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long-term IP hopper tagging drafts with AfC to delete them (and apparently not a fan of mine)

I could use some help sorting this out. Though some admin action seems like a good idea, I'm not quite sure what sort of action would be effective.

An IP hopper has been tagging other people's drafts (apparently those he/she thinks should be deleted) with AfC submission templates for quite a while now. I opened an ANI thread when I first noticed it last year and though I had to revert once or twice since then, I haven't thought about it much.

But now after reverting a few more yesterday, I see another IP with interesting edit summaries. It seems the user has a particular interest in me that I was not aware of. See User talk:82.40.180.42/Usage with the various "rhodoreaction"/"RR"/"rhodoedits" (that list is transcluded on 13 other pages). I came across that user page when trying to compile a list of IPs that have done this over the last year or two. Might as well ping the only two registered users who have edited that page: RHaworth and Sgroupace.

Again, I'm not sure what course of action would be best. Not sure how they could be blocked; an LTA page seems like overkill; I have a weak suspicion about socking, but not enough evidence to name/insinuate (and to be clear, I'm not thinking of anyone I've named above); an edit filter likewise seems like a big much... — Rhododendrites \\ 00:04, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

Isn't even using open nodes to the internet or something, office-shared router or something is my guess, who knows. It feels like socking since IPs generally don't really get concerned with drafts or anything, and playing around is mostly inconsequential. In retrospect, rhodoedits can be a pretty cool name for your alt account. --QEDK (愛) 14:48, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Indeed. I was thinking "rhodoreversion!" might be a good template for me to use if I could only format it in a text bubble written in a comic book font... — Rhododendrites \\ 04:43, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Bumping this before it's archived. Would appreciate advice on where to mention this if not here. — Rhododendrites \\ 04:40, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Blocked in violation of policy

Dear administrators,

Recently, I found that a number of article about galaxies contained fanciful names invented, apparently, by an amateur astronomer from Belgium. These names have no legitimacy, no recognition and no place in any encyclopaedia article. So I began to remove them.

At 00:02 on 29 July, I made this edit. At 00:05, the edit was undone by User:Winhunter. At 00:06, they left me a message accusing me of vandalism , and at 00:07, they blocked me for 72 hours, claiming vandalism .

WP:VAND says "On Misplaced Pages, vandalism has a very specific meaning: editing (or other behavior) deliberately intended to obstruct or defeat the project's purpose, which is to create a 💕, in a variety of languages, presenting the sum of all human knowledge." It later says "Even if misguided, willfully against consensus, or disruptive, any good-faith effort to improve the encyclopedia is not vandalism."

It is not possible to perceive my edits as vandalism. They were clearly not intended to obstruct or defeat the project's purpose. They were clearly a good faith effort to improve the encyclopaedia. Nor were they misguided, disruptive or wilfully against consensus. Indeed, they had been explicitly endorsed by a consensus . So the block was obviously wrong.

The administrator who placed the block has made less than 200 edits since 2010. Approximately 30 of these were on 29 July this year, when they went on a spree to undo my edits. They broke sort ordering in a table that I'd fixed, replaced incorrect punctuation that I'd removed, and of course replaced nonsensical galaxy "names" in a series of astronomy articles.

The administrator was vaguely questioned about the block , but has not responded. Given their extraordinarily sparse editing history, it seems unlikely that they ever will. They have not edited since their spree of reverts ended in the small hours of 29 July. The block was obviously incorrect, and the failure of the administrator to explain or account for their actions seems to me to fall far below the standards you expect. So I raise it here for your awareness. I think that an administrator who barely edits in a decade and then places such an obviously wrong block is a problem. I hope that you agree. 2.25.45.251 (talk) 21:24, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

• I'm gonna have to agree with the IP here. The block, in my opinion, was unwarranted. In particular, what's more troubling is that the blocking admin clicked the block button after the second warning when it is normally after four warnings unless the user is only here to truly vandalize. The IP's edits were seriously not vandalism at all. And 72 hours is seriously harsh. All of the IP's edits were WP:BOLD. Also, to revert all of the IPs' edits was also really unnecessary unless you have good reason (e.g., sock). In terms of content, I agree with the IP. The source used to name NGC 523 comes from a blog and the names are not known per consensus at the WikiProject page. Callmemirela 🍁 21:48, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
• Agree. Someone needs to go back to admin school, and in the meantime needs to account for his/her actions. EEng 21:56, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

• @Drmies, Anthony Bradbury, Berean Hunter, and Winhunter: Pinging the admins who made the blocks. — Maile (talk) 22:02, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
• Not to stir the shit, but I'm here to thoroughly agitate the fecal material. I just want to say that I'm not surprised an edit summary with the phrase "removed idiotic dithering and insults. just how stupid are you?" resulted in a block, though to be fair, there's something to be said for letting a recently blocked editor vent a little. But we have to give admins the same leeway we give other users; if an admin blocks after being called stupid and accused of "idiotic dithering" for trying to give good advice to someone, we should show said admin a bit of patience, too. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 22:10, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
  • That is a separate matter. I said that when my appeal against the block was treated with contempt and trolling, something I plan to discuss once we have established whether the block could have had any possible justification. I do not think shit stirring like this is helpful. 2.25.45.251 (talk) 22:16, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Also don't selectively quote me please. The edit summary continued it takes virtually no brainpower to distinguish between vandalism and my good edits, and to recognise that the block was an extreme violation of policy. but you don't even have that.. This was 36 hours after I had been blocked for no reason, and after two administrators refused to help. 2.25.45.251 (talk) 22:29, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Unfortunately, that's how ANI works. We look at ALL of the aspects of the case, not just the ones you'd like us to look at. While I understand your frustration at the block, you need to understand that civility is required. Your best course of action would be to apologize for it, or at the very least make clear that you understand that it's not acceptable. Note, I am not saying Winhunter's block was valid, but you both have issues in this case that need to be addressed. --Tarage (talk) 22:22, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Taking a look at my block log, I'm of the mind that it's a lot more helpful than insulting an admin trying to help you. The fact that you're still calling that help "contempt and trolling" is probably not helpful, either. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 22:24, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

No admin was trying to help. What makes you claim that they were? 2.25.45.251 (talk) 22:29, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Berean Hunter was offering you advice, and has even indicated that they were sympathetic to your situation before you blanked your page with that insulting edit summary rant and caught a block extension for it. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 22:32, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

That is simply not true. They did not offer any advice, nor indicate that they were sympathetic to my position. They stalled and refused to lift the clearly unjustified block, and said " I'll remove this from my watchlist and let another admin consider your case". 2.25.45.251 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 08:18, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

It is true as anyone can see in the diff I posted. If you feel like Berean Hunter wasn't helpful or sympathetic, then I suggest you try to wrangle your feelings into something based on the real world, and not on the assumption that everyone who doesn't immediately jump to your defense with guns blazing is actually out to get you. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 21:27, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

• That was a poor initial block, and WH should respond the next time they log on. Unfortunately it may be a while, as WH doesn't appear to be very active. WH is responsible for the poor initial block, and the IP and other blocking admins and reverters share relative blame (by some formula I don't plan to come up with) for the ensuing flameout. Advice: Don't block too quickly, don't assume all IP's are vandals, don't react too aggressively, don't punish someone venting on their talk page, don't revert something you don't understand just because you see other people doing it. That said, I'd say this is something that Misplaced Pages is best known for.... --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:20, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Oh lord that opens another can of worms. I'm not going to touch that one. Regardless, this is yet another troubling instance of administrators going well beyond their bounds with seemingly no means for the community to enact corrections. I realize there is a pending case in arbitration for something similar, but I have little faith that it will result in anything but a 'this is a one time issue' statement. We need better. --Tarage (talk) 22:25, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Okay I agree with Floquenbeam here. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=A._K._Chesterton&diff=prev&oldid=791125842 is enough evidence that this is who we're dealing with. Someone needs to block ASAP. --Tarage (talk) 22:38, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

I really do not understand what you're saying here. Was that edit a bad edit? It seems to be it was a good edit that improved the article. I think the previous was very jarring, using the present continuous tense when the guy's been dead for more than 40 years, and using five words where one would do. I think that any capable editor would wish to make the same or similar change. But you think I should be blocked for making this edit? 2.25.45.251 (talk) 08:28, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

I'd also add the advice: don't insist on hearing from the blocking admin first, when that person typically shows up infrequently, especially when it becomes so obvious that the block was incorrect. All in all, I'd have been pretty livid too. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:32, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

I'll just put this out there as well; an admin who (prior to reverting all of the IPs edits) had 19 edits to Misplaced Pages in 2017, two in 2016, and four in 2015. Black Kite (talk) 22:39, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

For sure, it was a bad block for the wrong reasons, but given the above, it needs to be reinstated. --Tarage (talk) 22:40, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, I keep seeing new things to comment on. Assuming this is not who I think it is, then I really think the long 1RR restriction imposed as a condition for the current unblock is unfair. Not sure how an incorrect 3 day block morphs into a 3 month 1RR restriction in order to get unblocked. Perhaps if it was also applied to WH and to the people who automatically reverted the IP again - people who actually reverted incorrectly, unlike the IP - but somehow I don't think that's likely. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:41, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

FWIW, I just restored the IP's edits in Contemporary Latin per WP:MADEUP and WP:SELFREFERENCE, which should have been pretty clear-cut. Like Floquenbeam, I'd be pretty pissed off if I were the IP, making good faith efforts. It's no excuse, but certainly a reason to fly off the handle. Kleuske (talk) 22:47, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

I second Floquenbeam and Kleuske. All in all, it was a bad block from the first blocking admin. Callmemirela 🍁 22:52, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Agh - that's really not good either. Whether or not the IP editor is BKF (at this point it doesn't really matter), I think there are a number of things that a number of editors could learn from the whole situation. But it did all stem from the original bad block, from an admin (and I'll say it again) with 25 edits to Misplaced Pages in the last three years. Black Kite (talk) 22:54, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Black Kite, I agree completely. I wish we didn't have such a trigger-happy Recent changes patrol who are biased against IPs, and this block...yeah. I went back through the archives of my talk page: I have been in the middle of mindless reverts on the one hand and insults on the other hand since at least 2011. Drmies (talk) 02:12, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

• Alright, first let's get a factor that could possibly conflate the analysis out of the way here: If you dig far enough back into the IP's contributions, you do begin to see a pattern of needlessly inflammatory language in edit summaries: . That's something the user is going to want to address regardless of the outcome here.

That said, most of these comments are stale and none of them (as far as I can tell) were involved with the issues involved in the content dispute or the block. Certainly, no incivility issues were cited by the admin, as they should have been if they were contributing factors to the block. And that's just the tip of the iceberg with regard to this admin's inappropriate approach here. First off, they lept straight to a level three warning, assuming bad faith and perhaps forestalling otherwise productive discussion. Or at least, under normal circumstances it might have forestalled discussion, but Winunter doesn't seem to have cared for discussion regardless because, less than a minute later and for unexplained reasons, they changed their mind and blocked the IP altogether, without giving them a chance to process the warning and/or make a case for why their edits were not vandalism. And putting aside any possible, attenuated argument for how the IP's edits may have been disruptive in some form (and I don't think they were, in this instance) they clearly were not vandalsim. Even if said edit had been inappropriate (and they actually seem to align with our verification and sourcing policies, as well as consensus discussions on the matter), they were pretty clearly made in good faith to add permissible content, and thus not even in the remotest since WP:vandalism as the term applies on this project.

In short, Winhunter's behaviour here seems completely sloppy, if not outright WP:disruptive. And their failure to account for any of it is not particularly reassuring; far from being a context to assume that they may have legitimate reasons for having taken the actions that they did, the fact that they may once again have gone into dormancy is actually strong additional cause to consider stripping them of the bit. We simply can't have admins empowered with the block hammer who make highly questionable choices in how they implement it, without sufficient explanation, and then just disappear into the aether again immediately. Indeed, the particular details of this case raise the question of whether it is advisable to allow a user to maintain such tools at all, after such a prolonged period of inactivity. Admins need to be completely up-to-date on community guidelines, be reasonably well-practiced in how to implement them and be regular, recognizable, and constructive contributors to the project in general. I sense we are about to hear yet more complaints about how the community ought to be able to desysop without needing to appeal to ArbCom, for the second time in as many weeks; I'm neutral on that issue, but I will say that this instance makes a much stronger case than the one that can currently be found at the top of the page.

The one place where I will call out the IP is in their approach to that talk page discussion. Yes, they have cause to be frustrated here, but Drmies and other admins, having discovered the facts here, ultimately gave them a method to exit the mess and restore their full editing rights. All they were requested to do was repeat the unblock request (presumably for reasonable pro forma reasons) and instead chose to register their ire. That does raise the question of how they will cope with disputes or administrative matters in the future, I think. Nevertheless, I do think they deserve an apology for having been dropped into this mess in the first place. Snow 23:27, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

I agree that imposing 1RR as a condition for unblock is unreasonable when there's enough blame to go around, and should be removed. OhanaUnited 00:20, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

The whole behaviour and general gameplay of this editor is the likely cause of the grief. The first and second blocks were really justified by saying things like "Don't be stupid." and "just how stupid are you? it takes virtually no brainpower to distinguish between vandalism and my good edits,..." (then delete it all just to avoid scrutiny!]. Editors here are all volunteers and should not be subjected to such behaviour, and it avoids the trumping policy of all - WP:GF - good faith. The pattern seems to me easily construed as deliberately WP:disruptive.

I also responded to the various complaints of the reverts made by me here.

NOTE: I do suspect this unregistered User might be just another sockpuppet of the now indefinitely blocked Tetraquark , who also deletes Talkpage information they don't like or even blocks, turn quickly highly combative at any even minor slight, also edits astronomical pages (especially towards images), and equally shows similar poor and rude behaviour. (For a non registered User, they seem to know an awful lot about Misplaced Pages policies. e.g. Quoting WP:IG) Arianewiki1 (talk) 00:42, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

No, he for sure is for sure the BKF vandal, which is why I am concerned: https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Long-term_abuse/Best_known_for_IP --Tarage (talk) 01:02, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Do either of you have any evidence to back up these suspicions? If not, WP:ASPERSIONS, if so WP:SPI. Kleuske (talk) 01:06, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I do. Check out his edit history where there are numerous removals of phrases like 'best known for' with edit summaries straight out of that LBA page. If you want actual diffs I'll post them later tonight. It's pretty obvious. --Tarage (talk) 01:12, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

In that case, WP:SPI is the correct place to post the diffs. Kleuske (talk) 01:16, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict)That was my initial thought as well, Kleuske (see my comments immediately below). But now that Tarage has linked to that longterm abuse page for the editor in question, I daresay the case is pretty strong and more than satisfies the WP:DUCK test, based on the contributions I have looked at since coming upon this thread. Unfortunately, SPI is going to be of less use than usual, since the use rin question does not register and hops from IP to IP. I do, however, agree that SPI should be the next stop: a sanction can still be implmented there, even without a CU, based on behavioural evidence (which i think is strong in this case). Filing at SPI will also allow exploration of the socking issues to be disentangled from the inappropriate admin actions being discussed here. Plus an admin action is more likely to be prompt at SPI, especially in light of the fact that admins may be hesitant to be the latest to reverse this editors status after the back and forth of the last 24 hours, if they first dsicover the situation via this mess. Snow 01:23, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Fine, I'll leave it to you then. --Tarage (talk) 05:59, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

I do not recall removing "phrases like 'best known for'", and struggle to see in any case why you would think that could be called vandalism. It's quite ironic on a thread about being blocked with a false accusation of vandalism though. If you can find an edit of mine that you think was deliberately intended to obstruct or defeat the project's purpose, only then you can accuse me of vandalism. You will not find any such edits. 2.25.45.251 (talk) 08:28, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

I am pretty confident that you never act with the explicit intention of obstructing or defeating the project's purpose, for what it's worth. However, I also suspect you may have a substantial and fundamental disconnect with the collaborative nature of this project. Snow 10:19, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Haha, pretty sneaky sis! But this isn't my rodeo! It's your theory, and though you have me more than half convinced after sharing that link, if you're really confident, you're going to have to propose the action yourself. Snow 09:37, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict)That theory sounds like a matter for SPI. I will say that there is apparently a second line of speculation as to this user being someone else above (at least, there is reference to such positions, apparently drawn from another discussion that is not being linked to here). I will say that certain elements of this IP's behaviour and knowledge of process do suggest an experienced editor to me, but without more substantial editing, I am not willing to assume that they are anything other than what they claim to be: a moderately experienced non-registered user who ran afoul of particularly under-experienced admin and then lacked the patience to negotiate the situation as easily as they might have. And I suspect most community members here will feel the same, pending deeper evidence.

