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Merge

What exactly is the differnce between Jordan Valley (Middle East) and Jordan Rift Valley? Why do we need 2 article s to describe essentially the same thing? Isarig 23:27, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Please see my comments at the Jordan Rift Valley and read the sources cited throughout both articles. Tiamat 16:12, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Error re population

The figures given in the text for the population of the Jordan Valley from the CIA Fact Book refer to the Jordanian side of the Jordan Valley, while this article is about the land on the other side of the Jordan river, which has been under Israeli control since 1967. IOW, the land on either side of the Jordan river can be and is referred to as the Jordan Valley. The two should not be confused. I don't have good population figures for the Israeli-controlled portion of Jordan Valley or I would put them in. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.89.4.9 (talk) 19:46, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Apparently there are conflicting claims about the population of the Valley before 1967. There is a EU report claiming that there used to be "between 200,000 and 320,000 people" living there before the Six Day War, but the Israeli census of the time talks about 9,078 people in the Jericho district. Of course, this was after the war, so all the people who fled then were already unaccounted for.Froy1100 (talk) 16:43, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Content merged from Jordan Rift Valley article

Merged content from the Jordan Rift Valley which was irrelevant to that geology article into this article. Content moved/merged included the tourism, agriculture, and demographics material. Vsmith (talk) 20:19, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Wrong first picture

This picture shows a landscape which IS NOT PART OF THE JORDAN VALLEY AS DEFINED HERE! It shows the southern Sea of Galilee, but WITHOUT even the exit point of the Jordan River (that would be the rounded end which is not part of the picture, farther to its right), which is where the Jordan Valley starts according to the definition presented here.

The confusion with the far longer Jordan Rift Valley, which unlike the Jordan Valley does include the Sea of Galilee, is one probable cause for this mistake, and is the source of much more confusion. Needs careful stressing, even to the point of repetition - as proven here.

In the local Israeli terminology the southern part of the Sea of Galilee/Lake Kinneret is one unit with the northern part of the Jordan Valley, see Emek HaYarden Regional Council. This is probably the second cause ofconfusion.

In short, the Arabic "Ghor" and the Hebrew "Emek" both are defined much wider than the "Jordan Valley" is in this article. Beware of much, never-ending confusion.Arminden (talk) 21:40, 8 July 2015 (UTC)Arminden

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Removing impeccably sourced material

Debresser. Consensus means responding to another person's comments. I gave 3 strong reasons why your edit summary removing material was erratic and not ground in policy So please tell me:

• The source says 'Palestinian Bedouins' and you say they are two different things. Please explain why you are correct, and the source wrong.
• You state B'tselem is an 'radical leftist' organ and fails RS (poor source). Please point to me the relevant part of RSN discussions which has determined it is not RS.
• You state that there is no grounds for putting information prior to 1993 regarding demolitions into the demolition section. Explain why a section of Demolitions should exclude those occurring before the Oslo Accords.Nishidani (talk) 21:01, 23 May 2017 (UTC)

I have split the sentence into two parts. The first part, that Israel severely restricts movement, building etc. in the Jordan Valley is an accepted fact. I have added another source, the Red Cross, for the statement. The second part, saying that this is a de facto annexation of the Jordan Valley; for this part I have added another book, from Indiana University Press. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 21:14, 23 May 2017 (UTC)

I have added another source by Itamar Rabinovich et. al. which gives the Israeli viewpoint that the Jordan Valley should be held for security reasons. Debresser's edit is not accurate: the charge of annexation is not just made by B'Tselem, so attributing it to B'Tselem would be wrong. The source quotes B'Tselem (and others) but it says the same thing in its own voice in the rest of the section. The section concludes with: Actual Israeli practices in the Jordan Valley and statements issued by high ranking officers indicate that what lies behind Israel's policy is not a security-military motive, but rather a political one. What is taking place is the annexation of this land to Israel. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 11:45, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

Jordan Valley

The opening section is so crafted as to defy the way the Jordan Valley is mentioned in IP sources, i.e. as part of the West Bank. This should be registered, because the complexity and vagueness of the introduction fails to clarify this. I suggest Elisha Efrat The West Bank and Gaza Strip: A Geography of Occupation and Disengagement, Routledge, 2006 p.34Nishidani (talk) 21:27, 23 May 2017 (UTC)

One can probably simply change the phrasing to make it clear that the Jordan Valley is part of the West Bank. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 21:44, 23 May 2017 (UTC)

The problem is that the northern part fo the Jordan Valley is not part of the West Bank. As a result, I think we can easily leave this article the way it is, since the second paragraph of the lead already implies that the status of at least part of the Jordan Valley is disputed. By the way, I saw a nice article about the Jordan Valley here. Debresser (talk) 16:56, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

