be exaggerating. That is precisely why I came here, to ask for input, as can be seen from the careful header of this section. At the same time, I do think that Deisenbe's edits over the years, which I quoted below, make the case for a prejudiced editor with possibly a personal ax to grind with Orthodox Judaism. Debresser (talk) 19:59, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

I commend your care and I believe my answer above addresses that specific concern. I see another issue here of good faith, though. That is one of making assumptions about another editor's beliefs. Beliefs about beliefs, as it were. Deisenbe apparently believes that you believe secular Jews are not Jews at all. You apparently believe Deisenbe believes Haredi Jews are not qualified to edit on religious edits due to a minority and restrictive viewpoint. Both of these positions (assuming my beliefs about both beliefs about the corresponding beliefs (whew!) are correct) are not assuming good faith and should be abandoned. If that makes any sense at all outside my head. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 21:40, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

I differ with that interpretation of AGF. Good faith goes to one's honesty and integrity, full stop. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:46, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

I do not believe I have a prejudice against "religious Jews", whatever that means. Religious Jews are welcome to write whatever they want about their religious beliefs or practices. What I object to is Debresser's intolerance of any other variety of Judaism. deisenbe (talk) 18:22, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Well, if your assumption that I am intolerant is based on the claim that I don't consider non-Orthodox Jews - Jews, then I simply have no idea where you dug up so much horseshit. You seem to know less about Judaism than you think I do about Christianity. :) Debresser (talk) 21:45, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

He continues with completely off-limits questions on my talkpage, asking me to clarify my religious points of view. Debresser (talk) 19:13, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

I would like to point out that there were four earlier discussion on that same Talk:Judaism and sexuality talkpage in which Deisenbe disagreed with me, from 2014, 2015, 2015 again, and one more in 2015, and then too Deisenbe tried to play the "you are a Haredi Jew and rabbi and have a rigid POV" card. The second diff is especially informative. This editor seems to have a clear allergy against Orthodox Jews, but he shouldn't play that card to try and get his way on Misplaced Pages. Especially telling is his post "This article is about Judaism and sexuality. But what is Judaism?", which reads more like his personal credo than as a serious discussion. In short, this editor, and this editor alone is trying to push his personal conceptions and points of view, and is apparently frustrated that I disagree with him. Debresser (talk) 19:33, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

• Recommend stern warning: The diffs in the OP strike me as pretty typical "pushing the envelope" that people tend to do online when approaching a sensitive topic; rather than going full bore with the first post they tend to begin by vaguely mentioning the topic they want to address, and if nobody picks up on it, mention it again in a more focused manner. In normal situations this is a good thing, and indicative that an editor is sensibly attempting to avoid derailing the discussion by triggering controversy. Here, it is not, because it indicates the poster was seeking to make an issue of Debresser's status as a Rabbi to impugn, improperly, Debresser's opinions as biased or clouded by his POV. While there are some circumstances where it might be appropriate to suggest another editor check his or her POV based on his or her qualifications (this happens a lot in the ALTMED arena, though often in far too aggressive a manner), I believe it is highly inappropriate here because any reasonable editor should know that bringing up another editor's identification or life experiences as a Jew in arguing against that editor's participation anywhere is all but certain to trigger controversy, destabilize discussion, and bring the encyclopedia into disrepute. Honestly, from the "pushing the envelope" I discuss above, I believe it's fair to infer that the editor had actual knowledge that bringing up Debresser's identity bore a high risk of destabilizing the discussion. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, and the editorial process requires collegial interaction in order to resolve disputes. Arguments directed towards an editor's person are generally not helpful, even where another editor might have brought up his or her qualifications or identity first. Editors must strive to resolve disputes on the merits, and avoid conduct that is likely to seriously interfere with another editor's ability or willingness to participate on Misplaced Pages. Arguing about another editor's Jewish identity as pertaining to his or her ability to constructively contribute to an article, even an article about Judaism, is inappropriate. I believe Deisenbe should be given a stern warning, perhaps a final warning, with it noted that repetition should result in a topic ban or siteban.

  I believe this is the proper outcome even if we assume the anonymous editor is not Deisenbe, because Deisenbe's comment here, which specifically argues about Debresser's identity as a Haredi Rabbi as interfering with his ability to participate in the discussion, is itself unacceptable within the framework I discuss. Any reasonable editor should know better than to make this sort of argument because of the extremely high risk of destabilizing and derailing discussion. This is precisely why we have WP:NPA: Personal attacks, even if made alongside meritorious arguments, run an unacceptably high risk of derailing discussions and alienating editors. The same is true about arguments targeting an editor's personal identity. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 21:12, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

And another one: Seraphim System

Please see this edit. Saying "Since you self-identify as a rabbi, this does not appear to be a good faith mistake". Same talkpage, same issue, same pattern of hasty reverts that are not justified by policy. Debresser (talk) 21:16, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) I don't see anything uncivil about that edit. An isolated and explained departure from AGF is nothing out of the ordinary. ANI also isn't the place to complain about each and every "borderline personal attack" that comes one's way. (I am not watching this page, so please ping me if you want my attention.) --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 21:36, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

On the same page and about the same issue. That is not a departure from good faith. That is another editor catching on the prejudice of the previous editor. Which is precisely the reason prejudice should be fought from the very beginning. Debresser (talk) 21:41, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

At this point I would suggest WP:BOOMERANG for accusing editors of personal attacks when the comments are about content - since User:Debresser claims subject matter expertise, his use of a single cherry-picked quotation to insert his extraordinary POV claim without adequate sourcing appears to be outside the bounds of good faith. My comment was intended to be a civil warning about what this may look like to others. It is not acceptable to promote your own religious POV by inserting indequately sourced WP:SYNTH. We have asked him to provide additional balancing sources, and this is the second time he has responded by filing a AN/I complaint. Seraphim System 21:46, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

That is one suspicious usage of the word "we"...

I refuted the WP:SYNTH argument on the talkpage. Please don't turn this into a content dispute.

The statement is not POV, and nobody has suggested it is. Not till now at least. May I also remind you that the statement was in the article for a long time (since the very creation of this article in 2010!) without any opposition at all, even before I added a source to it.

I added a source to a statement that was previously unsourced. I disagreed with you on the talkpage that the source is not good enough. Especially since one of your arguments against that source is that it is written by a rabbi! At the same time, that too is a content issue, and if you would find consensus for that opinion on the talkpage, then I'll try and find a better source. Debresser (talk) 21:49, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

You are the one bringing content disputes to AN. Rabbis are not experts in Christian theology, but besides that the source is being misrepresented to insert POV. You are incorrect in your assumption that all forms of Christianity share the same view about sex and original sin - Quakers are one example. I was only trying to politely bring your own bias to your attention.Seraphim System 22:00, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

That is another incorrect statement from you. I did not bring any content dispute here, just the behavioral one.

I also did not say that "all forms of Christianity share the same view about sex and original sin". I said that it is true for Christianity in general. As it is. With notable exceptions (you mentioned Quakers), which surely fall outside the scope of that article per WP:UNDUE. Debresser (talk) 22:06, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Yes you actually did say that ] - not to mention you keep restoring a section that is WP:SYNTH and fails verification based on the quote provided. As other editors have pointed out, most likely Rabbi Gold's quote is about the development of doctrine in a particular context, which you have left out. As a subject matter expert, you should be more sensitive to most to the fact that religious doctrines have at times diverged, split into new sects. You can not just say something is true for basically all of Judaism and all of Christianity - again you need a source for this, if you are using it as a reason for inclusion, which you are. You can not just ask all editors to simply accept your subject matter expertise. Maybe this is a good faith mistake, because sometimes subject matter experts can be too reliant on their own expertise on an issue. But we could have had this discussion on talk, instead of here at AN. What I said certainly wasn't meant as a personal attack, and I don't really think an AN complaint was necessary to resolve this.Seraphim System 22:30, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Also I am sorry if you felt this was a personal attack or thought I was unwilling to discuss this with you, I absolutely value input from editors with different POV and sources with different POV. What I think is a problem is that you feel it is a "personal attack" when editors try to point out how your POV may be influencing your analysis and that you can't see the point other editors are trying to make about the current wording of the section, and that you don't see the problem with representing the opinion of a single scholar as a fact about "all of Judaism and all of Christianity" Seraphim System 23:03, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

I indeed maintain that I do not have a POV on this, and that my opinion is the opinion of experts in this area. Which is why I added a source, to show I am right. Just now I added another 3, all stating clearly the same thing. You and Deisenbe have not shown a single source apart from a medieval Christian primary source which is limited to Catholicism alone. So who is the one who is looking only towards ancient sources, and not willing to be flexible? The fucking chutzpe of the two of you to accuse me of your own faults! And to use the fact that I am an Orthodox Jew as an argument against me, where the intellectual integrity of rabbinic Judaism stands opposed to the oppressive and dogmatic practices of the Christian Church! Now you really got me mad. Anyway, editors here will judge the behavioral issues with more detachment than I. Debresser (talk) 11:33, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

• I agree that this wasn't a personal attack. I do think, however, it could have been better phrased in light of the above complaints. In part it reads to me like the fairly standard argument that another editor's conduct has pushed good faith to the limits. Most of us do this, and though it's probably not very productive when we do, it's not a personal attack. Moreover, the reference to Debresser's status as a Rabbi does not render it a personal attack given the context. The intent clearly was to say in light of the education and knowledge Rabbis possess, it stretches good faith to assume that Debresser fully agrees with the implications of the claim Seraphim System asserts to be incorrect. But, as I said, I think it could have been phrased differently, or better yet, simply left alone. As I say above, every reasonable editor should know better than to level criticism at another editor on grounds including or resembling protected class characteristics. But in this case, I think it's qualitatively different than the statements made in the section above. I also believe Debresser might have done better to ask for redaction before coming here. Rarely is an ANI thread or subthread started within minutes of an incident productive, and they often could have been resolved by discussion. I admit this is difficult to ask of an editor who believes he or she has been maligned on account of his religion, but I think that goes to whether a BOOMERANG should lie, which it should not. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 23:32, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

User:PerfectlyIrrational aka User:EthnicKekistan

Remember PerfectlyIrrational (talk · contribs) from here and here? His sole focus, unsurprisingly, has been on White nationalism topics, ginning up thin articles on non-notable figures and organizations (Colin Robertson (activist), Lana Lokteff, Identity Evropa) and on "riots" before they even happen (2017 Patriots Day Riot, 2017 Auburn Riot.)

Now, he's ginned up another one -- 2017 Pikeville Protests -- and the only thing he seems to have learned is to not begin with "riot". I really really don't think he's here to build an encyclopedia. --Calton | Talk 01:36, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

It is pretty sad that you recklessly and falsely accuse me of being a white supremacist based on your personal instinct. If you had paid attention, it was simply a misnaming of the subject at hand due to unreliable firsthand news reports, along with the fact that I didn't know how to move the article at the time. The Pikeville rallies are well-documented and reached the top of multiple mainstream news today. Not everyone who edits articles about controversial topics supports the controversial topics within.

I'm assuming this is well-intentioned, but I would of preferred you spoke to me privately instead of publicly accusing me of being a white supremacist. PerfectlyIrrational (talk) 02:27, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

...instead of publicly accusing me of being a white supremacist

And I would prefer you not make things up, since I did no such thing. --Calton | Talk 05:38, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

He's been here two weeks, made 324 edits, 257 of which are in article space, 25 of which have been deleted (mostly articles he's created), and been reverted thirteen times. He's a major contributor to the 2017 Berkeley protests, Brittany Pettibone, Alt-Right and even one of the larger contributors to PewDiePie. Do you have any complaint besides the editor's choice of work area. If no, close immediately. If yes, is it substantially more concerning then; he has a secret agenda to promote white nationalism. Yes, he's doing a tremendous job promoting white nationalist organizations as ... well, white nationalist organizations. Really, the most gauling thing in that edit is that he's used buzzfeed as a source. Which is controversial, been relitigated many times at WP:RSN and at last check was good enough. My opinion; we should not block, ban, or otherwise revoke editing priviliges from any editor for choosing to edit in a controversial topic area just because it's a controversial topic area. If there's a problem with the articles he's creating, knock him off to AfC or TBAN him from creating articles. I don't think there is, as yet, a problem with their article creations. They are a brand new editor. I have limited expectation of competency by week two. Eight articles created with two currently deleted and two redirected is not a great record admittedly. There is, however, nothing that I have seen from the links presented above to say that he's not here to contribute. This is the second time that you have brought a case to AN/I about EK/PI. Note that I'm mighty suspicious of this new editor's intentions was the opening statement you made on the last one; the community decided that concerns over the username were, however, merited. At this point in time, I am not convinced (at all) that this is worth administrator time to intervene in. Mr rnddude (talk) 02:49, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Do you have any complaint besides the editor's choice of work area.

Perhaps you should actually read what I wrote instead of making something up. It'll give you a better handle on things. --Calton | Talk 05:38, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

This is the second time that you have brought a case to AN/I...

