Talk:Vladimir Lenin: Difference between revisions

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	::::::These edits are disruptive. We have a whole talk page here dominated by incoherent rants which have very little to do with improving the article.--] (]) 08:07, 9 May 2017 (UTC)		::::::These edits are disruptive. We have a whole talk page here dominated by incoherent rants which have very little to do with improving the article.--] (]) 08:07, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
			::::::: The page Vladimir Lenin is biased, contains errors. Are this rants incoherent? What have you done recently to improve the page? ] (]) 08:23, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

	== oversaw the Polish-Soviet War ==		== oversaw the Polish-Soviet War ==

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Not so good article

Fischer 1964 as the main source

I don't know the book, but:

Fischer was a journalist, not a historian.

Many Soviet documents were top secret in 1964.Xx236 (talk) 13:17, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Lenin is viewed by Marxist-Leninists

There are almost no Marxist-Leninists in Poland. Where are there so many of them to be mentioned here?Xx236 (talk) 13:23, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

united Russia

Not united but invided and annected.Xx236 (talk) 13:29, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Responding to wartime devastation, famine, and popular uprisings

Rather Responding to the destruction of Russia due to his own crazy ideas of a society without economy Xx236 (talk) 13:48, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

A number of these points fail to make any coherent sense so I'm not really sure what is actually being conveyed. What on Earth does "There are almost no Marxist-Leninists in Poland. Where are there so many of them to be mentioned here?" mean? It is also apparent that there is a level of anti-Lenin WP:Advocacy going on here and statements like "his own crazy ideas of a society without economy" demonstrate a complete lack of familiarity with Lenin's actual beliefs. As for the claim regarding Fischer, his major biography of Lenin is only one of several used here; it is not the "main source" by any means. Midnightblueowl (talk) 14:07, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

What is the source of your knowledge? Do you have any knowledge of Lenin's economical dreams? Xx236 (talk) 12:27, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

I admit, I'm anti-Lrenin, like I'm anti-Stalin and anti-Hitler.Xx236 (talk) 12:40, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

Xx236, you very obviously want to rewrite this article so that it reflects your own passionately anti-Lenin views. You wish to foreground everything Lenin did that you regard as morally reprehensible. In doing so you display utter contempt for the Reliable Sources written by Lenin's biographers and historians of Russian history, because you appear to regard many of them as being insufficiently damning in their assessment of Lenin. In doing so you demonstrate that you really do not understanding how Misplaced Pages works. I would strongly suggest that you read, and contemplate, WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS, WP:Advocacy, and WP:Verifiability, not truth. Let me be perfectly clear. Misplaced Pages does not exist to serve your anti-Leninist crusade. You are more than welcome to create your own website to give your opinion on Lenin, if you so wish. However, if you persist in trying to reshape this article in accordance with your opinions but in contravention of Misplaced Pages policy then I have no doubt that administrators will see fit to administer sanctions against you. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:15, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

I agree that the use of Fischer is problematic, given the age of his book.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:27, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Russian

If I translate the russian article, it is clear not much work has been done on the English one, also they have FACTUAL SOURCES. Considering this is one of the most famous communists I seem to be lead into dislike for him based on what is written and which historians/journalists are used for the sources that work. Maybe he knew he would be demonized in countries run by the bourgeoisie? Maybe because he is a part of Russian history, so they are actually motivated to have true information on his life? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2407:7000:9404:E381:C8A8:E7A2:60DE:DA53 (talk) 20:59, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

...And your point is? Most of what you have written above is unintelligible. Graham Beards (talk) 21:28, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

Graham, the point being that the article relies on verifiable sources whose historicism might be faulty, and that the semantics are highly disfavorable. I think that comes across pretty clear and I'm not even a native English speaker. But then again, wikipedia's politics are extraordinarily libertarian so I'm not surprised that one of its shills is conveniently blind to any inherent ideology in the articles. /Revan  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.252.69.13 (talk) 13:04, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

Image sizes

I thought this would be a good place to ask Midnightblueowl what the merit of selectively enlarging a picture of a house is. Over to you. --John (talk) 21:42, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

I was merely restoring the longstanding image size. Having the image slightly larger allows it to better fit within the given space vis-à-vis the adjacent text and permits the reader a clearer view of the building featured in the photograph. Without the slight enlargement the image is too small to make out any level of detail. Moreover, the enlarged image size has been a longstanding part of the article and was present when it passed as an FA, so it is not something that has attracted any opposition or criticism over the past year or so. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:50, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

The size the image displays at is a function of the particular device one views it on. I see this was discussed at the FAC last year. It is better to leave them at standard. Sometimes one is left bigger in thumbnail view if it is important to reveal detail without clicking on the image. I've seen this used for a map, for example. This is a picture of a house and to me it doesn't seem to matter if the reader can see the detail without clicking on it. Am I missing something? --John (talk) 21:53, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

POV

One of the main sources is a 1964 book by a journalist Louis Fischer. At that time many documents were closed in Soviet archives.Xx236 (talk) 11:50, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

The other source - Sandle about Soviet Socialism. Which part of Soviet was Socialist - mass executions, starvation, rapes, atomic weapons?Xx236 (talk) 12:04, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

responsible for mass human rights abuses. - no rights abuses are able in lowlessness.Xx236 (talk) 12:11, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

a champion of socialism and the working class - has he ever met the working class? The working class in Poland destroyed his system.Xx236 (talk) 12:13, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

I have removed Lenin was anti-imperialist, and believed that all nations deserved "the right of self-determination". because Lenin created the Soviet empire annecting many nations, eg. Georgians, Red Army invasion of Georgia.Xx236 (talk) 12:24, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

People, stop your dreams about good Lenin. Xx236 (talk) 12:42, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

A lot of the stuff you're talking about happened after Lenin died, like atomic weapons and Polish Solidarity. And this page is not supposed to be a pro- or anti-Lenin rant. Lenin's positions on imperialism and national self-determination are important and need to be included. Equally Lenin's policies in consolidating the USSR also need to be mentioned. But it's shouldn't be a matter of point-scoring.--Jack Upland (talk) 12:54, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

The text has plenty of issues and you don't address any of them. Xx236 (talk) 05:27, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Lenin himself created the basis of Stalinism.