You appear to be confusing the Jordan Rift Valley with the Jordan Valley. Where's your map, vs this,The Jordan Valley and the region of the northern Dead Sea cover approximately 160,000 hectares, which make up about 28.8% of the West Bank (see accompanying map) The Jewish Virtual Library admits that 'The Jordan Valley lies within the Palestinian territory of the West Bank.'; the BBC says the the Jordan Valley of our article was 'captured by Israel during the 1967 Six Day War.' Remember my advice Debresser. Opinions count for zilch in editing. We are obliged to use sources, and unless you can summon adequate evidence for your contention, it has no value for this encyclopedia, and is immaterial to this talk page's purpose.Nishidani (talk) 19:16, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

You started so well, commenting on the subject and not on the editor, and then you just had to be a patronizing dick again. I don't need your advice, and I don't want it, and I ask you to stop giving it. As you have been told at WP:AE before.

As to the point. You are wrong, because this article clearly says that the Jordan Valley starts "from the spot where it exits the Sea of Galilee in the north", and that is far higher than where the West Bank begins. Debresser (talk) 20:19, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

This is kindergarten level advice, Debresser. I gave you several sources. You replied that you don't accept them because our article contradicts them. Misplaced Pages as all beginners are told, cannot be cited as a reliable source, as you just did. Do you understand this? Nishidani (talk) 08:07, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

All I am saying is that there is a contradiction. If I am wrong, and the Jordan Valley does not start where the Jordan River exits the Sea of Galilee, then the text needs to be changed in that regards. Debresser (talk) 10:45, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

Like all IP articles this has been edited indifferently, by adding blobs here and there without an eye to overall coherence. The geography section is quite explicit:'According to the definition used in this article, what is elsewhere sometimes termed the Upper Jordan Valley is not considered part of the Jordan Valley.' One must clearly distinguish, geophysical, historical, and contemporary definitions, and the article deals with the Jordan Valley within the West Bank, which is the meaning 99% of contemporary sources give it. Nishidani (talk) 12:31, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

Np. Debresser (talk) 14:32, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

A simple google map measurement shows 37 kms (from the southern tip of the Sea of Galilee to the West Bank's northern edge a bit south of Beit She'an), of the 110 kms, to be outside of the west bank (all be it area C in the west bank). The article lede, at present, places Israel & West-Bank right next to each other in the second paragraph - and for the most part ignores politics (in the lede). It is fine as is. The Jordan valley is not part of the west bank - to begin with half of it is on the east bank (Jordan), and a third of the length isn't adjacent to the west bank at all.Icewhiz (talk) 15:20, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

From what I can see, the sources typically use "Jordan Valley" to refer to the area which Israel occupied in 1967. The BBC article linked above uses this definition (so do many other news reports). This UN OCHA document does the same. If this does not exactly match whatever definition the article uses, it should either be fixed or clarified. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 16:54, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

The source of the conflation is the Israel bikaa regional council and referring to this area as Bikaar HaYardan as opposed to Emek HaYarden (which also means valley). In Hebrew bikaa would (almost) always refer to the west bank portion, and this has worked itself into the English. In terms of geographical divions, which is what this article refers to, the proper division is fro the sea of galilee downwards, the west bank line in this area does not follow any particular geographical feature and is purely political. Note that the geographical feature is also half on the east side, in Transjordan. Icewhiz (talk) 17:31, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

The OHCA map and BBC piece are not helpful in resolving this as OCHA deals only with the occupied territories and the bbc piece also addresses the IP conflict. Neither deal with geography, which as per my understanding the lowe jordan valley, better known as the jordan valley, extends from the sea of galilee to the dead sea and is composed also of the east bank in the state of Jordan.Icewhiz (talk) 19:52, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

A number of sources: (Britannica) (Jordanian reference) and (OHCA - refuting a map User:Kingsindian by a more clear description: "The Jordan Valley is located in a stretch of land (about 401 km2) that lies adjacent to the Jordan Valley up to the base of the mountain ridge, east of the West Bank. It runs from the Sea of Galilee in the north to the Dead Sea in the south." (at the opening - before going into I/P politics). The source of the underlying confusion is political - not geographical. The politics of the west-bank contained Jordan Valley, Northern Dead Sea, and the back-side of the mountain-line (area west of the valley that is not the valley proper) - is a point of contention in I/P. When referring the Jordan valley in the very narrow sense of the Israeli/Palestinian post-1967 issues - and particularly from a Palestinian viewpoint (but not only, and in Hebrew the use of synonyms (Bikaa/Emek) also confuses the issue (as they both translate to valley)) - the valley (and often the northern dead sea area which is not always named separately) - is loosely defined as the area east of the main Palestinian settlements (which, with the exception of Jericho and small settlements/Bedouin encampments, are all high up in the Hebron and Samaria mountains and don't extend down into the rain shadow desert between the mountain and the valley) which is in Area-C post-Oslo. But this isn't geography (which preexists human existence in the middle east) - it disregards the Jordanian side (half of the valley), contains features that are outside of the valley proper (and are much higher than the valley - which is fairly narrow, but deep, depression), includes areas south of the valley (northern dead sea - if not mentioned separately (sometimes is), and disregards the stretch outside of the west bank to the north.Icewhiz (talk) 05:21, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