OhanaUnited, I initially shared your perspective and almost called on Drmies to reconsider repealing that restriction. Then I did a little more digging and saw the full context of how that came about. Bear in mind especially that Drmies' initial posts on that talk page were to validate the IP's position and call for all blocks and restrictions to be removed. Other admins/community members(both involved and uninvolved) then agreed, and the IP was asked to resubmit their unblock request, and was given back talk page access for that purpose. At this point the IP used that ability to speak their mind again to immediately balk and complain about the unfairness of having to take 15 minutes (at most, surely) to format that request. It was only at this point that Drmies changes their stance and implemented the 1RR restriction, while also removing the block. Even considering the frustrating and unfair context in which they were initially blocked, that was an impressive display of shooting themselves in their own foot. I'm not sure that 1rr is exactly the most targeted possible sanction here, given that edit warring does not seem to be their issue. But I suspect the intended preventative effect here was to make the editor think twice about acting impulsively when dealing with their fellow editors. Snow 01:09, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

• I was pinged here as the blocking admin? I'm the unblocking admin, who disagreed to some extent with the initial block or at least the given block rationale; I'm the one who (with Anthony) broke a lance for the IP editor. I used to do that in the old days for some other editor whose name escapes me (though Floq might remember)...no, I can't come up with it now. Anyway, I imposed the 1R restriction because it seems to me that trouble starts when the IP gets reverted and then strikes back. Snow Rise, your comments are quite to the point and I appreciate them. If the community thinks that the restriction is too much, that's fine: overturn it. But do note that I have not reverted any of their edits, that I believe I have advocated for them (here and in a slew of messages on the ArbCom mail list, where this user posted with ever-increasing urgency, and that I offered assistance, saying that they could ping me if they got reverted. Mind you, I didn't even need for them to request to be unblocked again--I was just hoping they'd say something reasonable. User:OhanaUnited, in these circumstances, I don't think my restriction was unreasonable. At any rate, have at it, y'all--I did my bit by supporting the IP's initial case and unblocking them, and at the same time trying to protect all sides with a restriction that will require the IP editor to reflect and give them the opportunity to call in the cavalry--but I won't be surprised if this backfires spectacularly, given how the temperature seems to rise when this editor shows up, no matter how solid and positive their edits are. Please don't ping me anymore in this ANI thread: it's not a concern of mine. If the IP wants to ping me to point at some revert or other, my door is always open, of course. Drmies (talk) 02:09, 10 August 2017 (UTC)
  • But I wasn't blocked for reverting anything, or striking back after reverting. I was blocked for vandalism, when I had clearly done no such thing. I am glad to see that the consensus here seems to be quite strongly that the block was not valid. I am extremely heartened to see that someone suggested I deserved an apology for it. I am less heartened to see I'm accused of being various sockpuppets but whatever.
  • As for what I said when asked to make one more unblock request: what was the need for it? I'd been blocked for vandalism, blocked for being angry about that, and then blocked for no actual clear reason for *three months*. I'd followed all the appeals right up to mailing the arbitration committee, which was crazy given how obvious it was (confirmed here) that the original block was wrong. And then someone says "I'll unblock you, but only if you ask me to one more time." It seemed really pointless. I stand by that.
  • And as for editing restrictions, well I'm not likely to edit any articles for a while anyway. You'll notice I have not edited any articles since being unblocked. The whole experience of being blocked for "vandalism" when making perfectly good edits was extremely unpleasant, and doesn't particularly make me feel like fixing errors I find, far less refixing them when other people have unfixed them, having been accused of "disruption" when I did that before.
  • Anyway I have found this a very useful and interesting discussion. Thanks. 2.25.45.251 (talk) 08:14, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Saying "I was blocked for vandalism," is not entirely true. The first two instances you were plainly blocked for saying things like "Don't be stupid." and "just how stupid are you? it takes virtually no brainpower to distinguish between vandalism and my good edits,..." . You then multiplied the mistake by then delete it all just to avoid scrutiny!

I see these blocks as a reflection of your own poor aggressive behaviour and the utter contempt you exhibit to others (including me.) This is clearly the needed evidence of "disruptive editing." None of your excuses above at all addresses your own poor behaviour, and your near continuous inflicted 'insults' to other Users if they disagree with you. Misplaced Pages is for editors in collaborations not those acting like vigilantes. (Some wisdom: Showing an inkling of contrition here would help your cause considerably.) Arianewiki1 (talk) 09:21, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Regarding Misplaced Pages:Vandalism it plainly says: "On Misplaced Pages, vandalism has a very specific meaning: editing (or other behavior) deliberately intended to obstruct or defeat the project's purpose,..." The word 'behaviour' here is important, and hasn't been addressed by this IP User at all. Arianewiki1 (talk) 09:33, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

This editor accuses me of aggressive behaviour while aggressively undoing my reverts and slandering me, restoring to articles things that they themselves had described as "abhorrent" and (incorrectly) "vandalism", and responding aggressively when I asked them why they did that. They are yet to provide an answer. I do view them as a problem but that's really a separate discussion. 2.25.45.251 (talk) 09:39, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Go right ahead. You are falsely accusing me of something. You were blocked not just because of the edits but because of your behaviour. If someone reverts an edit once, twice or three times, right or wrong, you should attempt to seek consensus. You did not do this at all. Instead you started throwing insults. End of story. Get it. Arianewiki1 (talk) 11:30, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Arianewiki1, the IP was first blocked for supposedly vandalizing Misplaced Pages. Of all the three blocks, only one was regarding civility and NPA. The other was for disruptive editing. I don't know if you're insinuating that the IP was vandalizing, because that is entirely false. Callmemirela 🍁 16:03, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Hooo boy, if somebody filed an RfA like Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/Winhunter 2 today, they'd get WP:SNOW opposed out of the door. How times change. Meanwhile, I have been in 2.25's shoes myself as I used to edit logged out at my local library for security reasons - see User talk:Ritchie333/Archive 45#The war on IPs continues, and I seem to recall I was pretty pissed off when I got hit with a two year block. Ritchie333 10:17, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

The first one is even more telling, but in both Winhunter expresses a very personal take on fighting vandalism, clearly identified as arising out of their frustration as non-sysop to be able to stop them more immediately and effectively. In fact, at every opportunity and before all other factors, they identify their reason for wanting tools to be the ability to rapidly block vandals. That's pretty telling under the present circumstances. It seems these days, in the few minutes they can spare the project every few years, the user now has no time for warnings or discussion before blocking on their vandal assumptions. Not withstanding the fact that I'm low on AGF for the IP, we do owe them for bring this to our attention and I think this matter should be referred to ArbCom, regardless of whether or not the IP gets boomerang blocked for socking. Snow 10:36, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

• IMO this is why admins should need to earn their wings every year, and not just by making X admin actions; they can't just disappear for over a decade and then swoop in and do stupid $#it with the tools and get away with it. There needs to be a requirement that admins make at least X number of actual edits (not admin actions) every two years or they are de-sysopped. We've been skirting around this problem for way too long and I've seen way too many absentee admins do stupid stuff. Softlavender (talk) 10:51, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

That would help considering the other contributing factor of this issue: editors who became admins in the early days of Misplaced Pages, when the requirements for a RfA candidate were much lower. Cjhard (talk) 11:35, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

I don't think I would survive a reconfirmation RfA, I've made too many enemies. I suspect if you tried to make it policy, the turkeys would gather round and prevent a vote (or a !vote) for Christmas, even though in principle it's a good idea. Ritchie333 11:50, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

I don't know, I think those voting against a reconfirmation RfA based on nothing more than a personal grudge would be identified as doing so and would be discounted when establishing consensus, just as the case would be in regular RfCs. But you're not wrong that it would perhaps be more of an issue. That's something in favour of Softlavender's idea of an increased minimum standard of activity to maintain sysop status: it provides an objective standard, avoiding the axe-grinding issue completely. Cjhard (talk) 12:03, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, I mentioned this possibility above, and though I can't recall having seen it anywhere before, I can't fathom that it has been suggested repeatedly over the years. It's definitely a more reasonable solution than recurrent RfA's in my opinion. That's just begs for disruption and bad blood from a completely needless airing of grievances, which the most disruptive editors will be most certain to turn out for. But a minimum standard of activity? That's completely called for. I'm surprised we don't have it, except to say that the community probably wasn't thinking in the longterm as we originated and perpetuated the process; only with time has the need become obvious. Seems like something that is ripe for VPP, if you ask me.Would need broad support from existing admins though, to survive the community process. Snow 12:25, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

• SPI clerk comment - based on the IP's behaviour here and the non-CU technical evidence available to me, I can't reason a situation where this IP is any other than the Best Known For long-term abuser, who is banned by the community. If you want, compare in particular the IP's archived diatribe on their talk page with their comments in the linked ban discussion. While I respect that several admins here have taken it upon themselves to overturn what does appear to have been an inappropriate series of blocks, along with whatever's going on behind the veil of ArbCom, the community ban has been neither appealed nor overturned, and as such I have re-blocked the IP for 3 months to enforce the banning policy. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 19:19, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Thank you Ivan. --Tarage (talk) 21:30, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Admin acct

"That is simply not true. They did not offer any advice, nor indicate that they were sympathetic to my position. They stalled and refused to lift the clearly unjustified block, and said " I'll remove this from my watchlist and let another admin consider your case"." (link)

My responses show that is patently false and the fact that they cherry-picked a sentence from within a post that contains evidence that contradicts them is telling.

• 1
• 2
• 3
• 4

I would still like to hear from Winhunter regarding the IP's initial concern. Has anyone emailed him?

BKF will have an additional ax to grind with me. His employer contacted me last week and I supplied them with lots of details. They identified him. Different managerial levels are involved and he has received formal counseling that he is not to use their network to edit Misplaced Pages again to which he has agreed. They are interested in him being a "good neighbour" from here on and it is ironic that I had just written someone looking into the case an email reply detailing the standard offer, how he should contribute elsewhere for no less than six months with an account and that he would have to request a ban appeal from the community. They intend to monitor the situation. That said, since the IP hints at inappropriate admin actions on my part, I'll refrain from commenting further on a possible socking connection here.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 16:48, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

• I've emailed Winhunter.
   — Berean Hunter (talk) 16:53, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

I'm not certain that this is the user described in Misplaced Pages:Long-term abuse/Best known for IP (if he doesn't scream abuse at my sympathetic reply above, it isn't), but if it is, he is community banned and should not be editing Misplaced Pages at all. Ritchie333 18:13, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

I have to support Arianewiki1 above - Behaviorally, this really looks like TQ. Scr★pIron 18:21, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

He's been blocked as a sock of BKF. --Tarage (talk) 21:28, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Oh fair enough. He'll be back on another IP soon enough. Ritchie333 23:36, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Berean Hunter thanks for your email, apologies I was busy during the week so couldn't respond to this thread earlier. I do recognize I could have actioned the original block in a better way so thanks for everyone's feedback. Noticed the thread is now concluded though if anyone require additional information from myself please feel free to reach out. -WinHunter 05:10, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

I'm reaching out. What does "I could have actioned the original block in a better way" mean? EEng 05:15, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

I'm open to suggestion for improvement. At the time I saw the continuing removal of similar data across multiple pages for the same subject which made me feel he was a repeated vandal. I could have explained the reason of my block a bit better at the time of the block and also see if I could have used a more appropriate warning . -WinHunter 05:33, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

• Respectfully WinHunter, those responses are insufficient to address the questions being asked by the community members here. This thread is not in fact "concluded" and I dare say that it's an indication of your inexperience with this community in the decade since you became an admin that you don't realize that. The IP was banned for being a likely sock of a user banned for behavioural problems, but that doesn't let you off scott free for your involvement in this matter. You instituted a block for another user for vandalism, even though most every editor who has reviewed those edits agrees they are not WP:vandalism in any sense relevant to this community's guidelines. More seriously, you applied the block without any warning, discussion or effort at clarification with the user in question, (unless you count a level three template slapped to their talk page less than one full minute before you blocked them anyway). Then you immediately disappeared as the situation exploded, leaving other admins and the community to deal with the fallout of your actions while the user disruptively worked their way through every community process they knew of (both on the site and off), armed with a legitimate claim of admin abuse which only amped up their existing persecution complex and gave them an excuse to game the system.
  • I admit I am not an active Wikipedian, though I did not intend to "disappear" and when someone emailed me I immediately login over my iphone and tried to respond with my thinking at the time. I am not saying I did the right thing at the time and I do apologies for all the trouble as a result of that action, I was trying to explain my thought process and mentioned that I am open for suggestions for improvement. I am happy to review the latest policies again to refresh my knowledge and if the community still find next admin actions unsatisfactory I am more than happy to let the community to decide my future.--WinHunter 15:46, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

You say: "At the time I saw the continuing removal of similar data across multiple pages for the same subject which made me feel he was a repeated vandal." Well...why? Legitimate users remove content across multiple related articles as a matter of daily business here; that is not sufficient cause in even the remotest sense to use your privileges to block. You then go on to say "I could have explained the reason of my block a bit better at the time of the block and also see if I could have used a more appropriate warning." But the reality is that you didn't provide any explanation of your block, beyond the erroneous "vandal" in the block summary, nor did you provide any real warning or make any real effort to discuss the matter with the user that you decided (on apparently no hard evidence) was a vandal. You got lucky this time that your random block happened to be a banned user, but the community is now reasonably asking if your lack of involvement here over a long period of time makes you a problematic steward for our most significant (and thus potentially disruptive tools). Sorry to be so strident about it, but your answers are not particularly reassuring me, because they seem to indicate you don't know basic proceedure for our WP:BLOCKing policy. Snow 06:12, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

• (ec)Winhunter, please go to Arbcom and hand in your admin tools. You are very lucky that the IP you blocked turns out to be a banned user, but the reason you blocked them was absolutely wrong. "the continuing removal of similar data across multiple pages for the same subject" is not vandalism if the editor is correct and the data needs removal. These kind of edits need discussion, not the admin hammer, and that you still defend your block indicates that you have not learned anything from this episode. Coupled with your almost complete lack of edits and admin actions for years and years now makes it clear that you are no longer to be trusted to act as admins should. Fram (talk) 06:15, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

• Agree with both of the above, in particular the call to resign. As I said on another thread, "We seem to have a mini-epidemic of editors in positions of trust who don't know which way is up, possibly due to limited experience editing articles and discussing with other editors." An admin with 3600 article edits and 350 article talk edits??? And how does someone with that few (not-deleted) article edits accumulate 3300 deleted edits? Plus, he still doesn't doesn't seem to understand what he did wrong. EEng 14:58, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

The reason of the high delete count is I decided to volunteer over recent years to helpout on WP:CSD as I have more limited time after my day job, and I hope you would find most of those deletions uncontroversial (like user request for their own userpages / obvious advertising etc). As I responded to another editor above I am happy to learn from this experience and review the latest policies, and if my next admin actions is still unsatisfactory I am more than happy to let the community to decide on my future. --WinHunter 15:46, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

OK, that explains the deleted edits, but that leaves everything else. You still seem unable to enunciate what you did wrong in this case, which is _______________________________ (fill in the blank, please). EEng 16:57, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

I'll do you one better. "The reason I need to be an admin is _____________________." --Tarage (talk) 19:30, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

Winhunter, your failure to engage these concerns is extremely troubling. EEng 23:04, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

• Agree with Fram and EEng. As a fellow Hong Konger, I would also like to ask you to hand in your admin tools. Removing inaccurate contents is something everyone does, IP or registered. Your revert could be viewed as repeated insertion of "Introducing deliberate factual errors", which ironically is grounds for yourself being blocked. I also think everyone here agrees that the resignation of WinHunter's admin rights, if that happens is considered as done "under the cloud". OhanaUnited 19:44, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Proposal: Kick to ArbCom with community recommendation

It seems that WinHunter is either unable or unwilling to provide significant explanation or engagement regarding the substantial community concerns relating to the problematic way in which WinHunter has approached the use of their privileges--as well as other concerns regarding whether they have sufficient experience, perspective, and engagement in the project to be serving in an administrative capacity. At present, WinHunter seems to either be trying to ride out the scrutiny, or else the handful of brief and insufficient responses above represent the sum total of their ability and desire to explain actions which, consensus in this discussion seems to clearly hold, were deeply problematic (and if I can add my own impressions, indicative of a lack of even the most basic understanding of our blocking policies).