As far the point-scoring works creating a biased featured page.

Xx236 (talk) 05:30, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Vladimir Lenin is a featured article

accuracy, neutrality, completeness, and style

Bad joke.Xx236 (talk) 05:25, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

This article will appear on Misplaced Pages's Main Page as Today's featured article on April 22, 2017.

Very bad joke.Xx236 (talk) 06:05, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

So tell us what's wrong with it. — Amakuru (talk) 16:14, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Under Trotsky's leadership, the Red Army put down the rebellion

This page is about Lenin and Lenin decided to fight against the revolutionaries. Doesn't Under Trotsky's leadership move responsibility?Xx236 (talk) 06:03, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Dialectic

An article about Lenin doesn't even mention dialectic or diamat. It's certainly not a featured article.Xx236 (talk) 06:12, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Ryan's opinions are controversial

http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.php?id=43183 Xx236 (talk) 06:27, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

10,000 victims of Red Terror? 50,000 according a Russian historian.

All victims of Soviet repressions - about 2 million.Xx236 (talk) 06:48, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

This source provided does not support the claims that you are making. Midnightblueowl (talk) 12:00, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Personally, I consider Ryan's thoughtful academic work on early Soviet repression to be one of the most balanced works on the subject, which says a lot given it is generally a highly polarized field of study. And it should be noted that Ryan's source for the 10,000 to 15,000 victims of the Red Terror (p. 114) is Nicolas Werth's chapter in The Black Book of Communism (p. 78).--C.J. Griffin (talk) 12:29, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

I have quoted an academic opinion about Ryan's book. Please answer on the same level.Xx236 (talk) 11:32, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Non-communist legacy

I have questioned the value and sourcing of this section with the author. As they are reluctant to discuss it here, I am doing so for them. --John (talk) 10:53, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

I think it should be removed as it is badly written and trivial.--Jack Upland (talk) 11:21, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Pinging Brianboulton, Ian Rose, Tim riley, SchroCat, Nikkimaria, Maunus, Graham11, Алый Король, Dank, Dudley Miles, Graham Beards, Laser brain, Iridescent, and Amakuru, all of whom edited the FAC for this article in 2016, plus Jimfbleak, one of the TFA coords, not included in the above list. I'm aware a couple of these editors have since retired, but am pinging everyone, including the opposer, to get as broad a range of commenters as possible. This article will be on the main page in a couple of days, and it would be good to get this discussion resolved before then. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:32, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Trivial are parts of the existing page, since many years.

Badly written - yes, I wasn't allowed to learn English at school because it was a Communist school and English was the language of our enemies.

Pissing Lening is the reaction on 45 years of Leninist terror and cultural terror. The page contains Communist legacy. It's obvious bias. You have created biased page, now you are told - it's biased and you answer: your critics is badly written and trivial. Generations of Polish people opposing Leninist propaganda, beaten, imprisoned, expelled from universities, aren't trivial. Xx236 (talk) 11:43, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Indeed it should be removed, and notwithstanding Xx236's use of English, which is not an argument foer deletion. If WP:RS tell us tat there is such a thing as a non-communist legacy, then folow them But they don't, and the reason for that is that there is no 'Non-communist legacy'- even the things mentioned (children's books, peeing Lenin etc (He would've liked that!) etc) are only the result of his being known / notable / famous for his role in the Bolshevik Party, the revolution, and communism generally. If there was a 'Popular Culture' section (and I'm glad to see that there int), this would be where the material would go. But, fundamentally, there is no non-communist legacy- his legacy is purely based on his connection to that thing- so the section should, likewise, also not exist. — O Fortuna 11:56, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Leninist terror creates Leninist legacy - mass graves, censorship, destruction of academy. Unborn children of Lenin's victims don't create any legacy the way Communists do - T-shirts, Zizek. What about Good Bye, Lenin!? Is it a legacy or not?

Kołakowski has written at least several pages about Lenin's ideology. What about mentioning him? Xx236 (talk) 12:00, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Either we accept Adolf Hitler#Legacy and accept similar part of Vladimir Lenin#Legacy or we remove/correct Adolf Hitler#Legacy. Xx236 (talk) 12:17, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

I wasn't commenting on anyone's command of English. I was just saying that the section was badly written. Starting with the heading, it was hard to understand what the section was trying to communicate.--Jack Upland (talk) 12:11, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

It was trying to communicate terror and censorship. Xx236 (talk) 12:14, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Mike, thanks for ping. I think Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi has summed it up perfectly, it's just a trivia section, which no longer has a place in any graded article, let alone an FA, I'm happy to see that section go asap Jimfbleak - talk to me? 12:16, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

The problem is that parts of the article don't deserve to be FA.

