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arbitration

I'm sorry to say it, but I'm pretty sure this is the only option left. This discussion has been so repetitive it's unbelievable. The mediation cabal has all but ceased, and the mediation of this talk page has failed. The RFC also did not work. I can see no other way to reslve the issue other than ArbCom. What does everyone else think? --LifeEnemy 21:25, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

It's a pretty useless process. Mostly Admins listing Hebrew as a language, or displaying Israeli symbols on their user pages will respond they have no problem with the biased edits. Worst-case they ban you for suggesting the article needed comment or some type of oversight. Sarastro777 09:23, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

. So much for WP:AGF. -- Avi 13:13, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

the funniest is when the POV pusher Markovich actually blames others for imaginary POV with bad faith and breaking WP:NPOV, WP:CIV, WP:NPA, WP:BLP, Misplaced Pages:Categorization of people, Misplaced Pages:Consensus, and Misplaced Pages:Categorization, which he broke all. Amoruso 13:19, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Huh, I guess you take every opportunity to make up false accusations just because you don't agree with me. Did you even notice that this topic is about arbitration before you started with your ill-considered behavior? Markovich292 16:57, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

If you can't see the connection between your bad faith behaviour and what Avi said, it's your problem. Amoruso 18:04, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

If you didn't notice, Avi responded to Sarastro777's comments; you are just trying to find an excuse to take your jabs at me. If you can't stay on topic, you could, at the very least, keep your behavior civil and not make bogus accusations of others breaking policy. Markovich292 21:27, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Amoruso, shut up. You're just being rude now. It's completely uncalled for.

Please, let's just stop all this bickering. --LifeEnemy 22:26, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Please don't tell other users to shut up. It was very called for. Markovich has been attacking me constantly. He drove Thuran X away and he's trying the same tactics on other users simply to enforce his POV . Amoruso 19:13, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

You haven't responded to polite requests to cease incivil behavior. I'm afraid my response was warranted. Your above comments are filled with so much bad faith that it makes me uneasy. Without any provocation in this section, you have made a personal attack against Markovich, and then accuse him of attacking you constantly. You have become very disruptive to this conversation, please, take a step back and cool off. --LifeEnemy 23:29, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

<sigh> . It is obvious you're attempting to make this something that it isn't because you agree with Markovich on the content. That's dishonest. It's sad really. Tell others to shut up and talk about incivility with them. Amoruso 23:34, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "make this something it's not", could you clarify? Also, I dislike that you are accusing me of bad faith. I never said that I was a perfect person, but you have been incivil, especially in the comment I was responding to. If you noticed, I also asked everyone to stop bickering right afterward. All I want is for this discussion to continue in an amicable manner. --LifeEnemy 00:24, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

A compromise seems to be somewhat close now, arbitration is most likely not needed. Awesome. --LifeEnemy 01:54, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Wipe the slate clean

Let's just forget our opinions on the subject and move on. Just discuss ways to make this article better, not your personal feelings on the subject. I've read some of the material discussed on this talk page and it's horrendous and rather immature. Again, stop the opinions and discuss the facts. Sr13 04:06, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Just so you know, when I brought up the issue of categorization a month ago, the facts are exactly what it was about for me. I fully expected that if wikipedia policy supported the categorization, editors would explain why and show the facts to prove me wrong. Since then though, the debate has made it clear to many editors that adding the category at this time is POV and not supported by policy. Myself and other "pro-policy" people had tried many times to ellicit facts rather than opinions, but as you see (presuming you read the whole debate), we basically never got anything but opinions. Thats why the other side won't just "stop the opinions"; their entire argument is based on them.

