Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 20:34, 21 July 2017

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Sean Spicer article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1, 2Auto-archiving period: 7 days

Individuals with a conflict of interest, particularly those representing the subject of the article, are strongly advised not to directly edit the article. See Misplaced Pages:Conflict of interest. You may request corrections or suggest content here on the Talk page for independent editors to review, or contact us if the issue is urgent.

Text and/or other creative content from this version of Sean Spicer was copied or moved into Alternative facts with this edit on 20:54, 22 January 2017. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Template:WikiProject Donald TrumpPlease add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Biography: Politics and Government This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography This article is supported by the politics and government work group. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Virginia Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Virginia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the U.S. state of Virginia on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.VirginiaWikipedia:WikiProject VirginiaTemplate:WikiProject VirginiaVirginia Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. United States: Rhode Island This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions. Template Usage Articles Requested! Become a Member Project Talk Alerts United StatesWikipedia:WikiProject United StatesTemplate:WikiProject United StatesUnited States ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by WikiProject Rhode Island.

Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to post-1992 politics of the United States and closely related people, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article: You may not make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on this article (except in limited circumstances) Changes challenged by reversion may not be reinstated without affirmative consensus on the talk page Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. Further information Enforcement procedures: Violations of any of these restrictions should be reported immediately to the arbitration enforcement noticeboard. Editors who are aware of this topic being designated a contentious topic and who violate these restrictions may be sanctioned by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offense. With respect to the WP:1RR restriction: Edits made solely to enforce any clearly established consensus are exempt from all edit-warring restrictions. Edits made which remove or otherwise change any material placed by clearly established consensus, without first obtaining consensus to do so, may be treated in the same manner as obvious vandalism. In order to be considered "clearly established" the consensus must be proven by prior talk-page discussion. Reverts of edits made by anonymous (IP) editors are exempt from the 1RR but are subject to the usual rules on edit warring. If you are in doubt, contact an administrator for assistance. Whenever you are relying on one of these exemptions, you should refer to it in your edit summary and, if applicable, link to the discussion where consensus was clearly established. The contentious topics procedure can be used against any editor who repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process. Contentious topics sanctions can include blocks, topic-bans, or other restrictions. If you are unsure if your edit is appropriate, discuss it here on this talk page first. Remember: When in doubt, don't revert!

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Sean Spicer article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1, 2Auto-archiving period: 7 days

Long lead

I think the lead may be a bit too long, going into too much detail. His first statement to the press (apparently there is a distinction between statements and official press conferences) is probably the thing Spicer is best known for. (He also reminded me of Saddam's spokesman, independently of commentators who came with the same association.) But the third paragraph is a bit overdone. Bever (talk) 19:49, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Agreed, it could definitely use a trim. Trying to cram summaries of press conferences for press secretaries into leads is undue and results in needlessly long leads, as you said. The "Baghdad Bob" opinions is also possibly BLP problematic, but I'd have to take a closer look at the sources. Hidden Tempo (talk) 22:57, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

What does this mean?

Trump had reportedly been dissatisfied with Spicer's performance as White House Press Secretary for some time, however it is not believed that this stance was not connected to Spicer's resignation. It's very unclear. Armyporlibe (talk) 16:49, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

I agree. He did not resign because Trump was not thrilled with his work. Peter K Burian (talk) 17:03, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/21/us/politics/sean-spicer-resigns-as-white-house-press-secretary.html And other news media are also providing the same reason, although they may just be using the facts developed by the New York Times.

e.g. CNBC "White House press secretary Sean Spicer abruptly resigned Friday after opposing President Donald Trump's appointment of Anthony Scaramucci as communications director. The New York Times first reported the news. The president asked Spicer to stay in his role, but Spicer said appointing Scaramucci was a major mistake, the Times reported, citing a person with direct knowledge of the conversation." http://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/21/sean-spicer-resigns-as-white-house-press-secretary-after-objecting-to-scaramucci-hire-nyt.html

The Hill "The New York Times first broke the news of Spicer's resignation, reporting that he told the president that hiring Scaramucci was a mistake." http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/343148-priebus-after-spicer-resignation-says-all-good-here-at-white-house Peter K Burian (talk) 17:27, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

False statements

Hidden Tempo:

• You twice removed (edit 1, edit 2) the text about the false statements. Given that this was stable text in the article, you should not have done that. See the large notice atop this page: " All editors must obtain consensus on the talk page of this article before reinstating any edits that have been challenged (via reversion)." You made an edit, which was challenged. If you want to open a discussion, then we can do that, but in the meantime you should self-revert.

• You are simply incorrect that "this sentiment is not reflected in the source material" - Did you read the sources cited? They clearly support the statement made; the Washington Post directly refers to "a series of false and misleading claims":

As press secretary, Spicer drew criticism for making numerous false or controversial statements.