Anti-Communist opposition wasn't trivia, but fight for freedom.Xx236 (talk) 12:20, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Yes, maybe; but this is not 1919, and we are not here to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS, Xx236. The point of view of the encyclopaedia is that when this article was upgraded to featured article status, this section was not part of the peer review. Therefore, it cannot just be unilaterally inserted, but has to go through the same review and commentary the rest of the article did. Which is what is happening right now. This is your opportunity to persuade those involved in ugrading the article that your edits are worthy of inclusion- but I woud suggest that appealing for justice on behalf of Georgian kulaks is probably not the best strategy. Just my 2p you understand. — O Fortuna 12:31, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

The added content should be removed because it is poorly sourced and tantamount to trivia. I suggest reverting to this version. Graham Beards (talk) 13:42, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

References

Fischer 1964, p. 87. sfn error: no target: CITEREFFischer1964 (help)

I think it is a good idea to have a section on how Lenin has been remembered outside of the USSR countries and the communist movement - but it should probably be based on scholarly evaluations of his work and his influence on non-communist thinkers (Steve Bannon for example has been described as influenced by Lenin), and it should definitely be based on high quality scholarly sources. The version included by Xx236 was indeed a list of trivia with no clear notability and based on low quality sources, which did not match the quality of the rest of the article.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 14:02, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

So there is Kołakowski's book. Very academic non-trivia.

I'm sorry but my comments answered the existing biased page, especially the poor lead. Xx236 (talk) 11:35, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Correct the page

The page is based on several controversial sources and contains erors. My cricis has been ignored since December 2016.Xx236 (talk) 12:05, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

What is a cricis? --John (talk) 14:08, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

I suspect "criticism" or some variation is what was intended. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:12, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Xx236, we have all read your various comments; no one is ignoring them. Frankly it is often difficult to understand what you are trying to convey given your poor grasp of the English language coupled with your highly erratic spelling and sentence structure. However, more significant is the fact that other editors generally do not accept your criticisms and views as being valid. You accuse mainstream, WP:Reliable Sources produced by historians of Russian history and biographers of Lenin of being "controversial sources" merely because they do not conform to your highly specific, extremely anti-Lenin stance. You completely and flatly ignore Misplaced Pages policies on issues like WP:Advocacy. You clearly are not interested in the presentation of a nuanced and balanced article about Lenin that draws neutrally upon the reliable sources produced by historians and other specialists. All you want is for this article to be reformulated into an unrelenting condemnation of Lenin and a lionisation of anti-Lenin and anti-Soviet figures. In short, you don't appear to be here to build an encyclopedia; you appear to be here to 'right great wrongs', and that is not what Misplaced Pages is about. Midnightblueowl (talk) 12:27, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

we have all read - who is we all?

Thank you for your opinion about my English languge, it's nice to obtain something for free.

My poor Englsih is the result of Lenin's success. In Communist countries any contacts with the ouside world were punished. I had to learn Russian, which gave me some knowledge of Soviet/Russian history. Is my knoledge more important or your perfect English?Xx236 (talk) 06:37, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

Changing TFA date

See here; I'm planning to pull this as TFA for April 22, in order to be able to run it on November 7. Since this is going to run in just over 24 hours I need to do this tonight (US east coast time). Please comment asap if there are objections to pulling this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 17:21, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

No objection to running it in November; Iri's argument makes a lot of sense. --John (talk) 18:01, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Done, and I've left a note on Midnightblueowl's talk page. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:14, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Good call, folks. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:50, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Mind the gap

In ===Civil War and Polish–Soviet War: 1918–1920=== there is a significant gap in the timeline: this gap corresponds to the Soviet westward offensive of 1918-19. The misleading effect is that military operations according to the current state of the article start in 1919. I have recently inserted a short summary, which has been deleted. Please justify history on this front starting in 1919., or revert the revert. Gravuritas (talk) 15:36, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Do you have WP:Reliable Sources to support the inclusion of this information? Your original inclusion of this information lacked any supporting citations, reliable or otherwise. This is not acceptable anywhere at Misplaced Pages, let alone on a Featured Article. As someone who has been editing since 2013, you really should be familiar with the basic rules by now. Moreover, given that this offensive does not appear to be mentioned in the biographies of Lenin, is it really crucial for inclusion here in this article? Midnightblueowl (talk) 16:02, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

WP:RS- of course- e.g. see the linked article, but I 'll make a more detailed response in a few days.

Gravuritas (talk) 19:50, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

A Misplaced Pages article does not constitute a WP:Reliable Source that can be cited in other Misplaced Pages articles. That is even more the case in a situation like this one, where the Soviet westward offensive of 1918-19 article is barely referenced itself. Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:00, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Current version: " The Polish–Soviet War broke out that year, after Poland tried to annex parts of Belarus and Western Ukraine". From:Davies, Norman, White Eagle, Red Star: the Polish-Soviet War, 1919–20, Pimlico, 2003, ISBN 978-0-71-260694-3. "In official Soviet histories, as in works by EH Carr & AJP Taylor, the 'outbreak' of the Polish-Soviet War occurs in April 1920. The earlier fighting is frequently overlooked or dismissed as mere frontier skirmishing. The error cannot be passed over lightly. .... The dramatic action of 1920 is part of an unbroken sequence of events which began... on 14 February 1919." So the current version cannot stand: either mention must be made that Davies considers this to be an error, or, my preference, (as it otherwise becomes unduly long), I'd take Davies version as a correction to earlier works.

Gravuritas (talk) 05:33, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the book reference, Gravuritas. I'll take a look at it and see if there is anything in there that can be utilised in this article. Midnightblueowl (talk) 16:51, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Recent removals from lede

User:Gravuritas has twice now removed "and granted independence to non-Russian nations under Russian control" from the lede ( ). They have stated that this wording was not present in the 17 April version which the article has been reverted to, but this is completely untrue. This wording is present both in the 17 April version () and in the September 2016 version that passed FA (). If Gravuritas wishes to remove or amend this then they need to discuss it here first with other editors and gain consensus for their actions. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:11, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

I have checked twice the version on 17th April, to which you referred when you inserted that phrase, and I couldn't find that phrase in that version. I also checked the article as it was in Sep 2016 on the date when it was FA-rated, and I could not see that phrase. I will check again and, if I have been mistaken, I'm sorry.