It would be nice to have this article unlocked and wipe the slate clean, but at least one of the "pro-categorization" editors shows no intention of respecting policy if that were to happen. I think that is the biggest reason why this is still going on, and why at least one person supports arbitration. Markovich292 06:30, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Interesting document found

I found this article about Iran trying to initiate a rapprochment with Israel, recognizing its existence in a proposal to the United States in 2003. The report claims that Iran's peace proposal with Israel was not accepted by the United States. I think this is some important piece of information that needs to be used in these articles. But I dont know where and in what article we could fit this in best. Anybody have any ideas? Please do use the article as reference anywhere you see fit.

The article:

"Iran offered 'to make peace with Israel'" by Gareth Porter. Asia Times, May 2006. Link: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HE26Ak01.html

Thanks.--Zereshk 22:12, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. I believe this is a fine article. --LifeEnemy 07:21, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Disputes Resolved?

I believe that the arguments have ceased and in the near future, if anyone wishes to request unprotection, go right ahead. Wait one to two weeks to check if anyone else pops up that has a dispute. Sr13 05:23, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

It seems that MA saying he's not anti-semetic and possibly the article above (about Iran proposing peace with Israel) pretty much put the nail in the coffin on the category. --LifeEnemy 07:19, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

I am hopeful that the arguments have ceased, and I suppose unprotection is what is best for the article at this point. My only fear is that no matter what the circumstances are when it is unprotected, the category in question will be added without regard for the discussion that has gone on here. Below I have included a section of the debate that stands unresolved, so maybe this will help reach an end ASAP. Markovich292 23:39, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Even if this article does go unprotected, someone else could open up another dispute based on opinion and this could start a new chain of disputes. People have to realize that this is not a talk page where you can debate opinions. You have to discuss what's been placed on the article, not your personal POV. Sr13 01:48, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

you're going around in pathetic circles again. What you see as anti semite is your opinion, this is a term made which is open to discussion. You still did not say what is anti semite in your opinion or explained why we should care what your definition of the term is. When the world community has a consencus over a term like this, then that's how it is determined. This is with every issue in the world. Amoruso 08:26, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

You fail to accept that MA has done or said nothing anti-semitic by the wikipedia definition. "People saying so" doesn't count. Any source you cite is a)opinion or b)MA saying something that you think makes him anti semitic, but fails to prove "prejudice against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group." This is going in circles because I keep telling you that and you keep finding reasons to ignore it. Markovich292 08:50, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

ha, now you're citing wikipedia ? (not that it helps you, in fact it refutes you). but anyway, wikipedia also says : "Holocaust denial is generally considered an anti-Semitic conspiracy theory." like I said - discussion over. Amoruso 09:09, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Two points: 1) "generally considered" (not always), 2) he did not deny the Holocaust // Liftarn

1) lol 2) rotfl but "Holocaust is a zionist myth that didn't exist" is indeed not denying it. Amoruso 09:27, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Another reason that this is going in circles...we went over this before. Liftarn is right, "Generally cosidered" means that there are enough people, such as yourself, to conclude it is a widespread sentiment but is not necessarily true. In other words, not all holocaust deniers are anti-semites. Oh, and I find it funny that you say wikipedia refutes me, but don't even say why. Do enlighten me... Markovich292 09:29, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

the best compromise is what I suggested far earlier and that's adding the "Anti Semitism" category as opposed to the "Anti Semitic People" category. This tells the user that anti-semitism is being discussed in the article. If some people think that MA has allegdly denied this then that is addressed in the article. This solution has worked for other articles where the status of the anti semitism of the person was disputed. This solution is OK with me, though with other users who stand firm that MA is anti-semitic (like Thuran X, Avi and Mantanmoreland ) it doesn't. Still , I think it's a good compromise. No doubt, a certain user will attack me again with his bad faith comments and condescending disruptive behaviour like he does all the time, but it doesn't change the fact that it's a good compromise. Amoruso 08:17, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

So what you're saying is, even with a concensus that this is not an acceptable solution, you still think that your "compromise" is the best idea? Markovich292 17:04, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

What are you talking about ? Or is this another lie like your false allegations against me based on your disruptive behaviour ? Amoruso 18:02, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