However, ultimately the removal of tools is ArbCom's purview, so I don't see what more is to be accomplished here. We could long-term block WinHunter, but that does not seem the most transparent way to address the root issue, nor do I think we should prevent the user from possibly returning to the project to contribute productively in other capacities (unlikely as that seems given the user's lack of activity over the years since getting the bit). I therefore propose that we resolve to open a report with ArbCom, but that the report be coupled with a link to this discussion and a strong community endorsement that ArbCom investigate the issues here (and, depending on the result of this poll, a strong recommendation to desysyop). I was hesitant at first to suggest such an approach on the basis of one major incident, but the responses above have been wholly insufficient to assuage my concerns as to whether the user is an appropriate steward of the ban hammer, and I don't think I'm the only one. Snow 01:28, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

• Addendum: Since WinHunter has said that they are willing to accept community consensus on their future role as an admin (without specifying a particular community process), we can also consider asking them to voluntarily relinquish their tools, if the poll suggests they should, thus saving some time in the process. If they are unwilling to part with the tools on the basis of the community consensus here, then we can proceed with the request for review by ArbCom, no harm done. Snow 01:40, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support (as nom). Snow 01:28, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support WinHunter clearly has no real need for the tools, and no good idea about how they should be used. Please voluntarily tyurn in the bit. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:08, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support - I'll take a look over this and file a case if consensus supports it. Twitbookspacetube 02:09, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Like Snow said, wait and see if Winhunter has the courtesy to simply resign ("under a cloud", of course). EEng 03:24, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Considering their behaviour so far, I seriously doubt it. But I'll give it a week or so. Hopefully the knowledge that another ADMINACCT case is heading there should be enough to get something out of them. If their response is anything like what it took Arthur a couple of months to produce, i'll be filing the case anyway. Twitbookspacetube 05:04, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support per Snow and BMK. EEng 03:24, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support. And this should serve as a wake-up call for all admins that they can no longer dish out blocks with impunity if they cannot satisfactory justify their actions. OhanaUnited 04:04, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

I do not concur with your sentiments. I do not believe that "all admins" need a "wake-up call", but that the vast majority of admins do a decent to very good job. They don't need or deserve to be lumped in with an egregious example such as this one. Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:33, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Well, just to be clear, I wouldn't be making this proposal, but for the fact that the issues are particularly egregious; I can't ever recall seeing another pattern of facts surrounding the improper use of blocking privileges quite like this. There are occasional sloppy or involved blocks that stand to have some scrutiny, but the distinguishing factors here are this user's tangential involvement with the project, single-minded reasons for wanting to be an admin, and lack of basic familiarity with the relevant policies. If not for that highly specific combination of factors, I would not have made the proposal--and I I'm not sure that all three apply to so much as a single other active admin. None that I've come across, certainly. Snow 05:26, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

@Beyond My Ken: "Vast majority of admins do a decent to very good job". That part I agree. But within last 30 days alone, we have 2 admins, including this one, who failed to satisfactory justify their actions (the other being this case which I'm sure you're aware of its existence because you commented on it). And these are the only complaints that surfaced because the affected party knows where and how to complain. Think about how many newbie biting incidents that didn't get reported and this number would have gone up. Two in a month isn't something we should be proud about. At any rate, admins have to be accountable for their actions and that's a given when they decide to run for it. OhanaUnited 17:05, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Of course admins have to be accountable, and most of them do so willingly. As for 2 in a month - since there weren't 2 such last month or the month before, I'd say it's just random, the normal distribution of disconnected events, uncorrelated to the quality of our admin corps.Look, I know there are some bad admins out there -- believe me, I've run into a few, and it's shocking simply because it's so rare. Most of the admins interactions I've had have been perfectly normal and justifiable, and if I'm being called to task, I've generally deserved it. We have 1,250 admins, over 500 of whom are active, and I'd be surprised if there were more than a couple of handfuls of bad ones, at the very most. So, I still think you're wrong about the necessity of a "wake-up call" to all admins. What we need is better procedures to get rid of the handful of bad apples, not swatting our admins en masse on their noses with a rolled up newspaper. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:26, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

That more or less sums up my position; the fact that we've had two public discussions about possible admin misconduct this month doesn't add up to me to say much about admins on the project in general. I find most act with restraint; indeed, if there is a problem these days, it's in getting an admin to act definitively on a pressing matter--but that's another discussion altogether. I certainly didn't intend this proposal to be a wake-up call for anyone; the facts are just particularly compelling that there is are basic competency/engagement problems, in the present case. Snow 08:39, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support. The user's inactivity, combined with their recent poor decision and poor response, suggests that they shouldn't be an admin. Perhaps this should serve as a lesson for us about having inactive admins. If you aren't a reasonably active contributor, you probably shouldn't be making administrative decisions. It's like any volunteer situation—while volunteer help is always welcome, you don't want some guy who only pops in a few times a year to be ordering other volunteers out of the building. Everyking (talk) 05:45, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support. The IP was first blocked for supposedly vandalizing Misplaced Pages. From the beginning, it was clear that this block was wrong, and wrongly done. And should have been reverted by the blocking admin, as soon as the consensus became clear on this matter. Perhaps (understatement) the IP has to be blocked for other reasons, by another admin. But it remains that WinHunter messed the situation... and failed to clean it. Don't keep the mop, if you don't understand what cleaning could mean. Pldx1 (talk) 16:52, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support on the stipulation that part of the case also be able the community's ability to restrict/revoke mops for behavior like this. --Tarage (talk) 01:37, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

ArbCom has no jurisdiction over the community's ability to desysop. The only non-ArbCom solution is to block the admin. 207.38.154.23 (talk) 01:09, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Then who does? --Tarage (talk) 01:52, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

The community itself. It would require a policy change, usually via RFC. ArbCom is not supposed to make policy, rather enact it. A community desysop procedure does not exist, although I share your opinion that it should. -- Begoon 02:50, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support as per BMK. Bentogoa (talk) 15:35, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
• Proceed with caution I can only assume the author of this proposal has never actually dealt with an Arbcom case; the part about "with a community recommendation" is almost cute. Joefromrandb (talk) 03:01, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Are you intending to attempt to sound as if you are talking down to somebody there, from a place of superior / more worldly perspective, simply because you have gripes about ArbCom? No, I've never been a party to an ArbCom case, and quite happy to be able to say that. But like any other member of this community who has been around as long as I have been, I'm hardly ignorant of how matters are handled/unfold there. Or of the passive-aggressive contempt that flows in their direction from some corners of the community, regardless of the context in which their name is invoked. In any event, as I see it, we don't really have an alternative course of action here. Only ArbCom is empowered to de-sysop, so this matter has to be handled through that channel;the best we can do is share a link to this discussion and a comment about how concerned the community is with this particular user having privileges.

If you have a better course of action to suggest, I'm all ears. But I don't see what your comment contributes, at least in terms of actual substance with regard to the proposal. At least, I don't understand what "proceed with caution" would mean in this context, as a response to the proposal. The worst that can happen is that they don't act, and we have to consider another sanction if this user proves problematic. Maybe I'm missing something, but it just looks like you're taking the opportunity to register your low regard for ArbCom, but without actually say whether the proposal should be endorsed or not, or providing some alternative course of action. Snow 03:31, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support per Snow Rise. Cjhard (talk) 04:22, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose based on eventual outcome. Don't want Misplaced Pages to become best known for feeding its own trolls. Trout to Winhunter is good enough for me. 173.228.123.121 (talk) 06:18, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Bypassing redirects in violation of WP:NOTBROKEN

For months now, User:Grouches101 has been bypassing redirects in violation of the guideline WP:NOTBROKEN. Despite many clear warnings from at least four users, the behavior is continuing. —Granger (talk · contribs) 10:41, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Poster boy for How Not To Be A Misplaced Pages Editor. WP:NOTHERE section "Little or no interest in working collaboratively". After two years of unheeded inquiries, attempts to help, and warnings, I don't think the typical 31-hour first block would be enough. An effective "Guidelines, schmidelines. Stop bothering me!" is just not acceptable. ―Mandruss ☎ 11:23, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

User:There'sNoTime had closed this discussion with "Editor appears to have left the project, and hasn't edited for 19 hours (since this report was made). No admin action required until they start again" but I have reopened it as this seems counterproductive: there is zero evidence that they have left the project (they only edit a few times a day anyway, the current gap is way too small to suppose "leaving the project") and this closure means that someone has to open a discussion here while the other editor is actively editing, not a few hours later, which is not really the best way to serve the project or to help the OP. Fram (talk) 12:13, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @Fram: Bad close on my behalf - apologies all, but I'm still not seeing any admin action needed here. What do you think we should do? An editor violating NOTBROKEN is hardly a big deal, but them not wanting to communicate does fly in the face of NOTHERE and suggests a block may be in order. I read Why are you telling me this? I told you before I'm gettin the hell outta here. Goodbye & good luck!! from their talk but admittedly disregarded the timestamp, so I was entirely incorrect in saying they've left. They're rather clearly not up for discussing it, but it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth to block over NOTBROKEN -- There'sNoTime 12:20, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for the reopen. I count 112 edits in the 12 days since their two emphatic declarations of retirement. ―Mandruss ☎ 12:18, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

@There'sNoTime: As you yourself suggested, a block would be for NOTHERE (and generally wasting a lot of good editors' time), not for NOTBROKEN vios. ―Mandruss ☎ 12:23, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Point taken, I'll bow out of making any decisions on this one given the above muck up, but I would at least give them the opportunity to respond to this thread -- There'sNoTime 12:27, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

It appears they are declining the opportunity. ―Mandruss ☎ 04:07, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

 Comment: That's unfortunate. I have issued a warning to the editor. Alex Shih 16:02, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

• Apparently User:Grouches101 has started making these edits again. Here they changed ] to ], and they made similar edits on other articles today. I don't see any indication of willingness to discuss the issue or respect the community consensus. —Granger (talk · contribs) 21:19, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

• Will someone please block this clown? EEng 21:50, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

• This really doesn't seem like something that requires admin attention at this point; piping links isn't disruptive to the point of requiring action. But, say, if someone wanted to propose that Grouches101 should be subject to a community sanction of some sort for this behaviour, and if the community expressed support for that sanction, then an admin could enact that consensus. Some kind of topic ban, for example. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 21:51, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

  @Ivanvector: If you don't think the user should be blocked, how would you recommend getting the behavior to stop? Discussion and warnings haven't worked. —Granger (talk · contribs) 22:00, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

  We've blocked people for this before. People forget that there's often a reason to prefer a redirect over a direct link, because sometimes the redirect becomes its own article. Not to mention it's just a waste of everyone's time checking their clogged-up watchlists. EEng 23:29, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

  You really haven't made the case for WP:NOTHERE in my opinion, this editor is clearly intending to edit constructively. Alex Shih appears to be dealing with this in a most appropriate way. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 00:33, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

I didn't say he was NOTHERE; I said he's wasting people's time making counterproductive edits. It's great that Alex Shih gave a warning, but he's been warned over and over and even now keeps doing it. What do you suggest we do now? EEng 00:52, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Wait. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 00:58, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

For what? EEng 01:11, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

It appears to have stopped. I also provided more explanation at his talk page. nihlus kryik (talk) 01:16, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

@Ivanvector: The NOTHERE case was at the heading "Little or no interest in working collaboratively" and couldn't be much stronger. Perhaps that should be moved to WP:CIR, I don't know, but collaboration is not optional. This may be water under bridge in this case (finally), we'll see—but this is worth noting for future reference. ―Mandruss ☎ 04:33, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

• Pardon me for saying that we could have just saved time and trouble by blocking him. EEng 01:23, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

• Two more of these edits today: . The first one has the edit summary "My last edit here, just making it the same as the others. So long FOREVER Misplaced Pages". —Granger (talk · contribs) 18:05, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Attack page?

Would User:Morty C-137/SPI-Case be considered an attack page? I was under the impression that accusations of sockpuppetry should be confined to WP:SPI.

Recent reports regarding Morty C-137:

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive956#Morty C-137: Battleground attitude, personal attacks and edit warring.

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive343#User:Morty C-137 and User:Rjensen reported by User:Cjhard (Result: Warned)

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive342#User:Pepe.is.great and User:Morty C-137 reported by User:KDS4444 (Result: Warned)

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive953#Morty C-137

--Guy Macon (talk) 18:31, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

This discussion has already been had by administators and answered, and I consider Guy Macon's filing here to be in obvious bad faith. Morty C-137 (talk) 18:36, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

@Morty C-137: Where did this admin discussion occur? --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:45, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

I have been attacked over and over and I have every right to keep records given that we are "required to give evidence". Morty C-137 (talk) 18:50, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

That's not what I asked. Where has an admin told you this page is OK? This page has been up for over a month with no SPI case filed. We can't keep pages like this around, per WP:POLEMIC. --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:52, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

I just linked a diff for you above. Take it up with them. Morty C-137 (talk) 18:54, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Since Morty's decide to revert the blanking, I've deleted the page per WP:POLEMIC. These type of pages cannot be left around for long periods of time. --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:55, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Well, that proves this whole listing is in bad faith, since you gave me no actual chance to save the material offline and you're ignoring policy. Morty C-137 (talk) 18:59, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

I've undeleted for 10 minutes so you can copy everything. Then it's getting deleted again. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:01, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Well I'm lucky I saw that at the 9th minute, such a "generous" amount of time. What a load of harassing crap. Morty C-137 (talk) 19:06, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

May I interject here? Morty C-137 none of those users nor an admin EVER said that you could do that. Dinah In Wonderland 19:18, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Seconding this. It's possible Morty linked to the wrong diff, of course. If you're collecting evidence in this manner, it's best to do it off wiki. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 19:48, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Two things here. A quick look through Cjhard's (very short) edit summary:

1. It screams "sock puppet" of the sleeper kind. The account has only approx. 815 edits but extensive knowledge not only of Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines but it's internal politics, feuds, obscure cases and ANI reports (examples . It made 16 edits in 2007, 8 edits in 2008, 4 edits in 2009, 4 in 2011, 3 in 2012 and then... it "woke up" and exploded with several hundred edits starting in May of this year. And a lot of these involve following and reverting Morty around - there's no freakin' way this is a legit account.
2. It's immediately obvious that the account HAS in fact been following and harassing Morty.

It's hard to tell who the sock master here is but at least this account looks like one of the socks of the same person.

