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::I think it is best to keep it in the context of BLP. Critical material is not barred ''per se''. The need for context, proportion, sensitivity, balance and fidelity to substantial sources is paramount. When these are violated, it becomes problematic. "Unsourced negative material" could be amended to include an inappropriate use of a source to disaparage the subject, but I can't think of a neat wording right now. The case which instigated this involved an interpretion of the source, which went further than what was literally stated by the source. This was where the problem arose. Also the use of such material in isolation and out of the context of a balanced article is to be discouraged. One has to imagine the effect on an individual discovering such material through a google search, for example. ] 16:32, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
::I think it is best to keep it in the context of BLP. Critical material is not barred ''per se''. The need for context, proportion, sensitivity, balance and fidelity to substantial sources is paramount. When these are violated, it becomes problematic. "Unsourced negative material" could be amended to include an inappropriate use of a source to disaparage the subject, but I can't think of a neat wording right now. The case which instigated this involved an interpretion of the source, which went further than what was literally stated by the source. This was where the problem arose. Also the use of such material in isolation and out of the context of a balanced article is to be discouraged. One has to imagine the effect on an individual discovering such material through a google search, for example. ] 16:32, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
:::It is a bit hard to follow you guys since I don't know the specifics of the case, although I understand discretion is necessary here. I'm having trouble understanding what "an inappropriate use of a source to disparage a subject" means. If it "involved an interpretation of the source" isnt that ]? I still think it would be clearer and more concise to say editors may be blocked for "Repeated violation of ]" and leave the nitty gritty to the BLP page. Is there a problem with that? —] 16:54, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
:In the case Tyrenius mentions, I was surprised to see BLP applied to a user talk page. Since per Jimbo's email to Tyrenius this is correct, I think this should be addressed somehow. The whole paragraph I recommend is:
::Editors who repeatedly insert material critical of a living person anywhere on Misplaced Pages may be blocked if, in the opinion of the blocking admin, the material is unsourced, or incorrectly sourced, and may constitute defamation. Blocks made for this reason are designed to keep the material off the page until it is written and sourced in accordance with the content policies, including WP:BLP, and should therefore be kept short in the first instance. Repeated infractions should attract longer blocks. Warning and block templates may be placed on the user's talk page: <nowiki>{{blp1}}, {{blp2}}, and {{blp3}}</nowiki>. See .
:We may also need to clarify whether this applies to all living individuals, or only those who have articles in the encyclopedia, or all living individuals except active editors, or something. ] <sup>]</sup> 16:47, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
This probably won't fly on wp-en, but on wp-de apparently it's acceptable to block someone if they're disturbing good editors and keeping them from contributing at their normal rate. Since we are writing an encyclopedia, not creating a community, this makes sense... if some account appears, contributes no content, and just goes around antagonizing well-meaning editors, right now it is difficult to block them if they know "the rules" and are careful not to make actual personal attacks, violate 3RR, do anything that fits under disruption, etc.
Why not allow blocking of people who contribute nothing or essentially nothing to articles, but contribute a great deal of argumentative comments? --W.marsh13:52, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
I'd be wary of doing this due to the potential for abuse. I think the existing ability to block for disruption or community ban for general stupidity covers these problems. Rebecca03:52, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Rebecca on this. It would be very hard to define any clear rules, and users would probably waste more time dealing with arguments than simply reverting bad editors in the existing way.--MichaelMaggs18:38, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Google Web Accelerator
I was recently getting messages saying I was blocked because somebody was using my IP address for vandalism; I found this wholly unlikely because my IP is static. If I clicked "Edit this page" several times, I'd be allowed to do so. Moreover, the IP address listed was not my own; I used some DNS tools and the IP is used by Google. I found that by disabling Google Web Accelerator, I haven't run into any problems, though it could just be a coincidence. Perhaps this is worth noting somewhere... more official so that other users can benefit from this. If its already been mentioned, then I guess I just didn't look hard enough. --Douglas Whitaker04:37, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
I think the correct solution is to use "Don't Accelerate These Sites" feature within GWA and add WP to the list of unaccelerated sites. Obviously GWA will pick up blocked IPs over time so this step will be needed for all WP users who elect to use GWA (until Google figures it out and automatically removes WP from its acceleration list). Crum37512:45, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
I'd have to agree wholeheartedly on this. I was thinking about what the implications were, and allowing GWA didn't seem all that good of an idea. If it is indeed the cases of using GWA, I think this should be made much more public so other users can find out about this. --Douglas Whitaker22:51, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
The Google Web Accelerator sets the X-Forwarded-For: HTTP header, which indicates the user's original IP address. Is the MediaWiki code not making use of that fact? Obviously you don't always want to trust X-Forwarded-For, since a hooligan could set their own on non-proxied connections. But you do want to trust it for known proxies. --FOo03:23, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
GWA doesn't proxy POST requests, so it can't be used for vandalism. The problem comes when a blocked user requests an edit page with GET, then the autoblocker will block the proxy. Subsequent requests for edit pages from the same proxy will show a block message. A POST request would work just fine if the user was able to download the form to post. Indeed we do use the XFF header for known proxies, see m:XFF project, but at the moment, we don't have a list of GWA proxies. -- Tim Starling07:31, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
It's the obvious question, I know, but have we asked them? I'd think the folks at Google wouln't mind telling us, but I suppose I could be mistaken. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 12:15, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
I've just stumbled across this discussion and it explains why I've been getting these random blocks showing a variety of IP addresses for some time (I'm on a static IP address as well). It would be really useful if this information could be posted somewhere more visible than this. Happy to do so if someone could point me in the right direction. Thanks --MichaelMaggs18:28, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Block length
I have changed the section which states that the maximum block length for static IPs is one month to say that it is indefinite, as this seems to be the general consensus. I have seen static IPs blocked indefinately on several occasions and Template:IndefblockedIP exists.--Conrad Devonshire09:10, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Role accounts
Is there something about role accounts somewhere? I cannot find it at the moment; some help would be nice :-) --HappyCamper16:55, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
There is something about Public accounts, which is not quite the same thing. The authority for role accounts is WP:SOCK which says that role accounts are not officially sanctioned and are likely to be blocked. -- zzuuzz18:31, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Extend the blocking templates to give more information?