If you don't "undertand" though it's not a difficult issue to grasp, I'm proposing this as a compromise. Which I think is best. Perhaps other users also in the camp that advocated (the truth) that MA is anti-semitic will agree as well. Some of them were ambivalent about it, and maybe some on the camps that think he isn't anti-semitic (those that really honestly think that, not you...) will also agree to the compromise. And for once, reply only with something productive please.Amoruso 18:07, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I would call my question above productive, afterall it got an answer: "Which I think is best..." I have established that you still think your "compromize" is "best" even though only you seem to support it. I even got an incivil comment to boot that just happens to show your bad attitude toward me: "those that really honestly think that, not you..."

"This solution is OK with , though with other users who stand firm that MA is anti-semitic (like Thuran X, Avi and Mantanmoreland ) it ." I don't think anything more is needed to be a "productive" reply considering that quote from your own statement backs me up. Markovich292 21:53, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Wow, you really need to cool down since you are making statements like that regrading a perfectly legitimate post. Markovich292 21:57, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Nothing was legitimate about it. I'm proposing a "compromise" which obviously I think is "best" which is the reason I'm proposing it. The proposal needs to be raised so people can think about it and see if they're convinced about it. Like I wrote, I believe most if not all will be convinced about it, except for certain POV pushers. I believe the users I indicated (Thuran X, Avi and Mantanmoreland) will all accept this as a temporary solution actually, and others will too. It's the nature of the compromise, and what I wrote meant to show that they still believe MA is anti-semitic (like me) and therefore no decision was made a compromise like the one I proposed is badly needed. The fear of these users is that a compromise will help endorse the lie that MA is not anti-semitic and weaken the stand. But it's the nature of a compromise to have some middleground, which is what I also thought was legitimate with "new anti-semitic people" and you attacked me about it using bad faith earlier. The best indeed is simply to leave the "anti-semitism" category which is already used in situations like this. Amoruso 19:18, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

There is nothing legitimate about asking if you think your compromise is the best idea even knowing that nobody else supported it when you mentioned it before...now I've heard everything. Anyway, the "best indeed" here is not for you to propose a "compromise" that just so happens to be almost exactly the same as your original argument. (Proposal for mutually acceptable compromise can be seen below). Markovich292 22:11, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

"...the lie that MA is not anti-semitic..." Can you please stop pushing your POV as fact?? I'm not against discussing this, but when you make sweeping statements like that it makes it terribly hard to work with you. --LifeEnemy 23:37, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

that's something very awkard to say . Obviously this is my opinion here which I believe is a fact. No problem with saying that. Markovich said the opposite many times in much a similar way. Actually looking at it, it wasn't even my opinion but the opinion of those which I cited. I'm sorry they don't think the same way as you ! geez. Amoruso 23:40, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

You're twisting my words to discredit me, which I don't appreciate. You weren't even citing anyone, you were making a statement about your own opinions. Also, I don't think I've seen similar statement before on this page. --LifeEnemy 00:30, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not twisting anythign and you're aware of that. I made a statement about the opinion of the other users. Their statements believing that it's whitewashing not to say MA is anti-semitic etc is all over the page. Amoruso 00:54, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

But you're making it seem like I dislike people for not agreeing with me, which is not true, and that is twisting someone's word. I only disagree with people (anyone) who state their opinion as a fact, which I've run into more than once. Things like "(this band) is just bad, that's all there is to it" and "I don't like your music, so you're a shitty band". I guess you could call it a "pet peeve" if you wanted to. And, just to clarify, the wording of your comments did not imply citing the opinions of others. You share those opinions anyway, don't you? --LifeEnemy 01:06, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Amoruso, do you realize that you're just inciting more bad feeling when you make comments like "a certain user will attack me again..." "...another lie like your false allegations against me..." and "...that advocated (the truth) that MA is anti-semitic..."? You're either being uncivil, or pushing you POV as truth again. Please, stop being so uncivil. I'm not trying to single you out, either.