I can easily see why Morty is frustrated here.Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:54, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

If you want to accuse me of being a sockpuppet, do it at SPI. Doing it here, incorrectly, without evidence, and without having the courtesy of pinging me in a conversation I hadn't already been made aware of, is an unacceptable personal attack. Honestly, I'm getting tired of it from Morty, and my tolerance for it is waning. Cjhard (talk) 21:28, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Better yet, provide your input to the SPI case Morty finally opened: Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Cjhard. Cjhard (talk) 21:39, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

If User:Morty C-137 doesn't understand why his behavior (both in maintaining a page full of un-substantiated attacks on wiki, and his recent contributions at Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard) is problematic, administrative action against him should be considered. Power~enwiki (talk) 20:15, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

AFAICT there's no "problematic" behavior at RN/B, which, incidentally, is not a discussion you yourself participated in. As far as I can tell.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:23, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

I've commented on it now, though I'm not sure what your remark regarding my lack of participation is supposed to imply. I hope that, after the fourth invocation of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT, he will let the discussion die on its own; it hasn't been about "Reliable Sources" for quite some time. That said, it's not actionable; as the SPI case is filed and the attack page is blanked, hopefully an admin can close this soon. Power~enwiki (talk) 00:50, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

• (copy of recent post to WP:REFUND): This page is covered both by WP:POLEMIC (a policy), and WP:CSD#G10 (a speedy deletion criterion that references WP:ATP, a slightly different but essentially similar policy page). I referenced the first policy in the deletion log, kind of assuming the link to G10 was clear, but if that's too lazy and if it helps in dotting the i's and crossing the t's, consider it deleted per WP:CSD#G10. We generally haven't considered short-term compilation of evidence an attack page, but they aren't allowed to linger in user space for a long time; in this case over a month, plus a week since its undeletion. From WP:ATP: "keeping a "list of enemies" or "list of everything bad user:XXX did" on your user space is neither constructive nor appropriate". If it's going to take a long time to compile evidence, that should be done offline. Morty now has this material offline if he chooses to use it. If an admin thinks WP:POLEMIC/WP:CSD#G10/WP:ATP doesn't apply here, they can certainly undelete (I'll say as much at ANI in a moment). Or ditto if Morty wants to take it to WP:DELREV instead. But it pretty clearly qualifies to me. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:46, 10 August 2017 (UTC) (end of copy)

I'm not preventing Morty from continuing to compile evidence, I'm not preventing him from filing an SPI, I'm not claiming Sjhard is or isn't a sock, and I'm not Morty's enemies' newest buddy. But my experience has been that we enforce WP:POLEMIC/WP:CSD#G10/WP:ATP like this all the time. I even tried to blank it instead of delete it, and was immediately reverted. Again, if any admin thinks undeletion is warranted and WP:POLEMIC/WP:CSD#G10/WP:ATP doesn't apply, please feel free to undelete. Now I've been told I'm a stuck up jerk, that I'm someone's pet admin, and that I am intentionally harassing Morty, and I still temporarily undeleted the page for Monty to copy the contents, and I've explained myself sufficiently to satisfy WP:ADMINACCT. I've had more than enough, so I'm disengaging now. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:59, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

I agree. Whether the page in question should be deleted or not is subject to the usual administrative rules and guidelines (though I've seen other people do similar, just in a but less transparent way and get away with it). My point rather is that Morty's action were understandable and importantly, that this ANI report is completely pointless.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:08, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Floquenbeam, I apologize for the jerk comment. That being said, I am frustrated because (a) the last person to blank that page was a freaking sockpuppet of a stalker and (b) you didn't explain ANYTHING of your blanking, followed by just up and deleting it when I reverted and tried to add the newest sockpuppet to the list. How the hell was I supposed to know what you were up to when you were too lazy to give an explanation? Morty C-137 (talk) 21:10, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Could be a sock puppet. Nothing has been proven yet. --Tarage (talk) 21:25, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

I learned today that this user filed a false allegation of sockpuppetry against me. It's certainly "Not Here" behavior. It needs to be stopped either on its own or by a hasty door showing. The attack page is a symptom of the problem. --DHeyward (talk) 04:33, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

There's no shortage of symptoms; the repeated assumption/leap to accuse other users above (including intervening admins) of "harassment" demonstrates A) a pretty profound lack of understanding of basic process (which can always be remedied with experience) and B) a more fundamental sense of persecution and refusal to WP:AGF (which is more problematic). We already see enough users show up here on a revolving door basis who are convinced that any time their wishes are thwarted or their behaviour questioned, it is a form of harassment. Best to disabuse this notion early, before it progresses to the conspiracy theory stage and truly disruptive discussions that usually follow. Snow 11:18, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

Dheyward ran right in after someone was blocked. The Clerk on the case admitted "I can see why it looks suspicious." But hey, go ahead and roundly misrepresent everything. Morty C-137 (talk) 12:31, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

There are two sets of sockpuppets attacking Morty. The earliest one is at Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/D.H.110/Archive A second set is at Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/D.Pearson/Archive. I'll quote Bbb23, who is sadly now inactive here: " I can see the confusion because of the usernames, all the pepes and earsons, but they are separate masters editing from different continents and using different other technical data. I don't know why this person is mimicking the other.-" That is my finding also. Two different continents but the later one is mimicking the earlier. I have my own thoughts on this but need to ponder on the evidence a bit longer. Doug Weller talk 13:27, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

Holy mother of WP:IDHT; you really need to stop assuming (and vocally asserting) that everyone who questions you is out to get you, and listen to what the experienced admins and users here are trying to tell you. A few things relating to your last couple of posts:

A) I wasn't commenting on Dheyward's assertions, but rather pointing to your behaviour above of attacking every administrator who takes action to keep you from trampling on policy. I don't see how I am "roundly misrepresenting" anything by pointing out that this is an incredibly self-defeating strategy.

B) You have so selectively quoted mz7's comments in the SPI that you opened against DHeyward (and mischaracterized their role in the SPI) so as to have essentially reversed the conclusion they came to. Here's the full quote, with the context you omitted: "I am not an SPI clerk, but for what it's worth, I agree that the reverts alone are insufficient evidence. I can see why it looks suspicious, but DHeyward is a longstanding editor (created in 2005), and the Doorzki account is not exactly new either (created in 2012). If these were single-purpose accounts with no other edits besides these reverts, we would probably call it a WP:DUCK. However, that's not the case here: both editors have coexisted for a while now without drawing suspicion of sockpuppetry. Given this, I would need to see more evidence of interaction between these accounts or other idiosyncratic behavior (e.g. similar writing style/editing philosophies) before blocking or even recommending CheckUser in this case."

C) Your latest SPI is an absolute nightmare of disorganized non-cogent accusations and non-contexualized links. Moreover, you clearly knew what you were adding to that page, because this was your edit summary for your second edit: "Fuck it. I was trying to get my head wrapped round it and was going to start paring things down and reformatting, but since I got harassed today and told "use it or lose it", it's up. Have fun, whoever.". Uhh, no. That's not how this works. If you want the community to take your accusations seriously, the responsibility is on you to make the argument in a structured and intelligible fashion. It is not the community's responsibility to go digging through that mess of gibberish to make heads or tales of which of the dozens of editors you accuse might actually be a sock, just because you still wanted to open another SPI but you were also angry and wanted to make a statement about your attack page being closed.

You need to take a pause for the cause here, because at ANI we look at the behaviour of all involved parties, even once we've established that one of them is problematic. It will do you no good at all to identify a sock who may or may not be harassing you if, in the course of trying to make your case, you demonstrate a profound inability to contribute to the project yourself without accusing every good-faith contributor and admin you come across of being in on the harassment, and just generally demonstrating a highly WP:disruptive attitude. Snow 13:56, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

Related: Misplaced Pages:Requests for undeletion#User:Morty_C-137/SPI-Case (2nd request). --Guy Macon (talk) 17:57, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

Really, this user has been here for 4 months and he has an enemies and sock accusation list. Not since Psycho in the movie Stripes has someone created a death list so quickly. It's hardly the type of activity new users find themselves embroiled in and arguing about. It's about time to call this one as an obviously returning editor. --DHeyward (talk) 23:10, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

Considering his SPI against Cjhard is failing(unsurprisingly), I think we need to start limiting the amount of accusations Morty is allowed to toss around. Yes, it is unfortunate that he has been the target of two sock puppet editors, but that is no excuse for slinging accusations at everyone and hoping some stick. --Tarage (talk) 00:12, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Actually, the SPI is as much as done; the CU found no relationship between Cjhard and any of the other editors. I'm actually pretty shocked jpgordon decided to run a CU in that situation at all, but perhaps they recognized it may prove necessary to refer back to that SPI as fruitless. In light of the polemic/attack page, the recurrent fruitless SPIs, the constant assumption of bad faith and unsubstantiated claims of harassment (particularly the accusations against Guy Macon and Floquenbeam above), and just the generally WP:battleground and WP:disruptive attitude this user is bringing into every space they enter into, I'm fully prepared to support restrictions of some sort--a topic ban from SPI in particular. Frankly, at this point, it's beginning to feel less like IDHT and more like "I will never hear that", but the smallest targeted restrictions should be considered first. I definitely think something needs to be done though; this is a whole lot of drama for the community to have to contend with to indulge for a user who has been around for four months and spends half of their time grinding axes; harassment from socks gets one a certain amount of sympathy, but this user is primed to see foes no matter the circumstances. Morty either needs to learn what is an acceptable claim of harassment or, as has been suggested above, he will have to be shown the door. Snow 01:47, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

English Misplaced Pages has a history of sanctioning editors when they respond poorly to harassment. Some of this is unavoidable, but I still think we need to come up with a better approach. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 08:09, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

I fail to see how responding poorly to harassment by another editor gives Morty C-137 a free pass to abuse multiple editors who had no part in any harassment. Morty C-137, given the wide variety of editors who you have accused of harassing you and acting in bad faith, could it be possible that the problem is you?

There once was a drunk driver who was driving the wrong way on the freeway. Upon hearing on the radio (over the honking horns) that there was a drunk driver who was driving the wrong way on the freeway, he peered through his windshield, noticed all of the headlights heading toward him, and exclaimed "My God! There are DOZENS of them!!" --Guy Macon (talk) 09:19, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Guy Macon presents a heck of a Gish Gallop, but none of those diffs show what he is saying, with the exception of one edit that I've already apologized for. Morty C-137 (talk) 15:58, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Respectfully NRP, multiple admins have attempted to approach this user with kids gloves only to be told to stop "harassing" him. I wasn't suggesting a block, but rather trying to isolate them from areas they don't seem yet competent to handle--areas in which they are currently sinking a lot of time into, and which are the nexus of all of the issues they are having with just about everyone they seem to be interacting with on the project now.

The smallest and most targeted sanction I could think of is a topic ban from SPI complaints, appeal-able in a few months once they have enough experience to know what really looks like suspicious activity, under this community's standards--not just the criteria of anyone who disagrees with them ever, on any article. Though, if I'm frank, it's the refusal to AGF / general hostility to anyone thwarting their will that is the real problem. If you think you can reach them, short of that sort of thing becoming a necessity, by all means have at it. But I'll direct you to the above, and this user's talk page, where numerous notably patient admins and veteran community members have tried. Snow 09:35, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Indeed. Whilst dealing with true harassment is something we need to do much better, dealing with tactical (or misguided) cries of harassment based on a simple disagreement or failure to gain consensus is something we do poorly too. CRYHARASS can be similar to CRYBLP: a diversion from the underlying issue by appeal to the authority of an inapplicable generality which deliberately invokes strong reactions. Both of these are gaming tactics, and, historically, we've not dealt particularly well with that, either. NRP makes a good point, but, as you say, the issues are wide and nuanced. -- Begoon 10:00, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

I think what’s clear is that since his block Morty C-137’s conduct hasn’t improved since his first block. His behaviour on the Reliable Sources Noticeboard is a great example of his personal attacks, tendentiousness and battlefield behaviour continuing unabated. His presence is almost inevitably disruptive in any political topic he engages with and his temperament appears to be inherently compatible with a collaborative project like Misplaced Pages. A series of increasingly long bans ending in retirement or an indefinite ban appears inevitable. However, Morty’s work on articles related to Rick and Morty suggests that he is able to contribute to the project positively in areas which require less collaboration and are less politically charged. The optimist in me would suggest that a topic ban on all political topics along with a sanction against making any personal attacks (specifically accusations of wrongdoing without evidence and/or outside the proper channels) might prevent his negative behaviour while retaining him as an editor. Cjhard (talk) 09:45, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

I suggest a short block for incivility and not assuming good faith, followed by longer and longer blocks until he either gets the point or is blocked indefinitely. His behavior has completely disrupted what would have otherwise been a calm, rational discussion on RSNB about whether a particular source, previously reliable, has become unreliable. This is interfering with the operation of the encyclopedia. I am agnostic on the politics topic ban, not having examined his behavior in that area. --Guy Macon (talk)09:49, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

I'd argue his behaviour on RSNB is an example of his behaviour in the politics topic, given the nature of the sources discussed and what they're being used for. Cjhard (talk) 10:03, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

I'd argue that, as a party, jumping on some sort of perceived bandwagon might not be the best thing for you to do here. Despite the very poor SPI, people may still have questions. Your last couple of posts have not helped to convince me that you don't deserve deep scrutiny, yourself. -- Begoon 12:41, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

What does that have to do with Morty's disruptive behavior and personal attacks? A Morty-💕 has a lot less drama overhead. Threatening his victims doesn't solve the problem. --DHeyward (talk) 14:54, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

DARVO. Those who have been through abusive situations recognize this sort of behavior when someone tries it on them. I've done nothing to warrant the torrent of abuse you've heaped on me, I legitimately saw something weird in a pattern of edits and reported it. You've been page hopping for the past couple days insulting me and trying to get me "banned" while calling me things like "ban-boy" and it needs to stop. Morty C-137 (talk) 15:53, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

No Morty. I've followed you to admin pages where you are abusing other editors including me. It needs to stop. Your behavior is deplorable and your accusations lack merit. I've not sought you out or even knew you existed until someone pointed out your merit-less SPI accusation in an apparent attempt to get me sanctioned and I learned that I was one of many. I have done nothing but point at your poor behavior. It's incompatible with Misplaced Pages. I have not started any ANI/SPI/3RR or any other process against you but that seems to be your sole contributions as there are at least 4 open ones about you. Your familiarity with these avenues, your long list of "bad users" and attitude suggest this isn't your first rodeo. I personally find that those that see sockpuppets at every turn are often the worse sock puppeteers and is why they think a torrent of socks are out to get them. --DHeyward (talk) 16:36, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

It would appear that DHeyward has now begun stalking my edits and reverting me wherever he can find me, in an attempt to get me angry. Morty C-137 (talk) 18:15, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

"Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help, help, I'm being repressed! Did you hear that? Did you hear that, eh? That's what I'm on about! Did you see him repressing me? You saw it, didn't you?" --Monty Python and the Holy Grail

According to WP:WIKIHOUNDING, "Correct use of an editor's history includes (but is not limited to) fixing unambiguous errors or violations of Misplaced Pages policy, or correcting related problems on multiple articles. In fact, such practices are recommended both for Recent changes patrol and WikiProject Spam." DHeyward appears to be simply correcting related problems on multiple articles that you have edited. --Guy Macon (talk) 20:11, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

"Wikihounding is the singling out of one or more editors, joining discussions on multiple pages or topics they may edit or multiple debates where they contribute, to repeatedly confront or inhibit their work. This is with an apparent aim of creating irritation, annoyance or distress to the other editor. Wikihounding usually involves following the target from place to place on Misplaced Pages."