Would it be an idea to add more information to the block templates? For example, Template:Test5 currently reads:
You have been temporarily blocked from editing for vandalism of Misplaced Pages. Please note that page blanking, addition of random text or spam, deliberate misinformation, privacy violations, and repeated and blatant violation of WP:NPOV are considered vandalism. If you wish to make useful contributions, you may come back after the block expires.
This gives no information on when the block expires, with no indications on how to find out, or mention that the user can still edit their talk page, or tell the user which edit they have been blocked because of. Template:Test5-n does some way towards this, by telling the user how long they have been blocked for, but it's still not ideal, or in common use. The rest of the blocked templates are no better. I'm not sure of the best place to ask this, as it's not tied down to a single template. Mike Peel17:09, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
I hadn't seen that template. It's better than the others, but not there yet. It should really link to this page, and preferably note how to contest the block (see Template:Block). Also, I'm more after making this a common thing, something that will be used in the majority of cases, rather than something that the odd admin will do. (Note: I'm not an admin. I can't block people, so don't use these templates myself. I just see a lot of them on my wiki travels.) Mike Peel17:29, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
I propose that admins should only issue blocks in cases of vandalism and 3RR. For blocks for personal attacks, incivility etc., a fast process managed not only by admins should be established, something like AfD. Currently, admins issue far too much punitive blocks, and block for minor incivlities or personal attacks, whereas the policies only speak about "extreme" cases. Admins will however never follow these policies strictly (for themselves) because it is easier for them to block right away. It has become a common practice among the admins not to follow the policies, and any reference to the non-punitive and only-in-extreme-cases rules is likely to be called wikilawyering. A good example of that practice is the Friday/Zoe conflict, see AN and AN/I for your reference. Zoe issued a punitive block, for an userbox - which can never ever be an extreme violation of anything, Friday undid his/her mistake and Zoe threatened to wheel-war over the issue.
I will not discuss the reasons for the need of virtual "muscles" that is evident in what many admins do here, I just suggest that their powers be lessened.
Please sign with your four tildes under Support or Oppose. Support
Ackoz 20:45, 8 August 2006 (UTC) for the reasons given above.
Oppose
Strong Oppose Personal attacks and incivility are disruptive, and a block usually will put the person in line and saves us time from trying to resolve lost causes and get back to editing and improving WP. --Renosecond21:08, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Oppose All those editors debating the issue in an AfD-like forum would be better off working to improve content and fight vandals. The blocking cases are usually very straightforward, and this is a big reason why we have admins. In the case of a mistake it can be easily corrected. The Zoe/Friday case resulted in a misleading and potentially dangerous template being improved. I see no need for big changes. Crum37521:10, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Oppose. This would all take too long and risk wasting a lot of everyone's time, in my view. A short sharp shock often does the trick, and there are mechanisms for putting things right if one individual admin is a bit hard on someone.--MichaelMaggs18:32, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
The rules used to be like what I said, but got changed as admins wanted more power. This creates two categories of users. Fair enough. 85.70.5.6609:10, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Oppose. To be granted admin status, editors have to have gained the trust of the community, which would include trust that they can make a judgment on when it's appropriate to block. If a block is inappropriate, it can be undone by another admin, though that should be after discussion with the blocking admin, or at WP:ANI. Admins who repeatedly make inappropriate blocks will eventually be taken to arbitration, and can be desysopped. It's not something that happens frequently — certainly not frequently enough to justify such a proposal.
Strong Oppose Agree with User:Renosecond. Neither personal attacks and incivility nor vandalism and 3RR is helpful to Misplaced Pages, being instead extremely disruptive and hindering to contributions by good-faith editors. 218.186.9.310:12, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
This second path to a community ban seems very different than what is in the written policy. I think an effort needs to be made to put it into written policy.
I think an effort should also be made to have a simple way to trace the history of each community ban back through what should be a totally transparent process of establishing community consensus. As things stand, it is difficult to trace back through to the origin of some community bans. For example, User talk:PoolGuy seems to provide an example a decision to ban an editor that was made while the editor was not blocked. In this case, I can find no discussion or notice of the ban/block at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. Part of the problem in making sense of past community bans is that many banned users edit from multiple accounts.
Another way that practice seems to have diverged from the original intent of the written policy is in terms of judging community consensus. A specific recent example of a community ban is here. In that case, the community ban was suggested at 18:21, 24 July 2006. The community ban was put into effect at about 21:54, 24 July 2006 after one other Wikipedian agreed to the "community" ban. If establishing "widespread community support" for community bans is no longer relevant, then the written policy should state this explicitly. --JWSchmidt18:33, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
Your point is well taken. Community bans should meet the standard of broad community support. I found the posting for the PoolGuy ban on AN at . It appears that one Admin proposed a ban at 05:56, 25 June 2006 (UTC). Only one other Admin stated support just eleven hours later at 14:56, 25 June 2006 (UTC). After that the first Admin imposed the permanent ban within 1 hour and 20 minutes at 16:16, 25 June 2006 (UTC).
You are correct that User:PoolGuy was not blocked at the time and was editing with one account as ArbCom had suggested. PoolGuy was asking for attention to an issue that ArbCom had not addressed. The banning resulted in PoolGuy's issue not being addressed, and as a result of his persistence in seeing the issue addressed he continues to post the issue in numerous places to seek Admin attention with no end in sight.