On anther note, could provide a few links to pages with the anti-semetism category that are of people? I'd like to see if your compromise would fit, rather than just deciding on it without any background info. --LifeEnemy 22:43, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

And as for you LifeEnemy, it is bad faith behavior to act all "neutral" when in fact you're supporting Markovich's opinion, and you have made no comment regarding his comments (for example he has made the comment earlier of the nature : "a certain user seems intent on disrupting/not respecting..." ) nor made any "warnings" in his user page, so please do not make any statements like that, they don't sound honest. Not to mention you actually seemed to endorse his blatant lie concerning "Here are just some of the policies that he has violated already, or is trying to violate by adding the category: WP:NPOV, WP:CIV, WP:NPA, WP:BLP, Misplaced Pages:Libel, Misplaced Pages:Categorization of people, Misplaced Pages:Consensus, and Misplaced Pages:Categorization." Amoruso 19:18, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I am greatly offended. You have no right to accuse me of bad faith. I am trying to be objective, which is something that is desparately needed in this discussion. It's true I didn't respond to that comment, and I haven't responded to all of your comments either. I speak to you because recently you have been making many attacks against other users and have been increasily hostile, and you comments have been more offensive or direct than most. Not to mention Markovich's comment was much less insulting in nature.

I have been acting "neutral" in that I want you AND everyone else to stop the personal attacks and childish behavior. I have asked that countless times and everyone seems intent on ignoring me and acting immature. I have never tried to act as though I didn't have an opinion. Rather, I have been trying to get everyone to calm down so we can continue this discussion in a mature fashion. If you want to accuse me of bad faith for that, fine. But you're acting in the worst of bad faith by doing so.

As for Markovich's accusations, I don't agree with all of them, but you have obviously violated CIVIL and NPA. Many other people have also, so I'm not singling you out, but it still doesn't make it right. As for the others related to adding the cat, you shouldn't be angry about those. Those are the subject of this discussion, and obviously each side thinks the other will violate those policies. Although he could have brought it up in a friendlier way, it's nothing to get upset about. Don't be so sensitive. --LifeEnemy 23:57, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

You're greatly offended but you tell me not to be sensitive ? You took Markovich's opinion which is the reason you DID single me out by addressing your possts to me and not to him. Anyway, you were guilty of incivility too just before. but since I have no desire to keep this going.... whatever. 00:31, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

'm offened because you're accusing me of bad faith (serious accusation), but I'm telling you not to be offended by the point of the discussion, which is subject to interpretation (very minor point in the scheme of things). Did you even read why I responded to you and not him? Do you agree or disagree with my assesment? AND, why didn't you address any of the positive points of my comment? Did you just pick out the bad parts? Please, I'm trying to push this conversation back towards civility and relevence to the article, but I can only do so much on my own, I need you to try as well. --LifeEnemy 00:46, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

So it's ok for you to be offended and not me ? I missed the part where you adequately explained why you turned to me and not to Markovich. His comment were just as recent and just (actually more, seeing that my weren't really) as insulting. Anyway, I'm willing to move on which is what I was willing to to do all along. You'd notice it is Markovich's behaviour to keep this up all the time. Before me, he did the same against Thuran X who couldn't take it any longer. Amoruso 00:52, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

You accuse me of bad faith, obviously I should be offended. You would be to. Let me clarify my earlier statement: You shouldn't be sensitive about Markovich accusing you of breaking those policies. All but CIVIL and NPA (which you have broken) are, as I said, the substance of this discussion and they are subject to interpretation, meaning it's only natural he would think that you would break those if you add the category (I would agree on that point). Those particular accusations are hardly against you anway, they're against adding the cat.

Markovich's comment that you cited did not seem that insulting, which is why I didn't address it. I only told you to shut up because the comments I read seemed very negative, and I had asked you before to be more mindful of what you said.