I do not know the details, but it looks to me like the Britannica article is about the Jordan river; the article roughly corresponds to the Jordan Rift Valley (see for instance the mention of Hula Valley: Where irrigation permits, the Jordan Valley has been settled by Arab and Jewish agricultural communities. Notable settled regions are the Ḥula Valley in the north...) This article is about the (lower) Jordan Valley. Anyway, as I said, I do not know the details. If there are multiple terminologies, they should be clarified. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 05:37, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

My understanding is that geographically - the article is correct. When mentioning the Jordan valley in the narrow scope of post-1993 (Oslo) Palestinian-Israel politics - then one refers typically to the western side of the valley (and beyond) and only that portion within the west bank (excluding Israel & Jordan) - however this would only be used when the current-affairs Palestinian context is clear (in the same sense that a NJ state paper referring to towns on the Delaware Valley would implicitly refer to NJ's towns). However this is a contextual reference - Jordanian usage would in contrast refer to the eastern portion, disregarding the west bank.Icewhiz (talk) 06:00, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

@Kingsindian The Jordan Rift Valley as a term in geography can be considered to include even the See of Galilee and northwards and the Dead Sea and southwards, I think. Debresser (talk) 09:38, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

One is bound to follow customary usage. It is quite clear that there are three Jordan entities: the larger rift valley, the Upper/Lower Jordan valley, and the Jordan Valley referring to the lower Jordan valley. The distinction in Hebrew has no weight here, since we are dealing with English usage. I have cited the geographical section in the article which states this article covers the Jordan Valley in the West Bank, which is what 99% of newspaper articles referring to the I/P conflict take it to be. 100% of news items are not referring to the Upper Jordan Valley when they simply refer to Israel's activities of dispossession, ethnic cleansing and infrastructure demoltions in 'the Jordan Valley', activities that no longer take place (since 1967) in northwest Israel. This is already set forth in the article, as I noted. It is not that geographically the article is necessarily misleading in the lead: it is that it gives an inclusive definition of 2 realities while leaving blurred the distinctions noted here and later, stating that the article deals with the West bank area taken over in 1967. If all of our sources clearly ignore the Upper Jordan as being implied, then so do we, apart from a clarifying note.Nishidani (talk) 07:06, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

Contemporary news usage - which varies - should not be the basis of determining geography. If you want to an article referring to "The Jordanian Valley portion of the West Bank" - it should be referred as such. See OHCA's definition - ] - of the Jordan Valley (which is the Lower Jordan Valley) - and this is a pro-Palestinian paper dealing with the issue - defining the geography as accepted. Geographical features such as rivers, valleys, mountains, etc. - really should not be defined on the basis of contemporary news items that currently focus on the I/P issue in part (around 33% (half on Jordanian side, 33% of the western side outside of the west bank)) of the valley. Just because that is the current focus in I/P related news (as opposed to the 60s focus on the eastern side - e.g. Battle of Karameh) - shouldn't be the basis for defining geography.Icewhiz (talk) 08:56, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

The Israeli administrative unit Jordan Valley Local Council stretches northward only till the municipal area of Beit Shean, which is much farther south than the exit of the Jordan river from the Sea of Galilee. That fact might also have had its implications on the usage of the term in sources. Debresser (talk) 09:35, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

I'd like to add that Icewhiz is correct that the eastern side of the Jordan Valley is neither Israeli nor Palestinian, rather Jordanian, but is also part of the Jordan Valley of course. Debresser (talk) 09:40, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

Are there any WikiProjects or experts that we can consult on this issue? Debresser (talk) 09:36, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

While we are on the vein of making everything IP related, we will have to rewrite Moab, Pella, Jordan, Tell Hammeh, a bunch of historic battles,and a large host of articles who mainly refer to historically rich area as usually defined by geography.Icewhiz (talk) 11:22, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