It appears that this turned into an example of WP:BEANS. By banning PoolGuy the Admins created the situation they were trying to avoid. Addressing the issue brought up would have resolved it, without the need for taxing Admin time managing a banned user, when the banning was rushed without adequate discourse to determine if that was the best option of dealing with the user. This is another great example of users and Admins who do not follow written policy actually creating more issues than they resolve. LikeNow01:17, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Ahh yes, the PoolGuy example. If I recall, he's vandalized ANI, he has about 100 sockpuppets, spammed dozens of userpages, and harassed those that had to deal with him. I've watched him bug pschemp constantly. I'm not surprised that he's yet to find an admin who really wants to unblock any of his accounts. He was under sanctions by the arbitration commitee, and under probation against disruptive editing of articles. His sockpuppet, GoldToeMarionetee picked up where poolguy left off (rather than peaceful editing) by spamming a couple dozen user talk pages with requests to vote stack. 3 administrators were in favor of a ban, along with the bunches of other ones who've had to block his floods of sockpuppets that probably agree by enforcing said community. There's no reasoning with poolguy, as he's yet to accept the block of a his alternate account who exhibited the same behavior as before with disruptive editing. He got his chance when the arbitration committee gave him a free pass to create a new account and peacefully edit, and blew it with attempt at votestacking immediately with the new account. Kevin_b_er20:35, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Explanation of general blocking principle
The language used here is taken directly from the Wikimedia Foundation's privacy policy (http://wikimediafoundation.org/Privacy_policy). These are the same conditions under which CheckUsers may reveal personal identifying information about an editor; it stands to reason that these same conditions are conditions under which blocks are appropriate. Kelly Martin (talk) 03:19, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Support without reservation. The wording seems a little broad if you don't have that context, though. Perhaps a footnote might be in order? ++Lar: t/c03:22, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Seems pretty pragmatic, and considering it's in the Privacy Policy, it's actually been ratified by the Board. - Mark03:31, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
As it is certainly not the most common type of block given out, I've bumped the section down from the top of the list where it previously resided. In addition, I've changed the name from 'General blocking principle', which I think implies it is more all-encompassing than it is in actuality, to 'Legal protection', which seems to more accurately describe its origins (the privacy policy). Feel free to comment and/or revert. ~ PseudoSudo11:56, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
No, that's entirely wrong. This is a general principle under which many blocks proceed. If you don't understand that, you shouldn't be blocking people, and certainly should not be editing the blocking policy. Kelly Martin (talk) 14:08, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Then out of complete honestly I admit I am not certain as to its implication. Could you perhaps give an example of its use? ~ PseudoSudo15:54, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
I've reorganized the blocking policy to help clarify matters. Most of the "laundry list" of reasons given before are really elaborations of three basic reasons for blocking (blocks for disruption, blocks for protective purposes, and blocks pursuant to bans), and I've restructured the lists to reflect this better. I will probably do more refactoring in the future to make this more clear. Kelly Martin (talk) 17:32, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Execution of policy
THis may seem like a stupid question, but are admins supposed to follow this actual policy as shown on the article page before/when blocking people or are they allowed to interpret it in any way they see fit? --Light current02:31, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Non-responding editor?
Hi. I am not good as this whole blocking and banning thing and may be asking a silly question. We have a problem with a new editor who uploads and changes and moves stuff about, but who refuses to respond to questions about his actions on his talk page. What headline is this under? It's not vandalism, but just Refusal To Engage in Communication with Other Editors (RECOE). Most of the dispute resolution suggestions begin by telling us to establish some kind of communication, but that idea seems to require two parties. Please help—a pointer to the relevant subsection of this or a related page will do. Arbor14:18, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
People fix articles and help Misplaced Pages, but your blocking policy is too strict! Can someone tell me why they block people after helping Misplaced Pages? 24.121.73.2217:10, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Do you know on some articles, tht box on the right side? I accidentally removed it once without knowing how to get it back (I was trying to change something else) and they blocked me for it. 24.121.73.2221:05, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
He probably means a taxobox or something similar. Unfortunately, there are people who do that kind of thing deliberately, usually for no reason other than because they think it's fun to break things. We usually do try to warn them first, but if they keep doing it we do block them. If you weren't doing it deliberately and got blocked anyway, I'm sorry. But the block has (obviously) expired by now, so why not just write it off as a learning experience and move on? Just mind you don't do it again and you should be fine. Being blocked from editing Misplaced Pages for a while isn't the end of the world, you know. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 22:11, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
I have seen this type of block, generally a 1 or 2 hour block with an summary such as "time to cool down", more and more lately. I can't help but think that this is used as a tool to silence civil discussion. The policy already clearly states: "Blocks for disruption should only be placed when a user is in some way making it difficult for others to contribute to Misplaced Pages." A civil discussion in an appropriate venue will never make it difficult for others to contribute. If a person's argument descends into personal attacks or incivility, thats already covered under policy, but to block someone because they continue to argue a point, or are in the minority, doesn't make sense. What's more it almost certainly will never accomplish its stated goal. I think the policy needs to clearly state that "Cool down" blocks are never acceptable. What does the community think? —Nate Scheffey22:02, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I think that, in cases where the user is making personal attacks, ranting or something like that, a "cool down" block does make sense, however a lot of blocks I've seen don't reflect this. If anything, it often serves to inflame the issue even more by agitating the blocked user, and it could easily lead to accusations of admin power abuse if the blocked user is a regular editor, or at the very least the perception in the editor that they'll be blocked again if they continue to argue their point. That's never a good thing and leads to editors who distrust admins. Catbag22:08, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I completely agree with all of your points. What I am proposing would not affect personal attacks in any way, as that is clearly covered by policy. It would simply prevent all of the negative consequences that you have (correctly) enumerated. —Nate Scheffey22:15, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I agree. Feedback is important to WP. If it is silenced by blocks for no reason at all, surely a) important feedback will not get through and b) people are entitled to their opinions (and have a right to express them); how can a person be blocked simply because his/her opinion differs with the rest?
