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Please use this page only to:

• request administrative action against editors violating a remedy (not merely a principle) or an injunction in an Arbitration Committee decision, or a contentious topic restriction imposed by an administrator,
• request contentious topic restrictions against previously alerted editors who engage in misconduct in a topic area designated as a contentious topic,
• request page restrictions (e.g. revert restrictions) on pages that are being disrupted in topic areas designated as contentious topics, or
• appeal arbitration enforcement actions (including contentious topic restrictions) to uninvolved administrators.

For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard.

Only autoconfirmed users may file enforcement requests here; requests filed by IPs or accounts less than four days old or with less than 10 edits will be removed. All users are welcome to comment on requests except where doing so would violate an active restriction (such as an extended-confirmed restriction). If you make an enforcement request or comment on a request, your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. (Word Count Tool) Statements must be made in separate sections. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions.

To make an enforcement request, click on the link above this box and supply all required information. Incomplete requests may be ignored. Requests reporting diffs older than one week may be declined as stale. To appeal a contentious topic restriction or other enforcement decision, please create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning LesVegas

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Jytdog (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 23:16, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

LesVegas (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Acupuncture#Standard_discretionary_sanctions :

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. 14 June 2017 obviously lobbying an editor about the acupuncture article (see Special:Contributions/Arthur_Long)
2. I asked them to self revert the TBAN violation (see below). See this section of their talk page for their denial that this is a TBAN violation (contradicting the block they received for doing the same thing in January - see below)
3. 15 June 2017 Change to their Arthur Long comments (not really) after I notified them above
4. 12 July 2017 Again, obviously lobbying an editor about the acupuncture article (see Special:Contributions/Playalake)

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

1. 17 December 2016 TBAN from acupuncture via this thread at ANI
2. 6 January 2017 blocked for 60 hours for doing the same thing described above, as described in this diff

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

• Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, see the system log linked to above. (diff)

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

This is two instances of obvious and petty trolling in violation of their TBAN. I think it is time for an indefinite block as they don't do anything here but this, but a block longer than 60 hours is at least called for.

The edits are blatantly egging on editors who are SPA and are blatantly only editing WP to advocate for acupuncture (and are heading for TBANs themselves). LesVegas has not left similar comments at any other kind of editor's talk page. TBANs are broadly construed and standing on the sidelines cheering on people who are doing what you can no longer do, is a violation. User:Sandstein, for you to not be able to see this is rather surprising, to say the least. Jytdog (talk) 07:01, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

AE is for dealing with disruption in areas where people do this kind of thing. The TBAN is squarely in that area, regardless of from where it arose. I am sure that LesVegas is rolling around on the floor laughing as folks debate the fine points of whether this is really welcoming people. Whatever. You all should act or not and close this, rather than continuing the giggles for LV. Jytdog (talk) 12:45, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

• Look, the diffs are petty trolling. Trolling but petty. If you all find them not actionable, then so be it. But please, no hyperlegal claims about venue. Dennis Brown, in another discussion you and I had, you wrote It is frustrating to see people try to nail down every single detail in policy because it makes it harder to admin....If you don't want admin to have any discretion, get bots to do our jobs. All this rules and outlines and process hurts enforcement. The TBAN is in the field of the DS; bringing it here makes both issues available, and any admin could take action under either; this is just a forum to bring it that is uncluttered. Jytdog (talk) 22:29, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
• I am not asking for anything to be modified. Shall I quote the close of the ANI thread: Due to issues with civil POV pushing and edit-warring, there is community consensus for a topic ban. LasVegas is indefinitely topic banned from all pages related to Acupuncture, broadly construed. As a side note to the administrators here, Acupuncture is a topic area with active Arbitration remedies, including discretionary sanctions. A community topic ban is perfectly fine, but this could have probably been handled by any uninvolved administrator via the discretionary sanctions You really think applying the entirely standard (and giving -- ahem - broad discretion to admins) "broadly construed" as encompassing this sort of petty trolling is "amending the ban"? Or that applying DS for such obvious (if petty) triolling with their feet as absolutely close as possible to the topic, is counter to the spirit of the TBAN or otherwise somehow harms the community? This is ... Monty Python esque silliness. Jytdog (talk) 23:23, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

• diff

Discussion concerning LesVegas

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by LesVegas

Jytdog declared a personal vendetta against me after I helped get him topic banned from GMO's, broadly construed, so I'm not surprised he's jumping the gun on this issue. Yes, I was blocked for alluding to a topic on Playalake's talkpage before. This time I did not. I'm just giving him a newbie welcome and pat on the head is all (and Arthur Long), and I would be more than happy to show anyone the email I sent. The email contained no allusions whatsoever regarding the topic I was banned for. Since the email was sent through Misplaced Pages's official system, I would welcome any admins/bureaucrats with access it to post it here for everyone's viewing.

Let me ask a serious question: since Jytdog was topic banned from GMO's, is he allowed to greet or interact with anyone editing the GMO topic? Because that's all I did, and if he seriously wants to pursue this action against me, I would love to provide diffs to show how black his pot is.

So do I have this straight: I'm not allowed to say "Welcome to Misplaced Pages!" if that editor happens to have edited on a topic that I can't edit on? Is that what I'm being accused of? LesVegas (talk) 01:17, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

One more thing: the whole reason I ever sent some welcoming love towards editors like Playalake is that I saw diffs like this this (edit warring with a newbie on talk pages, just sad). If Jytdog is going to behave like this (which is exactly the kind of behavior that got him TBanned at GMO, I might add), there would be no need to show a new editor that not everyone on Misplaced Pages acts like that. The last thing I'd ever want to see is an editor be discouraged to edit because they believe everyone here bullies them like Jytdog. LesVegas (talk) 15:09, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

Statement by Sagecandor

Clear violation. Evidence as presented by Jytdog is clear cut and strong. The topic ban as given by BU Rob13 is "broadly construed". Last violation resulted in block for 60 hours. Suggest longer block than that, this time. Sagecandor (talk) 23:44, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

I note that LesVegas proudly displays the Graham's hierarchy of disagreement image on their userpage . Unfortunately, the focus of their choice of response, here, appears to stem from the 2nd-to-last-level of that very hierarchy, including the choice of edit summary in the edit, itself: DIFF. Sagecandor (talk) 00:44, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

Comment by Newyorkbrad

Just as a point of clarification, administrators and bureaucrats have no ability to read other users' e-mails. (Nor do arbitrators.) Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:44, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

Statement by Kingsindian

Perhaps I'm dense, but I see no mention of acupuncture in any of the diffs. Emails, of course, don't fall under topic bans. The relevant basis for sanctioning the behaviour would be editing by proxy. Is there any evidence that this has occured? If not, I don't see a case here. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 05:22, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

Statement by Johnuniq

@Sandstein: "The diffs make no reference to acupuncture"
The two diffs are 14 June 2017 and 6 January 2017.

They show LesVegas offering advice to two new editors, each of whom has edited only at Talk:Acupuncture. The advice did not mention acupuncture but it obviously concerns that topic. Is it necessary to ask for a clarification regarding whether such comments violate a topic ban?

@BU Rob13: As the admin who imposed the topic ban (17 December 2016), would you like to comment?