So? You yourself admitted -- though you buried the lead and someone else obscured the issue by censoring my original heading -- that my complaint had merit. So the point of whinging about how this is "second time" I've brought this to ANI is what, exactly, other than FUD? --Calton | Talk 05:43, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Calton, you accuse me of failing to read what you wrote, then proceed to fail to read what I did. Case in point; You yourself admitted ... my complaint had merit. I did no such thing. I said the community decided that it had merit. I personally, and you can find this on the public record, do not think that the RfC/U was merited. Furthermore, the community did not find your filing to be merited, but, held a general concern over the username itself. Your first case at AN/I was to comment about an editors name, then cast an aspersion about their motivation for editing and then ask whether you were being overly sensitive. It was somebody else's idea entirely to go to the RfC/U noticeboard. That something came about from your first complaint, does not entail that your complaint specifically was merited. I don't know what FUD is, I'm guessing that it's Fear, uncertainty and doubt. No idea what relevance that holds.
Secondarily; the sum of your new AN/I filing is IMHO one of two things. Either (almost inconceivable) 1. You're not satisfied with the articles that PI is writing and have concluded therefore that PI is NOTHERE. Or (far more likely) 2. You've noticed a pattern of contributing to white nationalism topics, including creating articles many of which are subpar, and are propping up your unease with a NOTHERE argument. Now, and I repeat myself but with expansion for clarity, o you have any complaint besides the editor's choice of work area, one which is not self-evidently borne out of your unease at their contributing solely to such a topic, but, have not provided satisfactory evidence to suggest that they are a white nationalist, a propagandist, or a NOTHERE editor. Any of which, I would posit, could be rationally argued to be a cause to block. None of which, I do not think, has been demonstrated as yet. If you hold concerns, which I can understand (if you would believe that), then feel free to monitor their contributions. I still think you should leave them alone personally, but, I am in no position to give commands. However, there should not be any action taken without some cause beyond personal "gut feeling". If it isn't clear; I am less concerned about what you "really really think", I care only that you are now twice dragging an editor to a noticeboard for no discernible reason besides your gut instincts hiding behind the veneer of lacklustre content. I am requesting a centilla of evidence that they are genuinely not here to contribute (sub-par articles and a focus on one topic is not evidence of NOTHERE; CIR with regards to article creation maybe but we're not at that juncture yet). I have already advocated that no action be taken and this thread closed. I stand by that recommendation regardless of whether you think my "less than one and a half years" tenure is sufficient to make one as such. Now, if I am grossly mistaken on any of my comments, please tell me what and where and I will endeavour to correct myself. I'm not entirely sure that you care about me doing that, I'll endeavour to do it anyway. I also note Evergreenfir's comment down below about disruption, I'll look for it and if I find anything I'll post it here. Mr rnddude (talk) 10:02, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

So, I've gone through their talk page as well as several complete articles where they are editing. Most of the notifications on their talk page are about deletion requests. Two are about RfC/U. A number of notifications are concerns over specific edits (including two false flags) and one, the most pertinent one, is about a recent edit-war over an infobox at 2017 Berkeley protests in which five people were involved. Though only PI hit the 3RR mark and risked a block. Never a good sign for a new editor to have that many notifications on their page so soon. That said, their conduct on article talk pages and generally in the articles I've gone through isn't really disruptive, contrarian and somewhat clueless sure. The edit-warring is the single most pressing issue and even the warnings for vandalism are on closer inspection not an accurate summation of the facts. The "fuck Antifa" edit was bad though, even if deferring to intent. That's all I've found. Mr rnddude (talk) 10:38, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Mr rndude: I'm uncertain if you're speaking ironically or not. If PerfectlyIrrational is "doing a tremendous job promoting white nationalist organizations", then he needs to be told to stop, immediately. See WP:PROMOTION and WP:NPOV. If he's only been here two weeks, he probably shouldn't be editing articles in a controversial topic area, let alone creating them: see WP:CIR. We may be the encyclopedia that anyone can edit, but that doesn;t mean that just anyone should edit in certain areas unless they have a good deal of experience under their belts, have good judgement, and aren't here to promote an agenda. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:43, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Speaking of the article Lana Lokteff, could an admin please check to see if the current article is substantially like the one that was speedy deleted in March? Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:49, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

My apologies BMK, I forgot that sarcasm and irony dont translate well in text. Yes, I was being ironic. I dont see an agenda or promotionalism in their contributions. Thus, I have zero reason to think the accusation of nothere to be merited. Hope thats shorter and clearer. I disagree with your assessment of where one should edit. There are different learning curves for different topics, to be sure. However judgement and experience are completely separate. Much experience does not mean good judgement and of course vice versa little experience does not equate to poor judgement. Mr rnddude (talk) 07:52, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

And that's why I said that one should have experience, good judgment, and no agenda to edit in sensitive areas. It appears to me that PerfectlyIrrational is missing at least the first two of those, and possibly the third as well. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:25, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

• The odor of footwear is strong, to be blunt. But without an SPI, not much to do there. This user, however, had been informed of the WP:ARBAP2 discretionary sanctions. Given their disruptive actions in that topic, remedies like a topic ban under your discretionary sanctions seem appropriate. If this user is truly "here", they'll edit constructively in other areas. EvergreenFir (talk) 07:02, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Who or what is EthnicKekistan? User or otherwise. It sounds familiar, but I can't place the reference. El_C 06:21, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

@El C: was a recent user but the name is in reference to the 4chan /pol/ meme kek. The name was on RFCN recently too. EvergreenFir (talk) 06:48, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

The phrase 'kek' originated on World of Warcraft, where Alliance and Horde characters were not allowed to communicate, and thus their text was shifted. lol became kek when viewed from the other party. --Tarage (talk) 11:19, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

@El C: See recent discussion at RFC/U. Funcrunch (talk) 15:27, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

• Is there a way to require this editor to submit articles as drafts for review, in lieu of blocking or banning outright? 2017 Auburn Riot and 2017 Pikeville Protests pretty clearly fall under WP:NOTNEWS (though the latter just got sent to AfD and might still survive), but 2017 Patriots Day Riot evolved into the somewhat substantial (though hotly contested and currently fully-protected) 2017 Berkeley protests. Funcrunch (talk) 22:49, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

  Re-reviewing the history of 2017 Berkeley protests I see I was mistaken; that content existed independently of 2017 Patriots Day Riot. Funcrunch (talk) 23:14, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

• As a card carrying, bleeding heart, politically correct, tree hugging, trans- and homo-sexual supporting, socialist, Trump hating, "colorblind" libtard who thinks it's always okay to punch a Nazi, I had a serious problem with PerfectlyIrrational's previous user name, but a look over their actual edits results in no particular concern about POV pushing. Yet. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 21:58, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Active Long-term Abuser - Best known for IP vandal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• 71.89.214.31 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

Behavior matches long term abuse case Misplaced Pages:Long-term abuse/Best known for IP. Originally reported to AIV, but report was removed without action by Materialscientist. Edits where the user removes "best" from the phrase "best known for" here: (too​ tedious to link every relevant edit while on my phone, these are just most recent ones).

I am admittedly rather unfamiliar with this LTA case, but the behavior matches from what I can tell. Also see editing on Jim Ward (voice actor)

EvergreenFir (talk) 06:41, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

I guess it's possible, but it doesn't look like it to me. The "best known for" IP is disruptive mostly because of personal attacks and edit warring. This IP editor seems to be more of a crapflooder. I warned the IP for spamming pointless reverts at Jim Ward (voice actor). NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 10:27, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

2.28.152.0/21 is more likely to be the "best known for" IP's latest IP range. IPs on that range have tripped the filter a few times recently, and at least one of the IP addresses seems to have been blocked already as a sock. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 11:06, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Okay, thank you both. EvergreenFir (talk) 05:08, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

WP:HOUND

User:The Banner His focus on FFA P-16 is obvious. He suggests articles from FFA P-16 for deletion for example Bucher aircraft tractor while he ignores similar articles in case their not from FFA P-16. He even started a Sockpuppet investigations on me and FFA P-16 although several others told him that we're clearly not the same person (see there). We both asked him to stop following FFA P-16 (see WP:HOUND and Stop Wikihounding me! with no success. --MBurch (talk) 10:13, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

I was assuming good faith when I posted my first several comments, but as it turns out, when one looks at The Banner's edit history a bit more closely, he posts AFDs on an almost daily basis, so the claims that his focus on FFA P-16 is obvious and he ignores similar articles in case their not from FFA P-16 are demonstrably false. The only one who is "obviously focused" on hounding one particular editor is User:MBurch, who has barely made a single edit not related to The Banner in months (his edits to de.wiki are irrelevant, as it seems he is only on English Misplaced Pages to harangue The Banner). I think that unless this thread is withdrawn and the above baseless remarks about The Banner stricken, a block and/or one-way IBAN (they are possible) should be put on the table for MBurch, and his tag-team partner FFA P-16's disruption should also probably be dealt with appropriately. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 07:24, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

It's indeed not good faith to automatically assume sock puppets on all those that don't agree on someones deletions requests especially after several people mentioned that we're clearly not the same person. At least in German Misplaced Pages where I mostly edit it would have been just part of common sense for the petitioner to at least excuse yourself after such a mistake. --MBurch (talk) 13:08, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

• He "worked" only on 3 Airports, Amsterdam (probably because he is from the netherlands) , Dublin (probably because he live in Ireland) he doesn't worked on any other Airport article.. except of deleting out informations of Zürich Airport (the biggest Airport of SWITZERLAND).
• The only Air Force Base he was "working" on was the Dübendorf Air Base (an Air Force Base of SWITZERLAND) trying to delet out informations about the Zero-G flight and other stuff.he doesn't worked on any other Air Force Base article of the whole world.. and BTW Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Dübendorf Air Base The only Air Base he want have deleted was an Air Base from SWITZERLAND. No oter tiny dusty airfiled somewere...
• The only aircraft project he want have deleted was not for e.g. the Bartini A-57, Lockheed L-2000 or Belyayev Babochka no, he wantet the Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/ALR Piranha from SWITZERLAND , created from me,do be deleted.
• The only aircraft (build) aircraft page he nominatet for deletion from him was the Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/KZD-85 from SWITZERLAND, created from me.
• The only airshow page(again created from me) he nominatet for deletion].was the one about the Air14
• The only page about an Aircraft Type he was deleting out Informations is the Pilatus PC-24 from SWITZERLAND, interestingly what is "not-notable for ihm there

not bother him on any other page like Fairey Delta 1, Avro Ashton, Hawker P.1052.

• From all Modern aerobatic teams and Disbanded military teams his only interest is to suppress Informations of all 4 Teams of the Air Force of SWITZERLAND, on no other Modern aerobatic team or Disbanded military team was touched from Banner. Things which he can not stand in any relation to the 4 Teams (Two of them the Superpuma Display and the F/A-18 Hornet Display had I creadet) of the Air Force of SWITZERLAND not bother him on any other page even with a hint he doesent touched the Dutch Solo Display Team or F-16 Demo Team.
• The only Air Force page who he tryes to "clean " is the one from SWITZERLAND.. Even if ther is an update or change in some projects (for eg. That the C-17 is no more a candidat as Cargoplane for the Swiss Air Force he does not want to admit.
• He attacked in this timeframe my userpag. Inn my eyes he has also much not notable stuff on his userpage.. but I would never touch it.

So he is usualy not active in Aviatic topics most of the time with total differend topics , like Restraurants, Beautycontests,... But if it is something about swiss aivatic, and if I had creadet the page or just add a few words, all hell breaks loose. I have the feeling this is Wikihounding.

• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Nils Hämmerli Kunstflugkommandant
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Medisize Schweiz AG Swiss plastic industrie
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Terxo AGSwiss plastic industrie
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Isopress AG Swiss plastic industrie
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/AGP 3 Trailer sole article about a bustrailer he nominated for deletion
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Military History Foundation of the Canton of Zug Only Museum he want have to be deleted
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Bernhard Müller (Officer) he wanted the next commander! of the Swiss air Force deleted
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Task Force ALBAThe only military mission he wanted to be deleted
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/SPHAIR
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Bucher aircraft tractor (2nd nomination) ‎But no other Aircrafttractor (like M2 High Speed Tractor) got nominated for deletion..
• The only air surveilance systems he nominadet ever are two from switzerland/ I had creadeted: The FLORIDA System and SRF System.

Also on EVERY Article from me who was nominated from someone else for deletion.. guess what.. he voted for delet, not a single who he didn't touched.

Non stoping provocations Verh unfriendly acting and threaten to persons who speak up against his wikihounding on me.

Everyone who came across from the german Misplaced Pages to support me in a deleting discussion got attacked from him in rude words. But not enough.. he started also a checkuser against me and several other persons.. knowing very well that no one is a sockpupped.. He had done this only because of its maliciousness.

If I add some informations somewhere he deled it out with comments like fancuf, fanboy, not notable, irrelevant ,.. But on the other hand he is insisting on such nonsense:. all this is only the peak of all the mobbing, editwarring, stalking from The Banner against me... and this again is only his constant attacks against me.. a lot of other users have to suffer because no one stop him.. a lot of users (who brought in valuable Informations ) have resgnated and left Misplaced Pages for ever.