Repeat: to repeatedly confront... with an apparent aim of creating irritation, annoyance or distress. Dheyward has never edited those pages before - they were following me in hopes of creating irritation, annoyance or distress. Morty C-137 (talk) 20:40, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

If these edits you cited annoyed you, you are in the wrong place. You called them reverts when in fact your exact text and citation were retained. You didn't bother to check that the source and content were duplicated. --DHeyward (talk) 20:47, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Morty C-137, it appears that pretty much everything causes you "irritation, annoyance or distress", including the most innocuous of edits. Right now it looks like you are heading toward an indefinite block, and your continued claims of harassment and bad faith are making that block more likely. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:05, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

This discussion is thoroughly off the rails. I request an un-involved admin close it with no action against any editors. Power~enwiki (talk) 04:44, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

I've changed the template from {{hat}} to {{cot}} to prevent edit warring. But hopefully off-topic discussions can stop here. Alex Shih 04:48, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Respectfully, with Lynn's divergence being now hatted, I must disagree with your description of the discussion and with your recommendation. There are real and substantial issues still being addressed here, and (Lynn aside) all of the community members who have responded to this thread are roughly of the same mind that the behaviour in question is problematic (even if no clear solution / response from the community has been proposed). Morty has responded to every halfway critical appraisal of his actions with cries of "harassment", even while under community scrutiny and while responding to admin directives here at ANI. If he's willing to shout accusations in the faces of admins trying to restrain him, how can we reasonably believe he's about to change his approach when dealing with the rank and file in disputes on some random article--especially the highly charged socio-political ones he favours? I don't see the point in closing this thread when it's virtually certain the user will be back here at ANI or back spamming SPI before we can blink. Snow 05:14, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Off topic Show me an ANI thread with this much activity that wasn't off the rails after 36 hours. I'd honestly like to know what that looks like. Absent some kind of ground rules, firmly enforced, there aren't any rails to be off of. ―Mandruss ☎ 05:18, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

My point also. The ANI was filed in response to what was called an "Attack Page". Now, I didn't see the page, and I don't know if there was anything on it that could be termed an "attack" rather than part of compiling an SPI case, but it sounds like that was what it was, and that it wasn't a frivolous case, as per Volunteer Marek. "Not frivolous" as opposed to "valid"...I'm not making judgements on the validity of Morty's suspicions, but it does seem to me that he was doing what he was supposed to do when one has suspicions of socking, and that is to file an SPI. Sounds like he filed a couple, ended up with egg on his face, and was being more cautious with the third, when all of a sudden his hand is forced. So, he files the SPI in response to that, and now he's being attacked himself on all fronts, for one being accused of "spamming" SPI. This is the problem with ANI. This thread went off the rails as soon as it stopped being about the "Attack Page" and whether or not it was okay to have it. Which means it went off the rails in lines 2-5 of the thread, when Guy Macon started bringing up the recent ANIs that had been brought against Morty. And, as to how long one should be allowed to maintain a page of difs related to sockpuppet suspicions, what is the "timely manner" (quote from policy) in which it should be used? The answers are: "It depends on whether or not you've recently been brought to ANI" and/or "It depends on what editor is keeping them, and who they are keeping them on," neither of which is an objective, rationale response that is going to diffuse an editor that is already feeling persecuted.

So yes, this should be closed without action. If another ANI is opened, there should first be a perusal of Robert's Rules of Order by all parties. The dogpile method that ANI currently uses is not just dysfunctional, it's something out of Lord of the Flies. Lynn (SLW) (talk) 13:37, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Cjhard has now been closed: "Checkuser finds nothing interesting connecting Cjhard with any of these accounts or with any problematic accounts at all."

Meanwhile, the previously listed problem behavior () has continued with .

There is a broad consensus that the behavior of Morty C-137 is problematic. Everyone who criticizes Morty C-137 in any way is accused of bad faith, harassment, or sockpuppetry. If this is closed without administrative action, someone will open a new report when the behavior continues. --Guy Macon (talk) 11:44, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

A Proposal

Morty C-137 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is now editing 2017 Unite the Right rally, and while he has managed to technically avoid violating 3RR (because some of his reverts are of obvious vandalism), editing that page at all during this discussion is a sign of incredibly poor judgment on his part. As a friendly offer to him, I suggest that he voluntarily agree to a post-1932 American Politics TBAN for the next month. Power~enwiki (talk) 17:09, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

I note that I can't promise that other editors will consider this sufficient. Power~enwiki (talk) 17:09, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

And I note that I think that the object of the ANI has been met, which was to address the "Attack Page." It's gone. But you're right, he probably should walk away from articles like that for a while (why 1932?). I, for one, wouldn't touch one of those types of articles with a 10 foot pole (My focus is on the fur trade and nice, un-contentious articles about horses Oh, wait) My observation is that anyone who does edit those ends up getting regularly brought to ANI and blocked. Just part of the whole "encyclopedia anyone can edit" scenario. Lynn (SLW) (talk) 17:36, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

@Power~enwiki: Have I made any bad edits on that page? Can you point to any? I'm willing to bet you can't. Morty C-137 (talk) 17:57, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Not the right response Morty. He didn't say you made questionable edits, but that your editing the page was questionable. You need to walk away from all this for a while. Believe me, I know what it feels like to be dogpiled, and that's why I took hits here calling that out, but if you don't settle down you're going to be right back here and it will probably be for the right reasons next time. Lynn (SLW) (talk) 18:07, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, there is no "right response", ever. No matter what policy is complied with, there's another contradictory policy. Trying to report harassment results in more threats; filing quickly when there are likely sockpuppets gets attacked, trying to put it all together to get it right gets attacked the same way. Whatever I say, whatever I do, someone with an agenda will twist it and misrepresent it in some way. They won't do shit about people who hunt me page to page, they won't do shit about the people constantly making new accounts to harass me, but they'll go after me nonstop. Morty C-137 (talk) 19:20, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

And your belief that is the case is a good reason for the proposed TBAN. Your non-political edits seem to be stress free for you but your political edits have you seeing boogeymen at every turn. That's a problem for all of us much more than any problems you are dealng with. --DHeyward (talk) 20:56, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

And there's a reason someone who stalked my edits trying to irritate me will have no impact on my opinion. Morty C-137 (talk) 21:19, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

That's OK. Being blocked from editing Misplaced Pages has been show to be an effective method for impacting the opinion of editors like you.

You are claiming that it's always someone else, never you. For some inexplicable reason dozens of people who don't know each other have somehow gotten together and decided to harass poor, innocent you, while the vast majority of editors get along fine with everyone else.

The fact of the matter is that we do care about those who legitimately harass you, and we are putting in our absolute best effort to identify them and stop them from posting to Misplaced Pages. But none of that changes the fact that your behavior is a problem as well.

Here are some diffs. Study them, and identify the things that you are doing that others here are not doing. Then stop doing those things.

• "Bullshit and WP:WEASEL words"
• "The repeated dishonesty ... just designed to try to irritate and provoke "
• "Rudely and dishonestly misrepresenting ... false accusation"
• "Fraudulent ... in bad faith"
• "Obvious bad faith"
• "Inappropriate and done in a manner calculated to harass."
• "That proves this whole listing is in bad faith"
• "You'd prefer to beat me up. Now I see why admins are considered suck stuck up jerks on wikipedia."
• "What a load of harassing crap."
• "Go away. You know you only posted that garbage to harass me."
• "But hey, go ahead and roundly misrepresent everything."
• "Not sure what game you're playing or if you just decided you hate my guts for some reason."
• "Such a sad individual."
• "So many personal attacks."
• "Stalking my edits and reverting me wherever he can find me, in an attempt to get me angry.".

Free clue: The thing you keep doing that is pissing everyone else off involves accusing others of harassment, accusing others of bad faith, and in general acting like a total jerk.

I propose a short block for the above behavior, followed by longer and longer blocks if he keeps doing it. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:21, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

I know full well you decided you hate me and want me blocked, and you won't shut up nor stop misrepresenting my edits till you get your way. Such as your rank mischaracterization of when I noted the many personal attacks from DHeyward after he launched a flurry of them including calling me "ban-boy". Morty C-137 (talk) 21:35, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Again, bad behavior (real or imaginary) by others does not excuse your behavior. If you think that either I or DHeyward have misbehaved, file an ANI report with diffs supporting your claims. Your continued assertions that it is never you, always someone else are making it more likely that you will be blocked from editing Misplaced Pages. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:45, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Morty C-137, your post right above is an example of the behavior Guy was pointing out. It probably isn't really helpful to your cause. May I suggest you consider moderating your behavior some? Ealdgyth - Talk 21:59, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

I've already posted the diffs here. LynnWysong was right about one thing, Guy Macon posted this just to cause a dogpile because this board isn't for resolving things, it's for a bunch of vultures to get their fill ripping into victims and engaging in DARVO. Morty C-137 (talk) 22:18, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Votes on action against Morty C-137

• Support short block Enough of this. This has wasted way too much time and the editor, even after a failed malformed SPI, still doesn't get it. --Tarage (talk) 22:12, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support short block as a minimum option to deal with Morty. Hopefully it'll cause him to look at the criticism he's received here and correct his behaviour, but his levels of IDHT are through the roof, so the more likely outcome is that he will add this to his list of grievances by the harrassers at Misplaced Pages and we'll be back here when he resumes editing. Cjhard (talk) 23:53, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Then what's the point? Lynn (SLW) (talk) 00:39, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

I also support a topic ban on political topics as a measure which might be more effective in preventing Morty's disruptive behaviour in the long term. Cjhard (talk) 01:05, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

• OpposeThis ANI has been a cluster. The fact that it started by characterizing Morty's draft SPI report as an "Attack Page" fatally flawed it from the beginning. Process should mean something. Even if you have to let someone off the hook that probably doesn't deserve it, you can't use flawed process to justify retribution. Let's piece the conch back together and do make people do it right. Lynn (SLW) (talk) 00:08, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support both block and TBAN - As a pending changes reviewer, I am witnessing the reversions made on Jenny McCarthy in opposition to Morty's acts. A temporary block will stop D.Pearson's hatred, while the topic ban will prevent further attacks. I also recommend page protection for any affected articles that Pearson is attacking Morty on, including the one I mentioned. jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk) 00:38, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support either or both short block and topic ban. Morty C-137 has clearly indicated that he will not stop his disruptive behavior unless forced to do so. --Guy Macon (talk) 00:44, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support block and AP2 topic ban. --DHeyward (talk) 02:16, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support short-term block and (especially) topic ban from AP2 topics. The IDHT is off the charts here and Morty seems incapable of distinguishing community concerns from genuine harassment. In my opinion the troll who has pestered him (presumably after locking horns with him on some article or another) has only exacerbated an underlying and pronounced difficulty with the collaborative process that seems to be fundamental to Morty's approach on this project. In other words, I'm quite certain that Morty's battleground attitude is a feature of his general attitude while editing here, and that it has been (and will continue to be) present, even in the absence of any kind of actual provocation. A preventative block to temporarily disengage him from his current feuds, combined with removing him from the especially contentious areas until he has demonstrated an understanding of our behavioural standards stands the best chance of forestalling further attacks on passers-by. Personally I would have started with a much more narrow ban from SPI, but the AP2 topic ban being the one put forward, I can support it without qualms. Snow 03:21, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support topic ban of some kind, no opinion on a possible block. I think that a tban from SPI (broadly construed to prevent Morty from throwing about these blanket accusations regarding others being socks in general - we're smart enough to be able to get rid of the two sockfarms when they pop up) would be better than a tban from AP2, but if that's the consensus there's no opposition from me. ansh666 05:57, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support - both block and TBAN. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:38, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Proposal for Snow Close

It is clear that there is community consensus for a short block followed by a topic ban.

I propose that this report be closed with a short block followed by a six month topic ban from filing new sock puppet investigations and from all edits about and all pages related to post-1932 politics of the United States, broadly construed. This should be accompanied by a warning about accusing other editors of harassment or bad faith, and an explanation that any further accusations should be in the form of ANI reports, not inline comments. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:11, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Absolutely not as a WP:SNOW close. However, I do support your proposal. Power~enwiki (talk) 22:48, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Not a block, that would purely be punitive; TBAN is another thing. By the way, any admins thinking of closing this might want to first examine the rev-del'd edits a few minutes ago to this section. Black Kite (talk) 00:23, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

A block would not be punitive if the behavior is ongoing. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:39, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

...Which opens up a golden opportunity for User:Morty C-137. Are you listening Morty? All you have to do is give us the slightest indication that you understand why eight people just supported having you blocked and/or topic banned and indicate that you will make a good-faith effort to change. Pretty much everyone here (including me) would love to close this with "no administrative action required" and move on. Just give us a reason to think that things will change. --Guy Macon (talk) 00:57, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

For those of us who were unable to see the rev-del edits, can you give us some understanding as to how they pertain to this? --Tarage (talk) 02:12, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

It was a grossly uncivil comment against the editor in question from a likely sock. Alex Shih 02:25, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

A CU confirmed (by me) sock. There have been two unrelated sets of socks attacking Morty. Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/D.H.110/Archive stopped in April. The ones mentioned there in June are part of this set: Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/D.Pearson/Archive. They are definitely unrelated other than the target - the second set is mimicking the first. Except at the beginning, when D.Pearson suddenly appeared to defending Morty and to help him edit war, leading to a possible/inconclusive SPI.Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Morty C-137/Archive. Doug Weller talk 08:20, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

There's another one on there right now. So childish. Lynn (SLW) (talk) 14:19, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Antisemitism

Could someone have a look at the Antisemitism in the United Kingdom page. There are two editors determined to include a picture of Jeremy Corbyn. The picture was added only two weeks ago, shortly after the 2017 UK general election. There was no discussion and no consensus was sought. There's little evidence of a consensus for such a controversial move. Garageland66 (talk) 08:42, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

As this is a content dispute, I have fully protected the article for one week and advised editors to gain consensus for the inclusion of these images. I don't believe any other admin action is necessary at this time -- There'sNoTime 08:53, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

• Well, says User:Philip Cross, it fits "as the Labour Party under Jeremy Corbyn has been implicated in a tolerance of antisemitism by very many sources"--a ridiculous excuse for a BLP violation. One wonders (maybe) why Cross picked only Corbyn, when all major parties were indicted in the recent report. Drmies (talk) 18:30, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
  • I'm afraid I am with my honourable colleague Drmies here. I don't wonder at anything anybody does or says here any more, but I would be prepared if necessary to exercise a technical measure to prevent any such damage to our project. --John (talk) 22:11, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
    • Thank you. I looked at this a few hours ago and was going to post some thoughts but really I just think people who continue righting great wrongs in such an absurd fashion should be given a final warning and then indeffed. Johnuniq (talk) 23:49, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
• What Phillp Cross said is correct and the fact it hardly appears anywhere is an obvious NPOV problem (not opining on Corbyn's picture on that page, but the general coverage of the issue in this encyclopedia). Corbyn even had to commission an inquiry about it due to the pressure from the media, yet none of that appears on his page or the Labour page. Funny that, eh? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 18:07, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
  • here they even call it Labour Anti-Semitism. Sir Joseph 14:34, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Here's a RS that states that the Labour party linked to increase in anti-semitic acts in the UK. hiding behind PC policy is just wrong, here's another RS, where a third of voters stated they will not vote Labour because of alleged anti-semitism, clearly Labour and Antisemitism in the UK is relateable, Sir Joseph 14:32, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

However Labour != Jeremy Corbyn. Its inappropriate to link a living person in that way absent reliable sources that do. That *Labour* has an anti-Semitism problem (allegedly) has been well covered. Only in death does duty end (talk) 15:02, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

How about this? The same percentage of Jews said they'd vote Labour as Muslims who voted for Trump, linked directly to Corbyn.