Gravuritas (talk) 19:50, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Not a problem. We all make mistakes. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:58, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

You are right- my mistake. Apologies.

Gravuritas (talk) 20:15, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

in lede: "and granted independence to non-Russian nations under Russian control."

How cute and magnanimous from Lenin! Too bad that almost all those non-Russian nations actually had to fight a war against bolsheviks to get them recognize their independence, and those nations who lost war were quickly re-annexed. How did this propaganda BS literally in the lede pass a FA review?--Staberinde (talk) 12:33, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Woah, woah, woah, cool your jets, Staberinde. There's really no need for such heated language as "How did this propaganda BS literally in the lede pass a FA review?" If you find the current wording problematic, we can always discuss it politely and without hyperbole. As it stands, I think that the present wording is the best possible option for describing the situation without going into excessive detail.

First, Lenin believed—or at the very least espoused the belief—that each and every national group should have the right to self-determination. This was a view that he discussed in a number of his published writings. He even acknowledged that national groups may wage legitimate wars to gain independence from socialist states. In this he was an anti-imperialist, not a Russian nationalist. On this point, Lenin was at least partially sympathetic to the idea that the Finns, Georgians, Estonians etc could break away from Russia. Accordingly he issued the Declaration of the Rights of the Peoples of Russia in November 1917; it was only after this that Finland, Latvia, Estonia, Poland, Transcaucasia, and Poland declared independence for themselves. His regime certainly backed Marxist revolutionary groups within those countries and welcomed their later reintegration in the form of the USSR (by which point he was largely mentally incapacitated and no longer leading the government), but that does not negate the fact of his initial declaration.

I'm certainly not trying to whitewash any of the actions carried out by Lenin's government or paint an unduly rosy picture of it. However, I believe that the current wording—"granted independence to non-Russian nations under Russian control"—deals with the situation succinctly, accurately, and neutrally in a manner that is appropriate for the lede. There is nothing there that intrinsically suggests that Lenin behaved "cute and magnanimous", as you describe it. Do you have a suggested wording that you feel is an improvement? Perhaps "acknowledged independence" or "recognised independence" might be preferable to "granted independence", but at the same time these alternatives might suggest that Lenin only recognised the independence of these nations after they had declared it, which is simply not the case. Midnightblueowl (talk) 16:14, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

I provided more accurate wording but it was reverted. While it is true that Lenin's rhetoric was positive towards self-determination, that has little weight compared to fact that as soon as Germans were out of way Red Army tended to invade (Estonian War of Independence, Latvian War of Independence etc.) nations that had declared independence, and actual recognition for those as independent countries came through various peace treaties (Treaty of Tartu (Russian–Estonian), Latvian–Soviet Peace Treaty etc.). Current wording basically implies that Lenin handed out independence to all minorities simply because he was nice guy, then in reality whole western-border of Russia was determined by military realities, and independence movements that weren't particularly lucky were just rolled over (Red Army invasion of Georgia, Basmachi movement etc.).--Staberinde (talk) 18:18, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Isn't it however true that part of the Bolshevik platform was national self-rule, or some kind of autonomy, within a Soviet system? A reason it attracted many non-Russians, especially Georgians and Armenians? If this is encompassed in that sentence, then maybe the word independence is a poor choice, or maybe the national treaties on the Western Front and the national self-determination have been mixed together into one sentence.--Simen113 (talk) 18:35, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

The alternative proposed wording ("but Soviets were forced to recognize independence of several non-Russian nations.") has various grammatical errors and also emphasises the idea that the Soviet government was forced to recignise independence, which is an arguable point. As specified above, Lenin supported self-determination for ideological reasons and was not necessarily forced into doing so by circumstance. I also disagree that the longstanding, FA-rated wording "basically implies that Lenin handed out independence to all minorities simply because he was nice guy". I don't think that it does that at all. It just states the basic facts in a plain, simple manner. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:20, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Which countries do you believe the Soviet government 'granted independence' to; and for which do you believe that being forced to recognise independence is only 'arguable'? The set of countries which the Soviets were forced to recognise as independent is clearly not empty, so the current wording is inappropriate. Further, I don't see that 'granted independence...under Russian control' can ever be anything other than a weasel statement. What does it mean?

Gravuritas (talk) 20:45, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Lenin's position on national self-determination was genuine, but he qualified it by saying that supporting the right of divorce doesn't mean that everyone should get divorced. This genuineness is shown by the way that he polemicised against other leftists on the issue, including attacking Rosa Luxemburg in his pamphlet "The Right of Nations to Self-Determination" (1914) and recommending from his deathbed that Stalin be sacked for his handling of Georgia. Lenin's pen was his sword, and his words need to taken notice of. In terms of actual warfare, Lenin could have continued to fight to control Finland, the Baltic states, and Poland, as others wanted. He could have rejected the idea of a federation and found ample Marxist rationale for a single unitary Soviet republic. His position against imperialism and for the right of national self-determination was stronger than most on the international left at the time. This shouldn't be brushed away.--Jack Upland (talk) 22:05, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

@JU & MBO. This is poor, chaps.

No defence has been posted of the weasel statement.
The current version refers to 'the new government', so JU's purple prose about Lenin personally is not relevant.
Given the number of wars floating about at that time, the emphasis on Lenin's PR of years earlier is wildly inappropriate.
Lenin's capability to 'fight on' on all these fronts is a laughable suggestion. What was he going to do: throw his mighty pen at the winners of various wars?
It is not 'arguable' that Lenin's government was forced to recognize e.g. Poland's independence, it's plainly true.
It is not even arguable that what was granted to the Caucasus was independence- independence was taken away.
Snickety comments about grammar to a non-native English speaker, especially when he has his facts right and you don't, is poor manners.