Also he is constantly watching My talkpage.. If someon had left there a positive feedback about an article from me like here: he starts to provocate . Not only that he is stalking me in the “open” part of Misplaced Pages, he is also browsing on my not “open” pages on Misplaced Pages. He cleaned all this informations out and threatened me with a block warning on my talkpage. Also nomnadte he my ‎User:FFA P-16/workpage19 for deletion. He is damaging Misplaced Pages with his non stop deleting nominations. Also the Banner is behaving very aggressive against other people in other deleting discusions FFA P-16 (talk) 10:33, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

When I edited the page of Zurich Airport (the circle section) the user The Banner delated my New adding without a giustification. Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Z%C3%BCrich_Airport&type=revision&diff=688550466&oldid=688546793 The aviation user. Zurich00swiss (talk) 11:30, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

• (Non-administrator comment) BOOMERANG, anyone? The OP was blocked in February as a CU-confirmed sock of FFA P-16, and the two were shortly thereafter unblocked because CU was apparently a false positive or some such. But whether or not they are the same person, MBurch has not made any edits to English Misplaced Pages since being unblocked except to !vote in several AFDs opened by The Banner and otherwise harangue The Banner. Whether The Banner is hounding FFA might need to be looked into (I haven't), but that MBurch hasn't made any edits that haven't been related to The Banner is obvious. The evidence that the Banner is hounding FFA seems to be limited to the claim that the former has been posting several of the latter's articles for AFD (and this is borne out by this). But per AGF, we must assume that The Banner sincerely believes his/her stated rationales for said AFDs, and the fact that several of them have passed with consensus to delete means that said rationales may be justified. If one finds an editor writing a lot of articles on topics that one sincerely believes do not meet GNG, posting said articles for AFD is not "hounding". Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 12:16, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

@Hijiri 88, it is not that he nomiated Coincidentally this for AFD because he is thinking it does not meet GNG. like I sayd above.. The ALR Piranha was the only aircraft project he nominated he did not put one of this in question Bartini A-57, Lockheed L-2000 or Belyayev Babochka. He nominadet Bucher aircraft tractor (who i had writen) for deletion.. it had a few references ‎But no other Aircrafttractor (like U-30 Tow Tractor and MB-2 tow tractor who have NO referenc) got nominated for deletion.. The number of from The banner nominated articels i had written (especaly about the Divison General) shows exactly that it is not about GNG and draves a clear picture...The only UAV he ever nominadeted was writen from me he never nominated ANY other UAV Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/KZD-85. Very interesting is that ther is now a long line of AfD s from against articels from me..it is no coincidence that he now drag FLORIDA Airspace monitoring and management system and SRF Airspace monitoring and management systemto AfD after they exist already 4 years with "Fail WP GNG" at the same time put no other radar system who was not written from me in question (like Austrian air defense or French air defence radar systems) who's WP GNG is even weaker. That are just a few exampels.FFA P-16 (talk) 13:57, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

If you want to contest the result of Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Bucher aircraft tractor (2nd nomination), ANI is not the place to do it. If you want to nominate other pages for deletion, ANI is also not the place to do it. The fact that most of the AFDs you referred to above resulted in deletion means that the nominations must be taken in good faith. If you think someone is hounding you, you need convincing evidence thereof. I have only so far seen convincing evidence that your friend MBurch is hounding The Banner in your stead. I will admit that I have not read your wall of text, and I do not intend to; writing a massive wall of text with very few diffs is normally a pretty solid indication that you don't have such evidence. Maybe you should have told MBurch to hold off on this ANI thread until you had the diffs prepared? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 21:02, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Honored Hijiri 88.

It's not about rebooting AfD's, but about the abusive position of AfD's and wikihounding of The Banner against me.

Please do not made the victim to the guilty and the guilty to an victim.

MBurch was massively attacked by The Banner when he spoke in AfD's for the receipt of my articles. He also saw The Banner battling systematically against me, and merely asking The banner to stop it. He never bothered any work of The Banner. Likewise, Zurich00swiss also knew that he had never bothered the work of The Banner but was attacked massively by The Banner in his work on the subject of Airport Zurich and the AfD's where he spoke out to not delet my articles.

You do not seem to understand. The Banner is systematically following me, and specifically targeting AfD's against articles written by me. It is not about quality. If you would read the text from me, you would see that he makes various articles of me AfD in subjects where he is never active (UAV, Air Base, Aircraftprojects, Radar system, ..) In all these areas it has Several articles written by other users who meet much less the requirements, but he has not proposed any of them to the AfD. Some have not a single referenc or weblink ..he never touched it, but my article with references... This makes it quite clear that he has it only on me. Examples I have brought above enough.

Just to look at the some articles from me(not all!) who In AfD's had been deleted .. not to read my "long" text and then to decide The Banner is innocent. Sorry but this is not a factual investigation of this problem.

I ask you to take the time and really read and examine all my foundations. If you do not look at everything it makes no sense that you deal with this case. Then I ask for someone else who take care of this case. Someone who is willing to read all my arguments and to look at all the examples I have brought. Thank you.FFA P-16 (talk) 05:06, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Okay, first, please learn to indent consistently. It's difficult to respond to you otherwise.

If you are not interested in undoing the AFDs, then why are you trying to go back and discredit the grounds on which they were posted for AFD? The Banner's behaviour in posting those particular pages to AFD could have only constituted hounding if he didn't sincerely believe that those pages should be deleted on their own merits. If you are creating a bunch of articles that should be deleted per our inclusion criteria, the problem is with you, not The Banner. Even if he found those pages by checking your contribs, that is still legit and does not constitute hounding.

No, MBurch only posted in those AFDs because they were opened by The Banner and because the articles in question were started by you. Maybe The Banner attacked MBurch for that (you still haven't provided any diffs...), but it's abundantly clear that MBurch has been hounding The Banner -- MBurch hasn't done anything but hound The Banner.

Again, if The Banner's AFDs had merit, then what he did was not hounding. Even if it was systematic, the problem is with you writing articles that almost uniformly get deleted when posted to AFD, not with him posting them at AFD. I will explain this by giving an example. About three years ago, I noticed that a certain user was showing a severe failure to read sources and present what they said accurately, on an article that was on my watchlist. No matter how hard I tried to explain it to him, he just didn't seem to get it. I then got suspicious that he might have engaged in similar disruption on other articles, so I checked his contribs and found that my suspicion had been correct. When I pointed this out on the talk pages of the other articles (which weren't on his watchlist and which I had "followed" him to) I too was accused of "hounding". But I wasn't hounding: I noticed a user engaged in problematic behaviour and dealt with it accordingly. Even if that is what The Banner did here (and you still haven't presented any evidence that that is even what is happening), the problem is most likely with you, not The Banner. Otherwise, why would almost all of the pages have been deleted?

For what it's worth, I did check how often The Banner posts articles for deletion. Of his past 300 new page creations in the Misplaced Pages namespace, 296 have been AFDs, and that's only since January 1 of last year. That's 0.61 AFDs per day over a period of 16 months -- are all of those AFDs hounding of the users who created the articles? And do you really think you're the first one to try to accuse him of hounding rather that reflecting on your own understanding of our includion criteria? (I actually don't know. You might be. But I doubt it.)

And no. No one is under any obligation to read your massive wall of text, in which you provided no diffs or other clear evidence, before commenting to the effect that you have provided no diffs or other clear evidence. If you don't provide evidence in support of your claims, all the rest of us can do is go looking for ourselves. And if what we find doesn't support your claims, that also is not our fault.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 07:03, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

To follow my edits and then delete the article created by me is wikihounding. Again, it is not about quality. Otherwise he would have to nominate other articles on the same topics that were not written by me. I have listed this above. It is also not so that all articles of me, which he nominated has been deleted. The article about divisional general Bernhard Müller Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Bernhard Müller (Officer)shows very well that he acts AfD abuse. Only because he does 's 0.61 AFDs per day is no sing that this is right..it shows only exesive use of AfD.. and if you look at the topic of this AfD's articles.. you see that my articels are quid "exotic" to the other topics.. he is usualy not active in this topics.. a clear sign that he his wikihounding me. ..it is no coincidence that he now drag FLORIDA Airspace monitoring and management system and SRF Airspace monitoring and management systemto AfD after they exist already 4 years with "Fail WP GNG" at the same time put no other radar system who was not written from me in question (like ] or French air defence radar systems) who's WP GNG is even weaker.Again you do not want to read my text and look at the links on the left. If you do not want to read what I write here is no factual processing this case of you. Sorry. So then I am official have to say:I ask for someone else who take care of this case. Someone who is willing to read all my arguments and to look at all the examples I have brought. This is important- Thank you &byeFFA P-16 (talk) 07:28, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

In fact, I did not want to reply at all at this thread. It is the another instance of the ongoing harassment and bullying campaign of mr. FFA P-16 and his assistant MBurch. It is loud and clear that MBurch is called in to protect FFA P-16. Although his bullying/harassing is annoying, it only confirmed to me that the advice given to mr. FFA P-16 is completely ignored. And he stepped up his campaign after I nominated an attack page for deletion. He seems to think that sandbox pages are sacrosanct and untouchable to others. And that the rules of Misplaced Pages do not apply to him. See User talk:The Banner#Stop Wikihounding me!. He also seems to think that I have a personal grudge against him because he is Swiss. As a matter of fact, I do not care at all about that. But I have told/advised/urged FFA P-16 to do three things:

1. Get a clear idea of what the community regards notable
2. Get a clear idea of what the community regards as proper sourcing according to WP:RS
3. Get a clear idea that it is worthwhile to make an effort to improve your English

I have seen no effort whatsoever to address these issues.

Mr. FFA P-16 also took offence out of my sockpuppet investigation relating to MBurch. He seems to have forgotten the fact that he is earlier blocked for sockpuppetry, and and on the Dutch Misplaced Pages.

To finish this off: I do not seek any blocks. What I want are two things: a) that the present campaign stops, and b) that FFA P-16 makes a visible effort to address the three issues listed a few lines above. The Banner talk 09:04, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

To follow my edits and then delete the article created by me is wikihounding. Nope. If he sincerely thinks you don't understand our inclusion criteria (and, again, he does sincerely think that until proven otherwise), then checking your contribs and nominating certain pages written by you for deletions is perfectly acceptable.

Again, it is not about quality. Then how come, on seven of the ten AFDs you linked above, there was clear consensus to delete the pages?

Otherwise he would have to nominate other articles on the same topics that were not written by me. Again, NO. No one is under any obligation to do more or less than they wish on Misplaced Pages. We are all volunteers here. And there are no articles on the same topics written by other editors -- do you mean "on similar topics"? If so, please see WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. If you believe that those other topics don't meet GNG, you should nominate them for deletion. Don't attack The Banner for not nominating them.

It is also not so that all articles of me, which he nominated has been deleted. I have listed this above. Good for you. Unfortunately, no one said that. I said most. Specifically, 7 out of 10 of the AFDs you linked ended in deletion. And actually, of the other three, two should maybe be reconsidered with MBurch's !vote being discounted as HOUNDing.

The article about divisional general Bernhard Müller Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Bernhard Müller (Officer)shows very well that he acts AfD abuse. If you think that demonstrated abuse of the AFD process, then maybe you think the other four users who !voted to delete (and maybe even the one said "weak keep") are hounding you as well? On top of that, your own conduct in that AFD (repeatedly refusing to focus on content and making constant off-topic remarks about how you don't like The Banner) was atrocious. Linking to it was not a good idea.

Only because he does 's 0.61 AFDs per day is no sing that this is right..it shows only exesive use of AfD.. No. Lots of editors open a lot of AFDs. I don't know The Banner's particular circumstances, but some monitor new pages, which include a disproportionate number of autobiographies by non-notable individuals, blatant advertising, etc.

and if you look at the topic of this AfD's articles.. you see that my articels are quid "exotic" to the other topics.. he is usualy not active in this topics.. a clear sign that he his wikihounding me. Wait, what? No one who opens that many AFDs is focused on one topic, so the fact that he doesn't have a particular focus on airports or the armed forces (?) is irrelevant.

Again you do not want to read my text and look at the links on the left You clearly are not comfortable with me addressing all the numerous problems in those portions of your comments I have read -- do you really want me to go through your first massive wall-of-text and detail all the ways it is wrong and lends itself to my BOOMERANG idea? For example, you say that he is watching your talk page (again, something he is allowed do) and "provocating", but your "diff" of said is a blank link to the Tupolev Voron article, which The Banner has never edited. I thought for a few minutes you were (falsely) accusing him of tagging the article as needing a copyedit and went through it to see if it was accurate, then I looked around a bit and noticed this. You do still need to provide proper attribution when you translate from German Misplaced Pages, and if you translated the version that was originally written by you a year earlier, you need to note that, because, if you translated the version as it appeared when you put the translation on English Misplaced Pages and had been edited by about a dozen other editors, there is a copyright issue. You then go on about not “open” pages on Misplaced Pages, which makes no sense to me. A bit above you Non stoping provocations with a malformed link to four comments by multiple users, in which The Banner said nothing even approaching incivility. Then you say Verh unfriendly acting and threaten to persons who speak up against his wikihounding on me with a similarly malformed link, in which The Banner responds to MBurch's hounding attacks on him in a fairly reasonable manner. Seriously, what are you asking me to look at with all this?

If you do not want to read what I write here is no factual processing this case of you. Sorry. So then I am official have to say:I ask for someone else who take care of this case. Please familiarize yourself with how ANI works. Like the rest of Misplaced Pages, ANI is voluntary. No one will touch this case, because you made it too long and unintelligible. The thread will likely get archived with no further involvement from any outside parties, unless I open a separate subthread with a coherent argument for some solution to whatever problem I perceive as going on here. And your absolute refusal to provide evidence for your claims (in case it isn't clear, I did read the small portion of your wall of text that appeared to include diffs) is making me inclined to do so in a direction you apparently don't want.

Someone who is willing to read all my arguments and to look at all the examples I have brought. No one is going to read your massive, incoherent walls of text. If you have concrete examples, you should link them. I read through everything you provided that had a link attached to it, and didn't see anything of substance.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:06, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

@Hijiri. But you obviously do not want to see it. He nominates me very clearly articles in areas where he is never active. And there only items of mine no others. Even if he makes a lot of AfD's strikes this conspicuousness. I also find it wrong the people who have voted for the receipt of some articles from me and who have approached the unfriendly approach of The banner now condemned for their substantive contribution. There will be no factual reasoning on the examples which I have brought forth. Only weill The banner many edits and AfD's makes it is not trustworthy. The only thing I want is that he leaves me alone. Clearly all work here voluntarily. But this is not an obstacle for someone else to take care of this case. I am very disappointed that you do not take me seriously.