Is it acceptable for a topic banned editor to monitor relevant talk pages, then offer welcoming advice to new editors who have a common POV? Johnuniq (talk) 06:23, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

• I do not think it would be satisfactory for WP:TBAN to be interpreted as allowing a topic-banned editor to monitor articles under the topic ban, then welcome single-purpose accounts who are only interested in that topic. That is particularly so when the welcome is not merely a standard template, but contains advice and offers of assistance. I was wondering whether it might be necessary to ask for a clarification, but it occurs to me that this topic ban was issued by the community at ANI, so Arbcom might not be the right place to ask. Any thoughts on that? In fact, should this AE request be replaced with a request at ANI? Johnuniq (talk) 08:09, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

Statement by (Roxy the dog)

@Dennis Brown, Les' comments to two strictly Acupuncture WP:SPA editors are clearly in violation of the broadly construed topic ban. Les seeks to be disruptive in the Acu area, as these two editors have been. What is difficult to see regarding this infringement? He's adressing acu SPAs for goodness sake. @Bish - no time is a bad time for wielding the banhammer on disruptive editors.-Roxy the dog. bark 15:04, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

Statement by Kingofaces43

Mention of the GMO topic caught my eye (albeit a red herring in this conservation), but I'll admit LesVegas' extreme adversarial attitude here shows that enforcement of the broadly construed topic ban is needed without the presence of interaction bans to prevent LesVegas from going after editors they've had disputes with in their topic-banned area.

Some admins so far seem to be missing that these communications were with purely SPA accounts in the topic area. That is the distinguishing feature and should be a clear violation of trying to skirt the ban, which broadly construed is supposed to account for. Had these been established users that edit in a variety of topics, then it would be more of a gray zone. The slipperly slope LesVegas is trying to imply in their lashing out here would really only apply if Jytdog was interacting with GMO SPAs, but not editors with other overlapping subject areas. The editors LesVegas were getting in contact with only edit in their topic-ban area. There's no other way than to say LesVegas was interested in them because of where the SPAs edited, and I have seen cases where topic-banned editors were blocked because it was apparent they were following ongoings in their topic area as we see here.

DS are also meant to deal with problem behavior in the topic area. Violating a topic ban is one of those, which can place action dealing with that at AE regardless of where the ban originated. When DS are imposed at ArbCom, they are intended in part to deal with controversial subject areas at AE rather than at ANI where controversial subjects are often not handled well. The only time ANI would need to follow-up on this particular topic ban is if it was the actual appeal of the topic ban. Kingofaces43 (talk) 18:56, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

Statement by Beyond My Ken

I understand and agree with Dennis' point that because the TBan was not an AE action, this is the wrong forum for the complaint to have been filed in, however, we have a situation where the admin who imposed the TBan agrees that Les Vegas' actions were a violation of the intent of the ban, so it seems unnecessarily bureaucratic to restart the discussion at AN/I. As pointed out, admins don't necessarily need a consensus discussion before they enforce a sanction, and this would appear to be a case where it would be appropriate for an admin to block Les Vegas for his behavior on their own initiative, not as an AE action. If the admin wants community confirmation of their action, they can always open a block review thread on AN. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:23, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning LesVegas

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• I see nothing actionable. The diffs make no reference to acupuncture and were not made on a page related to acupuncture.  Sandstein  05:44, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

• In my view, interacting with acupuncture SPAs is not a violation of the acupuncture topic ban, insofar as the interactions themselves are not about acupuncture. See WP:TBAN. If no admins disagree, I'll close this request.  Sandstein  07:28, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

• Not only do I not disagree, the TBAN that's supposedly been violated is a community sanction, not one imposed under arbitration, making this the wrong forum. If I saw any merit in the complaint, I'd do something anyway under ordinary admin discretion; but the type of complaint made here would turn every TBAN into an effective IBAN with every editor who took a strong interest in the topic. I just can't see it. GoldenRing (talk) 09:20, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

• Jytdog seems to have missed differentiating betwen community sanctions and arbcom sanctions. The correct thing to do would have been to either approach BU Rob13, who implemented the ban, or (groan) take it to ANI. That said, I don't think these technicalities need stop any admin from evaluating and acting on the complaint.

I'm far from impressed by LesVegas' response. Their question "I'm not allowed to say "Welcome to Misplaced Pages!" if that editor happens to have edited on a topic that I can't edit on?" (my italics) is self-serving and insincere. (Yes, yes, assume good faith, but note also that AGF is not a suicide pact.) There was obviously no "happens to" about it, especially as the newbies LesVegas offered advise to had edited nothing but acupuncture, and in a tendentious, forum-y way. And LV's posts weren't merely welcomes, they were invitations to e-mail. Looking at their contribs certainly suggests that they have no interest in editing Misplaced Pages as such, but are here solely to promote their POV on acupucture. That's very close to not being here to create an encyclopedia IMO. However, this is probably the wrong time to bring out the sledgehammer. Bishonen | talk 11:23, 13 July 2017 (UTC).

I kind of get that, but where do you draw the line around this sort of thing? Do we really want to get into the business of policing who editors with TBANs welcome to Misplaced Pages? GoldenRing (talk) 11:55, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

Policing who they welcome? No, we shouldn't make a business of that. Jytdog's report wasn't really about "welcoming". (It's a bit like editors who use the "thanks" function to taunt an opponent, mutatis mutandis: that's not really about thanking.) If they're being disingenuous about their manner of, and motives for, welcoming, as in this case, I'm going to say "I see you", even if I don't write them a ticket. Both they and I may hopefully even remember about it next time they try to skirt their ban. Bishonen | talk 14:58, 13 July 2017 (UTC).

• For starters, the Tban is not an AE issued tban, so it should be at ANI instead of here. That doesn't prevent us from taking action, but this is not the preferred venue and we certainly can opt to give instructions to take it elswhere. Secondly, if this was ANI, I would not take action based on this evidence. If BU Rob13 previously blocked for this (which is more detailed but similar to the current complaint), then I'm at a loss how this is a tban violation. Perhaps he can explain; maybe I'm missing some finer point, maybe the block was for a different diff than provided, I don't know. LesVegas is stating he was banned in an area but doesn't mention it. I can see how that is disruptive considering how it was done, but not a violation of the tban. The tban does not mention that he can't say he is tbanned , and no tban SHOULD prohibit someone from saying they are tbanned in an area. An editor has to be able to say "I can't talk about that subject, I am topic banned from it" if they approached by another editor, for instance. I also don't think we can police email unless it is a claim of abusive email. I see no authority in the admin bit that lets us do that. Welcoming new editors might look like skirting the ban, but we aren't mind readers and we don't have the authority to expand or modify the tban, which is very narrow in scope and community imposed. I suggest we close this without prejudice to it being moved to the proper venue. If I saw it there, I would still recommend no action be taken, btw, but that decision should be made there, or by the filing party here, who could choose to just not refile it at ANI. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 14:42, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Jytdog, the problem is that you are asking enforcement of a community ban, not an AE ban. at AE. If it was an AE ban, we could modify it or change it any way we felt was necessary (within Arb limits). Any of us, unilaterally. With a community ban, we absolutely can not do that, and usually you need to a consensus at AN/ANI to modify. So we have to enforce the ban "as is", and I see this as grey area. I DO see a problem, but I find it hard to press the button and own the action in a borderline case like this. That doesn't stop another admin, and I did ping the admin who blocked him before. Taking it to the community allows for clarification of the ban, adding to it, etc. Most of the time, if this is the wrong venue but the case is cut and dry (vandalism, socking, disruptive editing) then we just sanction as non-AE and move on, but this isn't so obvious, at least not to me. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 22:37, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
• They were not blocked for mentioning their topic ban; they were blocked for messaging an editor related to the topic they're banned from. Everything in their message that I blocked for (petition, etc) had to do with acupuncture. An edit does not have to explicitly mention acupuncture to be about acupuncture, and we should not draw such a distinction to prevent gaming. The intent of the community was clearly to remove this editor entirely from the topic area, not for them to continue lobbying from the sidelines and via emails. If that's all the editor is doing, I'd recommend indeffing them with talk page access and email access revoked. Welcoming editors who share their POV, giving them advice about conflicts they've had related to the topic, and telling those editors to email them for more? We all know what's going on there. ~ Rob₁₃ 19:24, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
  • WP:AE is still the wrong place to do it, and I would say that this case should probably go to a community discussion, if anywhere. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 21:54, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
• I'm basically agreeing with Dennis here. I can see the problem, but it's not one where I'm comfortable pulling the trigger on my own discretion. To me, this is enough of an edge case — unusual enough as a TBAN violation — that I'd want to see sort of consensus for action. So if someone feels willing to exercise their discretion over this, risking the consequences, then they should carry on. Otherwise, action is going to need broader discussion than is going to happen at AE. GoldenRing (talk) 09:22, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user