References

1. Kessler, Glenn (January 22, 2017). "Spicer earns Four Pinocchios for false claims on inauguration crowd size". The Washington Post. Archived from the original on January 22, 2017. Retrieved January 23, 2017. He managed to make a series of false and misleading claims in service of a relatively minor issue....Spicer earns Four Pinocchios, but seriously, we wish we could give five. {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
2. Danny Vinik (January 24, 2017). "Spicer makes misleading voter fraud claim to defend Trump's false voter fraud claim". Politico. Pressed for those studies, Spicer then offered a falsehood of his own
3. Aaron Blake (April 18, 2017). "The White House's misleading statements about Trump's 'armada' heading to North Korea". Washington Post.

Also tagging MelanieN in case she wants to comment. --Neutrality 17:51, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Hidden Tempo: Thank you for self-reverting. I do appreciate it. Neutrality 18:10, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Hi, Neutrality. You're right, that's probably 1RR-problematic. Sorry about that, guess I got caught up in the edit frenzy that usually comes with these current event articles lol. I did indeed read those sources searching for material that supports the "criticized for making numerous false statements" content. There was none. The first source says the inauguration crowd size statement was false, which is already covered later in the article. The Politico article states that Spicer made a "misleading" claim about voter fraud and characterized a study he cited as a "falsehood", but says nothing about criticism or "numerous" falsehoods. The other WaPo article doesn't even use the word "false" anywhere. However, even if any of these sources said anything about "numerous false statements," none of them say anything about Spicer being "criticized" for making the false statements. I suppose it would be accurate to say that "It was reported that Spicer made false statements regarding the inauguration crowd size," but is that lead-worthy? The issue was undoubtedly highly controversial, but I think the phrase "numerous false statements" should be sourced much better if it's to go into the lead, which per MOS:BLPLEAD it probably shouldn't even if true. Hidden Tempo (talk) 18:18, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Hidden Tempo: Would you accept simply dropping the word "numerous"? As to 'drew criticism," this is supported by the first cite (Kessler/four Pinocchios), but if that is a concern we could reword to "During his tenure as White House presss secretary, Spicer..." Neutrality 18:24, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

I think that's definitely preferable to the existing material. Do you feel it's inappropriate/POV to make clear that media outlets are the ones making these allegations? From my perspective it seens somewhat misleading to allow WikiVoice to state that Spicer drew criticism without specifying where this criticism originated, given the sensitive nature of including material like that in the lead of a BLP? Just tossing ideas out there, feel free to correct me if I've got it wrong. The "During his tenure" sounds more neutral and accurate in my opinion, though. Hidden Tempo (talk) 18:48, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Proposal: "During his tenure as White House press secretary, Spicer made a number of public statements that were false or controversial." Better? Neutrality 18:53, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Good with me! I would probably only say "controversial or false," since there was likely a much higher percentage of controversial statements than false, but maybe that's just a stylistic difference. Thanks for the discussion. Hidden Tempo (talk) 19:44, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

I implemented the change. Thank you for your courtesy and the discussion. Neutrality 20:30, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

I concur. I felt that "criticized" was justified, but this agreement between the two of you (and thank you both for acting so collaboratively and courteously) is a perfectly acceptable alternative. --MelanieN (talk) 20:34, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Should the February 2022 semi-protection lock be removed?

Spicer will only be WH Press Secretary until August this year. I don't see the point of locking the article for the next 5 years now that Spicer's only got a month left.Mogomaniac (talk) 18:07, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Maybe not for the next five years, but certainly for the next month. Then we can see what the activity is and consider unprotecting it. --MelanieN (talk) 20:27, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 July 2017

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Change "serves as White House Press Secretary" to "served as White House Press Secretary" 50.206.35.98 (talk) 19:06, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Declined. His resignation is not effective until next month. Neutrality 19:07, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Change Position?

When will it be confirmed that Sean Spicer is no longer the Press Secretary, and instead be changed to Sarah Huckabee. CaptainGummyBearz (talk) 20:04, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

This is a kind of interesting period of limbo. All the sources say that "Spicer resigns," so indeed he has resigned. However, he's not leaving the White House until some time next month. As Scaramucci has announced, Spicer has been or is going to be replaced by Huckabee Sanders. I believe it's correct to say that Spicer is currently the WH Press Sec, but is no longer performing the duties of that position. We should probably leave the language in its current state, in my view. Hidden Tempo (talk) 20:16, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

I agree. We need to wait for announcements. --MelanieN (talk) 20:29, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

• Biography articles of living people
• All unassessed articles
• Start-Class biography articles
• Start-Class biography (politics and government) articles
• Unknown-importance biography (politics and government) articles
• Politics and government work group articles
• WikiProject Biography articles
• C-Class Virginia articles
• Low-importance Virginia articles
• WikiProject Virginia articles
• C-Class United States articles
• Unknown-importance United States articles
• C-Class United States articles of Unknown-importance
• C-Class Rhode Island articles
• Unknown-importance Rhode Island articles
• WikiProject Rhode Island articles
• WikiProject United States articles