If you are not willing to take care of my concerns and no one else wants to take care of this case, I see no further meaning in this discussion. Then you can close it because it brings nothing and will only encourage The Banner in the fight against me.FFA P-16 (talk) 09:43, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Circle at Zurich Airport

• (Moved from the bottom of the page, as this is clearly subordinate to the main thread. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 12:19, 30 April 2017 (UTC))

When I edited the page of Zurich Airport (the circle section) the user The Banner delated my New adding without a giustification. The aviation user. Zurich00swiss (talk) 11:30, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Diffs please. I can't see anything in the recent history that supports your claim... --Skamecrazy123 (talk) 11:39, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

@Zurich00swiss: Please provide diffs, and if you posted the above in an attempt to "pile on" because you just don't like the user in question, note that you may well be met with a boomerang for hounding. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 12:19, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Proposal: Indefinite one-way interaction ban

Okay, I was annoyed enough by FFA's disruption clearly on display in this thread, but now that it's been pointed out to me that he created a WP:POLEMIC about The Banner here and denied the SPEEDY request with the counter-policy statement that Its MY workpage it's clear that something needs to be done. I'm therefore requesting that FFA P-16 (talk · contribs) be indefinitely banned from interacting with The Banner (talk · contribs). If The Banner nominates a page written by FFA for deletion, it should be the community's decision, and the project will not benefit from FFA showing up and posting more off-topic personal attacks against The Banner. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:20, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

• Support as nom. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:20, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Just to make it clear, user X requests a majority of user Y's articles for deletions and you suggests now that Y is now allowed to even argue with X on those deletion requests of his very own articles (since there is no other interaction from Y besides that workpage19 which should be simply deleted)? --MBurch (talk) 12:42, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

@MBurch: So you agree that User Y created an attack page about User X that should be deleted, and when it was requested that the page be deleted User Y reverted the request and placed a statement on the page that he owns it and so presumably can post whatever he wants on it? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 22:26, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

I'm sure you're aware of actio et reactio. --MBurch (talk) 22:55, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

I assume that you are implying that since The Banner was the original aggressor, FFA was justified in creating that attack page and preventing it from being deleted? But you still have not presented any evidence that The Banner was the original aggressor. Both of you are claiming that he nominated a bunch of articles created by FFA for deletion based not on the merits of the article but out of a desire to hound FFA. But I presented you with pretty incontrovertible evidence that this is not the case. The Banner nominates hundreds of pages by countless users for deletion, and in all but a few of the cases you listed a plurality of other editors agreed the pages should be deleted. All I am seeing is The Banner posting Good Faith AFDs (and constructive criticism of honestly pretty atrocious articles that don't necessarily merit deletion), FFA refusing to listen, and assuming bad faith by accusing The Banner of HOUNDing. You can try asking JoshuSasori (talk · contribs) what happens when you constantly make bad faith accusations of HOUNDing while engaging in HOUNDing yourself. That guy actually got SBANned for his efforts, then engaged in block-evasion via several IPs and actually did revenge-AFD a bunch of articles I had written (well, actually there was only one AFD opened via proxy, two article blankings, and one successful PROD of a sub-stub). You clearly do not know what you are talking about when you talk of HOUNDing; I do. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:32, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

The Banner nominates hundreds of pages by countless users for deletion and he suspects always sockpuppets when they don't agree? Of course not just in our case and just in the case of FFA P-16 he nominates several pages together. --MBurch (talk) 09:24, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

@MBurch: That is a personal attack and you should strike it unless you can provide evidence. If you are referring exclusively to the FFA SPI where you were blocked, you should say as much. On top of that: You were confirmed by CU to be a sock of FFA P-16, and CUs need a lot of DUCK evidence before they agree to perform that procedure, and the check was pre-endorsed by an SPI clerk. It's an established fact that FFA P-16 has abused multiple accounts in the past and in the case of you and M1712, it was really frickin' obvious that something fishy was going on, be it sockpuppetry or meatpuppetry. Just drop it already and go edit articles, or you will be reblocked as WP:NOTHERE, regardless of whether you were later vindicated with regards to your not actually being the same person as FFA P-16. It's been three months -- let it go, as the wickedly talented Adele Dazeem would say... Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 11:15, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

No this was not an attack, this was collecting cases of actions against me, so that I can bring this here on Ani. You broght it by your self to the light.. here you can see that he is following me yes hi is doing a lot of deletions 0,6 per day in one year is a lot (and in some kind it smells as to trigger happy for AfD's). But if you have a look ate the list you have presented It is not on random themes (Tv Stations, beauty contest persons) the pattern definitive fit not to the topics of my articels (military aviation, swiss). It is understandable that many new articels come to AfD, but also this dosent fit here because he nominated just in the past few weeks articels from me who existed since 3-4 years. This is no coincidence.FFA P-16 (talk) 11:50, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

You have already forgotten my talkpage? And take a look at the talkpage of mr. FFA P-16. Not the current version, as he wipes out everything he does not like, but the older versions. Like this one. The Banner talk 13:25, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Well the Talkpage is there for to communicate wit an other user, or inform ihm about something.. I informed you that i wish that you stop follw me. How should I communicate with you without using the talk page. everyone can clean its talkpage like he want.. it is nothing wrong with deleting old stuff and its also not wrong keeping some of it. Also veryon can keep positiv replays on the talk page if he wish. that you are monitoring my talkpage and their history shows again suspicious direction stalking FFA P-16 (talk) 13:40, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

I have informed you about issues with notability, issues with sourcing and issues with your language and all this was ignored. Not even the spell checker you took aboard... The Banner talk 21:56, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Everything probably a reason for an improvement tag but not for AfD, also the one with Bernhard Müller is a good example that your interpretation of notability is also not always correct. And if you posted this on my talk page.There is no need to let it stand there, so I can empty the talk page whenever I want. That is nothing bad.FFA P-16 (talk) 12:04, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

quod erat demonstrandum --MBurch (talk) 22:58, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Alternative proposal

There are several problems, here.

• FFA P-16 has a poor command of the English language, resulting in poorly written articles.
• FFA P-16's love of the Swiss air force leads him to loose sight of notability issues.
• The Banner has been hounding FFA P-16, nominating nearly every article FFA P-16 started.
• The Banner has a tendency to skip due diligence before nominating FFA P-16's articles. Case in point Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Bernhard Müller (Officer).

The drama has been going on at least two years. This has to end.

A proposed solution:

1. FFA P-16 is only allowed to create new articles via the AfC-process. This will address the language and notability problems.
2. An interaction ban between The Banner and FF P-16 (both ways). This includes a ban for The Banner to nominate any article created by FFA P-16, thus eliminating 90% of the drama. If The Banner feels one of FFA P-16's articles is so bad it must be nominated, he can alert another editor to the problem, who can then nominate it.

Kleuske (talk) 11:30, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

P.S. I volunteer my time to a) check any of FFA P-16's articles and b) look at any problem The Banner sees with any of FFA P-16's articles and nominate if necessary. Kleuske (talk) 11:46, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

RXX-7979Ⅲ and historical deletionism

RXX-7979Ⅲ (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Statue of Peace (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

User has already been blocked once for whitewashing Japanese war crimes at Statue of Peace. While he was away, the IP address 210.142.104.167 spoke remarkably similarly at Talk:Statue_of_Peace#Wartime_Comfort_Women_by_Ministry_of_Foreign_Affairs_of_Japan. 210.142 said "Misplaced Pages must not be politically used by activists" as if Jim1138 and I (two Americans with no relationship to Korea) were political activists, which is certainly in the lead the most ironic hypocrisy I've ever seen this year. Upon RXX's return, they continued their usual behavior.

If you look at that talk page section, you'll find a pretty clear case of a user whose only purpose is to "correct" our "imbalanced" article through historical denialism.

Ian.thomson (talk) 10:17, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

It is not the same person. I show evidence for editing.--RXX-7979Ⅲ (talk) 10:19, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

The editor behind the 210.142 IP addresses writes like you, argues for the same ideas, is active in the same location as you, and is only active when you are logged out. Ian.thomson (talk) 10:26, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

It is not the same person. I will ask you not to block while continuing the discussion.--RXX-7979Ⅲ (talk) 10:29, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Saying "it is not the same person" a second time is not proof. The reason I started this thread is because you've shown that there's no point in discussion -- you are not going to listen because you have locked yourself in a far-right nationalist echo chamber that denies what many Japanese historians and the rest of the world acknowledges. Ian.thomson (talk) 10:33, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Would it be premature to call for a topic ban against such revisionism? El_C 22:13, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

I would suggest a WP:Checkuser. I support either a topic ban on Japanese war crimes or an indefinite block. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 08:41, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

AFAIK, CU doesn't/can't work on IP addressess. Per beans, its all rather mysterious what they will and will not do. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 14:30, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

It's an issue with privacy more than anything; CUs won't out a user's IP unless the abuse is particularly egregious. —Jeremy v^_^v 00:02, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

• Topic ban. Having read the discussion at Talk:Statue of Peace#Wartime Comfort Women by Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Japan I support a topic ban. As scope I suggest maybe Japanese history (broadly construed) - going for "Japanese war crimes" is something they might not properly comprehend as they appear to be a war crimes denialist, and Japanese history is open to far less interpretation. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:13, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
• TB 1 month for Japanese History and 2 for Japanese war crimes, serve consecutively. Failure to adhere to one can result in an extension of the other or a block. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 14:26, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
• support TBAN ≈ (not timed out, just plain old TBAN) after having read the talk page. One very clear POV and no sign of relenting or addressing NPOV policy. Jytdog (talk) 20:17, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Editing behavior of Robert Walker

Robertinventor (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

The editing behavior of Robertinventor, aka Robert Walker, is disruptive:

Robert Walker changes his own old post materially, after someone has replied, a violation of WP:TALK guidelines. For evidence: this on RSN. This was after I reminded him to not do so. This is not a new issue with RW, but one raised in past such as in an ANI review of Robert Walker's disruptive behavior, a review that ultimately concluded with a topic ban on RW. Admin Bishonen had observed and cautioned Robert Walker to read WP:REDACT, on May 7 2016, advising, "It's a bad idea to change your posts after they have been answered, as this wrongfoots the people who have answered." Robert Walker's editing, after the ban expired, has ignored this.

Robert Walker has repeatedly cast aspersions on Joshua Jonathan and I, without providing evidence and editing diffs. For example, with this, he falsely alleged, "You and Joshua Jonathan often revert edits on the basis that they are only cited to Buddhist scholars". No evidence provided. See the WP:DRN, Talk:Four Noble Truths, and Talk:WikiProject Buddhism for more examples.

The walls of post by Robert Walker (1, 2, 3, 4, 5), (Replaced with: recent evidence in Robert Walker and the WP:WALLOFTEXT section below) with the above two behavioral issues make the situation worse. FWIW, I was recently requested by admin RegentsPark to help in the dispute between Joshua Jonathan and Robert Walker, but RW's behavior is too disruptive to allow progress.

Seeking an appropriate administrative action on RW's editing privileges or warning to User:Robertinventor, User:Robert Walker and linked disclosed accounts. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 15:45, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

@Ms Sarah Welch: I've already said, I'm sorry for suggesting that you do edit reverts of posts of that type. @Joshua Jonathan: does and conversation about it here: but you don't. It was a one off mistake in a passage where I was talking about how you and @Joshua Jonathan: both have a similar view on WP:RS and I inadvertently types that you do edit reverts. I have never said that about you before and it was a mistake. As for the rest, I do sometimes say too much, but it's not intentionally disruptive and it is too late to remove that post from the RSN. If only you and @Joshua Jonathan: would give me a friendly warning first, and there is no need to take me to WP:ANI just because I've been verbose again. I've never had any warnings of that nature from either of you. I am doing my best. I take wikibreaks as soon as I spot I'm being over verbose. My "walls of text" are not meant as fillibustering either, they are all carefully worded and thought out and the intent is to help not to disrupt processes here. I also said sorry about editing the RSN post after there were replies and said how it happened . Robert Walker (talk) 19:29, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

• Robert Walker: Not true. This is not the first time. You do it again, and again, and again, and again, and again. You apologized earlier too, but didn't change your ways. You promise to reply to my request for evidence, but you don't. You do so even after my repeated requests. Not just I, others such as RegentsPark has asked you to give specifics and evidence last week.