Hyper9 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Hyper9 (talk) 01:25, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Sanction being appealed

Administrator imposing the sanction

SpacemanSpiff (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator

Statement by User:Hyper9

Reason for the appeal There has been a round of edit warring on the Chera_dynasty page. The two editors (one of whom was me) that were involved have used several rounds of edits to improve the page and a closely related one. Several rounds of discussion by the other editor and me were held on the Talk page, in the middle of which this Administrator chose to suddenly serve a 'Sanctions' warning. The next warning was served in a complete opaque manner and I immediately sought clarifications on what behaviour is being censured by the Admin - but there was no satisfactory response. Now, the sanctions have been imposed for an edit by me on the said page. The other warring editors have not responded on the Talk page for ONE week (after I even went to the length of providing screenshots of referenced pages) but have gone ahead with their disruptive edits and removed referenced/sourced content. I reverted this and all of a sudden the Sanctions were imposed on me. When I pointedly asked what is the action for which the sanction has been imposed - this Administrator (User:SpacemanSpiff) had no response (see Talk page end).

As with any edit warring - there are two parties involved. This Administrator has shown themselves to be highly biased in never ONCE censuring the other editor (with whom they regularly interact). I would also like to point out that the Administrator has been quite involved in the page in the past and I would hardly rule out the fact that they are imposing their own POVs on the content. A second reason for a conflict of interest is the fact that the page (and content) that is being disputed is about the area directly opposite their stated location on their User page - and appears to be wholly biased with regard to this topic regarding neighbouring geographies. This Admin has a clear conflict of interest in administrating this page and as a genuine contributor (the largest active contributor of the Chera_dynasty page), I would like to request this action to be revoked or reduced and another uninvolved administrator to look into future edits on this page.

I would also like, as a WP user and the largest contributing Editor of this page, to raise a formal complaint against this Administrator (User:SpacemanSpiff). I would like to record it here and if pointed out, will add it to any other place if needed. Hyper9 (talk) 01:26, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Statement by User:SpacemanSpiff

• Firstly, I have explained the issues clearly as have other admins Doug Weller and RegentsPark who are both involved in the discussions at Talk:Chera dynasty. The problem is that Hyper9 clearly exhibits a WP:IDHT attitude here and keeps repeating the same thing again and again and people stop responding as it's already been addressed, if it's not WP:IDHT then it's a case of being unable to understand discussions or how the encyclopaedia works, in which case the sanction is too light. The user has been refusing to follow proper process of DR and continues to edit war, so I'm hoping that the limited topic ban will allow the user to edit other areas and learn the processes, policies, and guidelines of the encyclopaedia. Also, the allegation of WP:INVOLVED is nothing more than rubbish. THis isn't a case of two parties here, but multiple editors in good standing (and who edit this area) including Doug Weller, RegentsPark and Cpt.a.haddock have continued to engage with the editor. The problem started at Malayalam where the user was trying to push a particular school of though and there was a back and forth between this user and Cpt.a.haddock, then the refusal to go through DR, though the user participated in DR afterwards. The DRN case closed with a resolution somewhat similar to the original state of the article with the addition of "it's a matter of dispute".

A similar situation is going on at Chera dynasty where there was an edit war between Hyper9 and Cpt.a.haddock. MelanieN protected the page and warned them both. Subsequently Doug Weller and RegentsPark joined the two editors in the discussions and edited the article based on that, but were consistently reverted by Hyper9 -- , , , . All this has to be taken in the context of the talk page discussions and if one reads Talk:Chera_dynasty#Cheras_as_Malayalam_or_Tamil_speakers and other posts further down from there, consensus is that this is WP:SYNTHESIS and doesn't belong, but Hyper9 has evaluated consensus for themselves that there's no synthesis and refuses to acknowledge that the other opinions hold (and the constant reverts on the article) and repeatedly says the same thing, which the others have stopped responding to as there's nothing new there.

I think this sanction is absolutely necessary at this point and would recommend against it being removed. —SpacemanSpiff 03:49, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

• Addendum: I forgot to include the refusal to participate in a DR for Chera dynasty, per the diff provided by Haddock below --. —SpacemanSpiff 11:19, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Statement by Cpt.a.haddock

• I am one of the editors involved in this fracas. IMO, Hyper9 is a tendentious editor with a warped view of how Misplaced Pages or, for that matter, how scholarship works. He is yet to grasp the concepts of WP:SYNTHESIS and WP:NPOV or more fundamentally, the idea that Misplaced Pages is a collaborative endeavour.

In addition to the points made by SpacemanSpiff, I'd like to point out that after Hyper9's general disappointment with the DRN resolution on Malayalam, he refused to go through any moderated dispute resolution process for Chera dynasty and the second DRN which I'd opened, expired unanswered.

There have also been a number of personal attacks: "mindless editing", "whose name you can't even spell", etc. The latter attack was after RegentsPark informed Hyper9 that the consensus was against him and to self-revert. The revert never came.

I believe the topic-ban will help Hyper9 understand both how to behave and how to collaborate.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 09:35, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Statement by (involved editor 2)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by User:Hyper9

Result of the appeal by User:Hyper9

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• Endorse TBAN - I think one of the very reasons we have discretionary sanctions is to be able to deal with combative WP:SPAs swiftly and efficiently. This is one such case. User was appropriately warned (twice, including a final warning), and their TBAN was additionally explained to them plainly and clearly by Doug Weller, and Hyper9 needs to understand and accept that this TBAN includes their own talk page. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 04:21, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
• I would decline the appeal if only for procedural reasons, because Hyper9 does not support any of their difficult-to-understand assertions with evidence in the form of diffs.  Sandstein  06:39, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
• I would decline the appeal based on the merits. These was a problem, the solution was within admin discretion, nothing has changed since the TBAN was imposed. I would note the TBAN has already been violated on the talk page and somewhat on Talk:Chera dynasty after explaining they were TBANed. It should be expected that future breaches of the TBAN will likely result in them being blocked temporarily. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 11:33, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
• Endorse the topic ban. I read through the DRN about the origins of Malayalam and perceive that reasoning with User:Hyper9 is likely to exhaust anyone who tries. SpacemanSpiff's final warning (July 1) looks to be abundantly justified, but Hyper9 went right on regardless. EdJohnston (talk) 15:21, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
• Agree with EdJohnston: reasoning with Hyper9 looks very exhausting. We don't want constructive and knowledgeable editors to squander their time and energies on trying to contain problem editors; we want them to have some leisure to improve articles instead of endlessly arguing with those who don't listen. That's perhaps the most important reason we have discretionary sanctions at all. Endorse the ban. Bishonen | talk 19:44, 14 July 2017 (UTC).