This is not the place to go over the content issue, but it's obvious noting criticism of how Corbyn deals with antisemitism is not a BLP violation. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 16:03, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

By the way, the fact nothing about this stuff appears in any relevant article despite years of coverage in places like the BBC, NBC, Guardian, etc, is an obvious WP:BIAS issue. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 16:48, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Oh that's just because Misplaced Pages is run by socialists... Only in death does duty end (talk) 08:00, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Socialist activists, please. -- Begoon 13:30, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, those pesky Jews who want to edit Misplaced Pages and include mention of increased antisemitism in the world, and antisemitism with regards to Labour and how it's affecting the party. Shame, really. Sir Joseph 13:53, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Oh. Well at least you're neutral. I was joking, I have no position, but nailing your flag to the mast is ok too. I don't edit those articles. I have better things to do. They're full of people who make comments like you just did. Not a war I want to join. -- Begoon 15:08, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

You don't want to join the war, just take a drive-by shot. What's not neutral in what Sir Joe just said?

You guys can make fun of this as much as you like, the fact remains that editors try to add information about this issue to various articles and those attempts are almost always blocked, despite the fact there's a very large amount of coverage in the media. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 15:46, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Yep, I was kicked off a page because I posted a different opinion about Sweden. It is true though, that antisemitism is now tolerated by the left, both in the UK and in the US, and it's a shame that Misplaced Pages is not allowing mention of that in articles where it can rightly belong, merely I guess for trying to be PC. Sir Joseph 19:21, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Request that editors persisting in personalizing edit difference be warned to desist

I came back from a 1 month block undertaking to hew strictly to the letter of the WP:AGF law. At 2000 Ramallah lynching, the following style of insinuating views about my motives from edit to edit started.

• like how certain people who complain often about tag teaming seem to think it's ok for them to do here, NMMGG’s first edit. I.e. Huldra and I are tag-teaming.
• Nishidani practices lawfare in editing François Robere
• Nishidani seems to have no idea how Misplaced Pages should work François Robere
• Nishidani seems to have no idea (about) the subject matter François Robere
• I've challenged him (Nishidani) on both, and got only a handful of snarky comments François Robere.
• Your being ignorant of a subject doesn't make it obscure. No More Mr Nice Guy.
• NMMGG then took me to AE, fully aware I had reverted an editor who had broken 1R, and who had refused to self-revert. I did not care to make this an AE matter. Notwithstanding this he argued that I was guilty of breaking the spirit of the IR rule, though I had observed it strictly. The case was dismissed, with the closing admin protecting the page for 3 days and stating:’ If disruption continues once protection express, please let me know or bring it back here.’

I regard the following style of comment, following that closure, as disruptive. Robere has generally taken the advice there on board. NMMGG persist in, as far as I can see it, trying to niggle away by baiting his comments with sneers that personalize differences in reading the evidence. Every comment I make on policy or evidence is glossed as suspect because of some putative ulterior motive.

• Oh, and stop being a hypocrite. You're perfectly at ease "complicating analysis of source work" when it serves your purpose. François Robere.
• Nishidani is trying to use semantics to block a legitimate edit here No More Mr Nice Guy.
• my request he desist met with a quip regarding advice I gave to another edit to not repeat an error of writing too much, namely
• Was that an attempt a humor or just a complete lack of self-reflection? Serious question. No More Mr Nice Guy
• I also support FR's version. I also find the phrase "canvasing on this page" very funny. There has been consensus building. Just not the consensus you want. No More Mr Nice Guy. Why I am singled out, is unclear. There is no consensus between the disagreeing editors, only among one party of editors agreeing among themselves, which is not 'consensus building'.
• I agree with everything Icewhiz said about sources above, and have seen Nishidani make the exact same argument when it suited him. No More Mr Nice Guy (Unlike all other editors my arguments are not focused on the topic and evidence, but on some desire to have the evidence suit my personal feelings/beliefs
• I replied:'Another AGF violation. I don't make edits which 'suit me' (sneering at bona fides) I strive to make edits that 'suit' the complexity of the sources. Please focus on this, not the editor. I know you dislike me, but you don't have to rephrase this contempt in every other comment.
• NMMGG replies by trawling up two diffs from 2 years ago to question my editorial bona fides forever after that dispute. Trying to stir an argument by dragging up old diffs when we have complex edits to make is, again, disruptive.
• I ask him again to desist, and focus on the edits we are discussing.
• NMMGG won’t listen, states I raised the ‘topic’ (what topic?), and assures me he will keep doing what I asked him to drop doing, commenting personally.
• As usual, all you had to do is not bring it up. I will continue to feel quite free to respond to any topic you bring into the conversation.

p.s. as the page protection lapses, an editor about to edit states:

• Regardless, I'll try to push this between reverts. I doubt Nishidani will accept it, as it's 'not grammastical' and not supported by sources

Tone might be piddling, that's why I've brought this here, but the tenor of this hostility and insistent distraction from the technical issues (I brought in 15 sources, and their evidence was met with silence, as this ribbing kept up) to guess what my motives are, or intentions are, is self-evident. I don't mind being sanctioned for not observing protocols to the letter: but that is no reason for other editors to persist in badgering me, for one, to see if they can stoke up a reaction. It's very easy to just discuss evidence and policy, and when an experienced editor keeps sneering despite repeated requests that he drop it, the implication is that he does it to a purpose that has little to do with the merits of any article issue. I ask he be given a last warning. It's not a luxury he alone may indulge himself in while the other editors are muzzled by a strict commitment to AGF.Nishidani (talk) 13:21, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Based on the talk page, I feel Nishidani should be included in any warnings. Power~enwiki (talk) 16:28, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

This complaint is obviously without merit. If any uninvolved editor has any questions for me, please ping me. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 16:41, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Actually it is a complaint based on policy, one that at AE and here is regarded as crucial in a topic area where conflict is commonplace.

My complaint regards the specific policies at

Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks The prohibition against personal attacks applies equally to all Wikipedians. It is as unacceptable to attack a user with a history of foolish or boorish behavior, or one who has been blocked, banned, or otherwise sanctioned, as it is to attack any other user. Misplaced Pages encourages a civil community: people make mistakes, but they are encouraged to learn from them and change their ways. Personal attacks are contrary to this spirit and damaging to the work of building an encyclopedia.

For one, dragging up diffs from 2015 to undercut my credibility in 2017 is to reintroduce off-topic an issue from the past, rather than address the issue I was trying to explain (to a third party, not to NMMGG). Kibitzing in this personal mode is disruptive, because it draws the focus off the problem, and makes out the editor is problematical (and therefore not to be taken seriously by the third party). Reread the flow, this is what was going on.

And at WP:AVOIDYOU You are consistently referring to me, with a dismissive tone of malice, in the second person, rather than focusing on the technical merits of the problems raised. I’d brought 20 sources to the page, mostly ignored while NMMGG kept talking about me. Nishidani (talk) 17:26, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

You keep bringing stuff up, and I respond to that. You brought up your bona fides, I noted those include falsifying sources on the article we were discussing. You said something about me disliking you, I noted that on the very same talk page, you made fun of two people who were lynched and mutilated and then called another editor and me racist. There's a lesson here that you for some reason refuse to learn. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 18:09, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

I don't 'bring stuff up'. I add, invariably, numerous RS to every page I edit. I didn't bring up my bona fides. You challenged it by linking to a discussion in 2015, repeating the bizarre assertion here that I mocked the slaughtered and called two people racists. I would have been banned had that been, not your contention, but a verifiable fact. You brought up your contention about my assumed contempt for the dead in 2015, I didn't. We are editing in 2017, not dwelling on the past, and policy explicitly tells us to deal with present content issues, rather than nag the bone of the pastNishidani (talk) 18:47, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Nishidani's very first interaction with me was a needless reversion; the second was a 1RR violation notice. He then proceeded to revert every single edit I made on that page in the coming week, and engaged in rather tedious and lengthy discussions on eg. the semantic differences between "erred", "took the wrong turn" and "accidentally" - neither of which he was willing to accept. He has, while doing so, peppered his comments with policy references (NPOV, OR, 1RR...) and little lessons for other, not the least inexperienced editors, which he himself would disregard when given a chance. Were it not for other editors such as No More Mr Nice Guy and Kingsindian, a lesser editor than this humble Wikipedian might have been pining for the fjords by now. On these grounds I stand behind each and every one of my comments; do with it as you please. François Robere (talk) 17:50, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Robere. This was discussed at AE, and there is no need to rehash it here. I have no issue with you. I cited your comments before the AE case, and noted they rapidly dwindled after that case was closed. The last one is an understandable lapse. NMMGG's persistence in sneering is not a lapse, but continual and defiant of all requests that he desist.Nishidani (talk) 18:47, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

:::: Before this request came along, I had been thinking of having a word with NMMNG myself, as I have indeed had in the past. If Nishidani thinks that the issue is really with NMMNG (I agree) and not Francois Robere, I suggest that this ANI request be withdrawn: I will talk it over with Nishidani and open an AE request focusing on NMMNG myself if Nishidani still feels like it after our discussion. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 19:05, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Here is the discussion KI had with me on my talk page, for ease of reference. Interestingly, it too involves a certain someone falsifying sources and pushing a POV. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 22:53, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

I brought it here to avoid AE. I'm not out to get anyone. It's not hard to write impersonally: I have adopted this, after two sanctions, and I think it fair that NMMGG be told with some severity that he must focus on productive discussions on the merits of edits, rather than adopting a sneering tone, with remarks that have nothing to do with the issues at hand.Nishidani (talk) 20:38, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Here are a couple of examples from the past couple of days of you "writing impersonally": (compare with your complaint above that I said you're trying to block a legitimate edit) and . Although I suppose it's an improvement over, say, this followed by this, just as an example off the top of my head. By the way, I wonder how you manage to get the acronym of my handle wrong so often? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 22:53, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Looks to me like it's just you two talking to each other. Nothing going to come of this, at least nothing good. It might be best if you two simply ignore each other. It's not a perfect solution, but might work to keep the peace, while not much of value will be lost; since there are other people on the talkpage who you can respond to. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 01:02, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

That's the best possible advice I can imagine under these conditions, Kingsindian, but even with long experience of having seen that particular piece of advice being handed out (often in this particular space), I have scarcely ever seen it recognized by the involved parties as their best solution. As to my impression of the specific issues, a review of that talk page suggests both editors are approaching this conflict less than ideally. I'm sure everyone is already aware, but since it hasn't been mentioned in any active discussions on that talk page (and given the heat there), I feel everyone should be reminded that this area falls under WP:Discretionary sanctions. Snow 06:37, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Please note however that NMMGG brings up again evidence from my preban remarks - he's dragging up the past, and the one remark that is not impersonal dating to the period after my ban has nothing to do with him. It's inappropriate by my own criteria, which I adopted because that was the advice at AE twice this year. I've undertaken since my ban to refrain from what comes naturally, quipping sardonically, and have not done so in NMMGG's regard: he persists. Judgement begins when one, regardless of all else, discriminates to see if differences exist. To waive away a state of evident conflict by saying, 'well, you're all the same' is to suspend judgement and therefore refuse to offer concrete advice to either or both parties. I don't mind being counseled. I do think it unhelpful that no advice is given. As to approaching a topic less than ideally, bringing 15 sources to the page to have them analysed, offering to summarize all of the contradictions in the evidence to allow the other editors to tweak or adjust (i.e. 'work) and sniping or sneering by editors who don't appear to look at the new evidence, cannot be collapsed as both equally acting in a 'less than ideal' manner. That is meaningless. I've tried to turn over a new leaf, and the other chap appears to be raking over mulch. All I request is that he be told to drop the overt hostility. I can live with hostility between the lines, but policy says you shouldn't adopt it openly as the default mode with other editors. In short I'm quite happy to live under any rigid AGF protocol, but I wish this to be seen to apply to all parties, and, here, specifically to NMMGG. Since my past weighs heavily here, one should note he once stated that AGF is not a suicide pact. But lack of good manners has never been interpreted as an exigency for survival, at least on Misplaced Pages. Nishidani (talk) 07:46, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

As a third party, I am perplexed at how long Nishidani and No More Mr Nice Guy have gone at one another over a period of years without an interaction and/or topic ban. Both users have been blocked recently for violating the 1RR of WP:ARBIPA. François Robere and Nishidani both violated the If an edit is reverted by another editor, its original author may not restore it within 24 hours remedy on 2000 Ramallah lynching . GoldenRing handled the most recent AE, but it appears their hope for getting along didn't last. I could see recommending dispute resolution, but I fully believe that would wasted at this stage. Someone with more experience is needed to handle this, but I just wanted to make sure other readers are aware of the recent events. nihlus kryik (talk) 10:12, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

I appreciate the work you put into this, which shows scruple for evidence. However several things are wrong there. I did not break 1R. Robere did, and NMMGG tried to get me sanctioned at AE for what he tolerated in Robere's editing, when it did not apply to my edits.

Whoever looks at this should examine matters chronologically, starting from the premise of my complaint. I was sanctioned, and undertook to drop any tone that could be construed as lacking WP:AGF, i.e., to use impersonal language. I have done so since, save for a lapse, not with regard to NMMGG. At AE this year, not only regarding myself but several others, I/P editors were warned that Discretionary Sanctions were in place, that no breach of them would be tolerated, and that these articles would be carefully followed to see that this stringent ruling was adhered to. I can't see any evidence of administrative oversight since my return: I see evidence, mustered above, of personalizing issues. Now, not to make a call on the evidence at that talk page since 9 August, is to leave ambiguity in the air. It is not a matter of sanctions: it is a matter of laying down the law in a way that applies to all editors, not just myself. It is unfair for me to work under that strict reading, while other editors feel free to snipe. I have been asked to keep my remarks impersonal, and I have since the recent AE block expired. I don't see this assiduous attention to my verbal lapses in the past being applied to everyone on these pages. It's humiliating to have to bring this piddling issue up, but I just want NMMGG and whoever else to work under the same stylistic conditions I am (happily) obliged to work under. The past is dead and buried, at least for me, and dragging it up disorients judgement. NMMGG's 'evidence' even here, all predates my sanction: he won't drop it, and I am simply asking that he be reminded that the explicit policy I cited applies also to him. It's not 'taking sides'. It is establishing parity and neutrality. If it does (which at the moment it doesn't seem to), then this board will be saying,'NMMGG's personalization of the issues' is within some limit, and he may persist in adopting the tone he has decided to use over the last few days' (the tone he has always used, and which, in the past I used as well). Parity in working conditions is all I am asking for, nothing else. Nishidani (talk) 10:37, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

If an edit is reverted by another editor, its original author may not restore it within 24 hours is a remedy beyond 1RR. When François Robere reverted you, you reverted him within hours. By doing so, you were in active violation of the Arbitration remedy. nihlus kryik (talk) 10:56, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

You disagree with arbitrators. I've read your remark. There is no need to repeat it.Nishidani (talk) 12:27, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Its clearly that Nishidani gamed 1RR and reverted just few hours after the limit he also broke ARBCOM restriction when he reverted François like Nihlus Kryik pointed out.François didn'ht broke 1RR as its not clear to what version he reverted too and by my reading his first edit was just an edit and not revert.--Shrike (talk) 11:44, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Excuse me. I ask for attentive independent admins who understand policy, and have wide experience, to discuss evidence. I am not interested in opinions, distractions, misreadings, nor is, I hope, anyone else.Nishidani (talk) 12:26, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Anyone is able to comment here. Just because you don't like what I or others are saying does not mean you should be dismissive. WP:BOOMERANG. I'd call on the admins to summarily enforce the Arbitration remedy (as written) that has been violated as it is clear Nishidani refuses to see any error on his part. nihlus kryik (talk) 12:46, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