One last thing. I would like to clarify something. Please tell me, do you think that you have been incivil at all in this conversation? --LifeEnemy 01:16, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

As for your question, indeed there are many people who are in this category. Kevin B. MacDonald, Arash Miresmaili (iranian), Joseph Massad, and others , see here : . This solution is best simply because it is appropriate in the category even if MA denys it and allegdly explains the difference between anti semitism and what he believes (which he didn't AFAIK but that's what some people claimed) - it deals with the issue and explores this issue. It is NPOV and so it's the best compromise, as a temporary solution atlesat to unlock the article. As you can see through the category, this doesn't blame MA in anything, and could even suggest he's a fighter against anti-semitism which is what people here suggested that he "loves Jews", per some other articles. It says that the issue of anti-semitism is relevant for the article, nothing more. Amoruso 19:28, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

It is quite unnecessary to add this article to Category:Anti-Semitism because Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Israel is already listed. That is a dedicated article that goes further into the allegations of anti-semitism. Compare this situation to Israel and human rights issues. Israel is not listed under Category:Human rights to 'tell the user that being discussed in the article,' but the main article, Human rights in Israel is listed under Category:Human rights by country.

My counter proposal is that we go ahead and add Controversies surrounding Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to Category:Anti-Semitism because that article deals with anti-semitism as much as Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Israel does, and use of the category can truly be said to "tell the user that anti-semitism is being discussed in the article." Markovich292 22:40, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I understand your proposal, Amoruso, and it seems to make sense. Markovich brings up a kind of good point about other pages being in the cat, but I can see how the MA article would fit, since there is an extensive "allegations of anti-semetism" section. But, you need to understand why some people will be resistant to this. It's because it seems like a "ploy" to get some anti-semetic category in the article, do you understand what I mean? That, plus your suggestion of "new anti-semetism", which had the same "ploy" feeling, makes it seem like you may have negative intentions rather than good. Personally, I like to assume you're acting in good faith with that compromise, but even I am a little circumspect, and others will be more so. --LifeEnemy 00:19, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Nice comment LifeEnemy, thank you. I agree with you. I think you realise that this is a good middleground. Like you accurately pointed out, this article too deals extensively with the issue and therefore its inclusion in other articles isn't enough. Of course I want the anti-semitic category , but placing anti-semitism acheives the main goal of diverting the attention of users to the issues of anti semitism raised here. This is the target of categories to bring people up to speed and knowledge about certain issues. I don't mind (personally) the label of MA himself but I do mind the discussion of anti semitism and not whitewashing any relevant facts pertaining to this issue. That way, one can read all the denials and decide for himself. It's basically like a search engine with the word anti-semitism to see the relevant article being discussed. The reader can make up his own conclusions himself. This sounds good atleast for a temporary status I'm sure. If the issue of anti-semitism is not so extensive in the future, it can be dropped completlely, and if the issue is elevated to MA being a clear anti-semitic like certain users believe so, it can be changed to that in the future. What better solution is that. There is no compromise btw by suggesting to add categories o other articles since we're in the discussion page of the current article. I think we're generally in agreement over this which I see as a very positive step. Good day. Amoruso 00:44, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Even if you were more than a little circumspect and didn't assume good faith, you still wouldn't be in violation of the AGF policy (I won't cite the line so this stays free of further tension). All I wanted to say is that you are certainly not close to violating AGF just because of your thoughts on his proposal.