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Playalake

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Jytdog (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 14:20, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Playalake (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Acupuncture#Standard_discretionary_sanctions:

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. 15:00, 4 January 2017 1st edit here; a talk page comment: he Change.org petition lists the many problems with this article. I come here and see you editors locking discussion about it. Now NICE is being accused of being problematic. NICE is made of scientists who the NHS takes recommendations from. If you editors want to be on the opposite side of scientific officials, and pretend to have a scientifically backed article, shame on you..
2. 4 January 2017 opening 2nd thread after first one was closed. You editors prefer to censor questions than answer them. I won't bring up other websites, but my questions remain unanswered. How did Misplaced Pages cover NICE before they updated? And why is everyone here quick to update based on NICE, but not care to update many Cochrane Reviews?
3. 4 January 2017 Response on their talk page, when I tried to explain what article Talk pages are for: You locked my questions then you deleted them. Everything I saw on the Change.org petition is correct. Not only do Misplaced Pages editors censor studies beneficial to acupuncture, you also censor discussion on talk pages. You tell me to add what I believe is correct to the article but there is no edit button for me to make changes. This is obvious. Only select editors like you with an obvious censorship problem edit the article, nobody else is allowed to edit. Shame.
4. 6 January 2017 Thank you for this. These editors are very bad and you give good advice. I will set up my email.. This was Playalake's response to LesVegas' terrible initial welcome message (diff).
5. 14 July 2017 Reverting an edit, with edit note: why does Misplaced Pages remove all positive statements on acupuncture? This is exactly what change.org accuses you of. Now you do it? Unbelievable
6. 15 July 2017 reverting, with edit note RACIST EDITS! On talk page admits it's being removed because Misplaced Pages says if authors are Taiwanese then they are not following scientific proofs! RACISM!

Oh for pete's sake. Jytdog (talk) 23:38, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

• Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, see the system log linked to above and diff. 18 January 2017

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Account is pure SPA. From their 1st edit here, this person made it clear that they had no interest in editing Misplaced Pages per the policies and guidelines, but came here to WP:RGW driven by a petition at change.org. They have never attempted to understand WP nor the policies and guidelines, and they are now just all-caps yelling personal attacks.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

• notice provided.

Discussion concerning Playalake

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Playalake

All positive statements about acupuncture are removed from Misplaced Pages and only insults remain. They remove everything! Studies from great journals are deleted because they say the authors of those studies are Taiwanese! So any Asians are problems for Misplaced Pages? Asian scientists are incapable of proper science? I am Asian American and Misplaced Pages now wants me to be internment it seems! That is how you deal with all of us, by deleting all of us from your encyclopedia. I am offended by your policies and will fight to expose this. I found the unjust article from change.org where it is shown that Misplaced Pages doesn't follow its own policies because they want to hurt acupuncture. We will create many more petitions now!

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Playalake

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• A glance at Playalake's contributions show that they are a WP:GREATWRONGS WP:SPA here only to promote their point of view, and in a highly confrontative manner. Without admin objections, I intend to block them indefinitely per WP:NOTHERE as a normal admin action, which probably obviates the need for AE sanctions.  Sandstein  14:29, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
• Agree with an indef block. The editor is practically waving a flag with WP:NOTHERE on it. EdJohnston (talk) 16:11, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

I was just about to either block or topic ban this account the other day after I saw the edits made yesterday to this article and talk 1, 2, 3. This disruption wouldn't be tolerated on any article let alone an article under AC/DS... I agree that an indefinite block is justified here. ~Oshwah~ 19:05, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

• Checkuser needed. We have had more problems with Acupuncture as of late, and this SPA is raising some serious red flags. Otherwise, I agree with with Sandstein's solution, but I think a Checkuser should at least look at this and decide if the CU tools would be beneficial and justified here. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 18:19, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

• OK, Playalake is now indeffed. Waiting for checkuser response before closing this.  Sandstein  19:06, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

•  In progress I'm assuming I'm checking Playalake, not comparing the user to any other user/account. If I'm wrong, someone please ping me and let me know. Thanks.--Bbb23 (talk) 21:09, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

• Playalake is  Confirmed to LesVegas (talk · contribs · count). Blocked and tagged.--Bbb23 (talk) 21:40, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Debresser

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Huldra (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 23:43, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Debresser (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Palestine-Israel_articles#Decorum :

tl, dr: Debresser calls me (and Nishidani) anti-Jewish, i.e., racist. He does not retract this, even when asked multiple times.

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. 21:47, 12 July 2017 I suggest naming a period Hellenistic period
2. 21:52, 12 July 2017 Nishidani agrees
3. 16:26, 13 July 2017 Debresser writes: "I would have no problem with that suggestion, but only if there would be some more input from editors who are not necessarily in the anti-Jewish camp."
4. 16:35, 13 July 2017 Nishidani writes: "I'd appreciate you striking out your remark above about 'editors who are not necessarily in the anti-Jewish camp.' Contextually this says the two other editors here discussing this issue are in an 'anti-Jewish camp', i.e. their contributions are being read as motivated by anti-Semitic hostilities."
5. 16:42, 13 July 2017 Debresser strikes: who are not necessarily in the anti-Jewish camp
6. 16:13, 14 July 2017 Debresser restores: "but only if there would be some more input from editors who are not necessarily in the anti-Jewish/Israeli camp."

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

1. 3 April 2017 last block

• Participated in an arbitration request or enforcement procedure about the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on 18:14, 13 June 2017.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

After 16:13, 14 July 2017 Debresser has had several requests to strike the anti-Jewish comment. He has not done so. I consider this extremely insulting, in my country to call someone anti-Jewish is basically saying that they are racist. I ask that Debresser either

• 1. show how I am anti-Jewish, or
• 2. strike the comment and apologise, Huldra (talk) 23:43, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

User:GoldenRing: Your statement: "anti-Jewish, anti-Zionist and anti-Israeli are regularly conflated by both sides of the Arab-Israeli dispute," (My bolding) is simply not correct. Only one side conflates, or try to conflate, "anti-Jewish" with "anti-Israeli" and/or "anti-Zionist". Huldra (talk) 17:41, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

User:Debresser: You have no reason to blame this AE report on Nishidani, Nishidani actually advised me to "sleep on these things overnight and reconsider" when I said I would bring this to AE if you didn't retract your words. I thought you has been given plenty of chances already, therefor this report. Huldra (talk) 17:41, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

User:No More Mr Nice Guy: Whaw, finding a 3 year old edit from me, proving ...what exactly? The sources given were Source 1, Source 2 People can check for themselves if they think I did a good summary, or not, Huldra (talk) 21:51, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

• Noted

Discussion concerning Debresser

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Debresser

Nishidani is only back from his latest month-long ban since July 12, although he had promised to retire,I'll retire from Misplaced Pages.Waiting for it to be archived so I can put in a permalink, and then goodbye and already he has managed to escalate what has been a very quiet WP:ARBPIA area for the last month. I will not hide that I am less than thrilled about his return, and for good reason. That, however, is not a crime, and should not be held against me. This post is likely some kind of payback for that ban.

