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Isaaq genocide

Isaaq genocide (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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• The article is trying to make it seem that the Isaaq clan of Somalis solely were targeted by the regime. This is not the case as illustrated below by the many sources provided, the Hawiye and Majerteen suffered the same problem. Secondly the Isaaq are not a different people or ethnic, but are rather Somalis themselves, so the term genocide would not be fitting for the title in accordance with the Encyclopedia Britannica. Moreover I believe every form of clan cleansing or massacre should be discussed in 1 page as this article could lead to a Pandora box of different pages discussing the atrocities committed to certain Somali clans. The author in this case is trying to portray the Isaaq as different or more special than other Somalis, WP:Propaganda.. Last but not least the Isaaq clan are not victims themselves and a combined SNM+Ethiopian unit has mounted attacks on neighboring clans, leveling their main towns to the ground, killing thousands and causing around 80.000 to flee over the border into Ethiopia and killing hundreds of non-combat civilians in the Sanaag region. . differences between them and other clans as they are all ethnic Somalis. . Those differences are what legally defines a genocide.. In addition, the majority of the events already mentioned and those of other clans are current present on the Somali Rebellion article. as AcdiSnow mentioned on talk page After reviewing this users past edits, such as: continuously removing its territorial dispute with neighboring region Puntland in favor of Somaliland (see here, here, here, here, here, and here), changing the map of Somaliland to present it as separate nation (see here, here, and here), removing the disputed Khatumo State (see here), and changing Somalia's map to present its dispute with its Somaliland region as if it had some form of international recognition (see here, here, and here), the majority of the events already mentioned and those of other clans are current present on the Somali Rebellion article. this article seems to be further WP:PROPAGANDA. Due to the reasons mentioned this article should be deleted. Somajeeste (talk) 04:00, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. Jupitus Smart 04:33, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Africa-related deletion discussions. Jupitus Smart 04:33, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Somalia-related deletion discussions. Jupitus Smart 04:33, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

• Delete or rename I think the title of the page is biased since it suggests that Barre was targeting Isaaq. that's untrue, because several major Isaaq cities such as Borama and Erigabo remaied virtually untouched by Barre. Also, Barre in general targeted others such as the Majeerteen community who are part of his own larger Darod tribe. Such POV can be remedied by a change in article title with a rewrite, such as Somalia massacres (1988-1991). If thats impossible, then I suggest a delete, because this article as it stands is misinforming. Futhermore the neologism "Isaaq genocide" is well known as primarily a promotion tactic used by advocates of Somaliland independence to promote secession. Therefore this title falls foul of Misplaced Pages's neutral point of view policies. Barre, as an authoritarian targeted anyone who disobeyed him; therefore he was obviously going to target the SNM rebels in Hargeisa. There is as yet not a consensus in reliable sources that the Barre purges constituted a genocide. Also, the page was created by someone with an extremely strong Somaliland-indepence POV. 92.6.188.30 (talk) 11:39, 13 May 2017 (UTC)
• Comment - Full disclosure I am one of the main contributors to this article. This AfD nomination is completely baseless. One look at the article and the sources it cites makes this very clear. Lumping all killings by the same perpetrator under one article without any regard to WP:GNG is not of benefit in this encyclopedic platform, merits of every article should be looked at based on Misplaced Pages's core content policies: If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to be suitable for a stand-alone article or list as per WP:SIGCOV.

The nominator claims that "the article is trying to make it seem that the Isaaq clan of Somalis solely were targeted by the regime." This is categorically false, if you read the article you will see that it stresses that "Other groups were also targeted by Barre's regime, but according to many observers, including the International Crisis Group, "no other Somali community faced such sustained and intense state-sponsored violence" as the Isaaq". The article further illustrates this point in citing African historian, Lidwien Kapteijns who discussed this very point, namely the "targeting of Isaaq people as a distinct group in relation to other groups targeted by the Barre government states" and also provides a quote addressing this specific point, i.e. comparing what the Isaaqs have suffered in relation to other groups:

Collective clan-based violence against civilians always represents a violation of human rights. However, when its goal is to exterminate and expel large numbers of people based on their group identity alone, it becomes clan cleansing. No one has suggested this term for the collective brutalization of the people of Mudug . However, for the Northwest , this and even stronger terms (such as genocide) are regularly used.

University of Oxford scholar Mohamed Haji Ingiris also discusses this very aspect of relating the Isaaq genocide to what other groups have suffered, and he makes a clear distinction between the experience of other groups (Majeerteen) relating more to 'a massacre' vs the experience of Isaaq being 'a genocide':

Sémelin identifies two distinctions on the intentions of the génocidaires: the first is to destroy the enemy in order to subjugate, the other to eradicate. It is his definition of massacre—“a form of action that is most often collective and aimed at destroying noncombatants”—that is most applicable to other terror campaigns. This too was a useful framework for understanding Siad Barre’s purpose, unlike the genocide on the Isaaq, which was to defeat and destroy the backbone and political base of the Omar Mohamoud/Majeerteen as a subclan in order for them to surrender themselves to the regime (and this happened later) but not to completely eradicate them as a clan.