You re-instated your "change of older version of your post" twice (1, 2) twenty minutes "after" I requested to stop changing your previous edits. As admin Bishonen warned you in 2016, you have done this before, and you apologized then too. Yet you keep doing it, any way. You seem to have no respect for the integrity of a discussion, or how your back-editing leaves a misleading impression to the replies of other people, on others who join the discussion later. Your back-changing your posts, after someone has already replied, robs the context of their replies and make the other editors look unreasonable. You are very disruptive. You walls of post, rapid pace of endless editing the same talk pages 100s of times within a week is not helpful to collaboration. I suggest a 1 year ban, or at least a last warning to you, for the following: no back editing "anything" in your non-threaded section, or in any threaded discussion, after someone has replied; you provide edit diff or evidence in reliable sources, for any allegation you make. Any future failure should be grounds for sanctions. I am open to any alternate measures admins suggest based on their experience. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 20:10, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

• Robert Walker: You apologized above at 19:29, 30 April 2017. Yet, at 19:42, 30 April 2017 you do it again, with the allegation, "Especially since Joshua Jonathan and Ms Sarah Welch often explain to other editors including myself that they are not secondary sources." No diffs, no evidence. The casting aspersions without evidence by Robert Walker seems to never end. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 20:16, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

I only saw your message on my talk page AFTER I did those additional edits of the RSN post. I had no idea that editing a user page in my own user space would be seen as disruptive. With the Four Noble Truths talk page, most of my edits are minor edits, and they were of comments that nobody had replied to. Nobody has warned me that I shouldn't do minor edits after I have posted a post there and before they are replied to. They are usually copy editing for clarity and don't change the essential meaning of what I say. I no longer edit my posts after they are replied to in threaded discourse, or I mark such edits with underlines and strikethroughs as recommended. This is the first warning I've had about editing a post when there is a threaded discourse going on in a separate section. I do understand the reason, and I won't do it again when the sections are related as these were. And - you did collapse my first post there for several months a short while back. And @Joshua Jonathan: did delete that post too. Those are WP:TPOs. Neither of you have apologized for doing that yet. Robert Walker (talk) 20:30, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

• Robert Walker: Not true. You allege above, again without evidence, that "I had no idea that editing a user page in my own user space would be seen as disruptive." If you had provided an "edit diff", admins would see that it was not your user space, it was "Reliable sources/Noticeboard" where you back-edited. WP:RSN is not your user space. If after your zillion edits, past admin warnings and reminders for "no back editing", past admin sanctions and blocks, you still are back editing on notice boards and dispute forums, there is a pattern of serious behavioral issues with your editing. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 20:44, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

I put a lot of thought and care into my posts here. The numerous minor edits are part of that. It is not meant disruptively. The only reason I do this is to make the posts easier to read, to shorten them (as I tend to be verbose) and copy edit them. And in that RSN discussion you said that my post was inappropriate for the RSN. I answered explaining why it was appropriate and said I'd edit my post to make it clear why I had posted there. I had no idea at the time that to do so would be seen as disruptive. As soon as you pointed it out I realized what you meant - I should have just done a strikeout of the entire paragraph and added a replacement paragraph. But of course it was too late after I saw your message on my talk page, which I only saw AFTER I finished the copy editing to make it clearer why I posted there. The conversation is here . Robert Walker (talk) 21:06, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Regarding Robert's statement "Neither of you have apologized for doing that yet": I did apologize. Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive951#Request for renewed topic-ban: "Anyway, I apologize; I reacted on impulse, as I just had enough of it." Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 21:23, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Oh, I missed that. Thanks for the apology! Robert Walker (talk) 21:33, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

• Robert Walker: Not true again. You back-changed your edits at least thrice, just today. Here is your first back-change. After you did this, I reverted you with the edit summary "please do not change your old posts/talk page comments after someone has replied". Here is your second second back-change which reverted my revert. Then you went ahead one more time, ignored my explicit request on your talk page not to keep back-editing. You thereafter did the third back-change, not seconds after, but a while later. Please note that the change was not about "explaining why it was appropriate and said I'd edit my post to make it clear why I had posted there". You changed your post materially, with back-edits where you change your allegations against Joshua Jonathan or I, as amply evidenced in that diff.

So, we are not talking about simple explanation added, or indent, for format change, or spelling/grammar fix, or simple stuff that doesn't change the meaning of your post. You change the context and your allegations after someone has already replied. The problem is that this is not a new behavioral issue. You have done it in past when Bishonen warned you. Yet you keep doing it again. The walls of text, and "allegations without evidence" issue is worse disruption by you. You apologized above, yet did it again a while later, as evidenced by the links above. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 21:58, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

@Ms Sarah Welch: Oh I see, that was you? I do remember during that editing that I pressed submit, but when I went to edit the page again, it still showed the old version. I did not think of the possibility that someone else had edited my comment - which of course I now understand you did because you had a right to do so. I assumed that something had gone wrong at my end. That's why I didn't think to check the editing history and just did the edit again. In that case, yes of course, it was of course a material change but I didn't at the time realize the rule applied, in the midst of that conversation. I did say at the end of my rewrite "(edited after discussion with @Ms Sarah Welch: below.)"

Now I do understand, that if an editor challenges a post you make to a board, saying they don't know why you posted, or any similar situation, yes of course you have to keep the original challenged post on the board and strike it out and then add the new amended post beneath with underlines to show it is new content, so that their comment challenging your post has content. I can go and edit it and insert the old material with strike through and underline the new material if that was acceptable. But at this stage that might of itself count as back editing because other editors have now responded to the edited post. So I don't think there is much I can do except to say sorry as I did and that I'll take care not to do it again. I did add at the end (as edited )Robert Walker (talk) 10:38, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

• Ms Sarah Welch, your items in #3 are mostly months to years old (some are 4 years old), so please strike the entirety of 3#. That done, what we apparently have left is RW's re-factoring of his posts. I suggest a prohibition on refactoring talkpage posts. Robertinventor, prepare your posts in your sandbox first, and perfect them as to what you really and clearly and succinctly want to say. Then post them on article talk and do not alter them after posting. Softlavender (talk) 13:23, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

• Agreed that links in #3 are old, but that does not mean RW's wall of texts is not a continuing issue. It is a long standing issue, that editors uninvolved in Buddhism article space have recently expressed their concerns / frustration on. Would you be okay if I struck the old links and replaced them with links from recent weeks from WP:DRN, WP:RSN etc? I also request admin review of #2, because casting aspersions without evidence by RW is a persistent problem? I have given recent links above, and can provide more. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 13:41, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

• There are no aspersions in your #2 listing, only a neutral and neutrally worded observation (whether it is mistaken or not is not relevant). In terms of walls of text, I suggest that any examples should be after April 15, 2017, which is when the last ANI report ended: . Also, for any example for any problem, you need to provide diffs, not pages, and the diffs need to be of his edits, not yours. Softlavender (talk) 14:00, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

• Softlavender: Strange. Why April 15? I appreciate your comments that you make as another volunteer and non-admin, and we all need to respect wikipedia's guidelines. Is there an Arb committee or other resolution that somehow statutorily exempts RW's behavior because he was a part of some other ANI case?

On #2, FWIW, here are the Arb Committee resolutions on casting aspersions (trimmed for brevity, full version here):

Passed 10 to 0 at 23:51, 22 December 2008 (UTC): It is unacceptable for an editor to continually accuse another of egregious misbehavior in an attempt to besmirch his or her reputation.

Passed 10 to 0 at 04:10, 1 July 2009 (UTC): It is unacceptable for an editor to routinely accuse others of misbehavior without reasonable cause.

Passed 7 to 0, 22:45, 13 August 2013 (UTC): An editor must not accuse another of misbehavior without evidence, especially when the accusations are repeated or severe.

For #2, I have already provided multiple evidentiary links above of repeated accusations by RW without evidence, against me, where these apply. FWIW, RW has accepted that he has accused me without evidence, then at 15:07, 30 April 2017 he retracted his accusation where he admitted, "As far as I know, you don't". But, hours later, at 19:42, 30 April 2017, RW accused again without evidence, "Especially since Joshua Jonathan and Ms Sarah Welch often explain to other editors including myself that they are not secondary sources." RW's accusations that I commonly revert proper content, delete reliable secondary sources, etc is an accusation of misbehavior. Such accusations are a repetitive RW behavior. I urge that these past Arb committee's resolutions on casting aspersions be considered in this case as they are relevant. They are common sense, humane principles, necessary for any healthy working/volunteer environment, in my humble view. To be clear, I am not asking for indef ban on RW for this, but a prohibition, or other limited sanction on his editing privileges as a corrective measure.

I agree with you, Softlavender, that for #3 problem, I need to "provide diffs, not pages, and the diffs need to be of his edits", not mine from recent weeks. I will do so, and update #3 today. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 14:49, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

@Ms Sarah Welch: I have only once said that you revert edits, which was a mistake, @Joshua Jonathan: does, but you don't. However I did provide a diff for your statements about secondary behaviour; possibly I might have saved it first before adding this.

@Softlavender: - do you say then that it is an issue that I edit my posts after I posted them, when nobody has replied to them yet? Until @Ms Sarah Welch: said about it in this action, nobody has said that this is a problem as far as I remember. My verbosity, yes, and I used to edit posts after they were replied to, until I was told that you can't do that unless you use strikeout and underline. Since then I have been careful to use strikeout and underline. I can compose my posts in my sandbox, yes.

In those edits I'm going by this section of WP:REDACT.

"So long as no one has yet responded to your comment, it's accepted and common practice that you may continue to edit your remarks for a short while to correct mistakes, add links or otherwise improve them. If you've accidentally posted to the wrong page or section or if you've simply changed your mind, it's been only a short while and no one has yet responded, you may remove your comment entirely."

It might be that I haven't understood it properly, or that my interpretation of "a short while" is different from that of other editors. Robert Walker (talk) 15:51, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

RW, there is no way you can "re-revert" my revert of your back-editing accidentally, then preserve it, and add more back-editing for the third time quite a while later (see above for diffs). Complete prohibition on your refactoring/back-editing is the minimum we must do here to address #1. The issue #2 isn't that you alleged something once. The issue is that you repeatedly "accuse without evidence". You apologized. I was willing to forgive you, thinking of dropping the stick and moving on. Yet, you again "accused without evidence" many hours later. This behavior of yours has not stopped, and this is disruptive (see above for diffs). Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 16:29, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

@Ms Sarah Welch: I assure you I had no idea. I composed that text first in a text editor on my computer and copy / pasted it in, used the preview button and then edited it, clicked submit and did more editing. But then I found that it didn't seem to have "stuck" - it still showed the old version. I didn't know why that happened, but I just copy / pasted my version on my computer back in again and clicked submit again. This time it worked. I did not realize that the reason it didn't work the first time was because you had reverted it.

@Softlavender: I've just started using my sandbox for my talk page posts, composed a long comment to @Joshua Jonathan: there first. I think this may be a breakthrough for me. It's amazing that I've been editing here so long and not really properly appreciated the use of the sandbox, you will see from its editing history that I last used it in 2013 and I don't think I have ever used it to draft comments before. . Perhaps someone suggested this to me before but if so I forgot. I did try creating comments in subpages of my user space but that got clumsy plus there's the matter of pings, you don't want to ping someone to a subpage of your user space. I assume that pings don't work from the sandbox? Robert Walker (talk) 16:52, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Robert Walker: The use the sandbox idea, including for drafting, has been suggested to you several times. For example, even during the last AN 2016 case review on you, which led to a six month ban for you a year ago. Back then, you seemed to acknowledge and accept the "draft in sandbox" idea. Yet here we are. Nothing really changed, and the walls of texts and other behavioral issues are back. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 17:06, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Please check my sandbox history. You will see I never used it between 2013 and the present. I have started to use it now and it makes a big difference. I think it will mean an end to this re-editing of posts as my problem always was that I find it awkward to edit my posts in the preview screen and there's the issue of possibly losing data. I may have missed something but I don't remember anyone suggesting this before @Softlavender: and surely I would at least have tested the idea in my sandbox at least once if they had and I'd understood what they were saying. Robert Walker (talk) 20:26, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Robert Walker: I gave you the link above from May 2016, a year ago, which explicitly mentions the "sandboxes" suggestion. Read the whole AN case thread through the close by admin EdJohnston. We went over this, with a lot of effort and numerous members of wikipedia community who tried to help you and offer your constructive suggestions. If you didn't read it, or if you ignored it all then, it is not the community's fault. Because you were a focus of the May 2016 AN review. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 21:10, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Robert, to answer your question, yes, you in particular should refrain from editing your posts once you post them, no matter whether anyone has responded to them or not. If necessary, this may be made into an administrator's official sanction in order to prevent disruption. Softlavender (talk) 00:23, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Robert Walker and the WP:WALLOFTEXT

The walls of text by Robert Walker issue continues, which combined with #1 and #2 issues above have been disruptive. This issue needs to be considered in light of the relevant past, so measures if any proposed and considered, weigh whether and to what extent past measures on Robert Walker's walls of text have helped. The disruption by RW's walls of text was noted for example, during a 2016 AN review process by Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi (), JimRenge (), Robert McClenon , others there, and by the case closing admin EdJohnston ().

Evidence of walls of text from recent weeks include:

• Reliable sources/Noticeboard: 1, 2, others; Number of posts by Robert Walker since 07:33, April 30 2017: 80

• Dispute resolution noticeboard: 3, others, 4, Number of posts by Robert Walker since 08:27, 26 April 2017: dozens, not counted

• Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Buddhism: 5, 6, others, Number of posts by Robert Walker since 22:29, 10 April 2017: 73

Recent comments by other wikipedia editors:

1. RSN volunteer comment: "If neutral sources also discuss the general views of Theravadan Bhikkus, then of course those academic views should be included. The massive walls of text here discouraged me from adding to the discussion earlier. Thus, please note that I'm only adding one view to this very particular usage, and have no time to enter into the meandering philosophical meta discussion above and in the countless linked discussions. First Light (talk) 12:18, 1 May 2017 (UTC)"

1. DRN volunteer comment: "As a side-note, please try to be as concise as possible..That you want to include more non-Western views is not an unreasonable demand. Unfortunately, the fact is that walls of text don't help always and the length and sheer volume of your posts makes it impossible to figure out what exactly you're seeking. Winged Blades Godric 15:34, 29 April 2017 (UTC)"

The above evidence is being submitted per the request of Softlavendar in the section above. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 16:29, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

More Comments, Not Again!