So the current version cannot stand. Our friend's suggestion, with a couple of 'the's added, turns into "but the Soviets were forced to recognize the independence of several non-Russian nations". Anyone got any substantive objections, not Lenin's press releases?

Gravuritas (talk) 05:09, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

How about "and accepted the independence of ..."? This is more neutral, more accurate, and more specific.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:25, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

I don't accept the more neutral or, particularly, the more accurate. A successful war of independence forces the imperial power to accept/ recognize a nation's independence, so our friend's version is more accurate. I have no major problem with a list of the nations, beyond the following two thoughts:

this is an article on Lenin and such a list may be straying into too fine a level of detail
while I know of several nations that would clearly be included, I don't know whether grey areas, particularly of timing, will bog us all down in arguments as to whether Nation Y or nation Z should be included.

Gravuritas (talk) 10:22, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

I think that a list of nations would be far too lengthy and unwieldy for the lede. We really don't need any additional length.Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:37, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

So what options do we actually have on the table other that the longstanding "granted independence"? "acknowledged the independence"? "accepted the independence"? "recognised the independence"? "allowed the independence"? "conceded the independence"? As it stands I favour the current wording most although think that "recognised the independence" might be an acceptable replacement and should deal with the concerns expressed by Staberinde. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:45, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

You and Jack have fought a long rearguard action in defence of the indefensible, and your preference for the current wording is supported by neither logic nor facts. Staberinde has provided a concise and accurate phrase. Why on earth are you fighting it so hard? - neither of you has scored a point against it, despite multiple attempts, apart from your dislike of his grammar. Just concede the phrase and let's get on with some of the other inaccuracies in the article.

Gravuritas (talk) 11:02, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Generally politicians change their politics according to the situation. It's true that Lenin was sometimes more pragmatic than many fanatics. But stories about ant-imperialistic Lenin are funny. Lenin wasn't able to terrorize any nation of the world, he had to limit the extermination according to his resources. And he died before he was able to implement his ideas. If Adolf Hiler died in 1938, we would have remebered him as a great politician.Xx236 (talk) 11:09, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

"but Soviets were forced to recognize independence of several non-Russian nations" is putting a particular slant on the nature of the facts. It is emphasizing the idea that the Russian government was forced to acknowledge the independence of non-Russian nations. In doing so it totally negates Lenin's longstanding beliefs regarding national liberation. I'm not saying that there were not significant external pressures pushing Lenin's decision to issue the Declaration of the Rights of the Peoples of Russia in November 1917, but at the same time I do not think that prose should be amended to emphasise those while ignoring the influence of his ideological beliefs. Lenin is a very controversial figure and clearly there are those who would wish to push this article in a far more blatantly anti-Lenin direction: I can't help but see the amendment of longstanding, FA-rated prose as part of that. I would not describe myself as a Lenin fan but I believe strongly in keeping this article as neutral as possible and I don't want to see it reformulated into a piece of anti-Lenin and anti-communist vitriol. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:40, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

The slant is entirely on your part. When Soviet Russia occupied, or tried to occupy various geographical spaces and lost some if the resulting wars, saying that they were forced to recognise the independence of those nations is a plain vanilla statement of the facts, unlike the current wording which is mendacious. When the Soviets successfully occupied a (non-Russian) space, it did not become independent. These are as plain, neutral and unslanted as sentences can be. As you think that these are 'anti-Lenin', let alone 'anti-communist vitriol' then frankly your claim to 'not be a Lenin fan' must be marked: Highly dubious.

Further, the relevant section in the body of the article contains the hilarious assertion that various countries declared their independence because Lenin told them they could. I've marked it cn. There are some sources quoted, but I'd like page numbers for these fairy-tales.

Gravuritas (talk) 12:11, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

On one hand it is true that Lenin was more accepting to minority rights in Soviet system than his predecessors or successors. On other hand this cannot be confused as an automatic acceptance of non-Russian nations becoming independent countries, as practice showed that almost all the countries that did achieve independence did so after fighting a war against Red Army and signing a peace treaty afterwards. We can't really give excessive weight to Lenin's declaration in 1917 then few years later a "real talk" was done with bayonets. That said, I have an another idea which could allow us to avoid getting stuck on issue how "forced" he really was, while still recognizing that the countries that gained independence were active players and not simply receiving gifts: Anti-Bolshevik armies, established by both right and left-wing groups, were defeated in the Russian Civil War from 1917 to 1922, but several non-Russian nations secured their independence. Comments?--Staberinde (talk) 16:50, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

OK with that suggestion.