Regarding Huldra. She can hardly be said to have clean hands herself, see this WP:ANI thread, where she was shown to hide POV edits behind the innocent "ce" edit summary. If that is bad editing in general, in the WP:ARBPIA area this is reason for sanctions. Please also see User_talk:Black_Kite, where Black Kite mentions that this is indeed a WP:AE issue. Per WP:BOOMERANG, Huldra should be sanctioned for making such misleading and POV edits in the WP:ARBPIA area, and then having the gall to report me.

What it is I am being accused of precisely? I saw 6 edit summaries above, of which the first is Huldra's, and another two are Nishidani's. By the way, I already stated more than once on the talkpage, that I have no problem with Huldra's proposal.

All I said which seems to have struck the wrong note with Huldra, is that the agreement of only a few editors is too feeble, and that I would like some outside input. Seeing the same group of editors time and time again, and noticing that they always agree with each other, makes one suspicious of team work, and so I felt that asking for outside input was the right thing to do. Surely that is reasonable. Regarding team work, please notice this, and see also the comment of another editor here, so I think some suspicion is not out of order, and asking for outside input is always a good idea. Debresser (talk) 01:11, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Additional comments by Debresser

Based on Huldra's "additional comments", I now see that she has taken offense to the fact that I asked for input from editors who are not "anti-Jewish/Israeli". Contrary to what she claims, I did not call her "racist" or "anti-Semite". All I did was notice, that her stance on the Israeli-Palestine conflict is such which shows her to be on the Palestine side of these political matters. As a matter of fact, I have not mentioned any editor by name, and she has decided herself that the shoe fits.

As a matter of fact, I had first written "anti-Jewish", and when Nisdani asked me to strike that, I did so, precisely because I meant the political side of things and "anti-Jewish" has another connotation than the one I had in mind. When I later had time for further consideration, I added "/Israeli", to clarify that I meant the political issue only. I am surprised that Huldra has ignored that clarification of mine, and is using the old version as an excuse to open this WP:AE post. I think that my subsequent commentaries on the talkpage in that section make it sufficiently clear that I had only the political issue in mind, nothing more. Whether Huldra has misread om good faith, is anybody's guess, although I think that in view of the WP:ANI thread just a few days ago in which I showed her to be hiding POV edits under misleading edit summaries, there is place for doubt in this regard. All cries here and elsewhere as though I called somebody anti-Semitic, are baseless and obvious attempts by the usual editors at discrediting me. Debresser (talk) 01:23, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

@Sandstein I struck out "anti-Jewish, as soon as Nishidani pointed out to me the problem with that term. How many more times do I have to say that? I changed it to "anti-Jewish/Israeli", because in the framework of the political situation in the Israel-Palestine area, the problem is between the Jewish Israelis and the Arab Palestinians. In other words, I made it unequivocally clear that I was referring to the political issue only. See also admin GoldenRing's comment to your post. Debresser (talk) 14:28, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

@Nishidani I never "followed" you to Shuafat. That article is on my watchlist since May 2016. Please do not demonize the enemy. Debresser (talk) 14:30, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

@All Regarding my edit with the edit summary "The source does not say "no longer", just states a different opinion." All editors who are crying to high heavens how this was a mistake, conveniently ignore that I was the first to acknowledge the mistake in my following edit: More true. So let's simply ignore all those who raise that issue (like Nishidani and Johnuniq). Debresser (talk) 14:32, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Statement by Seraphim System

@SpacemanSpiff: I think the idea of an Aspersions restriction is not a bad one, as so many discussions in this area do seem to focus more on the alleged POV of an editor, then the content of the edits or WP:RS. But there are a few problems - how would it be enforced? Tying it to allegations of Nationality would not seem to address the particular problems in this area where so many of the aspersions are worded as "anti-Jewish" or "anti-Zionist" or "anti-Israel" — I'm not sure if this is different from the Pakistan/India area, but in ARBPIA we don't really see aspersions about actual nationality as often as we see aspersions about alleged political or ideological POV (anti-Zionist, anti-Jewish, anti-Israel) — calling someone "anti-Jewish/Israeli" is not a statement about their nationality. This would really have to be specific to the problems in this area, which may not be identical to problems in other area ("Indian nationalist POV" etc.) It would be like, if one side were saying "You are an Indian nationalist" and the other was saying "You are anti-Indian nationalist" — if this proposal isn't worded precisely, it would go from being potentially beneficial to an absolute disaster that could exacerbate systemic bias in the area over a semantics issue - for example most Misplaced Pages editors are male, most are from Christian-majority countries, most are English speakers - so a Muslim woman's POV, for example, would be a net benefit to Misplaced Pages, because this group is severely underrepresented. In the India/Pakistan section, our own figures show participation is quite healthy due to the English language education in those countries. But this is not the case most Muslim majority countries, so we have to consider that those who are trying to improve content related to Palestine are usually engaged in a good faith effort to balance the encyclopedia. I would recommend broader discussion about the specifics before something like this is implemented, and not simply leaving the implementation open to interpretation. Seraphim System 04:51, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

Statement by Power~enwiki

Regarding the specific content dispute: I'm not sure that this neighborhood should be portrayed as having an independent history from East Jerusalem. Regarding the editors involved; they might all need a topic-ban based on the continuing hostility at Talk:Shuafat. Power~enwiki (talk) 02:33, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

I note a recent AN/I thread involving these editors that had no action. Power~enwiki (talk) 02:33, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

User:No More Mr Nice Guy has taken offense to my reversion of one of his edits here that was clearly in violation of Arbitration rules and had already been reverted once. Power~enwiki (talk) 03:22, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

Statement by Nableezy

Statement by Nishidani

• I have come back after a month’s suspension to edit the I/P area after this judgement, brought by Debresser. While surprised by that judgement, as is my rule, I did not contest it. On returning I undertook to strictly conform to the rules I was judged to have violated.

• Stating I intended to resume work here immediately generated a comment by Debresser, itself innocuous.noting my return as though it were newsworthy, he then added that I had failed to live up to my word not to return. This elicited a sneering comment by the editor he linked to. That is the background.

• (1) I started to work on the article on Shuafat. Debresser immediately took my presence there as evidence I was angling to clash with him. Apart from the needless WP:AGF violation imputing to me that I was seeking a pretext to attack him, the assertion is demonstrably counterfactual. Since 2008, I have edited the Shuafat page 23 times whereas Debresser has made just 6 edits since May 2016. Likewise I have made 67 edits to the talk page (42.14% of the total) and Debresser only appeared there after I advanced a proposal. If one must make an inference it would be that, upset by my return, Debresser followed me to that page and sought a confrontation, accusing me of seeking one. He repeats this in his first reply above, accusing me of doing what I think he did, 'escalating' things. Indeed.

• I made a single edit, introducing the most recent scholarly source I could find to clarify an issue and Debresser immediately rewrote my wording, in a way that was openly provocative. I can take any amount of niggling, but I am extremely impatient with source falsification. His edit summary falsified the facts, since it denied the source used the words ‘no longer’. The source uses those words twice. Falsifying a source is a very serious thing, or used to be considered so. Interfering with my first edit on blatantly false grounds looks provocative. I raised the issue of source falsification on the talk page, asking D for an explanation.

• Debresser answered with a personal attack accusing me of engaging in WP:DRAMA, and he ignored clarifying the point and simply told me to to shut up (‘be quiet for a while!.’.