Please also note that a United Nations investigation concluded that Isaaq genocide did occur , the investigation was conducted by Senior Human Rights Adviser at the United Nations Chris Mburu. Furthermore, the subject has received coverage from numerous sources, on the scholarship side this includes a number of prominent genocide scholars, including Israel Charny executive director of the Institute on the Holocaust and Genocide in Jerusalem, Gregory Stanton Professor in Genocide Studies and founder and president of Genocide Watch, Deborah Mayersen former Program Leader for the Prevention of Genocide and Mass Atrocities at The Asia-Pacific Centre for the Responsibility to Protect at The University of Queensland, and Adam Jones Professor of Genocide studies at The University of British Colombia, to name a few. All discussing the Isaaq genocide specifically as a stand-alone subject, and not lumping it with any other incident. The topic also received substantial coverage in international media outlets, examples of coverage in print include The Guardian and The Washington Post as well as in film evidenced by a documentary by Al Jazeera .

The nominator did not offer arguments or evidence that explain how the article violates policy WP:Delete. The article topic is valid and encyclopedic, it meets WP:GNG, WP:NPOV, WP:ORGIND, WP:V and it is indeed not WP:NOR and thus abides by the principal core content policies of Misplaced Pages.

Please note that this is nothing but a malicious retaliatory report. The initiator has a long history of disruptive edits to this project (Somaliland-related articles) including vandalism and removal of content , , , unsubstantiated accusations of harassment , false reports of edit-warring that ends with them getting WP:BOOMERANG blocked , coming back after the block and continuing to edit war despite past violations and clear warning from admins link, SPI filings just because someone opposed their views that go nowhere link, the list is very long, so please note this aspect of this filing.Kzl55 (talk) 12:45, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

• Keep - Per above, delete rationale is flawed. Article meets WP:GNG.Kzl55 (talk) 12:53, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

• Keep The topic of the article is obviously notable, receiving wide coverage both academically and in international media as cited by Kzl55 above. Many international forensic experts have investigated this genocide , the discovery of many mass graves located in and around Isaaq towns, villages, and cities received world wide coverage by the likes of CNN , Al Jazeera and others. The latest investigation was conducted by the Peruvian Forensic Anthropology team just two months ago in March, the investigation unearthed a new mass grave in Berbera with 17 bodies found, this is just one example of many .

The largest memorial in the centre of the capital city is located in freedom square Hargeisa War Memorial , it is dedicated to this genocide and reads (in remembrance of 1988). This page should not be deleted as it provides information on a significant topic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ciiseciise007 (talk • contribs) 18:57, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

• Keep as per significant coverage in reliable sources. Somajeeste's concerns with the article's content should be discussed on its talk page and changes made if necessary, but we shouldn't be deleting an article because an editor doesn't think that the subject meets the definition of genocide (that's original research), when there are reliable sources calling it a genocide. Cordless Larry (talk) 19:36, 13 May 2017 (UTC)
• Delete or rename - As per Somaajeeste, most reliable sources on the bombardment appear to refer to it as a conflict between the Somalia government and the Isaaq clan-dominated Somali National Movement rebel group; particularly those dating from that actual time period. Also, "Isaaq genocide" has zero Google Ngrams compared to "Somali National Movement" . This indicates that the latter is indeed the scholarly WP:COMMONNAME. Soupforone (talk) 03:52, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

• It's possible that the article does need to be renamed, but I don't understand the rationale of your suggested title, Soupforone. The Somali National Movement is a group, not the organised killing of Isaaq civilians. Cordless Larry (talk) 06:57, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
• As per Cordless Larry above, the Somali National Movement was a group, where as the article's topic is the government sanctioned genocide targeted at civilian members of the Isaaq clan, most of the reliable sources make this distinction clear, be it in print The Washington Post (1990) "In Somalia, the Isaaq clan is the target of government genocide." , or as cited by genocide scholars: "Survivors of genocide, that is, people belonging to the group targeted for genocide. In Somalia this was the Issaq tribe, in Rwanda the Tutsi...." Adam Jones , or even in official United Nations investigations concluding "Based on the totality of evidence collected in Somaliland and elsewhere both during and after his mission, the consultant firmly believes that the crime of genocide was conceived, planned and perpetrated by the Somali Government against the Isaaq people" . Given the clarity with which reliable sources make this distinction, it seems the nomination for either deletion or renaming is inappropriate. The article abide by WP:GNG and should be kept due to significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources as per first comment above. Kzl55 (talk) 08:56, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

• Delete or rename This is totally misleading all this information can be found on Somali civil war all Rebells after regime collapse fought each other but not the scal of "Hargeisa Holocust" shows how far the propaganda goes to this page, yes there are some atrocities but not the scale of Rwanda we can be called genocide.Wy1238 (talk)

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