Gravuritas (talk) 17:00, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

This sentence has to be read in the context of the whole paragraph, which later mentions the formation of the USSR in 1922.--Jack Upland (talk) 19:55, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

I think that "several non-Russian nations secured their independence" is certainly acceptable wording for the lede, Staberinde. My concern however surrounds how well it flows on from "Anti-Bolshevik armies, established by both right and left-wing groups, were defeated in the Russian Civil War from 1917 to 1922". Perhaps it would just work better as a short, self-contained sentence: "Several non-Russian nations secured their independence from Soviet Russia" or something of that nature? Midnightblueowl (talk) 16:55, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Yea, as long as its placement remains the same I am fine either way.--Staberinde (talk) 20:13, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

I went ahead and made the change.--Staberinde (talk) 20:16, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, Staberinde. Moving that passage interrupted the prose flow in the third paragraph, so I restructured some of the nearby sentences to compensate. Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:42, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Genealogical tree

What is controversial with the digram/tree I have no idea. To be clear it was not entirely invented by me, but doubled checked against a book dedicated to Lenin's genealogy. His genealogy has been investigated far and wide, even if there is some disagreement among researchers in some details, namely the dates of births and deaths of some great-grandparents, the overall picture is absolutely clear and uncontroversial. There is few things that one could add or delete from his genealogy. It's always hugely upsetting, when you've worked many hours researching and carefully drawing (it's not that easy, I must say), then you add your often unique (there hasn't been such a digram) contribution with the best intentions, but it's reverted in less than an hour with one click by a person who even does not bother himself reflecting on the contribution made. After looking at the revision history I have a serious reason to suspect that I've just faced WP:OWN. I clearly see no reason why it's me who has to prove my contribution to be worthwhile before even making it, and not vice versa - an editor who opposes it must prove that my contribution is wrong.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 21:42, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

This is a featured article. Any addition is going to require greater scrutiny than it would on a non-FA. You were WP:Bold and added the image without discussing it with anyone here at the Talk Page first. It's a controversial addition and so I removed it until it could be discussed on the Talk Page; this is the Misplaced Pages:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle. So let's have that conversation - and please, cut the androcentric assumptions and the accusations of WP:Ownership. Starting your conversation in that manner doesn't do you any favours.

First things first, no academic citations have been given testifying to the accuracy of the information in the image. I'm not saying that the information is intrinsically incorrect, but you need to demonstrate that it is indeed accurate. Give us some good, academic citations. Second, the addition of the image was aesthetically unpleasant. As you can see, it clogs that initial "Childhood: 1870–1887" section, which already has one image located in it. Moreover, as it sits in the article, the text in the image is so small that the reader cannot actually make out any of the information in it - it is totally and utterly illegible. Any reader desiring to read the text in the genealogical tree would have to actually click on the image, thus bringing it up in a new webpage and taking them away from the Lenin article itself. This being the case, the addition of this family tree in this form really adds absolutely nothing of value to the article. Rather, it actually takes something away by making the opening section look really rather messy. I do appreciate your good intentions, Lüboslóv, but we do have to have stringent standards to protect FAs from gradually declining in quality. Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:24, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

The lead

united Russia with ...

Bad imperialists invide and annect, good Communist Russia unites. Xx236 (talk) 10:55, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Lenin promoted economic growth

Or maybe rather accepted the total failure of his politics and temporarily tolerated the New Economic Policy. Please prove, that the change was real.Xx236 (talk) 11:01, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

It redistributed land among the peasantry and nationalised banks and large-scale industry.

Lenin despised peasantry, so the distribution of land was pragmatic. The first Communist who accepted peasantry was Władysław Gomułka after WWII in Poland. See "Knowledge and Ignorance: Essays on Lights and Shadows" by Folke DovringXx236 (talk) 11:22, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Everyone is able to nationalise. The problem is how to run economy without basic tools like money, ownership. Sklaves aren't creative. Xx236 (talk) 11:24, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Well, there have been some very creative Slavs, such as Dmitri Shostakovich, Konstantin Tsiolkovsky, and Mikhail Kalashnikov. But I think you are making commentary on the text, not criticising it.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:06, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

one-party socialist state

Please explain the word socialist. If socialism means mass extermination, hunger, censorship - O.K., but if you want illusions of democracy, trade unions, freedom - please don't.Xx236 (talk) 06:30, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Old biographies

Lenins Legacy by Robert G. Wesson (not mentioned here) Page 288, note 6 lists 5 old biographies:

Ulam (not mentioned here) The Bolsheviks, The Intellectual and Political History of the Triumph of Communism in Russia
Wolfe (not mentioned here)
Fischer (quoted here many times)
Schub (quoted here)
Possony, Lenin: The Compulsive Revolutionary (not mentioned here) - antimythical, .

Summarising - of 6 old books one is quoted frequently, one quoted, four ignored.Xx236 (talk) 08:07, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

About Fischer and Possony: Xx236 (talk) 08:25, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

I think that the problem with old books is that they are old. New information does surface occasionally, especially after seismic events like the fall of the USSR. I think Fischer is over-used, but I guess this is more due to the availability of the book than to any other bias. The article on Nikita Khrushchev is far more extreme.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:28, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

'Any over-usage creates bias, the same total rejection does.

The SU controlled any fact about Lenin, so many facts, eg. Lenin's texts, surfaced later.Xx236 (talk) 06:53, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

World revolution

Seeking to promote world revolution, Lenin's government created the Communist International, waged the Polish–Soviet War, and united Russia with neighbouring nations to form the Soviet Union in 1922.

So says the lead. I assumed the phrase "Seeking to promote world revolution" had been misplaced, as it only referred to the Comintern. But it appears Midnight Owl does not agree. Everything Lenin did was to promote world revolution (and by the way, I think the lead overuses the word "promote"), but why single out these examples? The Polish-Soviet War was started by Poland, not by Lenin as a Communist crusade. The creation of the USSR seems a fairly obvious move to consolidate all areas under Communist control.--Jack Upland (talk) 13:06, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

The Polish-Soviet War was started by Poland? Xx236 (talk) 07:47, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

I think our views are poles apart.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:51, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

But one view is grounded in the facts, and your view is not. The Polish/Soviet conflict had been going on since late 1918, and trying to segment it into two wars only serves the PR of the Soviet side. The flare up misleadingly referred to as the 'start' of the war, with a Polish incursion, was preceded by a major build-up of Soviet forces, planned by Lenin, of which the Poles were fully aware as they had cracked the Soviet codes. So, 'started by Poland' is bollocks. Now see if you can dig up a fact to support your view.