I'ver ratched up around 57,00 edits over 11 years, created roughly 270 articles, and make content edits, introducing in the main what the best available academic opinion has to say about any topic. I don't sit on articles, revert, quip, tweak. I (re)write them with a view to encyclopedic comprehensiveness. Anyone can edit. Anyone can have an opinion. I think it helps if editors actually show a willingness to work hard, and constructively, otherwise this place becomes a pastime, a game. I know the rules, and obey them. I specialize in people who are on the receiving end of colonial development, and expect that the same principles apply to the I/P area that apply elsewhere, where I am very rarely reverted or attacked. It's a tedious burden but I will not renounce my right to apply there the standards I used everywhere, Australians do not get upset when I write up their history of dispossession: it's known, recognized and accepted as a fact. In the I/P area you have to work for days to get an obvious fact in. It's that simple. I don't see why that area should have taboo status, and lead admins to despair. I'm asked to hew to rigorous standards of AGF. Fine. Apply exactly that principle to everyone. Nishidani (talk) 13:00, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Correct, which is why I pointed out the problematic behavior of other editors as well. However, your edit count means absolutely nothing to me; it does not negate the obvious edit war you took part in. nihlus kryik (talk) 13:04, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Also, since you do edit elsewhere, why don't you just avoid the caustic environment of Israeli-Palestinian articles altogether? It seems it would be in your best interest for multiple reasons. nihlus kryik (talk) 13:11, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

My best interests are not served by working for Misplaced Pages. I have to turn off 90% of ability to think, research and write in order to conform and contribute. In the real world, one has known peers to assess one's abilities. It's a happy pushover there.Nishidani (talk) 13:54, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Why is the AE case being relitigated here? I suggest that Nishidani stop defending themselves in a case where a ruling was already made. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 13:49, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

I agree. If Nishidani wishes a discussion from only administrators, with no comments from lowly rank-and-file nobodies (who might contaminate the process with their torch-and-pitchfork-wielding ignorance) then they should file an appeal at AE, or otherwise shut the hell up. Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:26, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

I didn't do that for several reasons: there's a lot of complaints at AE recently that look retaliatory, and NMMGG just had me there. I dislike giving the impression that this is an abuse of administrative time just to 'get back'. I don't want NMMGG 'punished'. Wordsmith and GoldenRing repeatedly said personalizing discussions at I/P would be hit by a hammer: I guess they don't read those pages, but wait till a complaint is filed. Second. I'll let out a big secret. I don't know how to formulate an AE request. I'm a complete fucking ignoramus regarding anything to do with anything but the simplest formatting. Anyway, I've better things to do.Nishidani (talk) 15:52, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

So go do them, and stop bitching. Beyond My Ken (talk) 16:40, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Lucky man. I can't even get away with exclaiming remonstratively 'For fuck's sake' without it being used in an indictment.:)Nishidani (talk) 17:12, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

You could have alerted your volunteer meatpuppet . He's the top non-admin contributor to AE. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 17:58, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Which illustrates my point. yourvolunteer meatpuppetNishidani (talk) 18:47, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

He explicitly told you that if you have a problem with other editors, you should tell him and he'll do the reporting (implying that you may lose your temper). How would suggest phrasing that information differently? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:00, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

As I say elsewhere, this request is likely to go nowhere. For the article itself, following full-protection (and its subsequent expiration), a draft which I had proposed has been accepted by all sides as a starting point, and further discussion on the disputed points is going on in the sections here and here. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 17:45, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Possible template vulnerability used in Azad Hind to redirect to a Twitch channel/external website

I was attempting to click on a link on this article when I was suddenly redirected to some sort of satirical Twitch channel. Apparently, somebody managed to insert a page-long image that links to an external website. Editing the article's source doesn't reveal any suspicious links, so I presume that the vulnerability resides inside of a template used within the page, and I'm not good enough with reading/editing Misplaced Pages templates (even though they must be simple enough to use) to locate the vulnerability (perhaps the vulnerability resides within the MediaWiki software itself?). This could be dangerous, as the external link might be an IP logger or even worse, and prevents normal usage of Misplaced Pages.

You simply have to click anywhere inside the contents of the article to be redirected. The website's sidebar and top bar are normally usable as the link's reach doesn't leave the article's div tag. — Preceding unsigned comment added by WaryLouka (talk • contribs) 14:57, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

A remnant, I think, of some vandalism some days ago. Try purging the page's server cache by making a null edit on the page if you see it again. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 15:07, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

It seems to be gone now - That being said, however, I feel that the incident around twitch links in templates does need to be dealt with. Twitbookspacetube 15:15, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Well, yes, I purged the cache by making a null edit... --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 17:54, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

It's still there. I just had this issue on the exact same article and was going to come here to report it. 81.98.14.109 (talk) 21:08, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

By the way here is what the page HTML source code looked like to me a few minutes ago. It is not longer appearing for me either. 81.98.14.109 (talk) 21:15, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, it's no longer appearing for you? Perhaps it was a lingering caching effect. :) (I did purge a few more times...). The ext link has been blacklisted so it should not be appearing on the wiki again. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 22:23, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

The spoof here was covering the whole page a transparent png; is there a reason not to size-limit img= things? Do we need 7000x7000 images anywhere? --jpgordon 14:22, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Proposal: Entire template space is semi-protected

Nope. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 21:55, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I would like to propose that the entire template space move to a minimum standard of semi-protection. Twitbookspacetube 15:15, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support Twitbookspacetube 15:15, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose this is trying to fix a leak with a hammer. Power~enwiki (talk) 16:51, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose per Power, doesn't solve anything really. ansh666 17:33, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose This is an overreaction. The incident has already been dealt with, any remnants can be cleared up very simply. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 17:59, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose Overkill. It has already been added to MediaWiki:Spam-blacklist. nihlus kryik (talk) 21:24, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose IP and new users do make useful and productive changes to templates. There are better ways to handle this issue. Ravensfire (talk) 01:24, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

DYK nominations are the obvious examples. Ritchie333 08:11, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Well, yeah, and when I find the editor who created that ridiculous structure for DYK I'm going to throttle them. EEng 01:54, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Alternative proposal : Audit templates and TE protect above a threshold

I like the idea of template editor protecting these sorts of templates; they are obviously high use, and vandals are likely to go for the ones that have the highest visibility. So, do we have an audit of the most widely transcluded templates (infoboxes and Twinkle-compatible templates must be high up the list)? And if not, can we make one. Once we know that, we can start identifying what should be protected, and act on that. Ritchie333 19:28, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

We have Misplaced Pages:Database reports/Unprotected templates with many transclusions (highest). — JJMC89 (T·C) 19:52, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

See WP:HRT. nihlus kryik (talk) 21:24, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

The problem is edits that add large images or layers to templates by IP or new users. Would it be possible to create an edit filter to look for those and prevent them from happening, directing the user to the template talk page to request the edit there? Ravensfire (talk) 16:29, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

User:Lamon Brewster is My hero

For the last two weeks, blocked user Lamon Brewster is My hero, who has some obsession with Lamon Brewster, keeps returning under 109.240xx IPs almost daily. Examples:

• 109.162.48.235
• 109.240.66.211
• 109.240.73.212
• 109.240.21.16
• 109.240.20.205
• 109.240.53.28
• 109.240.47.180

Could a rangeblock be applied? Mac Dreamstate (talk) 16:02, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

109.240.0.0/17 would take care of the 109.240.x.x edits (not the 109.162.x.x one) but there would be some collateral damage. I don't think there's an urgent need to protect the encyclopaedia to warrant that but I'd leave this open for second opinions. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 18:45, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

I agree with not urgent, but the scope of articles is gradually increasing every time they make such edits. It started with one article, but is now up to six—getting them all RPP'ed will be laborious. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 18:58, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

OK, let's get some second opinions. :). We can keep a watching brief on that range in the meantime. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 19:13, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

I looked earlier and I agree with Malcolm that the /17 isn't feasible right now. Is the vandal predictable enough for an edit filter to work? Katie 20:59, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

They are. In every edit, they use the string " hero". Mac Dreamstate (talk) 01:36, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Chelisuk - Competency Issues

Chelisuk (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I have had experience with this editor before. I noted they added a cite to British naval forces in the Falklands War claiming 400 Hong Kong Chinese served as crew for the Royal Fleet Auxiliary in the Falklands War. To anyone familiar with the conflict this is indeed a rather bold claim to make, there were a few HK chinese laundrymen but they didn't crew whole RFA. So I checked the citation and noted it was a history of the RFA from 1905 to 1950. The Falklands War was in 1982. So I removed the cite, Chelisuk immediately edit wars it back .

So I ask him how the cite supports his claim User talk:Chelisuk#August 2017, his response is very odd "People cite books all the time without having to justify it.". He links to a google books page, which only confirms what I thought the cite doesn't support his edit. The page is referring to the inter-war period.

I don't understand if he genuinely believes that this edit is acceptable but there appears to be serious WP:COMPETENCE issues here if he does. WCM_email 18:44, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

I included two references, a book, History of the RFA from 1905 to 1950, Amongst other things, the book states 'Round Table class ships, which were exclusively manned by Hong Kong Chinese ratings from their first introduction in 1963 until 1989, when Sir Lancelot paid off as the last RFA crewed by ratings of this nationality.' The period 1963 to 1989 includes the 1982 Falklands War. Here is the link:- https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=pR3OAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA69&lpg=PA69&dq=rfa+chinese+crew&source=bl&ots=nfUP1woscK&sig=GEJIC3nXDexqG74drwLF3FgCauA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwifrN6Qi_PUAhUMJ8AKHYOLAsMQ6AEIPTAG#v=onepage&q=rfa%20chinese%20crew&f=false

I should make clear that all six Round Table-class landing ship logistics ships including Sir Lancelot, took part in the Falklands War. I didn't make this clear to Wee Curry Monster, which may be the problem, but I don't understand why this user has ignored the clear statement in my second reference.

My second reference was http://www.scmp.com/article/596179/war-within This states that 'Most of the 400 Hongkongers working aboard RFA vessels in 1982 were dispatched on the 100 ships carrying 18,000 men to the South Atlantic.' I didn't say 400 went, I said 'up to 400'. In this case, I was trying to reword the original statement, and this may be clumsy wording but nothing false was intended.User:Chelisuk

• This appears to be a content dispute and not ripe for ANI (what use of the admin tools is being requested here???). Sort it out using the normal editing process and by following the steps at WP:Dispute resolution. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 19:32, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

No it wasn't a content dispute, I noted the cite he gave didn't include the material, asked him politely about it and got some very weird response. And even now, what he's doing is WP:SYN and WP:OR, he's taking a comment that RFA in the Far East were crewed by HK Chinese and concluding that this must mean they were in the Falklands too. WCM_email 19:49, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

What are you asking admins to do here??? To block Chelisuk on the basis of an alleged dodgy edit, which has now been removed via the usual editing process? Not going to happen. If Chelisuk wants to pursue that edit he can find consensus (or not) on the talk page. There's nothing here for ANI. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 20:07, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Visa policy of Qatar

Hi there. I have recently tried to fight off edits by an IP address 182.239.82.14 on the page Visa policy of Qatar where he made several unconstructive edits. I keep leaving him messages and invite him to discuss the issues, but he refused to answer and simply reverted my edits every time. I would not like to get into an edit war with him so now I am asking the administrators to step in. C-GAUN (talk) 00:02, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

• Semi-protected for a period of four days, after which the page will be automatically unprotected. Katie 00:07, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Appreciate it. Meanwhile, I will try to get in touch with him to discuss this issue. C-GAUN (talk) 00:13, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Might be time for a rangeblock

After going through the AIV page history, I found IPs belonging to this range that were getting blocked:
Sorted 8 IPv6 addresses:

2600:387:2:803::58

2600:387:2:803::7b

2600:387:2:803::92

2600:387:2:805::a5

2600:387:2:809::5e

2600:387:2:809::85

2600:387:2:809::c0

2600:387:2:811::ba

It might be time to block 2600:387:2:800::/59 and see if that helps. —MRD2014  02:17, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Yes they were repeatedly reporting administrators, then I started reverting them so they started repeatedly reporting me. Lol. Home Lander (talk) 02:38, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

• These six IPs, likely one person, each made one edit to AIV between 01:40 and 02:10. They were all blocked and the page was semi-protected for a few hours. That seems to have taken care of things. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 05:00, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
• I was blocking them several hours earlier, and since. It seems to me like quite a busy range, so I've adjusted a relevant edit filter instead, for the time being. For the record, this is the LTA vandal from Georgia. -- zzuuzz 05:27, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Thanks zzuuzz - looks like the filter is working. Home Lander (talk) 16:44, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
    • zzuuzz you talking about me again??? :) Drmies (talk) 17:23, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
      • @Drmies: All I'm sayin is that I've never seen you in the same room together ;) On balance I'm tempted to block this range for a while if it carries on much longer. -- zzuuzz 17:30, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
        • Well, I've never seen you, so for all I know you're Bbb23 or ScienceApologist. Hell, I seem to be Volunteer Marek, so maybe you are too. That rangeblock doesn't hit me, I think, until I get to the traffic light at my university, ten miles closer to Georgia than my house, and I shouldn't be editing Misplaced Pages while driving anyway, haha. Drmies (talk) 17:33, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

A moved page from sandbox deleted all my edits from when I created the page.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I created a new live Misplaced Pages article at 16:07, 13 August 2017, the article being Diallang Jaiyesimi. However, just over 12 hours later at 16:34, 14 August 2017, another wikipedian has moved their basic sandbox to the live page, which erased all the data I had posted with 17 citations included. I have reverted this, am I in my right to do this, as the person who moved their basic sandbox is an actual administrator? I spent a full day literally researching, gathering information. I am the original creator of the page, who posted it live to Misplaced Pages. Thanks. --Nelly GTFC (talk) 23:42, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) @Nelly GTFC: I have notified GiantSnowman per protocol. From the article history, it appears GiantSnowman started his draft version on 10 August, deleted your mainspace article today so that he could move his version in, but then did a history merge so that your edits were restored to the history of the article. Your edits are still there in the history and can still be used. From a cursory glance, what transpired was not exactly how I would have done it in GS's place, since your version looked far more fully fleshed out, but that's more of a matter for hashing out on the article talk page now. --Finngall 00:45, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

@Finngall: Thanks for the information, I appreciate it. What is the general consensus in regards to pages that have been created? Do sandbox creation dates overrule that of someone who has posted a live in depth article with as much data as can be possibly found? I just find it rather rude that anyone can just remove facts and references/citations just like that.--Nelly GTFC (talk) 01:17, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

@Nelly GTFC: Anyone can remove info, edit info, or remove references as they see fit (making sure it aligns with Misplaced Pages policy) since no one owns the articles. Given that, I do find the actions of GiantSnowman to be... disruptive given the version you created was much more detailed. This shows the difference between your version right before the merge and the current version, so it appears that most of it has been fixed. nihlus kryik (talk) 01:35, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) After reviewing the situation at hand and what transpired (and more importantly: what didn't transpire), I'm a little taken aback that an admin would conduct themselves in such a manner. Where was the communication in any of this? I can't seem to find any on the OP's Talk Page, a request on the article's Talk Page itself, etc. WP:CIVIL alone would warrant courtesy in the form of communication. Editing, removing info / references are one thing; completely deleting an entire article that is far more in-depth and referenced to substitute your own article is bad form. When a page goes "live", if it is not in keeping with WP standards, it can be placed up for speedy deletion; or an AfD if a discussion / consensus needs to be taken into consideration. This doesn't seem the case. nihlus kryik could you please reference where in WP policy it says blanking an entire live page and substituting your own (regardless of who owns articles) is considered proper protocol? I find it difficult to believe that even if the admin had started an article a few days before the OP, it gives them the right to carry this action out. If anything they should have merged their content; or edited to better the current article now live. IMHO Maineartists (talk) 02:59, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

At no point did I say the actions of GiantSnowman were appropriate. My initial sentence was to point out the WP:OWN-ish type comment that Nelly had made. nihlus kryik (talk) 03:04, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

@Nihlus Kryik: Sorry, yes I should of been more clearer. I was indeed referring to the actual blanking/removal of facts and citations/references for the whole article I had created.--Nelly GTFC (talk) 03:23, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Nelly GTFC It was clear; and so is the situation. No need for further explanation or apologies. Maineartists (talk) 04:21, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