Also, what are your thoughts on my proposal above? The article that I mention is directly linked from the "extensive 'allegations of anti-semetism' section" that you mention. Since that is the main page regarding allegations of anti-semitism and this page just has a a summary, classification on that page is more consistant with wikipedia convention (as mentioned with the Israel reference). Amoruso also gets to add an anti-semitism category to a MA article, so everybody can be happy. Markovich292 01:03, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, I don't think anybody would really disagree with adding that cat to MA's controversy page. The only thing that is a little questionable is adding that tag to a person's page, since it could be mistaken for calling them an anti-semite. That can be fixed with a little addition to the category page, though. --LifeEnemy 01:20, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Human rights are being discussed in almsot all country's articles, just like ecomony, geography and foreign relations. Anti-semitism is not being discussesd in every biography article/president biography articles. Bad example. Amoruso 23:21, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Umm, most country articles do not have a section on human rights. Those that do most likely have a dedicated "Human rights in..." page (which is where the category is placed, not in the main article). Therefore, good example. Markovich292 23:39, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Umm no. Most DO have. and those that don't are simply in need for that section to be added. It's exactly like economy and the rest of my examples. Amoruso 23:42, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok, now this is exactly the kind of thing that I've been talking about. Both you STOP stop, right now, before you get into another quarrel. Now, both of you give some examples of country articles that support your idea, and do it without being offensive, demeaning, or incivil. Please, just try it. --LifeEnemy 00:19, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Considering I have been perfectly civil here, I think it wan inaccurate for you to "yell" STOP at both of us. Anyway, all he has to do is look at all the articles of countries and count up the number that have a human rights section if he still insists that he is right. Markovich292 00:27, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I didn't really intend that as a "yell", but I know that's what it looks like. I'll change it. It looks like you guys are starting another argument, so I wanted to get my point across. And, not trying to be condescending or anything, but, be honest, no one here has been "perfectly civil". We all have been rude at least once on this page.

I still say you both need to cite examples. If only one person does it, they can skew the results however they want, think of that as incentive to look. You both have to put a little effort in if you want this exchange to anywhere besides childish fighting again. --LifeEnemy 00:37, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

You see LifeEnemy, that's the problem with Markovich. Now he actually claims he was being perfectly civil LOL. ROTFL. There are many countries with the human rights sections, and those that don't simply are in need of expansions. Many also lack foreign relation section, music, culture, cuisine sections and so on. The point is that every country has human rights relevant issues (positive or negative or both), whehther it's already included or pending writing, whether in a seperate article or not, but not every person or president has anti-semitic issues (to either side or in general discussion) but rather a very limited number of people. Therefore the example simply makes no sense. Amoruso 00:44, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, he did say that, but you should understand your comment just now doesn't help the situation. Here's the problem, you assumed his meaning, and then stated that's his "problem", and even added laughing to the end. Why? That can only incite more problems. You saw how I responded, that would have been much better. As it turns out, he meant in this section, which I assume is restricted to this dialogue about country articles. That actually makes his statement correct, since incivility hasn't come into this exchange yet. You should try to avoid making assumptions like that and instead point out errors in a civil manner. Adding "LOL" is just mean, and serves no purpose other than to incite anger and drive this conversation further down. You guys need to make sure that you understand exactly what the other person means, which is much easier when discussed calmly instead of argued.

Also, a slighty better way to describe his example might be "isn't relevant". --LifeEnemy 01:41, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

As an act of good faith, I politely request that you strike "LOL ROTFL" from your above comment. --LifeEnemy 01:42, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Excellent! Thank you, Amoruso. We're getting closer to civil, back-on-track discussion. --LifeEnemy 01:53, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant "here" as in this specific section. I know that I have not been civil in every single one of my posts unfortunately. If I may add, however, my incivility stems from the extremely hostile attitude of one or two other editors (look just below for an example, at least you responded to me in a civil manner...). I know that is not an excuse, but considering the things that have been said to me I think I handled it much better than many other editors would have. Markovich292 01:16, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

• B-Class biography articles
• B-Class biography (politics and government) articles
• Mid-importance biography (politics and government) articles
• Politics and government work group articles
• WikiProject Biography articles
• Unassessed Iran articles
• Unknown-importance Iran articles
• WikiProject Iran articles
• Misplaced Pages featured article candidates (contested)
• Misplaced Pages pages referenced by the press