I think cool-down blocks are quite useful, and are preferable to simply declaring "disruption" and letting the chips fall where they may. If they're abused, then the abuser can and will be challenged for their actions. As far as "distrusting admins" is concerned, who cares? As long as we allow anyone to edit -- and I'm not suggesting here that we stop -- then we'll have plenty of people with authority issues who are going distrust admins no matter what we do. Why remove a useful tool? --jpgordon23:48, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Can you provide an example where there was a block imposed and the discussion was civil? I know I have used a cool down block at least once. The blockee was not being civil - the block had its effect - it wasn't challenged either by the blcokee or by others who saw it (and noted it), even though I suspect they might not have blocked themselves.--Golden Wattle 23:51, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Good examples, and those are the kinds of situations where blocking is a really bad idea and is inflammatory. Most of the time, the difference between incivility and tenacity are quite clear. Honestly, 1-3 hour blocks seem rather silly to me; clearly notify the user that they're being incivil and if they continue, block for a longer time. I don't like the idea that blocks should be substitutions for warnings, and I really don't like the idea of admins inadvertently breeding mistrust in users. Thus, I wholeheartedly support putting in this clarification. Catbag02:15, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
So long as it's clear that blocks for continued incivility and personal attacks are appropriate, that's fine. The best way to cool someone down who isn't violating policy isn't to block that person, but to simply disengage from the conversation. If other people are contributing to the conversation, then it isn't time for the conversation to end. Captainktainer * Talk00:00, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
I disagree. I see no reason to codify this. It is not a good to limit admins ability to calm down heated arguments. Someone going on and on about an issue is being disruptive and should be blocked. Putting something like this in place would just give the blocked person a chance to go "Look, it says here I shouldn't be blocked for arguing my point civilly over and over again". I think it's unnecessary and unwise to do this. Let's not give people more "outs" for disruption. They already have far too many. --Woohookitty05:19, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
I disagree that blocks are an effective way of calming down heated arguments. If an editor is obeying WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL then the discussion should be allowed to continue, no matter how "heated" it may appear to an outside admin. I also would point to User:Captainktainer's comments above as an explanation of preferable ways to deal with heated arguments. Can you give me an example of a situation where an editor arguing a point civily in the correct venue could also be "in some way making it difficult for others to contribute to Misplaced Pages"? —Nate Scheffey05:40, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
They don't seem that way to everyone. I personally think blocking someone and telling them to "Go outside. Play frisbee. Eat an ice cream cone." because they said "I question your ability to administer," is not entirely justified. And aside from it's righteousness, does it help? Does it make the dialogue better or worse? —Nate Scheffey22:17, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
We have policies on when to block users, and most of them are fairly unambiguous. Dragging on a discussion is not one of them. If this is in any doubt on WP:BLOCK we should codify it very clearly. And while not technically a block, I find Nandesuka's protection of Jeff's talk page an almost desysoppable abuse of admin powers. Editors have the right to write 1000kB essays on their user pages venting against policies, as long as they don't breach any of the other conduct rules in the process. it's absolutely not any admin's business to stop them or prevent them from "hurting themselves". ~ trialsanderrors17:15, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
I cannot come out against "cool down" blocks when properly applied. However, too often it's just code for "I don't like what you're saying, so I'm taking away your ability to say it". And yeah, that does far more harm than good. If someone is actually being disruptive, go ahead and block for disruption. The above examples were bad blocks. Friday(talk)23:51, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
It's a tricky issue. For the most part I detest blocks in general for anyone who isn't clearly trying to damage the encyclopedia (vandalism, copyright violation, active attempts to disrupt with no good intent, et cetera). Generally if a user is arguing for what they honestly think to be right I would prefer not to block them... but sometimes there is no choice (mass edit warring, personal attacks which are getting other users worked up, wholesale disruption, et cetera). Short of that I think gentle warnings, calm discussion and just being helpful when there is little to no reason NOT to produce vastly better results. That said, I must admit to having seen cool down blocks 'work' in the past... but only in the sense of the person going away and actually cooling down despite the block - which they invariably find an unjustified form of censorship (even if it actually isn't).
So on this 'no cool down blocks' idea... add a caveat. If the discussion is really getting so heated that a cool down period is required... block 'em all. :] Probably not a viable option, but it exposes the problem with these blocks. They are almost invariably made by admins against users they disagree with. Which will often be inequitable, and always look that way. I'd like to see the 'do not block those you are in an edit war with' be expanded to 'do not block those you are in a disagreement (of any kind) with'. You suggest saying 'cool down blocks are never acceptable', but '3RR blocks' and some temporary 'vandalism blocks' could be described as 'cool down' blocks. I think what you are going for is that 'blocks of users who have argued something strongly, but not engaged in widespread incivility or personal attacks are never acceptable'... and I think that's implied already, but obviously others read different 'implications'. I think the 'grey area' is when there has been a consensus (though that's subject to interpretation too) and someone continues to argue against it... at some point that does become 'disruption' regardless of the validity of the decision. Overall I think a clarification of 'disruption' is what is needed. If people are able to walk away from the discussion and the user doesn't 'follow' them to restart it elsewhere then it isn't 'disruption'... or it's disruption by both sides. It takes two to argue. --CBD02:23, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
I think you're confusing cause and effect. Getting the editor(s) to cool down is one of the desired effects of a block, but it should never be an acceptable cause. For this we have 3RR, NPA, vandalism, etc., and as long as the arguing editors don't step out of the bounds created by our conduct policies it's not the admins' business to curb the discussion. Our policies mention repeatedly that discussion is the first level of dispute resolution, so any block for contrarian but civil discussion, no matter how long it drags out, goes directly against the text and intent of our policies. ~ trialsanderrors04:20, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