Not again! As the original posters have noted, this has been going on for a year. The subject editor, Robert Walker, has some issue about the articles on Buddhism. I don't entirely understand what the issue is, both because it appears to be something specific to Buddhism that isn't relevant to non-Buddhists, and because the great length and number of the posts are a barrier to understanding. I think that RW is unhappy that the articles were substantially reworked by User:Joshua Jonathan (JJ) and User:Ms Sarah Welch (SW) in 2014, but I am not sure. In any case, the issue of the length and number of his posts has been brought up here in the past, and it appears that it resulted in restrictions being imposed, but they have expired. In any case, an attempt was made to discuss at the dispute resolution noticeboard, but was closed; my own thought there was that RW didn't identify a specific content issue, and DRN is for the discussion of article content issues (not meta-issues or conduct). The issue was then taken to the reliable source noticeboard, which is now being swamped by walls of text, but the issue doesn't seem to have to do with specific sources but a general philosophical complaint about the difference between Western academic sources and traditional Asian sources. It appears that all efforts to get RW to state a concise issue are unsuccessful, and, besides, he apparently can't just post a statement (whether or not a wall of text) without editing it while others (JJ and SW) are responding. I don't see any likelihood of a collaborative solution for an editor who can't take part in collaboration. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:02, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

@Robert McClenon: - for clarity, I did not take it to the DRN. I said on my talk page that I am sure a DRN won't work, having identified what I believe to be the issue, that we have different SUBPOVs here, it's towards the end of this comment . Soon after that, @Joshua Jonathan: took the case to DRN. I never wanted it at DRN, but once there of course I made the best case I could there. Robert Walker (talk) 20:22, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

It isn't important whether RW or JJ took it to DRN. It is important that the length of RW's posts made it impossible for the DRN volunteers to facilitate moderated discussion or to identify what the issues were. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:40, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

The issue of me continually editing my posts should now be solved with @Softlavender:'s suggestion to use my sandbox. I haven't re-edited any post since then after posting, only two posts of any length since then. Please let me use this for a while so you can see that it works, as I am sure it will. Robert Walker (talk) 20:29, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

That is only one part of the problem, and has apparently been proposed and accepted and forgotten in the past. However, the refactoring of talk page posts is only one part of the problem, because the length of the posts is also a problem. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:40, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

That's true. However my editing often reduces the length of posts. I often start with a post that is too verbose, and if I don't get any replies to it, then I am able to trim it down a lot by removing repetition. You should see shorter posts as a result. Also note that @Joshua Jonathan: also often does extremely long posts, he is as verbose as me, or not far off - if I had the opportunity to trim my verbose posts as I will be able to do now, you probably won't see any difference. And my posts throughout are written with great care and thought to present the point as clearly as I can and are never intended to be disruptive. Robert Walker (talk) 20:53, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

If anyone finds that I am saying too much - why not just go to my talk page and say "Look you have said a bit too much in that conversation, why not take a wikibreak for a day or two?" That is what I do when I spot that I've been too verbose myself. Why take me to ANI just to tell me that I've been too verbose again, and try to get me topic banned for it?

User:Robertinventor - The problem is, first, telling you that your posts are too long simply results in a reply, which is more words, and, second, telling you to take a break is a little late after your overly lengthy post has made concise discussion impossible. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:06, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

@Robert McClenon: To reply to your earlier comment, the essential point is that these articles do not present the views of sutra tradition Buddhists. Just as Christians believe in the Resurrection of Jesus - sutra tradition Buddhists believe that Buddha became enlightened as a young man aged 30 and at that point he was already free of the unsatisfactoriness of suffering, old age, sickness and death, even though he went on to become old, sick and die. I have given plenty of cites to WP:RS in sutra tradition Buddhism, but these are not accepted as proving the case because they are written by Buddhists! This is one of many issues with these articles but one of the most striking, It's like coming across an article about Christianity that doesn't explain that Christians believe in resurrection. It's a simple point. @Joshua Jonathan: and @Ms Sarah Welch: complicate the discussion every time I mention this by saying that Buddha said it was his last rebirth, which is true. But that is not what enlightenment means to Buddhists, it means this cessation of dukkha which in the case of Buddha he realized as a young man. So the main issue can be stated concisely. There are many other issues of a similar nature in the articles. So, the problem I have is not so much stating the issues, as in convincing editors here who are unfamiliar with sutra tradition Buddhists that this is what Buddhist believe. It is tough to do this against all the claims of the opposing editors that we do not have this belief. As for the reliable sources, my "Four Noble Truths" colour coded by the sources shows how the new version relies almost entirely on western sources such as Anderson for nearly every sentence in the lede. This is why it is essential to establish that it is okay to use the traditional Buddhist sources to describe the beliefs of sutra tradition Buddhists. @Dorje108: agrees that they are POV and he is the only other sutra tradition Buddhist to comment on the dispute. See . As for my decision to take it to the RSN, that was the recommendation of @Winged Blades of Godric:. He made this recommendation as one of two possibilities when I closed the dispute. . I have never taken a case to the RSN before and was unfamiliar with how it works and I didn't use their recommended format of Article, Content and Source as three bullet points and wrote too much. If I'd known how it worked, I'd have written my post like that right away, and it could have saved a lot of unnecessary meta discussion. Incidentally I composed this reply in my sandbox as you can check easily. So far I have saved 11 minor edits on the talk pages by using the sandbox. This is going to make a huge difference to those issues. Robert Walker (talk) 20:55, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

• Robert McClenon: I concur with rest of your observations, except one detail. I should set the record straight on that, to avoid giving an impression that Joshua Jonathan and I have been "team editing" the affected articles since 2014. The credit for the improvements to Four Noble Truths etc articles in 2014 and 2015 do not belong to me, it belongs to others including Joshua Jonathan. My first edit to Four Noble Truths article was on 29 April 2016, after being invited to review the article earlier about a year ago because of a dispute which included RW and JJ. In other words, JJ and I haven't been working together on the disputed articles since 2014. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 20:57, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

@Robert McClenon: - when has telling me that my posts are too long lead to more replies? Except here of course, where you say that I will be topic banned from the Buddhism topic area for six months in which case of course I need to reply. But has anyone ever said this on my talk page? Or suggested I take a wikibreak because I'm being too verbose? I don't know of any examples. Whenever they think I am being too verbose, they take me straight to WP:ANI and the first I hear of it is a post on my talk page saying I have an action against me here. Robert Walker (talk) 21:14, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Specific Unpleasant Remedy, Topic-Ban

Since all efforts both by JJ and SW and by uninvolved administrators and editors to get the issue defined concisely have failed, I find it necessary to propose that Robert Walker be topic-banned from all posts about Buddhism, broadly defined, for six months. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:02, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

• Support I've been looking over the discussion both here as well as on WP:RSN and agree that this is the only way forward. Robert Walker needs to learn the difference between primary sources and secondary sources, the importance of an orderly discussion, the importance of focused suggestions, as well as the disruptive nature of walls of text that are being constantly edited and re-edited. At the same time, I feel that they are acting in good faith. Perhaps a topic area in which they are not so deeply invested will help them learn the way of the wiki. I'd prefer to see some evidence outside Buddhism that they can edit meaningfully before a topic ban is lifted so would also support an indef topic ban with the possibility of applying for its removal after six months. --regentspark (comment) 21:01, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

@RegentsPark: You don't need proof that I can edit meaningfully here as I edit in many areas. I wrote about half of the article Planetary protection - and ditto for Interplanetary contamination. I wrote Present day Mars habitability analogue environments on Earth recently. Also Modern Mars habitability recently. Both of those are almost entirely my work. So is the Hexany article. I have many contributions here also in the articles on microtonal music and I do many minor edits throughout wikipedia adding content. This dispute has rather distracted me away from that activity, which is what I normally do here. This whole thing started in 2014 when @Joshua Jonathan: rewrote what I considered to be some of the best articles in wikipedia, such as @Dorje108:'s original article on Karma in Buddhism, which had been in a mature state for a long time. I wanted to do something about this as a reader who admired his work on those articles, which represented a complex and intricate subject with careful use of what we regard as the WP:RS in the Buddhism topic area as sutra tradition Buddhists. Robert Walker (talk) 21:23, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Robert, I was hoping it wouldn't come to this, but the walls of text, the refactoring, etc. makes it hard to see what else we can do. This is a volunteer effort and it is impractical to expect anyone to read and make sense of what you're getting at. I was hoping you would see that but it doesn't look like that's going to happen. You're way too invested in this topic - work elsewhere for a bit and then let's see. --regentspark (comment) 22:00, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Yes okay. But do you need to topic ban me to say this? Why not just kindly post to my talk page making this suggestion? I am going to take a wikibreak right now. Anyone could have suggested that at any time through these proceedings, and I'd have listened to them, indeed I'd have paid very careful attention to anyone who had made that suggestion. They didn't need to take me to WP:ANI. Just say that my verbosity was a problem again. That would have been enough. Robert Walker (talk) 22:38, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

No. No. We have said that your verbosity is a problem many times, and you have acknowledged it, but that hasn't changed anything. It apparently is necessary to impose some sort of sanctions on you. You say that you need to be told to take a wikibreak. Okay, but - There is a type of editor in Misplaced Pages, of whom you are not the only one, who is passive-aggressive, who edits tendentiously in some way or other, and then, when brought up to this noticeboard, says that they plan to take a wikibreak, sometimes a long wikibreak. This does stop whatever the problem is for a while, but, after the break, they come back, and the disruptive behavior resumes, and the slate was swept clean because the community thought, in good faith, that the problem was solved, which it was, for a little while. Yes, apparently we have to take action anyway, rather than just delaying a decision until you come back and your verbosity is a problem again. I know that you mean well, but that doesn't make you a constructive editor in the long run. Yes, something has to be done other than just delaying a decision until your wikibreak is over. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:00, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Robert McClenon is spot on. Look at the links above, RW. The DRN volunteer mentioned your wall of text is a problem. The RSN volunteer said the same. I said the same. RegentsPark appealed to you last week about it (again all this is linked above, in some cases with quotes). The wikipedia community is here to contribute to building a free and ever-improving encyclopedia that is available to every poor or rich fellow human being with an access to the web. It is not here to endlessly deal with your or similar disruptive behavior. We are well past the stage of cautioning, pleading, suggesting, rinsing and repeating our suggestions to you. Please reflect on the fact that you, RW, have been through this cycle before in 2016. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 23:40, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

• Support Robert McClenon got it right: RW is unhappy with the fact that "Karma in Buddhism" and "Four Noble Truths" were reworked (thanks for the honours, MSW). Robert admits this himself: "This whole thing started in 2014 when @Joshua Jonathan: rewrote what I considered to be some of the best articles in wikipedia." This rewriting was not just about primary and secondary sources, it was about WP:RS, WP:QUOTEFARM, WP:OR, WP:SYNTHESIS, WP:UNDUE, WP:NPOV, WP:CHERRYPICKING, and WP:RNPOV, as explained in every minute detail at the talkpages and notice-boards. I've been interacting with him now for 2,5 years; while others can summarize in a few lines what those policies imply and move on, RW is still trying to figure out what the first policy mentioned here means, nay, how he can bend it to get what he wants. So, how long will it take him to understand this first policy, let alone the rest? The Four Noble Truths article is now stuffed with references, from both Buddhists and academich scholars, and complete subsections, which answer Robert's concerns (neat summary). I've also made changes in response to the concrete suggestions he made (another neat overview). To no avail: Robert wants his preferred versions back. No arguments will help here. Despite all the explanations about this, for Robert it comes down to "I don't like it, because it does not reflect my pov." So, yes, I support a topic-ban; I've wasted so incredibly many hours on this yet, that a break is very welcome. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:11, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

• Support-Echo RegentsPark word by word.Winged Blades 07:02, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

High school redirections by Alexander Iskandar

This editor has unilaterally redirected a large number of high school articles without prior discussion. Now, most of these do have deficiencies in sourcing, and indeed may not be notable, but there appears to have been no real effort to find sources and, at a minimum content should have been merged rather than a straight redirect. Though I could revert these changes that way lies edit warring and I should welcome a broader discussion. I have also notified Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Schools. Just Chilling (talk) 16:18, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

It's important to pay attention to messages in your talk page, folks! Anyway he should state why he is redirecting them so we can find ways of rectifying the problems. WhisperToMe (talk) 19:47, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

• It looks like his intentions are good, but all the same this is highly disruptive. You can't just go around mass-blanking articles, especially in a unique subject area that is usually included by default. The redirections should probably be undone, and I've warned this user that they're dangerously close to a block. Unfortunately, they don't appear to be a very communicative person, so I'm prepared to block if they don't heed the warning. Swarm ♠ 16:49, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Tenebrae and WP:DISRUPT

• Tenebrae (t · th · c · del · cross-wiki · SUL · edit counter · pages created (xtools · sigma) · non-automated edits · BLP edits · undos · manual reverts · rollbacks · logs · rfar · spi · cci) (assign permissions)

Lately, Tenebrae has shown a WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality when it comes to RuPaul's Drag Race and the corresponding season articles. A consensus was reached that we would use the show as a primary source for the progress of the contestants (similar to Project_Runway_(season_14) & Big_Brother_18_(U.S.)). Tenebrae refuses to have any of it. Here is a list of his edits saying that he is restoring the status quo while he filibusters everyone to death because he is the only editor who isn't getting his way:

• , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ...ad infinitum.