• (2)I went to the Archaeology of Israel page. There was an old problem there. 2 editors, myself and User:Poliocretes were in favour of mentioning a third of the artifacts dug up in that field annually are Christian. Debresser alone has reverted all efforts to add the item. To resolve this old problem, I set up an RfC for external comment. I noted – it is verifiable on the talk page – that despite 2 editors being in favour and only Debresser opposed – he kept reverting it off the page. Hence my request for external imput. Debresser’s reaction was to personalize this,also here andhere by citing a statement regarding the edit on this by User:GoldenRing at AE which earned me a suspension, as if that remark evened opinion to 2/2. I put up an RfC to resolve a conflict, and Debresser kept on referring to that AE suspension, as if it invalidated my proposal, and the RfC.

• (3) Soon after, as I tried to keep the argument focused, Debresser expressed diffidence about my whole outlook as an editor by insinuating I and the other editor were anti-semitic. That is one strong implication of referring to an 'anti-Jewish camp' on that page. It cannot refer to anyone else.

• This was duly retractedat my request, signifying D realized it was inappropriate. A day later however, disconcertingly, he retracted his retraction here andfinissed it with a variation adding anti-Israeli as a further innuendo. For the record the article on Antisemitism uses the word ‘anti-Jewish’ as synonymous with anti-semitic.

• I asked the editor to strike out the offensive smear again. I also held off from Friday to late Saturday from raising this issue in consideration of the Sabbath, intervened to ask Huldra to give Debresser more time, and requested an indisputably neutral and level-headed I/P hand, Kingsindian to put in a word with Debresser to erase the offensive remark. Unfortunately, as I discovered this morning, it was too late.

• To sum up, Debresser, challenging my return, followed me to Shuafat and falsified the source I used while messing up the text and (2) started baiting me about my putative 'anti-Jewish' attitude, admitted it should be retracted, then reinserted the offending words, and added 'anti-israel' as well, and refused to budge on the issue when asked to cancel the offensive language. It is, in both cases I believe, evidence of the WP:IDIDNOTHEARTHAT approach identified by Lord Roem a year ago. Nishidani (talk) 09:52, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

'anti-Jewish, anti-Zionist and anti-Israeli are regularly conflated by both sides of the Arab-Israeli dispute.

@GoldenRing.This is wildly inaccurate. You are saying those who are critical of Israel's policies regarding Palestinians confuse 'anti-Jewish, anti-Zionist, and anti-israeli'. That is not their language at all. To the contrary serious critics are pertinaciously exact in distinguishing Jews, Zionism, and Israel, whereas their opponents conflate them.

I'd like some explanation as to why being defamed as hostile to Jews and to Israel is a piffling offense. Nishidani (talk) 12:50, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

@Sandstein. I have difficulty in seeing how a denial a given source has two words, when anyone clicking on the page can see that the source repeats those two words twice, is a content dispute. Debresser can dispute the content of the article. Disputing the known, independently verifiably content of the source page is not a content dispute. It is falsifying the evidence. In the old days, editors were banned at sight for doing that.Nishidani (talk) 12:50, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

User:Icewhiz. Please focus. The material you cited confirms that conflating 'anti Jewish', 'Anti-Zionist' and 'anti-Israel' is what one side, pro-Israeli, does. GoldenRing was making a different claim, that both sides do this. As all close readers of the topic know, this is not correct. It is a highly political and rhetorical stratagem to conflate criticism of Israeli policies (not Israel) with being anti-Jewish and/or anti-Israeli and/or even anti-Zionist (I can name off the cuff many Jewish Zionists who are critical of those policies. Please don't add to the initial confusion.Nishidani (talk) 14:29, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

NMMGG. Your ideas about anti-Zionism don't jell with the evidence at Anti-Zionism or better still Timeline of anti-Zionism. It has a long and very intricate history within modern Jewish thought, and violently 'dismantling' Israel has nothing to do with its maincurrents. Just to clarify since there's a lot of confusion around here on terminology.Nishidani (talk) 19:58, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

As to a bunch of editors trying to disconnect 'ancient Jewish heritage from today's Jews', don't blame editors for trying to keep Misplaced Pages updated on contemporary scholarship, in Israel or elsewhere, by Jewish and non-Jewish scholars. No one I know here who might be put in that dock cites anything but the technical literature, which, unfortunately is generally ignored in the public sphere, and therefore, to those unfamiliar with, can seem disconcerting.Nishidani (talk) 20:08, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

NMMGG. Since you apparently (a) have dozens of examples of how a 'group' of editors secretly remove and meddle with texts (suddenly this secret is revealed) (b) and you anticipate that your interpretation of what I might say regarding any one example will take it as mere 'spin', it is pointless answering, except in these terms: if you look at the last thousand edits of any of that 'group', you will find an extremely high percentage of the edits are reffed and linked to academic publications. If you look at what other editors -the revert and tweak school- are doing, this use of high RS plummets. But this is wasting AE time. I have stated my views sufficiently.Nishidani (talk) 21:34, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Statement by Johnuniq

I confirmed that Nishidani's claim of "source falsification" is correct. Debresser changed the meaning of Nishidani's edit five minutes after Nishidani made it, using edit summary 'The source does not say "no longer", just states a different opinion'. The source () uses "no longer" twice in the first paragraph, and it unequivocally sums up current knowledge, overturning an earlier finding from 1993 that was based on "general information". Describing that merely as a "different opinion" is highly misleading, and summarizing the source as "Others do not consider" falsifies what the source said. Standard procedure would be for Debresser to ask at WP:RSN about the reliablity of the source, a scholarly overview published in 2013 by Brill Publishers and written by Professor Rachel Hachlili from the Zinman Institute of Archaeology at the University of Haifa. Moreover, Talk:Shuafat#False edit summary shows unacceptable aggression from Debresser. Johnuniq (talk) 11:28, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Statement by Malik Shabazz

Statement by Kingsindian

I think Debresser did not mean to accuse Nishidani or Huldra of anti-Semitism, and most likely referred to a political POV. But their choice of words was bad and clumsy, and they should have struck it out when asked. I think Debresser doesn't realize even now that their usage was inflammatory. It might be simply be a language issue.

Leaving aside anti-Semitism issue, the charges about personal attacks are correct. As I said in the last AE request, some amount of heat is to be expected in this area (and other political areas). The questions which should be asked are the following. Does the overall discussion concentrate on the content? Are the participants trying to argue in good faith, and are amenable to compromise? I believe this is true (this was true of the last request as well, but the admins thought otherwise). This matter should simply not have escalated this far.

I don't think an indefinite ban would be proportionate to the offence. Something milder should be pursued first.