I understand your concern, but I do think there is a point at which it becomes untrue. The blocking policy, rightly, includes the fact that it may be required to block someone for 'disrupting the normal operation of Misplaced Pages'. If there is a discussion on any page which is used for regular business (AN/I, AfD, VP, et cetera) and someone refuses to let it go after a clear consensus has been achieved... clogs up the page so that it is difficult to get other work done... starts inserting the dispute into other discussions... et cetera, then that is disruption and the user ought to be warned to stop and blocked if they don't. Note, of course, that if users 'on the other side' are still arguing the point too then they are every bit as responsible for the actual disruption and ought to be treated in kind - as I said, it takes two to argue. On the other hand, if the dispute is on a user talk page, a separate discussion page set up for that dispute only, or some other such locale that isn't needed for 'regular business' then I agree that it can't be causing any disruption and users should be able to say their peace until they are done with it... so long as they don't start 'exporting' the dispute to other locales. --CBD13:42, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
If it's clogging up the works, why not move it to a subpage or into user talk or an RfC? If the person persists in moving the discussion back to the originating page, block him/her for edit warring. Otherwise, maybe that person will get the hint. I just really think that there are alternatives that represent a tiny investment of extra effort by the community, which could have substantial benefits. Captainktainer * Talk14:10, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
it may be required to block someone for 'disrupting the normal operation of Misplaced Pages'. I think that's a very sweeping interpretation of that clause, and the reason why we're discussing a less ambiguous statement about "cool-down" blocks. In my interpretation "disrupting normal operation" means removing AfD tags, blanking or vandalizing an article under AfD, changing other editors' votes, sockpuppeteering, reverting AfD decisions, etc. Excessive discussion can be dealt with in other ways, e.g. by moving it from the main to the talk page, as Captainktainer said. ~ trialsanderrors16:58, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
These concerns are why I clearly stated in the original proposal "a civil discussion in an appropriate venue". I think trialsanderrors and Capt gave good examples of how to deal with situations where a user is disrupting a public area. Also, in the blocks I noted, it was never suggested that the discussion be moved somewhere else. Wouldn't that, a tiny bit of civility, had prevented a lot of drama and ill will? —Nate Scheffey20:04, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
(undented) To throw my two cents in at this late time, I don't think the "cool-down" blocks are a good idea; they are at best punitive and will almost never solve a problem. If a user is disrupting or edit-warring, fine, these are already explictly blockable offenses. However, there is this phenomenon I have seen a few times where one editor is acting a little rambunctiously, then gets hit with a curt reply of "cool down", "NPA" or "AGF", and this (understandably) angers the other user and typically escalates the conflict. I see potential for abuse here, and I am particularly reminded of that scene in Anger Management where Sandler is making reasonable requests of the flight attendants, and they essentially go all "AGF" on him, which ends up with his being tasered... I have seen the scenario erupt several times that one user is acting in good faith but is being overly brusque, at which time said user is hit on seventeen sides by "AGF"s and the like, the whole scene gets escalated, and someone gets blocked. Much better is, if someone has worded a reasonable statement a bit harshly, to deal with the content of the statement. In any case, it should never be a blockable offense for someone to carry on a impassioned debate as long as they are not disrupting, using personal attacks, etc., even when (or perhaps especially when) a majority which happens to contain an admin disagrees. Discussions can always be archived. -- Deville (Talk) 19:06, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Where an editor is politely asked by an administrator to tone down serious personal attacks and responds with more of the same, especially where the response is completely inappropriate to the request, I think "cool down" blocks are a good idea because here we see clear evidence that the editor isn't thinking clearly and, if he goes for an uninvolved administrator, he's not likely to stop being disruptive.
Where an editor is making very seriously disruptive attacks or accusations, a cool down block may also be merited.
If a person is violating WP:NPA, block him for that. Otherwise, move the discussion to the Village Pump or an RfC, or to a relevant talk page. A "cool down block" has too much potential to be used as a codeword for "I don't like what you have to say, so I'm going to keep you from saying it." Captainktainer * Talk09:00, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Which should be something that violates Misplaced Pages policies and that cannot be better handled by, for instance, moving the discussion to another venue, ignoring the babble, and/or recommending dispute resolution or mediation. Captainktainer * Talk06:57, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
In that case, wouldn't it be appropriate to block that editor for disruption, directly? I'm not saying that we shouldn't be blocking people with the purpose of having them cool down, all I'm saying is that "editor X is not cool" is such a subjective criterion that it shouldn't the rationale for doing so. The only cases I can envision where such a "cool down" block would be appropriate would be cases where the user has been disruptive or violates WP:NPA or perhaps violates other policies, and is likely to do so again... well, then, just block them under the objective criteria we have now. --- Deville (Talk) 07:33, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
A text search for "troll" comes up empty here. This is probably the 2nd most common block reason right after the bad username one. Anomo13:36, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Anomo, the term in the policy is "disruption". Saying a user is a troll (and blocking them for it) is a bad idea firstly because it gives them attention/recognition, which is what they're usually after, and secondly it's an incorrect application of the policy, since blocks are not meant to be directed at people but at their behaviour. People are blocked because of their disruptive conduct, not because they are trolls. --bainer (talk) 02:24, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Well put. I dont like the term trolling. Its not accurate to describe certain sorts of disruption as trolling. Disruption is a better description. (especially when qualified). ie 'You are disrupting WP because.....' NOT 'You are a troll' OR 'You are just trolling'--Light current03:33, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Actually, its even better to say 'Your (recent) actions are disrupting (to) WP because......' THis would be more factual and less personal and is less likely to be imflammatory I feel.