Gravuritas (talk) 08:26, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for your message, Jack. The current wording has been in place for quite some time without raising any issues (including during FAC), and while I am open to seeing it changed, I would like to discuss it first if that is okay. The Polish-Soviet War may have been started in large part by Polish territorial expansionism, but at the same time Lenin hoped that the Polish proletariat would rise up in support of the Red Army as part of his predicted world revolution. Similarly, the creation of the USSR can be seen as part of the consolidation of revolution outside of Great Russia itself. For that reason I feel that "Seeking to promote world revolution" sits nicely enough at the start of the sentence. Moreover, moving it here, as you did, renders the sentence in question a little clunky (or so I feel); it inhibits the smooth running of the prose. Does anyone else have any thoughts? Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:58, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

You're both wrong, and by artificially choosing a start date for the military activities which is too late then you are perpetuating the error that Davies identified. From Soviet westward offensive of 1918-19 "The offensive in the Vistula River direction by the newly created Western Army had the aim of establishing similar Soviet governments in Belarus, Ukraine and Poland and to drive as far west as possible in order to join up with the German Revolution and to ignite the World revolution." The current "Seeking to promote world revolution, Lenin's government created the Communist International, waged the Soviet Westward offensive of 1918-19, the Polish–Soviet War, and united Russia with neighbouring nations to form the Soviet Union in 1922" should have the addition I highlight, and of course the relevant section in the body also needs corresponding change.

I don't really think that adding "Soviet westward offensive of 1918-19" to the lede will really improve it. The lede is long enough already, it does not require additions that lengthen it. At the same time, the 1918-19 offensive appears to have been a fairly minor military engagement (at least by the standards of the time). If we mention that in the lede then we will also be required to mention similar Russian military operations that occurred in the Caucuses, Mongolia, etc, and the whole thing will just be unwieldy. The First World War, Russian Civil War, and Polish-Soviet War were far more serious military events impacting Lenin's life and government, hence why they warrant mention in the lede. (Bear in mind that I am just talking about the lede here; I have no intrinsic opposition to mention of the 1918-19 westward offensive in the main body of the article, on the condition that it is properly cited). Midnightblueowl (talk) 15:18, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

I have an alternative possible alteration that it would be good to head your thoughts on. At present we have the following two separate sentences: "Several non-Russian nations secured independence from Russia." and "Seeking to promote world revolution, Lenin's government created the Communist International, waged the Polish–Soviet War, and united Russia with neighbouring nations to form the Soviet Union in 1922." These could be reformulated slightly to something akin to the following: "Lenin's government promoted world revolution, created the Communist International, and waged the Polish-Soviet War" and "Several non-Russian nations secured independence after 1917, but three re-united with Russia through the formation of the Soviet Union in 1922". Any thoughts on this approach? Midnightblueowl (talk) 16:12, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Alternately, I have moved mention of world revolution and the Communist International into a sentence with the peace treaty that brought an end to WW1. My reasoning is that these all took place largely in the first few years of Lenin's regime (1917-19) and all focus on 'foreign affairs'. I have then moved mention of the Polish-Soviet War into the same sentence as the Russian Civil War, because these are obviously thematically connected. Midnightblueowl (talk) 16:38, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Looks good.By the way,I don't think that "The current wording has been in place for quite some time without raising any issues (including during FAC)" is a strong argument. We know that hoaxes have survived in articles for a long time. And internal reviews like FAC often are conducted by people with no knowledge of the subject who concentrate on stylistic issues.--Jack Upland (talk) 20:48, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

That's a fair enough point. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:22, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Censorship under Lenin

The page doesn't discuss Lenin's politics regrading freedom of press and censorship. And the cleaning of libraries.Xx236 (talk) 06:09, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

Not quite. The issue is mentioned, albeit briefly, in the first paragraph of the "Social, legal, and economic reform: 1917–1918" section. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:38, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

Thank you, you are right. However lack of freedom of press was only small part of the totalitarian Soviet censorship system, which included any printed matter and removal of books from libraries and individual collections.Xx236 (talk) 07:01, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

that was under and since Stalin if anything.--Crossswords (talk) 17:48, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

That Stalin was worse, doesn't make Lenin's critics impossible.Xx236 (talk) 09:33, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

The body ?

Does the page inform that Lenin's body is still exposed in Moscow?Xx236 (talk) 06:16, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

It was but not very clearly, I have just made it a bit more explicit, mentioning the mausoleum. Cloud200 (talk) 09:13, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

We would need RS to bolster any such claim. We can't just have unreferenced information in an FA-rated article. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:26, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

Defending omissions doesn't help this article.

Misplaced Pages is based on cooperation. Please don't remove obvious facts as unreferenced. You may use cn or you may discuss the subjest here.Xx236 (talk) 06:31, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

THis page doesn't deserve to be FA. A group of editors imposes their POV. It's against basic Misplaced Pages rules.Xx236 (talk) 06:45, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

Poppycock. Many longstanding and experienced editors examined this article at GAN, PR, and then FAC over the course of 2016. They scrutinised it extensively and clearly thought that it was a quality piece of work; for that reason it was awarded FA status. The article fairly and neutrally reflects what WP:Reliable sources authored by historians and Lenin biographers say about this controversial and polarising figure. It states the most pertinent facts about his life and legacy and gives an overview of what both his supporters and his opponents think about him. No experienced and accomplished editors have claimed that it has a pro-Lenin slant or that it breaks "basic Misplaced Pages rules". The only one making such accusations is you, Xx236. This is despite the fact that you have no experience in getting articles to GA (let alone FA) status. Moreover, your accusations are ironic given that (from your constant, blatant WP:Advocacy of strong anti-Lenin and anti-Soviet perspectives) it is clear that it is you who have very little understanding—or respect for—"basic Misplaced Pages rules". Rules like WP:No original research and WP:Neutral point of view. I'm sorry to be so blunt but your constant stream of baseless accusations and clear ignorance of Misplaced Pages rules are really becoming disruptive. Midnightblueowl (talk)

Anything you list (Many longstanding and experienced editors examined this article at GAN, PR, and then FAC) doesn't make an editor an expert in a subject. To know a subject, people study.