• @Nelly GTFC: Just to be clear, the "deletion" was strictly technical and Snowman should not be viewed as someone who's acting as an administrator, but as a fellow editor who has rewritten an article. I understand that you put work into an article only to have it replaced by a short stub, without explanation. You were completely within your rights to restore the content that was removed. However, just a thing to keep in mind, GiantSnowman was also within his rights to replace the content of an article in the first place. To do so without any explanation is not particularly helpful and significant unexplained removals are usually reverted. However, per WP:AGF, you should've assumed that he had a reason for doing so and initiated a discussion with him, at least to explain why you reverted him. I note that you still have not done that. @Nihlus Kryik: See WP:5P3, WP:BOLD and WP:BRD for "proper editing protocol". Swarm ♠ 05:46, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

That makes two people who failed to understand my comment (especially because Swarm restated exactly what I said about who has "permission" to edit. I fully understand this WP protocol which is why I said making sure it aligns with Misplaced Pages policy. I then stated his actions did not fully align with policy/protocol. Please stop misstating my words or implying something I am not. nihlus kryik (talk) 05:57, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

@Nihlus Kryik: I'm so sorry. That was meant to be a reply to Maineartists, but for some reason I copy/pasted your username instead of theirs! My mistake; I actually think your input in this thread was helpful and accurate. Swarm ♠ 06:17, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

@Swarm: Okay, ignore my whining then. lol nihlus kryik (talk) 06:28, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

@Swarm: Thank you for the instructions and links to WP protocol for both myself and the OP in this situation. (Which I am more than familiar with ...) Might I ask: what steps you have taken in educating and reminding the admin in this situation of their editing practices via links to WP proper protocol? The weight of responsibility and assumption has greatly been placed on the OP; while the admin seems to remain non-existent to this discussion, OP Talk page (for their initial edit), or anywhere else for that matter. Thanks. Maineartists (talk) 12:46, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Swarm, I know that you've closed this, but it looks as if admin intervention is still needed, as two pages with WP:Parallel histories have been injudiciously histmerged, and that needs to be sorted out, I believe (at the very least, GiantSnowman's "page creation" on 10 August should be removed from the history). I'm also curious to know under what valid criterion the original page was deleted. It was claimed as G6, but that is very clearly and specifically restricted to "uncontroversial maintenance", and deleting an article without warning or reason can hardly be considered uncontroversial. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 14:42, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

I would certainly hope that no-one assumed bad fath and jumped to the conclusion that having created a (possibly worse, in some eyes) page later than another, and then almost immediately notched in up on their UP as their own, then used admin tools to delete the previous page and merge the histories to give what some might perceive as- shall we say- an incomplete story? Because that, of course, would cease to be a content dispute and become potentially a question regarding misuse of admin tools... — fortunavelut luna 14:54, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

(←) There seems to be some sort of confusion over the use of the admin tools here. Contrary to some of the above suggestions, this was a purely technical, temporary deletion, and nothing was lost from the previous version as the history was immediately restored. The resulting situation was literally no different than if GS had simply copied and pasted his draft over to the new article without explanation (although history merges are actually preferable to copy-paste merges). Is that a good idea on his part? Well, I think most people would say "no" and revert him. Was he allowed to do it? Absolutely. I will repeat: this was not a "judicious" use of the admin tools. It was purely technical. I say that based on the fact that it was logged as technical, and it didn't affect the content beyond anything any non-admin could have done with a single edit. Anything beyond that, such as hinting at a nefarious motive, is a bad faith accusation. The root of this is that GS blanked content and replaced it with his own stub. That is a content issue. The technical deletion involved was immediately overturned, therefore he didn't actually delete anything. It was the content replacement, and not the use of the admin tools, that caused the problem. I fully understand the frustration with GiantSnowman, and you're encouraged to take that to his talk page. He has already been reverted, if you wish to demand answers, feel free. However I will not allow a content dispute to be falsely turned into a witch hunt over a procedural admin action that caused no damage. Swarm ♠ 18:04, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

@Swarm: you are not correct here: "The resulting situation was literally no different than if GS had simply copied and pasted his draft over to the new article without explanation (although history merges are actually preferable to copy-paste merges)." The resulting situation is now that the page history claims that GiansSnowman created the page on the 10th, and that Nelly GTFC then edited it on the 13th and beyond. This is an action only an admin could have done, no one else, and is a (perhaps minor) misuse of admin tools, like Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi sarcastically but spot-on says above. Closing this section without even hearing GiantSnowman's explanation, and without correcting the page history, is not the best solution. This is not a "a content dispute" (or not solely one), this is about what admins may or may not do, and about using their tools for their own benefit in a way no non-admin can do (or undo for that matter). Fram (talk) 07:55, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Heads up: Named (but not outed) editors in Breitbart piece on WP edits surrounding the Google Memo

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Pinging those named: @Nanite:, @Jytdog:, @Aquillion:, @Volunteer Marek:, @NorthBySouthBaranof:.

No apparent outing, but learning the lesson from the Daily Mail issue, it makes to alert those that may see outside attacks for their editing activity. --MASEM (t) 01:57, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Interesting that the writer of the article is the banned editor User:The Devil's Advocate, but "Due to previous witch-hunts led by mainstream Wikipedians against their critics, Adler writes under an alias." It's not clear if that note means he writes for Breitbart under an alias (which he clearly does) or if he writes for Misplaced Pages under an alias, i.e. a block-evading sockpuppet. Anyone familiar with TDA's editing might look around for a likely suspect. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:56, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

It just means that "T. D. Adler" (the author name in the Breitbart article) is an alias, not a real name. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 04:43, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

That could be, but if I'm remembering TDA's editing correctly (and I could be mistaken), I think he's the type of person who would want to come back and mix it up some more. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:56, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

If TDA is socking, let's assume he's smart enough not to tell Breitbart and, even if he did, that Breitbart is smart enough not to tell the world. If you're just making a general "look out for possible socking" announcement, that isn't what your comment says and, well, you know what we think about such comments. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:04, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

No, actually, I don't, because a comment that cast an aspersion -- which is the kind of comment some editors look down on, instead of taking them as the possibly justified suspicions of people who have been around the block a time or two -- are those which say "I think so-and-so may be a sockpuppet" or "Such-and-such editor is certainly acting all ducky!". A comment which says: "Hey it's possible that this banned editor might be socking, so be on the lookout, folks!" casts no aspersions, because it names no names, merely makes a reasonable suggestion. As for TDA's intelligence, I make no assumptions about it one way or the other, but given that the article was a mass of misrepresentations, mistruths, and misreporting, it would seem that TDA's concept of "reality" is somewhat contingent on his political biases. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:54, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

It is not even an accurate description of what happened, but hey it is breitbart. not reality-based. Jytdog (talk) 05:33, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Sure, if you want accuracy, better go to Fox News. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:58, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Interesting! Hey Jytdog, I think this is the (at least) second time you´re on Breitbart? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:05, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Pull the String! Jytdog (talk) 07:56, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

So strange to be mentioned! By the way, there was earlier another article (in Vice Motherboard) about the edit war on Neuroticism article, with less naming of users. I hope no wikipedian is getting trouble because of this attention. (Regarding the content of the breitbart article, I am inclined to agree that the reliable sourcing requirements can lead to bias, especially on articles related to the culture war. However, I can't think of any superior alternatives that wouldn't compromise the rest of the wiki.) --Nanite (talk) 08:21, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

That the only place which could be arsed to publish this twaddle is a white nationalist rag one step removed from Daily Stormer is all which needs to be said. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 22:22, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

The gravedancing on TDA's userpage is very distasteful. There is no policy which says that banned people's userpages should be blanked. Please leave the userpage alone, or some kind admin can full-protect it. It is extremely unseemly to mess with the userpage of some person who can't respond. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 13:35, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Two quick thoughts -- I had my disagreements with Mr. Advocate, but I quite agree with Kingsindian about the userpage. No good can come of that. Secondly, I would heartily endorse something like a parol evidence rule for Misplaced Pages: that is, we don't use extrinsic evidence. If there is indeed sockpuppetry occurring, I have faith it will out in time. To go chasing rabbits based on other websites is a path that leads to madness, I should think. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 13:41, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Utterly agree. On a scale of 1 to 1000, for "who would you have back here?", TDA ranks about minus a miilion for me. But this sort of stuff is, indeed, unseemly. -- Begoon 13:58, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Looks like page is fully protected, which is fine, the grave dancing needs to stop. However policy says that a ban notice linking to the decision should be on both the user page and user talk page (See WP:BANPOL, section "User pages".) Can an admin add the appropriate banned notices? — Strongjam (talk) 14:02, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

"Distasteful" and "unseemly" my Great Aunt Fanny. A banned editor is persona non grata, and blanking of their user page should be an absolutely normal consequence of being banned. If the ban is ever lifted, the page can be restored, that's why we have page histories. Beyond My Ken (talk) 14:11, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

I also find the blanking to be distasteful and contrary to the usual practice (cf. ban procedure), and I would like to see the page restored (with the requisite {{banned user}} tag. Per BRD, until consensus is established for blanking, it ought to be reverted to the stable version. Rebbing 14:21, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

As the protecting administrator, I'm happy for any other admin to revert to the unblanked version of the user page. To do so and protect the page doesn't overly sit well with me, so I'll pass on doing it myself -- There'sNoTime 14:26, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

I've reverted and added {{banned user}} to both user and talk pages. GoldenRing (talk) 14:28, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

What's odd is that there is a banner user template on the page, but it's not showing for whatever reason. RickinBaltimore (talk) 14:31, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

I thought that odd. Checking the docs for {{banned user}} shows it suppresses the noticed for arbcom banned user. No idea the reasoning for that. I thought the reason for the notice was to make it plan to anyone who wanted to discuss that users edits with them that the user could not respond. — Strongjam (talk) 14:37, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Yes, the template doesn't display if the 'by' parameter is 'the Arbitration Committee'. I'll try to find out why. GoldenRing (talk) 14:49, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

For the record, that's on purpose, in the hopes of avoiding "badge of shame" behavior. Opabinia regalis (talk) 05:47, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

The MfD page for all of you who want to contest the deletion (and anyone who might agree as well), is here. I don't plan to make any argumentation beyond the deletion proposal itself. Beyond My Ken (talk) 16:00, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

{{mfd}} added per your request. 28bytes (talk) 17:34, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Thank you, although I see that I'm hugely in the minority. If that trend continues for another day or so, I'll probably withdraw the MfD, if someone hasn't already SNOW closed it. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:30, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

The article is really awful, and presents an ideologically skewed view of what occurred. To be fair to Breitbart they do mention at the bottom that TDA was in personal disputes with a number of other actors here, but a reputable news site would have realised that is a good enough reason for him not to write the article, and had someone with some distance write it using TDA as a dial-a-quote. That being said, what sort of stuff Breitbart publishes isn't really an administrative matter for us. There doesn't seem to be any real evidence as far as I can see that TDA is socking, and we ought to leave that there. Lankiveil 01:44, 16 August 2017 (UTC).

My concern in bringing it here was nothing related to TDA (I didn't even make the connection until this thread), but that there potentially could be off-site attacks on the named editors in that article, given what happened when we banned the Daily Mail (driving one editor named and outed by the DM) into retirement. --MASEM (t) 05:52, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Indeed, and that's a valid concern, I just think we got a little sidetracked above. Lankiveil 06:46, 16 August 2017 (UTC).

Proposal

The entire point of the Breitbart piece (and the Motherboard piece) is that substantial edits have occurred to the article. I suggest that the template identifying press coverage should have a parameter reflecting the state of the article both at the time of the media article and just prior to the edit war. I made such a proposal on the template talk page and invite anyone who has opinions to weigh in at the template talk page --S Philbrick(Talk) 17:44, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Cristo39 and WP:NOTFORUM

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Cristo39 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I'm not even sure this belongs here since it's not that big of a deal, but Cristo39 made this comment on Talk:White pride, which I reverted since it was not aimed at improving the article (per WP:NOTFORUM). I made my issues known in the edit summaries and also a notice to the user. I don't feel like dealing with an edit war, so can someone intervene since it appears this user is not here to help. Thanks. nihlus kryik (talk) 07:39, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Just noting that Cristo hadn't edited for about 6 years, then comes back only to push his view on a talk page in an area they hadn't edited before. Doug Weller talk 08:01, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Doug beat me to it EvergreenFir (talk) 08:04, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

"Push his view". Look at all the requests for edits. There's a picture making the rounds on social media making Misplaced Pages a laughingstock for unbalanced views. Since you all seem to be admins and spend your lives on here, you guys are probably more fit to realize there's a bit of a problem. Chop chop, get to work. Cristo39 (talk) 08:22, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

John McGowan article recreations

An article titled John McGowan (Canadian rock singer) has been created by User:Timmytimah (talk). I thought the name sounded familiar, and sure enough the article has been deleted multiple times over the past few months (example, John McGowan (singer). I am not the best at navigating the deletion log, but I am sure that more variants of this page have been created. Salting one or two articles does not seem to have stopped the spam, so I request further action be taken. SamHolt6 (talk) 16:16, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Yep, I nominated at least one for CSD, and just did so to the most recent iteration. Sock-puppetry and willful ignorance of notability rules. ‡ Єl Cid of ᐺalencia 16:19, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

I just called out one of the sockpuppets myself ♠Dinah♠ 🎤 16:24, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Tagged and blocked, thanks guys. Alex Shih 16:25, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Vandalism: TV station articles

User 98.22.136.242 keeps vandalizing articles on TV stations by adding incorrect information about digital subchannels. I undo them, but more of these edits pop up. Recent example KMSP-TV: Mvcg66b3r (talk) 17:02, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

98.22.136.242 just undid one of my edits. KOCO-TV: And another one, caught by Mrschimpf at KQCW-DT: Mvcg66b3r (talk) 21:26, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

(Non-Administrator comment) You may wish to try AIV- Administrator Intervention against Vandalism. Jip Orlando (talk) 23:51, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

I tried that, I was declined. They told me to go here. Mvcg66b3r (talk) 00:00, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

It's not really obvious to me what's going on here. I don't know anything about Oklahoma television stations, and the content isn't sourced. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 00:33, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

98.22.136.242 keeps adding information about "new" subchannels, despite no official confirmation from the station. Mvcg66b3r (talk) 00:49, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

He's at it again: KSBI: KCEB (Tulsa): Mvcg66b3r (talk) 02:10, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

AIV report done after their newest edits; 31h block applied. We can close this up now. Nate • (chatter) 04:45, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Edit-warring at AIV

There is some edit warring going on at AIV. The main people include User:Adam9007, User:kjelltyrid, and User:Coldandspicy. I just want to notify anybody, and I don't want to get involved in this dispute, but somebody should take a look at it. RileyBugz_投稿記録 00:44, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

I pretty much explained the situation in a nutshell, here. 2601:1C0:10B:7D6D:19FC:80A1:3B49:6D26 (talk) 00:57, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Oshwah just blocked User:Kjelltyrid for 36 hours. As for the other users reverting at WP:AIV, I don't know what'll happen with that... 2601:1C0:10B:7D6D:19FC:80A1:3B49:6D26 (talk) 00:59, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

The issue began when Kjelltyrid filed an AIV report against Adam9007 for "aggressive vandalism on Henrik Steffens Professor with insertion of a blatantly false claim about the article being a duplicate when it's clearly not." This was in response to a CSD tag that Adam9007 added restored to Henrik Steffens Professor (an article the user started and was expanding) after it was originally added by Ukpong1 and then removed by Kjelltyrid. Both Adam9007 and Coldandspicy were removing the AIV report that Kjelltyrid added, and were attempting to add their own AIV reports against Kjelltyrid as well. In the end, I found that Kjelltyrid repeatedly removed Adam9007's CSD tag on the article and was also edit warring in a disruptive fashion (both on the article and at AIV), and I blocked the user for 36 hours for disruptive editing.

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