Its much much easier to say someone is 'trolling' than to be specific about what theyre doing wrong. This terminology does not help Misplaced Pages and I think the usage of the term is inflammatory and should be banned from being directed against anyone.--Light current20:36, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Info at Misplaced Pages talk:Appealing a block
There has been suggestions to merge the info at Misplaced Pages talk:Appealing a block, here. None of that info is policy yet, but we can change that. I'm not particularly interested in blocking policy, so I don't have an opinion either way. Comments on the merge or the info? Fresheneesz00:54, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
We should merge this as soon as posssible. Codifying current practice is a valid way to create policy. And the two pages deal with the same topic. Some of the contents of Misplaced Pages:Appealing a block could be under the sub-section of Accidental blocks and the rest of the content could be under a newly created section. --Siva197903:58, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Dying is not a reason to be blocked
I realise it's a few months since this was added, but there didn't really seem to be consensus for it at /archive 5#Death/ so I'd like to restart that discussion here. I see no reason to insult someone and their family by blocking them when they die. It's an unnecessary and highly insensitive thing to do and should not be part of this policy. Angela.12:19, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
I'd support removing it. I don't think it's insulting or insensitive to block someone if they die. But it does seem overkill (pardon the unintentional...) to have it as part of policy. How often are Wikipedians conclusively known to have died? Very rarely. And if they are, how big is the risk that their account is compromised? Very slight. Let's avoid cluttering policy with instructions on how to deal with wacky edge cases. — Matt Crypto12:56, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
I would suggest replacing it with a statement that says that if a Wikipedian is known to have died, and is postmortem used for anything other than the standard "Hey, *blank* has died, his family appreciates the outpouring of support from the Misplaced Pages community, here are a few memorials" or "I'm not dead! I feel happy! I feel happy!" it should then be blocked. Blocking should really be a last resort. Captainktainer * Talk18:32, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
I've been watching the discussion on "cool down" blocks both here and on AN/ANI. I think "cool down" is being used as a reason because the policy page has grown too large, and restrictive. If blocking someone for "disruption", it's difficult for a block to stand unless the admin cites chapter and verse to support themselves. I've created a sub page at Misplaced Pages:Blocking_policy/Simplified, with how I think this policy could be drastically simplified. I don't want to waste a lot of Misplaced Pages space with this sort of this, so I've already prod'd it myself. Anyone interested, I invite to look it over and make changes, leave comments on talk, the usual thing. But, if you don't feel it has legs or any chance of survival at all, just leave the Prod in place and it'll all be gone again before you know it. Thanks. --InkSplotch14:18, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
I like it. Working on it as a simplified guideline to the 'why' as opposed to the 'what' - reasons why are a lot more memorable, especially if put in a sentence, and if the 'why' is clear then the 'what' is just details that can be looked up. Such pages are (a) much more likely to actually be read by people (b) much less susceptible to wikilawyering. I submit that the blocking policy page will be particularly susceptible to this.
If the 'why' is kept separate from the 'what', it should be reasonably easy to refactor the present blocking policy page into this format without losing any important detail.
One thing to keep in mind here: changing this page won't automatically change how people behave. Expecting this will lead to disappointment, and probably the sort of reversion that has 'wtf' as the edit summary - David Gerard10:47, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Public relations
Users whose behavior poses serious public relations problems for Misplaced Pages may be blocked. Advocacy of criminal behavior is one basis for this type of block, including advocacy of criminalized sexual practices, particularly pedophilia. Such blocks may be indefinite, in the nature of a community ban.
I don't think this was about throughtcrime at all (it was removed for that reason), but maybe clarification is in order. This sounds like an office action to me- should there be language urging people to use caution when blocking for such a reason? Friday(talk)16:50, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I think so. A block of this nature has great potential for igniting a wheel war. And has potential to generate negative publicity itself. Possibly there should be a requirement that they be run by Jimbo or Brad or even done by them as Office actions. Fred Bauder17:26, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I strongly object to this. First, in various places in the world, things like oral sex and homosexuality are criminalized sexual practices. What Fred Bauder means here is "pedophilia". Second, he added this for a reason: see User:Rookiee. Looking at that situation, in effect this addition means that people attracted to children can be blocked if they admit to it or if they say that they support its legalisation. With this clause, an editor can be blocked for nothing more than stating their biases on a userpage, provided that certain hysterical websites think that those biases reflect badly on Misplaced Pages (see ). It is unethical to ban editors for stating their biases -- that is, for what they think rather than what they have done. — Matt Crypto16:51, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
This is coupled with another policy addition: : "Misplaced Pages is not an appropriate place to advertise your desire for kinky sex (or straight sex). User pages which move beyond broad expressions of sexual preference are unacceptable. This is particularly true for sexual practices which are illegal or repulsive to the general public such as pedophilia." — Matt Crypto17:01, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Such statements are irrelevant to the project, and given that they could potentially cause problems, I don't see a problem with saying stuch statements should not be made. Friday(talk)17:03, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
It depends: it's not clear what statements would be prohibited. People should be allowed to state and discuss their biases. I'm very concerned that the sole intent of this is to prevent people from saying that they are pedophiles. We want people to be able to declare their biases, particularly if they're here to edit in that area. — Matt Crypto17:12, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
There's a difference between objectively and academically discussing a matter, or objectively stating one's biases in relation to a matter, on the one hand, and advocating something on the other hand. --bainer (talk) 17:03, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Sure, I agree, but this is an example of the sort of page that Fred intends to catch under this: . Is that advocacy? I don't think so. — Matt Crypto17:07, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I would support blocking people who admit that they have molested children, are currently molesting children, are thinking about molesting children in real life or if they advocate pedophilia. Misplaced Pages is not completely neutral and should not be. Otherwise we would have to talk about murder, child abuse, pedophilia and genocide as if they are legitimate, neutral actions. It is wrong to have sex with children and that's it. It is not comparable to being gay. I do not think that a hundred years from now that people will accept pedophilia and think that we were intolerant of pedophiles. That is not to say that it is okay to mistreat pedophiles, just that what they do is wrong.