I'm against mass crimes, slave work, ethnic cleansing, censorship, terror. You call it anti-Soviet . Shall I understand that you support the crimes?

Pleae name one acceptable result of Lenin's life. Soviet Union, kolkhoses, censorship, world revolution - everything caused terrible sufferings.

Your blantant advocacy is OK, my critics is blantant advocacy. It's simply unfair.

You attack me instead to quote reliable sources.

It's enough to find bias and errors in an article.

I understand history of Soviet Union and logic. If Misplaced Pages rejects them, it's a problem of Misplaced Pages not mine. Xx236 (talk) 06:16, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

Slow down, MBO. Whatever scrutiny this article passed to get to FA status, a number of points have been raised by Xx236 and one or two by me, and none of those afaik have actually been shown to be incorrect. Those points have been met by mockery of Xx236's English, (for which you and others should be ashamed); calls for WP:RS to back up the points (fair enough); and by a good ignoring when it doesn't apparently suit your world view. As an example of the latter, take Davies' shooting down of the errors of other authors, which I quoted and which you said you were reviewing two weeks ago. In disproof of your assertion that Xx236 is the only one making assertions of a proLenin slant, then include me. On a couple of points that I can see, then the article is not in agreement with the facts, and in such a direction as to unduly present lenin in a favourable light. You and another editor mounted a huge rearguard action to avoid deleting the obvious bollocks that Lenin's government 'granted' independence. That's a pro-Lenin slant. There is an opinion on this talk page that, even though Lenin built a massive empire, he wasn't an imperialist because he made a speech denying it. That's a pro-Lenin slant. There's a defence that Lenin didn't really do something bad, because Stalin did it worse. That's a proLenin slant. I suspect that Xx236 is correct in his other assertions of bias, and if you really want to produce a good article, as opposed to a neatly-set out regurgitation of a few tired biographies, then you would engage positively with Xx236. And if you're looking for poppycock, take the beam out of your eye before looking for the speck in someone else's.

Gravuritas (talk) 06:06, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

Lenin had some constant opinions, eg. hated peasants, but he acted dialectically', so he was pro-peasant till Monday and anti-peasant since Tuesday. He was against British empire, but wanted to control the whole world and it wasn't imperialistic. He allowed any nation to be independed as long the Red Army wasn't able to liberate the nation. Xx236 (talk) 06:59, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

These edits are disruptive. We have a whole talk page here dominated by incoherent rants which have very little to do with improving the article.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:07, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

The page Vladimir Lenin is biased, contains errors. Are this rants incoherent? What have you done recently to improve the page? Xx236 (talk) 08:23, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

oversaw the Polish-Soviet War

oversaw or lost?
The war wasn't authonomic, the Soviets wanted industrialized Germany, not poor Poland.Xx236 (talk) 06:21, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

The body of the text is also misleading, with "The Polish-Soviet war broke out...." in 1919 being incorrect, ignoring the Westward offensive of 1918. The Davies book corrects these errors, but I don't have it with me to add the cites at present.

Gravuritas (talk) 06:53, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

This page is biased. Please correct.Xx236 (talk) 06:44, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

Russia ceded territory to Poland - Russia ceded part of Belarus and part of Ukraine (previosuly Austrian). Why do you believe that Soviet Russia owned the lands?Xx236 (talk) 06:57, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

Government of Vladimir Lenin

The page is linked only from Vladimir Lenin, which is very strange, it's almost an orphan.

The page is parallel to Vladimir Lenin and History of Soviet Russia and the Soviet Union (1917–27) (not linked !). Please explain the need to discuss the same questions several times.Xx236 (talk) 06:38, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

The Government of Vladimir Lenin article goes into greater detail than the Vladimir Lenin article and has a slightly different focus, as its name suggests. This division is not unusual; Misplaced Pages for instance has an article on Barack Obama and the Presidency of Barack Obama, David Cameron and the Premiership of David Cameron etc. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:46, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

Does the ilness and funeral belong to Lenin's government?

Presidency of John F. Kennedy has a short section Assasination, and JFK was killed as an active politician. Lenin was senile during a long period, so he wasn't governing. Xx236 (talk) 06:47, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

The lead He served as head of government ... to 1924. Obviously to 1923. Even basic facts are wrong, even in the lead. FA - really.Xx236 (talk) 07:19, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

Putin about Lenin

Some editors believe that critics of Lenin is anti-Russian. Is Vladimir Putin anti-Russian? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/25/vladmir-putin-accuses-lenin-of-placing-a-time-bomb-under-russia Xx236 (talk) 09:03, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

No editors have claimed that critics of Lenin are intrinsically anti-Russian. Not a single one. This is patently untrue. Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:29, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

I'm happy to be not accused to be anti-Russian. Xx236 (talk) 06:39, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

three (nations) re-united with Russia

How did they do it? Did the nations vote? Or maybe the Red Army annected them?Xx236 (talk) 07:27, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

The Transcaucasian Socialist Federative Soviet Republic was hardly a nation. It was an artificial creature.Xx236 (talk) 07:30, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

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