Finally, a word about the "source misrepresentation" issue. Debresser is clearly wrong in their edit summary. The source clearly uses the words; Debresser either didn't read carefully or didn't care, and didn't accept their error. They, however, did edit their own text in the article to mitigate some of the error (which is still not enough) Anyone can make a mistake, but one hopes that they accept it if it is pointed out. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 13:57, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Statement by Icewhiz

Statement by Nomoskedasticity

Statement by Beyond My Ken

Statement by No More Mr Nice Guy

Statement by K.e.coffman

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Debresser

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• The request is actionable. In calling another editor "anti-Jewish", which means the same as "anti-semitic", Debresser has personally attacked them, without providing, even when challenged here, appropriate evidence for such a charge. In addition, by insisting here that they meant to accuse the other editor of a political bias against Israel (for which they also do not provide evidence), they conflate opposition to Israel and opposition to Jews. Editors must comment on content, not on the contributor (WP:NPA). Such conduct is not acceptable, particular in this sensitive topic area. Considering Debresser's long list of blocks in this topic area, and a previous topic ban in July 2016, I intend to impose an indefinite topic ban. - As to the "source falsification" issue, the discussion at Talk:Shuafat#False edit summary indicates that this is probably more of a content dispute than a conduct issue, but there also Debresser uses a dismissive, aggressive tone ("be quiet for a while!"), which is also entirely inappropriate for a collegial, collaborative scholarly project such as ours.  Sandstein  12:05, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

• I'm more inclined to believe Debresser's explanation - anti-Jewish, anti-Zionist and anti-Israeli are regularly conflated by both sides of the Arab-Israeli dispute. It does still represent a beach of NPA - the comment is on editors and not on edits - but I don't think it necessarily amounts to the same as "anti-semitic". I'm still thinking about what is an appropriate response; the history is long, but the offense, to me, seems relatively minor. GoldenRing (talk) 12:26, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

• I would also remind editors commenting here that they are expected to assume good faith and edit collaboratively and constructively, even at AE. Recasting the evidence in your own words with the worst possible interpretation is a transparent assumption of bad faith and does not help your cause. GoldenRing (talk) 16:04, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

• I'm concerned by the fact that Debresser wrote "All I did was notice, that her stance on the Israeli-Palestine conflict is such which shows her to be on the Palestine side of these political matters" as an explanation for calling an editor "anti-Jewish/Israel", as if this were a zero-sum game between two sharply delineated parties. Such black-and-white thinking (no matter which side is black) is not only far from a useful characterisation of the conflict, it also makes it very hard to edit cooperatively with editors who do not share his position exactly. For me, this suggest a (temporary) topic ban. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:02, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
• I don't think this is actionable. While this topic area is rife with poor behavior on all sides (which Debresser is not innocent of), I'm inclined to believe the statement that Jew, Zionist and Israeli are often conflated. It is a personal attack, for sure, but I don't think an NPA block is warranted. This topic area is an inherently polarizing one, and accusing somebody of being against one partisan side is poor behavior, but hardly an uncommon offense in these parts. If we sanction for this case, we should also sanction the majority of contributors to the topic area for making similar accusations at one point of another. The Wordsmith 03:35, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
• We have an "casting aspersions" restriction around the ethnicity/nationality of editors, including using their own self-declared status in arguments around the Kashmir conflict, enacted here after discussion -- Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive196#TripWire. Something like that could be implemented here too. I believe it's helped in that area and could be beneficial here too. In this particular case I share Stephan Schulz' opinion. —SpacemanSpiff 03:54, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
• I agree with Sandstein. This is actionable. It is more than reasonable to assume (given editing history) that Debresser understands the whole meaning of the term "anti-Jewish". You would have to be completely ignorant of 20th century history to not understand it. Accusing someone of being anti-Semitic (which is an equivalent term) without evidence, is a bright line, even in this disputed territory. Given the opportunity to strike it, they did at first, then ante'd up, parsing slightly, but confirming their original comment was fully intended. I think an indefinite topic ban is appropriate. Per some other comments, if this sort of comment hasn't been properly policed in the past, it is high time it was. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:10, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user

Debresser (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Debresser (talk) 19:53, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

Sanction being appealed

Topc ban from IP-related articles, see section above

Administrator imposing the sanction

GoldenRing (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator

Statement by Debresser

I would like to see this sanction lifted for six reasons: 1. The main reason for the topic ban was "Seeking input from a wider group of editors is good; classifying the input of those already involved based on their perceived politics or ethnicity is not." When an article relates to the Israeli-Palestine conflict, and all editors commenting are members of WP:WikiProject Palestine, then it makes imminent sense to ask for input from editors who are members of WP:WikiProject Israel, and forbidding to do so is neither in the best interest of creating good articles, nor is it fair. 2. The admins who stressed that I had previously written "anti-Jewish" have not sufficiently paid attention to the fact, that I struck that later and replaced it by "anti-Jewish/Israeli", which is clearly and only a political distinction, since the conflict is between Jewish Israelis and Arab Palestinians. See the "Jewish Israelis"? Therefore, Sandstein is mistaken when he says I called another editor "anti-Jewish", because I struck that, and rightfully so. Likewise Peacemaker67 is wrong when he says that the later edit is "confirming their original comment was fully intended". How can he even say that, when I have explicitly stated and explained so many time the precise opposite. 3. The reporting editor came with unclean hands, since she herself was reported just a few days before for hiding POV edits in the IP-area behind misleading edit summaries, and has herself violated 1RR in the IP-area just today: , for which she should be sanctioned herself. Or is the unclean hands doctrine not applicable on Misplaced Pages? 4. None of the admins related to my accusation that Huldra was just trying to get back to me for my report of her (as mentioned above), and she and Nishidani are just trying to get back to me for having Nishidani topic banned for one month (see Nishidani's talkpage, where he keep extensive records regarding my edits). 5. I think that the decision in the WP:AE case was made too early, within less than 48 hours. I think that more admins would have added their input, with some likely agreeing with the point of view of The Wordsmith, that this is not actionable. I myself would have reacted to comments by admins, and possibly been able to make them change their mind. Pressures from real life have prevented me from going online regularly, but less than 48 hours is not enough to fully discuss issues which, as the admins section itself clearly shows, are not unequivocal. 6. From the notification on my talkpage, I understand that my edit was perceived as WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior. Although I do understand where that comes from, please also see my edit in context. Huldra's edits, like and , are systematically trying to remove anything related to Jewish history from as many Israel and Palestine-related articles as possible. In view of such blatant POV-violations, how can one not acquire somewhat of a battleground attitude? And again, I think Huldra should be sanctioned for her editing. Debresser (talk) 19:53, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

@Nomoskedasticity I was at the time of that edit not aware of the ban. As you can see, I made that edit a few minutes before I noticed the notification on my talkpage and replied to it. In addition, if I had added a category, that would have been POV-pushing, but adding a See also is not. See also the stated rationale in the edit summary. Debresser (talk) 20:07, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

Statement by GoldenRing

I'm just off to bed, but here are some quick notes:

• Putting other editors into camps based on their politics, ethnicity, nationality, religion or whatever and refusing to accept consensus until particular factions are represented in a discussion is simply battleground behavior and this is what convinced me to sanction Debresser.
• I don't think that the behavior of others justifies battleground behavior, and IIRC WP:BATTLEGROUND spends some words making that point. However, I do find the behavior of others involved here troubling and I did consider other sanctions as well. In particular, I find the insistence that "anti-Jewish/anti-Israeli" necessarily means anti-semitic, after Debresser has repeatedly explained exactly what he meant, troubling, and I see here more repetitions of the same. Debresser has apologized for giving the impression that he meant anti-semitic, clarified that he did not and explained what he did mean. What he did mean it's still a policy violation, but IMO it should be left at that. Debresser's diffs presented here are a mixture; one replacing "Arab" with "Muslim" seems to me unambiguously misrepresenting a source, however arguing from two relatively benign diffs that someone is "systematically trying to remove anything related to Jewish history from as many Israel and Palestine-related articles as possible" is drawing a very long bow. If anyone feels inclined to hand out additional sanctions out of all this, they should not consider my close an impediment.
• Regarding the timing, I thought the report need closing as it was descending into considerably more heat than light.
• Regarding the input of other admins, while it's true that one admin argued for no action, is also true that another argued for an indefinite topic-ban. I remain opposed to an indefinite ban; I don't think the offense warrants it. Frankly, if this was a first offense, I would probably have let it go, too. It is not. I therefore also remain opposed to no action. GoldenRing (talk) 22:40, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