Then there was a RfC opened which was immediately one-sided. And multiple attempts by users to call for it to be closed since consensus was quickly reached again . Tenebrae then took it upon himself to gaslight and bring up the actions of opposing editors as a red herring . He has also shown that he believes he is better than others due to his time on the wiki and his arbitrarily inflated edit count. .

I want Tenebrae blocked for disruptive editing, topic banned from anything Rupaul related, and banned from opening RfCs. This user will show up here and point out what other editors are doing and repeat the same nonsensical verbiage about secondary POV pushing or whatever. nihlus kryik (talk) 00:11, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

I am very close to blocking you for your edit summary and behavior at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Requests for closure --NeilN 00:13, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

This is the place to discuss Tenebrae's actions. If you want to discuss mine, you should open another topic. However, you are WP:INVOLVED due to my questioning of your administrative actions before, so I highly suggest you recuse yourself from participating. Also, there was no problematic edit summary on that page, so please be more specific in the future. nihlus kryik (talk) 00:19, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

See WP:BOOMERANG. And questioning my admin actions does not make me involved. Lastly, gtfo is not acceptable here. --NeilN 00:24, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

I'm not even sure how to respond to User:Nihlus Kryik. Except for himself and one other editor who have been uncivil and/or have been name-calling at Talk:RuPaul's Drag Race#Request for comment, all the other editors have been discussing the WP:VERIFY / WP:PRIMARYSOURCE issue reasonably and collegially. As is not surprising, there is no consensus there after just two days. I'm not sure why he would throw in irrelevant comments about edit-count. I also don't know how to respond to a new editor who has attempted to edit others' talk-page posts and even an admin's post at ANI.--Tenebrae (talk) 00:29, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Look, the editor who I said would only talk about what others are doing is only talking about what others are doing! nihlus kryik (talk) 00:33, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

I agree that that comment was uncivil, but it's a favorite initialism of mine. nihlus kryik (talk) 00:33, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

I would also note User:Nihlus Kryik is WP:CANVASSING editors he believes disagrees with me to come to this ANI, and is not contacting those who agree with me. See his contributions notifying only Obsidi ‎and Anonymous5454 ‎but not Brocicle or Trooper1005, for example. --Tenebrae (talk) 00:35, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

More about what others are doing and no comment about his own actions. Surprising... I notified the users who believe you have been disruptive. It has nothing to do with agreeing with you. Feel free to notify anyone else. I don't care. nihlus kryik (talk) 00:36, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

You need to care as your actions are against guidelines. --NeilN 00:41, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

And yet here you are derailing another topic. As I said, if there are concerns about my edits, feel free to open another topic, but being disruptive here is not going to get anything done. nihlus kryik (talk) 00:42, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

That's not how ANI works. The actions of all editors involved in a situation are examined. --NeilN 00:45, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

And in fact, I do need to point out another false comment by Nihlus Kryik, that he "notified the users who believe you have been disruptive" (as if that excuses canvassing). If one does a search for the word "disrupt" at the RfC, Nihlus Kryik is, in fact, the only one who has used it against me. Not only did User:Obsidi never say I was disruptive, he in fact tempered his opposite position to mine with nuanced comments about WP:PRIMARYSOURCE. --Tenebrae (talk) 00:45, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

(ec x3) Please bear in mind, that when you bring an issue to AN/I, your own actions are taken into consideration too. As Neil has stated, your actions, ESPECIALLY refactoring someone's comments on AN, are against our guidelines. WP:BOOMERANG exists for a reason, and you may need to be mindful of this. RickinBaltimore (talk) 00:47, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

I didn't refactor someone's comments. I nowiki'd a template to prevent the bot from archiving. There is a massive difference and I am tired of being accused of something different. nihlus kryik (talk) 00:49, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Seriously? You modified an admin's decision three times. --NeilN 00:51, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

I did not modify a decision. I put nowiki brackets around a template to stop the bot from archiving. Why is that so difficult for you to understand? nihlus kryik (talk) 00:51, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

The admin closed the discussion. It should have been archived. --NeilN 00:53, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

The closed it because Tenebrae showed up and derailed the conversation, like you are doing here. nihlus kryik (talk) 00:54, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

So you admit you negated the decision because you didn't like it. --NeilN 00:56, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

No, because it made no mention of the closure request and purely focused on the disruptive edits by Tenebrae. nihlus kryik (talk) 00:58, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

I closed it because it was clear that the ongoing dispute from the article's talk page had spilled over to WP:AN/RFC and was likely to continue there unless halted by a third party. It had all the appearance of a WP:OTHERPARENT thread; of the twenty edits prior to my closure, all edits were to the same thread and were by three people, all of whom were disputants in the RfC proper; and yes, although Tenebrae did make the most edits in the block that I hatted, it was clear to me that Nihlus Kryik was not going to let it lie and the dispute could have continued for much longer. So my closure was a response to the actions of others besides Tenebrae. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 08:25, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

And while you all were worried about me, Tenebrae has continued his battleground editing. nihlus kryik (talk) 00:54, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

I haven't had any involvement in this controversy until now. I will only comment that the conduct of User:Nihlus Kryik is one of the most flagrant examples of self-defeating conduct at this noticeboard that I have seen, but apparently User:Nihlus Kryik really doesn't understand that the filing party's conduct really is also scrutinized at this noticeboard, and apparently doesn't understand that insulting of administrators isn't a good idea. (It is true that a few other disruptive editors have deliberately insulted administrators in order to be able to argue that the administrator was involved and thus disqualified. That approach doesn't work, and sometimes results in a site ban. User:Nihlus Kryik - Stop being your own worst enemy. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:20, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Concur with Robert McClenon. Regardless of the merits of the dispute, Nihlus Kryik is ensuring their complaint fails. As already said by others, editors need to expect their behaviour to be scrutinised at ANI when they are complaining about someone else in a dispute which the complainant is also involved in. Telling people to open a new thread because this one is only about the other person's behaviour is nearly always counterproductive. Still a single mistake may be ignored. However if someone keeps on insisting people aren't allowed to comment in their behaviour and goes as far as to show further bad behaviour here at ANI, many people aren't even likely to look into the complaint. The behaviour makes people think there is no merit to it. Nil Einne (talk) 02:36, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Then you simply aren't doing your jobs if you think it is perfectly okay to ignore a complaint due to the complainer's actions. nihlus kryik (talk) 02:45, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

FYI Nil Einne and Robert aren't admins. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 02:57, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

The problem you face, Nihlus Kryik, is that your own statements draw attention to your behavior. You state that consensus was reached to "use the show as a primary source for the progress of the contestants". But the discussion you linked to has "YES, RELIABLE SECONDARY SOURCES CAN BE USED FOR HIGH/LOW MARKS" as its close. Tenebrae's second RFC then involved primary sources. You declared consensus had been reached after two days and tried to have the discussion closed. Obviously any editor disagreeing with you in the RFC is going to object to you doing this. You labelled them disruptive editors and when another admin declined to close, you refused to accept that and tried to keep the close request open three times. You even went to another admin's page demanding they explain why they reverted your disruptive changes. Finally, you came here, accused Tenebrae of disruptive editing, canvassed, and seemed upset when they defended themselves. --NeilN 03:46, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

From what I've seen, both of their behavior (Nihlus Kryik and Tenebrae) have been very poor in this area. Nihlus Kryik's been pushing what the consensus is far more expansively then can reasonably be claimed, and Tenebrae's been fighting every inch even when many editors disagree with him. Both have been having very WP:Battleground kind of mentality. Having both together have made the editing far more contentious then it should have been. I know Nihlus has made some poor decisions, but we should look at all the editors behaviors involved here not just Nihlus. I would suggest both Nihlus and Tenebrae be topic banned from the RuPaul's Drag Race pages. -Obsidi (talk) 04:33, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

@Obsidi: Can you provide some diffs to show Tenebrae is editing against consensus? --NeilN 04:37, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

I know this is isn't the place but this really needs to be resovled but do we use reliable secondary sources to source the progress tables of previous seasons? I feel like no one's really given a straight forward answer to the question that started all of this. Brocicle (talk) 05:38, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

See ] @Nihlus Kryik:, I see that you had an old account with multiple blocks. What is the name of your old account? Doug Weller talk 10:39, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

We just finished a RfC in which it was disputed if even secondary sources which directly supported if a contestant was High/Low could be used. And now Tenebrae's started a second RfC in which the question is if edits that are “subjective” can rely upon a primary source. And he has edit wared (although not breaking 3RR), to keep the all edits on High/Low marks out of the article during this second RfC (, , , , ). Let’s assume that by subjective he means inferences or conclusions and RfC properly resolves that such things cannot be used. That still doesn’t answer the question as to if any of the edits removed are actually “subjective” and as such he is removing edits which are not going to be resolved by the RfC on the basis of the RfC’s existence. And so even once the RfC resolves (which he is insisting on waiting the full 30 days) there are going to be further disputes on the subjectivitiness of the edits he is currently removing. That’s at least one more 30 day RfC just waiting to happen. And so we got to ask, at what point will the vast majority of editors actually be able to change the text as they think is appropriate? To me it just seems to be repeated stonewalling not based on any explicit reason as to why any given episode is subjective, but a blanket statement that isn’t true for all cases, for the purpose of not having High/Low marks in the article. And instead is going to wait 30 days for one RfC, then 30 days for another, and then 30 days for another, etc… It isn’t good behavior, imo, but it wasn’t bad enough for me to have personally brought him to ANI yet (and I’m not going to talk about behavior of editors outside of that context).-Obsidi (talk) 18:48, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

@Obsidi: Pointing out that consensus is being misused and opposing editors gas-lighting by willfully ignoring consensus, even denying it exists (essentially lying), is not battleground behavior. It's rare, but sometimes everyone else is wrong and sometimes there is a cabal.--v/r - TP 14:32, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

I don't care if he is pointing out that he doesn't believe there is a consensus if that is a good faith belief. I wouldn't refer to what the other editor was doing as explicitly lying or gaslighting, merely disagreeemnt as to the consensus. No my problems are diffrent than just that. -Obsidi (talk) 18:48, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Claiming that a consensus exists about primary sources when the consensus is about secondary sources is straight up lying. Disruptively hounding an editor that they are wrong when, in very plain text, they are correct is gaslighting. My description is accurate.--v/r - TP 19:14, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

The RfC was about secondary sources (not primary sources), that doesn't mean there wasn't a consensus in favor of using primary sources as well (although it had yet to have been established conclusivily by an RfC close so I'm assuming he was refering to a local consensus). -Obsidi (talk) 19:27, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

It should be pointed out that when I came to the discussion about "High"s and "Low"s originally to give a third opinion, I had no previous connection to the issue at hand. I believe that the issue at hand is misunderstood by many parties and there was a lot of "I like it" voting going on which in my opinion falsely indicated consensus. I took the time to research the matter and to be fair, it's major muddy water territory. Judge ratings being different to table entries, secondary sources that only back up one episode for the table entries and it's strictly up to viewer interpretation to extrapolate the final result for these tables from the primary source for all of the episodes involved. So you can see why people are getting frustrated at each other and ending up accusing each other of misconduct. The editor who closed the original decision didn't look at the core issues at great enough detail so any apparent consensus was tilted heavily towards the "I like it" votes that saturated the discussion. I don't think that any editor (including Nihlus Kryik) taking part in that discussion should have action taken against them but the issue that this complaint stems from (about Highs and Lows) needs a decisive answer from an uninvolved editor and I'm too involved with the issue to do that now. Thank you. -=Troop=- (talk) 18:05, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

(non admin comment) I would be interested to know why Nihlus was so concerned about the block of user F0rmation122. Thanks, —░]PaleoNeonate█ ⏎ ?ERROR░ 15:40, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Originally I assumed it was because he lost some sort of "ally". That set of articles has editors with odd editing histories and I included Nihlus in with them. Doug Weller's comment above makes the situation have a lot more sense now. --NeilN 19:10, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

I suspected a possible sock, but it's all for the better if I'm mistaken. Thanks, —░]PaleoNeonate█ ⏎ ?ERROR░ 19:36, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

I stated I didn't think it was a "new" editor, hence either a sock of someone or avoiding scrutiny. --NeilN 19:52, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

@NeilN: Or a perfectly proper WP:CLEANSTART, merely not being a "new" editor doesn't mean something neferious neccessarily. -Obsidi (talk) 20:04, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

"Certain articles and topics are particularly contentious, and have attracted additional community scrutiny in the form of requests for comment, community sanctions, or arbitration cases. These areas should be completely avoided by the editor attempting a clean start" Not exactly a perfectly proper WP:CLEANSTART. --NeilN 20:10, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

RuPaul's Drag Race isn't usually what I would consider a "articles and topics are particularly contentious" at least usually. Now yes, there is RfCs that started after he started editing on this page, but RfC's happen on all kinds of pages. There is no community sanction or arbitration case involving these pages. -Obsidi (talk) 20:17, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

The RFC was started before their last batch of seven reverts. So we have an editor, making trivial edits to get auto-confirmed, edit warring on content under discussion in an active RFC. Far from a perfectly proper WP:CLEANSTART. --NeilN 20:35, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

• So we have an editor on an effective WP:CLEANSTART, with multiple blocks on their previous account (per Doug Weller above), whose editing under their new account includes disruption, edit-warring and incivility, and who comes to ANI demanding another edit be blocked. Have I summed this up succinctly? Black Kite (talk) 19:18, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

He is clearly on a WP:CLEANSTART, but there is nothing inproper in that. We don't know, yet, if the previous blocks are related to this sitaution, nor any evidence that it was a clean start to evade WP:SCRUTINY. I have no problem with Doug Weller asking for the prior name to make sure the blocks are unrelated to the current situation (or at least a reason for the clean start so we can know if we should confirm that more confidentially). But so far, we should act based on his current behavior (which do seem bad enough for some kind of sanction). -Obsidi (talk) 19:41, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

@Obsidi: Their previous account did not have to be editing in the same or related areas to make their history relevant. We're looking at their behavior. Edit warring, disruption, canvassing, and landing at ANI all within their first ~100 edits. This would probably result in a block if there was past similar history. --NeilN 20:06, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

I didn't say he had to be editing "in the same or related areas to make their history relevant" merely that we don't yet know if his history is relevant. The blocks may be on entirely unrelated issues, we just don't know yet. -Obsidi (talk) 20:17, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

MightyDinoPower15

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The latest problem is repeatedly adding Mary-Kate Olsen to the redirect page Mk.