No one choses how things play out. We describe what sources say, and if you actually read the article it is wholly focused on the West Bank area of the Jordan Valley. Therefore this is the understanding all previous editors, and this is the way the article is to be developed further. Eqauivocation for political ends is pointless.Nishidani (talk) 12:13, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

It would seem some editors used an article on a clearly defined geographical feature as a COATRACK for hanging IP issues in the general area but outside of the valley proper, and in any event relevant only to a small part of the valley. This editoralizing criticism, whivh has nothing to do with geography should be removed or toned down, as per DUE. The religious significance to christians both as the first baptism site and early communities should definitely receive more space than a small minority group of herders, that are located a few miles west of the valley proper.Icewhiz (talk) 12:27, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

Looking at the page history, it would seem that the demolitions and evictions section was added by Nishidani in 2013. I propose to remove this, as most if not all of the alleged communities suppisedly evicted are quite a few miles west of the actual valley. They are in the general area of the valley, but not in the acutal geographical depression. Besides that the whole section has an NPOV problem in that it does not addreed the Israeli view and legal reasoning such as evictions of squatters invading into nature reserves.Icewhiz (talk) 12:37, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

No. Don't do that. It is bad enough for Debresser to start reverting me when he had read neither the whole page nor knew of the relevant policy, while threatening to pursue me at AE on false grounds when he broke 1R. I'd like to inform you that I have editing rights on Misplaced Pages, and this behavior, of removing anything one detects as belonging to my contributions looks queer. You have no evidence for your assertion, mass removal of material is frowned on, and when reliable sources state people were removed from the Jordan Valley, you are not entitled to challenge that by original research. When hundreds of sources you can google in minutes speak of Israeli plans to annex the Jordan Valley, they are not speaking of israel annexing part of its own territory (the Upper Jordan), which would be a contradiction in terms, but are using the standard English term for the area in the West Bank. Lastly, please read NPOV. There are two constituent elements here, Israel and Palestinians, and adding material about the latter is required. If you wish to address the Israeli viewpoint, add it. Do not remove material on Palestinians because the article may lack balancing material. That is not how we do things here.Nishidani (talk) 13:01, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

The current material in there is poor, out dated, and refers to the entire area C and not just the Jordan valley area, but to areas on the other side of a mountain range. It could be brought up to snuff, and balanced, but it is simply a mess and places undue emphasis of IP politics into a geographical feature which is only partly, roughly a third, in the west bank. COATRACK.Icewhiz (talk) 13:24, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

First things first. Icewhiz gave three links. The first is a Britannica link to the Jordan river; they use "Jordan Valley" to refer to the Jordan Rift Valley, because they talk about the entirety of the Jordan river. The OCHA page which Icewhiz linked to says: The area extends on the eastern side of the West Bank from Ein Gedi in the south, near the Dead Sea to Tel Mekhouz in the north on the Green Line borders with Bisan and from the Jordan River on the east to the slopes of the river’s west bank, accounting for about 2,400 square meters or 28.5% of the total area of the West Bank. I can't parse this sentence. Is it saying that the Jordan Valley forms 28.5% of the West Bank, and is, therefore part of the West Bank? Or is it saying that the part of the Jordan Valley within the West Bank is 28.5% of the West Bank? Furthermore, is this definition the one used in this article? The OCHA article does not talk about the eastern part of the Jordan Valley, as far as I can see. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 13:34, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

Read the intro of the OCHA doc, which states from the dead sea to the sea of galilee (writing on tablet with poor copy-paste, I copied verbatim the section above.) The quote you provide, which appears later, refers only to the portion of the valley that is in the west bank, and also that somewhat broadly construed in terms of the western border, which is ok as they are referring to the "valley area" and not the valley itself, eg West bank jordan valley area.Icewhiz (talk) 13:41, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

The OCHA document in the opening section defines the Jordan Valley as constituted by the Upper Jordan Valley (Israel) and the Lower Jordan Valley (the West Bank), only then to contradict itself by specifying the green-bolded section which clearly and unambiguously, following English usage, uses the Jordan Valley to refer to that section lying within the West Bank. That this is the intended meaning, conforming to English usage, is underlined by all other mentions in the document, which deal with annexation and dispossessive practices, take place in the 'Jordan valley' as defined in the green quote. Israel does not annex itself, and both this, and all sources I am familiar with, speak of Israel planning to annex the Jordan Valley. This is obvious. One does, secondly, not use an ambiguity in one small section of one source to challenge a multitude of sources which state unequivocally the equivalence in English usage of Jordan Valley with an area in the West Bank. No one in his right mind can believe that in speaking of annexing the (unqualified) Jordan Valley, a hundred sources think this refers also to land in Israel outside of the West Bank. Look up the word 'prevarication'.Nishidani (talk) 13:58, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

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