As for admitting that they are a pedophile without acting upon it, I am not sure. I would strongly suggest that they keep it to themselves and their therapists, if they have one, as long as they are able to control themselves. However, I am leaning towards banning them if they admit it because of the public relations damage. Giving pedophiles the right to be "out" and to edit Misplaced Pages is not worth the risk to the project, and it is not Misplaced Pages's place to counter the hysteria surrounding pedophilia. Perhaps a warning for people to not reveal their pedophile status or joke about being a pedophile because they risk being banned would be appropriate. I suggest that bestiality be treated in the same manner, as it is almost as universally condemned as pedophilia and is also wrong because of the harm to the animals, physically and/or emotionally. I think that it would be better if people did not reveal other sexual information either, such as being straight, bisexual, gay, transsexual or into sadomasochism, bondage or cross-dressing, but I doubt that that would happen. That information is not helpful in the building of the encyclopedia. If the person just says that they have knowledge (not just personal) about these topics, that would be somewhat useful. It is bizarre to me that people to discuss their sexuality on their user page, and I think Misplaced Pages would be classier and taken more seriously without that information. You would never find it on the profiles of other encyclopedias' writers or editors or any other respectable publication I can think of. Misplaced Pages user pages should not be treated as a blog or social networking site. -- Kjkolb18:42, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I think you're getting too broad here - would you ban Peter Singer from contributing? I can accept that people shouldn't use their userpages for relating illegal acts they have done or are planning on doing. But it seems to me that the net is being cast too wide - we shouldn't block people for stating their biases, even if those biases are that the age of consent should be lowered, or some such. Haukur23:02, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
(also known as 24.126.191.129)
I don't know what to do about this case, he keep removing parts from the article on Brownstone (group), and I've told him that if he feels that there should be separate article for the information he keeps removing. His general attitude towards the woman in question - Nicole Gilbert - is "MAKE A SEPERATE PAGE FOR NICCI FOR HER INFO!!!!!"/"Make a seperate page for Nicci to speak on her", but obviously he's got something against the woman in question, as he claimed: "who cares what nicci does now" and "i dont care about a seperate showing for nicci". I think if we follow logical reasoning it is the person who wants something removed from an article who has to make the new, separate entry on Misplaced Pages as other editors are most likely not going to be watching that article 24/7 and as time goes by many other edits to the article might have been done, making it more difficult to discover what has been removed from the article.
Basically I'm in need of some input from other editors on this issue as it is on the verge of becoming an editing war (if it hasn't already become one), and I feel already uneasy enough about reverting and rewriting his edits all the time. Thanks. Oh, and if this isn't the place to discuss this kind of issues please tell me where I can do to so. - chsf13:59, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
OK, the user has got a test4-n template, he's done it again, i subst:test5-n, which tells the user he's blocked, but I'm not an admin. So, is he blocked or not, and if not, why does it say he is and why am I putting this template on his talk page? thanks Gzuckier19:52, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
ps, how does the ] thing in the template work; can i substitute the page name in there without having to save the ssubst:template and reedit? and what does the
Obvious cranks and users who aggressively and repeatedly violate fundamental policies may be blocked if there is a consensus among uninvolved users that it is necessary. Such persons should be dealt with kindly and patiently, but should be prevented from wreaking havoc over the period of weeks or months it would take to process an obviously righteous Arbitration request.
This guideline has been under discussion for some time. I think it is sound. Waiting for months for the Arbitration process to handle matters which ought to be handled at the community level is wasteful of everyone's time and energy. Fred Bauder13:05, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
This is pretty much what community blocks are for. Basically, if not one of a thousand admins will unblock you, you just might in fact be batshit insane. The refactored blocking policy covers this - David Gerard14:11, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Blocking is all about admin judgement anyway - to be effective, this page should guide that
Should be just about the same as now in effects, but with less bolt-holes for rules lawyers
I'm trying to work to what I've outlined at Process essay#Process_hardened_to_policy - this is process that is important and needs to be nailed down, but the really hard bits need to be few and important, and Taylorising everything is actually counterproductive.
Are there any important bits of the present text that are missing? Can the clearer version be cut'n'pasted over the current page bit by bit? Is it actually complete garbage? Opinions please - David Gerard14:11, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
The bot bit needs clarifiying. Even if the thing has been aproved if it appears to be causeing trouble it needs to be blocked first and questions asked later. you may wish to mention Misplaced Pages:Sensitive IP addresses to keep some of the comcom members happy.Geni14:27, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Bot bit mentioned; sensitive IP bit mentioned up top (I couldn't see a more appropriate place, and I certainly wasn't aware of it) - David Gerard16:23, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Overall I like this much better than the current page. One discordant element is that 'disruption' is treated as a class of blockable offenses including vandalism, usernames, bots, et cetera in section 1.2... but listed separately from those issues in section 5.2. Obviously there are many other forms of disruption so maybe that's intentional, but it doesn't 'line up' neatly. I should note that this doesn't include 'incivility' or 'personal attacks' amongst the specifically listed types of disruption... I tend to think those are heavily over-used (when there is no real impairment of anyone's ability to contribute), but they are the most frequently cited reasons for 'disruption' and 'cooling off' blocks so it is going to be an issue if people keep getting blocked for them on a daily basis and there is nothing specific in the policy on it. I might also move 'biographies of living persons' from the 'disruption' section up to 'protection' because the goal there is more to protect Misplaced Pages than stop something which is preventing users from contributing. Anyway, minor issues. Thumbs up from me regardless of these. --CBD11:28, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Oh yes, that's good stuff. Want to make that civility one a descriptive note? "These blocks are controversial." OTOH they're not actually that controversial in practice if someone's being a real dick ... - David Gerard12:31, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
I think my views on incivility blocks are well outside the mainstream (I'd say that except in extreme cases, BigDaddy777 comes to mind, they often do more harm than good) so I'd probably not be the best choice for putting in the phrasing on that issue. Just wanted to note that it needed something. Your idea of wording about them possibly being controversial, due to differing views on when such behaviour becomes significantly disruptive, seems fine. --CBD13:47, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
I agree that this is a simpler, more streamlined, and more straightforward page than the one we have now. I commend all. However, I would love it if there were some way to deal with the "cool-down" block problem that I noted above. Is there some simple and elegant solution we could apply to disencourage 3 hour blocks that result in 2 months of drama, or is that just wishful thinking on my part? —Nate Scheffey13:08, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