Reverts by Sundayclose and BilCat.

Unproductive attempts to resolve this particular issue: (Editor has been repeatedly warned for edit warring, generally reverting any changes to their edits and ownership issues. This has included editing while logged out and socking to restore their preferred version. (See Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet_investigations/MightyDinoPower15/Archive.)

OK, so that's a 3RR. However, I believe this is part of a significant a CIR issue.

The editor has an extensive history of ownership issues related to Olsen twin and Star Trek articles.

Edits to their writing are routinely reverted, even for trivial grammatical/punctuation issues.

Warnings/request to discuss the issue are usually blanked, with a note saying the editor does not respond to threats. The user has resorted to legal threats and personal attacks.

Another recurring issue was attempts to keep the new timeline Star Trek films separate from the rest of the Star Trek universe, apparently based on not liking the idea that a character is those films is openly gay.

In short, I think the editor is unable to understand and accept the collaborative nature of Misplaced Pages. - SummerPhD 02:57, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Blocked indefinitely for a second violation of WP:NLT (as well as a host of other reasons). caknuck _° needs to be running more often 07:56, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

They have requested an unblock on their talk page. As I'm involved now, I'm going to defer response to another admin. Thanks, caknuck _° needs to be running more often 08:16, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

• The lawsuit was retracted so unblock me IMO he can chill a few more days/hours until he learns to not go around gaming the system with legal threats. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 14:06, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

That wasn't an actual unblock request (he deleted the block notice), so he's not going to get unblocked. Softlavender (talk) 14:08, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Range block request 2600:8801:118b:dd00:*

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I'm requesting a range block on 2600:8801:118b:dd00:*. This user has been disruptive on cartoon-related pages, specifically by changing dates and adding apparently false info into broadcast lists (e.g., , , ,). EvergreenFir (talk) 05:12, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Blocked 31 hours. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 05:45, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Thank you, as always EvergreenFir (talk) 05:58, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Mass rollback requested

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Please see: Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive952#Copyright violations, disruptive editing

This user is back at Special:Contributions/81.152.80.46 making ducky edits. I blocked for block evasion, can someone please do a mass rollback? I don't have time to do it, or review the edits. Seeing the discussion in the archive, none of these edits are to be trusted. Thank you, BethNaught (talk) 16:16, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

I've got the time, and am on it. Scr★pIron 17:44, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Done! Scr★pIron 17:59, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Thank you. BethNaught (talk) 18:31, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

User:Smart-ass's

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Please can someone lose this account, it is an unsuitable username and going on a spree of disruption.--♦IanMacM♦ 16:54, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

User:This is Paul Uncivil Report

I believe that User:This is Paul has repeatedly acted very uncivilly towards me with no justification.

The issue seemed to begin after I made a single good faith revert in light of guidelines on the matter on which I had previously been uninvolved. My commit and Talk page comment gave my rationale on my actions.

From here I will let the diffs from This is Paul speak for themselves: , , ,

My responses were defensive and sometimes a bit snarky in places, however I believe remained relatively civil considering the responses I was receiving. In the end, I tried to address the issue directly on his talk page

However rather than take the feedback on board, This is Paul instead continued with the behaviour and responded with another personal attack:

I believe that the wiki community has a pillar and consensus that we shouldn’t accept this sort of behaviour, which is the main reason that has lead me to lodge this report. Thank you for your time. Dresken (talk) 20:45, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

While I admit I shouldn't have accused both parties of colluding, I doubt my other comments that day would be construed as uncivil. But if others disagree then I'll accept that they were. Incidentally I wasn't the first to raise the issue of Wikilawyering. The way this user and AlexTheWhovian conducted themselves during the discussions at Talk:Bill Potts and Talk:Bill Potts (Doctor Who) was not in keeping with how we should behave on here. If I'm guilty of anything it was being irritated with the way Alex tried to slap down everyone who opposed the page move, and the intimidating tone he used. But this was all a week ago now, and I thought we'd moved on. As regards the SPI report, both parties behaved in a manner that made me suspect they could be linked, so I filed the report. I'm pleased for all of us that I was wrong, since AlexTheWhovian has some responsibilities, and a yes from the SPI check would have reflected badly on Misplaced Pages. I suggest we all move on. This is Paul (talk) 21:19, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

It can't be nice being accused of sock-/meat-puppetry, but since the case went to SPI and you were exonerated, I think I'd leave it there. If you consider the tone of This is Paul's comments to be so incivil as to require administrator intervention then I think you have a very thin skin. In some of these diffs you might have a point that WP:ASPERSIONS are being cast, but then he took it to SPI along with the evidence he had and it's been dealt with. I'm struggling to see anything else that's a problem in the diffs you've offered. My advice is to let it go. GoldenRing (talk) 05:00, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

I only learnt about the SPI report from This is Paul's response in this thread here - so my lodging this report has nothing to do with that. I lodged the report because there was at least one personal attack in 100% of the responses to me from This is Paul, they are highlighted here if they weren't clear in the other diffs - then his response to my raising this with him was another personal attack. I had followed the rest of the advice at WP:CIVIL and that appears to lead here. I believe this behaviour to be against WP:5P4 and I also believed the Misplaced Pages community was in support of doing more to curb this sort of behaviour. Dresken (talk) 06:57, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Bbb23

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Men's_rights_movement (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

I'm not sure what this admin's problem is.

He has been very antagonistic whenever I edit Misplaced Pages Men's Rights.

Being a new user I am learning to make valid edits and discussing it within Talk: Men's Rights. Recently, Jim1138 undid another user's contribution with "No reliable source" as the reason. Given that the source was from the FBI, I undid his edit and cited what source it was. EvergreenFir then undid mine stating that the post is not neutral citing WP:UNDUE

I then undid said edit, and mentioned to take it to Talk: Men's Rights to discuss

Bbb23 then came in and reverted it once more and stated: " you're very close to being blocked, if not already there " then put me on probation here: Talk:Men's_rights_movement/Article_probation#Notifications

Under said reasons it states: "Any editor may be sanctioned by an uninvolved administrator for disruptive edits, including, but not limited to, edit warring, personal attacks, incivility and assumptions of bad faith."

I don't believe I have been disruptive in anyway, I have not launched personal attacks and don't believe I have been uncivil in any way and I don't assume anybody has bad faith.

Ultimately EvergreenFir did indeed discuss the issue with me in Talk: Men's Rights and this is what transpired:

The linked 96 report is referenced in ref 184 in that same section. Synth concerns seem unfounded. Arkon (talk) 23:01, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

It would have been nice if that was referenced then... if we're gonna use that state, attribute it to the source. "NCFM notes that ..." EvergreenFir (talk) 23:07, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Now given that I was placed on probation for no reason in my eyes, i decided to post here. Within this page it specifically states:

"When you start a discussion about an editor, you must notify them on their user talk page."

When I did so, I received this:

This is your only warning; if you purposefully and blatantly harass a fellow Wikipedian again, as you did at User talk:Bbb23, you may be blocked from editing without further notice. - Mlpearc (open channel) 22:56, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

I have not posted in or harassed him in any way with the exception of the notification.

Flamous7 (talk) 23:27, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

The whole thing was very very bitey from the start, not a good look. Bbb23 also isn't exactly acting purely in an administrator capacity on that page, so probably best not to be threatening other editors with blocks there. Arkon (talk) 23:56, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

The edit in question (without diffs, it's hard to say, but I think it's about this addition) looks seriously POVish to me. Given that the actual range percentages is given in the same paragraph, adding this vague-but-sinister-sounding bit does nothing but create a false impression of rampant accusations of rape. Considering that I'm apparently not the only one ( ) who thought so, I think this was a bad edit that needed to be reverted. I also think it's a good idea to, you know, listen to admins when they try to explain how WP works. Also, regular users throw around threats of being blocked all the time. Since admins are regular users (with a mop), I'm not really worried about a threat of blocking. Hell, I get threatened with a block at least twice a week and I've been doing this for years. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 00:07, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Addendum: This edit supports that whole "POVish edit" hypothesis. I suggest that an editor whose POV informs them that feminist literature is, by definition "biased" and "highly opinionated" might want to steer clear of feminism-related articles. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 00:11, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) To be a bit fair, that page is historically a notorious shit magnet. However, I agree it was bitey and this was a rare (but heartening) case where some patience and a keen outside eye helped resolve the situation. EvergreenFir (talk) 00:09, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

What? Your comments have left me with more questions than anything at this point. Where did Bbb23 "try to explain how WP works", where in that edit are you seeing this "by definition" stuff? Arkon (talk) 00:15, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) I used to patrol the MRM page a LONG time ago and enforce the community sanctions that had been imposed. However, it got to be a thankless task, and I largely let it go and let the experienced editors and the new editors hammer things out. Still, it remained on my watchlist, and occasionally I intervene. It may look like I'm acting in a non-administrative capacity, but actually I'm not. I really have very little opinion on the movement or the rather controversial and tangled issues associated with it. What I try to do is to assist in enforcing consensus. In this instance, it looked to me like Flamous7, who is a very new editor, had an agenda and was edit-warring against consensus, so I reverted. The edit summary was a bit aggressive, but that was because I mistakenly thought I had alread notified Flamous7 of the sanctions. I apologize for that part. When I realized I hadn't, I did so. Just like with arbitration sanctions, it's an alert and implies no wrongdoing. It says so in the notice. As for Mlpearc's revert on my Talk page, I understood why they did it because Flamous7 hadn't yet started a thread at ANI. However, it wasn't necessary. OTOH, Mlpearc's only warning about harassment was over the top. Flamous7 had done nothing to deserve even a mild harassment warning based on their conduct toward me. I think that's all I have to say other than I'm glad things were resolved.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:25, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

If I would have an Agenda it would have to be to put more legitimate/valid information onto that wiki. This is my starting point, but it is not and will not be the only wiki I contribute to. As you already know, given the formatting, referencing it takes a lot of time to contribute to Misplaced Pages correctly. As a newcomer I appreciate everybody's patience and guidance and will not give up in making sure I learn the correct/proper way to contribute to wikipedia. Flamous7 (talk) 00:41, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Quinton Feldberg bot editing to bully people

I made a detailed edit summary of the reason but giving no kind of attempt to talk in response Quinton Feldberg (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) just bullies with an edit bot constantly either ignoring or pretending to not notice (because of bias) the talking in the edit summary

Instantly deleting edits, doesn't even talk just bot edits even when someone's talking and clearly not just a vandal, it's because of mindlessly authoritarian bullies like this I stopped using an account years ago --2.121.244.204 (talk) 01:13, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

From what I've noticed is that you have kept making red links by adding brackets in front of and behind various page links. There's no need to add them before and after names. Sakuura Cartelet 01:18, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Yes, what with the triple brackets, IP? --NeilN 01:23, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

• The complaint is of course nonsense--as for the triple parentheses, most of the people the IP graced with those parentheses are in fact Jewish, which is why I am blocking them pronto. Drmies (talk) 01:28, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Well, that was quick! Quinton Feldberg (talk) 01:31, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

• Thanks Drmies. I had the same thought but the first couple of people I checked had no mention of them being Jewish and we usually see parentheses instead of brackets. --NeilN 01:37, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

These were triple parentheses. Quinton Feldberg (talk) 01:38, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

You know, it's 2017. We have free schools available everywhere, and access to the greatest encyclopedia ever--but we can't beat stupid. Drmies (talk) 01:45, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

True. Quinton Feldberg (talk) 01:46, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Duh. Goes off to clean glasses. --NeilN 01:49, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

User:TateMandume

Since WP:CCI is all but abandoned, I'd like to point out TateMandume's clear lack of understanding of copyright laws here for a quicker response. Despite a clear warning being given, TateMandume continues to claim copyrighted pictures as their own and uploads them to Misplaced Pages, as seen by their 15+ pictures deleted due to copyrights. Would an administrator mind looking in to this issue? Thanks. — Chevvin 02:09, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

I've currently gone through the liberty of CSD'ing or fair use-ing the offending pictures still uploaded. However, there appears to be two pictures left (1 2) that I appear to be unable to find online using a quick Google search. — Chevvin 02:39, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Deleted those two (what are the chances that they're good when nothing else is?) and blocked the user. Thanks for coming here with this information. Nyttend (talk) 11:11, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Ethanbas, Riceissa, and Vipul

This is a courtesy notice that a community-imposed indef block of Riceissa that was imposed here at ANI was undone without any discussion, at the covert (off-wiki) request of Ethanbas, who is also one of Vipul's paid editors and who per previous discussions here at ANI has been under the threat of siteban were he to behave in any way disruptively or malignly. The discussion about this is taking place at AN; please comment there if you so choose: . -- Softlavender (talk) 02:24, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages noticeboards