Statement by Huldra

• I have never objected to anyone asking any for more input from any Wikiproject, anyone reading my AE report will see that.
• My report was because off one word Debresser used about me, and one word only: "anti-Jewish", and using that together with "anti-Jewish/Israeli" does not make it better. "Anti-Jewish" is another word for "anti-Semitic", i.e., a racist.
• Debresser and I, like many old timers in the IP area, have a long history. (e.g. ), but I am not here in order to make AE reports, Im here to write history of the places in Israel/Palestine. If Debresser, or anyone else, thinks my edits here are sanctionable, then please start a separate AE report, otherwise I will not spend time on it.
• Debresser: you are so wrong if you think that my report was some kind of revenge report. I would have reported anyone who called me "anti-Jewish". Anyone. Huldra (talk) 21:32, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

• To Goldenring: my replacing "Arab" with "Muslim" ..that is according to source. When I first started editing here, the only data available for the Village Statistics, 1945 was Hadawi. 2 or 3 years ago the original data was made available, through http://web.nli.org.il. (See references below.) Now, Hadawi joined "Muslim" and "Christian" into one group, called "Arab". Whenever I update a village article now, I add the original 1945 data, which specify whether the "Arabs" are "Muslim", or "Christian", or (more common): a mixture of both, Huldra (talk) 23:03, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
• As for that "anti-Jewish/anti-Israeli" not necessarily means anti-semitic, that is only a view from "one side of the divide." This is well known in the IP area. It is a bit as if I called an African American man for "boy", and then assured everyone that I had absolutely no insulting intention in doing so, Huldra (talk) 23:03, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

• Department of Statistics (1945). Village Statistics, April, 1945. Government of Palestine.
• Hadawi, Sami (1970). Village Statistics of 1945: A Classification of Land and Area ownership in Palestine. Palestine Liberation Organization Research Center.

Statement by Nishidani

I had no intention of commenting here, but seeing the following obliges me to:

I do find the behavior of others involved here troubling and I did consider other sanctions as well. I find the insistence that "anti-Jewish/anti-Israeli" necessarily means anti-semitic, after Debresser has repeatedly explained exactly what he meant, troubling,

This contextually suggests that I for one, in asserting that '"anti-Jewish/anti-Israeli" necessarily means anti-semitic', displayed 'troubling behavior.'

There are 2 points here.

• (a)You are perfectly within your rights to think this, but it implies both User:Sandstein here and User:Peacemaker67 here exhibited 'troubling behaviour', for they said exactly what several editors argued regarding this usage. I'm sure that was not your intent, but it is a clear implication. Arbs and editors are not separate classes when it comes to 'behaviour'.
• (b) All editors and admins are entitled to respect even if they do not accept another editor's specific claims though repeated. Repetition is not proof. Claims are one thing, evidence another. Personal explanations of what one means by a word don't prevail over established usage (I'm a philologist, and this is known as the Humpty Dumpty view of semiotics) If we introduce a rule of evidence saying that anyone who repeats what (s)he says (s)he meant to mean must be believed (on pain of doubters being considered liable to sanction if they remain sceptical), then arbitration would be automatically rendered otiose.Nishidani (talk) 09:26, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

ps.It was claimed I was a member of WP:WikiProject Palestine. I'm not. I've never in my life joined any association, group or collective, on principle. I have a peer-reviewed published record for criticism of the very idea of collective identity, and that is why any insinuation I am against an ethnic or national group troubles me, and having these incessant innuendoes thrown my way on Misplaced Pages appals me. Nishidani (talk) 09:33, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Debresser

• Editing Cave of the Patriarchs to add a "see also" for List of World Heritage Sites in Israel doesn't seem like a wise first edit following the imposition of the topic ban. (Key detail: Hebron is not located in Israel, so the edit seems like POV-pushing at best.) Nomoskedasticity (talk) 20:04, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

Result of the appeal by Debresser

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• To be fair, I will try to cover these point by point. Your first point is irrelevant, as you were not sanctioned because you sought a larger audience. It was how you did so that caused the problem. The quote you use was not used in the closing of the case. Your second point isn't convincing as an argument to reverse the sanction. Admin are free to interpret your actions using their best judgement, and the fact that you wrote something that you later had to strike tells me that any admin who saw a problem was being reasonable. As for your third and fourth points, see WP:NOTTHEM, which talks about blocks, but the concept is still valid here. As for point 5, let me explain something that is understandably misunderstood about this board: WP:AE is not WP:ANI. There is no requirement for consensus, there is no minimum time. Admin are free to sanction without considering any opinions by anyone. When an admin sanctions at WP:AE, it is not due to consensus. it is a unilateral action, even if they often choose to listen to others before taking action. That portion of your fifth point is without merit. As for Wordsmith's point, I actually agree with him that we have to be careful to not over-sanction because most of the players in the Arab/Israel area have a bias and it takes a lot of give and take to produce neutrality. Had this been an indef topic ban, I might be convinced, but it isn't. The purpose of the sanction is two fold: first, to allow editors who aren't causing problems to edit without distraction (it isn't just about the problem editor, you see), and secondly, to provide an incentive to problem editors to not cause problems in the future. This makes it preventative. That said, a two month topic ban is not extraordinarily long, particularly for someone who has been sanctioned for various infractions, more than a few times in the past. After reviewing your claims and the evidence available, the actions taken by GoldenRing appear to be based on the merits and are clearly within administrative discretion. I would choose to decline this appeal due a lack of merit. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 21:14, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
• I would decline the appeal and would have imposed an indefinite topic ban for the reasons given in my comments in the enforcement request; and this should be considered as a result of this meritless appeal. That Debresser insists that they did not write "anti-Jewish" and that this does not mean "antisemitic" is disconcerting and another indication that this editor is not suited to editing this topic area. Debresser ignores that calling another editor anti-whatever personalizes a dispute that is supposed to be about content, and is itself grounds for sanctions, whatever the "whatever" may be. The complaints against others are irrelevant here, see WP:NOTTHEM. (There is no "unclean hands" defense in enforcement practice: that defense is used in civil lawsuits, whereas this is not a legal proceeding and if it were, it would be a criminal or administrative one, not a civil one. We are enforcing conduct rules for the benefit of the community, not for the benefit of any individuals.)  Sandstein  21:49, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

  Since you participated in the admin discussion, not sure you would be uninvolved for the sake of review, although I don't disagree with your logic. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 21:55, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

Admins who have dealt with a matter only in an administrative capacity, as I have here in commenting on the original request, are not involved. See WP:INVOLVED.  Sandstein  05:05, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

• I think Sandstein pretty much nails my position on this. GoldenRing's actions were within discretion (as I belatedly wrote in the original case, I would have supported an indefinite ban), and I don't think this appeal has merit, and should be declined. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:23, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
• Decline. The comment, however intended, shows clear signs of an unfortunate battleground mentality. Further, although I would be willing to assume AGF that Debresser misspoke and meant "anti-Israeli", not "anti-Jewish", I note that he did not then: (a) apologise promptly; and (b) correct the latter to the former. Instead the amendment was to "anti-Jewish/Israeli", which I don't think makes it much better. It seems to me to needlessly maintain the originally problematic term in combination. Unless I have missed something, Huldra has still not received an apology for a post which she interpreted - and in my opinion reasonably interpreted - as an accusation of racism directed against her personally. The sanction appears a proportionate one in the circumstances. WJBscribe (talk) 14:26, 18 July 2017 (UTC)