I think a big question is, how do we deal with it? I think the short term blocks (under 12 hrs) are more contested simply because they criteria for them is so low...what one admin sees as a 15 min offense another might not see an offense at all. Whereas when an admin levies a 24 hour block, the offense is usually much more serious and more self-explanitory. So, do we suggest that under 12 hr blocks be discouraged as they're more likely to be contraversial? Or do we suggest that blocks under 12 hrs not be overturned except in extreme circumstances, as that is likely to result in contraversy? --InkSplotch14:27, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
'"Cool-down" blocks are likely to result in controversy. You need to judge whether a 1-hour block will result in 2 months' drama.' - David Gerard14:29, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
I just refactored section 5.2 to reflect the layout of 1.2, and I even added a bit on cool-down blocks. I'll look over the whole thing again to see if we need to reinforce that elsewhere. Oh, and I even looked up "controversial" so I spelled it right. --InkSplotch14:46, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
I've finally remembered to note the planned rewrite on the project page itself. *ahem* So we should get more useful input. In particular, it's still too damned long and still needs much simpler writing, but without losing detail - David Gerard20:44, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Blocking talk pages
Nandesuka has taken it upon himself to ban further discussion on the publicgirluk discussion page, moreover he jumped at absolutely civil comments I had made elsewhere on the issue within seconds calling them trolling, threatening to ban me, and removing questions I left on the talk pages of other admins of his own accord. I see above that this is not the first time he has blocked a usertalk page, and he seems to be trying to censor discussion where he pleases. Checking the admin histories I found that he has dished out more indefinite bans than almost any admin on WP. My question is does admin have the right to block usertalks simply at a point where he is disinclined to the existence of further discussion? Secondly, does admin have the right to delete questions left on third-party usertalks? Thirdly, is there no system of monitoring the frequency of indefinite blocks admins give to ward against the trigger happy? I am new here, and I find this kind of behaviour very disturbing and hazardous, I never would have thought Misplaced Pages was that kind of place. Please comment before he deletes this message grendelsmother09:15, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
I've added (what I think is) a decent 'policy in a nutshell' summary to the top of the page. If anyone has a problem with it feel free to remove or reword. Cynical21:28, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
I've made it "Editors can be blocked for a time by an administrator to protect Misplaced Pages and its editors from harm." I thought the second sentence could be dropped as the fact that the time varies is implicit in it being to protect Misplaced Pages and its editors from harm - David Gerard07:12, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Living people on user pages
Following a disagreement and relying on some emails available from User:Tyrenius, I think we need to ammend the section on Biographies of living persons to include user space as well:
Editors who repeatedly insert critical material into the biography of a living person (or its talk page), or into a section about a living person in another article (or its talk page), or on a user page (or its talk page), may be blocked under the disruption provision of this policy...
Hmm, you raise a good point, but since there is some desire to move towards a Simplified Blocking Policy, I worry that this addition might be needlessly specific. The proposed simplified policy currently states editors can be blocked for "Disrupting biographies of living persons." Maybe we could change that to "Repeatedly adding unsourced defamatory information about a living person anywhere on Misplaced Pages." Would that be acceptable? —Nate Scheffey14:05, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Actually, now that I look at it, the section in WP:BLP on unsourced negative information already says "This principle also applies to biographical material about living persons found anywhere in Misplaced Pages." So perhaps just saying editors could be blocked for "Repeatedly violating WP:BLP" would be concise yet sufficient? —Nate Scheffey14:13, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
How about "Editors who repeatedly insert material critical of a living person anywhere on Misplaced Pages may be blocked if..."? I'm not sure what's meant by specifying 'biographical' material. Tom Harrison15:06, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
I think it is best to keep it in the context of BLP. Critical material is not barred per se. The need for context, proportion, sensitivity, balance and fidelity to substantial sources is paramount. When these are violated, it becomes problematic. "Unsourced negative material" could be amended to include an inappropriate use of a source to disaparage the subject, but I can't think of a neat wording right now. The case which instigated this involved an interpretion of the source, which went further than what was literally stated by the source. This was where the problem arose. Also the use of such material in isolation and out of the context of a balanced article is to be discouraged. One has to imagine the effect on an individual discovering such material through a google search, for example. Tyrenius16:32, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
It is a bit hard to follow you guys since I don't know the specifics of the case, although I understand discretion is necessary here. I'm having trouble understanding what "an inappropriate use of a source to disparage a subject" means. If it "involved an interpretation of the source" isnt that OR? I still think it would be clearer and more concise to say editors may be blocked for "Repeated violation of WP:BLP" and leave the nitty gritty to the BLP page. Is there a problem with that? —Nate Scheffey16:54, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
In the case Tyrenius mentions, I was surprised to see BLP applied to a user talk page. Since per Jimbo's email to Tyrenius this is correct, I think this should be addressed somehow. The whole paragraph I recommend is:
Editors who repeatedly insert material critical of a living person anywhere on Misplaced Pages may be blocked if, in the opinion of the blocking admin, the material is unsourced, or incorrectly sourced, and may constitute defamation. Blocks made for this reason are designed to keep the material off the page until it is written and sourced in accordance with the content policies, including WP:BLP, and should therefore be kept short in the first instance. Repeated infractions should attract longer blocks. Warning and block templates may be placed on the user's talk page: {{blp1}}, {{blp2}}, and {{blp3}}. See .
We may also need to clarify whether this applies to all living individuals, or only those who have articles in the encyclopedia, or all living individuals except active editors, or something. Tom Harrison16:47, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Automated, incremental banning system
Sorry if this is a naive question, but can the block durations not be automated and incremental? For example the admin’s job would only be to hit the “block” button, and a first-offence block would then be for 15 minutes, then 1 hour for a second, then 1 day, 1 week, 1 month, 6 months, 1 year. This would keep admins from handing out indefinite blocks where they may not be justified, and at the same time they would be policemen rather than judges handing out sentences - a task they can hardly all be wise enough to do judiciously. People would not be written off of the wikipedia project altogether for attracting the wrath of an admin, for finding themselves in a once-off vandalistic mood or getting otherwise carried away. 2) The user would have a sign on their userpage notifying them of the number of times they have been banned and the duration of the next ban, as well as any reference to the fact that they are currently protesting a previous ban. Is this possible? grendelsmother16:42, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
